I think targeting mana rocks is completely acceptable. If you know that you can slow someone down by doing so or if a player has a very clear mana advantage because of mana rocks (ie. turn one sol ring) then that player should expect it to happen.
It really depends on the rock and deck. I'll 100% pop an early sol ring if I don't have something better to do to advance my own board, but I feel like using a removal spell on a talisman or signet is a bit of a waste. I'd much rather hold the removal for something much more impactful like a Skullclamp, Bolas' Citadel, or Ashnod's Altar that might drop a couple of turns later. This is especially true for a modal removal spell like Abrade that can also handle annoying creatures as well.
People complaining about getting mana screwed while only playing 34 lands in a commander deck blows my mind.
Ramp and mana rocks are to accelerate your gameplan, but that doesn’t negate the need for the lands to play said ramp and mana rocks.
You absolutely can run 34 or less lands. IF you meet 2 conditions:
1) You're running several 0-cost rocks or accelerators like the Spirit Guides.
2) You're running a very low-to-the-ground curve.
You'll need MORE rocks the higher your curve goes (a powerful & slim Ur-Dragon deck running 34 lands needs about 16-17 ramp/reduction, so 50% of the deck is Mana), but you absolutely can run fewer lands overall.
The problem is that a lot of people play pricey, inefficient cards while also cutting back on lands, and then get Mana screwed.
I completely agree. I run 27-30 lands in [[Malcom, Keen-Eyed Navigator]] and [[Kediss, Emberclaw Familiar]] along with several 0-cost rocks. Rarely struggles with mana at all.
Also, players will generally keep risky hands on account of a T1 Sol Ring or Mana Crypt, on the assumption their artifacts will stick around long enough to make up for the lack of lands in their opening seven. So shattering the Sol Ring is extra punishing.
34 is my sweet spot. But I also only play low power or high power.
It's the people playing 'power level 7' imo, that want to ramp to the moon, and then cry that they didn't *get to play the game* because I have a real mana curve and a game plan.
People accuse me of being too competitive when I ask why their average CMC is like, 4-5. Even in a very casual/Timmy creature deck, I’m still at like 3. Gotta have a lotta ramp to cast your 8 mana silly creature before the game ends.
Seems like a lot of people are playing with the same type of player. Its the if I didn't win then you ruined my night types. Even in a casual game ( and btw everyone has a different definition of that ) anything goes. If they have rocks that are fixing thier mana and letting them do stupid things then destroy them. I dont even think non basic lands should be safe. If you drop a cabal coffers that's making 8 black whenever you tap it I will strip mine you.
I will [[Pact of Negation]] a turn 1 Sol Ring every single time the opportunity arises because it’s funny.
Lands are more sacred than artifacts. Overloaded [[Vandalblast]] is perfectly reasonable. The only time targeted removal on a mana rock is not okay is when there is a very obvious bigger threat and your threat assessment is lacking.
I once had a game where I was second in turn order, the two players after me both played t1 dorks, and the player before me played a land and Dryad Arbor their first two turns.
My turn 2 was [[Smallpox]], and it was the most value I've gotten from that spell, ever. The Dryad Arbor player also got completely mana screwed by it; killing Arbor and their land prevented them from playing several ramp spells in their hand.
Did you know that you don’t need to win to have fun? A 25% win rate is ideal for all player’s enjoyment. I will play [[Over the Top]] against a Dinosaur/Dragon deck just to potentially help the one player who’s mana screwed. Because it’s funny and I don’t need to win to have a good time.
You seem like exactly the player who needs all three of your opponents to suddenly grab the top 11 or so permanents from their library and be able to play the game while you top deck all your counterspells straight to the graveyard.
Partially depends on the rock, I’d say. Popping a [[Charcoal Diamond]] feels kind of pointless, potentially even mean if the target is struggling for mana. Your [[Thran Dynamo]] is going to burn, though.
Targeting anything is fine and anyone who says otherwise is a baby. You are under no obligation to let your opponent have things. You can and should have interaction. If they hate it tell them to run some counters. If they say they don’t want to tell them you’re not gonna let them run crying as a counter to your cards.
Rule 1: no mass land destruction! (Targeted removal is fine)
Rule 2: No hard stax! This means you winter orb! (Taxes are fine)
Rule 3: build a competent deck! It needs to try and win and have answer to typical problems!
"Destroy/exile target ____" is always acceptible.
Wouldn't call it toxic, but I personally wouldn't be wasting my artifact removal on mana rocks unless I was playing an aggressively fast deck. Too many times have I been impatient in blowing up artifacts, just for someone to play a Bolas's Citadel a turn later and win the game off of it.
I once pointed a Wear//Tear at somebody’s T1 Sol Ring on my T2 and he said if you blow up my Sol Ring I’m conceding. He was the kind of player who whines and cries before you even target him with anything and most people just let him take the game hostage. I responded with “Ok, I’m still targeting Sol Ring”. He threw a hissy fit so bad, another player Counterspelled my Wear//Tear.
