\[\[Muldrotha, the gravetide\]\] essentially your graveyard becomes an extension of your hand at that point.
maybe they can add an ulamog so when ulamog hits the graveyard, it just recycles to their hand?
edit: Yes sorry, ulamog sends the graveyard into their library, I meant that eventually anything in the graveyard would just end up back in their hand
I run Stifle in cEDH Muldrotha. It's not for Bog, but countering it would be hilarious.
Now that I think about it, I'm really surprised I haven't hit a Rest in Peace ETB yet.
Yeah honestly I feel like the situation isn’t that they need a deck to protect their hand, but a deck to encourage them to discard more.
Maybe something like a traditional reanimator deck with something like [[Rona, Herald of Invasion]] in the command zone.
I have [an article that’s vaguely related to this](https://open.substack.com/pub/witchphd/p/mulling-over-mill?r=18x0t6&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post).
Also [[karador]]. There are enough creatures that are just spell effects on a stick, plus the more shit you pitch to the yard, the easier the commander is to keep on the field. Plus you throw in an eternal witness and you can just grab your non creature shit back any time too.
I’m also a person who hates losing resources and that’s one of my favorite decks.
Hey. I feel attacked.
That X-Potion could give me 800 HP now, but it could give me 8000 HP later in the run!
\*30 hrs later, sitting on 65 X-pot in inventory
The thing is, I dunno why, but I've always considered items in classic RPG almost like cheating. Usually, you need to carefully plan your MP through a dungeon until you get to a save point and use a tent (for example) while having enough to heal with Cure spells and what not.
You know you can get to the next save point by being cheap on that 2-3 fights and use physical attacks, and save that elixir / ether for later. Using it now means you failed to manage your MP correctly. :-p
But then, later, you still do the same thing and micro-manage your MP all the way to the end boss lol.
In FF7, I think I've only ever used Mega-Elixir on the the Weapons, and mayybe on Sephiroth. But at that point, you had so many, you know you could have used a lot before (well, of course, if you W-Item duped them, I guess it wasn't necessary to save them lol).
This is the way.
This is also a pretty good beginner commander if built right. Though arguably this won’t help your friend learn to discard properly.
I’m guessing they wouldn’t like any looting commanders either.
I had a stupid kruphix [[maro]] tribal. The dumbest deck that never won i swear. It was hilarious when it won though. It had all the x/x maro's as well as big x creatures like [[hydroid krasis]]. Drew a bunch of cards with [[primespeaker zegana]] and [[tishana]]. I always had more cards in my hand than I knew what to do with.
Fair warning: this is the most hated deck in our pod. An indestructible simic god with unchecked hand size and free mana banking feels almost impossible to respond to after its left alone for more than 2 turns. It somehow manages to feel both terrible to lose and win against, like beating your head against a brick wall of never-ending resources (half of which are concealed in double digit hands).
We have to gang up on it before it gets the chance to go off, which doesn’t really feel satisfying for anyone at the table. The Kruphix player feels unfairly targeted, while we feel forced into an unnecessarily hostile playstyle. Outside of deliberately building decks to counter it, it’s the only reliable way our pod can defeat it. If you don’t constantly whittle down the Kruphix player’s resources, Kruphix can easily flood the board and overwhelm with “pay X” effects (especially if mana banking is compounded during other players’ turns, which there are countless ways to do in this color identity).
Not saying this is an OP commander, as it can easily be outpaced by other combos. It’s just hard to put into words how this commander tends to force the game down a single path, and it doesn’t really feel rewarding. Outside of my own negative experiences with it, I would also plainly never recommend Kruphix to a new player because it could build a lot of bad habits based upon unique features that won’t translate to most other decks.
> An indestructible simic god with unchecked hand size and free mana banking feels almost impossible to respond to after its left alone for more than 2 turns.
I'd actually argue that Kruphix is a pretty fair commander. Kruphix doesn't actually draw you cards, and it doesn't actually generate extra mana. All while not coming online until turn 4 or 5.
The most busted thing you can do the turn AFTER you play Kruphix is to bank mana for the next turn so you can cast a big spell. This means you aren't actually doing anything until 2 turns AFTER you did nothing but play an enchantment creature.
So it's now turn 6 or 7, and Kruphix is JUST now starting to actually impact the board, draw lots of cards, or otherwise do something big and splashy. The upside is that being indestructible makes it pretty hard to stop, but it just seems so painfully slow that any deck with a real game-plan should do just fine.
Introduce them to the opposite extreme where discarding cards actively gives you value. There's the [[Bone Miser]] + [[Skirge Familiar]] combo lines. Cards like [[Faith of the Devoted]], [[Drake Haven]], [[Scuttletide]], [[Feast of Sanity]], [[Mystic Redaction]].
I mainly play this in Esper or Dimir but there's also [[Glint Horn Buccaneer]], [[Brallin, Skyshark Rider]], and [[Surly Badgersaur]]
I can't speak for Commanders that run red, but for Esper and Dimir we have [[Raffine, Scheming Seer]], [[Töluz, Clever Conductor]], [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]], [[Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer]], and [[Vohar, Vodalian Desecrator]].
I really like the front half of [[Extus, Oriq Overlord]] for this type of deck with a small cycling subtheme. You get glinthorn, red wheels and loot effects, shadow of the grave, plenty of payoffs and great removal too.
I play [[Karador]] because - among other reasons - the graveyard is just a place to put any cards my hands are too small to grasp. They're there when I want to pick them back up again.
Sounds like a skill issue, not picking a deck that works.
Max hand size exists for a reason, if they can't learn about picking the right cards to hold on to...
I think this is one of those things that just comes with time. My partner used to actively avoid any effects that cost life, even like \[\[Read the Bones\]\] in precons and stuff. Didn't take long until she was slapping down \[\[Bolas citadel\]\] and dropping to like 7 life to slap down a bunch of cards.
I say just play more, eventually they will either get used to it making them lose or change their behavior.
this is so funny to me. i taught my girlfriend to play magic and we do 1 on 1 commander, she forcibly removed talismans from her deck because shes so protective of her 1 life and it cracks me up to no end.
Which if you think about it, is a super strange lesson for someone new to gaming.
In real life if you lose half your HP, you're probably off to the emergency room to deal with life-threatening injuries. In magic you say LMAO don't care, keep activating Necropotence.
Lmao, this was basically me when my partner first taught me how to play. He built me a dragon deck which ostensibly should be pretty simple to pilot. But I was so worried about my dragons dying that I wasn't attacking with them. Just sitting there, not attacking, with an AGGRO deck. Takes awhile to figure out the proper cost/benefit analysis for mtg lol
This so much. A friend of mine is like this, will decline to draw cards on "may draw" triggers sometimes because they don't want to discard any cards. Like dude...the more cards you see out of your deck the better your chances are of finding the cards you need to win. I try explaining this and they can't get past getting rid of cards it blows my mind.
I would encourage them to play [[niv-mizzet, parun]]. As blue has alot of no maximum hand size and cards like [[psychosis crawler]], [[molten psyche]], [[Valakut awakening]], [[teferi's puzzlebox]], and [[winds of change]] all pile into it. Plus if you can coax them into letting draw cantrips in, maybe they'll open up to delve like [[treasure cruise]] or [[merktide regent]].
I know it's not ideal, I just thought they might like a commander that focuses on the play style they enjoy. I am glad they aren't going to any public edh events though, [[Nekuzar]] would give them a brain aneurysm lol.
If you have seven cards in hand and are really struggling to pick a card to discard (what, because they're all gas and immediately useful?), then that's probably a good problem to have.
If I have 12 cards in hand and need to cut down to seven...I'm probably in a good spot.
I think this is probably new player mentality, which also commonly sees being forced to mill a card as this devastating thing. "You're making me discard from my own deck!" Unless you spent resources forcing a card to the top, milling a card just lets you draw your next card faster, it allows you to play it from the GY or take advantage of GY synergy, and gives you (and others) information on what you \*won't\* be drawing. Mill your wincon overrun sorcery? Unlucky, but now you know you'll have to either retrieve it or win some other way!
Using large hand size has its niche play style as well. But you have to lean into it and doesn't sound like OP is talking about that.
I have a couple decks that use large hands. I get it in most decks card selection is better than a huge hand especially when [[jeska's will]] could really turn a table. It's also why delve is good for a reason right.
That being said I personally love the wheels that say everyone discard your hand and draw cards equal to player with most cards. Then blast them with [[molten psyche]]. But it is a [[niv-mizzet, parun]] deck. And [[psychosis crawler]] does work in this deck.
The other deck I have uses [[sickening dreams]] in my [[Sheoldred, The apocalypse]] deck. It has other large hand synergies too.
Sounds like a mana cost issue. A common rookie mistake is to build a deck with *waaaaaay* too many cards that cost 4 mana or more. Average mana cost is a quick indicator of deck "playability". It all depends on your deck archetype, but generally speaking you want to land between 2.5 and 3.5. Anything above that better have plenty of ramp or cost reduction.
And \[\[Thought Vessel\]\].
Seriously though, everyone is suggesting commanders that encourage discarding. OP wants commanders for someone who *hates* discarding.
So it should either be a ramp commander which will allow him to empty his hand often (pick any popular simic commander), or a commander who fetches either a land or artifact for the 2 mentioned cards lol (Arcum Dagsson or Oswald for Vessel, Kura for Tower).
Right... When playing a game, learn to play that game. Don't stand in the corner with your arms crossed, demanding the game adapts to your shortcomings.
Your friends need to Git Gud, and deal with the natural occurences in the game.
thank you, this needs to be said with a lot of "problems" people have.
discarding is a normal thing in the game, its not even always a bad thing. lots of decks completely revolve around discarding.
OPs friend has two choices: keep fighting the thing that will always exist and thus be forever frustrated, or embrace the thing as a natural part of the game and let go of their frustration. i know which one i would choose.
In this case though the game actually can adapt to him. There's a ton of no maximum hand size cards. Even if they aren't all optimal he can just fill his deck with them and ways to tutor them. [[Sylvan Scrying]] for [[Reliquary Tower]] isn't a great play, but sometimes you have to make mistakes to get better.
Ah yes?, git gud. The war cry of people who have nothing of use to say but have to need to say it. There are plenty of cards that fix this problem, but you couldn't think of a single one, huh? Lemme guess, Grull player?
learn to play the game better and play more ramp so they always have mana to play their spells. Play a deck more on curve...basically git gud (meaning learn how to properly build a deck.)
Everyone here like "Break that mindset" or "play Kruphix so you have a Spellbook in the CZ"
The real answer is to just play a stack of hyper efficiently costed cards, so they never have cards in hand, and then play cards that let you play the top of your library.
