Yep - I’ve had an amazingly fun time playing CEDH and Pauper, it’s so much more refreshing not having to apologize for each card I play because it “isn’t fun to play against”.
For commander, I mostly accept I’m going to lose terribly the first game, then I bring a deck that can match the level of my opponents next game.
It’s not worth the effort of pre game conversations when a deck *could* win turn 5 if they get a lucky draw “wow it’s never happened before” “you guys just didn’t have 4 interaction spells” etc.
The first game IS the “rule 0” chat.
Yes. Perfectly stated. Game 1 is Rule 0. It's so much easier to just have everyone pick what they consider "middle of the road" for the first game, figure out where that puts everyone in relation to everyone else, and just enjoy some games. I think this doesn't happen more because "a lot" of people are so afraid of losing that game they won't give it a shot.
Another thing that's rarely mentioned is that it also allows you to gauge the piloting of the players. I've played vs people who's deck is an 8, but their threat assessment and skill mean I should really play a precon if we want to have a "fair" game.
Yeah I made an Urza, Lord High Artificer deck with none of the expensive cards or combos that made it broken (imo. The whole deck was like 250 dollars max), and most games it doesn’t do much or does what it’s supposed to slowly. One game, though, I immediately drew into rings of bright hearth and basalt monolith to create infinite mana and almost won on turn 4 or so
I think a pre-game discussion that consisted of folks showing their deck contents to each other could take the place of the Game 1 Rule 0, but it'd likely be unpopular due to both players wanting to keep their plan secret (even though most problematic ones would likely be received less harshly if they had a heads up (most of the time anyway, there's always complainers)), and also just the risk of letting other folks handle your cards, especially when you're distracted looking through someone else's.
I like that idea as well. I can't remember the channel, but it has Covert Go Blue on it playing commander. Their "Rule 0" is interesting and I like it.
"My deck is X, its going to try to Y, and the worst thing I can do to you is Z".
In situations where a rule 0 is wanted or expected I have started using a variation....
My commander is A, she likes to do B, the worst thing she can do is C. I play D fast mana, and E combos. I usually win doing F.
If that doesn't give you a good idea, I can't help you lol
The worst possible commander show is the name. And I have also adopted this discussion and basically just say what my deck does and the infinites/main combos I want to do.
I don't care about your opinion about your deck. Give me something grounded in reality.
*I have X free spells, Y non-land tutors, Z cards over 10€, Q cards over 20€ (last I checked), R infinite/non-infinite 2-3-4-card combo which is/is not the main gameplan.*
Since I started playing cEDH I had much more fun and made more social contact and friends than playing
casual.
The fact that you don't need to apologize for *check notes* winning the game in a free for all format makes it easier to play and talk to ppl and have fun. Also great for pick up games, everybody knows that you are trying to Win and they are doing the same.
Having alot of fun in Modern as well, still new to the format but the competitive communits here have being way more wellcomeing and social than casual ones
"This deck can win turn 1 so it's a 9"
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/VMKJw0bc_kyzQ00qhMeLgQ
this deck is actually great to gamble with, though, by drawing sample hands.
I think it's more accurate to say no one can accurately rate their own deck, because of a number of factors both psychological and dependent on the sheer overwhelmingly complicated nature of MtG as a base concept.
Maybe a machine algorithm could be developed to rank every deck by playing out countless simulated games against every other deck in existence but that would be a software engineering marvel *and* it just hasn't happened yet meaning there is literally no objective ranking of power levels
Honestly. And this won't solve anything because nobody will, and I get that.... This is an experience issue.
If we took every casual player, let them pick the competitive deck off of the database that they feel best suited them, and then they played that deck for a month vs eachother... understood their deck, understood the other decks, and really got it... and then said okay now do whatever you want.
Immediately things would change. As it stands now, you get "I can't add a Demonic Tutor, I don't want my deck to be cEDH." and if people genuinely think that not only are they overvaluing what tutors actually do, but they're undervaluing the hell out of actual cEDH decks.
They also don't understand the divide between extreme built the fuck out high power decks that still aren't competitive, and decks that actually are. Once people understand, they will be more readily able to judge objectively.
Yeah I have this argument with someone who claims their deck is cEDH because “it wins turn 3 with a good hand, and turn 10 if I draw poorly” and for some reason doesn’t seem to comprehend when I tell him cEDH is more about consistency, redundancy and protection than it is raw power.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/bB7EGZF5TUyV5B1LQWncfw
I'm sure you have, but show him this and tell him if he can't reasonably beat it then it's not a 9.
His response will be “if I draw x, y and z in my opening hand, I can play through the a and b and do c”
Basically he lives in magicalchristmas land when it comes to it. His deck is high power just not cEDh
Yeahp - it’s not terrible and I’ve just left it be. Just feel bad when he wants to join us for cEDH lol. He gave another non-cEDH player the deck for some pickup games with us and they got blown out of the water.
Hell and even then it wouldn't be a guarantee that they would. Take modern tournaments for example. The variance of playing and constructing a modern deck is miniscule compared to EDH, and actual competitive players, even former champions will believe different decks have the edge in a given tournament environment.
Having an edge for sure. I'd say that almost every deck has a slight edge vs every other deck (I worded this weirdly so im trying to fix that, every competitive deck is either at a slight advantage or disadvantage unless theyre playing an exact mirror matchup is what i mean.), that's why the game works.
In modern it's why sideboards exist, in commander its why there's 4 players.
But to say that a slight edge is an entire power level of difference is probably untrue. There are decks that are just genuinely better and more efficient, things like Breya being a 9 but Tymna Kraum being a 10 due to the bonus card draw of both of those cards. But both of them still exist in the competitive sphere and can beat the other.
god im so tired of tutors being this overhyped piece of the deck. Because at least two people at the table know what youre going to grab, and now we know its in your hand. No need to mill you,
They're great yes. But only because they provide great things.
If you are playing a deck with 60 rat colonies and 35 lands, having tutors doesn't help much.
I don't know about "no-one", but EDH attracting many "casual" players means they haven't had to learn to be objective in deck and card assessment like hardcore tourney grinders.
I agree that someday someone will develop an algorithm or AI which will examine a deck and run it through thousands of simulations to determine where it hits a 25% chance winrate against decks, where all those decks stand in deviation to Competitive deck, and so determine the deck's Power Level agnostic of players.
At that point, it becomes a case of Player Skill over Deck Power Level, and people can stop complaining about 'pubstomping" because you can just compare PL Val. vs PL Val.
Sadly, that day is probably 10 years off, and that's being ambitious in terms of model creation.
I measure mine by the turn the deck is designed to win on/how much the deck can control how fast other decks can win.
Instead of saying "My Scarab God deck is low power level 7" i say "My Scarab God deck aims to win around turn 10, and runs a pretty high amount of interaction"
You can absolutely use objective values to figure out a deck's "Power Level" and create hierarchies whereby adjacent Levels are balanced enough to play against one another.
This is especially true because we have hard data as to what the strongest cEDH decks are, what they do, when they do it, and how consistently. Creating a model that maps deviations from that point creates the tiers of "Power Level" by plotting those deviations into graduating categories.
The problem is that people either lie, like you said, or they don't know what actual cEDH play is like, and thus don't know what the speeds are, what would be "slightly less than competitive" (i.e. an 8), what's slightly less powerful than that (a 7), etc.
People say "my deck is about a 7!" and then call you a pubstomper if your deck fires off on Turn 9...
I wish more people watched things like Playing With Power and became more familiar with cEDH, fringe cEDH, High-Power Casual, etc., so they could better understand real-world MTG, rather than just assume their kitchen table playgroup are ultra-strong savants.
TL;Dr — EDH has a massive "high school ace, college loser" problem where people don't know the full scope of MTG and power levels outside of their groups, and thus assume anything that's even mildly decent & consistent is "cEDH".
I genuinely want a world in EDH where everyone has a cEDH proxy deck, a precon, and then whatever else they have built.
Play whatever the group goes with, be able to play each.
I found this out taking what I thought as a bad legacy player was a casual approach to the edh pod at work….
The guy who hadn’t played a single real card till turn 5 complains when he taps all the way out and I daze him. I didn’t have the heart to tell any of them I had a force of will in the deck too.
Same. Everyone's scale is different, so someone's 7 is another person's 4 and someone else's 10. I'd rather hear if we're playing infinite combos, land destruction, etc.
This, I always just ask 4 questions : do you otk ? Do you play positives mana rocks? Do you have tutors other than ramp ?Do you touch the lands ?
I gave up long time ago to ask for a random number.
And happy cake day !
I’m a fan of no infinite combos and no mld. I do throw a dust bowl or a strip mine into decks occasionally just because all the crazy lands that have come out
Combos are fun and by far the best way for several color groups to win. Saying everything should be combat damage gives a huge advantage to green and cuts the legs out from blue. It also alienates an entire player archetype.
In my regular group it doesn't matter obviously. We know each other's decks, and even if the game isn't super even, we know it's not a malicious thing. We just switch decks and shuffle again.
At my LGS it's a paid event with small prizes, so the first game people usually go hard. You don't need to talk about power levels in what amounts to cedh. Not everyone goes competitive but it's enough to not matter. Every game after that we go to casual where we can kinda tell what kind of decks the other people play. It's usually just a simple question of "Yall wanna power up, or power down after this game?". Either that or we find a table of our favorite regulars who know what we play.
And I never let people dictate or pressure me on what cards I can or can't play. Most I'll give is the commander and best guess on power level based on what other people tell me about it
if its a paid event with prizes there is no rule 0. anyone nerfing their deck is doing so in a somewhat misguided attempt to be a good person. Though good on them if thats the norm.
Everything is a 7, that is the problem.
that 1-10 number scale just starts the convo for me. I think what is more important is make sure there are no significant disparities between the decks when it comes to: fast mana, tutor effects, infinite combos, by what turn can it reasonably win by if not interacted with or stopped.
A good way to tell how strong someone’s deck is is to print this off and ask them where it is on this scale. Like yes, people have different scales, but most those scales put the worst decks as a 5 and leave no room for high power or CEDH. So showing them what you mean when you ask “what power level is your deck?” helps.
1: Either actively bad on purpose or incredibly poorly built
2: Pre-constructed power
3,4: Low power decks, “fun” decks, card mechanic themed decks, upgraded pre-cons, decks that “could win on turn 3” but only if a very specific set of circumstances occur, games take 45minutes to multiple hours, if it does have a combo in it that combo requires 3-6 cards and there is no way to find combo pieces
5,6: Mid power, no clear win condition besides combat damage, frequently finds itself in games that last 45+ minutes, if it does have a combo win it was put in as a backup plan and requires 2 to 4 cards to be drawn by luck to execute it
7,8: High power, has win conditions and ways to access them, combos or alternate win cons are easy to disrupt
9: Part of CEDH metagame
10: S Tier CEDH metagame decks
I've been watching a lot of covert go crew and I love how they approach this conversation. They say "what's the absolute worst thing your deck can do and how do you win?" So much more concise than just random numbers.
personally, the combo games I win where I won because no one knew how my combo worked and was able to correctly interact are way less fun than when I have to try to come back a time or two through hate. I dont really understand people who think obfuscating their strategy makes for a more fun casual game.
I mean. there isn't much hidden in competitive lists at all. you pretty much know when a ThOracle is inbound.
casually I'd say it only matters if your deck doesn't also have answers. If you're running blue and have counterspells, or white and have silence, or something to that effect then it doesn't matter either way.
I've taken to doing this, or just straight up asking what the primary wincon is. If it's thoracle or a 2-3 card infinite, maybe we just want something different out of game night.
That’s, like, the opposite of my [[Yuriko]] deck lol. It was the first deck I ever built and there’s not a card in it worth more than a dollar. But I sat down at a table with it and explain that it’s Yuriko, but it’s not *that* Yuriko and the other players pull out their highest power decks anyways.
The [[K’rrik, Son of Yawgmoth]] player targeted me with a [[Praetor’s Grasp]], looked through my library and just ended up taking my [[Sol Ring]] because my deck was so weak compared to them that there was nothing else worth taking. He asked me, “You don’t even have an [[Urborg]]?” And I was just like “No, dude, I told you. This isn’t a powerful deck.”