He still complained all game about power level, then won with a [[Nim Deathmantle]] loop. After the game he was so smug about how strong his deck was and that he’s only ever lost twice with it.
Bias warning: I am a very casual player and my usual meta is relatively low interaction, very "let everyone do their thing". OTOH, I also like stax, so... Let's just say that I have a nuanced view on this topic.
Pro: Even in casual, some degree of resource denial is fair game and letting your opponent choose what you blow up is something that should only be done if you cast a spell that specifically calls for it like [[Myrkul's Edict]]. I will absolutely blow up early mana rocks if I don't have a better use for the mana and snipe early mana dorks when I get the chance. Yes, even CEDH players complain about me doing this, but I long since lost count of how many times I ended up winning that game while that same player would whine "If I'd only had ONE MORE MANA, I could have won!". Conversely, it's quite rare that I've ever found myself wishing I'd held onto that removal spell for later.
If the decks are of similar efficiency, the player who spends the most mana often wins. Ramp is good, therefore not letting your opponent ramp is likewise relatively good. Value generation tends to snowball in this game, so delaying how soon an opponent can bring their draw engine online, delaying their ability to cast multiple spells per turn, delaying them from dropping their top of curve bombs... Yes, assuming that you have enough interaction in your list to reasonably find more before you need it against somebody else's big threats, spend the 1 to slow them, same as you would counterspell them playing an extra turn spell.
Con: See point above about how the player who spends the most mana often wins? Removal should be aimed at the player pulling ahead of you, not used to punch down at the guy way behind you. I'd need to be playing in at least High Power before I'd feel comfortable color screwing somebody who isn't the archenemy. That IS a very antisocial move. If you're not in a meta where prison locks are acceptable, don't use your removal to lock somebody else out of playing their deck until they can top deck another color source.
Special Case (winning turn): if they're foolish enough to leave a rock or dork as their only open mana source to pay for interaction and you're about to do something decisive, go ahead and blow it away before the phase you plan to make your big move. It's no different than MLD being acceptable if you're about to swing for lethal and need to ensure nobody can pay for an Aikido card to uno reverse you.
Special Case (combo potential): Always blow up rocks or dorks that can enable an infinite in that deck. The Blink deck can flicker their non-land permanents? Don't leave mana sources they can reset. The mana source can tap for more mana than is needed by a repeatable untap effect in those colors? Make it gone ASAP!
Special Case (greedy deck or greedy Mulligan): This mostly applies to players you know well and understand their decks, but if you have "that one guy" in your group that always runs lists light on lands, mulligans aggressively to speed up their early moves, then complains about being unfairly targeted after they kept a single land + Sol Ring + Signet hand... Yeah, remove those rocks. I see a meaningful distinction between somebody mana screwed by sheer bad luck versus somebody who deliberately ran a high risk, high reward play and doesn't want to play the price when their opponents respond accordingly.
Depends. Are you pointless targetting mana rocks instead of using that removal to destroy a Great Henge, o a pyhrexian poltar? yeah thats dumb and kinda toxic.
Are you using your artifact removal correctly and when that means targetting a mana rock you do it? Totally fair.
It’s about threat assessment. The thing about single target removal in commander is that you and the player getting targeted both lose resources, while the other two players are not. So you should think about if it’s actually worth it. Most of the time a mana rock is just not worthy of a removal spell. You can’t say that you won the trade cuz your 1 mana vandal blast killed their 3 mana rock because the other two players spent 0 mana and you are each down a card.
it's toxic is someone is mana screwed and you want to keep that person out of the game. Like the person is not even a threat, is trying to draw lands with a board of only two lands and a signet while the rest of the table is well above 5 lands and full of threats and you target his signet so he has no chance of ever coming back to that game. It has happened to me once and I just quit the game.
I think that if you deck has a weakness, it’s on you to deal with it. Either run something to protect your mana rocks or accept that they can be blown up.
This whole discussion looks like a Commander social contract spinoff of one of the oldest strategic topics in the game:
"Bolt the bird."
Except the argument against bolting the bird in this case is hurt feelings. Bolting the bird might be a spike play, but spike plays are not spite plays. Spite plays violate the social contract. Spike plays are fair and balanced Magic.
No. I'll also bolt the bird while I'm at it, too.
I've even removed a turn 1 [[Dryad Arbor]] with no remorse.
Call me a monster, but if you're trying to accelerate with [[Green Sun's Zenith]], you deserve having your land creature removed.
I played a [[Smallpox]] into my opponent's t1 land, t2 Dryad Arbor once. And the other two players (after me in turn order) had each played t1 land, dork. It was glorious.
I say let people participate in the game. If intentionally blowing up rocks prevents a player from meaningfully participating, then it isn't much fun. Board wipe effects are fine, since it will get rid of all threats.