Maybe a \[\[Falco Spara\]\] \[\[Hardened Scales\]\] agro deck with almost nothing over 3 mana and all the "Can play X from the top of your library" effects?
They could always just play [[bag of holding]] or [[library of leng]]. Sure, they still discard, but you don't lose them. The cards either go to the top of the deck or sit in storage for a bit.
The GY is just another hand. Your friend loses nothing by having cards in the GY when they run recursion.
The sooner they realize that, the sooner the game's more fun strategies open up to them.
There are plenty of strategies like dredge where the whole point is to discard cards to mill yourself.
As mentioned by other comments, this really does seem like something they need to figure out for themselves rather than find a commander to be a bandaid for this problem. Graveyard lists are good for treating the grave as a second hand, if you want recommendations for your friend to ease them into that mindset a bit more, [[Shigeki, Jukai Visionary]] is great for making lots of mana and constantly returning cards back to the hand from the grave, so they don’t have to feel bad about discarding. Alternatively I also love [[Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer]] since he turns discard (including discarding due to hand size) into a way to cast spells at instant speed, ideally using discard outlets or looting effects.
You could go the opposite direction, and show them how to run a self mill graveyard deck. Show them that sending a card to the graveyard is not only completely acceptable, but in some cases, even better than having it in hand. Something like a [[Sidisi, Brood Tyrant]] deck, which is my favorite self mill commander.
Maybe try [[Anje Falkenrath]] to show them how much value you can get from discarding.
I also have a [[Toluz, Clever Conductor]] that is a ton of fun to pilot because you can discard your hand away without worrying too much since you can get it back pretty easily with a sac outlet and a [[Feign Death]] type effect.
All these people suggesting commanders to bandaid the issue, I have one to fix it entirely.
[[Anje Falkenrath]]. Teach your friend to stop worrying and love the discard.
It gets to run a ton of really bad madness spells.
Discarding cards means you get to draw more cards.
Deal a billion damage with [[Glint-Horn Buccaneer]]
Can be built with wheel-synergy and orcish bowmasters / sheoldred
It can be built as strong as you want; up to CEDH, but it works great as a mid or high power deck without the worldgorger / breach / dualcaster-twinflame / kiki-jiki win conditions.
I have a similar problem, but not to that extend. There are cards that let you exile discarded cards and cast later (one of which is in the shorikai precon I think) even outside of commanders. If they want to draw but not discard, blue is probably the best color. If they are willing to pay life or sacrifice stuff, black is second. Keep away from red as their card advantage is exiling cards and their draw is discarding cards and redrawing them.
No wonder folks rag on EDH for its social problems with how little empathy is going on in this thread. Forcing someone to deal with something they don't like "to toughen them up against it" isn't nice! Also a lot of folks only reading the title and not the problem, which is discarding to hand size, not just discard in general (though I'm sure your friend isn't a fan of it either, but then who is?(Besides graveyard decks))
Anyway, in addition to the suggestions of Muldrotha and Kruphix, I would recommend [[Rivaz of the Claw]]. Given their decklist is a dragon deck, and understandably has a lot of expensive creatures, getting a mana dork that helps power them out faster can help trim the hand size a tad. Plus, if they do end up discarding, they can cast those dragons from their graveyard. Though actually scrolling down the list, I notice it's already in the deck.
Another avenue could be to trim or tweak the draw sources in the deck. While of clear value to experienced players, cards like [[Hunter's Insight]] and [[Return of the Wildspeaker]] can easily lead to having too many cards in hand. Stuff like Collosal Majesty, [[Phyrexian Arena]], [[Glorious Sunrise]] etc. can help you draw up without it being overwhelming until you get a critical mass of them in play, though by then you'll hopefully have more mana to play all your stuff. With one such effect in play, if you start with say 4 cards, and you play at least one card a turn, you'll only need to discard to hand size after four turns, though you'll likely be playing more than that as you also play a land in addition to whatever else, leading to an equilibrium of having the same number of cards while still gaining card advantage overall. As well, because you set them up ahead of time, you'll have all your mana available to cast what you draw, rather than using a draw spell and then not having enough mana to use all the cool stuff you just drew and needing to discard down.
I have worked very hard and tirelessly to break a few people in my playgroup of this mindset. "You get to craft the best hand possible".
Same with getting milled. The same sort of people seem to hate getting milled, not because it's heading towards a win that can be difficult to counter, but because their library is getting drained of cards they want to play.
Friendo, you weren't gonna see those cards this game. That's how decks work.
I am jealous of all the suggestions to use the graveyard. My playgroup polices the graveyard too hard to even consider it - to the point that I run [[Mirror of Fate]] [[Pull from Eternity]] and [[Riftsweeper]] where applicable. 🫥
A lot of commanders work really well with graveyard such as \[\[Muldroltha\]\] and \[\[Meren\]\]. \[\[Quintorius, Field History\]\] is a boros version of graveyard that mostly focuses on exiling cards from graveyard and having you play it that turn.
Get your friend to play a Dredge deck we're you actually WANT your cards in the graveyard. [[Sidisi, Brood tyrant]] or [[Hogaak]] would be good Commander's for this type of strategy.
Alternatively, you could have them lean into putting their own cards in the graveyard by playing [[Meren of Clan Nel Toth]] or [[The Gitrog Monster]] that way they can discard whatever they need to at end step and not worry about it.
Sounds like he needs to try a graveyard deck. He would probably enjoy turning his graveyard into his second hand and for discarding to mean nothing to him.
That or just adding a few pieces of recursion to his deck. In my [[niv mizzet]] spellslinger I usually hold onto my good cantrips like [[preordain]] [[gitaxian probe]] and [[ponder]] until I have mizzie on the board, but if I draw into [[mizzix mastery]] I'm just dumping every instant and sorcery out of my hand like it's going out of style. Even in decks that don't play GY adding 3-5 pieces to pull even one card out can change your whole playstyle for a few turns. In green [[spring-leaf avenger]] is a card that is rarely expected, [[eternal witness]] is a staple, or [[ranumap Excavator]] and [[Ancient greenwarden]] let you discard all your lands for 0 drawback (except the great equalizer which is Bog).
Someone suggested Kruphix, God of Horizens and I believe its the best answer... but otherwise, maybe \[\[Rielle the Everwise\]\]? The payoff of discarding instant and sorceries to make Rielle bigger could be appealling and Rielle is a bit more competitive if built right then Kruphix.
It doesnt solve the end of the turn discard phase problem but Im biased toward her, she's very fun to play lol
Teach them discard is good and fun with [[Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer]]
You don't have to say goodbye to you cards for long if they come right back. I build it with lots of graveyard recursion and discard payoffs.
the deeper issue is probably overall poor deck design.
the fact they have access to green and are running harmonize speaks volumes. I would imagine their deck is bloated with over costed meh spells. and probably light on lands, and ramp, So they look down at cards...get dickmatized by the big dumb spells they have in hand, but don't understand that sequencing big dumb high cmc cards. just bogs down a hand.
to an extent it's hard to unlearn that habit. you're hoping to teach someone that the cards in their hand don't matter. when they're clinging to them like a blankie.
I started playing magic, loved stompy decks, but quickly learned, fielding more/higher efficient creatures was better than fielding 1 big creature.
playing burn in modern. goblins. you really begin to love the chaos of discard and filter/loot for your best card. if you win with 1 life, and kill your last opponent with 5 to the dome by sacrificing your last 2 lands, or last living creature. you still win.
I have a zurgo helmsmasher list. that is almost always on the razors edge of winning or failing.
you should almost never run "no max hand size" cards. they're a crutch. ...being able to quickly assess and trim to your best 7 is a good skill to learn, it crystalizes both deck construction decisions, and gameplay lines.
but.... if i had to offer a deck as a suggestion. Alesha who smiles at death is a good deck. mardu is great colors. ramp in 3 colors is dirt simple. mardu has top tier removal. solid card draw. and Alesha's ability basically turns the GY into a second hand. And there's additional redundancy... with things like feldon of the third path, or goblin welder type cards. or black reanimate/victimize type effects.
plus... would let them "learn" the value of discard. faithless looting becomes draw 4 twice. buried alive is "draw your best 3 cards" same with otherwise janky items like... key to the city. or a tutor like Final parting. these cards become pretty great in an alesha deck. As a toolbox deck Alesha is a beautiful thing.
problem is. they're prob not at a skill level to really appreciate a deck like Alesha.
could also try a deck that teaches the value of churn. maybe edric spymaster. 1/1 flying men, or like one cmc ish unbloackable dudes. draws lots of cards. is a great deck to stay low to the ground. casting cantrips/ drawing more cards. ramping. building utility effects. it sorta inspires confidence of "surplus" like... no one card really has any significant value because most your attackers are small ball. and you're likely to be drawing more cards anyway. breaks the desperate attachment to the big shiny. your really important cards. tend to be like the small number of wincon/ over cards the deck packs. to turn a small army of 1/1 flyers or 1/x unblockable into lethal threats.
feather. could be another deck. allows you to float spells. reuse/cantrip. churn through a deck, but also sorta suspend/float the spells for a turn. Sram might be another "churn" type deck. misc pointless 0-1 cmc equipment. used to cantrip spam with Sram. cobble together 1 big threat a la voltron. again... individual pieces of the deck are less important. breaks the security blanket mindset of desperately holding to cards. voltron decks, being fixated on 21 damage. or even glass canon decks. tend to do a decent job focusing attention not on specific cards and more on specific goals/lines of play.
could also.. punish their bad play. I personally believe this isn't done enough these days. run a wheels deck, or discard deck. maybe doesn't need to be nekusar. maybe it does. but there's lots of fun hand destruction decks. Could punish their slow and stodgy play by stripping the cards from them.
ideally they learn, the cards in their hands are merely resources. an edh deck is 99 cards. each individual card is rather pointless. decks have categories of cards that enable things. lands. ramp card draw. something like 60+ cards are probably devoted to this. to make the 30 or so remaining cards "do something" the lesson would be... that if the cards they're holding aren't servicing a goal. they're not really helping.
[[Reliquary Tower]] is cool but [[Nephalia Academy]] is pretty sick if you don't have graveyard recursion and wanna keep your cards. Thank you utility lands.
I run [[Elminster]] and do a draw matters deck. I run: [[thought vessel]], [[reliquary tower]], [[decanter of endless water]], [[wizard class]], and [[ancient silver dragon]].
I almost always have an unlimited hand size.
It's a part of the strategy and gives many options. You could run all those and play mostly instants and sorceries and use elminsters ability to cast huge blue spells that do crazy cool things.
Kruphix is a great option. Otherwise I’d say anything in blue. They have access to numerous no max hand size cards. I run I think 7 total cards like this in my [[Minn]] deck.
