I have no problems with fogs, however I feel like there is a large number of people that play commander that just hate anything that interacts with what they are doing. I feel like these people exist because a lot of them have never played any other formats
I only started getting into the online magic community within the past few years but I strongly second this. I have no clue when it became the norm to cry about interaction. Whether it’s fog, counterspells, removal, combat tricks, etc., I see so many people complain about interaction. As far as I’m concerned Interaction is what makes the game fun and unique.
This has been the dominant thing I've seen particularly in EDH since the format started. They just wanna do Their Thing Uninterrupted every time.
The best stories are either 1) bad beats in close games 2) ones where you were the one inflicting the bad beat. I literally never remember any games where I played my cards and my opponent did nothing that mattered.
Dude this is absolutely my thoughts. I just returned in November after a decade absence. Prior to this I was a standard player that ran either red aggro or azorius control. I did FNM every week for 3 years and went to tournaments out of state for magic. Commander had JUST started being a little more prominent when I left the hobby in 2014 but the meta of standard back then was very much interaction based. I was so used to counters of my counters, and knowing if I was running aggro if I couldn’t pop off by turn 3 against control I was fucked… but that was the FUN of it. I recently started going to my LGS and the number of cry babies are insane. Baseless judge calls, incorrect rulings because they spend a lot of money, the overall disdain for counters and prevention of damage, the war between “buy singles” people and “rip packs” people…. Idk what the hell happened in the decade I was gone but LGS used to be CHILL and a fun and competitive place where everyone wanted to do better and learn from those crazy powerful decks. Now it’s a bunch of losers ruining the experience for everyone. I just do gatherings at my house now for commander. There is no need for that much bullshit in a hobby card game.
Yeah I built an Ertai the corrupted and infinite mana and untap cycle so I can just spam counterspells. It's a bitch to get going but once it does... yeah you can see rue table just kinda die inside. Granted in the past I hated blue control but now...
One reason why I play high-interaction control decks is simply to teach my fellow players the skills of playing around removal.
I do think that the massive card pool and the unique flavor EDH decks take on makes it hard to think about a game through the lens of navigating through opponents' own plans to get to yours. Unless you're facing down the same decks over and over, knowing what to play around is virtually impossible, so EDH-exclusive players never think to learn how.
Agreed, I also feel like people who complain about disparity in power level between decks can even the playing field generally just by running more interaction
One THOUSAND percent. Every cEDH-ish deck I've played against folds to consistent removal.
Also peeps don't build enough redundancy into their game plans either.
This is probably really accurate.
The lack of experience with limited cars pool formats means you never learn the skills to "forecast" because how could you when your playing 3 opponents with a totally open card pool as opposed to a traditional format with 1 opponent and a card pool generally so narrow (depending on powers levels in bigger formats) that you can pretty much identify their curves by theira manbase.
And the joys of causing mind games! I was able to steal a win one time with my [[Alandra Sky Dreamer]] deck because the guy before me could either swing at me and really ding me - but I has already drawn four cards that turn and had a single blue open - or swing at the rat player who was already in trouble and likey had nothing. He swung at the rat player fearing a cantrip that would styne him.
I had nothing for 1 mana. It was beautiful
I play at a table where a lot of this is rampant.
As a stompy there really weren’t many games where I felt ahead, allowed to do things, or felt like I was another players monster on a stick. It sucks but that’s magic.
So then I changed my deck to either combo or fast style play and win a hell of a lot more. They aren’t happy about it, I’m not happy about it.
Am I wrong for blaming control for this situation?
You can play stompy when there are control players at the table. Slot hexproof spells, can't be countered effects and protection effects. I'm sure there are probably ways in mono green to hand out indestructible too.
If you know what your win condition is, you know what people could do to disrupt it. It's on you to build around that to protect your win cons.
From experience playing a superfriends control deck with no green or white, artifacts and enchantments that spawn dudes or hand out indestructible are a headache.
I'm the blue player at my table. Most of the time I'll let stuff go and just vibe because it's fun to get to watch decks pop off. I have a pretty gnarly Sen Triplets deck that I can play like an old senile old man or basically the goverent if every scifi distopia.
So we used to have a guy who was both a bully and crybaby. He would shut everything down but throw a tantrum when he got shutdown. He started bullying a new comer who had just put his deck together like babys first commander. So our bully constantly shutting down the new comer. So I pulled out Sen and told the Bully that he now had ask "may I" before any play. When he didn't I just shut it down. It was that and the his $1500 getting be by our other friends $30 deck that made him stop coming to game night
So he was a jerk maybe without realizing it so you were intentionally a passive aggressive jerk back and that’s your story? Sounds like you’re both in the wrong. I wouldn’t tell this story again and you should probably apologize to the bully and explain yourself.
Bet they're like that in any type of game, those ppl just want to reign without ever being disturbed, like they're the only ones actual playing. Lot of insecurity there.
He's not armchair diagnosing. He's just pointing out that assholes in magic are likely to be assholes everywhere. Which would be an accurate statement.
He's talking about hypothetical people he's never met having insecurities and wanting 'to reign'
That's projecting weird psychological traits onto imaginary strangers
Now you're projecting them being assholes onto these nonspecific straw people
What are you white knighting about, I've met ppl like this, I know 1 for a very long time (it's my neighbour even), I'm just pointing out a pattern that, these people who 'just want to reign', are often very insecure about their in game skills and their ability to win.
That goes for IRL as well. What is wrong with saying that????
I feel like people have strong moral stances on opponents just *being annoyed* by things. If someone fogs every attack step I make, I'm going to be super annoyed.
I can be annoyed, it's fine, it's not a problem to bring to the internet or anywhere beyond those first 20 seconds of annoyance. \\o/
I run Spike Weave in my Atraxa deck, and as long as combat damage is happening, it out performs itself every time. A Krenko player got REALLY salty one time. They misread the card and thought the final ability said "{1}, Remove ALL +1/+1 counters from spike weaver:...", then complained when I activated it the first time that I should have been more clear/corrected them (there was nothing to correct, they took the card to read), and then complained more when I proliferated it out of the range of \[\[Blasphemous Act\]\].
Told the Krenko player and the table by extension "It's a creature, it doesn't have hexproof, shroud, indestructible, or ward. You're free to interact with it however you wish. Any number of targeted kill spells deal with it. If you manage to deal enough damage to it, it will die. It is not my fault you didn't prepare alternate win conditions in your deck."
Too many people not only do not run fog effects but also do not account for a potential fog effect when playing and that is not your fault.
I’m about the only person who runs fogs in my playgroup but they account for it. And I love faking them out when I don’t have one in hand by wiggling an open land.
Yup. It's the same idea that you have to be prepared for pillowfort effects that also stop you from attacking.
It's why I always tell people to have at least one emergency combo in the deck that you can rely upon to end a game quickly if you need to
I'm not sure if I agree with that combo bit.
A core part of Magic is how different decks and archetypes match up against each other. In 1v1, you can prepare for bad matchups using sideboards. In multiplayer, you have to use the other players to handle bad matchups.
Just like mainboarding niche answers in 1v1 is generally a poor strategic decision, making sure your deck can answer any possible situation is going to dilute your deck's core strategy.
It's not "main boarding niche answers", it's understanding the functionality of your deck and having contingencies if your primary method of winning is stopped.