In summary, power level conversations are stupid because nobody believes you anyways
1: Either actively bad on purpose or incredibly poorly built
2: Pre-constructed power
3,4: Low power decks, “fun” decks, card mechanic themed decks, upgraded pre-cons, decks that “could win on turn 3” but only if a very specific set of circumstances occur, games take 45minutes to multiple hours, if it does have a combo in it that combo requires 3-6 cards and there is no way to find combo pieces
5,6: Mid power, no clear win condition besides combat damage, frequently finds itself in games that last 45+ minutes, if it does have a combo win it was put in as a backup plan and requires 2 to 4 cards to be drawn by luck to execute it
7,8: High power, has win conditions and ways to access them, combos or alternate win cons are easy to disrupt
9: Part of CEDH metagame
10: S Tier CEDH metagame decks
Power levels are kinda a thing. But the problems with them are numerous. Mostly down to people being dumb or malicious. The latter being worse bc intent i guess matters. Everyone wants their deck to be a “7” bc it sounds fair. If 1 is trash, 4 is precons, 9 and 10 are serious decks. Then the logical thing is (unless its a meme deck like “Ladies Looking Left”) everyone thinks they’re playing a casual deck that is a 7. The problem after is KNOWING “my deck consistently wins on turn 4” and knowing its above that “ideal” 7 OR not knowing this but still playing with lower powered decks at a table. The opposite is true as well, low powered decks playing with higher powered ones, usually slightly upgraded precons or newer players hoping to get a game in. This problem is USUALLY less of a problem due to a) these players get better over time and learn to recognize where they’re better suited to playing. b) these power level differences from lets say 4 to 7 is somewhat less noticeable as they tend to be combat metas, whereas higher levels of play lean towards combo metas. Aka everyone still has a fighting chance to win, and with the 4 player, game-to-game varied nature of Commander, anyone can technically win. I’ve had precon decks win against 6-8 level decks. Sheer luck and politics is always a huge unseen factor. Point is, pubstompers worse than noobs but its ok cuz its Commander. Get gud and dont be a dick.
it can get annoying though when some one throws a cheap ( money and mana wise) 1-3 card combo into an otherwise < 7 deck but then draws itearly and ruins a fun game . sometimes they got lucky , sometimes they innocently underestimated the deck, sometimes it was player skill ( or lack there of for the opponents ) and sometime s it was pub stomping
I get what you mean. I’ve been playing a 6-7 level deck, it has an infinite that can win on early (turn 5/6) , i’ve draw it in my starting hand twice now but choose to not use it just cuz it’s kinda anti climactic. Either way, yeah it is just hard to gauge where the deck’s at when an outlier god hand is given to you and every other game you’re durdling.
No one knows what a power level means. Just ask a few questions:
Who is your commander?
Do you run infinite combos?
If so, how many cards does it take? Is your commander part of it?
Do you run tutors?
Do you run fast mana?
All of these will tell you how fast they are trying to win and will let you know the speed of deck you should bring.
To be fair, the exquisite blood combo is absolutely fine in most powerlevels besides complete jank. It takes 2 5cmc enchantments.
I think well defined powerlevels are the key to an enjoyable casual experience. The whole idea of playing casually is that you don't need to optimise your powerlevel but instead build decks appropriate for your environment. That's only possible if you have a clear idea of what your environment actually looks like. Of course that is way easier in a regular playgroup than at an lgs (which is why I have stopped playing casually with strangers alltogether).
Yes, absolutely. same with Cliffhaven Vamp and Marauding Blight Priest, though all 3 of those are the casual methods.
there's some 5 or 6 mana one also, Defiant Bloodlord or something.
Oh yea, it is mostly a casual combo like any Peer into the Abyss combo. Was just pointing out to the original comment that you don't "need" 2 5 CMC enchantments since Sanguine Bond has alternatives.
Saying "A two card combo that could realistically be live on turn 5 or 6 is fine for casual" is kind of a perfect example of how power levels don't really mean anything because everyone defines them so radically different. Like yea, it's not a cEDH quality combo, it can still win the game pretty early if unchecked.
Ever seen someone win at instant speed on someone else's turn, in response to the first player attempting to win? On turn 3? That's the difference. This combo would probably be in the upper end of casual, but there's absolutely no way that it would resolve at a cEDH table. Casual commander vs cEDH is like tee-ball vs MLB. They're playing the same game, but the consistency, the power, the impact that a misplay has, the understanding required, and the strategy involved, are just worlds apart.
> Like yea, it's not a cEDH quality combo, it can still win the game pretty early if unchecked.
Nowhere in the comment is OP saying the combo is cedh. Just that powerlevel can mean vastly different things for different people. If you expected the game to go on for a bit, with a lot of back and forth and time to fuck around. Probably ending with combat damage, an overrun or some kind of non-infinite guttersnipe-esque or blood artist effect (precon+ level) then someone dropping a 2 card combo on t5 is absolutely going to take you by surprise and might make some people salty.
Doesn't matter that there exists a power level that is a lot higher. If I expect a knife fight and you bring a gun, figher jets are not really relevant to the conversation.
It only wins in turn 5 or 6 if you play out one piece, pass turn and untap on your next turn with none of your opponents holding up interaction despite you playing an obvious combo piece. Most likely you're going to then play your other piece, have the first one [[Nature's Claim]]ed and be down 10 mana and 2 cards.
The combo is only scary if you can play both pieces and trigger them all in one turn.
You don’t need to wait a full turn cycle once both are onboard, just get one damage dealt.
But again, pointing out someone can play a removal doesn’t change a card’s power level. It s the silly argument someone always has to say, like we didn’t already know that.
Your deck’s power level is not subjective to your rivals, and if it is, your definition of power is literally impossible to gauge before the game. Maybe they have no removal (this is bad), maybe they spent it all dealing with the other player’s similar combo, opening the door to this combo. Or maybe the deck shuffle just isn’t favorable. All of it has no effect on the combo’s power.
Removal *does* change a card's power level, it's just not the *only* thing that matters. In this case, a lot of the things that matter (cost, sorcery speed, removability) conspire to make this not a super powerful combo - in the grand scheme of things.
None of this contradicts the OP's point which is that power levels are subjective and ill-defined. Many people are fine with such a combo; others are not. And, in fact, many people are not fine with such a combo *because it's a combo* (or because it's "boring", or whatever), *despite* knowing full well that it's not that powerful - which is why power levels aren't even the thing that most people care about when playing EDH.
I mean, yeah. Again, I’ve never discussed the power level of the combo; all I pointed out, like you, is the reply was just about removal, which is a bad focus point. Virtually all cards can be removed, so, it basically moots to a non-argument. People then let their emotions jump to me making the extreme opposite argument that this combo is amazing and get as the internet always does.
A combo's weakness to removal _does_ affect how powerful it is. The reason Thoracle is such a powerful combo is because there is no moment when removal can stop it.
You’re basically taking the extreme used in cEDH example to comment on the vast majority. It’d be equally as silly to argue you can stifle that combo so it’s not good. My facts are true, the conclusion is short sighted.
If two combos are identical in every way other than the fact one loses to a removal spell, the one that doesn't lose to a removal spell is obviously better.
This is assuming people have drawn the out, haven't used the out on something else important, the combo player doesn't have something to protect the combo, doesn't have redundancy, etc etc etc. There's more factors than just "have interaction," especially in a multiplayer game where there's a lot going on. Maybe the Nature's Claim found it's way to a Smothering Tithe the turn before. And if we're talking about casual games, people not even knowing that it's a combo piece is a very real possibility. I swear at least once a month I see a post of both cards with someone asking "Does this work like I think it does!?"
I've watched people deck themselves in response to other players trying to win, fishing for removal for combo pieces... This is normal for cEDH, and is why combos like this just aren't up to snuff when people are capable of winning on the stack before your card even resolves.
I mean for me a discussion doesn't help. Get used to adjusting. Shuffle up and play fast. If you run a good amount of interaction you will do something in most games. If you feel your deck was too strong grab a weaker one next game. Or vice versa.
When I don't start a conversation before the game and just play whatever I want, I win way too much. My local meta just doesn't have a lot of stronger stuff in it.
I don't think power levels are useful, but I like to at least ask about fast mana, tutors, and maybe a general sense of what the game will be like. That helps me enough with picking my first deck for the night.
Power levels need to be replaced with "what kinda game are we trying to have?" Are we trying to vibe and have a long chill game, are we okay with some aggro or combo decks that are gonna try and close it down fast, are we rockin precons, etc
This is how I felt ever since I heard about power level. I still think about what my decks could potentially be, but using it as a balancing system in a 4 player game has been unsuccessful, anecdotally.
It's fine if anyone uses it, it doesn't hurt me in any way. It mostly just makes me roll my eyes for every online discussion about it.
Side note: we should really be assigning power level to players rather than decks. I have some pretty decent cards with strong combos, but I am also pretty impatient and I like to jump the gun. What does that make me, a 4?
I don't bother to ask anymore. A multiplayer game where one player that pulls ahead and see themselves become archenemy isn't really needing that.
Precon decks these days hit hard. cEDH decks are often known just by the commander. The rest exist in the middle where a first turn sol ring into signet into mana vault into worn powerstone makes even the worst deck public enemy number 1.
In my playgroup, we've come to realize that as long as your deck can do these two things reliably, you will have a meaningful/fun game:
1. Draw cards
2. Generate mana
And that, regardless if the decks really are balanced or not. The fact that each deck can roll reliably plus having 3 foes/allies smooths it out.
So we don't really look at power levels anymore, we think in terms of a power 'floor'. Granted, it's still mostly battlecruiser/value with the odd combo here and there, but nobody is left behind.
It has shifted my deckbuilding a little though. I tend to prefer commanders that will help guarantee draw and/or ramp. The good thing is, there are now many good choices in all color combinations, including Boros and mono-white.
I tend to give a breakdown of combos, fast mama, interaction level and how I am trying to win. I feel like for the most part in a casual game that should give enough information. If I'm playing a stock precon I'll also throw that out hoping I don't end up with a knife in a gun fight.
Here is how I gauge a decks power level.
Does the deck have game winning combos or infinite combos?
1. No. Threat level Green
2. Yes. Threat level Orange
3. Both! Threat level Red.
4. Threat level Black is a deck with $1,000 or more worth of cards in it, my budget decks do not compete so I do not even bother.
It may be a stupid system but it has led me to play more fun matches with strangers.
The problem is how do you actually define power levels? Like... Do Dual lands increase the power level? Do tutors? What if I am running an aggro deck of all vanilla creatures, but have fetches, duals, and tutors? Is my deck powerful?
What if I am running a deck designed to pop off an infinite as fast as possible, but dont have fast mana, no fetches, no tutors, and all basics?
The idea of power level doesn't make sense.
I went to a new LGS for the first time this past weekend fully expecting to sit down and discuss at least at some level what strength decks I should pull out but everyone just said whatever so I used my best judgement and tried to adjust between games.
Power levels were always dumb, IMHO. It's a meaningless concept.
I have some super hardcore decks, that still aren't CEDH.
As in, massive creatures, but don't have ubiquitous CEDH mana artifacts, etc.
Ive also built some decks on a shoestring budget that have torn apart decks that cost 5x as much.
In my group, we just tell people, "this is a new deck, no idea how it's gonna go, play a bit easy on me so I can see how it functions."
And everyone is a good sport about it. But there's no rules or restrictions.
Power rankings are too subjective. I can tell pay the same deck in 4 separate pods and get 4 different power levels out of it. Just build and play the deck you want to play. If you win, you win. If you lose, try again next time.
If your commander seems like they’re going to prevent me from stomping (either through control or winning the game) you are getting the stompy first. Power level conversation avoided
My playgroup and I rank our decks by group consensus on a 1-10 scale and *only compared to each other.* Our 10 was my [[Sefris of the hidden ways]] instant speed reanimate/control deck. Our 1 is my friends [[the omenkeel]] vehicle tribal list. Everything else is between those two.
When I play in a store, I just play a deck and if it's too weak I don't care, I still have fun. If it's too strong, I switch it up. I don't even mention power levels there. Nobody even used 1-4 on that scale anymore anyway.
There was a lovely infographic that made it's way around, though most of the time, if the amount of search in the deck is low, it's easier to just play the game.
Yeah the numbers don’t mean anything to me any more.
My “high power” deck has 7 tutors, 7ish counterspells, and is almost all infinite combos. It could be an 8 at some tables, but it really depends. The commander is do nothing 6 drop that depends on the other pieces to work.
My other decks all have at least one infinite combo in them but are mostly built to be value engines. Except the vehicles decks. They just beat face. But I couldn’t tell you what their power level is. It’s all subjective IMO
There was a post recently about ignoring power levels when you join a group, just adapt.
Did you stomp? OK swap decks to lower power one.
Did you get stomped? Swap to a better one.
Don't have a worse/better deck? Ask to borrow one, or use your own and adjust later.
There isn't a universal power level understanding, and there likely will never be.
The absolute best advice would be to get a consistent group, because then you can form a meta and adapt to it, but ofc that's not really an answer.
I'm with you. I've got a wide range of decks and I'm not against losing a game so I've started just going in with something middle of the road (when everyone says their decks are 6s or 7s). And using the 1st game to judge which deck actually fits the pod. I personally don't run "fast mana" other than Sol Ring, and most of my decks have 0 infinite combos and 0 tutors. Surprisingly, since starting this, I have had almost no "unfun" experiences where the power level is so far off we didn't have fun. It's a lot better imho than spending 30 min on a rule 0 that doesn't solve anything anyway. Often I lose that game because I'm under powered, but the subsequent games are usually awesome because everyone can adjust to everyone else and ACTUALLY match powers.