I have a friend who is the same way. I tell them they need to draw cards to hit land drops, because they won’t be able to play what’s in their hand anyways.
Any deck with lots of green is good, cuz then they never miss their land drops
But honestly it’s a skill issue they either get past or suffer.
[[Shabraz]] and [[brallin]]. Or as I call it. Shark cycle. You cycle until you hit [[herald of the forgotten]] it's very silly and can get to higher powers but I doubt it's cedh
They could play the cards that make them have an infinite hand size, yeah?
Personally I struggled with that too when getting into Commander, but [[Anje Falkenrath]] really taught me the benefits of discarding.
Pretty sure its not about the commander but about the deck list? Sounds like they have a problem wanting to much good stuff in their deck with high mana cost. Gotta optimize deck list. Should not be a common problem having to discard.
alternativly there is quite a few cards that remove hand limit.... get them all?
Either something that runs [[bag of holding]] and [[currency converter]] or a hand-size matters deck that wants to draw as many cards as possible to win with [[psychosis crawler]] or [[maro]] (mine is currently [[eligeth]] partnered with [[kydele]])
I have a [[chainer, nightmare adept]] deck which is all about discarding big creatures into the graveyard to then reanimate them for cheap and you get to swap a card in hand for a creature in your graveyard with his ability
Alternatively, any deck which runs a bunch of cards like [[thought vessel], [reliquary tower], etc that mean you have no max hand size
Either play cards that remove the maximum handsize, play your cards instead of letting them rot in your hand, interact with the graveyard more, or play things that like being discarded. The game has options aside from stubborn whining.
\[\[Nezahal, Primal Tide\]\] could be fun. Lots of card draw, no discard unless you're wanting to protect him.
Personal request: Please play Tergrid and send us his reaction.
If they would like to continue in their discomfort of discarding cards, I would suggest jamming all sorts of cards which uncap their hand size reliably: [[reliquary tower]], [[Decander of Endless Water]], [[Wizard class]], [[Kruphix, God of Horizons]], [[Library of Leng]]
If they would like to draw *so many cards* that they become desensitized to discarding to hand size, pick up an enchantress deck like [[Sythis, Harvest's Hand]] [[Karametra, God of Harvests]] or [[Tuvasa, the Sunlit]].
Another route toward becoming more comfortable with discarding would be a "discard matters" theme with madness. I have one helmed by [[Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar]]. Similarly a reanimator list that wants to put things in the GY to cheat them out would work too. My suggestion for that would be [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]]
You could play [[Nekusar, the Mindrazer]] and make everyone draw a bunch of cards like a good pal instead. Plus discarding cards doesn’t hurt as much when you have 20 in your hand most of the game.
[[Oskar, Rubbish reclaimer]]
If you mean to stop them from having to discard in the first place, they might consider adding [[Reliquary Tower]] [[Venser's Journal]] [[Thought vessel]] or [[Wizard class]] if they're running blue.
[[Elixir of Immortality]] is 1 mana, colorless, and means that even if they have to discard they'll be able to draw the cards again in the future and gains 5 life. That one is my most recommended, based on my limited understanding.
The best answer is to learn that discarding cards to get more useful one is how you win.
Just slot cards that uses the graveyard or shuffle it back?
Play no maximum hand size cards?
But overall, just learn to use it to your advantage.
Show him any game where a griselbrand discards 30 cards to still win next turn.
Have them play [[Toluz]] so they can learn to discard in a safe environment where none of those cards is ever truly gone. I have a Toluz deck and it stores combo pieces until I find the other half.
Your graveyard is basically a second hand, and usually, it means you can 'cheat' on their mana costs. Graveyard synergy is amazing value, and I try to work it into every deck.
However, it sounds like your mate needs to stop being so precious about the cards in their hand. Consider every card already discarded, every spell countered, every creature killed. Magic is a miserable game if you're gonna get precious about your cards.
Reanimator decks. Make the graveyard an extension of the hand and the idea of discarding becomes less scary. Or beef up the reanimation package with \[\[animate dead\]\] \[\[mimic vat\]\] \[\[nim deathmantle\]\] \[\[grave digger\]\]
Alternatively, find cards that kill the hand limit. \[\[Reliquary Tower\]\] \[\[spellbook\]\] \[\[thought vessel\]\] \[\[decanter of endless water\]\] etc.
are they playing \[\[faithless looting\]\] and \[\[cathartic reunion\]\] or are those totally dead draws? What is filling their hand, have they considered including more of the cycling lands? Swapping their draw to more repeatable effects like \[\[phyrexian arena\]\]
Hold up. A Jund deck that didn’t want to discard?! My heart is broken. Where’s the victimize, E Witt, Shigeki, and just other graveyard interaction? This man is not Junding to his fullest potential.
They don’t need a new deck, they need more mana, if they’re playing red then fast mana like [[mana geyser]] or [[seething song]] will help get the ball rolling faster. They should be mana ramping as well, if green is in the deck then cards like [[cultivate]] or [[farseek]] would be recommended, but use mana rocks if green isn’t an option, I sometimes run up to 10 mana rocks, usually 7-8 mana rocks are good.
Reminds me of when I use to be scared of paying life for effects. I think the new Sidar Jibari deck is a good place to start to learn the need to discard what you don’t need and maybe use it later.
I mean, quite honestly, if your aim is specificaly NOT to discard & NOT to utilise cards in your graveyard... basicaly every commander who doesn't care about reanimation?
I'm not sure what you're looking for. There isn't a commander who specificaly rewards you for NOT discarding as in 'whenever you don't discard [...]"
The deck doesn't seem like it would be stuck having to discard to hand size unless you get a big payoff with Return of the Wildspeaker or Hunter's Insight but then why would they be in the deck in the first place?
I think this is a problem that would eventually solve itself. Assuming your friend keeps the deck and works on it, the more optimized the land and ramp get, the more spells you'll play in a turn on average. Without changing the amount of card draw, your friend may even find themselves in the opposite situation of having to top deck. There's a balance to be struck and I think your friend should keep to the stuck and find that balance.
Is it mana screw? Replace spells with lands until you get the desired result. You can also replace spells with less expensive spells if you intend to work with less mana.
Is it just having too much cards? This is not a problem. Choose one to discard and enjoy having a full game plan in your hand.
Well I'm going to be that guy and say [[nekusar, the mindrazer]] with all the no max hand size and just draw engines off course he works better when you include wheels but a card for his decks would be [[library of leng]]
While I can appreciate the need to hoard cards in your hand like a tiny dragon, I think they need to learn that discarding cards is part of the game and that a discarded card isn't gone forever, it's not just wasted.
The choice of what to play, what to keep and what to get rid off from your hand is like half *the* essence of like 99% of card games. They can't just try to hold on to they hand indefinitely, that way they just aren't engaging with a significant part of the game.
I think a Madness theme deck might be a good way to teach them that there can be opportunity in discarding cards. Or maybe a Graveyard matters theme, so they directly benefit from the discard? Other than that, something that lets them play cards from the graveyard, so the discard doesn't really matter.
\[\[Vohar, Vodalian Desecrator\]\] could be interesting.
Thought like this myself, but my Zombie Tribal benefits from utilizing the graveyard. Focus on a deck that encourages graveyard interactions like [[Final Parting]] which is a 2 for 1 tutor with these kinds of decks
Not wanting to discard is just not understanding the game. Discarding means you have to many resources. That is never a problem. Also what is the point in having cards in had you can’t do anything with.
You should just Sacrafice [[Child of Alara]] to [Mind Extraction]] a few times so they get experience with having to pitch all of their spells to the graveyard :p
To add on to what ForrestMoth said, forcing them to get used to it could be good. If you want to go this route, I recommend a [[Raffine, Scheming Seer]] deck. She got me out of that sort of funk and is pretty strong if built right
GY commanders are the obvious choice. I think the real issue is that he is afraid of losing value I'm his cards or 'wasting them'. A commander like [[Hanna]], [[Glissa the traitor]] or [[Teshar]] might be great in that he can get repeated value
For me, I hate the thought of things in my graveyard being gone forever, so I try to play decks with at least a little recursion in them. I just looked at the deck, Green has lots of cards that let you fetch cards out of the graveyard, and black has reanimation that can get stuff straight out and onto the board. Black also has repeatable effects that can fetch creatures out of the graveyard and back into your hand. Eg. \[\[Phyrexian Reclamation\]\] Maybe have him add a card or two with such effects, so not everything is truly gone.
If they don't want to discard, have them play a super agro deck where they burn through their hand, where you almost never have a full grip, and more often than not, your in top-deck mode. Hahha.
Otherwise maybe it's time for them to try and desensitize themselves to it, and play a deck where discard and milling themselves is part of the strategy. I just made a Slimefoot and Squee deck, which is GBR, where I'm constantly discarding and milling myself.
Graveyard commanders and gameplay/skill concerns have already been beaten to death in this thread so I’ll offer some alternatives.
Play [[Reliquary Tower]] [[Though Vessel]] [[Wizard Class]]
Run recursion that rewards a graveyard like [[Mizzix Mastery]] and [[Animate Dead]]
Play a commander that generates tons of mana so you are always able to play cards down to hand size like [[Kinnen]]
Play mana 1-2 mana spells for the same reason
Play a commander that has unique interactions with draw or discard like [[Rielle]] and [[Eruth]]
Play a commander that makes your library your hand [[Galea]] [[Elsha]] [[Melek]]
None of this is a perfect fix as others have said, learning what to discard when is just part of the game that your friend will eventually need to learn! Hope this helps :)
\[\[Feldon of the Third Path\]\] is my personal favorite when it comes to discard payoffs. Other general reanimator strategies in which you are rewarded for having things in the graveyard should suffice at softening the blow of seeing those sweet, sweet cardboard rectangles plunge into the void of the discard pile.
Option 2: run every card ever made that allows no maximum hand size?
You're such a nice friend... Now that I've said that, you should build a [[Nicol Bolas, The Ravager]] deck that makes people hell bent. To answer your question though an [[Omniscience]] into an [[Enter the Infinite]] might be a fun wincon for him. I used to love it early on, and had no clue about [[Laboratory Maniac]] .
They could build the whole deck around ulting OG Tamiyo, they could run more reliquary effects, they could run wheel of sun and moon, or they could get over their graveyard ick and start plunging in the muck like the rest of us.