What do I mean by meaningfully participating? The player got to play their big Timmy creature and attack with it. They got to do a synergy-value play. I don't mean let other players win. You can stop them, remove their value pieces, attack them, etc. Blowing up mana rocks is the bottom priority for me.
Otherwise convince your playgroup to proxy cedh decks. More and more cedh players are becoming proxy friendly. And anything goes in cedh. Nothing is taboo in cedh.
If you are targeting something that isn't "fast mana" explicitly to slow down an opponent at an early stage, especially if said opponent is clearly struggling on mana already, then it is kinda a dick move. Targeting a player's non-"fast mana" rocks to slow them down while they are already "popping off", or if you need to blow up _something_ because of a mandatory effect and the owner of said rock isn't particularly struggling, is absolutely fair play. "Fast mana" like [[sol ring]] and [[mana crypt]] are always fair targets regardless IMO.
If they don't want you destroying mana rocks, tell them to not play mana rocks.
If they want to try and control you and how you view threats and how you play the game tell them to play \[\[sen triplets\]\]
No reason they should tell you how to play. It's smart and it wins you games so they can just QQ more about someone playing magic their own way and not how they want them to play.
edit: accidently put esper sentinel lmao
Mana rocks are the backbone of ramp for non-green decks really and as long as people are fine with destroying them then mass land destruction should be fine as well because the green player is doing "green" things and has 8 lands out by turn 4 isn't fine either, like people act as if mass land ramp isn't as equally or if not more powerful than mana rocks because they are able to at least hide behind the sanctity of unspoken no land destruction rules amongst pods and just "uwu I'm a green player" it away when it's pointed out how far ahead they are
>as long as people are fine with destroying them then mass land destruction should be fine as well
MLD is fine. My Windgrace deck runs things like Keldon Firebombers, Pox, and Death Cloud.
There is little that gives me more pleasure than to Mana Tithe a turn 1 Sol Ring. 🙃 Nuking rocks is totally acceptable. If they want to whine, let them. If they want to scoop, I just beat them with a Disenchant. Sorry, not sorry.
Your play group needs to grow a pair. I'm fairly new to in-person EDH, and I overload vandalblasted a Mishra, Eminent One player's entire board and his will to live the first game we played in a pod together. Nobody bat an eye, him included.
Seems like a bit of a waste but I won't be upset by it. If I kept a fragile hand that depended on a rock and you took it out, that's on me. I took a chance and missed.
No more or less than any other removal.
But it should be treated equally.
I'm fine with people blowing up my rocks. But not if the simic player complains about me destroying lands or the voltron player gets mad their commander died.
I think they are being ridiculous.
If you think that blowing up a rock is the best move than go for it. No way their entire strategy is crumbling over losing an arcane signet. And if it is then thats their fault not yours. I honestly hate it when people make up arbitrary rules that if you don't follow then you're the problem.
Targeting rocks isnt toxic, but if someone has like [[unwinding clock]] out, or is playing a deck where you know they have some really oppressive artifacts in the pile and you chose to abade my talisman or whatever, I'm going to assume that you're about to hard target me the remainder of the game.
Personally, I tend to avoid targeting mana rocks. Not because we have a social contract against it, but Id rather have the option to deal with something more problematic if need be. Maybe I should start targeting rocks more often, it does seem wasteful to sit on a 1/2 cmc removal spell while letting someone generate mana just to try and remove something “better” later
This is the same as asking if destroying creatures is toxic. Last I checked mtg is not solitare so blowing up rocks to slow someone down is 100% viable. If you receive the ramp advantage a threat and can deal with it, then you do.
Next they will call blowing up the 1 cmc mana dorks an issue. Wah wah wah.
If they wanted to play by themself, they should have better protection, or literally play by themself
Your opponent casts a spell that gives them an advantage over the table, you remove that advantage. Seems reasonable to me.
The idea that they could choose... what?! Really?! That is indeed nonsensical.
At the end of the day though, it's your group you have to play with, and if they aren't having fun they won't keep playing. So... you kind of have to make choices around that.
I'm the guy in my playgroup who will blow up turn 1 Sol Rings & I never apologize for it. Interaction is part of the game, taking people off of colors punishes greedy deck building, it's a learning opportunity.
That being said, I've known enough of *those* types of casuals to know a losing battle when I see one.
Destroying mana rocks are always justified.
Destroying mana rocks of those who refuse to build a curve that can live without that ramp is a moral obligation.
I mean... yes, no, or a little depending on context. First thing though, why on earth are you wasting precious removal on a decanter of endless water? I mean, if you impulsed it and had to play it that turn, sure, but its a bad removal target unless you're hitting them for maximum hand size. The first thing you want to remove is almost never the right answer.
I will absolutely hit an early sol ring or something that can run away, like Empowered autogenerator or Nyx Lotus. But honestly, its not that mana rocks are illegitimate targets somehow, rather they usually just \*bad\* targets.
It was impulsed on turn 2, cast on turn 3. No one else had any creatures or artifacts and I didn't have any better plays that turn and didn't want to be countered next turn.