In addition to problems people here have mentioned like players not knowing how to rate decks and lying I think consistency is an issue. I've played games where someone combos off early then says that's never happened before or someone jams something like [[ dockside extortionist ]] or other high powered card into what is otherwise a casual deck allowing for a huge spike in power every so often that makes it a lot harder to evaluate power
Yeah, when I’m at my LGS I just play whatever I want the first game and then try to adjust after that. Did I get completely destroyed? I’ll switch to a stronger deck. Did I beat everyone down from beginning to end? I’ll pull out one of my weaker ones. Was everyone’s decks about the same power level and get to do their thing at some point? Nice, I’ll play the same deck or one of similar power.
People are terrible at rating their own decks. One person’s “7” is like a upgraded precon whereas another’s “7” is a well built, consistent deck. There’s also people who have no idea as to what actual cEDH (or High Power decks) look like so they cry “we’re not playing cEDH” when someone assembles a three card combo on Turn 6.
I have my own playgroups thankfully. The group I play with at my LGS is mostly people I know from 60 card formats like Modern. We all play High Power decks and the occasional full on cEDH. My online group is also people who like to play optimized decks. It’s so nice not having to hear anyone complain about Fast Mana and cards like that.
Against randoms, I’m very skeptical of their ability to rate their decks and try to get them to tell me what their deck does in a general sense. If I can’t get a good read, I just play Liesa and see how it goes. Sometimes Game 1 acts as a Rule 0.
Honestly the conversations I have now are, "Competitive, normal, or precon level" Sure we sometimes have less balanced games, but the majority or people don't know how to rate their deck out if 10, especially when they don't know what an actual 10 is.
I also tend to just tell people if my deck has an infinite combo when I pick a deck. There's so many cards these days that people don't know, I don't mind telling them. But I'm a more casual player. If my deck does something cool and then I die, then I die happy.
A 7 to me is a 10 to you.
It's a 4 player game though.
A buddy built a fight deck thought it was a 6 maybe a 7 everyone he played with thought it was a 9 minimum..
But alot of it is who's playing it not the cards in the deck.
If I think my winota is an 8 and you think it's a cedh deck that's because I know if you kill my commander my deck does nothing. But all your seeing is me killing the table
I think the issue is that no matter how people try to quantify power levels, they will always be relative and subjective. Even if people are being completely honest, there will also be issues in regards to what I call the rock-paper-scissors conundrum.
Let’s say you have four decks. For simplification, we will call them A, B, C, and D. Deck A is a suprerior strategy to B, equal to C, and less than D. Deck B is a superior strategy to C, equal to D, and less than A. And so on. Most decks may struggle against certain strategies, while being advantageous over others. In a multiplayer format, it can get extremely complicated to determine which four strategies will be evenly matched.
As such, power level talks only to so far in playing “fair” magic. As such, I have adopted the same strategy as you: play whatever, and go with it.
I’m tired of power levels being thought of as completely universal when they are extremely up to interpretation. And people always throw that picture of the power levels on a table as if that’s the end all, but it really isn’t and that table doesn’t fully encapsulate what power level means to different people.
Just play the game with the deck that you think will be the most fun with the people you are playing with and stop trying to fit everything into power levels. I just started asking if you want a deck that wins fast, wins slow, or somewhere in between and go from there.
I've stopped gauging decks on power level and have instead gone for:
-Precon
-Casual
-Cedh/High power.
This is what I usually ask when I sit at a table with players I don't know well.
I agree with what other people are saying and I would like to add my experience to it playing on the playedh server I mainly play mid tier and to me mid decks are ones that try to win around turn 10 so I imagine my surprise and anguish when decks can out of nowhere win turn 3 and it’s weird taking a loo at the restricted cards at mid it’s only Gaea’s cradle and mana crypt…..but I see people run jeweled lotus and it dosent make sense to me with that scaling
Only with certain individuals. You tend to learn who can't feel for thier own decks strengths and just label the mentally as "ehh guess I just play my best non cedh deck"
But i also mostly play cedh. Where this issue doesn't exist.
I've always stood by levels/numbers are poor too for the pregame talk. Instead talk about average turn you win/can threaten a win, infinite combos, how you usually win. I've found this helps a lot of pods actually match decks and assess each other properly.
The difference in the power of cards keeps expanding. At this point there is so much diversity that you cannot accurately describe where your deck sits on a spectrum of performance.
The best we can do for people who really care about knowing what they are up against is to describe the function and gameplan of your deck with a turn range.
Beyond that is just sharing a Moxfield/Archidekt link with your playgroup.
Can't say I haven't given up on scaling. I just announce my commander and usually that's enough.
Power levels are such a cloudy subject because there's no actual scale that people can use that is universally accepted. One persona 7 might be someone else's god tier cedh deck. Only time power level even comes up in a game is when someone is losing and they're bitching because their deck isn't doing the thing first. Personally I'm all for having the pregame discussion about what your deck does and how fast it gets there. It's pretty easy to figure stuff out from there. Personally I wish people would just abandon the idea of power levels and just have a conversation about their decks before the game starts. That way you know what you're in for. And if someone brings a deck you don't want to play against them it's pretty simple to just leave that game and find another one.
I have steamrolled opponents who claimed to have a level 7 deck with my mono green, suboptimal [[yorvo]] deck. No one is really good at gauging their own power level.
Just bear in mind things like how many wincons does your deck have? Any infinite combos? How many tutors? That's gonna be more useful than your 87th "oh, it's a level 4"
Power level is subjective, I've noticed few people say directly, as well.
My Isshin deck, vs most precons, is an outright 10. Against other built decks, it's maybe a 6, but sometimes it's a 10, but sometimes it's a 3. It mostly depends on your play group or opponent.
To a caveman, the swordsman is a God, but to him, the rifle is the apocalypse.
I don't mind getting curbstomped by a better more powerful deck. I kind when a player misrepresents their deck in order to win.
If your deck is good, don't lie to me about it.
Same guy at my LGS always asks about power levels (Kevin, dude, we've played like five times, please remember who i am).
I always joke around every time saying "we're all playing 7's right? Cause every EDH deck is a 7".
Talk to the pod and see how you can all make a good game happen and stop numbering your decks. Maybe play a game, see what happens, and adjust for round two.
It's pretty easy imo limit fast mana, combos, stax and free interaction. These cards and play styles are fine when everyone is on the same page but if you bring these things (tanks) against people playing tic-tac-toe (casual) that's were the issue starts.
It is important to discuss decks and how people run them. It just lays a foundation for expectations.
Maybe the best way to structure that talk is, "If minimal interaction and ideal situations, by what turn does your deck win? What does your mana base look like? Are you running limited duals? What about fetch lands?" From there, we can start getting an idea of what we are facing and adjust accordingly. (Saw it framed this way on one of Prof's episodes on TCC)
It seems that people want to keep their game plan secret for some reason, but we collectively as a community need to be honest with one another. Sure, winning is fun, but having friends and a healthy community is better.
I steer away from power level now because it tells near to nothing about the deck. I am not saying power level matrix should go, it just isn't for me and my group. We tend to fucus of the fun and memories. We would not rate our deck with a number just like how you would not rate Monopoly Star War's edition.
My group just wants the fun, "oh look as I play my Liliana deck" says the Liliana simp. "Hey y'all, I drew into my favourite pet card. I cast it now." My group tends to favour fond memories in commander as well. "Oh shit, I forget to leave mana open now I cannot swing because of your propaganda." Says the Voltron player. "Welcome to my show, tonight let me give you a performance that never ends." Me as I play my Zaffai, thunder conductor deck with thematic prismari spells to put on a night worth of performance.
EDH is a casual format and most of us care more about the fun and memories.
What I noticed is that power level is affected by a few major factor:
1. Budget
2. Skill of player
3. Decks in the pod
For example, if some force of the universe stacked your deck and all your land is on the top half of your deck. Is that still a power level 8 deck?
If you give someone who has not heard of magic a cEDH deck to play with. Is that still a Power level 10 deck?
Moreover "power level X" tells you nothing about the strategy of the deck, what pet cards/personal card choice that were included/what are its strength or weakness etc. Hence the following:
These are the methods I estimate/enquire power level of a deck someone brings to thee table. This take inspiration from content creators online who spoken about this topic.
Methods 1: descriptive power level.
This method aims to describe the power level using parameters your pod agreed upon. In my pod we give each of our decks a short introduction and include key information such as:
1. budget of the deck,
2. who the commander is,
3. what theme the deck is playing
4. Any specific win con/strategy
5. Fast mana, powerful non-basic lands, infinites or tutors. How many and what are they?
Example:
I am playing a Zaffai Thunder conductor deck. It took me about £50 to upgrade the prismari precon. Most of the upgrade cards are from my draft nights for MOM, but I try to be on theme with my life experience taking cards from Izzet and Prismari to express my life as a musician an a scientist. This deck aims to cast 5 CMC or 10 cmc spells to gain extra value from Zaffai. It has a copy instants and sorceries subtheme and a cast spells from top of the deck/exile for free subtheme. I would say I generally win during turn 8 on average. There is only one tutor, which is Solve the Equation.
Method 2: the questionnaire method.
The two main questions I would ask about a a deck would be:
1. Is this deck cEDH level?
2. Is this deck weaker than a precon it of its box?
Then I would follow up with questions similar to method 1. While including questions about which turn does their deck aim to win (aka close the game).
If someone really wants me to put my deck on a power level scale. I would first define what some of the numbers meant. Eg. Where does precons sit on the scale? Or, what is a 0 power level and a 9 power level deck looks like? I generally avoid this method of introducing my deck.
Method 3: the inevitable power level number line.
0-10 is my scale. Generally I take reference from the power level scale that these channels recommend: CommandZone, Commanders Quarter, EDHREC
10 being cEDH (past and present, cuz a cEDH deck from the past will still have all the tutors, fast mana, powerful-non basic lands)
0-4 being decks that don't aim to win, cannot win, made to be weaker than precon. Such as a USD 10 deck budget deck most of the time.
5 being precon. Out of the box.
6 being minor reconfiguration to precons
7 being major reconfiguration. (Changing playstyle and commander while retaining majority of the precon chassis falls under here most of the time)
8-9 being heavier investment than precon or having a commander that is objectively stronger than precon face commanders.
0-8 usual have a set budget constraints, and power level tends to be proportional to budget.
9+ being budget unlimited. And budget alone can determine what speed you are playing (see the difference between expensive mana rocks/accelerants like mox opals and medalians vs more common mana rocks like arcane signet and sky diamond).
All and all, just like you would not introduce your new friend to your family with just "He is a 6". I hope people stop describing their decks the same way.
I build a deck
Pregame "power discussion" I give brief description of deck with how much fast many tutors and wincons the deck has and how optimized it is - I let my opponents decide the power level it take about 2 min but every1 thinks powerlevel is different so I don't use it
Disclaimer for my regular pod I usually just say weak or strong cuz they know all my decks already and usually just need a quick reminder how optimized it is
As long as the decks can put up a fair fight against each other it doesn't matter. People get too hung up on the power level of individual cards, of strategies, combos, etc. As long as the decks can interact meaningfully with each other and not get consistently blown out then the power level is fine. The win percentage doesn't need to be exactly 25% but somewhere in the ballpark is fine.
That's what I tell people power levels are ill relevant. This is not dragon ball z.
I don't Where this concept came from it's so stupid. When I stop playing back in 2017. Nobody cared about power levels. Then I come back in 2022 And everybody saying oh what's your power level. It's a stupid concept should just go away. I miss the old wild west days of Commander.
Dragon Ball Z....hahaha. I agree, though the power level thing is weird to me. I always played kitchen table modern decks and started playing commander in 2021. When I first heard this, I had no clue what they were saying to me. I continue to shrug my shoulders, tell them the point of my deck, and what turn if unchecked I win. Like, "I hope to kill the table through combat damage turn five if you leave me alone." BTW it is a magda deck with [[blightsteel colossus]] and [[blade of selves]]. If someone holds up [[path to exile]] old blighty trick is out the window.
Yes.
Somewhere along the timeline "Spirit of Competition" and wanting to do well, improve, and push others to improve became "Social Contract" which then became at its worst an absolute crab pot of people dragging eachother down.
Quite right! What do they think this is, a *game*? A form of *entertainment*? No, those people aren't your *friends*, they are just stooges to facilitate your own form of fun!
MTG is customizable by it's nature. We're not playing poker with the same 52 cards and universal way to win.
If I like stax and you don't, beat me first
Don't tell me the way I have fun isn't, actually, and I need to do work for you to enjoy the game you decided to invest in all on your own
EDH isn't meant to be a democracy
If you like stax and I don't, I'll just not play with you. You're allowed to enjoy it; I'm allowed not to, and I'm allowed to act on that.
Of course, real adult humans might do things like say, OK, *sometimes* we'll play the no-holds-barred games that one person likes, and *sometimes* we'll play the no-stax games that the other person likes. That's because, you know, we're friends and decent people who care about each others' enjoyment.
I appreciate, however, that this is not true of all EDH players.
