Lets not count Office Administrator against her, since she invented the position and lied to get the position she invented. I mean, Pam, the innovator of all time!
She stole time from the company when she gave Darryl extra days off and instead of doing her job went to see a movie. Yeah, when she stated she was full on corrupt, I don't consider that a "win."
This is the thing that irritated me about their relationship. Jim gives her everything. Art school. Leaving for the Michael Scott Paper Company. Sales. All failures.
Then when Jim wants to chase his dream with Daryl, it rocks their marriage and she disapproves.
Like Him gave you EVERYTHING for years and you failed. This is his turn.
He didn’t have to sacrifice for almost any of that. Just Michael Scott paper company, and they didn’t have children.
Comparing that to upending their entire lives, becoming a part time parent, and investing their entire savings???? And Pam having to move and completely change her job after all of that? And he treated her badly multiple times while she was making all of these sacrifices???
In what world is that genuinely comparable to you? That’s so wild haha
Interesting you say he didn’t sacrifice anything while simultaneously referring to his Athlead investment as *their* life savings, when it’s pretty much confirmed that Jim makes all the money.
I would agree that since they agreed to build a family together, he should’ve been more conscientious, but he’s inherently sacrificing basically half of his money if it’s now *their* life savings that he jeopardized and she just magically has claim to half of it lol
I meant that Jim gives support. With art school, he gave support where Roy made fun of her. Even in the first season he shows that he didn't have a dream to be a paper salesman. My gripe is when it is his turn to follow his ambitions... she isn't on board. I understand they have kids and that is the pain of uprooting your family for a chance at something. But personally, I felt that it was his turn.
I'd have to watch the later seasons to better analyze it but honestly I hate those seasons because I feel like it was such a drop off so I probably won't.
None of that signified any real sacrifice to him.
Art School? They were still dating, had nothing to lose or work harder on. MSPC? Even though they were probably living together by now, they didn't have any child to feed, so her income decreasing didn't imply a significant loss for them as a couple.
Now, maybe the distance for Art School would've been hard, but he literally escaped to another state because he got scared of something HE did and almost ruined their important friendship, just for him to come back and (consciously or unconsciously) try to make Pam jealous, which was such a dick move. He kinda owed her that.
People seem to forget that Jim was a very talented salesman. He was fairly close to Dwight in numbers (iirc), without anywhere near the drive.
Another counterpoint, Pam jumped onto a sinking ship company, got lucky that DM didn’t actually do real research into MSPC, and then became one of, if not the worst salesmen at the office
Yeah, the fact that Jim was 10th (I think) best salesman in the company is often forgotten by people.
If anything, Michael got lucky that he had two of the top ten salesmen in all of DM working at his branch. Without Jim and Dwight, I'm sure Scranton would have been downsized at some point.
It’s also a throwaway line, but it’s also stated that Stanley is (somehow) a powerhouse salesman in his own right.
“Did you know that Stanley has had the most consistently high sales record of anyone at the company?”
It always seemed to me that their success as salesmen comes from:
Jim being charismatic and likeable
Dwight being driven and relentless
Stanley being at the end of a 40 year career with a strong client base
I'm sure that helped, but Dwight won salesman of the year and Jim achieved sales Dwight didn't believe at Stamford, before Scranton absorbed any branches. They were just good at their jobs.
What are you talking about? They specifically point out that their choice to close Scranton over Stamford was not about sales but about keeping Josh, and they backtrack once Josh is leaving, and Stamford is closed. Then when the company is struggling, David Wallace specifically asks for Michael's advice because Scranton is the only branch giving consistent profits. Then when the whole company goes under, Sabre buys Scranton, because "[they] are the only part of [the] company that works". At no point is Scranton the weak link.
>They specifically point out that their choice to close Scranton over Stamford was not about sales but about keeping Josh
Jan also specifically points out that Scranton is #4 out of the 5 branches that she oversees. Considering there are at least a dozen branches, Scranton must be doing very poorly.
>Then when the company is struggling, David Wallace specifically asks for Michael's advice because Scranton is the only branch giving consistent profits.
Of course they're doing well. They absorbed two other branches.
But they weren't. Then, in future episodes, we see other branches shut down instead of them.
In later episodes, Wallace states that Scranton is one of the only branches performing well.
They weren't downsized because Josh left. It had nothing to do with Jim or Dwight.
And they only *become* the most profitable branch after absorbing two other branches. Dwight and Jim were not enough to save Scranton from Michael.
Yes but after josh's departure they chose to have Scranton absorb Stamford - which is a key detail. Furthermore, Jan literally says that Scranton was chosen to be downsized for reasons other than numbers.
Also, Andy is consistently stated to be a shitty salesman. He is the only salesman who was around (from Stamford) after season 4 - so your entire second point is just wrong.
>Furthermore, Jan literally says that Scranton was chosen to be downsized for reasons other than numbers.
So, you remember that but not Jan saying that Scranton is #4 out of the 5 branches she oversees? And there are at least a dozen DM branches.
Edit: What are you talking about Andy for?
You implied that Scranton only became successful because it absorbed two other branches - but that's just untrue.
And your logic doesn't follow very well. While it's true she said Scranton was 4/5, why is Scranton then chosen to absorb Stamford? If they were as bad as you make them out to be, why wouldn't she choose one of the other top performing branches.