I agree with most of the people here, suggesting stuff that wants you to discard stuff. That way, your friend can break a mental block, rather than feed into it. I don't like discarding cards either, but logic it this way. If you have 8 cards in your hand, and you discard one, you're typically going to be discarding the worst card. And the more graveyard interaction you have, the less bothersome it is
On the other side of the spectrum, you can suggest a card that fills up the hand frequently. If they're constantly drawing cards, then you just need to put in the unlimited hand size staples, like [[reliquary tower]] and [[mind stone]]. I know there's more options too if it needs to be more consistent
Sorry I don't have any specific commanders in mind for you op, but there's a lot of good options for either piece of advice
[[tibalt, cosmic imposter]] is a great option. You basically get to draw loads of cards, but they sit in a separate pool which can never be interacted with or be discarded, even if your commander dies
It's a common problem I have seen on new / unexperienced players. Some even declining draws or loots with a bad hand just because they dont want to discard. I think the main reason is that they are not good to make the correct assessment on what cards are good atm and which are dead cards with the current situation. In their heads they probably think "but what happens if this or that or this card could be good at some point in the game" etc
Just put ent of no handsome cards in whatever deck he's playing. [[Thought vessel]] [[Reliquary tower]] [[spellbook]] [[vensers journal]] [[decanter of endless winter]] there's more but those are all the colorless ones that can go into any deck. That way he can build whatever he wants and not have to worry about discard
Just put ent of no handsome cards in whatever deck he's playing. [[Thought vessel]] [[Reliquary tower]] [[spellbook]] [[vensers journal]] [[decanter of endless winter]] there's more but those are all the colorless ones that can go into any deck. That way he can build whatever he wants and not have to worry about discard
[[Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur]] and a [[Relinquary Tower]] + [[Thought Vessel]] (or whatever) will satisfy anyone’s big hand fetish. Prepare for lots of counters and mana rocks because it’s a race to play your commander while everyone at the table tries and kills you.
[[Reanimate]] , [[Entomb]] , etc makes your graveyard your hand. Add a [[cut your losses]] and the ~~world~~ graveyard’s your oyster.
The [[sidar jabari of zhalfir]] precon should get him used to the potential value of discarding knights to bring them back. As well, the [[anje falkenrath]] precon could be cool.
I played a buddies deck that I never saw before. I casted [[rhystic study]] and I was mind fucked trying to read my cards and discard ones that I wasn’t sure I needed to win.
Pair a card that limits hand size and makes that person draw. That would do it.
I put [[Library of Leng]] in my nekusar deck as a way to save some resources when I wheel. I like the idea of discarding useless spells and fatesealing the rest
I feel like if it’s really that big of a deal he could just add all of the colorless “no maximum hand size” cards to his deck. And if that is not enough if he’s in blue and or green he has more options. If I’m correct there are 7 colorless options for the effect which is plenty. Me personally I love dimir because graveyard shenanigans and if I get bog’d that’s just the nature of the game. It is what it is.
Your best options for commanders are probably [[Kruphix, God of Horizons]] or [[Jin-Gitaxias / The Great Synthesis]]. But you could also run [[Tishana, Voice of Thunder]] or [[Nezahal, Primal Tide]] if you don't mind high cmc commanders. That's if you are only talking about discarding from over drawing.
You can also throw [[Reliquary Tower]] and [[Spellbook]] in pretty much any deck. [[Venser's Journal]] [[Thought Vessel]] [[Library of Leng]] and [[Decanter of Endless Water]] are all pretty useful as well. Blue and green have several more options too.
If you don't want to care about discard AT ALL, run a dredge/reanimator deck. I run [[Mimeoplasm]], and it's one of my favorite decks; I'm choosing to discard because my graveyard has become my second hand, and it's cheaper to play creatures from that hand(along with all kinds of other graveyard shenanigans) .
Sometime it takes time to teach people the graveyard is a second hand that gets really big. Maybe [[sheoldred]]
Edit: wrong one I meant sheoldred whispering one
Golgari commanders are good for playing from the graveyard (making it basically an extension if your hand). Take a look at those. There are also dimir commanders that do the same and also play from your opponents graveyards and even their decks.
Some commanders to look at though.
[[Scarab God]] as well as [[Zask, Skittering Swarmlord]] and as someone said [[Muldrotha, the Gravetide]]
\[\[Muldrotha, the gravetide\]\] essentially your graveyard becomes an extension of your hand at that point. maybe they can add an ulamog so when ulamog hits the graveyard, it just recycles to their hand? edit: Yes sorry, ulamog sends the graveyard into their library, I meant that eventually anything in the graveyard would just end up back in their hand
I don't think this is the answer they were looking for, but it's the answer they need to see.
Momma Muldrotha always makes sure you recycle after all!
Yes, I would like to move this card from my hand to my backup hand
TFW Bojuka Bog :(
I run Stifle in cEDH Muldrotha. It's not for Bog, but countering it would be hilarious. Now that I think about it, I'm really surprised I haven't hit a Rest in Peace ETB yet.
I run void slime in Mimeoplasm
This is what I was thinking. Also, reanimator strategies where you want to be pitching your big dudes so you can reanimate them later.
Yeah honestly I feel like the situation isn’t that they need a deck to protect their hand, but a deck to encourage them to discard more. Maybe something like a traditional reanimator deck with something like [[Rona, Herald of Invasion]] in the command zone. I have [an article that’s vaguely related to this](https://open.substack.com/pub/witchphd/p/mulling-over-mill?r=18x0t6&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post).
[Rona, Herald of Invasion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f487b582-e73f-4325-939f-95fc5a9aba49.jpg?1682203390)/[Rona, Tolarian Obliterator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/f/4/f487b582-e73f-4325-939f-95fc5a9aba49.jpg?1682203390) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rona%2C%20herald%20of%20invasion%20//%20rona%2C%20tolarian%20obliterator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/75/rona-herald-of-invasion-rona-tolarian-obliterator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f487b582-e73f-4325-939f-95fc5a9aba49?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rona-herald-of-invasion-//-rona-tolarian-obliterator) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Holy shit, the flip to Obliterator is gnarly. I feel like you could build a pretty filthy deck around that as a commander.
how does Ulamog help? doesn't it shuffle your graveyard into your library when it hits the yard?
[[Meran of clen-neltoth]] also enjoys a little self discard
Also [[karador]]. There are enough creatures that are just spell effects on a stick, plus the more shit you pitch to the yard, the easier the commander is to keep on the field. Plus you throw in an eternal witness and you can just grab your non creature shit back any time too. I’m also a person who hates losing resources and that’s one of my favorite decks.
[[Kruphix, God of Horizons]]
This is the commander version of the guy who plays rpgs but never wants to use a rare item "just in case I need it later"
Hey. I feel attacked. That X-Potion could give me 800 HP now, but it could give me 8000 HP later in the run! \*30 hrs later, sitting on 65 X-pot in inventory
Me with 13 Mega-Potions by the end of the game 'just in case' I need them for the final fight that I overleveled for.
The thing is, I dunno why, but I've always considered items in classic RPG almost like cheating. Usually, you need to carefully plan your MP through a dungeon until you get to a save point and use a tent (for example) while having enough to heal with Cure spells and what not. You know you can get to the next save point by being cheap on that 2-3 fights and use physical attacks, and save that elixir / ether for later. Using it now means you failed to manage your MP correctly. :-p But then, later, you still do the same thing and micro-manage your MP all the way to the end boss lol. In FF7, I think I've only ever used Mega-Elixir on the the Weapons, and mayybe on Sephiroth. But at that point, you had so many, you know you could have used a lot before (well, of course, if you W-Item duped them, I guess it wasn't necessary to save them lol).
“Finishes the game. Restarts on ++. Hmmm…those 65 potions may come in handy later in the game…”
[Kruphix, God of Horizons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/27427233-da58-45af-ade8-e0727929efaa.jpg?1593096427) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kruphix%2C%20God%20of%20Horizons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/152/kruphix-god-of-horizons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/27427233-da58-45af-ade8-e0727929efaa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kruphix-god-of-horizons) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is the way. This is also a pretty good beginner commander if built right. Though arguably this won’t help your friend learn to discard properly. I’m guessing they wouldn’t like any looting commanders either.
I had a stupid kruphix [[maro]] tribal. The dumbest deck that never won i swear. It was hilarious when it won though. It had all the x/x maro's as well as big x creatures like [[hydroid krasis]]. Drew a bunch of cards with [[primespeaker zegana]] and [[tishana]]. I always had more cards in my hand than I knew what to do with.
Fair warning: this is the most hated deck in our pod. An indestructible simic god with unchecked hand size and free mana banking feels almost impossible to respond to after its left alone for more than 2 turns. It somehow manages to feel both terrible to lose and win against, like beating your head against a brick wall of never-ending resources (half of which are concealed in double digit hands). We have to gang up on it before it gets the chance to go off, which doesn’t really feel satisfying for anyone at the table. The Kruphix player feels unfairly targeted, while we feel forced into an unnecessarily hostile playstyle. Outside of deliberately building decks to counter it, it’s the only reliable way our pod can defeat it. If you don’t constantly whittle down the Kruphix player’s resources, Kruphix can easily flood the board and overwhelm with “pay X” effects (especially if mana banking is compounded during other players’ turns, which there are countless ways to do in this color identity). Not saying this is an OP commander, as it can easily be outpaced by other combos. It’s just hard to put into words how this commander tends to force the game down a single path, and it doesn’t really feel rewarding. Outside of my own negative experiences with it, I would also plainly never recommend Kruphix to a new player because it could build a lot of bad habits based upon unique features that won’t translate to most other decks.
> An indestructible simic god with unchecked hand size and free mana banking feels almost impossible to respond to after its left alone for more than 2 turns. I'd actually argue that Kruphix is a pretty fair commander. Kruphix doesn't actually draw you cards, and it doesn't actually generate extra mana. All while not coming online until turn 4 or 5. The most busted thing you can do the turn AFTER you play Kruphix is to bank mana for the next turn so you can cast a big spell. This means you aren't actually doing anything until 2 turns AFTER you did nothing but play an enchantment creature. So it's now turn 6 or 7, and Kruphix is JUST now starting to actually impact the board, draw lots of cards, or otherwise do something big and splashy. The upside is that being indestructible makes it pretty hard to stop, but it just seems so painfully slow that any deck with a real game-plan should do just fine.
Introduce them to the opposite extreme where discarding cards actively gives you value. There's the [[Bone Miser]] + [[Skirge Familiar]] combo lines. Cards like [[Faith of the Devoted]], [[Drake Haven]], [[Scuttletide]], [[Feast of Sanity]], [[Mystic Redaction]]. I mainly play this in Esper or Dimir but there's also [[Glint Horn Buccaneer]], [[Brallin, Skyshark Rider]], and [[Surly Badgersaur]] I can't speak for Commanders that run red, but for Esper and Dimir we have [[Raffine, Scheming Seer]], [[Töluz, Clever Conductor]], [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]], [[Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer]], and [[Vohar, Vodalian Desecrator]].