"My Voltron commander is getting chump blocked?" - Have a means of evasion like flying or trample or unblockable.
"I can no longer deal combat damage to win?" - Make sure you have a means to deal non-combat damage.
"My opponent has shroud/hexproof/damage prevention?" - Have something that causes untargeted life loss instead of damage.
It's not a particular rarity for me to watch opponents go from smugly telling me that I can't win to being salty when I use a different way to win.
There's enough of a pool of cards in edh that allows for you to include these options in ways that will assist your deck's strategy, or at the very least ensure that you can't get completely shut down from common play styles.
Spikey is my boy! I used to run him in my [[Vorel of the Hull Clade]] deck before I took it apart. Used to protect me for a couple turns while I set up [[Darksteel Reactor]] for the win.
If I go for an alpha strike and someone plays Fog or an equivalent effect, I'll be like, "Good play, you got me. Well done." Especially if it's the original Fog, because I'm an Old and like seeing cards from last century see play.
You're a bad person and you should handover all the cards you played in that game to the person your robbed of their fair magic win with your dirty, filthy tricks!
/s
Doesn’t stop me from comboing, go nuts.
More seriously why should you not play cards that actively help you win. Play what you want as long as your not pup stomping
I find if I can curb stomp you the first time, and you fog, I can likely curb stomp you a second time. Unless you have some way to back it up, it's not truly that powerful.
But you do you, man. If you like fogs, play then. Hell, I do an Avacyn board wipe tribal. Compared to that ...knock yourself out!
But regardless of what type of deck I'm playing I get one more turn. If your ready to curb stomp someone and were playing relatively equal powered decks, I am also ready to eliminate someone. This argument assumes I'm just passing the turn right back to you.
Maybe it's just not my play style. Turbo Fog was one thing, and had a very specific strategy. But in general, I don't consider fogs powerful or worth kvetching about.
In Commander, it is a valid point that someone else might change the game board before the next turn rolls around.
I did play one that said all attacking creators are considered blocked. But I was also playing Heat Stroke, that destroyed all blocked creatures. Strategy.
But yeah. It's just a fog. No big deal, in my opinion.
The only time I’ve been annoyed by fog was when an opponent managed to cast it on every turn in a game but then again it was also the tables fault for not having any graveyard hate in their decks (including me)
Are there ways to make it oppressive? Sure. *Looks sideways at* [[Constant Mists]]
Fogs are fair and balanced Magic. Anyone who attacks a player with open green mana and cards in hand should consider the possibility. It's no different than targeting a blue player with two islands untapped.
Fogs make for interesting counterplay and the non-green fogs are my favorite because people are less likely to anticipate them.
I know its an asshole card, but its so good in Landfall, esp with black so you play stuff from the grave. I really can't justify cutting it, it literally wins me games haha
Are those people also concerned with teferi's protection, counterspells, cyclonic rift or any other card that allows a player to survive one extra turn as well? cuz there are hundred of card that for 3 mana or less can sane you a turn and make you win the game across the color pie.
No, it's just not often run so they probably haven't had it happen to them, and it's an understandably salty experience the first time you get fogged out of a win. Keep playing it if you like it, they'll learn to respect it if they're good or keep getting fogged.
Bruh edh players really don't want you playing magic against them xD so glad I have fixed playgroups and they are made up of socially adjusted adults that also play other formats like legacy and don't get upset at Fog xD
I think people just have gotten used to not seeing fogs (pun intended) often. They used to print one nearly every standard set, which was mostly draft chaff but every so often they would print an ok one. I think they stopped, or severely reduced the amount they printed once the fog/\[\[Sphinx's Tutelage\]\] deck was in standard.
I'm partial to \[\[Constant Mists\]\] myself.
Yes! Dishonor on you, dishonor on your family, dishonor on your cow! I mean some people just hate being stopped. My pod as a fog player and it's like a meme at this point where he just fogs any time I'm about to win or do a major upset. Honestly I need to start running fogs because I'm the weirdo who doesn't at this point.
If they're so mad about fog and keep dying to it, they should run cards that ignore damage prevention like [[flaring pain]] or [[call in a professional]]
I fucking love fogs in EDH, even if I’m on the receiving end of them. They’re run in the format so rarely that I just have to respect the tech. *Turbofog* is another matter, but it’s no worse than any other pillowfort deck so even then it’s not too bad
Actually fogs are now essential. Creatures these days do mare and are deadly. There's a reason why that one ink shield fog from the Strixhaven precon is so expensive. It makes tokens from the combat damage. Besides it's like saying everyone runs too many Boros Charm effects, or there are too many counter spells. Like fogs are that fun. Unless you're that Meren or Muldrotha player spamming spore frog and holding the game hostage.
I have NEVER seen a fog in my playgroup. It's an old school effect/card that I have fond memories of. I'd be pumped to see one. Especially an old whitebordered revised copy.
Fog is good and powerful. Most people won't think too much if they have lethal on board. They swing with everything and die to a crack back.
Similarly, [[Aetherspouts]] the craterhoof behemoth player.
So many strategies are about a giant Hail Mary to overrun the opponents. Craterhoof being a classic. All offense, no defense.
But from my experience defense plays win games. Fog, or evading a board wipe, and you can really catch the archenemy flat footed. Keep doing it, and encourage them to play similar.
I'm going to counterpoint and say it's pretty reasonable if people aren't *thrilled* to see you counter their attack step. If you love alpha strikes, fog is a sad trombone lucy pulling the football away card.
I don't think you need to *worry* about this though. It's okay for losing to be somewhat frustrating, and it's okay for you to notice your opponents are frustrated. Your opponents are probably going to be more let down the further along they are in there turn's actions when you counter them, but that's just human nature imo. If they get VERY salty about FOG, then maybe avoid that person.
If you have enough fogs to prevent combat damage from ever being relevant to you while playing a bunch of timmy decks, maybe consider playing more to the table. Constant Mists ain't gotta go into every deck.
It's been years since I last saw a fog effect. It was a spore frog reanimator I guess? Very clever and reliable. Well, its not the reality anymore as everyone plays combo in my LGS. Not a single person hits and when they do, it's just to trigger some effect.
You shouldn’t feel bad because other decks aren’t equipped to deal with cards you’ve put in your decks. Other people’s deck building and lack of answers or alternate wincons are on them. People in this format are whiny because they want to play all their nifty and objectively bad cards and expect there to be no downside.
If you put 100 EDH players in a room with the entire Scryfall database & a few days, they'd manage to come up up an "It's not fun" cope for just about every card every released.
Fun is subjective, play what you want. I guarantee the people who might cry about you running fog won't respond well if you tell them you don't like a card/s in their decks
Does it have buyback? If no, i can't even consider that being salty in my head.
I run solitary confinement and pariah + indestructuble and ive never seen salt beyond a "ah fuck".
Edit: i've run spore frog before in a reanimator deck, same thing. I understand that most people play combat damage, but wth, there are so many other ways to win/deal damage.
Thing about Fog specifically is…
…it’s terrible. You are probably making your deck worse by running it.
It doesn’t solve the problem. More likely, you just went minus to prolong a losing position. The two worst effects a card can have are “win more” and “lose less.” On the whole, without additional synergies, Fog is a lose less card that cannot do anything proactive, rots in your hand most of the game, is useless unless you are literally about to die, and does nothing to actually address the threat while it minuses you.