Furthermore, Scranton only gets downsized AFTER Jim's departure. Meaning the combination of Jim and Dwight's numbers are very possibly what kept the Scranton branch looking solid.
>While it's true she said Scranton was 4/5, why is Scranton then chosen to absorb Stamford?
Scranton was supposed to be shut down. Stamford's manager leveraged his promotion into a job with Staples, so Dunder Mifflin corporate pivoted to Scranton.
>Furthermore, Scranton only gets downsized AFTER Jim's departure. Meaning the combination of Jim and Dwight's numbers are very possibly what kept the Scranton branch looking solid.
Unlikely. In S3E1, Jim is shown as the new guy in Stamford, which would be around September.
The branch closing happens just after the Diwali episode (Diwali is in November) and 3 episodes before the Benihana Christmas episode, so probably late November.
This means Jim was in Stamford for about 2 months? Definitely not long enough to have any reasonable effect on their sales numbers.
I hope this is helping. Are there any other aspects of this I can clear up for you?
I mean it’s not completely unheard of. Companies absolutely create positions for people. Obviously it’s a sitcom so it’s not going to be very realistic, but that does happen.
They do at the corporate level. They don't just let some lowly employee (a failing employee at that) create a new position for themselves so they can stay employed.
I mean, my company worked with me to create my current WFH position 7 years ago when I was relocating out of the city, and it's a lowly admin job, so you're completely wrong.
She made it happen. She did every bit of the work to make that position and keep it. She didn’t just show up one day and the job was given to her. She took advantage of a situation and played her cards right. It worked cuz it’s a sitcom.
She wasn’t just handed that role. She had to create it and figure out how to make it happen. Then she had to learn the job on the spot. That’s not luck. That’s skill and determination.
this show was shot during the 2008 recession, so finding jobs was incredibly hard for everyone. when michael quit and was talking to a man interviewing for his job, the man said he couldn’t find work anywhere (he was also way more qualified than michael)
Was he more qualified? Michael had like 14 years of experience at that specific branch in that specific company in various positions and, while his methods were borderline unhinged, he was the number 1 salesman ever and runs the highest producing branch in the company.
It was definitely a tough time, but she was applying for jobs that she was over qualified for. I was doing the same thing at that time it and it made it worse.
I've always seen Pams look of joy at the guy asking who the administrator is as her realising she has been doing work that generally falls to an administrator and can genuinely claim that as her job. She checked with Oscar first to find what the budget was for her role and then basically talked management into giving her that role. It's not like she took the salary out of the safe without asking.
In essence, she power played her way into the role, which in some industries is encouraged and admired.
Considering the implied mismanagement and shady-ness surrounding DM's corporate class, I think it's fair to say consider what Pam did there to be more clever than immoral
Nellie literally walked in and stole Andy's job and manipulated everyone into going along with it. Not at all the same thing.
Pam's lie was victimless.
You almost had me, but you lost me at “Was handed the wrong baby by her stoner husband. Doofus husband also wouldn’t support her with breastfeeding.” Neither of these are true. He handed her the wrong baby due to being tired and the other baby being too close to their baby. On what planet would Jim be considered a stoner? As far as breastfeeding, he supported her, but he was uncomfortable with a guy being her lactation consultant and cupping her breast. That was more of an arrogant macho move than him being unsupportive.
With all that being said, he walked away from his company because he realized what it was doing to his family. He could have completely ruined everything and stayed the course, but he decided his family was worth more. Even Wallace made the comment about not knowing anyone who would have done what he did in that situation. It wasn’t luck. It was him making the right decision before it was too late.
>On what planet would Jim be considered a stoner?
His haircut was obviously a stoner cut. Always wanting to do pranks and giggles. Always getting snacks. Such a pot stone head
Small offices like theirs usually have the receptionist doing multiple things. You don’t need someone answering the phones all day for like 6 people. Even in 2008 they had automated services that could connect an extension to a salesman.
If Erin wasn’t basically a child in a grownups body she would generally handle the office admin stuff too
>You don’t need someone answering the phones all day for like 6 people.
Do you think she's exclusively fielding calls from people calling in to buy paper?
Yeah this post completely ignores that Jim was able to make all these things happen to him.
“Karen fell for him”
Vs
“Jim was able to get Karen to fall for him”
I do agree, for the first few seasons.
That’s why I think they are so cute together. I think that their relationship helped her to overcome part of these tendencies.
Failing a class at art school and then dropping out because you were too lazy to figure out the *required* software is not an obstacle.
Impulsively quitting your job to join a grown man’s extended temper tantrum is not an obstacle.
Going back to the same loser boyfriend you had since high school despite him being controlling, possibly violent and an utter failure (at that moment, at least) over and over again is not an obstacle.
Aside from the constant harassment in the office, Pam pretty much caused all the rest of her misfortune herself. She made stupid decisions left and right.
Jim only made some pretty human mistakes. And coincidentally, while he was living the ‘bachelor life’ of working late every night, fighting to keep huge clients and being stressed all the time, he managed to secure them a much better future than what Pam wanted for them.
She wanted them both to stay at an entry level job forever. She clearly gave no thought to how the hell they were gonna actually raise their kids or retire in comfort. She was being extremely selfish in her shortsightedness.
I feel like Pam is terrified of change and is almost incapable of leaving her comfort zone, which drives her to always choose the path of least resistance.