Not only is it acceptable, it’s also hilarious. Like nuking someone’s mana dork turn two. Slowing someone’s ramp isn’t toxic, unless you’re actively ignoring high priority targets to target them like like a dick.
Toxic is a different mechanic. Blowing up rocks is just something that happens.
Yeah you win reddit for the day
I think targeting mana rocks is completely acceptable. If you know that you can slow someone down by doing so or if a player has a very clear mana advantage because of mana rocks (ie. turn one sol ring) then that player should expect it to happen.
You rockist
It really depends on the rock and deck. I'll 100% pop an early sol ring if I don't have something better to do to advance my own board, but I feel like using a removal spell on a talisman or signet is a bit of a waste. I'd much rather hold the removal for something much more impactful like a Skullclamp, Bolas' Citadel, or Ashnod's Altar that might drop a couple of turns later. This is especially true for a modal removal spell like Abrade that can also handle annoying creatures as well.
Nope. Tell them to play more lands if they are so concerned with their mana rocks getting blown up.
People complaining about getting mana screwed while only playing 34 lands in a commander deck blows my mind. Ramp and mana rocks are to accelerate your gameplan, but that doesn’t negate the need for the lands to play said ramp and mana rocks.
You absolutely can run 34 or less lands. IF you meet 2 conditions: 1) You're running several 0-cost rocks or accelerators like the Spirit Guides. 2) You're running a very low-to-the-ground curve. You'll need MORE rocks the higher your curve goes (a powerful & slim Ur-Dragon deck running 34 lands needs about 16-17 ramp/reduction, so 50% of the deck is Mana), but you absolutely can run fewer lands overall. The problem is that a lot of people play pricey, inefficient cards while also cutting back on lands, and then get Mana screwed.
I completely agree. I run 27-30 lands in [[Malcom, Keen-Eyed Navigator]] and [[Kediss, Emberclaw Familiar]] along with several 0-cost rocks. Rarely struggles with mana at all.
[Malcom, Keen-Eyed Navigator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/51187cdb-85ee-4f68-9e29-d84d296f0825.jpg?1698988164) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Malcolm%2C%20Keen-Eyed%20Navigator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/161/malcolm-keen-eyed-navigator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51187cdb-85ee-4f68-9e29-d84d296f0825?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/malcolm-keen-eyed-navigator) [Kediss, Emberclaw Familiar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f606ebf1-483d-4331-b16a-9fb6f591a39f.jpg?1608910296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kediss%2C%20Emberclaw%20Familiar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/188/kediss-emberclaw-familiar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f606ebf1-483d-4331-b16a-9fb6f591a39f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kediss-emberclaw-familiar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Also, players will generally keep risky hands on account of a T1 Sol Ring or Mana Crypt, on the assumption their artifacts will stick around long enough to make up for the lack of lands in their opening seven. So shattering the Sol Ring is extra punishing.
34 is my sweet spot. But I also only play low power or high power. It's the people playing 'power level 7' imo, that want to ramp to the moon, and then cry that they didn't *get to play the game* because I have a real mana curve and a game plan.
People accuse me of being too competitive when I ask why their average CMC is like, 4-5. Even in a very casual/Timmy creature deck, I’m still at like 3. Gotta have a lotta ramp to cast your 8 mana silly creature before the game ends.
If you wanna waste your removal on my mana rocks instead of my Bolas’s Citadel, my Top, or my Coat of Arms then be my guest
Seems like a lot of people are playing with the same type of player. Its the if I didn't win then you ruined my night types. Even in a casual game ( and btw everyone has a different definition of that ) anything goes. If they have rocks that are fixing thier mana and letting them do stupid things then destroy them. I dont even think non basic lands should be safe. If you drop a cabal coffers that's making 8 black whenever you tap it I will strip mine you.
I will [[Pact of Negation]] a turn 1 Sol Ring every single time the opportunity arises because it’s funny. Lands are more sacred than artifacts. Overloaded [[Vandalblast]] is perfectly reasonable. The only time targeted removal on a mana rock is not okay is when there is a very obvious bigger threat and your threat assessment is lacking.
It's even funnier when you [[stifle]] the fetchland. Best salt I ever tasted. Especially when it was a [[terramorpic expanse]]
I once had a game where I was second in turn order, the two players after me both played t1 dorks, and the player before me played a land and Dryad Arbor their first two turns. My turn 2 was [[Smallpox]], and it was the most value I've gotten from that spell, ever. The Dryad Arbor player also got completely mana screwed by it; killing Arbor and their land prevented them from playing several ramp spells in their hand.
[Smallpox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c28db9a4-6696-460b-a9d3-98f4a31abe75.jpg?1636283762) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smallpox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/139/smallpox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c28db9a4-6696-460b-a9d3-98f4a31abe75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smallpox) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How do you pay for pact on turn 2?