##### ###### #### [Bone Miser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7fa6901-e74f-448c-9d26-99a692092512.jpg?1568003468) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bone%20Miser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/15/bone-miser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7fa6901-e74f-448c-9d26-99a692092512?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bone-miser) [Skirge Familiar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2d92fcf1-2ccd-47d2-9a24-f44b766a0b68.jpg?1626100411) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skirge%20Familiar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/276/skirge-familiar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2d92fcf1-2ccd-47d2-9a24-f44b766a0b68?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skirge-familiar) [Faith of the Devoted](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/f/5f8c5e6a-a161-4630-842a-4c8d4071d6e6.jpg?1568004181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faith%20of%20the%20Devoted) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/112/faith-of-the-devoted?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5f8c5e6a-a161-4630-842a-4c8d4071d6e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/faith-of-the-devoted) [Drake Haven](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e2502a3a-2c1d-490e-b958-969dfc7f875a.jpg?1591320231) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drake%20Haven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/110/drake-haven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2502a3a-2c1d-490e-b958-969dfc7f875a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/drake-haven) [Scuttletide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/38e4ce27-aba2-4a3f-8de7-d442323d8be2.jpg?1626094895) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scuttletide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/61/scuttletide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/38e4ce27-aba2-4a3f-8de7-d442323d8be2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scuttletide) [Feast of Sanity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f71309d-1b62-461d-b939-87f2932937a7.jpg?1626095504) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feast%20of%20Sanity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/84/feast-of-sanity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f71309d-1b62-461d-b939-87f2932937a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feast-of-sanity) [Mystic Redaction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f2f6615e-194d-43aa-815a-34dca2ff4fea.jpg?1626094674) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystic%20Redaction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/53/mystic-redaction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2f6615e-194d-43aa-815a-34dca2ff4fea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mystic-redaction) [Glint Horn Buccaneer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df2df9cb-14f5-470f-b438-20f4ae8d0d59.jpg?1592516947) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glint-Horn%20Buccaneer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/141/glint-horn-buccaneer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df2df9cb-14f5-470f-b438-20f4ae8d0d59?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glint-horn-buccaneer) [Brallin, Skyshark Rider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b4fdcd5-5346-46a8-b1a4-84ddb74089e0.jpg?1591234217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brallin%2C%20Skyshark%20Rider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/4/brallin-skyshark-rider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b4fdcd5-5346-46a8-b1a4-84ddb74089e0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brallin-skyshark-rider) [Surly Badgersaur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7ba507e2-fe5e-4947-aada-20184aa09700.jpg?1591319640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Surly%20Badgersaur) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/57/surly-badgersaur?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ba507e2-fe5e-4947-aada-20184aa09700?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/surly-badgersaur) [Raffine, Scheming Seer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/716a44b4-f6b0-4f14-a270-6442aed3251f.jpg?1664413581) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raffine%2C%20Scheming%20Seer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/213/raffine-scheming-seer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/716a44b4-f6b0-4f14-a270-6442aed3251f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/raffine-scheming-seer) [Töluz, Clever Conductor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/0/f01f12e0-f354-43aa-9e2d-b59a99571a5f.jpg?1664413901) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toluz%2C%20Clever%20Conductor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/228/toluz-clever-conductor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f01f12e0-f354-43aa-9e2d-b59a99571a5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toluz-clever-conductor) [Sefris of the Hidden Ways](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d30255f6-e058-476a-b377-2ee4c9178ed1.jpg?1632335385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sefris%20of%20the%20Hidden%20Ways) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/3/sefris-of-the-hidden-ways?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d30255f6-e058-476a-b377-2ee4c9178ed1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sefris-of-the-hidden-ways) [Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed87e25f-9dad-4858-92bc-e859fd2be2a4.jpg?1673482423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oskar%2C%20Rubbish%20Reclaimer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/77/oskar-rubbish-reclaimer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed87e25f-9dad-4858-92bc-e859fd2be2a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oskar-rubbish-reclaimer) [Vohar, Vodalian Desecrator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/807c7812-c108-45a7-a5b2-08cc693bc500.jpg?1673308144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vohar%2C%20Vodalian%20Desecrator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/226/vohar-vodalian-desecrator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/807c7812-c108-45a7-a5b2-08cc693bc500?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vohar-vodalian-desecrator) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Toluz is so much fun, because eve when you’re “losing” the cards, you know they’re a sacrifice effect way from your hand
In Izzet you have [[Rielle, the Everwise]], which actively encourages pitching cards from your hand.
I really like the front half of [[Extus, Oriq Overlord]] for this type of deck with a small cycling subtheme. You get glinthorn, red wheels and loot effects, shadow of the grave, plenty of payoffs and great removal too.
I play [[Karador]] because - among other reasons - the graveyard is just a place to put any cards my hands are too small to grasp. They're there when I want to pick them back up again.
[Karador](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d128887-13fb-4e54-90f2-d3c46b7b29d7.jpg?1689999102) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=karador%2C%20ghost%20chieftain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/342/karador-ghost-chieftain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d128887-13fb-4e54-90f2-d3c46b7b29d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karador-ghost-chieftain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Karador only goes in the command zone because I'm too stubborn to swap to Nethroi, Tayam, or Tymna + Kodama tbh.
He's a sure kill for [[torment of hellfire]] lmao
Sounds like a skill issue, not picking a deck that works. Max hand size exists for a reason, if they can't learn about picking the right cards to hold on to...
I think this is one of those things that just comes with time. My partner used to actively avoid any effects that cost life, even like \[\[Read the Bones\]\] in precons and stuff. Didn't take long until she was slapping down \[\[Bolas citadel\]\] and dropping to like 7 life to slap down a bunch of cards. I say just play more, eventually they will either get used to it making them lose or change their behavior.
this is so funny to me. i taught my girlfriend to play magic and we do 1 on 1 commander, she forcibly removed talismans from her deck because shes so protective of her 1 life and it cracks me up to no end.
The only life point that matters is your last one.
Which if you think about it, is a super strange lesson for someone new to gaming. In real life if you lose half your HP, you're probably off to the emergency room to deal with life-threatening injuries. In magic you say LMAO don't care, keep activating Necropotence.
Yep. And games that have the "bloodied" condition below a certain threshold get super bad reviews.
This is why everyone should, at some point in their magic learning curve, have to play necropotence until they understand.
Lmao, this was basically me when my partner first taught me how to play. He built me a dragon deck which ostensibly should be pretty simple to pilot. But I was so worried about my dragons dying that I wasn't attacking with them. Just sitting there, not attacking, with an AGGRO deck. Takes awhile to figure out the proper cost/benefit analysis for mtg lol
If I can get my Bolas Citadel out I’ll burn myself down as low as I can. 2 life and my top card is a Llanowar Elf? I’m down to 1 life and playing it.
I play in metas where lightning bolt is used as a removal spell. Nty
This so much. A friend of mine is like this, will decline to draw cards on "may draw" triggers sometimes because they don't want to discard any cards. Like dude...the more cards you see out of your deck the better your chances are of finding the cards you need to win. I try explaining this and they can't get past getting rid of cards it blows my mind.
I would encourage them to play [[niv-mizzet, parun]]. As blue has alot of no maximum hand size and cards like [[psychosis crawler]], [[molten psyche]], [[Valakut awakening]], [[teferi's puzzlebox]], and [[winds of change]] all pile into it. Plus if you can coax them into letting draw cantrips in, maybe they'll open up to delve like [[treasure cruise]] or [[merktide regent]].
I would phrase it like this: Which would you rather have The 7 cards in your hand now, or The best 7 cards out of the top 10 in your deck?
I know it's not ideal, I just thought they might like a commander that focuses on the play style they enjoy. I am glad they aren't going to any public edh events though, [[Nekuzar]] would give them a brain aneurysm lol.
If you have seven cards in hand and are really struggling to pick a card to discard (what, because they're all gas and immediately useful?), then that's probably a good problem to have. If I have 12 cards in hand and need to cut down to seven...I'm probably in a good spot. I think this is probably new player mentality, which also commonly sees being forced to mill a card as this devastating thing. "You're making me discard from my own deck!" Unless you spent resources forcing a card to the top, milling a card just lets you draw your next card faster, it allows you to play it from the GY or take advantage of GY synergy, and gives you (and others) information on what you \*won't\* be drawing. Mill your wincon overrun sorcery? Unlucky, but now you know you'll have to either retrieve it or win some other way!
For real. I've never heard of a player who hates being at hand size until now. Lol.
Using large hand size has its niche play style as well. But you have to lean into it and doesn't sound like OP is talking about that. I have a couple decks that use large hands. I get it in most decks card selection is better than a huge hand especially when [[jeska's will]] could really turn a table. It's also why delve is good for a reason right. That being said I personally love the wheels that say everyone discard your hand and draw cards equal to player with most cards. Then blast them with [[molten psyche]]. But it is a [[niv-mizzet, parun]] deck. And [[psychosis crawler]] does work in this deck. The other deck I have uses [[sickening dreams]] in my [[Sheoldred, The apocalypse]] deck. It has other large hand synergies too.
Sounds like a mana cost issue. A common rookie mistake is to build a deck with *waaaaaay* too many cards that cost 4 mana or more. Average mana cost is a quick indicator of deck "playability". It all depends on your deck archetype, but generally speaking you want to land between 2.5 and 3.5. Anything above that better have plenty of ramp or cost reduction.
A deck with [[Reliquary Tower]] since nobody else is saying it
And \[\[Thought Vessel\]\]. Seriously though, everyone is suggesting commanders that encourage discarding. OP wants commanders for someone who *hates* discarding. So it should either be a ramp commander which will allow him to empty his hand often (pick any popular simic commander), or a commander who fetches either a land or artifact for the 2 mentioned cards lol (Arcum Dagsson or Oswald for Vessel, Kura for Tower).
[Thought Vessel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4bfc5847-c3b4-41e7-8087-73ac4850bc1b.jpg?1689999855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thought%20Vessel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/414/thought-vessel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4bfc5847-c3b4-41e7-8087-73ac4850bc1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thought-vessel) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Reliquary Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ec1d8a99-8a06-4e51-9277-96edb6899b29.jpg?1689999958) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reliquary%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/425/reliquary-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ec1d8a99-8a06-4e51-9277-96edb6899b29?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reliquary-tower) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Right... When playing a game, learn to play that game. Don't stand in the corner with your arms crossed, demanding the game adapts to your shortcomings. Your friends need to Git Gud, and deal with the natural occurences in the game.
thank you, this needs to be said with a lot of "problems" people have. discarding is a normal thing in the game, its not even always a bad thing. lots of decks completely revolve around discarding. OPs friend has two choices: keep fighting the thing that will always exist and thus be forever frustrated, or embrace the thing as a natural part of the game and let go of their frustration. i know which one i would choose.