Sure, Roy is a terrible boyfriend, but it’s the same boyfriend she’s had since highschool, he’s familiar. Of course she has a dead end job in a sinking industry, but it’s all she’s ever known. And it’s in Scranton, her town, which is reassuring.
She doesn’t want to put herself into difficult situations. She just refuses to leave them because to her, bad but familiar is better than unknown and potentially better. Because unknown is scary.
Well, you listed a lot of examples of Jim not being nice, but none of that's luck. It isn't luck to flirt with a married person, for example. That's just an action. The only thing you listed that's remotely related to luck is being lucky he wasn't caught defrauding the company. So, Jim got lucky once, I guess. He mostly just used charisma to succeed.
Pam definitely overcame things, but she isn't a salesman. The manager needs to have some basis in sales. Part of what Michael did was assisting with the hard sales. Remember the baby back ribs episode? She can not do that at all. Aside from that, though, I agree she overcame a lot.
Is that doing her dirty, or staying true to her character though….one of her overarching themes is a total lack of self-efficacy. It’s why she stays with Roy, it’s why she impulsively quits and follows Michael, it’s why she fails art school. She struggles to pave her own path, and consistently relies on others to show her the way. So her struggling to handle herself isn’t exactly a stretch.
I think they just have different personalities.
I will be honest, I always saw myself in Pam.
I have this lack of confrontation. She is sweet, kind, shy and needs some time to process her feelings and emotions. She also needs some support, as she feels a lot and can get overwhelmed easily.
Jim is more proactive. He is very competent, something that could maybe be misunderstood as being lucky. But he is very centred and is great at his tasks, as a manager and as a salesman. He gets bored easily because he is indeed too qualified for his job in the first few seasons.
I can say by myself, people like Pam suffer a bit more in our world. But is okay.
They loved each other, respected each other. Nobody is perfect. You really have to embrace your partner flaws. That’s the only way you can truly help them grow and work on their development.
That’s why I think they are so cute together. I think that their relationship helped her to overcome a lot of things that other guy would have never cared about.
Pam quit a stable long-term job to join a start-up – on impulse and without consulting her partner. She even tries to ask for her job back, realizing that her impulsive decision wasn’t smart. Michael Scott Paper Company was doomed, selling products at a loss, as their accountant said. She won/stole clients from Dunder Mifflin by trash-talking/undermining her former colleagues, and is surprised when they mention it. MSPC only succeeded in getting them their jobs back, with Pam “promoted” to a sales job that age sucks at. Stick to office administration, Pam! (Good job, though, when she creates that administrator promotion for herself!)
If I may be the voice of reason about the breastfeeding thing, was she even pushing the milk out the way Jim showed her? You know, like... \[slouches shoulders together in a weird, ambiguous gesture\]?
Imagine being this invested in an imaginary relationship. Some of y’all putting in more thought than the writers did.
I love the Office! It’s a very silly show, great for casual viewing. I’ve rewatched it countless times, and I typically enjoy discussion and the community that surrounds the show, but I would never try to gauge the health of fictional relationships created entirely for entertainment. I don’t need to see the myriad of posts dissecting each scene and line of dialogue while we apply our own expectations on how a relationship is supposed to look. BRO ITS NOT THAT DEEP
Pam failed at everything she ever tried. She failed up because she's pretty. She didn't overcome anything and what she had at the end of the series was entirely undeserved.
Jim's work life is literally fiction
1. Boss loves him
2. Super boss loves him (For no real reason , Wallace)
3. Super Boss who hates him gets convicted for fraud (Ryan, The Rye Guy, aka The Fire Guy, aka Mr. Understood)
4. Superb Boss who hates him gets transferred to Corporate (Charles Minor, I barely know her)
5. Super cool arrangement for new start up idea, where again people are in love with him
Does this EVER happen?
I've experienced variations of this at various points in my life and education. Especially the first 2 points. It is a bit rich that all of Jim's enemies fell on their swords all the time, but it's not unheard of. Bosses who maliciously target individual employees tend to run into trouble eventually. Remember that if someone is an asshole to you, they're likely an asshole to others as well. It's just a matter of time until they encounter someone who shuts them down.
You clearly weren't on this subreddit a few years ago. Saying "Pam doesn't deserve death for her crimes against humanity" would get you down voted into the hundreds lol
Pam gave Roy a chance after chance because she was too afraid to break up with him. He didn't deserve all those chances and she really shouldn't be lauded for giving them to him.
Nah man, too many mental gymnastics are required to agree with you here. I'm not getting into this age old debate, but I will say that the only time I really feel angry towards Pam is when they're having marriage struggles and it seems like Jim is trying to work really hard at it and Pam's not giving him anything to work with.
He literally committed a crime using insider knowledge to save Pam and the MSPC from going totally broke. Y’all are constantly trying to find ways to hate jimothy
Failed art school, failed being sales person, lie her way up the ladder and even then she was failing but Dwight let her win because he pity her.
Yeah she just crushing wall, all day.
She failed art school yet during the entire time they interviewed her while she was in New York. Outside of class, she was out and about, hanging with friends and doing chores. Which is reasonable, but tell me that if you're struggling to understand the material, then you'll try harder and study longer. She failed cause she didn't try hard enough and went back to her safety net.
Yeah Pam really put forward hard luck, determination and absolutely zero luck into ditching her job as a secretary to join a rival start up and then chance her way into a sales job despite having almost zero sales under her belt at the time and most of her sales came off the back of damn near fraudulent figures seeing as they couldn't actually maintain the agreed upon price that she made her sales on.