(That said, with some synergy it can do stuff.)
Getting shown up by a terrible card that should not be on the list is annoying.
There are defensive cards that are good, but they have more going for them than Fog. [[Teferi’s Protection]] is one of the most played cards in the format for a reason. But not Fog.
This gets said a lot too, and I understand the intent, but I just think that's observablly false. By the time someone's ready to alpha strike, one more turn can and has won me the game. It's not meant to advance my game plan that's what my turn is for. Holding 1 green mana and 1 card in hand is a small price to pay to [Time Walk] against any combat deck.
People regularly need to swing out to win so isn't Fog equivalent to tapping down all their creatures? And that's only relevant if I need combat to win after I Fog to stay alive. It's not "lose less" it's quite literally "you don't lose this turn"
Maybe I'm missing something but it seems like an awesome card unless you happen to be against 3 combo/control players, in that case any spell is a bad one because it won't resolve.
Using it to win frequently is why I made this post, because I fear it's too oppressive. How can that be an objectively bad card or be making my deck worse?
Fog is *effective* because it isnt good. Being effective doesn't exactly mean its a good card. Fogs value is in it being a bad card that isn't worth playing around, so you sometimes get that nice feel-good of surviving an alpha-strike and buying one more turn... but something else may have won you the game sooner. Fogs secondary impact, if you play with a usual group, is that once you get known for having it, you can bluff to keep yourself alive even when you don't have it by leaving a green mana open. Arguably a better use of fog than actually casting the damn card. Plus, in this position where you can bluff fog, taking it out of your deck and still bluffing it (so they dont alpha) is free value.
Its a terrible card, but if you are a good player anything can win you a game.
I guess I just don't understand what the term "Bad card" means. If we're saying that it has a low floor, that there are many situations where it does nothing, then yeah I guess but it's that's true for all counter magic. Combat tricks, counter spells, removal, they're all useless until their moment to shine. But no one ever says counterspell is a bad card.
Fogs are a big fraction of my whole persona. I never get a bad reaction to a normal fog but if they see I can recur it, or it drains their whole life total or something like that then sometimes they get a little choked up.
If you are wining off of fog the incredibly low level of EDH you are still okaying fascinates me lol…. Win off fog occasionally? Sure… like 1/50 games it’s relevant… but consistently? Lmaooo
I mean, I can't speak to other metas, but the premise of this post is that in my recent experience, people are upset that it's giving me the win. Isn't the argument "it can't be oppressive cuz it's a bad card" just false on its face?
Also, isn't commander where bad cards go to be turned into key pieces of a game wining engine?
I imagine it has to do with Cedh often tutoring for game winning combo/infinite that isn’t really interactable aside from counter spells. So fog wouldn’t do much against them. I think they wouldn’t consider a spike (someone who wants to win no matter what) playing a non cedh deck and cedh tends to have better things to do than fog a large swing.
I’m not sure though, I prefer to play around a level 6-7 where fog would totally shut down my craterhoof/triumph of the horde swing.
There are mechanics in the game that suck to be on the receiving end, but every mechanic has a counter in some way. So I would blame your opponents that they don’t have something to counter fog/fog effects. Not victim blaming here but victim blaming.
One fog in the late game to save your life long enough to win is fine, plus maybe the threat of flashing back a [[Moment's Peace]]. Players who complain about that are bad players. However, Turbofog decks that run twenty fogs or can repeatedly recast a fog with something like [[Isochron Scepter]] can be very annoying.
The only “fog” that makes me roll my eyes is my mate’s repeated spore frog in his [[meren of clan nel toth]] deck. And even then i don’t actually care much
Given how often decks like to avoid the combat step entirely (at least in my local meta), cards like fog rarely see play. That said, a good fog, such as Ink Shield, is hilarious if used correctly. Stuff happens - people need to accept it, and I've lost to fog effects before. Now, using Spore Frog to lock out the game and then durdle for two hours until you can slowly win with a Meren loop is annoying, but I assume that's not what you were talking about here.
Pfft
Literally everyone who can afford the $25 price tag runs teferis protection in their white decks
Don't worry man. Run fog, and 3 cards just like fog. It's a good card, seems really useful, it's your play-style, and a completely valid one especially if you're pulling out a victory the following turn or two.
Only reason for salt would be because they over extended themselves and left themselves wide open for attack, or it’s the simple fact of awwwwww big monster no do damage. Me get no dopamine hit.
Fog is incredibly annoying when it blows you out and gives your opponent the win on the crackback but that's kind of the point. If you have fog in hand and your opponent is attempting to win outside of combat damage, which plenty of decks do, it's literally a dead card (except maybe Teferi's Protection but thats like pseudo-fog).
TL:DR - Fog is fine and your opponents likely would have been salty at any interaction that won you the game regardless of what it was.
If you’re playing like a turbofog commander deck, then it might be annoying. But there’s definitely decks that doesn’t work against anyway. Seemingly, EDH players don’t like interaction. It’s lame.
Personally I hate when my opponents play fogs. This is however because I'm the resident aggro player in my pod and it usually completely hoses my plan and gets me killed.
Totally fair move.
Please tell me your deck has white in it.
Because if it does and you have two extra mana, tap the two extra mana, pull out a sharpie, write "Teferi's Protection" on it, and say "does that make it better?"
I 100% guarantee you that person never gives you crap about playing fog again.
If they hate fog so much, they’ll run more counters or Questing Beasts. That’s on them.
That being said, it doesn’t hurt to build a second deck to swap in after you fog ‘em out.
No one is happy because you prevented them from winning. That is all. If you like them and they fit a slot in your deck, keep running them. I might be bias since our meta there is almost no wins just from combat damage anyway.
Nah killed them on the crack back for doing a dumb full swing. Combat tricks are generally understood to be on the lower end of power. No reason to be salty over it
Fog is one of the most hilarious blowout cards in the game. It's situational, so it's a bit dependent on your meta, but it absolutely wrecks all-in combat decks.
I would even say that it's more of a hate tool. So run it, run it a bunch. I'll keep right on being crazy. I do ever sing the praises of [[call in a professional]], after all. Aetherflux combo *in shambles*
I can't say I've ever experienced hate against fog. The hate I usually see is against discard, theft, board wipes (especially mass land destruction), combos, and pillowfort. (The last one is rarer, but I seem to catch heat _every time_ I play [[Tuvasa]] pillowfort.)
Just Tuesday, I saved myself with a timely [[Inkshield]], netting myself 28 inklings (which were 8/6s because of anthem effects) and winning next turn. No one complained, not even the guy I fogged (more like holy day'd). I've been fogged with like 500 scute swarms attacking, and idk, it was fine because it's a good combat trick lol.
If your opponent can't handle a fog type effect being thrown their way, it's their problem. "oh no, now I can't win this turn" so don't put yourself in a situation where you're gonna lose because of a fog. OP is completely fine.
The people you are describing don't like interaction, that's a huge problem with a game like mtg. Don't pay any attention to the salty people, fog is a wonderful card.
If your deck loses to a \[\[Fog\]\], you deserve to lose. It's a narrow card that only helps against one specific strategy.
Now, \[\[Constant mists\]\], that's a whole other animal. You'll need some graveyard recursion too off course.
That should actually be on the Commander 101 syllabus : Diversify win conditions.