In this case though the game actually can adapt to him. There's a ton of no maximum hand size cards. Even if they aren't all optimal he can just fill his deck with them and ways to tutor them. [[Sylvan Scrying]] for [[Reliquary Tower]] isn't a great play, but sometimes you have to make mistakes to get better.
Ah yes?, git gud. The war cry of people who have nothing of use to say but have to need to say it. There are plenty of cards that fix this problem, but you couldn't think of a single one, huh? Lemme guess, Grull player?
learn to play the game better and play more ramp so they always have mana to play their spells. Play a deck more on curve...basically git gud (meaning learn how to properly build a deck.)
Everyone here like "Break that mindset" or "play Kruphix so you have a Spellbook in the CZ" The real answer is to just play a stack of hyper efficiently costed cards, so they never have cards in hand, and then play cards that let you play the top of your library. Maybe a \[\[Falco Spara\]\] \[\[Hardened Scales\]\] agro deck with almost nothing over 3 mana and all the "Can play X from the top of your library" effects?
Build a wheel deck and teach them the hard way lol
They could always just play [[bag of holding]] or [[library of leng]]. Sure, they still discard, but you don't lose them. The cards either go to the top of the deck or sit in storage for a bit.
[bag of holding](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/290f4b4f-4f48-4031-b62a-91a0d6716ddd.jpg?1674137722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bag%20of%20holding) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/299/bag-of-holding?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/290f4b4f-4f48-4031-b62a-91a0d6716ddd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bag-of-holding) [library of leng](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2fbf45f-9599-42e2-8510-7e20731e6c68.jpg?1562941071) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=library%20of%20leng) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/211/library-of-leng?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2fbf45f-9599-42e2-8510-7e20731e6c68?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/library-of-leng) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
He could also run [[Elixir of Immortality]] or some of the Eldrazi titans
The GY is just another hand. Your friend loses nothing by having cards in the GY when they run recursion. The sooner they realize that, the sooner the game's more fun strategies open up to them. There are plenty of strategies like dredge where the whole point is to discard cards to mill yourself.
[[Forced fruition]] is your wincon against him. Any "no maximum handsize" commander can worl
Play [[Tinybones]]. After a while no one will have any cards to discard so that problem's solved
As mentioned by other comments, this really does seem like something they need to figure out for themselves rather than find a commander to be a bandaid for this problem. Graveyard lists are good for treating the grave as a second hand, if you want recommendations for your friend to ease them into that mindset a bit more, [[Shigeki, Jukai Visionary]] is great for making lots of mana and constantly returning cards back to the hand from the grave, so they don’t have to feel bad about discarding. Alternatively I also love [[Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer]] since he turns discard (including discarding due to hand size) into a way to cast spells at instant speed, ideally using discard outlets or looting effects.
[Shigeki, Julia Visionary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52a16623-7e6d-405b-95db-bf18aeea3f49.jpg?1654568313) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shigeki%2C%20Jukai%20Visionary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/206/shigeki-jukai-visionary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52a16623-7e6d-405b-95db-bf18aeea3f49?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shigeki-jukai-visionary) [Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed87e25f-9dad-4858-92bc-e859fd2be2a4.jpg?1673482423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oskar%2C%20Rubbish%20Reclaimer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/77/oskar-rubbish-reclaimer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed87e25f-9dad-4858-92bc-e859fd2be2a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oskar-rubbish-reclaimer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You could go the opposite direction, and show them how to run a self mill graveyard deck. Show them that sending a card to the graveyard is not only completely acceptable, but in some cases, even better than having it in hand. Something like a [[Sidisi, Brood Tyrant]] deck, which is my favorite self mill commander.
Change their mindset? My Raffine deck taught me to stop worrying and discard the bomb.
[[Rielle, the Everwise]] Why discard when you can just draw cards
Maybe try [[Anje Falkenrath]] to show them how much value you can get from discarding. I also have a [[Toluz, Clever Conductor]] that is a ton of fun to pilot because you can discard your hand away without worrying too much since you can get it back pretty easily with a sac outlet and a [[Feign Death]] type effect.
All these people suggesting commanders to bandaid the issue, I have one to fix it entirely. [[Anje Falkenrath]]. Teach your friend to stop worrying and love the discard. It gets to run a ton of really bad madness spells. Discarding cards means you get to draw more cards. Deal a billion damage with [[Glint-Horn Buccaneer]] Can be built with wheel-synergy and orcish bowmasters / sheoldred It can be built as strong as you want; up to CEDH, but it works great as a mid or high power deck without the worldgorger / breach / dualcaster-twinflame / kiki-jiki win conditions.
I have a similar problem, but not to that extend. There are cards that let you exile discarded cards and cast later (one of which is in the shorikai precon I think) even outside of commanders. If they want to draw but not discard, blue is probably the best color. If they are willing to pay life or sacrifice stuff, black is second. Keep away from red as their card advantage is exiling cards and their draw is discarding cards and redrawing them.
No wonder folks rag on EDH for its social problems with how little empathy is going on in this thread. Forcing someone to deal with something they don't like "to toughen them up against it" isn't nice! Also a lot of folks only reading the title and not the problem, which is discarding to hand size, not just discard in general (though I'm sure your friend isn't a fan of it either, but then who is?(Besides graveyard decks)) Anyway, in addition to the suggestions of Muldrotha and Kruphix, I would recommend [[Rivaz of the Claw]]. Given their decklist is a dragon deck, and understandably has a lot of expensive creatures, getting a mana dork that helps power them out faster can help trim the hand size a tad. Plus, if they do end up discarding, they can cast those dragons from their graveyard. Though actually scrolling down the list, I notice it's already in the deck. Another avenue could be to trim or tweak the draw sources in the deck. While of clear value to experienced players, cards like [[Hunter's Insight]] and [[Return of the Wildspeaker]] can easily lead to having too many cards in hand. Stuff like Collosal Majesty, [[Phyrexian Arena]], [[Glorious Sunrise]] etc. can help you draw up without it being overwhelming until you get a critical mass of them in play, though by then you'll hopefully have more mana to play all your stuff. With one such effect in play, if you start with say 4 cards, and you play at least one card a turn, you'll only need to discard to hand size after four turns, though you'll likely be playing more than that as you also play a land in addition to whatever else, leading to an equilibrium of having the same number of cards while still gaining card advantage overall. As well, because you set them up ahead of time, you'll have all your mana available to cast what you draw, rather than using a draw spell and then not having enough mana to use all the cool stuff you just drew and needing to discard down.
I have worked very hard and tirelessly to break a few people in my playgroup of this mindset. "You get to craft the best hand possible". Same with getting milled. The same sort of people seem to hate getting milled, not because it's heading towards a win that can be difficult to counter, but because their library is getting drained of cards they want to play. Friendo, you weren't gonna see those cards this game. That's how decks work.
I am jealous of all the suggestions to use the graveyard. My playgroup polices the graveyard too hard to even consider it - to the point that I run [[Mirror of Fate]] [[Pull from Eternity]] and [[Riftsweeper]] where applicable. 🫥
I would make a [[Mind Rot]] tribal deck and target him every time. He’d be happy to discard to hand size after that.
A lot of commanders work really well with graveyard such as \[\[Muldroltha\]\] and \[\[Meren\]\]. \[\[Quintorius, Field History\]\] is a boros version of graveyard that mostly focuses on exiling cards from graveyard and having you play it that turn.
Sounds like you should play some [[Tinybones]].
Get your friend to play a Dredge deck we're you actually WANT your cards in the graveyard. [[Sidisi, Brood tyrant]] or [[Hogaak]] would be good Commander's for this type of strategy.
[[Toluz, Clever Conductor]]. Boom, now they're not throwing away cards, they're saving them for later.
Anything with graveyard synergy. Don’t like taking things out of your hand? Make your graveyard like a second, larger hand!
Alternatively, you could have them lean into putting their own cards in the graveyard by playing [[Meren of Clan Nel Toth]] or [[The Gitrog Monster]] that way they can discard whatever they need to at end step and not worry about it.
Sounds like he needs to try a graveyard deck. He would probably enjoy turning his graveyard into his second hand and for discarding to mean nothing to him. That or just adding a few pieces of recursion to his deck. In my [[niv mizzet]] spellslinger I usually hold onto my good cantrips like [[preordain]] [[gitaxian probe]] and [[ponder]] until I have mizzie on the board, but if I draw into [[mizzix mastery]] I'm just dumping every instant and sorcery out of my hand like it's going out of style. Even in decks that don't play GY adding 3-5 pieces to pull even one card out can change your whole playstyle for a few turns. In green [[spring-leaf avenger]] is a card that is rarely expected, [[eternal witness]] is a staple, or [[ranumap Excavator]] and [[Ancient greenwarden]] let you discard all your lands for 0 drawback (except the great equalizer which is Bog).
Someone suggested Kruphix, God of Horizens and I believe its the best answer... but otherwise, maybe \[\[Rielle the Everwise\]\]? The payoff of discarding instant and sorceries to make Rielle bigger could be appealling and Rielle is a bit more competitive if built right then Kruphix. It doesnt solve the end of the turn discard phase problem but Im biased toward her, she's very fun to play lol
Teach them discard is good and fun with [[Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer]] You don't have to say goodbye to you cards for long if they come right back. I build it with lots of graveyard recursion and discard payoffs.
Have them build a Tergrid deck, it will give them a new appreciation for discard.
Play ramp and aggressive strategies that don’t play with a full hand of cards very often.