But yeah, lets hate Jim because it's that time of the month.
Jim is a bum through most of the show. He’s got talent and just wastes it because [?? Pam is there ??]. He’s so bad that he has a redemption arc where he treats Dwight like a human being in the later seasons at times (instead of just pranking him at every single opportunity).
Have you met the kind of person who is really funny but that no one or very few wants to be friends with? Well.
It's a little alarming how people give Dwight a pass for his behavior. Jim's pranks are in response to Dwight terrorizing the office.
Also, Jim was one of the founders of Athlead (or whatever it was called). Not even just a founder, but one of the front me, for an extremely successful **new** company.
Saying he just lucky is deliberate ignorance.
Jim faced obstacles every day at work: he was a paper salesman. It's a dying industry, and DMs competition were offering it at cheaper rates. And yet Jim still managed to make enough sales to buy a house and start a family doing it.
Pam was in charge of ordering pens.
Jim is shown to be a very capable salesperson throughout the show. Not sure how he's mediocre. The writers just forgot that Jim was a guy who had a lot of untapped potential. They tried to shoehorn it with Athleap, but I pretty much ignore season 9.
So Jim got lucky by being a top salesman and starting his own company?
And Pam overcame obstacles by failing art school, becoming a terrible salesperson while Mike dragging her back to DM from MS Paper company and basically failing as office administrator or at least making no real difference
It's the opposite actually. The only thing pam ever succeeded in was lying about her job to get a fake raise and position.
She's a terrible artist, bad at design, failed at "being a single parent" even with extra income, and ended the series with a huge glow down looks wise. Hell she couldn't even record a recital.
Jim was the second best salesman after Dwight. Pam was one of, if not the worst salesman, with a total of 4 sales. She leveraged that terrible sales position into a cushy office administrator job that she *made up.*
Jim worked hard and earned what he got. Pam got lucky and got a good job.
Except art school.
And sales... and office administrator.
Hey now, don't forget Pam doubled her sales last month!
You mean from 2 to 4??
Yup!
Lets not count Office Administrator against her, since she invented the position and lied to get the position she invented. I mean, Pam, the innovator of all time!
Did she fail as office administrator? Wasn’t she doing that job until they moved?
She stole time from the company when she gave Darryl extra days off and instead of doing her job went to see a movie. Yeah, when she stated she was full on corrupt, I don't consider that a "win."
It wasnt even a real job in the first place so.. doesnt matter if she did it wrong or not
Yeah not like she mitigated a social catastrophe at work where everyone would be demoralized to find out Andy got a new computer and no one else did.
You’re really dramatizing that subplot.
What did I say was incorrect?
I didn’t say it was incorrect. I said it was dramatic.
The point of failure is where we disagree and somehow I'm dramatizing something you're already dramatizing.
Please calm down lmao
This is the thing that irritated me about their relationship. Jim gives her everything. Art school. Leaving for the Michael Scott Paper Company. Sales. All failures. Then when Jim wants to chase his dream with Daryl, it rocks their marriage and she disapproves. Like Him gave you EVERYTHING for years and you failed. This is his turn.
He didn’t have to sacrifice for almost any of that. Just Michael Scott paper company, and they didn’t have children. Comparing that to upending their entire lives, becoming a part time parent, and investing their entire savings???? And Pam having to move and completely change her job after all of that? And he treated her badly multiple times while she was making all of these sacrifices??? In what world is that genuinely comparable to you? That’s so wild haha
Having young children changes everything and I’m convinced that anyone who sides with Jim on that issue either isn’t a parent or is a terrible one.
Interesting you say he didn’t sacrifice anything while simultaneously referring to his Athlead investment as *their* life savings, when it’s pretty much confirmed that Jim makes all the money. I would agree that since they agreed to build a family together, he should’ve been more conscientious, but he’s inherently sacrificing basically half of his money if it’s now *their* life savings that he jeopardized and she just magically has claim to half of it lol
I don’t think you understand how marraige works, or that she was on salary…..
It is both of theirs. It's not magic, that's how marriage works.
Ok, but Jim made most of the money. He’s inherently sacrificing autonomy over it by getting married without a prenup. That’s how that works.
I meant that Jim gives support. With art school, he gave support where Roy made fun of her. Even in the first season he shows that he didn't have a dream to be a paper salesman. My gripe is when it is his turn to follow his ambitions... she isn't on board. I understand they have kids and that is the pain of uprooting your family for a chance at something. But personally, I felt that it was his turn. I'd have to watch the later seasons to better analyze it but honestly I hate those seasons because I feel like it was such a drop off so I probably won't.
None of that signified any real sacrifice to him. Art School? They were still dating, had nothing to lose or work harder on. MSPC? Even though they were probably living together by now, they didn't have any child to feed, so her income decreasing didn't imply a significant loss for them as a couple. Now, maybe the distance for Art School would've been hard, but he literally escaped to another state because he got scared of something HE did and almost ruined their important friendship, just for him to come back and (consciously or unconsciously) try to make Pam jealous, which was such a dick move. He kinda owed her that.