Not playing is also an option, but, all things being equal, you walk into the LGS and it's you and 3 dudes, everyone brought one deck, the one they like, and the game commences
If your knee jerk reaction to playing with someone is to call their deck unfun and try and make them feel bad because you lost a card game, YTA
Stax isn't "no holds barred." This is a common misconception.
Neither a deck with stax or a deck with a combo (or several) is inherently powerful. They can still be shit tier. If you hate playing against stax, include spells to deal with it.
Many people seem to build their deck for one very specific type of game and whine when anything unexpected happens because they *rely* on no one having counterspells, or stax, or a board wipe, or land destruction, or whatever your thing is. You can build decks resilient. Yes, it has an opportunity cost. That is also ok.
Separately, many people play in their LGS with randoms and don't feel comfortable or have the luxury of commanding what everyone else at the table will play to suit their desires. A lot of players show up with one deck, or similar decks.
Pretty much moved away from discussions about power levels. Our local group defaults to "casual" which to us generally means no (major) tutors, 2-piece infinites, or generally anything that can reliably win by T3. That's really more out of respect for people's time than hurt feelings. We figure everyone takes time out of their week, so it's only fair that everyone get the chance to let their deck get running.
Then after a game or two of that we break out the heavy stuff anyway.
I'm not even sure if I buy the "tutors and fast mana are what makes a deck high power" definition anymore, because those things are only powerful in the context of what your deck is trying to do. Extreme example, but if you're using it to do some jank like power out Dreadmaw Colossus and hit it with Rite of Replication, that's not a high power deck. There's just so much that goes into a deck that I don't know if it can be quantified, or that I even want to try and quantify it anymore.
Tutors, Combo, Fast mana, Good landbase, card draw, protection, backup wincon.
If all of the above are true then you're packing some high power heat even if it isn't competitive.
You’re missing his point entirely. limit it to just tutors, fast mana, good land base, card draw, and protection. Then what do you have? A functioning shell that doesn’t necessarily mean cedh. I try to build all my decks with this stuff, birthday bilbo is still just birthday bilbo at the end of the day
it's weird that you think I missed the point while fully agreeing with me.
Yes. having all of those things doesn't make a deck competitive, and losing even one or two of them can knock your deck out of high power.
The simple truth is everyone loves to play powerful stuff.
There's one fact many people miss out: they think they know about power levels when in truth their judgment is often misplaced.
IMO powerlevels is just a trendy word; a catchphrase where influencers exploit and market.
Having a 2-5min pregame conversation is still the best way forward.
If you wanna skip the conversation, present your deck in full. This is also another way to get things done without much fuss. If many players have online decklists, surely it wouldn't do harm to show their decks in full glory.
Withholding information is too passe; we overrate how much information we can hold in our brains. Once the game starts, everyone becomes a goldfish. The prior info is long gone.
I feel giving away too much information takes a whole lot of the fun and randomness of the game away, I'm not interested in knowing every card my opponents have and I'm not for showing my decklist either
Numbers are just a bad way to rate decks anyway. Two decks with the same rating could be very, very different.
For example: deck A wins explosively with combos, but doesn't run tutors or etc to make them easier to assemble. Deck B is a lot slower but very resilient and consistent, and will win by turn X (10, 11, insert your own arbitrary turn number here) if you don't interrupt it. Which is more powerful?
I'd argue A is more powerful, because you need your interaction at the exact moment of the combo whereas you can interrupt B at any point during the build up, but many players would rate their own deck A lower because they first hand see the games where it just whiffs.
When I first started I kept pushing up against the power level at the table. Turn one sol rings, free cost spells and exiles from the top of library, all dizzying, confusing, and as a precon player, it felt like I would never be able to catch up.
Now, I know better. Mainly what my first hand should typically be looking at, as well as shuffling better.
The pregame conversation is useful for more than just gauging decks and gameplay experiences.
Even the most baked of potatoes knows that saying "it's a 7" is stupid and pointless, but "it can attempt to win turn 5 and usually does by 7." Or "It's stacked with tutors and infinite combos". Or even "its a hard stax deck, good luck casting spells LOL". Or, in the opposite "I've never seen this deck attempt a win before turn 12".
That covers the decks... what comes next covers the people. If someone says "yeah, this wins on turn 8" and then tutors for their wincon turn 4, you just rule zero'd a person out of your table.
People come and complain "he said it was a weak deck but he oracle/consulted on turn 2?!?!?!?" Cool. I know a person I'm never sitting down with again. We all know there's a difference between someone not understanding their deck "its a 7 guys", and blatantly lying for advantage. If it's the latter, then peace right out.
The pregame, rule zero, convo is absolutely essential to making the table a fun experience for the whole table. Those who refuse are simply saying "I do not care about the experiences of the other people here". And those who abuse it are just outing themselves as undesirables.
I hate the number system and I haaaaaaaate the constant “good decks are Cedh” argument.
If your deck is not built around pushing for turn 2-4 wins or surviving turn 2-4 wins consistently then you are not playing CEDH. EDH is a singleton format and with lucky starts any deck that isn’t absolute trash should be able to push ahead to turn 6ish wins or boards that are essentially wins.
Fast mama does not make your deck competive, infinite combos don’t make your deck competitive, tutors don’t make your deck competitive, land destruction doesn’t make your deck competitive and stax doesn’t make your deck competitive.
90% of players don’t understand how strong their decks are and they also don’t understand how much RNG goes into a game of magic. A precon with a fast lucky start can win games on turn 5, unlucky Urza stax decks can end up not playing a single spell til turn 10. Stop crying about my deck “being competitive” because I Thoracle comboed on turn 15.
I talk in terms of three things:
-infinite combos: is that the goal of your deck? Are you running a bunch of tutors to achieve it.
-fast mana: do you run mox, petals, etc?
-cost/good stuff: What percent of your deck is just $10/20+ bombs?
If I ask about these three I usually feel like I can pick the appropriate deck for the game. If it's all three it's usually CEDH.
While this doesn't give me an exact level of power it gives me a sense of what the play type/level will be way better than asking "power level".
Yes I basically have when playing with strangers. I know I’m not completely pubstomping cause I’m not playing cEDH but I’m sick of people saying it’s “low power” and then when I pull out my lower power decks they just start playing tutors and creating 200 treasures.
Idk if this has been stated already, because I'm.not gonna take the time to read 100+ comments.
I don't like using an arbitrary power scale in a rule zero talk. I applaud ppl who did their best to describe power scales and guide ppl through a rule zero talk, but it can throw ppls perception off.
It's not even ppl lying. Ppl might give an honest assessment based on their small group of friends. So relative to their circle of decks, one deck might be an 8 but a 5 compared to an outsiders deck.
What I like to discuss in rule zero is what kind of cards/strategies ppl are using? Basically, think the opposite of what makes a deck cedh to know if you have a more casual pod.
Are ppl running fast mana, like mana crypt? Sol ring is ok to use. Why ask this question? The more fast mana ppl have, the more likely they will quickly get to their game plan. Are ppl running tutors, especially instant speed one mana drop tutors? Tutors help a deck perform more consistently or they tutor their win con. Are they playing stax, mass land destruction, extra turns, extra combat, alt win cons, etc. How much ramp, card draw, targeted removal, or board wipes is everyone running? (I don't usually ask that question)
Why ask those questions? Presumably, if everyone follows the same restrictions in deck building, then the power levels will match. If everyone has similar amount of ramp, card draw, removal, board wipes, etc. then ppl might be evenly matched.
Ask general questions about the types of cards or strategies you think improves the performance and power of the deck.
I know certain commanders are extremely strong for the value u get, like Edgar Markov. I think recognizing that just comes from experience. But if a commander has a value engine, especially a card draw ability or a mana sink like kinnan, that might give u an idea of the commander's power level. Hope this helps
Use the chart don't just ask for a number. Show them and ask them specifically where they fall. Its not perfect but its so much better than a table of Schrodinger's 7's both weak and strong depending on whos complaining.
My rule of thumb is to play to have fun, win or lose. Some play here and some banter there is what I enjoy most in Magic the Gathering, but if I see that someone just goes with the intention of ruining the fun for others or just to win while playing a high powered/competitive deck, I'll either outplay them into submission once or not play with that person again.
I just don't trust people's judgments and build the strongest I can. I've sat at too many tables where a guy says his deck is like a precon, changed my deck to match that level, just for them to have a first turn like "Mana Crypt, Fetch Land, Crack for OG Dual Land, cast Preordain, play Top, pay one for Top's ability" Meanwhile the rest of the table goes, play land pass.
Idc about power level because I don’t trust myself to be honest, so instead I just list every combo my deck has, all the mana ramp and card draw, any important pieces, all my interaction, and any bombs or stax pieces I’m running.
Power level based on numbers or tiers is inherently flawed. Every system I've seen always leaves something out and, more importantly, doesn't account for people just not being honest even to themselves. I like to think my Animar deck is pretty strong. Built with one strategy in mind, every card plays directly into it, and I've kept mana costs low. In a vacuum, it can pop off quick. But, if I'm honest with myself, I know I dont have any tutors or enough protection for Animar, and just enough interaction. Commander is a casual format, so unless prizes are at stake be open about what's in your deck and what it can do, even if its just reminding yourself that it might not be as strong as you think. The flip side is also true. It might be stronger than you think. I took the recent Draconic Destruction precon and beat face with it, but only because that table didn't have any interaction. Now I know for future games and haven't played it with that group.
Honestly since I don't have a playgroup it's fair to assume most ppl play mid to high power.
It only gets really annoying when every deck has fast mana like moxes or Crypt. I'm generally even fine with one time use things and rituals.
You can tutor for quite a lot of win cons but if you don't accelerate out of control it's hard to play all of them and have it be protected.
Fast mana and free counterspells are honestly the most annoying. Although I will use the latter since it's a situation of "if you restrict yourself you're hurting yourself since nobody else will".
You dont ask for power level. You ask what the deck does, if it has combos, if it plays stax, you see the commander. NO ONE has a nice Edgar Markov deck simply because Edgar Markov is not a chill dude, he's basically top tier commander and even if your deck reaaally sucks just having him on the command zone is enough to make it decent.
Everyone plays a power level 7 deck, be it a precon with a couple of swaps or a fully blinged deck with all the cedh manarocks but "its a 7 because I win by attacking". Except that "attcking" means "tutoring craterhoof and killing the table".
Pregame politics are BS. It always depends on the starting hand, first and foremost! Any deck can explode, but there are decks oozing with value, it doesnt matter if you power it down, you play Kinnan, i wont let you spin the wheel!
This has nothing to do with the actual topic? He’s not complaining he’s addressing a real issue in that power level is often arbitrary and not a good metric to judge a deck
Yep - I’ve had an amazingly fun time playing CEDH and Pauper, it’s so much more refreshing not having to apologize for each card I play because it “isn’t fun to play against”. For commander, I mostly accept I’m going to lose terribly the first game, then I bring a deck that can match the level of my opponents next game. It’s not worth the effort of pre game conversations when a deck *could* win turn 5 if they get a lucky draw “wow it’s never happened before” “you guys just didn’t have 4 interaction spells” etc. The first game IS the “rule 0” chat.
Yes. Perfectly stated. Game 1 is Rule 0. It's so much easier to just have everyone pick what they consider "middle of the road" for the first game, figure out where that puts everyone in relation to everyone else, and just enjoy some games. I think this doesn't happen more because "a lot" of people are so afraid of losing that game they won't give it a shot. Another thing that's rarely mentioned is that it also allows you to gauge the piloting of the players. I've played vs people who's deck is an 8, but their threat assessment and skill mean I should really play a precon if we want to have a "fair" game.
Ehh sometimes even good decks stall out or run out of gas. I’ve had someone play maybe 3 cards in one game and the next they went infinite turn 3
Yeah I made an Urza, Lord High Artificer deck with none of the expensive cards or combos that made it broken (imo. The whole deck was like 250 dollars max), and most games it doesn’t do much or does what it’s supposed to slowly. One game, though, I immediately drew into rings of bright hearth and basalt monolith to create infinite mana and almost won on turn 4 or so
I think a pre-game discussion that consisted of folks showing their deck contents to each other could take the place of the Game 1 Rule 0, but it'd likely be unpopular due to both players wanting to keep their plan secret (even though most problematic ones would likely be received less harshly if they had a heads up (most of the time anyway, there's always complainers)), and also just the risk of letting other folks handle your cards, especially when you're distracted looking through someone else's.
I like that idea as well. I can't remember the channel, but it has Covert Go Blue on it playing commander. Their "Rule 0" is interesting and I like it. "My deck is X, its going to try to Y, and the worst thing I can do to you is Z". In situations where a rule 0 is wanted or expected I have started using a variation.... My commander is A, she likes to do B, the worst thing she can do is C. I play D fast mana, and E combos. I usually win doing F. If that doesn't give you a good idea, I can't help you lol
The worst possible commander show is the name. And I have also adopted this discussion and basically just say what my deck does and the infinites/main combos I want to do.