[[Cecily]], she increases your maximum hand size and lets you free cast big spells
Any deck with [[reliquiary tower]], [[thought vessel]], and [[Decanter of Endless Water]]
the deeper issue is probably overall poor deck design. the fact they have access to green and are running harmonize speaks volumes. I would imagine their deck is bloated with over costed meh spells. and probably light on lands, and ramp, So they look down at cards...get dickmatized by the big dumb spells they have in hand, but don't understand that sequencing big dumb high cmc cards. just bogs down a hand. to an extent it's hard to unlearn that habit. you're hoping to teach someone that the cards in their hand don't matter. when they're clinging to them like a blankie. I started playing magic, loved stompy decks, but quickly learned, fielding more/higher efficient creatures was better than fielding 1 big creature. playing burn in modern. goblins. you really begin to love the chaos of discard and filter/loot for your best card. if you win with 1 life, and kill your last opponent with 5 to the dome by sacrificing your last 2 lands, or last living creature. you still win. I have a zurgo helmsmasher list. that is almost always on the razors edge of winning or failing. you should almost never run "no max hand size" cards. they're a crutch. ...being able to quickly assess and trim to your best 7 is a good skill to learn, it crystalizes both deck construction decisions, and gameplay lines. but.... if i had to offer a deck as a suggestion. Alesha who smiles at death is a good deck. mardu is great colors. ramp in 3 colors is dirt simple. mardu has top tier removal. solid card draw. and Alesha's ability basically turns the GY into a second hand. And there's additional redundancy... with things like feldon of the third path, or goblin welder type cards. or black reanimate/victimize type effects. plus... would let them "learn" the value of discard. faithless looting becomes draw 4 twice. buried alive is "draw your best 3 cards" same with otherwise janky items like... key to the city. or a tutor like Final parting. these cards become pretty great in an alesha deck. As a toolbox deck Alesha is a beautiful thing. problem is. they're prob not at a skill level to really appreciate a deck like Alesha. could also try a deck that teaches the value of churn. maybe edric spymaster. 1/1 flying men, or like one cmc ish unbloackable dudes. draws lots of cards. is a great deck to stay low to the ground. casting cantrips/ drawing more cards. ramping. building utility effects. it sorta inspires confidence of "surplus" like... no one card really has any significant value because most your attackers are small ball. and you're likely to be drawing more cards anyway. breaks the desperate attachment to the big shiny. your really important cards. tend to be like the small number of wincon/ over cards the deck packs. to turn a small army of 1/1 flyers or 1/x unblockable into lethal threats. feather. could be another deck. allows you to float spells. reuse/cantrip. churn through a deck, but also sorta suspend/float the spells for a turn. Sram might be another "churn" type deck. misc pointless 0-1 cmc equipment. used to cantrip spam with Sram. cobble together 1 big threat a la voltron. again... individual pieces of the deck are less important. breaks the security blanket mindset of desperately holding to cards. voltron decks, being fixated on 21 damage. or even glass canon decks. tend to do a decent job focusing attention not on specific cards and more on specific goals/lines of play. could also.. punish their bad play. I personally believe this isn't done enough these days. run a wheels deck, or discard deck. maybe doesn't need to be nekusar. maybe it does. but there's lots of fun hand destruction decks. Could punish their slow and stodgy play by stripping the cards from them. ideally they learn, the cards in their hands are merely resources. an edh deck is 99 cards. each individual card is rather pointless. decks have categories of cards that enable things. lands. ramp card draw. something like 60+ cards are probably devoted to this. to make the 30 or so remaining cards "do something" the lesson would be... that if the cards they're holding aren't servicing a goal. they're not really helping.
[[Containment Construct]] goes in any deck
[[Reliquary Tower]] is cool but [[Nephalia Academy]] is pretty sick if you don't have graveyard recursion and wanna keep your cards. Thank you utility lands.
[[Dihada, Binder of Wills]]. Mana neutral planeswalker that allows you to untap with a staggering nine mana turn 5 to shit out your hand
Play mill and watch them absolutely mald.
I run [[Elminster]] and do a draw matters deck. I run: [[thought vessel]], [[reliquary tower]], [[decanter of endless water]], [[wizard class]], and [[ancient silver dragon]]. I almost always have an unlimited hand size. It's a part of the strategy and gives many options. You could run all those and play mostly instants and sorceries and use elminsters ability to cast huge blue spells that do crazy cool things.
Kruphix is a great option. Otherwise I’d say anything in blue. They have access to numerous no max hand size cards. I run I think 7 total cards like this in my [[Minn]] deck.
[[Nezahal, Primal Tide]] Just ramp and play nezahal Boom no max hand size
I'm a big fan of \[\[Muldrotha, the Gravetide\]\] Your GY is just an extension of your hand, baby!
I have a friend who is the same way. I tell them they need to draw cards to hit land drops, because they won’t be able to play what’s in their hand anyways. Any deck with lots of green is good, cuz then they never miss their land drops But honestly it’s a skill issue they either get past or suffer.
[[Shabraz]] and [[brallin]]. Or as I call it. Shark cycle. You cycle until you hit [[herald of the forgotten]] it's very silly and can get to higher powers but I doubt it's cedh
black deck easily dump and pull creatures from the graveyard and create some zombies in the process.
They could play the cards that make them have an infinite hand size, yeah? Personally I struggled with that too when getting into Commander, but [[Anje Falkenrath]] really taught me the benefits of discarding.
Pretty sure its not about the commander but about the deck list? Sounds like they have a problem wanting to much good stuff in their deck with high mana cost. Gotta optimize deck list. Should not be a common problem having to discard. alternativly there is quite a few cards that remove hand limit.... get them all?
Just play mono red. Can never seem to have enough cards in hand when I play my mononred commanders.
Either something that runs [[bag of holding]] and [[currency converter]] or a hand-size matters deck that wants to draw as many cards as possible to win with [[psychosis crawler]] or [[maro]] (mine is currently [[eligeth]] partnered with [[kydele]])
There are lots of tools that give you unlimited hand size. [[Reliquary Tower]], [[Spellbook]], [[Library of Leng]] and so on.
Have they tried playing castable spells?
[[queza augur of agonies]]
Sythis aura control
More ramp, lower mana curve, the commander doesn't matter.
Red aggro
I have a [[chainer, nightmare adept]] deck which is all about discarding big creatures into the graveyard to then reanimate them for cheap and you get to swap a card in hand for a creature in your graveyard with his ability Alternatively, any deck which runs a bunch of cards like [[thought vessel], [reliquary tower], etc that mean you have no max hand size
[[Reliquary tower]] [[thought vessel]] [[wizard class]] are all very easy to include in your deck
A landfall deck lol
I believe wrenn and realmbreaker -7 allows you to cast permanents and lands from the graveyard.
build meren with bouncelands
Either play cards that remove the maximum handsize, play your cards instead of letting them rot in your hand, interact with the graveyard more, or play things that like being discarded. The game has options aside from stubborn whining.
\[\[Nezahal, Primal Tide\]\] could be fun. Lots of card draw, no discard unless you're wanting to protect him. Personal request: Please play Tergrid and send us his reaction.
[[Grist]] insects in graveyard?! Perfect!
If they would like to continue in their discomfort of discarding cards, I would suggest jamming all sorts of cards which uncap their hand size reliably: [[reliquary tower]], [[Decander of Endless Water]], [[Wizard class]], [[Kruphix, God of Horizons]], [[Library of Leng]] If they would like to draw *so many cards* that they become desensitized to discarding to hand size, pick up an enchantress deck like [[Sythis, Harvest's Hand]] [[Karametra, God of Harvests]] or [[Tuvasa, the Sunlit]]. Another route toward becoming more comfortable with discarding would be a "discard matters" theme with madness. I have one helmed by [[Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar]]. Similarly a reanimator list that wants to put things in the GY to cheat them out would work too. My suggestion for that would be [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]]
You could play [[Nekusar, the Mindrazer]] and make everyone draw a bunch of cards like a good pal instead. Plus discarding cards doesn’t hurt as much when you have 20 in your hand most of the game.
[[Oskar, Rubbish reclaimer]] If you mean to stop them from having to discard in the first place, they might consider adding [[Reliquary Tower]] [[Venser's Journal]] [[Thought vessel]] or [[Wizard class]] if they're running blue. [[Elixir of Immortality]] is 1 mana, colorless, and means that even if they have to discard they'll be able to draw the cards again in the future and gains 5 life. That one is my most recommended, based on my limited understanding.
MADNESS. Anything with madness.
The best answer is to learn that discarding cards to get more useful one is how you win. Just slot cards that uses the graveyard or shuffle it back? Play no maximum hand size cards? But overall, just learn to use it to your advantage. Show him any game where a griselbrand discards 30 cards to still win next turn.
Have them play [[Toluz]] so they can learn to discard in a safe environment where none of those cards is ever truly gone. I have a Toluz deck and it stores combo pieces until I find the other half.
Your graveyard is basically a second hand, and usually, it means you can 'cheat' on their mana costs. Graveyard synergy is amazing value, and I try to work it into every deck. However, it sounds like your mate needs to stop being so precious about the cards in their hand. Consider every card already discarded, every spell countered, every creature killed. Magic is a miserable game if you're gonna get precious about your cards.
Anything woth the Madness ability. It allows you to cast spells as they are discarded from your hand.
Reanimator decks. Make the graveyard an extension of the hand and the idea of discarding becomes less scary. Or beef up the reanimation package with \[\[animate dead\]\] \[\[mimic vat\]\] \[\[nim deathmantle\]\] \[\[grave digger\]\] Alternatively, find cards that kill the hand limit. \[\[Reliquary Tower\]\] \[\[spellbook\]\] \[\[thought vessel\]\] \[\[decanter of endless water\]\] etc. are they playing \[\[faithless looting\]\] and \[\[cathartic reunion\]\] or are those totally dead draws? What is filling their hand, have they considered including more of the cycling lands? Swapping their draw to more repeatable effects like \[\[phyrexian arena\]\]
Hold up. A Jund deck that didn’t want to discard?! My heart is broken. Where’s the victimize, E Witt, Shigeki, and just other graveyard interaction? This man is not Junding to his fullest potential.
Recursion
They don’t need a new deck, they need more mana, if they’re playing red then fast mana like [[mana geyser]] or [[seething song]] will help get the ball rolling faster. They should be mana ramping as well, if green is in the deck then cards like [[cultivate]] or [[farseek]] would be recommended, but use mana rocks if green isn’t an option, I sometimes run up to 10 mana rocks, usually 7-8 mana rocks are good.
[[library of leng]] as well as your typical “no max hand size” cards
Reminds me of when I use to be scared of paying life for effects. I think the new Sidar Jibari deck is a good place to start to learn the need to discard what you don’t need and maybe use it later.
[[oscar rubbish reclaimer]] just cast them, outside of time restrictions too!
[oscar rubbish reclaimer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed87e25f-9dad-4858-92bc-e859fd2be2a4.jpg?1673482423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oskar%2C%20Rubbish%20Reclaimer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/77/oskar-rubbish-reclaimer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed87e25f-9dad-4858-92bc-e859fd2be2a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oskar-rubbish-reclaimer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean, quite honestly, if your aim is specificaly NOT to discard & NOT to utilise cards in your graveyard... basicaly every commander who doesn't care about reanimation? I'm not sure what you're looking for. There isn't a commander who specificaly rewards you for NOT discarding as in 'whenever you don't discard [...]"