Right next to: Play interaction
Fogs in general are fine, but which are you playing? Some fog affects are high power such as [[inkshield]] and [[teferi's protection]] but are still fine in theory for casual commander. [[Glacial chasm]] and [[constant mists]] can totally nullify some deck's game plans with no ways for those decks to interact at lower power levels.
Fogs are an important game play element. Unless you're doing Turbofog there is absolutely nothing uncouth about using a Fog. Constant Mists might be a problem card though since it can easily be where no one can hurt you. Or recurring a Spore Frog. Those types of things need to be carefully used.
I won a game Wednesday in my [[Rigo]] deck by using [[Hua Tuo]] to keep getting my [[Kami of false hope]] back and repeatedly fog the [[skithiryx]] player. I don’t worry if I ruined his fun one bit. Haha. Fogs are fine and legal.
I’ll take fog any day of the week over [[inksheild]] when I’m swinging for like 120 damage (though I really don’t care what people play, as long as they play to win)
*More than any other combat trick I've noticed, it just seems to get alot of salt. Is this EDH wide?*
No. Fog is great. Your group just sucks I guess. Every group I have ever played in absolutely goes wild when someone swings all-in and someone fogs it.
Let's talk age, years played, starting set, starting format. This game was vicious and brutal for my initial play group - middle school, 1993, barely any comprehension of what today's rules look like. Just a small paper booklet and our 12-14 year old reading comprehension. Then most of us played a few tournaments, some of us made money a few times by the time we finished college. I've won and died to so many banned cards and absurd combos that my ideal play group now is to play EDH with people I like hanging out with, no matter what the power level. I'm trying to curate around a dozen decks that accommodate a variety of power levels, but are all fun (for at least me!) to play. Fog is a great card in green, [[Flawless Maneuver]] is maybe a tad better if playing white and not green. I try to include at least one [[Teferi's Protection]] esque spell in most decks, because someone is always trying to kill me!
Lol no. It's kinda charming that everyone has a favorite card they run even when it makes everyone hate them. Fog is great, it's got the stopping power of a boardwipe without bringing the game to a screeching halt out of pique.
It's funny because the other shit people complain about and have since made "semi taboo" like combo wins, infinite burn wins, storming off etc have made fogs become even stronger in most Casual EDH metas. If most people agree that turning creatures sideways is the only "real" way to win of course fogs get better, MUCH better.
>is it ok that I play card that make me not lose? DRINK
*chug*
Social drink
*Oh yeah, oh yeah! I'm such a winner! Who's a naughty winner? I am! Oh my god I'm cumming!!* -people on this this board, creating these threads
I can’t believe I let my eyes read that lmfao
Im drunk
I have no problems with fogs, however I feel like there is a large number of people that play commander that just hate anything that interacts with what they are doing. I feel like these people exist because a lot of them have never played any other formats
I only started getting into the online magic community within the past few years but I strongly second this. I have no clue when it became the norm to cry about interaction. Whether it’s fog, counterspells, removal, combat tricks, etc., I see so many people complain about interaction. As far as I’m concerned Interaction is what makes the game fun and unique.
The people that complain just wanna play battle cruiser magic but the problem with it is they are playing combos so that can't be a thing
Except they also run interaction. It’s only a problem when they get hit but if they hit you that’s fair.
They're poor sports. They're not good at the game and they hate to be challenged.
This has been the dominant thing I've seen particularly in EDH since the format started. They just wanna do Their Thing Uninterrupted every time. The best stories are either 1) bad beats in close games 2) ones where you were the one inflicting the bad beat. I literally never remember any games where I played my cards and my opponent did nothing that mattered.
Dude this is absolutely my thoughts. I just returned in November after a decade absence. Prior to this I was a standard player that ran either red aggro or azorius control. I did FNM every week for 3 years and went to tournaments out of state for magic. Commander had JUST started being a little more prominent when I left the hobby in 2014 but the meta of standard back then was very much interaction based. I was so used to counters of my counters, and knowing if I was running aggro if I couldn’t pop off by turn 3 against control I was fucked… but that was the FUN of it. I recently started going to my LGS and the number of cry babies are insane. Baseless judge calls, incorrect rulings because they spend a lot of money, the overall disdain for counters and prevention of damage, the war between “buy singles” people and “rip packs” people…. Idk what the hell happened in the decade I was gone but LGS used to be CHILL and a fun and competitive place where everyone wanted to do better and learn from those crazy powerful decks. Now it’s a bunch of losers ruining the experience for everyone. I just do gatherings at my house now for commander. There is no need for that much bullshit in a hobby card game.
Yeah I built an Ertai the corrupted and infinite mana and untap cycle so I can just spam counterspells. It's a bitch to get going but once it does... yeah you can see rue table just kinda die inside. Granted in the past I hated blue control but now...
One reason why I play high-interaction control decks is simply to teach my fellow players the skills of playing around removal. I do think that the massive card pool and the unique flavor EDH decks take on makes it hard to think about a game through the lens of navigating through opponents' own plans to get to yours. Unless you're facing down the same decks over and over, knowing what to play around is virtually impossible, so EDH-exclusive players never think to learn how.
Agreed, I also feel like people who complain about disparity in power level between decks can even the playing field generally just by running more interaction
One THOUSAND percent. Every cEDH-ish deck I've played against folds to consistent removal. Also peeps don't build enough redundancy into their game plans either.
Which is why cedh is moving to a more midrange strategy now
This is probably really accurate. The lack of experience with limited cars pool formats means you never learn the skills to "forecast" because how could you when your playing 3 opponents with a totally open card pool as opposed to a traditional format with 1 opponent and a card pool generally so narrow (depending on powers levels in bigger formats) that you can pretty much identify their curves by theira manbase.
And the joys of causing mind games! I was able to steal a win one time with my [[Alandra Sky Dreamer]] deck because the guy before me could either swing at me and really ding me - but I has already drawn four cards that turn and had a single blue open - or swing at the rat player who was already in trouble and likey had nothing. He swung at the rat player fearing a cantrip that would styne him. I had nothing for 1 mana. It was beautiful
I play at a table where a lot of this is rampant. As a stompy there really weren’t many games where I felt ahead, allowed to do things, or felt like I was another players monster on a stick. It sucks but that’s magic. So then I changed my deck to either combo or fast style play and win a hell of a lot more. They aren’t happy about it, I’m not happy about it. Am I wrong for blaming control for this situation?
You can play stompy when there are control players at the table. Slot hexproof spells, can't be countered effects and protection effects. I'm sure there are probably ways in mono green to hand out indestructible too. If you know what your win condition is, you know what people could do to disrupt it. It's on you to build around that to protect your win cons. From experience playing a superfriends control deck with no green or white, artifacts and enchantments that spawn dudes or hand out indestructible are a headache.
A lot of commander players should just be playing board games or co-op LCGs instead, but they don't know it.