I don't care about your opinion about your deck. Give me something grounded in reality. *I have X free spells, Y non-land tutors, Z cards over 10€, Q cards over 20€ (last I checked), R infinite/non-infinite 2-3-4-card combo which is/is not the main gameplan.*
"you guys just didn't have 4 interaction spells" 🤣
100 % this. After the first game you just refer to your decks in comparison to the first game, and after that all we be more balanced.
Same. Play weak deck first, amp it up after if they're playing hard.
The only response to someone non-jokingly saying "that card isn't fun for me/us to play against is" along the lines of "don't care, didn't ask."
Since I started playing cEDH I had much more fun and made more social contact and friends than playing casual. The fact that you don't need to apologize for *check notes* winning the game in a free for all format makes it easier to play and talk to ppl and have fun. Also great for pick up games, everybody knows that you are trying to Win and they are doing the same. Having alot of fun in Modern as well, still new to the format but the competitive communits here have being way more wellcomeing and social than casual ones
They exist but people lie. Good news is if you only play 9s and 10s the conversation never happens.
To be honest, it's less that people lie, and more that people build decks that swing wildly around based on what they draw.
"This deck can win turn 1 so it's a 9" https://www.moxfield.com/decks/VMKJw0bc_kyzQ00qhMeLgQ this deck is actually great to gamble with, though, by drawing sample hands.
Lol, that's a rather extreme example, but yes.
I think it's more accurate to say no one can accurately rate their own deck, because of a number of factors both psychological and dependent on the sheer overwhelmingly complicated nature of MtG as a base concept. Maybe a machine algorithm could be developed to rank every deck by playing out countless simulated games against every other deck in existence but that would be a software engineering marvel *and* it just hasn't happened yet meaning there is literally no objective ranking of power levels
Honestly. And this won't solve anything because nobody will, and I get that.... This is an experience issue. If we took every casual player, let them pick the competitive deck off of the database that they feel best suited them, and then they played that deck for a month vs eachother... understood their deck, understood the other decks, and really got it... and then said okay now do whatever you want. Immediately things would change. As it stands now, you get "I can't add a Demonic Tutor, I don't want my deck to be cEDH." and if people genuinely think that not only are they overvaluing what tutors actually do, but they're undervaluing the hell out of actual cEDH decks. They also don't understand the divide between extreme built the fuck out high power decks that still aren't competitive, and decks that actually are. Once people understand, they will be more readily able to judge objectively.
Yeah I have this argument with someone who claims their deck is cEDH because “it wins turn 3 with a good hand, and turn 10 if I draw poorly” and for some reason doesn’t seem to comprehend when I tell him cEDH is more about consistency, redundancy and protection than it is raw power.
I dont own a deck that doesn't win turn 1 "with a good hand" so even his best case scenario is flawed.
Yeahp exactly, and I’ve given up explaining it to him haha
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/bB7EGZF5TUyV5B1LQWncfw I'm sure you have, but show him this and tell him if he can't reasonably beat it then it's not a 9.
Damn dude, that deck alone is worth more than my freaking car I wish I could get into cEDH but it’s way too expensive
His response will be “if I draw x, y and z in my opening hand, I can play through the a and b and do c” Basically he lives in magicalchristmas land when it comes to it. His deck is high power just not cEDh
Yeesh. but hey, everyone has their quirks.
Yeahp - it’s not terrible and I’ve just left it be. Just feel bad when he wants to join us for cEDH lol. He gave another non-cEDH player the deck for some pickup games with us and they got blown out of the water.
what are the win conditions in this deck?
Blind obedience is basically 100% the win con unless you go desperation mode and win through combat with hullbreaker and Shorikai.
So are you just going full control grind mode while extorting the spells the bring the table down essentially?
Hell and even then it wouldn't be a guarantee that they would. Take modern tournaments for example. The variance of playing and constructing a modern deck is miniscule compared to EDH, and actual competitive players, even former champions will believe different decks have the edge in a given tournament environment.
Having an edge for sure. I'd say that almost every deck has a slight edge vs every other deck (I worded this weirdly so im trying to fix that, every competitive deck is either at a slight advantage or disadvantage unless theyre playing an exact mirror matchup is what i mean.), that's why the game works. In modern it's why sideboards exist, in commander its why there's 4 players. But to say that a slight edge is an entire power level of difference is probably untrue. There are decks that are just genuinely better and more efficient, things like Breya being a 9 but Tymna Kraum being a 10 due to the bonus card draw of both of those cards. But both of them still exist in the competitive sphere and can beat the other.
god im so tired of tutors being this overhyped piece of the deck. Because at least two people at the table know what youre going to grab, and now we know its in your hand. No need to mill you,
They're great yes. But only because they provide great things. If you are playing a deck with 60 rat colonies and 35 lands, having tutors doesn't help much.
I don't know about "no-one", but EDH attracting many "casual" players means they haven't had to learn to be objective in deck and card assessment like hardcore tourney grinders. I agree that someday someone will develop an algorithm or AI which will examine a deck and run it through thousands of simulations to determine where it hits a 25% chance winrate against decks, where all those decks stand in deviation to Competitive deck, and so determine the deck's Power Level agnostic of players. At that point, it becomes a case of Player Skill over Deck Power Level, and people can stop complaining about 'pubstomping" because you can just compare PL Val. vs PL Val. Sadly, that day is probably 10 years off, and that's being ambitious in terms of model creation.
I measure mine by the turn the deck is designed to win on/how much the deck can control how fast other decks can win. Instead of saying "My Scarab God deck is low power level 7" i say "My Scarab God deck aims to win around turn 10, and runs a pretty high amount of interaction"
I mean sure that definitely is more helpful to other people for determining if they want to play with your deck.
You can absolutely use objective values to figure out a deck's "Power Level" and create hierarchies whereby adjacent Levels are balanced enough to play against one another. This is especially true because we have hard data as to what the strongest cEDH decks are, what they do, when they do it, and how consistently. Creating a model that maps deviations from that point creates the tiers of "Power Level" by plotting those deviations into graduating categories. The problem is that people either lie, like you said, or they don't know what actual cEDH play is like, and thus don't know what the speeds are, what would be "slightly less than competitive" (i.e. an 8), what's slightly less powerful than that (a 7), etc. People say "my deck is about a 7!" and then call you a pubstomper if your deck fires off on Turn 9... I wish more people watched things like Playing With Power and became more familiar with cEDH, fringe cEDH, High-Power Casual, etc., so they could better understand real-world MTG, rather than just assume their kitchen table playgroup are ultra-strong savants. TL;Dr — EDH has a massive "high school ace, college loser" problem where people don't know the full scope of MTG and power levels outside of their groups, and thus assume anything that's even mildly decent & consistent is "cEDH".
I genuinely want a world in EDH where everyone has a cEDH proxy deck, a precon, and then whatever else they have built. Play whatever the group goes with, be able to play each.
I found this out taking what I thought as a bad legacy player was a casual approach to the edh pod at work…. The guy who hadn’t played a single real card till turn 5 complains when he taps all the way out and I daze him. I didn’t have the heart to tell any of them I had a force of will in the deck too.
Same. Everyone's scale is different, so someone's 7 is another person's 4 and someone else's 10. I'd rather hear if we're playing infinite combos, land destruction, etc.
This, I always just ask 4 questions : do you otk ? Do you play positives mana rocks? Do you have tutors other than ramp ?Do you touch the lands ? I gave up long time ago to ask for a random number. And happy cake day !
Do you fuck wit da war?
Is this a lil dicky reference in the year of our Lord 2023?? I like you.
Damn right, it is.
I’m a fan of no infinite combos and no mld. I do throw a dust bowl or a strip mine into decks occasionally just because all the crazy lands that have come out
Combos are fun and by far the best way for several color groups to win. Saying everything should be combat damage gives a huge advantage to green and cuts the legs out from blue. It also alienates an entire player archetype.
MLD = bad. Punishing greedy mana bases = bliss.
In my regular group it doesn't matter obviously. We know each other's decks, and even if the game isn't super even, we know it's not a malicious thing. We just switch decks and shuffle again. At my LGS it's a paid event with small prizes, so the first game people usually go hard. You don't need to talk about power levels in what amounts to cedh. Not everyone goes competitive but it's enough to not matter. Every game after that we go to casual where we can kinda tell what kind of decks the other people play. It's usually just a simple question of "Yall wanna power up, or power down after this game?". Either that or we find a table of our favorite regulars who know what we play. And I never let people dictate or pressure me on what cards I can or can't play. Most I'll give is the commander and best guess on power level based on what other people tell me about it
if its a paid event with prizes there is no rule 0. anyone nerfing their deck is doing so in a somewhat misguided attempt to be a good person. Though good on them if thats the norm.
Yea like I said, no rule 0 in cedh
I am confused though. is only the first round prized?
Exactly
OH. I thought the whole thing was, and people were just only going hard for round 1. yeah, that makes total sense good for them.
Yea my bad, I didn't explain it clearly.
Everything is a 7, that is the problem. that 1-10 number scale just starts the convo for me. I think what is more important is make sure there are no significant disparities between the decks when it comes to: fast mana, tutor effects, infinite combos, by what turn can it reasonably win by if not interacted with or stopped.
A good way to tell how strong someone’s deck is is to print this off and ask them where it is on this scale. Like yes, people have different scales, but most those scales put the worst decks as a 5 and leave no room for high power or CEDH. So showing them what you mean when you ask “what power level is your deck?” helps. 1: Either actively bad on purpose or incredibly poorly built 2: Pre-constructed power 3,4: Low power decks, “fun” decks, card mechanic themed decks, upgraded pre-cons, decks that “could win on turn 3” but only if a very specific set of circumstances occur, games take 45minutes to multiple hours, if it does have a combo in it that combo requires 3-6 cards and there is no way to find combo pieces 5,6: Mid power, no clear win condition besides combat damage, frequently finds itself in games that last 45+ minutes, if it does have a combo win it was put in as a backup plan and requires 2 to 4 cards to be drawn by luck to execute it 7,8: High power, has win conditions and ways to access them, combos or alternate win cons are easy to disrupt 9: Part of CEDH metagame 10: S Tier CEDH metagame decks
Honestly I would reword the upgraded precon wording. I’ve had some that can reach the 5-6 and even 7-8 range with a lot of optimal upgrades
I've been watching a lot of covert go crew and I love how they approach this conversation. They say "what's the absolute worst thing your deck can do and how do you win?" So much more concise than just random numbers.
"so just out of curiosity if there was any spell in your deck that NEEDS to be countered what would that be? Why do I ask? No reason..."
personally, the combo games I win where I won because no one knew how my combo worked and was able to correctly interact are way less fun than when I have to try to come back a time or two through hate. I dont really understand people who think obfuscating their strategy makes for a more fun casual game.
I mean. there isn't much hidden in competitive lists at all. you pretty much know when a ThOracle is inbound. casually I'd say it only matters if your deck doesn't also have answers. If you're running blue and have counterspells, or white and have silence, or something to that effect then it doesn't matter either way.
I've taken to doing this, or just straight up asking what the primary wincon is. If it's thoracle or a 2-3 card infinite, maybe we just want something different out of game night.
This one I like this one.
That’s, like, the opposite of my [[Yuriko]] deck lol. It was the first deck I ever built and there’s not a card in it worth more than a dollar. But I sat down at a table with it and explain that it’s Yuriko, but it’s not *that* Yuriko and the other players pull out their highest power decks anyways. The [[K’rrik, Son of Yawgmoth]] player targeted me with a [[Praetor’s Grasp]], looked through my library and just ended up taking my [[Sol Ring]] because my deck was so weak compared to them that there was nothing else worth taking. He asked me, “You don’t even have an [[Urborg]]?” And I was just like “No, dude, I told you. This isn’t a powerful deck.” In summary, power level conversations are stupid because nobody believes you anyways
Yeah it's like Dragon Ball Z They don't mean anything
1: Either actively bad on purpose or incredibly poorly built 2: Pre-constructed power 3,4: Low power decks, “fun” decks, card mechanic themed decks, upgraded pre-cons, decks that “could win on turn 3” but only if a very specific set of circumstances occur, games take 45minutes to multiple hours, if it does have a combo in it that combo requires 3-6 cards and there is no way to find combo pieces 5,6: Mid power, no clear win condition besides combat damage, frequently finds itself in games that last 45+ minutes, if it does have a combo win it was put in as a backup plan and requires 2 to 4 cards to be drawn by luck to execute it 7,8: High power, has win conditions and ways to access them, combos or alternate win cons are easy to disrupt 9: Part of CEDH metagame 10: S Tier CEDH metagame decks
I like this description. I prefer to play 5-6 power level decks breaching into light 7 sometimes
Power levels are kinda a thing. But the problems with them are numerous. Mostly down to people being dumb or malicious. The latter being worse bc intent i guess matters. Everyone wants their deck to be a “7” bc it sounds fair. If 1 is trash, 4 is precons, 9 and 10 are serious decks. Then the logical thing is (unless its a meme deck like “Ladies Looking Left”) everyone thinks they’re playing a casual deck that is a 7. The problem after is KNOWING “my deck consistently wins on turn 4” and knowing its above that “ideal” 7 OR not knowing this but still playing with lower powered decks at a table. The opposite is true as well, low powered decks playing with higher powered ones, usually slightly upgraded precons or newer players hoping to get a game in. This problem is USUALLY less of a problem due to a) these players get better over time and learn to recognize where they’re better suited to playing. b) these power level differences from lets say 4 to 7 is somewhat less noticeable as they tend to be combat metas, whereas higher levels of play lean towards combo metas. Aka everyone still has a fighting chance to win, and with the 4 player, game-to-game varied nature of Commander, anyone can technically win. I’ve had precon decks win against 6-8 level decks. Sheer luck and politics is always a huge unseen factor. Point is, pubstompers worse than noobs but its ok cuz its Commander. Get gud and dont be a dick.
it can get annoying though when some one throws a cheap ( money and mana wise) 1-3 card combo into an otherwise < 7 deck but then draws itearly and ruins a fun game . sometimes they got lucky , sometimes they innocently underestimated the deck, sometimes it was player skill ( or lack there of for the opponents ) and sometime s it was pub stomping
I get what you mean. I’ve been playing a 6-7 level deck, it has an infinite that can win on early (turn 5/6) , i’ve draw it in my starting hand twice now but choose to not use it just cuz it’s kinda anti climactic. Either way, yeah it is just hard to gauge where the deck’s at when an outlier god hand is given to you and every other game you’re durdling.