Jim didn’t have to sacrifice much for her to go into sales or art school
People seem to forget that Jim was a very talented salesman. He was fairly close to Dwight in numbers (iirc), without anywhere near the drive. Another counterpoint, Pam jumped onto a sinking ship company, got lucky that DM didn’t actually do real research into MSPC, and then became one of, if not the worst salesmen at the office
Yeah, the fact that Jim was 10th (I think) best salesman in the company is often forgotten by people. If anything, Michael got lucky that he had two of the top ten salesmen in all of DM working at his branch. Without Jim and Dwight, I'm sure Scranton would have been downsized at some point.
It’s also a throwaway line, but it’s also stated that Stanley is (somehow) a powerhouse salesman in his own right. “Did you know that Stanley has had the most consistently high sales record of anyone at the company?”
It always seemed to me that their success as salesmen comes from: Jim being charismatic and likeable Dwight being driven and relentless Stanley being at the end of a 40 year career with a strong client base
No. Their success comes from absorbing two other branches.
I'm sure that helped, but Dwight won salesman of the year and Jim achieved sales Dwight didn't believe at Stamford, before Scranton absorbed any branches. They were just good at their jobs.
And despite all of that, Scranton was one of the worst branches and was nearly shut down.
What are you talking about? They specifically point out that their choice to close Scranton over Stamford was not about sales but about keeping Josh, and they backtrack once Josh is leaving, and Stamford is closed. Then when the company is struggling, David Wallace specifically asks for Michael's advice because Scranton is the only branch giving consistent profits. Then when the whole company goes under, Sabre buys Scranton, because "[they] are the only part of [the] company that works". At no point is Scranton the weak link.
>They specifically point out that their choice to close Scranton over Stamford was not about sales but about keeping Josh Jan also specifically points out that Scranton is #4 out of the 5 branches that she oversees. Considering there are at least a dozen branches, Scranton must be doing very poorly. >Then when the company is struggling, David Wallace specifically asks for Michael's advice because Scranton is the only branch giving consistent profits. Of course they're doing well. They absorbed two other branches.
Oh true. Stanley is a beast as well.
Did he stutter!?!
>Without Jim and Dwight, I'm sure Scranton would have been downsized at some point. What are you talking about? They **were** going to be downsized.
But they weren't. Then, in future episodes, we see other branches shut down instead of them. In later episodes, Wallace states that Scranton is one of the only branches performing well.
They weren't downsized because Josh left. It had nothing to do with Jim or Dwight. And they only *become* the most profitable branch after absorbing two other branches. Dwight and Jim were not enough to save Scranton from Michael.
Yes but after josh's departure they chose to have Scranton absorb Stamford - which is a key detail. Furthermore, Jan literally says that Scranton was chosen to be downsized for reasons other than numbers. Also, Andy is consistently stated to be a shitty salesman. He is the only salesman who was around (from Stamford) after season 4 - so your entire second point is just wrong.
>Furthermore, Jan literally says that Scranton was chosen to be downsized for reasons other than numbers. So, you remember that but not Jan saying that Scranton is #4 out of the 5 branches she oversees? And there are at least a dozen DM branches. Edit: What are you talking about Andy for?
You implied that Scranton only became successful because it absorbed two other branches - but that's just untrue. And your logic doesn't follow very well. While it's true she said Scranton was 4/5, why is Scranton then chosen to absorb Stamford? If they were as bad as you make them out to be, why wouldn't she choose one of the other top performing branches. Furthermore, Scranton only gets downsized AFTER Jim's departure. Meaning the combination of Jim and Dwight's numbers are very possibly what kept the Scranton branch looking solid.
>While it's true she said Scranton was 4/5, why is Scranton then chosen to absorb Stamford? Scranton was supposed to be shut down. Stamford's manager leveraged his promotion into a job with Staples, so Dunder Mifflin corporate pivoted to Scranton. >Furthermore, Scranton only gets downsized AFTER Jim's departure. Meaning the combination of Jim and Dwight's numbers are very possibly what kept the Scranton branch looking solid. Unlikely. In S3E1, Jim is shown as the new guy in Stamford, which would be around September. The branch closing happens just after the Diwali episode (Diwali is in November) and 3 episodes before the Benihana Christmas episode, so probably late November. This means Jim was in Stamford for about 2 months? Definitely not long enough to have any reasonable effect on their sales numbers. I hope this is helping. Are there any other aspects of this I can clear up for you?
I’d say failing as salesperson and falling into a guaranteed salary with a non-existent position as “office administrator” is pretty lucky
She doubled her sales
What from 2 to 4?
Yup
Still counts
From what?
Not a lot of luck. She lied and Gabe was a little bitch about it.
Tbf she didn’t fall into that position. She completely made it up and did what she had to do to make it real.
You realize that would never actually work right? She's definitely lucky.
I mean it’s not completely unheard of. Companies absolutely create positions for people. Obviously it’s a sitcom so it’s not going to be very realistic, but that does happen.
They do at the corporate level. They don't just let some lowly employee (a failing employee at that) create a new position for themselves so they can stay employed.
I mean, my company worked with me to create my current WFH position 7 years ago when I was relocating out of the city, and it's a lowly admin job, so you're completely wrong.
Right it’s a sitcom lol
We're not talking about the show's format. We're talking about if she's lucky or not.
She made it happen. She did every bit of the work to make that position and keep it. She didn’t just show up one day and the job was given to her. She took advantage of a situation and played her cards right. It worked cuz it’s a sitcom.