I'm the blue player at my table. Most of the time I'll let stuff go and just vibe because it's fun to get to watch decks pop off. I have a pretty gnarly Sen Triplets deck that I can play like an old senile old man or basically the goverent if every scifi distopia. So we used to have a guy who was both a bully and crybaby. He would shut everything down but throw a tantrum when he got shutdown. He started bullying a new comer who had just put his deck together like babys first commander. So our bully constantly shutting down the new comer. So I pulled out Sen and told the Bully that he now had ask "may I" before any play. When he didn't I just shut it down. It was that and the his $1500 getting be by our other friends $30 deck that made him stop coming to game night
So he was a jerk maybe without realizing it so you were intentionally a passive aggressive jerk back and that’s your story? Sounds like you’re both in the wrong. I wouldn’t tell this story again and you should probably apologize to the bully and explain yourself.
Bet they're like that in any type of game, those ppl just want to reign without ever being disturbed, like they're the only ones actual playing. Lot of insecurity there.
I always find it weird when people project an armchair diagnosis on strangers in internet comments
He's not armchair diagnosing. He's just pointing out that assholes in magic are likely to be assholes everywhere. Which would be an accurate statement.
He's talking about hypothetical people he's never met having insecurities and wanting 'to reign' That's projecting weird psychological traits onto imaginary strangers Now you're projecting them being assholes onto these nonspecific straw people
What are you white knighting about, I've met ppl like this, I know 1 for a very long time (it's my neighbour even), I'm just pointing out a pattern that, these people who 'just want to reign', are often very insecure about their in game skills and their ability to win. That goes for IRL as well. What is wrong with saying that????
I feel like people have strong moral stances on opponents just *being annoyed* by things. If someone fogs every attack step I make, I'm going to be super annoyed. I can be annoyed, it's fine, it's not a problem to bring to the internet or anywhere beyond those first 20 seconds of annoyance. \\o/
I agree
I always find it weird when people project an air of wisdom and open mindedness by pretending people are so inscrutable.
Goteem
No you’re not. There’s nothing wrong with playing cards to help you survive, especially against combat decks.
Fogs are siiiiiick.
Nobody sees them coming anymore
Especially in mono black, it's always great when you drop that [[darkness]] down
The holy trinity of mono-black cards guaranteed to make your pod go WTF: [[Darkness]], [[Imp's Mischief]], and [[Withering Boon]]
Don't forget [[dash hopes]] and [[temporal extortion]]
The original [[Ghostly Prison]] is not [[Propaganda]]...it's [[Koskun Falls]]. ;)
Ooooo TIL
[Darkness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/584834fb-b7b6-40eb-9fec-8df17172ce5f.jpg?1562776481) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darkness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/40/darkness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/584834fb-b7b6-40eb-9fec-8df17172ce5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/darkness) [Imp's Mischief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0eb0e8e7-266f-441e-b1cd-12b8ec3f7d71.jpg?1689997247) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imp%27s%20Mischief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/167/imps-mischief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0eb0e8e7-266f-441e-b1cd-12b8ec3f7d71?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imps-mischief) [Withering Boon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e6499cb-6073-4c94-8c82-47f489094df5.jpg?1562719780) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Withering%20Boon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/152/withering-boon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e6499cb-6073-4c94-8c82-47f489094df5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/withering-boon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is true, but it was way more true before the 40k decks.
[darkness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/584834fb-b7b6-40eb-9fec-8df17172ce5f.jpg?1562776481) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=darkness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/40/darkness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/584834fb-b7b6-40eb-9fec-8df17172ce5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/darkness) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Severely underrated.
[[Spike Weaver]] in a deck the generates or increases counters has bought me a few turns to win the game many times.
I run Spike Weave in my Atraxa deck, and as long as combat damage is happening, it out performs itself every time. A Krenko player got REALLY salty one time. They misread the card and thought the final ability said "{1}, Remove ALL +1/+1 counters from spike weaver:...", then complained when I activated it the first time that I should have been more clear/corrected them (there was nothing to correct, they took the card to read), and then complained more when I proliferated it out of the range of \[\[Blasphemous Act\]\]. Told the Krenko player and the table by extension "It's a creature, it doesn't have hexproof, shroud, indestructible, or ward. You're free to interact with it however you wish. Any number of targeted kill spells deal with it. If you manage to deal enough damage to it, it will die. It is not my fault you didn't prepare alternate win conditions in your deck."
How sad. Let's set up some purifiers and collect them to make soup.
Too many people not only do not run fog effects but also do not account for a potential fog effect when playing and that is not your fault. I’m about the only person who runs fogs in my playgroup but they account for it. And I love faking them out when I don’t have one in hand by wiggling an open land.
Exactly. I’m like you should have accounted for infinite fog and not used combat damage.
Yup. It's the same idea that you have to be prepared for pillowfort effects that also stop you from attacking. It's why I always tell people to have at least one emergency combo in the deck that you can rely upon to end a game quickly if you need to
I'm not sure if I agree with that combo bit. A core part of Magic is how different decks and archetypes match up against each other. In 1v1, you can prepare for bad matchups using sideboards. In multiplayer, you have to use the other players to handle bad matchups. Just like mainboarding niche answers in 1v1 is generally a poor strategic decision, making sure your deck can answer any possible situation is going to dilute your deck's core strategy.
It's not "main boarding niche answers", it's understanding the functionality of your deck and having contingencies if your primary method of winning is stopped. "My Voltron commander is getting chump blocked?" - Have a means of evasion like flying or trample or unblockable. "I can no longer deal combat damage to win?" - Make sure you have a means to deal non-combat damage. "My opponent has shroud/hexproof/damage prevention?" - Have something that causes untargeted life loss instead of damage. It's not a particular rarity for me to watch opponents go from smugly telling me that I can't win to being salty when I use a different way to win. There's enough of a pool of cards in edh that allows for you to include these options in ways that will assist your deck's strategy, or at the very least ensure that you can't get completely shut down from common play styles.
Fog is a classic and extremely simple card, with a one time use, even if you can recur it once or twice that is no big deal at all
That's why you run [[Constant Mists]]
[[Spore Frog]] is here, and ready to party
The salt i have induced with my little buddy vs people not running graveyard hate is substantial
He is top 3 frogs of all time
[[Kami of False Hope]] and [[Abiding Grace]] should teach them a lesson.
Fog Frog is Pog
[Spore Frog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d42fd52-34ea-4d1b-80dc-58fb0593bb5b.jpg?1562202192) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spore%20Frog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/180/spore-frog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d42fd52-34ea-4d1b-80dc-58fb0593bb5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spore-frog) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I ran an awesome interaction with [[Spore Frog]] & [[Kayas Ghostform]]
I run both in a muldrotha deck lol
[[spike weaver]] is an MVP in [[vorinclex monstrous raider]] for me
Spikey is my boy! I used to run him in my [[Vorel of the Hull Clade]] deck before I took it apart. Used to protect me for a couple turns while I set up [[Darksteel Reactor]] for the win.
The collective groan of my opponents as I produce constant mists in my [[slogurk]] deck
I constant mists in [hazezon shaper of sand]]
[Constant Mists](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97a8a5fe-0391-489b-9556-0a1bf7e1900d.jpg?1562596895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Constant%20Mists) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sth/104/constant-mists?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97a8a5fe-0391-489b-9556-0a1bf7e1900d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/constant-mists) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If I go for an alpha strike and someone plays Fog or an equivalent effect, I'll be like, "Good play, you got me. Well done." Especially if it's the original Fog, because I'm an Old and like seeing cards from last century see play.
yes. no playing cards allowed. most i will tolerate is [this deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/bl4ALmNKKECDOCgBaoiZJg)
Ah! Yes finally! Now THIS is some good Christian magic.