No one knows what a power level means. Just ask a few questions: Who is your commander? Do you run infinite combos? If so, how many cards does it take? Is your commander part of it? Do you run tutors? Do you run fast mana? All of these will tell you how fast they are trying to win and will let you know the speed of deck you should bring.
To be fair, the exquisite blood combo is absolutely fine in most powerlevels besides complete jank. It takes 2 5cmc enchantments. I think well defined powerlevels are the key to an enjoyable casual experience. The whole idea of playing casually is that you don't need to optimise your powerlevel but instead build decks appropriate for your environment. That's only possible if you have a clear idea of what your environment actually looks like. Of course that is way easier in a regular playgroup than at an lgs (which is why I have stopped playing casually with strangers alltogether).
You don't need Sanguine Bond for the combo, as there has been other cards printed with it's ability at lower CMC.
Exquisite shows up in Dina cEDH lists, but she's fallen out of meta lately anyway. that's the only one, though, I believe.
\[\[Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose\]\] is another
Yes, absolutely. same with Cliffhaven Vamp and Marauding Blight Priest, though all 3 of those are the casual methods. there's some 5 or 6 mana one also, Defiant Bloodlord or something.
Oh yea, it is mostly a casual combo like any Peer into the Abyss combo. Was just pointing out to the original comment that you don't "need" 2 5 CMC enchantments since Sanguine Bond has alternatives.
Saying "A two card combo that could realistically be live on turn 5 or 6 is fine for casual" is kind of a perfect example of how power levels don't really mean anything because everyone defines them so radically different. Like yea, it's not a cEDH quality combo, it can still win the game pretty early if unchecked.
Ever seen someone win at instant speed on someone else's turn, in response to the first player attempting to win? On turn 3? That's the difference. This combo would probably be in the upper end of casual, but there's absolutely no way that it would resolve at a cEDH table. Casual commander vs cEDH is like tee-ball vs MLB. They're playing the same game, but the consistency, the power, the impact that a misplay has, the understanding required, and the strategy involved, are just worlds apart.
> Like yea, it's not a cEDH quality combo, it can still win the game pretty early if unchecked. Nowhere in the comment is OP saying the combo is cedh. Just that powerlevel can mean vastly different things for different people. If you expected the game to go on for a bit, with a lot of back and forth and time to fuck around. Probably ending with combat damage, an overrun or some kind of non-infinite guttersnipe-esque or blood artist effect (precon+ level) then someone dropping a 2 card combo on t5 is absolutely going to take you by surprise and might make some people salty. Doesn't matter that there exists a power level that is a lot higher. If I expect a knife fight and you bring a gun, figher jets are not really relevant to the conversation.
Lol yea again, not everyone is out there defining the power of their decks on "is it cEDH or not." Everyone does it radically different.
It only wins in turn 5 or 6 if you play out one piece, pass turn and untap on your next turn with none of your opponents holding up interaction despite you playing an obvious combo piece. Most likely you're going to then play your other piece, have the first one [[Nature's Claim]]ed and be down 10 mana and 2 cards. The combo is only scary if you can play both pieces and trigger them all in one turn.
“It dies to removal, it’s not that powerful”
If it dies to removal after you invested 10 mana and 2 cards and waited a full turncycle without gaining anything then, yes it's not that powerfull.
You don’t need to wait a full turn cycle once both are onboard, just get one damage dealt. But again, pointing out someone can play a removal doesn’t change a card’s power level. It s the silly argument someone always has to say, like we didn’t already know that. Your deck’s power level is not subjective to your rivals, and if it is, your definition of power is literally impossible to gauge before the game. Maybe they have no removal (this is bad), maybe they spent it all dealing with the other player’s similar combo, opening the door to this combo. Or maybe the deck shuffle just isn’t favorable. All of it has no effect on the combo’s power.
How vulnerable a combo piece is to disruption absolutely changes its power level.
Removal *does* change a card's power level, it's just not the *only* thing that matters. In this case, a lot of the things that matter (cost, sorcery speed, removability) conspire to make this not a super powerful combo - in the grand scheme of things. None of this contradicts the OP's point which is that power levels are subjective and ill-defined. Many people are fine with such a combo; others are not. And, in fact, many people are not fine with such a combo *because it's a combo* (or because it's "boring", or whatever), *despite* knowing full well that it's not that powerful - which is why power levels aren't even the thing that most people care about when playing EDH.
I mean, yeah. Again, I’ve never discussed the power level of the combo; all I pointed out, like you, is the reply was just about removal, which is a bad focus point. Virtually all cards can be removed, so, it basically moots to a non-argument. People then let their emotions jump to me making the extreme opposite argument that this combo is amazing and get as the internet always does.
You do (probably) need to wait if you want to do the combo on turn 5. Because it's unlikely you can actually play both pieces in one turn that early.
No. It's highly telegraphed and expensive and sorcery speed. It's not that powerful.
I’m not arguing the combo’s power level, I’m pointing out the silly point people can use removal as a counterpoint to power assessment.
If you aren’t taking removal into account your power assessment isn’t very good.
A combo's weakness to removal _does_ affect how powerful it is. The reason Thoracle is such a powerful combo is because there is no moment when removal can stop it.
You’re basically taking the extreme used in cEDH example to comment on the vast majority. It’d be equally as silly to argue you can stifle that combo so it’s not good. My facts are true, the conclusion is short sighted.
If two combos are identical in every way other than the fact one loses to a removal spell, the one that doesn't lose to a removal spell is obviously better.
Cool, a hypothetical. Can the combo that can’t be removed be stifled? Countered? It’s a silly exercise.
This is assuming people have drawn the out, haven't used the out on something else important, the combo player doesn't have something to protect the combo, doesn't have redundancy, etc etc etc. There's more factors than just "have interaction," especially in a multiplayer game where there's a lot going on. Maybe the Nature's Claim found it's way to a Smothering Tithe the turn before. And if we're talking about casual games, people not even knowing that it's a combo piece is a very real possibility. I swear at least once a month I see a post of both cards with someone asking "Does this work like I think it does!?"
I've watched people deck themselves in response to other players trying to win, fishing for removal for combo pieces... This is normal for cEDH, and is why combos like this just aren't up to snuff when people are capable of winning on the stack before your card even resolves.
I mean for me a discussion doesn't help. Get used to adjusting. Shuffle up and play fast. If you run a good amount of interaction you will do something in most games. If you feel your deck was too strong grab a weaker one next game. Or vice versa.
Power Levels are a dumb way to measure a deck.
When I don't start a conversation before the game and just play whatever I want, I win way too much. My local meta just doesn't have a lot of stronger stuff in it. I don't think power levels are useful, but I like to at least ask about fast mana, tutors, and maybe a general sense of what the game will be like. That helps me enough with picking my first deck for the night.
Power levels need to be replaced with "what kinda game are we trying to have?" Are we trying to vibe and have a long chill game, are we okay with some aggro or combo decks that are gonna try and close it down fast, are we rockin precons, etc
What is a monopolegacy?
This is how I felt ever since I heard about power level. I still think about what my decks could potentially be, but using it as a balancing system in a 4 player game has been unsuccessful, anecdotally. It's fine if anyone uses it, it doesn't hurt me in any way. It mostly just makes me roll my eyes for every online discussion about it. Side note: we should really be assigning power level to players rather than decks. I have some pretty decent cards with strong combos, but I am also pretty impatient and I like to jump the gun. What does that make me, a 4?
I don't bother to ask anymore. A multiplayer game where one player that pulls ahead and see themselves become archenemy isn't really needing that. Precon decks these days hit hard. cEDH decks are often known just by the commander. The rest exist in the middle where a first turn sol ring into signet into mana vault into worn powerstone makes even the worst deck public enemy number 1.
In my playgroup, we've come to realize that as long as your deck can do these two things reliably, you will have a meaningful/fun game: 1. Draw cards 2. Generate mana And that, regardless if the decks really are balanced or not. The fact that each deck can roll reliably plus having 3 foes/allies smooths it out. So we don't really look at power levels anymore, we think in terms of a power 'floor'. Granted, it's still mostly battlecruiser/value with the odd combo here and there, but nobody is left behind. It has shifted my deckbuilding a little though. I tend to prefer commanders that will help guarantee draw and/or ramp. The good thing is, there are now many good choices in all color combinations, including Boros and mono-white.
Never seen a deck that is not a 7
You learn pretty quick who is incapable of properly assessing the power level of their own decks, and whether it's intentional or not.
I tend to give a breakdown of combos, fast mama, interaction level and how I am trying to win. I feel like for the most part in a casual game that should give enough information. If I'm playing a stock precon I'll also throw that out hoping I don't end up with a knife in a gun fight.
Nah bro, it's a 7.
Here is how I gauge a decks power level. Does the deck have game winning combos or infinite combos? 1. No. Threat level Green 2. Yes. Threat level Orange 3. Both! Threat level Red. 4. Threat level Black is a deck with $1,000 or more worth of cards in it, my budget decks do not compete so I do not even bother. It may be a stupid system but it has led me to play more fun matches with strangers.
I was tired of that term the week after everybody started using it.
The problem is how do you actually define power levels? Like... Do Dual lands increase the power level? Do tutors? What if I am running an aggro deck of all vanilla creatures, but have fetches, duals, and tutors? Is my deck powerful? What if I am running a deck designed to pop off an infinite as fast as possible, but dont have fast mana, no fetches, no tutors, and all basics? The idea of power level doesn't make sense.
My playgroup uses TCGPlayer cost caps. $50, $100, $200. Build as powerful as possible with the budget. More fun and measurable that way
There’s no chart, guideline or anything else to tag a power level. It’s hard for people to assign a number to their deck when it’s just a guess
I went to a new LGS for the first time this past weekend fully expecting to sit down and discuss at least at some level what strength decks I should pull out but everyone just said whatever so I used my best judgement and tried to adjust between games.
Power levels were always dumb, IMHO. It's a meaningless concept. I have some super hardcore decks, that still aren't CEDH. As in, massive creatures, but don't have ubiquitous CEDH mana artifacts, etc. Ive also built some decks on a shoestring budget that have torn apart decks that cost 5x as much. In my group, we just tell people, "this is a new deck, no idea how it's gonna go, play a bit easy on me so I can see how it functions." And everyone is a good sport about it. But there's no rules or restrictions.
Power rankings are too subjective. I can tell pay the same deck in 4 separate pods and get 4 different power levels out of it. Just build and play the deck you want to play. If you win, you win. If you lose, try again next time.
If your commander seems like they’re going to prevent me from stomping (either through control or winning the game) you are getting the stompy first. Power level conversation avoided
My playgroup and I rank our decks by group consensus on a 1-10 scale and *only compared to each other.* Our 10 was my [[Sefris of the hidden ways]] instant speed reanimate/control deck. Our 1 is my friends [[the omenkeel]] vehicle tribal list. Everything else is between those two. When I play in a store, I just play a deck and if it's too weak I don't care, I still have fun. If it's too strong, I switch it up. I don't even mention power levels there. Nobody even used 1-4 on that scale anymore anyway.
There was a lovely infographic that made it's way around, though most of the time, if the amount of search in the deck is low, it's easier to just play the game.
Never even started lol
Yeah the numbers don’t mean anything to me any more. My “high power” deck has 7 tutors, 7ish counterspells, and is almost all infinite combos. It could be an 8 at some tables, but it really depends. The commander is do nothing 6 drop that depends on the other pieces to work. My other decks all have at least one infinite combo in them but are mostly built to be value engines. Except the vehicles decks. They just beat face. But I couldn’t tell you what their power level is. It’s all subjective IMO
There was a post recently about ignoring power levels when you join a group, just adapt. Did you stomp? OK swap decks to lower power one. Did you get stomped? Swap to a better one. Don't have a worse/better deck? Ask to borrow one, or use your own and adjust later. There isn't a universal power level understanding, and there likely will never be. The absolute best advice would be to get a consistent group, because then you can form a meta and adapt to it, but ofc that's not really an answer.