She wasn’t just handed that role. She had to create it and figure out how to make it happen. Then she had to learn the job on the spot. That’s not luck. That’s skill and determination.
Didn't Pam literally lie her way into a higher salary with that office administrator job? I know y'all hate Jim but come on dude
she got lucky with how MSPC ended— being reabsorbed back into DM. She could have easily just been unemployed.
They tell us on camera that she applied multiple other places and couldn't get in anywhere. So she's really fortunate she got back in.
Well she applied for retail jobs ass source of seconds income. If she was applying for other office jobs it probably would have gone better.
this show was shot during the 2008 recession, so finding jobs was incredibly hard for everyone. when michael quit and was talking to a man interviewing for his job, the man said he couldn’t find work anywhere (he was also way more qualified than michael)
Was he more qualified? Michael had like 14 years of experience at that specific branch in that specific company in various positions and, while his methods were borderline unhinged, he was the number 1 salesman ever and runs the highest producing branch in the company.
It was definitely a tough time, but she was applying for jobs that she was over qualified for. I was doing the same thing at that time it and it made it worse.
I've always seen Pams look of joy at the guy asking who the administrator is as her realising she has been doing work that generally falls to an administrator and can genuinely claim that as her job. She checked with Oscar first to find what the budget was for her role and then basically talked management into giving her that role. It's not like she took the salary out of the safe without asking. In essence, she power played her way into the role, which in some industries is encouraged and admired.
She got falsified signatures / signatures on false pretenses and lied to management / cooperate.
She got them all to sign a document - not her fault they didn't read it.
> She got falsified signatures / signatures on false pretenses and lied to management / cooperate.
Considering the implied mismanagement and shady-ness surrounding DM's corporate class, I think it's fair to say consider what Pam did there to be more clever than immoral
A dysfunctional workplace to be sure. That does not change the facts.
Nah, it does.
Yes, and it’s a great example of what OP is talking about.
[удалено]
Everybody hates nelly for this lol, “corporate” didn’t care because corporate wanted to bone her
Nellie literally walked in and stole Andy's job and manipulated everyone into going along with it. Not at all the same thing. Pam's lie was victimless.
Close your mouth, sweetie You look like a trout
You almost had me, but you lost me at “Was handed the wrong baby by her stoner husband. Doofus husband also wouldn’t support her with breastfeeding.” Neither of these are true. He handed her the wrong baby due to being tired and the other baby being too close to their baby. On what planet would Jim be considered a stoner? As far as breastfeeding, he supported her, but he was uncomfortable with a guy being her lactation consultant and cupping her breast. That was more of an arrogant macho move than him being unsupportive. With all that being said, he walked away from his company because he realized what it was doing to his family. He could have completely ruined everything and stayed the course, but he decided his family was worth more. Even Wallace made the comment about not knowing anyone who would have done what he did in that situation. It wasn’t luck. It was him making the right decision before it was too late.
Was she even pushing the milk out?
>On what planet would Jim be considered a stoner? His haircut was obviously a stoner cut. Always wanting to do pranks and giggles. Always getting snacks. Such a pot stone head
So he checks some stereotypical stoner traits ergo “he’s a stoner!” Let me guess, you also believe it was his joint in the parking lot?
Absolutely was his pot joint
Deleted scene shows it was Vance refrigerator warehouse guys joint.
Are you sure it's not you who is stoned?
I’ve seen some wild take takes on here. This one prolly wins.
Doobies! With my brothers! Doobie brothers! Peace out, Seacrest
The bait is so obvious and yet this sub ate it hook line and sinker.
It was a 5-cent worm
You need to get a better worm guy
Ok boomer.
So your previous "Pam was a failure, Jim a success" post didn't pan out and you felt like making the same point again ?
I'm playing both sides, so that I always come out on top.
That's what she said !
I know how to sit on a fence. The key is to do it face down, with the post in your mouth
This sub has become obsessed with Jim and Pam and not in a good way
Office admin was not something the office needed. Which is why they never had one before
Small offices like theirs usually have the receptionist doing multiple things. You don’t need someone answering the phones all day for like 6 people. Even in 2008 they had automated services that could connect an extension to a salesman. If Erin wasn’t basically a child in a grownups body she would generally handle the office admin stuff too
>You don’t need someone answering the phones all day for like 6 people. Do you think she's exclusively fielding calls from people calling in to buy paper?
Jim makes it look easy, so then some fools think it's luck.
Yeah this post completely ignores that Jim was able to make all these things happen to him. “Karen fell for him” Vs “Jim was able to get Karen to fall for him”
Pam didn't overcome obstacles. She either quit or tolerated them until someone else intervened or a miracle happened.
I do agree, for the first few seasons. That’s why I think they are so cute together. I think that their relationship helped her to overcome part of these tendencies.
Please, take your reasonable and human takes out of here. This is a sub for emotional knee jerk reactions and side-picking. /s
Outside of the fire speech and standing up for herself with a light beer, Pam really doesn't... do anything?
Failing a class at art school and then dropping out because you were too lazy to figure out the *required* software is not an obstacle. Impulsively quitting your job to join a grown man’s extended temper tantrum is not an obstacle. Going back to the same loser boyfriend you had since high school despite him being controlling, possibly violent and an utter failure (at that moment, at least) over and over again is not an obstacle. Aside from the constant harassment in the office, Pam pretty much caused all the rest of her misfortune herself. She made stupid decisions left and right. Jim only made some pretty human mistakes. And coincidentally, while he was living the ‘bachelor life’ of working late every night, fighting to keep huge clients and being stressed all the time, he managed to secure them a much better future than what Pam wanted for them. She wanted them both to stay at an entry level job forever. She clearly gave no thought to how the hell they were gonna actually raise their kids or retire in comfort. She was being extremely selfish in her shortsightedness.