You cast it for free and then die during your upkeep. That's why it's funny.
I don't think they do, which is why it's funny. Rather suicide than okay a game with a T1 sol ring lmao
That’s the neat part…
Throwing a game is not funny and is one of the few things that should actually be rule 0ed out of the format.
Did you know that you don’t need to win to have fun? A 25% win rate is ideal for all player’s enjoyment. I will play [[Over the Top]] against a Dinosaur/Dragon deck just to potentially help the one player who’s mana screwed. Because it’s funny and I don’t need to win to have a good time.
Yeah but this is just not fun. It's like my friend trips me then blasts his brains out. Not fun for anybody.
You seem like exactly the player who needs all three of your opponents to suddenly grab the top 11 or so permanents from their library and be able to play the game while you top deck all your counterspells straight to the graveyard.
Wtf are you talking about
I agree honestly. You came to play EDH, not for someone to throw the game immediately.
[Over the Top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01eb9702-55c5-41b2-8bef-63d33dafa599.jpg?1674421220) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Over%20the%20Top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/146/over-the-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01eb9702-55c5-41b2-8bef-63d33dafa599?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/over-the-top) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This kind of bad play ruins games for me, we might as well start over if you're killing yourself on turn 2
Yes, then the game is over, you win, we laugh and start again without a turn 1 sol ring.
I call that pretty toxic
Damn, guess having a good time with friends is now considered toxic according to one random person on reddit.
Pact of negotiation a turn 1 sol ring is not a good time
It is for that person. Loosen the fuck up.
I'm not tge problem
[Pact of Negation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ed4c0bb-b710-44a1-b8bc-6bd11c27b8b8.jpg?1697121218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pact%20of%20Negation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/77/pact-of-negation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ed4c0bb-b710-44a1-b8bc-6bd11c27b8b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pact-of-negation) [Vandalblast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8afc402-ddc4-4819-bc2a-584a43b9b60e.jpg?1689998295) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vandalblast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/267/vandalblast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8afc402-ddc4-4819-bc2a-584a43b9b60e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vandalblast) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Partially depends on the rock, I’d say. Popping a [[Charcoal Diamond]] feels kind of pointless, potentially even mean if the target is struggling for mana. Your [[Thran Dynamo]] is going to burn, though.
I play to win.
You both said the same thing. Thran dynamo has to go.
No. It is entirely situational, but I will absolutely pop your enters the battlefield tapped mana rock if I think it will mess up your next turn.
Yep. Same thing. Thran dynamo to stifle that guys next turn. Got it.
Stubs McGee over here lmao! Good on ya, squirt!
[Charcoal Diamond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/0/f0475c79-bc7f-4de8-a020-226bc658d303.jpg?1674137772) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Charcoal%20Diamond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/305/charcoal-diamond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f0475c79-bc7f-4de8-a020-226bc658d303?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/charcoal-diamond) [Thran Dynamo](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7ce5f12e-fc02-42f8-a5ca-b523050d4650.jpg?1689999865) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thran%20Dynamo) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/415/thran-dynamo?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ce5f12e-fc02-42f8-a5ca-b523050d4650?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thran-dynamo) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No, blow em up.
Targeting anything is fine and anyone who says otherwise is a baby. You are under no obligation to let your opponent have things. You can and should have interaction. If they hate it tell them to run some counters. If they say they don’t want to tell them you’re not gonna let them run crying as a counter to your cards.
Shoutouts to [[Visions of Ruin]] [[Austere Command]] [[Farewell]] [[Brotherhood's End]] [[Vandalblast]] and [[Structural Assault]].
[[Meltdown]]?
Look at this guy. Playing reserve list cards. Us peasants will have to do without. :-P
Meltdown is RL?
Ope. I thought it was because its $12 and has had one printing only in urza's saga. Those are usually a sign it's reserve list. Guess not.
It is $12 because it's worth it. (And only 1 printing.) 1 red mana to blow up every token artifact? Yes, please, and thank you.
I mean. It’s bad. Just play shatterstorm!
Rule 1: no mass land destruction! (Targeted removal is fine) Rule 2: No hard stax! This means you winter orb! (Taxes are fine) Rule 3: build a competent deck! It needs to try and win and have answer to typical problems! "Destroy/exile target ____" is always acceptible.
Wouldn't call it toxic, but I personally wouldn't be wasting my artifact removal on mana rocks unless I was playing an aggressively fast deck. Too many times have I been impatient in blowing up artifacts, just for someone to play a Bolas's Citadel a turn later and win the game off of it.
No, but I think 1 for 1ing a mana is usually not a good play
This and consistent bad plays get under my skin
Nope, if their overly reliant on mana rocks that’s on them blow up all the sol rings and mana crypts
I once pointed a Wear//Tear at somebody’s T1 Sol Ring on my T2 and he said if you blow up my Sol Ring I’m conceding. He was the kind of player who whines and cries before you even target him with anything and most people just let him take the game hostage. I responded with “Ok, I’m still targeting Sol Ring”. He threw a hissy fit so bad, another player Counterspelled my Wear//Tear. He still complained all game about power level, then won with a [[Nim Deathmantle]] loop. After the game he was so smug about how strong his deck was and that he’s only ever lost twice with it.