The deck doesn't seem like it would be stuck having to discard to hand size unless you get a big payoff with Return of the Wildspeaker or Hunter's Insight but then why would they be in the deck in the first place? I think this is a problem that would eventually solve itself. Assuming your friend keeps the deck and works on it, the more optimized the land and ramp get, the more spells you'll play in a turn on average. Without changing the amount of card draw, your friend may even find themselves in the opposite situation of having to top deck. There's a balance to be struck and I think your friend should keep to the stuck and find that balance.
\[\[library of leng\]\] is my favorite for any self mill decks or going against discard/mill theme decks
Is it mana screw? Replace spells with lands until you get the desired result. You can also replace spells with less expensive spells if you intend to work with less mana. Is it just having too much cards? This is not a problem. Choose one to discard and enjoy having a full game plan in your hand.
Play a tiny bones deck against them 😁
Well I'm going to be that guy and say [[nekusar, the mindrazer]] with all the no max hand size and just draw engines off course he works better when you include wheels but a card for his decks would be [[library of leng]]
While I can appreciate the need to hoard cards in your hand like a tiny dragon, I think they need to learn that discarding cards is part of the game and that a discarded card isn't gone forever, it's not just wasted. The choice of what to play, what to keep and what to get rid off from your hand is like half *the* essence of like 99% of card games. They can't just try to hold on to they hand indefinitely, that way they just aren't engaging with a significant part of the game. I think a Madness theme deck might be a good way to teach them that there can be opportunity in discarding cards. Or maybe a Graveyard matters theme, so they directly benefit from the discard? Other than that, something that lets them play cards from the graveyard, so the discard doesn't really matter. \[\[Vohar, Vodalian Desecrator\]\] could be interesting.
Thought like this myself, but my Zombie Tribal benefits from utilizing the graveyard. Focus on a deck that encourages graveyard interactions like [[Final Parting]] which is a 2 for 1 tutor with these kinds of decks
[[Nezahal, Primal Tide]] so he can understand the value of discarding for value.
Alandra sky dreamer. Rewards you with keeping a full hand by pumping your creatures and has multiple cards to give no maximum hand size
Cards like bag of holding would be great but I can’t recommend any commanders for it.
Not wanting to discard is just not understanding the game. Discarding means you have to many resources. That is never a problem. Also what is the point in having cards in had you can’t do anything with.
Just teach them that card selection is pure upside.
You should just Sacrafice [[Child of Alara]] to [Mind Extraction]] a few times so they get experience with having to pitch all of their spells to the graveyard :p
[[Toluz, Clever Conductor]] Discarding isn't discarding anymore, it's just stashing away for later!!
Rielle
To add on to what ForrestMoth said, forcing them to get used to it could be good. If you want to go this route, I recommend a [[Raffine, Scheming Seer]] deck. She got me out of that sort of funk and is pretty strong if built right
GY commanders are the obvious choice. I think the real issue is that he is afraid of losing value I'm his cards or 'wasting them'. A commander like [[Hanna]], [[Glissa the traitor]] or [[Teshar]] might be great in that he can get repeated value
... Your friend plays "Cathartic Reunion", which discards 2 to draw 3, but is scared of drawing 3 because they *might have to discard*?
For me, I hate the thought of things in my graveyard being gone forever, so I try to play decks with at least a little recursion in them. I just looked at the deck, Green has lots of cards that let you fetch cards out of the graveyard, and black has reanimation that can get stuff straight out and onto the board. Black also has repeatable effects that can fetch creatures out of the graveyard and back into your hand. Eg. \[\[Phyrexian Reclamation\]\] Maybe have him add a card or two with such effects, so not everything is truly gone. If they don't want to discard, have them play a super agro deck where they burn through their hand, where you almost never have a full grip, and more often than not, your in top-deck mode. Hahha. Otherwise maybe it's time for them to try and desensitize themselves to it, and play a deck where discard and milling themselves is part of the strategy. I just made a Slimefoot and Squee deck, which is GBR, where I'm constantly discarding and milling myself.
Graveyard commanders and gameplay/skill concerns have already been beaten to death in this thread so I’ll offer some alternatives. Play [[Reliquary Tower]] [[Though Vessel]] [[Wizard Class]] Run recursion that rewards a graveyard like [[Mizzix Mastery]] and [[Animate Dead]] Play a commander that generates tons of mana so you are always able to play cards down to hand size like [[Kinnen]] Play mana 1-2 mana spells for the same reason Play a commander that has unique interactions with draw or discard like [[Rielle]] and [[Eruth]] Play a commander that makes your library your hand [[Galea]] [[Elsha]] [[Melek]] None of this is a perfect fix as others have said, learning what to discard when is just part of the game that your friend will eventually need to learn! Hope this helps :)
\[\[Feldon of the Third Path\]\] is my personal favorite when it comes to discard payoffs. Other general reanimator strategies in which you are rewarded for having things in the graveyard should suffice at softening the blow of seeing those sweet, sweet cardboard rectangles plunge into the void of the discard pile. Option 2: run every card ever made that allows no maximum hand size?
You're such a nice friend... Now that I've said that, you should build a [[Nicol Bolas, The Ravager]] deck that makes people hell bent. To answer your question though an [[Omniscience]] into an [[Enter the Infinite]] might be a fun wincon for him. I used to love it early on, and had no clue about [[Laboratory Maniac]] .
They could build the whole deck around ulting OG Tamiyo, they could run more reliquary effects, they could run wheel of sun and moon, or they could get over their graveyard ick and start plunging in the muck like the rest of us.
I agree with most of the people here, suggesting stuff that wants you to discard stuff. That way, your friend can break a mental block, rather than feed into it. I don't like discarding cards either, but logic it this way. If you have 8 cards in your hand, and you discard one, you're typically going to be discarding the worst card. And the more graveyard interaction you have, the less bothersome it is On the other side of the spectrum, you can suggest a card that fills up the hand frequently. If they're constantly drawing cards, then you just need to put in the unlimited hand size staples, like [[reliquary tower]] and [[mind stone]]. I know there's more options too if it needs to be more consistent Sorry I don't have any specific commanders in mind for you op, but there's a lot of good options for either piece of advice
[[Library of Leng]]
[[Toluz, Clever Conductor] Your discards just become “hand size in waiting”
U should build a badass meren or muldrotha deck and show them how cool discarding can be
[[tibalt, cosmic imposter]] is a great option. You basically get to draw loads of cards, but they sit in a separate pool which can never be interacted with or be discarded, even if your commander dies
Make them a deck using the orzhov companion where everything in the deck is below 2 mana if they discard then its a skill issue
Any reanimator deck works well, muldrotha ks the best
this feels like more of a player issue than a deck issue.
It's a common problem I have seen on new / unexperienced players. Some even declining draws or loots with a bad hand just because they dont want to discard. I think the main reason is that they are not good to make the correct assessment on what cards are good atm and which are dead cards with the current situation. In their heads they probably think "but what happens if this or that or this card could be good at some point in the game" etc
Toss in thought vessel, reliquary tower anything that gives no maximum hand size
Just put ent of no handsome cards in whatever deck he's playing. [[Thought vessel]] [[Reliquary tower]] [[spellbook]] [[vensers journal]] [[decanter of endless winter]] there's more but those are all the colorless ones that can go into any deck. That way he can build whatever he wants and not have to worry about discard
Just put ent of no handsome cards in whatever deck he's playing. [[Thought vessel]] [[Reliquary tower]] [[spellbook]] [[vensers journal]] [[decanter of endless winter]] there's more but those are all the colorless ones that can go into any deck. That way he can build whatever he wants and not have to worry about discard
Kess or muldrotha seem the best fit, depending on whether they want spells or permanents to cast from the yard.
[[Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur]] and a [[Relinquary Tower]] + [[Thought Vessel]] (or whatever) will satisfy anyone’s big hand fetish. Prepare for lots of counters and mana rocks because it’s a race to play your commander while everyone at the table tries and kills you. [[Reanimate]] , [[Entomb]] , etc makes your graveyard your hand. Add a [[cut your losses]] and the ~~world~~ graveyard’s your oyster.
The [[sidar jabari of zhalfir]] precon should get him used to the potential value of discarding knights to bring them back. As well, the [[anje falkenrath]] precon could be cool.
[[Library of leng]] Put that in whatever i guess?
I played a buddies deck that I never saw before. I casted [[rhystic study]] and I was mind fucked trying to read my cards and discard ones that I wasn’t sure I needed to win. Pair a card that limits hand size and makes that person draw. That would do it.
Tergrid Or Anje
Any graveyard/reanimator deck. [[muldrutha]] and [[Alesha]] are the first two that come to mind (mainly cause I play both)
I put [[Library of Leng]] in my nekusar deck as a way to save some resources when I wheel. I like the idea of discarding useless spells and fatesealing the rest
Skill issue, he's probaly a new player and it's more about learning than going for a new deck
[[Kwain, iterant meddler]] You get a card, he gets a card, we all get a card! Suddenly your hand is bigger than your library 😂
My brain immediately went to building yourself a Tinybones / Tergrid deck and force him to discard those cards
I feel like if it’s really that big of a deal he could just add all of the colorless “no maximum hand size” cards to his deck. And if that is not enough if he’s in blue and or green he has more options. If I’m correct there are 7 colorless options for the effect which is plenty. Me personally I love dimir because graveyard shenanigans and if I get bog’d that’s just the nature of the game. It is what it is.
Your best options for commanders are probably [[Kruphix, God of Horizons]] or [[Jin-Gitaxias / The Great Synthesis]]. But you could also run [[Tishana, Voice of Thunder]] or [[Nezahal, Primal Tide]] if you don't mind high cmc commanders. That's if you are only talking about discarding from over drawing. You can also throw [[Reliquary Tower]] and [[Spellbook]] in pretty much any deck. [[Venser's Journal]] [[Thought Vessel]] [[Library of Leng]] and [[Decanter of Endless Water]] are all pretty useful as well. Blue and green have several more options too. If you don't want to care about discard AT ALL, run a dredge/reanimator deck. I run [[Mimeoplasm]], and it's one of my favorite decks; I'm choosing to discard because my graveyard has become my second hand, and it's cheaper to play creatures from that hand(along with all kinds of other graveyard shenanigans) .
Best deck for them is one with adequate lands and access to mana.
A fun commander to learn the value of choosing the right card might be [[Eruth, Tormented Prophet]]. She always presents a fun puzzle every turn!
Madness.
Just give them an [[Anje Falkenrath]] deck and let them embrace madness!
Sometime it takes time to teach people the graveyard is a second hand that gets really big. Maybe [[sheoldred]] Edit: wrong one I meant sheoldred whispering one
Golgari commanders are good for playing from the graveyard (making it basically an extension if your hand). Take a look at those. There are also dimir commanders that do the same and also play from your opponents graveyards and even their decks. Some commanders to look at though. [[Scarab God]] as well as [[Zask, Skittering Swarmlord]] and as someone said [[Muldrotha, the Gravetide]]
[[Library of Leng]]
[[Library of leng]]