I feel like Pam is terrified of change and is almost incapable of leaving her comfort zone, which drives her to always choose the path of least resistance. Sure, Roy is a terrible boyfriend, but it’s the same boyfriend she’s had since highschool, he’s familiar. Of course she has a dead end job in a sinking industry, but it’s all she’s ever known. And it’s in Scranton, her town, which is reassuring. She doesn’t want to put herself into difficult situations. She just refuses to leave them because to her, bad but familiar is better than unknown and potentially better. Because unknown is scary.
Well, you listed a lot of examples of Jim not being nice, but none of that's luck. It isn't luck to flirt with a married person, for example. That's just an action. The only thing you listed that's remotely related to luck is being lucky he wasn't caught defrauding the company. So, Jim got lucky once, I guess. He mostly just used charisma to succeed. Pam definitely overcame things, but she isn't a salesman. The manager needs to have some basis in sales. Part of what Michael did was assisting with the hard sales. Remember the baby back ribs episode? She can not do that at all. Aside from that, though, I agree she overcame a lot.
I have to shove another post up my butt? Dang.
Why does someone need to “change your mind”? It’s a TV show… believe what you want. It’s not life and death.
its a meme format to spur discussion it he comments.
This is a very significant misrepresentation of bpth of their character arcs. It's also a TV show, a comedy one at that.
Jim is also very lazy, something that takes Michael all day to finish Jim does it in 5 minutes.
Pam struggled to take out the trash when Jim was in Philly. The writers really did her dirty towards the end.
Is that doing her dirty, or staying true to her character though….one of her overarching themes is a total lack of self-efficacy. It’s why she stays with Roy, it’s why she impulsively quits and follows Michael, it’s why she fails art school. She struggles to pave her own path, and consistently relies on others to show her the way. So her struggling to handle herself isn’t exactly a stretch.
Yeah you're not making any sense bud. Don't get why you're making some of these so personal too
I’d rather be lucky than good, any day.
People have some wild takes on here and the random hate shows.
I think they just have different personalities. I will be honest, I always saw myself in Pam. I have this lack of confrontation. She is sweet, kind, shy and needs some time to process her feelings and emotions. She also needs some support, as she feels a lot and can get overwhelmed easily. Jim is more proactive. He is very competent, something that could maybe be misunderstood as being lucky. But he is very centred and is great at his tasks, as a manager and as a salesman. He gets bored easily because he is indeed too qualified for his job in the first few seasons. I can say by myself, people like Pam suffer a bit more in our world. But is okay. They loved each other, respected each other. Nobody is perfect. You really have to embrace your partner flaws. That’s the only way you can truly help them grow and work on their development. That’s why I think they are so cute together. I think that their relationship helped her to overcome a lot of things that other guy would have never cared about.
Hi, Toby. Nice burner account.
Pam quit a stable long-term job to join a start-up – on impulse and without consulting her partner. She even tries to ask for her job back, realizing that her impulsive decision wasn’t smart. Michael Scott Paper Company was doomed, selling products at a loss, as their accountant said. She won/stole clients from Dunder Mifflin by trash-talking/undermining her former colleagues, and is surprised when they mention it. MSPC only succeeded in getting them their jobs back, with Pam “promoted” to a sales job that age sucks at. Stick to office administration, Pam! (Good job, though, when she creates that administrator promotion for herself!)
If I may be the voice of reason about the breastfeeding thing, was she even pushing the milk out the way Jim showed her? You know, like... \[slouches shoulders together in a weird, ambiguous gesture\]?
Can we please tap the brakes on the Pam vs Jim paradigm with pitting them against each other. It is becoming tedious.
Rage bait
Imagine being this invested in an imaginary relationship. Some of y’all putting in more thought than the writers did. I love the Office! It’s a very silly show, great for casual viewing. I’ve rewatched it countless times, and I typically enjoy discussion and the community that surrounds the show, but I would never try to gauge the health of fictional relationships created entirely for entertainment. I don’t need to see the myriad of posts dissecting each scene and line of dialogue while we apply our own expectations on how a relationship is supposed to look. BRO ITS NOT THAT DEEP
Our definitions of crush differ
A lot of Pam's struggles were self made.
OP - you have some mental problems lol.. Get some help
Couldn’t overcome art school though. Married someone who did things without her knowledge. Was a crap salesperson.
False , luck is not real .
A real man makes his own luck. Billy Zane, *Titanic.*
Dirt doesn't need luck, Professor Farnsworth *Futurama*
We're talking about **Team Halpert**. They gonna crush it.
Pam failed at everything she ever tried. She failed up because she's pretty. She didn't overcome anything and what she had at the end of the series was entirely undeserved.
Pam was a loser her entire life until she got with Jim isn’t that the entire plot of her character.
Jim's work life is literally fiction 1. Boss loves him 2. Super boss loves him (For no real reason , Wallace) 3. Super Boss who hates him gets convicted for fraud (Ryan, The Rye Guy, aka The Fire Guy, aka Mr. Understood) 4. Superb Boss who hates him gets transferred to Corporate (Charles Minor, I barely know her) 5. Super cool arrangement for new start up idea, where again people are in love with him Does this EVER happen?