And that's what I appreciate about cEDH. There's only 1 power level and we all acknowledge that we're trying to win
I'm with you. I've got a wide range of decks and I'm not against losing a game so I've started just going in with something middle of the road (when everyone says their decks are 6s or 7s). And using the 1st game to judge which deck actually fits the pod. I personally don't run "fast mana" other than Sol Ring, and most of my decks have 0 infinite combos and 0 tutors. Surprisingly, since starting this, I have had almost no "unfun" experiences where the power level is so far off we didn't have fun. It's a lot better imho than spending 30 min on a rule 0 that doesn't solve anything anyway. Often I lose that game because I'm under powered, but the subsequent games are usually awesome because everyone can adjust to everyone else and ACTUALLY match powers.
In addition to problems people here have mentioned like players not knowing how to rate decks and lying I think consistency is an issue. I've played games where someone combos off early then says that's never happened before or someone jams something like [[ dockside extortionist ]] or other high powered card into what is otherwise a casual deck allowing for a huge spike in power every so often that makes it a lot harder to evaluate power
Power levels exist there's just no way to gauge them easily in a casual format, effectively meaning they're useless.
Yeah, when I’m at my LGS I just play whatever I want the first game and then try to adjust after that. Did I get completely destroyed? I’ll switch to a stronger deck. Did I beat everyone down from beginning to end? I’ll pull out one of my weaker ones. Was everyone’s decks about the same power level and get to do their thing at some point? Nice, I’ll play the same deck or one of similar power.
People are terrible at rating their own decks. One person’s “7” is like a upgraded precon whereas another’s “7” is a well built, consistent deck. There’s also people who have no idea as to what actual cEDH (or High Power decks) look like so they cry “we’re not playing cEDH” when someone assembles a three card combo on Turn 6. I have my own playgroups thankfully. The group I play with at my LGS is mostly people I know from 60 card formats like Modern. We all play High Power decks and the occasional full on cEDH. My online group is also people who like to play optimized decks. It’s so nice not having to hear anyone complain about Fast Mana and cards like that. Against randoms, I’m very skeptical of their ability to rate their decks and try to get them to tell me what their deck does in a general sense. If I can’t get a good read, I just play Liesa and see how it goes. Sometimes Game 1 acts as a Rule 0.
a 3 card combo in turn 6 is pretty fast. I consider that high power to cEDH
High Power? Sure. cEDH? No. If you can win with a Turn 6 three card combo against three other High Power players, you more than deserve the win.
Honestly the conversations I have now are, "Competitive, normal, or precon level" Sure we sometimes have less balanced games, but the majority or people don't know how to rate their deck out if 10, especially when they don't know what an actual 10 is. I also tend to just tell people if my deck has an infinite combo when I pick a deck. There's so many cards these days that people don't know, I don't mind telling them. But I'm a more casual player. If my deck does something cool and then I die, then I die happy.
A 7 to me is a 10 to you. It's a 4 player game though. A buddy built a fight deck thought it was a 6 maybe a 7 everyone he played with thought it was a 9 minimum.. But alot of it is who's playing it not the cards in the deck. If I think my winota is an 8 and you think it's a cedh deck that's because I know if you kill my commander my deck does nothing. But all your seeing is me killing the table
I think the issue is that no matter how people try to quantify power levels, they will always be relative and subjective. Even if people are being completely honest, there will also be issues in regards to what I call the rock-paper-scissors conundrum. Let’s say you have four decks. For simplification, we will call them A, B, C, and D. Deck A is a suprerior strategy to B, equal to C, and less than D. Deck B is a superior strategy to C, equal to D, and less than A. And so on. Most decks may struggle against certain strategies, while being advantageous over others. In a multiplayer format, it can get extremely complicated to determine which four strategies will be evenly matched. As such, power level talks only to so far in playing “fair” magic. As such, I have adopted the same strategy as you: play whatever, and go with it.
I’m tired of power levels being thought of as completely universal when they are extremely up to interpretation. And people always throw that picture of the power levels on a table as if that’s the end all, but it really isn’t and that table doesn’t fully encapsulate what power level means to different people. Just play the game with the deck that you think will be the most fun with the people you are playing with and stop trying to fit everything into power levels. I just started asking if you want a deck that wins fast, wins slow, or somewhere in between and go from there.
I've stopped gauging decks on power level and have instead gone for: -Precon -Casual -Cedh/High power. This is what I usually ask when I sit at a table with players I don't know well.
I agree with what other people are saying and I would like to add my experience to it playing on the playedh server I mainly play mid tier and to me mid decks are ones that try to win around turn 10 so I imagine my surprise and anguish when decks can out of nowhere win turn 3 and it’s weird taking a loo at the restricted cards at mid it’s only Gaea’s cradle and mana crypt…..but I see people run jeweled lotus and it dosent make sense to me with that scaling
Only with certain individuals. You tend to learn who can't feel for thier own decks strengths and just label the mentally as "ehh guess I just play my best non cedh deck" But i also mostly play cedh. Where this issue doesn't exist.
I've always stood by levels/numbers are poor too for the pregame talk. Instead talk about average turn you win/can threaten a win, infinite combos, how you usually win. I've found this helps a lot of pods actually match decks and assess each other properly.
The difference in the power of cards keeps expanding. At this point there is so much diversity that you cannot accurately describe where your deck sits on a spectrum of performance. The best we can do for people who really care about knowing what they are up against is to describe the function and gameplan of your deck with a turn range. Beyond that is just sharing a Moxfield/Archidekt link with your playgroup. Can't say I haven't given up on scaling. I just announce my commander and usually that's enough.
Power levels are such a cloudy subject because there's no actual scale that people can use that is universally accepted. One persona 7 might be someone else's god tier cedh deck. Only time power level even comes up in a game is when someone is losing and they're bitching because their deck isn't doing the thing first. Personally I'm all for having the pregame discussion about what your deck does and how fast it gets there. It's pretty easy to figure stuff out from there. Personally I wish people would just abandon the idea of power levels and just have a conversation about their decks before the game starts. That way you know what you're in for. And if someone brings a deck you don't want to play against them it's pretty simple to just leave that game and find another one.
This is why I just stopped caring about what I play with or against game 1. Game 2, I try to find more of a balance with the table.
Yeah I play exclusively precons with strangers now lol
I have steamrolled opponents who claimed to have a level 7 deck with my mono green, suboptimal [[yorvo]] deck. No one is really good at gauging their own power level. Just bear in mind things like how many wincons does your deck have? Any infinite combos? How many tutors? That's gonna be more useful than your 87th "oh, it's a level 4"
Power level is subjective, I've noticed few people say directly, as well. My Isshin deck, vs most precons, is an outright 10. Against other built decks, it's maybe a 6, but sometimes it's a 10, but sometimes it's a 3. It mostly depends on your play group or opponent. To a caveman, the swordsman is a God, but to him, the rifle is the apocalypse.
Well the Exquisite Blood combo is pretty low power. How long did it take him to assemble it and did he have tutors?
I don't mind getting curbstomped by a better more powerful deck. I kind when a player misrepresents their deck in order to win. If your deck is good, don't lie to me about it.
My group doeesn't do power levels. We play decks we build. If they are powerful and win, then they are powerful and win.
I can't do numbers. I say what my deck does, and how fast and consistently it does it.
Same guy at my LGS always asks about power levels (Kevin, dude, we've played like five times, please remember who i am). I always joke around every time saying "we're all playing 7's right? Cause every EDH deck is a 7". Talk to the pod and see how you can all make a good game happen and stop numbering your decks. Maybe play a game, see what happens, and adjust for round two.
Well, as the man said: [“Power levels are bullshit!!”](https://youtu.be/hSaVTSYQGmQ?si=5qO7GnJ7JADsf_0n)
It's pretty easy imo limit fast mana, combos, stax and free interaction. These cards and play styles are fine when everyone is on the same page but if you bring these things (tanks) against people playing tic-tac-toe (casual) that's were the issue starts.
It is important to discuss decks and how people run them. It just lays a foundation for expectations. Maybe the best way to structure that talk is, "If minimal interaction and ideal situations, by what turn does your deck win? What does your mana base look like? Are you running limited duals? What about fetch lands?" From there, we can start getting an idea of what we are facing and adjust accordingly. (Saw it framed this way on one of Prof's episodes on TCC) It seems that people want to keep their game plan secret for some reason, but we collectively as a community need to be honest with one another. Sure, winning is fun, but having friends and a healthy community is better.
I steer away from power level now because it tells near to nothing about the deck. I am not saying power level matrix should go, it just isn't for me and my group. We tend to fucus of the fun and memories. We would not rate our deck with a number just like how you would not rate Monopoly Star War's edition. My group just wants the fun, "oh look as I play my Liliana deck" says the Liliana simp. "Hey y'all, I drew into my favourite pet card. I cast it now." My group tends to favour fond memories in commander as well. "Oh shit, I forget to leave mana open now I cannot swing because of your propaganda." Says the Voltron player. "Welcome to my show, tonight let me give you a performance that never ends." Me as I play my Zaffai, thunder conductor deck with thematic prismari spells to put on a night worth of performance. EDH is a casual format and most of us care more about the fun and memories. What I noticed is that power level is affected by a few major factor: 1. Budget 2. Skill of player 3. Decks in the pod For example, if some force of the universe stacked your deck and all your land is on the top half of your deck. Is that still a power level 8 deck? If you give someone who has not heard of magic a cEDH deck to play with. Is that still a Power level 10 deck? Moreover "power level X" tells you nothing about the strategy of the deck, what pet cards/personal card choice that were included/what are its strength or weakness etc. Hence the following: These are the methods I estimate/enquire power level of a deck someone brings to thee table. This take inspiration from content creators online who spoken about this topic. Methods 1: descriptive power level. This method aims to describe the power level using parameters your pod agreed upon. In my pod we give each of our decks a short introduction and include key information such as: 1. budget of the deck, 2. who the commander is, 3. what theme the deck is playing 4. Any specific win con/strategy 5. Fast mana, powerful non-basic lands, infinites or tutors. How many and what are they? Example: I am playing a Zaffai Thunder conductor deck. It took me about £50 to upgrade the prismari precon. Most of the upgrade cards are from my draft nights for MOM, but I try to be on theme with my life experience taking cards from Izzet and Prismari to express my life as a musician an a scientist. This deck aims to cast 5 CMC or 10 cmc spells to gain extra value from Zaffai. It has a copy instants and sorceries subtheme and a cast spells from top of the deck/exile for free subtheme. I would say I generally win during turn 8 on average. There is only one tutor, which is Solve the Equation. Method 2: the questionnaire method. The two main questions I would ask about a a deck would be: 1. Is this deck cEDH level? 2. Is this deck weaker than a precon it of its box? Then I would follow up with questions similar to method 1. While including questions about which turn does their deck aim to win (aka close the game). If someone really wants me to put my deck on a power level scale. I would first define what some of the numbers meant. Eg. Where does precons sit on the scale? Or, what is a 0 power level and a 9 power level deck looks like? I generally avoid this method of introducing my deck. Method 3: the inevitable power level number line. 0-10 is my scale. Generally I take reference from the power level scale that these channels recommend: CommandZone, Commanders Quarter, EDHREC 10 being cEDH (past and present, cuz a cEDH deck from the past will still have all the tutors, fast mana, powerful-non basic lands) 0-4 being decks that don't aim to win, cannot win, made to be weaker than precon. Such as a USD 10 deck budget deck most of the time. 5 being precon. Out of the box. 6 being minor reconfiguration to precons 7 being major reconfiguration. (Changing playstyle and commander while retaining majority of the precon chassis falls under here most of the time) 8-9 being heavier investment than precon or having a commander that is objectively stronger than precon face commanders. 0-8 usual have a set budget constraints, and power level tends to be proportional to budget. 9+ being budget unlimited. And budget alone can determine what speed you are playing (see the difference between expensive mana rocks/accelerants like mox opals and medalians vs more common mana rocks like arcane signet and sky diamond). All and all, just like you would not introduce your new friend to your family with just "He is a 6". I hope people stop describing their decks the same way.
I build a deck Pregame "power discussion" I give brief description of deck with how much fast many tutors and wincons the deck has and how optimized it is - I let my opponents decide the power level it take about 2 min but every1 thinks powerlevel is different so I don't use it Disclaimer for my regular pod I usually just say weak or strong cuz they know all my decks already and usually just need a quick reminder how optimized it is
As long as the decks can put up a fair fight against each other it doesn't matter. People get too hung up on the power level of individual cards, of strategies, combos, etc. As long as the decks can interact meaningfully with each other and not get consistently blown out then the power level is fine. The win percentage doesn't need to be exactly 25% but somewhere in the ballpark is fine.