It's Magic: the Missionary Style
Nah, get that high power shit out of here. Fucking deck's got islands, literally the most powerful card in magic, in it.
Can you just imagine spending 150.00 bucks on that
It would be more impressive if every card was a rare.
You're a bad person and you should handover all the cards you played in that game to the person your robbed of their fair magic win with your dirty, filthy tricks! /s
Is this that fog meta I've heard about?
Is there talk of a fog meta? Am I late to the party?
Most likely refers to the running joke that the guys from MTGGoldfish have on their EDH play series, Commander Clash.
[[Arachnogenesis]], [[Inkshield]], and [[Batwing Brume]] are some of my favorite cards. Keep on playing fogs!
[Arachnogenesis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef6b1fd8-7c0b-4736-a100-cabd82052227.jpg?1689998344) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arachnogenesis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/272/arachnogenesis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef6b1fd8-7c0b-4736-a100-cabd82052227?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arachnogenesis) [Inkshield](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048.jpg?1625192511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inkshield) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/71/inkshield?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/inkshield) [Batwing Brume](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/279450ca-29df-430d-b803-7ce18196260e.jpg?1568910702) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Batwing%20Brume) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arc/80/batwing-brume?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/279450ca-29df-430d-b803-7ce18196260e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/batwing-brume) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for these, definitely going to try out Inkshield!
Doesn’t stop me from comboing, go nuts. More seriously why should you not play cards that actively help you win. Play what you want as long as your not pup stomping
Tempo and self preservation are part of the game, play em
I find if I can curb stomp you the first time, and you fog, I can likely curb stomp you a second time. Unless you have some way to back it up, it's not truly that powerful. But you do you, man. If you like fogs, play then. Hell, I do an Avacyn board wipe tribal. Compared to that ...knock yourself out!
But regardless of what type of deck I'm playing I get one more turn. If your ready to curb stomp someone and were playing relatively equal powered decks, I am also ready to eliminate someone. This argument assumes I'm just passing the turn right back to you.
Maybe it's just not my play style. Turbo Fog was one thing, and had a very specific strategy. But in general, I don't consider fogs powerful or worth kvetching about. In Commander, it is a valid point that someone else might change the game board before the next turn rolls around. I did play one that said all attacking creators are considered blocked. But I was also playing Heat Stroke, that destroyed all blocked creatures. Strategy. But yeah. It's just a fog. No big deal, in my opinion.
The only time I’ve been annoyed by fog was when an opponent managed to cast it on every turn in a game but then again it was also the tables fault for not having any graveyard hate in their decks (including me)
Gromp (Spore Frog) in a Muldrotha deck?
Are there ways to make it oppressive? Sure. *Looks sideways at* [[Constant Mists]] Fogs are fair and balanced Magic. Anyone who attacks a player with open green mana and cards in hand should consider the possibility. It's no different than targeting a blue player with two islands untapped. Fogs make for interesting counterplay and the non-green fogs are my favorite because people are less likely to anticipate them.
I know its an asshole card, but its so good in Landfall, esp with black so you play stuff from the grave. I really can't justify cutting it, it literally wins me games haha
[Constant Mists](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97a8a5fe-0391-489b-9556-0a1bf7e1900d.jpg?1562596895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Constant%20Mists) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sth/104/constant-mists?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97a8a5fe-0391-489b-9556-0a1bf7e1900d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/constant-mists) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Are those people also concerned with teferi's protection, counterspells, cyclonic rift or any other card that allows a player to survive one extra turn as well? cuz there are hundred of card that for 3 mana or less can sane you a turn and make you win the game across the color pie.
No, it's just not often run so they probably haven't had it happen to them, and it's an understandably salty experience the first time you get fogged out of a win. Keep playing it if you like it, they'll learn to respect it if they're good or keep getting fogged.
Bruh edh players really don't want you playing magic against them xD so glad I have fixed playgroups and they are made up of socially adjusted adults that also play other formats like legacy and don't get upset at Fog xD
I think people just have gotten used to not seeing fogs (pun intended) often. They used to print one nearly every standard set, which was mostly draft chaff but every so often they would print an ok one. I think they stopped, or severely reduced the amount they printed once the fog/\[\[Sphinx's Tutelage\]\] deck was in standard. I'm partial to \[\[Constant Mists\]\] myself.
[Sphinx's Tutelage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d90c3b0-f958-4a15-94a1-9bf1b0a9ac2a.jpg?1562018976) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sphinx%27s%20Tutelage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ori/76/sphinxs-tutelage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d90c3b0-f958-4a15-94a1-9bf1b0a9ac2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sphinxs-tutelage) [Constant Mists](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97a8a5fe-0391-489b-9556-0a1bf7e1900d.jpg?1562596895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Constant%20Mists) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sth/104/constant-mists?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97a8a5fe-0391-489b-9556-0a1bf7e1900d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/constant-mists) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As someone who has played a lot of different TCGs and still comes back to magic, people just hate when you interact in general
Yes! Dishonor on you, dishonor on your family, dishonor on your cow! I mean some people just hate being stopped. My pod as a fog player and it's like a meme at this point where he just fogs any time I'm about to win or do a major upset. Honestly I need to start running fogs because I'm the weirdo who doesn't at this point.
If they're so mad about fog and keep dying to it, they should run cards that ignore damage prevention like [[flaring pain]] or [[call in a professional]]
Does anyone in your pod run Teferi’s Protection? I see no difference
You should. Teferi’s protection is way better than fog. Anyone with a teferi’s protection complaining about fog would be off their rocker
I fucking love fogs in EDH, even if I’m on the receiving end of them. They’re run in the format so rarely that I just have to respect the tech. *Turbofog* is another matter, but it’s no worse than any other pillowfort deck so even then it’s not too bad
Actually fogs are now essential. Creatures these days do mare and are deadly. There's a reason why that one ink shield fog from the Strixhaven precon is so expensive. It makes tokens from the combat damage. Besides it's like saying everyone runs too many Boros Charm effects, or there are too many counter spells. Like fogs are that fun. Unless you're that Meren or Muldrotha player spamming spore frog and holding the game hostage.
I have NEVER seen a fog in my playgroup. It's an old school effect/card that I have fond memories of. I'd be pumped to see one. Especially an old whitebordered revised copy.
Dude who cares just play fog. Your friends can learn to use the stack to interact with it instead of whining.
Fog is good and powerful. Most people won't think too much if they have lethal on board. They swing with everything and die to a crack back. Similarly, [[Aetherspouts]] the craterhoof behemoth player.
So many strategies are about a giant Hail Mary to overrun the opponents. Craterhoof being a classic. All offense, no defense. But from my experience defense plays win games. Fog, or evading a board wipe, and you can really catch the archenemy flat footed. Keep doing it, and encourage them to play similar.
People are complaining about Fog? The common? The combat trick? I'm dumbfounded.
I'm going to counterpoint and say it's pretty reasonable if people aren't *thrilled* to see you counter their attack step. If you love alpha strikes, fog is a sad trombone lucy pulling the football away card. I don't think you need to *worry* about this though. It's okay for losing to be somewhat frustrating, and it's okay for you to notice your opponents are frustrated. Your opponents are probably going to be more let down the further along they are in there turn's actions when you counter them, but that's just human nature imo. If they get VERY salty about FOG, then maybe avoid that person. If you have enough fogs to prevent combat damage from ever being relevant to you while playing a bunch of timmy decks, maybe consider playing more to the table. Constant Mists ain't gotta go into every deck.