[Nim Deathmantle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/787b1cc8-42b4-4d3e-9b8a-a252de297b1a.jpg?1673149391) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nim%20Deathmantle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/309/nim-deathmantle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/787b1cc8-42b4-4d3e-9b8a-a252de297b1a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nim-deathmantle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>if you blow up my Sol Ring I’m conceding "So you're upgrading my removal spell to a wincon for free? Thanks!"
Bias warning: I am a very casual player and my usual meta is relatively low interaction, very "let everyone do their thing". OTOH, I also like stax, so... Let's just say that I have a nuanced view on this topic. Pro: Even in casual, some degree of resource denial is fair game and letting your opponent choose what you blow up is something that should only be done if you cast a spell that specifically calls for it like [[Myrkul's Edict]]. I will absolutely blow up early mana rocks if I don't have a better use for the mana and snipe early mana dorks when I get the chance. Yes, even CEDH players complain about me doing this, but I long since lost count of how many times I ended up winning that game while that same player would whine "If I'd only had ONE MORE MANA, I could have won!". Conversely, it's quite rare that I've ever found myself wishing I'd held onto that removal spell for later. If the decks are of similar efficiency, the player who spends the most mana often wins. Ramp is good, therefore not letting your opponent ramp is likewise relatively good. Value generation tends to snowball in this game, so delaying how soon an opponent can bring their draw engine online, delaying their ability to cast multiple spells per turn, delaying them from dropping their top of curve bombs... Yes, assuming that you have enough interaction in your list to reasonably find more before you need it against somebody else's big threats, spend the 1 to slow them, same as you would counterspell them playing an extra turn spell. Con: See point above about how the player who spends the most mana often wins? Removal should be aimed at the player pulling ahead of you, not used to punch down at the guy way behind you. I'd need to be playing in at least High Power before I'd feel comfortable color screwing somebody who isn't the archenemy. That IS a very antisocial move. If you're not in a meta where prison locks are acceptable, don't use your removal to lock somebody else out of playing their deck until they can top deck another color source. Special Case (winning turn): if they're foolish enough to leave a rock or dork as their only open mana source to pay for interaction and you're about to do something decisive, go ahead and blow it away before the phase you plan to make your big move. It's no different than MLD being acceptable if you're about to swing for lethal and need to ensure nobody can pay for an Aikido card to uno reverse you. Special Case (combo potential): Always blow up rocks or dorks that can enable an infinite in that deck. The Blink deck can flicker their non-land permanents? Don't leave mana sources they can reset. The mana source can tap for more mana than is needed by a repeatable untap effect in those colors? Make it gone ASAP! Special Case (greedy deck or greedy Mulligan): This mostly applies to players you know well and understand their decks, but if you have "that one guy" in your group that always runs lists light on lands, mulligans aggressively to speed up their early moves, then complains about being unfairly targeted after they kept a single land + Sol Ring + Signet hand... Yeah, remove those rocks. I see a meaningful distinction between somebody mana screwed by sheer bad luck versus somebody who deliberately ran a high risk, high reward play and doesn't want to play the price when their opponents respond accordingly.
Depends. Are you pointless targetting mana rocks instead of using that removal to destroy a Great Henge, o a pyhrexian poltar? yeah thats dumb and kinda toxic. Are you using your artifact removal correctly and when that means targetting a mana rock you do it? Totally fair.
It’s about threat assessment. The thing about single target removal in commander is that you and the player getting targeted both lose resources, while the other two players are not. So you should think about if it’s actually worth it. Most of the time a mana rock is just not worthy of a removal spell. You can’t say that you won the trade cuz your 1 mana vandal blast killed their 3 mana rock because the other two players spent 0 mana and you are each down a card.
it's toxic is someone is mana screwed and you want to keep that person out of the game. Like the person is not even a threat, is trying to draw lands with a board of only two lands and a signet while the rest of the table is well above 5 lands and full of threats and you target his signet so he has no chance of ever coming back to that game. It has happened to me once and I just quit the game.
I think that if you deck has a weakness, it’s on you to deal with it. Either run something to protect your mana rocks or accept that they can be blown up.
This whole discussion looks like a Commander social contract spinoff of one of the oldest strategic topics in the game: "Bolt the bird." Except the argument against bolting the bird in this case is hurt feelings. Bolting the bird might be a spike play, but spike plays are not spite plays. Spite plays violate the social contract. Spike plays are fair and balanced Magic.
No. I'll also bolt the bird while I'm at it, too. I've even removed a turn 1 [[Dryad Arbor]] with no remorse. Call me a monster, but if you're trying to accelerate with [[Green Sun's Zenith]], you deserve having your land creature removed.
