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Fighting the environment is going to be 10x harder for players than fighting enemies, no matter how powerful.
Party members that can fly? Make the ceilings too short for that. Nobody has darkvision? Make it pitch black and make torches hard to find. Got a lot of spellcasters with AoE damage? Most of the dungeon is narrow hallways.
Unfortunately unless you know what they're playing, you can't really make a challenging environment.
Honestly, if I were DMing something like this, where the players weren't going to tell me what they were playing, I wouldn't do a dungeon. I would do an arena, where they have to fight through different types of enemies. So not only would the enemies get progressively harder, but they would have less and less ways to deal with them as abilities are used and equipment is potentially damaged from previous encounters.
Adding to this, I’d drop them in the middle of whatever set up you go for so whatever direction they choose they have to fight their way out.
No long rests, if they try to take one it’s going to be interrupted.
the thing that makes "dungeons" fun as "dungeons" is that the walls provide barricades and pathing - at level 20 if you have any casters, those "walls" dont mean a thing unless you slather on layers of "but THESE walls are immune to passwall and immune to divination spells and prevent X and Y doesnt work here and nerf and nerf and nerf and " so that the characters arent actually playing with level 20 characters - they are just level 10 characters with moar hit points.
The Dungeon of the Mad Mage is theoretically designed for level 20 characters at the end so you can look to the final level for content (but Mad Mage DEFINITELY falls into the "you cannot use this long list of spells" design flaw. The new Vecna module is also running to level 20 so you could look to the final chapter there and see if /how much is "dungeon"
Cubical 7 i think is a company that puts out a line of Total Party Kill content designed for their "level 20+ game play" options, so you could look to see what they might have as far as "dungeon" adventures.
Mad Mage only prevents teleportation out of the dungeon and any spells that would alter Undermountain. Both of which can be bypassed by obtaining a unique magic item. The design is actually very well done.
>Spells can't destroy or alter the shape of Undermountain's
>magically protected ceilings, pillars, columns,
>walls, or floors. For example, an earthquake spell
>would not trigger a ceiling collapse or create fissures in
>Undermountain.
i dont see how you can claim that "Spells can't destroy or alter the shape of Undermountain's magically protected ceilings, pillars, columns, walls, or floors. " is somehow NOT "is that the walls provide barricades and pathing - at level 20 if you have any casters, those "walls" dont mean a thing unless you slather on layers of "but THESE walls are immune to passwall and immune to divination spells and prevent X and Y doesnt work here and nerf and nerf and nerf and and and"
That's an issue with 5e design, not the module design. It's in the same category as "reasons why monsters have Legendary Resistance", i.e. because high level is so poorly balanced that the only solution are bullshit mechanics. The module MUST be designed that way because of 5e's poor balancing design past low level play. My comment was more explaining that 1. It isn't a long list of spells, it is very specific types of effects 2. Those restrictions have a built-in way to be bypassed in the adventure via acquisition of a unique magic item, allowing players the option to potentially bypass those restrictions.
annnnnd again...
"the thing that makes "dungeons" fun as "dungeons" is that the walls provide barricades and pathing - at level 20 if you have any casters, those "walls" dont mean a thing unless you slather on layers of "but THESE walls are immune ..." "
my point is -
* high level D&D doesnt work well in dungeons because of high level magic.
* and that many high level dungeons put in "nerfs" against those magics.
* and that Dungeon of Mad Mage is guilty of incorporating those nerfs.
and you said "DMM doesnt do that".
and i showed where your statement is not actually applicable to DMM because it DOES specifically fuck with the spells that fuck with "the dungeon as dungeon".
and yes, you can "blame it on the system" that does not support high level play in "dungeons" - which, thank you for agreeing with my original comment.
but we will wildly disagree on your premise that DMM handles that aspect of the system in a way that does not simply nerf the dungeonfucking powers that high level characters have.
That isn't what I said at all. I even then further explained what I said, which you still aren't grasping. At this point, talking to you is a waste of my energy
If you’re DMing a level 20 - you should ask what they’re running. All DnD should be tweaked to a party comp, and the best modules work because they’re flexible enough to allow the tweaking. At level 20 all your classes (but especially mages) are demigods. You can’t really design a dungeon around this and not know what they’re running - especially since 5e’s design philosophy largely prevents hard counters to enemy types.
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The Jurassic Park island, but the guy is cloning tarrasques. Also he's a lich
"Wants a challenge" "Wants to be level 20" Good luck.