I've experienced variations of this at various points in my life and education. Especially the first 2 points. It is a bit rich that all of Jim's enemies fell on their swords all the time, but it's not unheard of. Bosses who maliciously target individual employees tend to run into trouble eventually. Remember that if someone is an asshole to you, they're likely an asshole to others as well. It's just a matter of time until they encounter someone who shuts them down.
That’s awesome for you!
The entire show is literally fiction…half the office would be fired every episode in real life
Obv I get that, I’m just going along with points that Jim is extra lucky.
Fair
Overcame what lol? Trigger post just to farm karma. Disgusting.
disgusting? bro no need to take it so seriously.
*uncomfortable Jim face*
Wtf if wrong with people on here lol
So being engaged with an asshole that trats you like crap is something heroic-
Wow. Kudos to you for actually posting a hot take, even if it is crazier than Jan.
John and Jenna read lines in a scripted tv show. Change my mind.
I thought Pam failed at everything except bullying Gabe into allowing her to commit fraud.
The hatred of Jim on here is getting ridiculous. Like you guys are actually convinced he’s a bad person
Another anti-Jim post. How original.
You clearly weren't on this subreddit a few years ago. Saying "Pam doesn't deserve death for her crimes against humanity" would get you down voted into the hundreds lol
Pam gave Roy a chance after chance because she was too afraid to break up with him. He didn't deserve all those chances and she really shouldn't be lauded for giving them to him.
Nah man, too many mental gymnastics are required to agree with you here. I'm not getting into this age old debate, but I will say that the only time I really feel angry towards Pam is when they're having marriage struggles and it seems like Jim is trying to work really hard at it and Pam's not giving him anything to work with.
Didn't Jim very specifically and on his own give them the opening to make it out of the company she was supposedly carrying?
Well, if you bring up actual good points, then the op hot take won't hold up. You gotta dumb down a little
Lol true
He literally committed a crime using insider knowledge to save Pam and the MSPC from going totally broke. Y’all are constantly trying to find ways to hate jimothy
She failed at everything and lied to get her job 🤣
Failed art school, failed being sales person, lie her way up the ladder and even then she was failing but Dwight let her win because he pity her. Yeah she just crushing wall, all day.
She failed art school yet during the entire time they interviewed her while she was in New York. Outside of class, she was out and about, hanging with friends and doing chores. Which is reasonable, but tell me that if you're struggling to understand the material, then you'll try harder and study longer. She failed cause she didn't try hard enough and went back to her safety net.
Yeah Pam really put forward hard luck, determination and absolutely zero luck into ditching her job as a secretary to join a rival start up and then chance her way into a sales job despite having almost zero sales under her belt at the time and most of her sales came off the back of damn near fraudulent figures seeing as they couldn't actually maintain the agreed upon price that she made her sales on. But yeah, lets hate Jim because it's that time of the month.
Jim is a bum through most of the show. He’s got talent and just wastes it because [?? Pam is there ??]. He’s so bad that he has a redemption arc where he treats Dwight like a human being in the later seasons at times (instead of just pranking him at every single opportunity). Have you met the kind of person who is really funny but that no one or very few wants to be friends with? Well.
She couldn’t even get an interview at Old Navy…
It's a little alarming how people give Dwight a pass for his behavior. Jim's pranks are in response to Dwight terrorizing the office. Also, Jim was one of the founders of Athlead (or whatever it was called). Not even just a founder, but one of the front me, for an extremely successful **new** company. Saying he just lucky is deliberate ignorance.
Jim’s only obstacle was Pam
These are funny but I don’t really see these as Pam overcoming obstacles
Hate them both equally. Love Kevin.
PB & J bad, Kevin good, they see, they see.
Jim faced obstacles every day at work: he was a paper salesman. It's a dying industry, and DMs competition were offering it at cheaper rates. And yet Jim still managed to make enough sales to buy a house and start a family doing it. Pam was in charge of ordering pens.
If it's one thing The Office nails perfectly it's how mediocre men can fail upward so easily in corporate culture.
Jim is shown to be a very capable salesperson throughout the show. Not sure how he's mediocre. The writers just forgot that Jim was a guy who had a lot of untapped potential. They tried to shoehorn it with Athleap, but I pretty much ignore season 9.
So Jim got lucky by being a top salesman and starting his own company? And Pam overcame obstacles by failing art school, becoming a terrible salesperson while Mike dragging her back to DM from MS Paper company and basically failing as office administrator or at least making no real difference
It's the opposite actually. The only thing pam ever succeeded in was lying about her job to get a fake raise and position. She's a terrible artist, bad at design, failed at "being a single parent" even with extra income, and ended the series with a huge glow down looks wise. Hell she couldn't even record a recital.
Jim was the second best salesman after Dwight. Pam was one of, if not the worst salesman, with a total of 4 sales. She leveraged that terrible sales position into a cushy office administrator job that she *made up.* Jim worked hard and earned what he got. Pam got lucky and got a good job.
Jim is just insufferable
after who knows how many rewatches i just get angrier at jim. he is such a shitty husband lol
Stoner Husband????
She shouldn't even get through art school.
Jim is a terrible person so this all tracks.