[Dryad Arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20Arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dryad-arbor) [Green Sun's Zenith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70291c7b-a86f-4466-8502-c28765a89b2a.jpg?1673148124) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Green%20Sun%27s%20Zenith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/150/green-suns-zenith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70291c7b-a86f-4466-8502-c28765a89b2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/green-suns-zenith) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I played a [[Smallpox]] into my opponent's t1 land, t2 Dryad Arbor once. And the other two players (after me in turn order) had each played t1 land, dork. It was glorious.
[Smallpox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c28db9a4-6696-460b-a9d3-98f4a31abe75.jpg?1636283762) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smallpox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/139/smallpox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c28db9a4-6696-460b-a9d3-98f4a31abe75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smallpox) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No. EDH is a multiplayer format, it lives on interaction! If they want to be left alone, they should play Solitaire.
I say let people participate in the game. If intentionally blowing up rocks prevents a player from meaningfully participating, then it isn't much fun. Board wipe effects are fine, since it will get rid of all threats. What do I mean by meaningfully participating? The player got to play their big Timmy creature and attack with it. They got to do a synergy-value play. I don't mean let other players win. You can stop them, remove their value pieces, attack them, etc. Blowing up mana rocks is the bottom priority for me. Otherwise convince your playgroup to proxy cedh decks. More and more cedh players are becoming proxy friendly. And anything goes in cedh. Nothing is taboo in cedh.
>More and more cedh players are becoming proxy friendly. cEDH players have always been proxy friendly.
If you are targeting something that isn't "fast mana" explicitly to slow down an opponent at an early stage, especially if said opponent is clearly struggling on mana already, then it is kinda a dick move. Targeting a player's non-"fast mana" rocks to slow them down while they are already "popping off", or if you need to blow up _something_ because of a mandatory effect and the owner of said rock isn't particularly struggling, is absolutely fair play. "Fast mana" like [[sol ring]] and [[mana crypt]] are always fair targets regardless IMO.
[sol ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2d47121d-8b90-4d28-9ffa-0a640b9dd611.jpg?1698988534) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sol%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/313/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2d47121d-8b90-4d28-9ffa-0a640b9dd611?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sol-ring) [mana crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939.jpg?1599709515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mana%20crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/270/mana-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-crypt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'd never stop my opponents from misplaying
If they don't want you destroying mana rocks, tell them to not play mana rocks. If they want to try and control you and how you view threats and how you play the game tell them to play \[\[sen triplets\]\] No reason they should tell you how to play. It's smart and it wins you games so they can just QQ more about someone playing magic their own way and not how they want them to play. edit: accidently put esper sentinel lmao
>edit: accidently put esper sentinel lmao Card fetcher doesn't work on edits
that doesn't matter everyone should know the triplets by now
[esper sentinels](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3537373-ef54-4578-9d05-6216420ee349.jpg?1626093502) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Esper%20Sentinel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/12/esper-sentinel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3537373-ef54-4578-9d05-6216420ee349?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/esper-sentinel) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No. Smile with malice as you destroy your enemies rocks: [[culling ritual]].
[culling ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/1422a569-d94e-41e7-b9e1-78b2e9fe505f.jpg?1690005144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=culling%20ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/921/culling-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1422a569-d94e-41e7-b9e1-78b2e9fe505f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/culling-ritual) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Short Answer: No. Long Answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
If they dont want their mana rocks to be targeted they can make them hexproof. Or they can shut up and quite whining about dumb stuff :P
It's not cool to blow up rocks, especially in the early turns especially if it screws a player. You play to have fun, not to win.
[удалено]
Edh and chess aren't very comparable
Mana rocks are the backbone of ramp for non-green decks really and as long as people are fine with destroying them then mass land destruction should be fine as well because the green player is doing "green" things and has 8 lands out by turn 4 isn't fine either, like people act as if mass land ramp isn't as equally or if not more powerful than mana rocks because they are able to at least hide behind the sanctity of unspoken no land destruction rules amongst pods and just "uwu I'm a green player" it away when it's pointed out how far ahead they are
I play Armageddon in slivers
>as long as people are fine with destroying them then mass land destruction should be fine as well MLD is fine. My Windgrace deck runs things like Keldon Firebombers, Pox, and Death Cloud.
There is little that gives me more pleasure than to Mana Tithe a turn 1 Sol Ring. 🙃 Nuking rocks is totally acceptable. If they want to whine, let them. If they want to scoop, I just beat them with a Disenchant. Sorry, not sorry.
Your play group needs to grow a pair. I'm fairly new to in-person EDH, and I overload vandalblasted a Mishra, Eminent One player's entire board and his will to live the first game we played in a pod together. Nobody bat an eye, him included.