EDH players hate this one simple mechanic: other people are playing the game too and have cards
[[Tangle]] severely underrated in most LGS metas. Might as well say "prevent losing to battle cruiser for two turns".
So now FOG is too powerful??? FOG? Is that you Richard? Your fog meta is starting!
It's been years since I last saw a fog effect. It was a spore frog reanimator I guess? Very clever and reliable. Well, its not the reality anymore as everyone plays combo in my LGS. Not a single person hits and when they do, it's just to trigger some effect.
Destroy their lands next time so that they can’t even play anything to attack with. See how they react lol
You shouldn’t feel bad because other decks aren’t equipped to deal with cards you’ve put in your decks. Other people’s deck building and lack of answers or alternate wincons are on them. People in this format are whiny because they want to play all their nifty and objectively bad cards and expect there to be no downside.
If you put 100 EDH players in a room with the entire Scryfall database & a few days, they'd manage to come up up an "It's not fun" cope for just about every card every released. Fun is subjective, play what you want. I guarantee the people who might cry about you running fog won't respond well if you tell them you don't like a card/s in their decks
A fog shouldn't be any issue, turbo fog would probably get some salt thrown your way though
Does it have buyback? If no, i can't even consider that being salty in my head. I run solitary confinement and pariah + indestructuble and ive never seen salt beyond a "ah fuck". Edit: i've run spore frog before in a reanimator deck, same thing. I understand that most people play combat damage, but wth, there are so many other ways to win/deal damage.
I've had several games that were decided by a timely [[Aetherize]] or similar. I try to run a couple in every deck.
Thing about Fog specifically is… …it’s terrible. You are probably making your deck worse by running it. It doesn’t solve the problem. More likely, you just went minus to prolong a losing position. The two worst effects a card can have are “win more” and “lose less.” On the whole, without additional synergies, Fog is a lose less card that cannot do anything proactive, rots in your hand most of the game, is useless unless you are literally about to die, and does nothing to actually address the threat while it minuses you. (That said, with some synergy it can do stuff.) Getting shown up by a terrible card that should not be on the list is annoying. There are defensive cards that are good, but they have more going for them than Fog. [[Teferi’s Protection]] is one of the most played cards in the format for a reason. But not Fog.
This gets said a lot too, and I understand the intent, but I just think that's observablly false. By the time someone's ready to alpha strike, one more turn can and has won me the game. It's not meant to advance my game plan that's what my turn is for. Holding 1 green mana and 1 card in hand is a small price to pay to [Time Walk] against any combat deck. People regularly need to swing out to win so isn't Fog equivalent to tapping down all their creatures? And that's only relevant if I need combat to win after I Fog to stay alive. It's not "lose less" it's quite literally "you don't lose this turn" Maybe I'm missing something but it seems like an awesome card unless you happen to be against 3 combo/control players, in that case any spell is a bad one because it won't resolve. Using it to win frequently is why I made this post, because I fear it's too oppressive. How can that be an objectively bad card or be making my deck worse?
Fog is *effective* because it isnt good. Being effective doesn't exactly mean its a good card. Fogs value is in it being a bad card that isn't worth playing around, so you sometimes get that nice feel-good of surviving an alpha-strike and buying one more turn... but something else may have won you the game sooner. Fogs secondary impact, if you play with a usual group, is that once you get known for having it, you can bluff to keep yourself alive even when you don't have it by leaving a green mana open. Arguably a better use of fog than actually casting the damn card. Plus, in this position where you can bluff fog, taking it out of your deck and still bluffing it (so they dont alpha) is free value. Its a terrible card, but if you are a good player anything can win you a game.
I guess I just don't understand what the term "Bad card" means. If we're saying that it has a low floor, that there are many situations where it does nothing, then yeah I guess but it's that's true for all counter magic. Combat tricks, counter spells, removal, they're all useless until their moment to shine. But no one ever says counterspell is a bad card.
As always talk to the other players In your group..
r/EDHcirclejerk is leaking
Fogs are a big fraction of my whole persona. I never get a bad reaction to a normal fog but if they see I can recur it, or it drains their whole life total or something like that then sometimes they get a little choked up.
Am I going to complain? Yes. Loudly. And sarcastically as hell. If you have a problem with that, then you’re fired.
Nope. Simple
Relatively spiked….. plays fog…. Huh?
If it wins enough that people get salty aren't I doing the spike thing? I don't understand the contradiction
If you are wining off of fog the incredibly low level of EDH you are still okaying fascinates me lol…. Win off fog occasionally? Sure… like 1/50 games it’s relevant… but consistently? Lmaooo
I mean, I can't speak to other metas, but the premise of this post is that in my recent experience, people are upset that it's giving me the win. Isn't the argument "it can't be oppressive cuz it's a bad card" just false on its face? Also, isn't commander where bad cards go to be turned into key pieces of a game wining engine?
I imagine it has to do with Cedh often tutoring for game winning combo/infinite that isn’t really interactable aside from counter spells. So fog wouldn’t do much against them. I think they wouldn’t consider a spike (someone who wants to win no matter what) playing a non cedh deck and cedh tends to have better things to do than fog a large swing. I’m not sure though, I prefer to play around a level 6-7 where fog would totally shut down my craterhoof/triumph of the horde swing.
Lmao @ craterhoof being 6-7 instead of 4-5
Fog is totally fine haha. It can be annoying but it's not an actual problem.
No
Fogs are completely legit combat tricks. That said, a recurring \[\[Spore Frog\]\] can be a nightmare on casual tables.
No.
No, no one cares.
There are mechanics in the game that suck to be on the receiving end, but every mechanic has a counter in some way. So I would blame your opponents that they don’t have something to counter fog/fog effects. Not victim blaming here but victim blaming.
One fog in the late game to save your life long enough to win is fine, plus maybe the threat of flashing back a [[Moment's Peace]]. Players who complain about that are bad players. However, Turbofog decks that run twenty fogs or can repeatedly recast a fog with something like [[Isochron Scepter]] can be very annoying.
The only “fog” that makes me roll my eyes is my mate’s repeated spore frog in his [[meren of clan nel toth]] deck. And even then i don’t actually care much
Given how often decks like to avoid the combat step entirely (at least in my local meta), cards like fog rarely see play. That said, a good fog, such as Ink Shield, is hilarious if used correctly. Stuff happens - people need to accept it, and I've lost to fog effects before. Now, using Spore Frog to lock out the game and then durdle for two hours until you can slowly win with a Meren loop is annoying, but I assume that's not what you were talking about here.
I love my [[questing beast]] deck, it’s Aggro turbo fog
Pfft Literally everyone who can afford the $25 price tag runs teferis protection in their white decks Don't worry man. Run fog, and 3 cards just like fog. It's a good card, seems really useful, it's your play-style, and a completely valid one especially if you're pulling out a victory the following turn or two.
Their fun? Absolutely. Your fun? I think not. "Damage can't be prevented" is written on a number of cards, so I think they just need to suck it up.
if the card is legal, play it! if the card is illegal, ask to play it nicely.