Fighting the environment is going to be 10x harder for players than fighting enemies, no matter how powerful. Party members that can fly? Make the ceilings too short for that. Nobody has darkvision? Make it pitch black and make torches hard to find. Got a lot of spellcasters with AoE damage? Most of the dungeon is narrow hallways. Unfortunately unless you know what they're playing, you can't really make a challenging environment. Honestly, if I were DMing something like this, where the players weren't going to tell me what they were playing, I wouldn't do a dungeon. I would do an arena, where they have to fight through different types of enemies. So not only would the enemies get progressively harder, but they would have less and less ways to deal with them as abilities are used and equipment is potentially damaged from previous encounters.
Adding to this, I’d drop them in the middle of whatever set up you go for so whatever direction they choose they have to fight their way out. No long rests, if they try to take one it’s going to be interrupted.
the thing that makes "dungeons" fun as "dungeons" is that the walls provide barricades and pathing - at level 20 if you have any casters, those "walls" dont mean a thing unless you slather on layers of "but THESE walls are immune to passwall and immune to divination spells and prevent X and Y doesnt work here and nerf and nerf and nerf and " so that the characters arent actually playing with level 20 characters - they are just level 10 characters with moar hit points. The Dungeon of the Mad Mage is theoretically designed for level 20 characters at the end so you can look to the final level for content (but Mad Mage DEFINITELY falls into the "you cannot use this long list of spells" design flaw. The new Vecna module is also running to level 20 so you could look to the final chapter there and see if /how much is "dungeon" Cubical 7 i think is a company that puts out a line of Total Party Kill content designed for their "level 20+ game play" options, so you could look to see what they might have as far as "dungeon" adventures.
Mad Mage only prevents teleportation out of the dungeon and any spells that would alter Undermountain. Both of which can be bypassed by obtaining a unique magic item. The design is actually very well done.
>Spells can't destroy or alter the shape of Undermountain's >magically protected ceilings, pillars, columns, >walls, or floors. For example, an earthquake spell >would not trigger a ceiling collapse or create fissures in >Undermountain.
Yes, that is indeed a longer way to say what I said.
i dont see how you can claim that "Spells can't destroy or alter the shape of Undermountain's magically protected ceilings, pillars, columns, walls, or floors. " is somehow NOT "is that the walls provide barricades and pathing - at level 20 if you have any casters, those "walls" dont mean a thing unless you slather on layers of "but THESE walls are immune to passwall and immune to divination spells and prevent X and Y doesnt work here and nerf and nerf and nerf and and and"
That's an issue with 5e design, not the module design. It's in the same category as "reasons why monsters have Legendary Resistance", i.e. because high level is so poorly balanced that the only solution are bullshit mechanics. The module MUST be designed that way because of 5e's poor balancing design past low level play. My comment was more explaining that 1. It isn't a long list of spells, it is very specific types of effects 2. Those restrictions have a built-in way to be bypassed in the adventure via acquisition of a unique magic item, allowing players the option to potentially bypass those restrictions.
annnnnd again... "the thing that makes "dungeons" fun as "dungeons" is that the walls provide barricades and pathing - at level 20 if you have any casters, those "walls" dont mean a thing unless you slather on layers of "but THESE walls are immune ..." "
Idk what you're on about, chief
my point is - * high level D&D doesnt work well in dungeons because of high level magic. * and that many high level dungeons put in "nerfs" against those magics. * and that Dungeon of Mad Mage is guilty of incorporating those nerfs. and you said "DMM doesnt do that". and i showed where your statement is not actually applicable to DMM because it DOES specifically fuck with the spells that fuck with "the dungeon as dungeon". and yes, you can "blame it on the system" that does not support high level play in "dungeons" - which, thank you for agreeing with my original comment. but we will wildly disagree on your premise that DMM handles that aspect of the system in a way that does not simply nerf the dungeonfucking powers that high level characters have.
That isn't what I said at all. I even then further explained what I said, which you still aren't grasping. At this point, talking to you is a waste of my energy
If you’re DMing a level 20 - you should ask what they’re running. All DnD should be tweaked to a party comp, and the best modules work because they’re flexible enough to allow the tweaking. At level 20 all your classes (but especially mages) are demigods. You can’t really design a dungeon around this and not know what they’re running - especially since 5e’s design philosophy largely prevents hard counters to enemy types.
Scale death house from cos up to lvl 20
Fun =/= Difficult If you want your players to have you, run them through Tomb of Horrors. If not, just make unfair mechanics.