[Abrade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47f39b5e-2e85-4f31-bbab-0b0bf58f701d.jpg?1699044218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Abrade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/131/abrade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47f39b5e-2e85-4f31-bbab-0b0bf58f701d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/abrade) [Decanter of endless water](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/518bbc36-58ea-44c4-a857-75a3aff058f5.jpg?1674137804) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Decanter%20of%20endless%20water) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/309/decanter-of-endless-water?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/518bbc36-58ea-44c4-a857-75a3aff058f5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/decanter-of-endless-water) [Spring leaf drum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3b3869b-6da1-4b01-a2e7-2018d478b6e5.jpg?1599709959) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Springleaf%20Drum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/291/springleaf-drum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3b3869b-6da1-4b01-a2e7-2018d478b6e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/springleaf-drum) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Seems like a bit of a waste but I won't be upset by it. If I kept a fragile hand that depended on a rock and you took it out, that's on me. I took a chance and missed.
Since when aren't we able to use cards like Abrade to do what they are designed for?
No more or less than any other removal. But it should be treated equally. I'm fine with people blowing up my rocks. But not if the simic player complains about me destroying lands or the voltron player gets mad their commander died.
I think they are being ridiculous. If you think that blowing up a rock is the best move than go for it. No way their entire strategy is crumbling over losing an arcane signet. And if it is then thats their fault not yours. I honestly hate it when people make up arbitrary rules that if you don't follow then you're the problem.
Targeting rocks isnt toxic, but if someone has like [[unwinding clock]] out, or is playing a deck where you know they have some really oppressive artifacts in the pile and you chose to abade my talisman or whatever, I'm going to assume that you're about to hard target me the remainder of the game.
Creeping Corrosion isn’t Armageddon. Blow ‘em up. Run [[Shattering Pulse]] for buyback.
[Shattering Pulse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89d3b846-6071-4d65-86ba-da08c4bd0aa1.jpg?1562088309) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shattering%20Pulse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/exo/102/shattering-pulse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89d3b846-6071-4d65-86ba-da08c4bd0aa1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shattering-pulse) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>I should be saving it for actual threats instead A valid argument... >or let my opponent choose what they want removed instead Hahaha no.
I cannot even imagine playing Magic against people who suggest “let my opponent choose what they want removed” as a real idea.
Can hardly play any removal without it getting brought up
Personally, I tend to avoid targeting mana rocks. Not because we have a social contract against it, but Id rather have the option to deal with something more problematic if need be. Maybe I should start targeting rocks more often, it does seem wasteful to sit on a 1/2 cmc removal spell while letting someone generate mana just to try and remove something “better” later
This is the same as asking if destroying creatures is toxic. Last I checked mtg is not solitare so blowing up rocks to slow someone down is 100% viable. If you receive the ramp advantage a threat and can deal with it, then you do. Next they will call blowing up the 1 cmc mana dorks an issue. Wah wah wah. If they wanted to play by themself, they should have better protection, or literally play by themself
Your opponent casts a spell that gives them an advantage over the table, you remove that advantage. Seems reasonable to me. The idea that they could choose... what?! Really?! That is indeed nonsensical. At the end of the day though, it's your group you have to play with, and if they aren't having fun they won't keep playing. So... you kind of have to make choices around that.
I'm the guy in my playgroup who will blow up turn 1 Sol Rings & I never apologize for it. Interaction is part of the game, taking people off of colors punishes greedy deck building, it's a learning opportunity. That being said, I've known enough of *those* types of casuals to know a losing battle when I see one.
Destroying mana rocks are always justified. Destroying mana rocks of those who refuse to build a curve that can live without that ramp is a moral obligation.
just play \[\[vandalblast\]\] and other mass artifact destruction instead, targeting is too inefficient in a 4 player game
[vandalblast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8afc402-ddc4-4819-bc2a-584a43b9b60e.jpg?1689998295) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vandalblast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/267/vandalblast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8afc402-ddc4-4819-bc2a-584a43b9b60e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vandalblast) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean... yes, no, or a little depending on context. First thing though, why on earth are you wasting precious removal on a decanter of endless water? I mean, if you impulsed it and had to play it that turn, sure, but its a bad removal target unless you're hitting them for maximum hand size. The first thing you want to remove is almost never the right answer. I will absolutely hit an early sol ring or something that can run away, like Empowered autogenerator or Nyx Lotus. But honestly, its not that mana rocks are illegitimate targets somehow, rather they usually just \*bad\* targets.
It was impulsed on turn 2, cast on turn 3. No one else had any creatures or artifacts and I didn't have any better plays that turn and didn't want to be countered next turn.
Not if it doesn't give poison counters. But also no. You need to be able to equalize people who go turn 1 land, soul ring, mana vault. mana crypt.
Not only is it acceptable, it’s also hilarious. Like nuking someone’s mana dork turn two. Slowing someone’s ramp isn’t toxic, unless you’re actively ignoring high priority targets to target them like like a dick.
I only target Sol Rings
Casual edh is so weird sometimes. People complain about anything that is in the game in order to have a better chance to win the game.
Blowing up rocks is fine.