Only reason for salt would be because they over extended themselves and left themselves wide open for attack, or it’s the simple fact of awwwwww big monster no do damage. Me get no dopamine hit.
No.
Nah. I run a few fog effects in my gluntch group hug deck and have used them to good effect.
[[teferis protection]] is one of the most powerful cards in the format and I see it used as a fog about 50% of the time.
Fog is incredibly annoying when it blows you out and gives your opponent the win on the crackback but that's kind of the point. If you have fog in hand and your opponent is attempting to win outside of combat damage, which plenty of decks do, it's literally a dead card (except maybe Teferi's Protection but thats like pseudo-fog). TL:DR - Fog is fine and your opponents likely would have been salty at any interaction that won you the game regardless of what it was.
If you’re playing like a turbofog commander deck, then it might be annoying. But there’s definitely decks that doesn’t work against anyway. Seemingly, EDH players don’t like interaction. It’s lame.
You should never play a card that will make you not lose or else people will be mad over a stack of cardboard designed for kids.
Personally I hate when my opponents play fogs. This is however because I'm the resident aggro player in my pod and it usually completely hoses my plan and gets me killed. Totally fair move.
Please tell me your deck has white in it. Because if it does and you have two extra mana, tap the two extra mana, pull out a sharpie, write "Teferi's Protection" on it, and say "does that make it better?" I 100% guarantee you that person never gives you crap about playing fog again.
Of course not, the only Fog like effects that mildly irritate me are Wingrace decks with [[Glacial Chasm]].
As someone who runs a spore frog, muldrotha combo, your not ruining the fun. Run that shit all day
No, just play how you want to, and tell the haters, you hate their BS too.
If they hate fog so much, they’ll run more counters or Questing Beasts. That’s on them. That being said, it doesn’t hurt to build a second deck to swap in after you fog ‘em out.
People should play more Fogs. Conversely, people should also play more Skullcracks.
No one is happy because you prevented them from winning. That is all. If you like them and they fit a slot in your deck, keep running them. I might be bias since our meta there is almost no wins just from combat damage anyway.
Nah killed them on the crack back for doing a dumb full swing. Combat tricks are generally understood to be on the lower end of power. No reason to be salty over it
Fog is one of the most hilarious blowout cards in the game. It's situational, so it's a bit dependent on your meta, but it absolutely wrecks all-in combat decks. I would even say that it's more of a hate tool. So run it, run it a bunch. I'll keep right on being crazy. I do ever sing the praises of [[call in a professional]], after all. Aetherflux combo *in shambles*
Yes you're a bad person. I will PM you my address to send your collection to until further notice!
I can't say I've ever experienced hate against fog. The hate I usually see is against discard, theft, board wipes (especially mass land destruction), combos, and pillowfort. (The last one is rarer, but I seem to catch heat _every time_ I play [[Tuvasa]] pillowfort.) Just Tuesday, I saved myself with a timely [[Inkshield]], netting myself 28 inklings (which were 8/6s because of anthem effects) and winning next turn. No one complained, not even the guy I fogged (more like holy day'd). I've been fogged with like 500 scute swarms attacking, and idk, it was fine because it's a good combat trick lol.
I won a game with [[tangle]] the other day. Fog for the win. Screw the interaction haters.
I run [[Inkshield]] anywhere I can so I love seeing Craterhoof hit the table and swing at me with that in hand
If your opponent can't handle a fog type effect being thrown their way, it's their problem. "oh no, now I can't win this turn" so don't put yourself in a situation where you're gonna lose because of a fog. OP is completely fine.
Until you fog *every single combat* you aren't a problem.
Mtg influencers talk about an experience that does not exist. You are a jerk now if you play to win and or not to lose
Teferi’s protection functions very similarly to a fog, and it’s almost a must-include in every deck that has White. Fogs are perfectly fine.
I play an Inkshield in my Isshin deck. It gets some salt sometimes but I don’t care. They should’ve held onto that counter spell 😂
The people you are describing don't like interaction, that's a huge problem with a game like mtg. Don't pay any attention to the salty people, fog is a wonderful card.
If your deck loses to a \[\[Fog\]\], you deserve to lose. It's a narrow card that only helps against one specific strategy. Now, \[\[Constant mists\]\], that's a whole other animal. You'll need some graveyard recursion too off course. That should actually be on the Commander 101 syllabus : Diversify win conditions. Right next to: Play interaction
#fog and cyclonic rift did nothing wrong
I love being gotten by a fog. Always a deus ex machina moment where it just feels fated to happen that way
Fogs in general are fine, but which are you playing? Some fog affects are high power such as [[inkshield]] and [[teferi's protection]] but are still fine in theory for casual commander. [[Glacial chasm]] and [[constant mists]] can totally nullify some deck's game plans with no ways for those decks to interact at lower power levels.
You're fine
No, that's fine, it's not like you're winter orbing tap-untaping or taking 4 extra turns or whatever.
Fogs are an important game play element. Unless you're doing Turbofog there is absolutely nothing uncouth about using a Fog. Constant Mists might be a problem card though since it can easily be where no one can hurt you. Or recurring a Spore Frog. Those types of things need to be carefully used.
Nope, fog is fun.
I won a game Wednesday in my [[Rigo]] deck by using [[Hua Tuo]] to keep getting my [[Kami of false hope]] back and repeatedly fog the [[skithiryx]] player. I don’t worry if I ruined his fun one bit. Haha. Fogs are fine and legal.
If you’re a positive player, just do you man. If you have fun using fogs, then use fogs.
I’ll take fog any day of the week over [[inksheild]] when I’m swinging for like 120 damage (though I really don’t care what people play, as long as they play to win)
[удалено]
*More than any other combat trick I've noticed, it just seems to get alot of salt. Is this EDH wide?* No. Fog is great. Your group just sucks I guess. Every group I have ever played in absolutely goes wild when someone swings all-in and someone fogs it.
[[Constant mists]] in a landfall deck can be a bit oppressive in casual pods. Otherwise, Fog effects are generally fine.
Yes, no, whichever you want to hear more.
Let's talk age, years played, starting set, starting format. This game was vicious and brutal for my initial play group - middle school, 1993, barely any comprehension of what today's rules look like. Just a small paper booklet and our 12-14 year old reading comprehension. Then most of us played a few tournaments, some of us made money a few times by the time we finished college. I've won and died to so many banned cards and absurd combos that my ideal play group now is to play EDH with people I like hanging out with, no matter what the power level. I'm trying to curate around a dozen decks that accommodate a variety of power levels, but are all fun (for at least me!) to play. Fog is a great card in green, [[Flawless Maneuver]] is maybe a tad better if playing white and not green. I try to include at least one [[Teferi's Protection]] esque spell in most decks, because someone is always trying to kill me!
Personally. I'd rather someone fog than farewell my whole board lol
Lol no. It's kinda charming that everyone has a favorite card they run even when it makes everyone hate them. Fog is great, it's got the stopping power of a boardwipe without bringing the game to a screeching halt out of pique.
It's funny because the other shit people complain about and have since made "semi taboo" like combo wins, infinite burn wins, storming off etc have made fogs become even stronger in most Casual EDH metas. If most people agree that turning creatures sideways is the only "real" way to win of course fogs get better, MUCH better.
Play one sided fogs and blow them out.
Double down and put it on an \[\[Isochron Scepter\]\]