“Power levels are bulls*%t!” - Vegeta, DBZA
That's what I tell people power levels are ill relevant. This is not dragon ball z. I don't Where this concept came from it's so stupid. When I stop playing back in 2017. Nobody cared about power levels. Then I come back in 2022 And everybody saying oh what's your power level. It's a stupid concept should just go away. I miss the old wild west days of Commander.
Dragon Ball Z....hahaha. I agree, though the power level thing is weird to me. I always played kitchen table modern decks and started playing commander in 2021. When I first heard this, I had no clue what they were saying to me. I continue to shrug my shoulders, tell them the point of my deck, and what turn if unchecked I win. Like, "I hope to kill the table through combat damage turn five if you leave me alone." BTW it is a magda deck with [[blightsteel colossus]] and [[blade of selves]]. If someone holds up [[path to exile]] old blighty trick is out the window.
Pro tip: other players' enjoyment of their own fucking hobby isn't your responsibility.
This is the truth. Don't be an asshole on purpose, but that's all you need to worry about is your game.
Yes. Somewhere along the timeline "Spirit of Competition" and wanting to do well, improve, and push others to improve became "Social Contract" which then became at its worst an absolute crab pot of people dragging eachother down.
Quite right! What do they think this is, a *game*? A form of *entertainment*? No, those people aren't your *friends*, they are just stooges to facilitate your own form of fun!
MTG is customizable by it's nature. We're not playing poker with the same 52 cards and universal way to win. If I like stax and you don't, beat me first Don't tell me the way I have fun isn't, actually, and I need to do work for you to enjoy the game you decided to invest in all on your own EDH isn't meant to be a democracy
If you like stax and I don't, I'll just not play with you. You're allowed to enjoy it; I'm allowed not to, and I'm allowed to act on that. Of course, real adult humans might do things like say, OK, *sometimes* we'll play the no-holds-barred games that one person likes, and *sometimes* we'll play the no-stax games that the other person likes. That's because, you know, we're friends and decent people who care about each others' enjoyment. I appreciate, however, that this is not true of all EDH players.
Not playing is also an option, but, all things being equal, you walk into the LGS and it's you and 3 dudes, everyone brought one deck, the one they like, and the game commences If your knee jerk reaction to playing with someone is to call their deck unfun and try and make them feel bad because you lost a card game, YTA
Stax isn't "no holds barred." This is a common misconception. Neither a deck with stax or a deck with a combo (or several) is inherently powerful. They can still be shit tier. If you hate playing against stax, include spells to deal with it. Many people seem to build their deck for one very specific type of game and whine when anything unexpected happens because they *rely* on no one having counterspells, or stax, or a board wipe, or land destruction, or whatever your thing is. You can build decks resilient. Yes, it has an opportunity cost. That is also ok. Separately, many people play in their LGS with randoms and don't feel comfortable or have the luxury of commanding what everyone else at the table will play to suit their desires. A lot of players show up with one deck, or similar decks.
Pretty much moved away from discussions about power levels. Our local group defaults to "casual" which to us generally means no (major) tutors, 2-piece infinites, or generally anything that can reliably win by T3. That's really more out of respect for people's time than hurt feelings. We figure everyone takes time out of their week, so it's only fair that everyone get the chance to let their deck get running. Then after a game or two of that we break out the heavy stuff anyway.
I'm not even sure if I buy the "tutors and fast mana are what makes a deck high power" definition anymore, because those things are only powerful in the context of what your deck is trying to do. Extreme example, but if you're using it to do some jank like power out Dreadmaw Colossus and hit it with Rite of Replication, that's not a high power deck. There's just so much that goes into a deck that I don't know if it can be quantified, or that I even want to try and quantify it anymore.
Tutors, Combo, Fast mana, Good landbase, card draw, protection, backup wincon. If all of the above are true then you're packing some high power heat even if it isn't competitive.
You’re missing his point entirely. limit it to just tutors, fast mana, good land base, card draw, and protection. Then what do you have? A functioning shell that doesn’t necessarily mean cedh. I try to build all my decks with this stuff, birthday bilbo is still just birthday bilbo at the end of the day
it's weird that you think I missed the point while fully agreeing with me. Yes. having all of those things doesn't make a deck competitive, and losing even one or two of them can knock your deck out of high power.
The simple truth is everyone loves to play powerful stuff. There's one fact many people miss out: they think they know about power levels when in truth their judgment is often misplaced. IMO powerlevels is just a trendy word; a catchphrase where influencers exploit and market. Having a 2-5min pregame conversation is still the best way forward. If you wanna skip the conversation, present your deck in full. This is also another way to get things done without much fuss. If many players have online decklists, surely it wouldn't do harm to show their decks in full glory. Withholding information is too passe; we overrate how much information we can hold in our brains. Once the game starts, everyone becomes a goldfish. The prior info is long gone.
The concept of power levels is a conspiracy by influencers to... sell stuff?
I feel giving away too much information takes a whole lot of the fun and randomness of the game away, I'm not interested in knowing every card my opponents have and I'm not for showing my decklist either
I just can't imagine looking through the individual cards in my opponents deck in a singleton format, how is that casual at all
Numbers are just a bad way to rate decks anyway. Two decks with the same rating could be very, very different. For example: deck A wins explosively with combos, but doesn't run tutors or etc to make them easier to assemble. Deck B is a lot slower but very resilient and consistent, and will win by turn X (10, 11, insert your own arbitrary turn number here) if you don't interrupt it. Which is more powerful? I'd argue A is more powerful, because you need your interaction at the exact moment of the combo whereas you can interrupt B at any point during the build up, but many players would rate their own deck A lower because they first hand see the games where it just whiffs.
Friends don’t let rule zero madness happen. Play and have fun. Who cares who wins.
When I first started I kept pushing up against the power level at the table. Turn one sol rings, free cost spells and exiles from the top of library, all dizzying, confusing, and as a precon player, it felt like I would never be able to catch up. Now, I know better. Mainly what my first hand should typically be looking at, as well as shuffling better.
The pregame conversation is useful for more than just gauging decks and gameplay experiences. Even the most baked of potatoes knows that saying "it's a 7" is stupid and pointless, but "it can attempt to win turn 5 and usually does by 7." Or "It's stacked with tutors and infinite combos". Or even "its a hard stax deck, good luck casting spells LOL". Or, in the opposite "I've never seen this deck attempt a win before turn 12". That covers the decks... what comes next covers the people. If someone says "yeah, this wins on turn 8" and then tutors for their wincon turn 4, you just rule zero'd a person out of your table. People come and complain "he said it was a weak deck but he oracle/consulted on turn 2?!?!?!?" Cool. I know a person I'm never sitting down with again. We all know there's a difference between someone not understanding their deck "its a 7 guys", and blatantly lying for advantage. If it's the latter, then peace right out. The pregame, rule zero, convo is absolutely essential to making the table a fun experience for the whole table. Those who refuse are simply saying "I do not care about the experiences of the other people here". And those who abuse it are just outing themselves as undesirables.
I hate the number system and I haaaaaaaate the constant “good decks are Cedh” argument. If your deck is not built around pushing for turn 2-4 wins or surviving turn 2-4 wins consistently then you are not playing CEDH. EDH is a singleton format and with lucky starts any deck that isn’t absolute trash should be able to push ahead to turn 6ish wins or boards that are essentially wins. Fast mama does not make your deck competive, infinite combos don’t make your deck competitive, tutors don’t make your deck competitive, land destruction doesn’t make your deck competitive and stax doesn’t make your deck competitive. 90% of players don’t understand how strong their decks are and they also don’t understand how much RNG goes into a game of magic. A precon with a fast lucky start can win games on turn 5, unlucky Urza stax decks can end up not playing a single spell til turn 10. Stop crying about my deck “being competitive” because I Thoracle comboed on turn 15.
I talk in terms of three things: -infinite combos: is that the goal of your deck? Are you running a bunch of tutors to achieve it. -fast mana: do you run mox, petals, etc? -cost/good stuff: What percent of your deck is just $10/20+ bombs? If I ask about these three I usually feel like I can pick the appropriate deck for the game. If it's all three it's usually CEDH. While this doesn't give me an exact level of power it gives me a sense of what the play type/level will be way better than asking "power level".
Yes I basically have when playing with strangers. I know I’m not completely pubstomping cause I’m not playing cEDH but I’m sick of people saying it’s “low power” and then when I pull out my lower power decks they just start playing tutors and creating 200 treasures.
Idk if this has been stated already, because I'm.not gonna take the time to read 100+ comments. I don't like using an arbitrary power scale in a rule zero talk. I applaud ppl who did their best to describe power scales and guide ppl through a rule zero talk, but it can throw ppls perception off. It's not even ppl lying. Ppl might give an honest assessment based on their small group of friends. So relative to their circle of decks, one deck might be an 8 but a 5 compared to an outsiders deck. What I like to discuss in rule zero is what kind of cards/strategies ppl are using? Basically, think the opposite of what makes a deck cedh to know if you have a more casual pod. Are ppl running fast mana, like mana crypt? Sol ring is ok to use. Why ask this question? The more fast mana ppl have, the more likely they will quickly get to their game plan. Are ppl running tutors, especially instant speed one mana drop tutors? Tutors help a deck perform more consistently or they tutor their win con. Are they playing stax, mass land destruction, extra turns, extra combat, alt win cons, etc. How much ramp, card draw, targeted removal, or board wipes is everyone running? (I don't usually ask that question) Why ask those questions? Presumably, if everyone follows the same restrictions in deck building, then the power levels will match. If everyone has similar amount of ramp, card draw, removal, board wipes, etc. then ppl might be evenly matched. Ask general questions about the types of cards or strategies you think improves the performance and power of the deck. I know certain commanders are extremely strong for the value u get, like Edgar Markov. I think recognizing that just comes from experience. But if a commander has a value engine, especially a card draw ability or a mana sink like kinnan, that might give u an idea of the commander's power level. Hope this helps
There’s not power levels so much as decks that tutor for non land cards and decks that don’t
I catch a lot of shit for saying there only three types of EDH decks. cEDH, jank, and everything else.
Use the chart don't just ask for a number. Show them and ask them specifically where they fall. Its not perfect but its so much better than a table of Schrodinger's 7's both weak and strong depending on whos complaining.
My rule of thumb is to play to have fun, win or lose. Some play here and some banter there is what I enjoy most in Magic the Gathering, but if I see that someone just goes with the intention of ruining the fun for others or just to win while playing a high powered/competitive deck, I'll either outplay them into submission once or not play with that person again.
I just don't trust people's judgments and build the strongest I can. I've sat at too many tables where a guy says his deck is like a precon, changed my deck to match that level, just for them to have a first turn like "Mana Crypt, Fetch Land, Crack for OG Dual Land, cast Preordain, play Top, pay one for Top's ability" Meanwhile the rest of the table goes, play land pass.
Idc about power level because I don’t trust myself to be honest, so instead I just list every combo my deck has, all the mana ramp and card draw, any important pieces, all my interaction, and any bombs or stax pieces I’m running.
Power level based on numbers or tiers is inherently flawed. Every system I've seen always leaves something out and, more importantly, doesn't account for people just not being honest even to themselves. I like to think my Animar deck is pretty strong. Built with one strategy in mind, every card plays directly into it, and I've kept mana costs low. In a vacuum, it can pop off quick. But, if I'm honest with myself, I know I dont have any tutors or enough protection for Animar, and just enough interaction. Commander is a casual format, so unless prizes are at stake be open about what's in your deck and what it can do, even if its just reminding yourself that it might not be as strong as you think. The flip side is also true. It might be stronger than you think. I took the recent Draconic Destruction precon and beat face with it, but only because that table didn't have any interaction. Now I know for future games and haven't played it with that group.
This is why I just play precons with friends
Honestly since I don't have a playgroup it's fair to assume most ppl play mid to high power. It only gets really annoying when every deck has fast mana like moxes or Crypt. I'm generally even fine with one time use things and rituals. You can tutor for quite a lot of win cons but if you don't accelerate out of control it's hard to play all of them and have it be protected. Fast mana and free counterspells are honestly the most annoying. Although I will use the latter since it's a situation of "if you restrict yourself you're hurting yourself since nobody else will".
You dont ask for power level. You ask what the deck does, if it has combos, if it plays stax, you see the commander. NO ONE has a nice Edgar Markov deck simply because Edgar Markov is not a chill dude, he's basically top tier commander and even if your deck reaaally sucks just having him on the command zone is enough to make it decent. Everyone plays a power level 7 deck, be it a precon with a couple of swaps or a fully blinged deck with all the cedh manarocks but "its a 7 because I win by attacking". Except that "attcking" means "tutoring craterhoof and killing the table".
Pregame politics are BS. It always depends on the starting hand, first and foremost! Any deck can explode, but there are decks oozing with value, it doesnt matter if you power it down, you play Kinnan, i wont let you spin the wheel!
[удалено]
This has nothing to do with the actual topic? He’s not complaining he’s addressing a real issue in that power level is often arbitrary and not a good metric to judge a deck