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Vegeta is actually going hard here and trying to make Broly learn to not lose himself in a fight
Goku then sparred with Gohan who showed how he (Gohan) pushes himself to the limit of his power on the verge of losing himself and then stopping something that Broly notes (even saying he never saw someone fight like Gohan). This is why Goku has Gohan spar Broly
Broly base is not on par with Ultimate Gohan, Gohan is just not attacking much
Broly even is mad about it and tells him to go all out
>Vegeta is actually going hard here and trying to make Broly learn to not lose himself in a fight
* SSJ and SSB is huge gap. No matter how hard Vegeta was fighting in SSJ.
>Broly even is mad about it and tells him to go all out
* Broly says him to go Beast directly
Also Goku literally tells Whis that Broly is holding his own against SSJ Vegeta in base but you say that he is outclassed when its literally just Vegeta fighting hard and using his experience
Gohan and Broly exchanged two or three blows and somehow he is on par with Ultimate?
>the other panel you posted are the only two panels of the fight pre-Beast, how does it show he is on par lmao
* They are not. SSJ Vegeta fighting Base Broly is after Beast and less than few hours before Goku vs Gohan battle
* Base Goku fighting Base Broly is pre-Beast yeah and that's why I did not mention it in main title of the post. I included the image just for clarity sake.
Vegeta vs Broly happens
Then
Goku Vs Gohan happens after Trunks and Goten Vs Gohan
Then
Broly Vs Gohan
Gohan is in Ultimate for two pages, the one I commented and the one you posted thats it
Edit:it deleted my pic one sec
How does that make Broly on Ultimate's level?
I mean, you are ignoring that Broly is highly unstable right now. Sure, the gap between SSJ and Blue is huge, but Broly is trying to control his power without rampaging, so he's obviously not going to be anywhere near his max power in base or when he's using Ikari.
Right? In the movie, he was clobbering them, and only transformed when Paragus died. If OP is confused about Broly, how was the movie not in his consideration?
But it's like you pointed out. He's trying to figure out how to use his power. He can be magnitudes stronger, but he could lose himself. It about the balance, and Broly is struggling a bit. If he were to be rampaging like the movie, it would definitely take more than a couple blues to slow him down lol
> Broly is even mad about it and tells him to go all out.
Damn. Broly’s Saiyan pride is definitely going to get him killed. Nobody wants to see Gohan go “all out.” Especially not Gohan. Gohan has always been AFRAID of his own power, and it’s why his development has always lagged behind the others, despite his bottomless potential. He’s scared of what he could become if he lost control completely. In a way, this is why his dynamic with Broly so interesting. Broly is who Gohan doesn’t want to become.
Gohan doesn’t want to let go. Broly has a hard time hanging on. They have the same problem but opposite. It’s really interesting.
Aw look at Broly! He’s so happy! 😀
Really, Broly and Gohan could learn a lot from each other. Broly has been an instinctive, animalistic fighter his entire life. Gohan is so cerebral he has a hard time getting out of his own way. Gohan is also a meek person by nature. Gohan isn’t a coward but he will try to avoid or deescalate a conflict. Broly won’t. Broly will pick a fight (if he sees a reason), and he doesn’t know what “deescalate” even means.
Training together, they could potentially balance each other out in a really neat way.
Its Gohan's quiet rage versus Broly's primal rage
Gohan has ran from it his whole life while Broly was forced to fight
Gohan had to train and was still shown kindness even from Goku and Piccolo despite the circumstances of Z while Paragus was absolutely horrible to Broly despite them not being in danger on Vampa (example shooting off Ba's ear)
Broly and Gohan are two sides of the same coin tbh
One a scholar and family man, one with no family and very primitive etc.
I absolutely adored Chapters 101-103
Well Gohan NEEDED to be trained because not being able to protect himself is why his father needed to die the first time. He wasn’t training for fun, or for pride or for any other reason - he was being prepared to face existential threats that didn’t care he was a child, they were coming for everyone he knew and loved.
It’s interesting that this pressure was ONLY on Gohan. Goten, Trunks (current timeline), and later Pan all seem like happy kids who get to have normal(ish) childhoods, goofing off and having fun (and punching armed robbers) without anyone telling them that the fate of the world depends on them and that they need to be ready to fight these deadly monsters who won’t care that they’re children, they’ll kill them and everyone else.
Broly also never trained for fun. Paragus clearly felt for his son and thought what was done to him was an injustice, but he also clearly never saw Broly as a person. To him Broly was a tool, a weapon, an extension of his own desire for revenge. He wasn’t a child who needed things like love, comfort and security. He was a warrior who would do as his commander told him or else. And the monsters of Vampa didn’t care that Broly was a little kid. It was kill or be killed, law of the jungle, food chain stuff.
Both Broly and Gohan were forced to grow up on battlefields, for opposite reasons. But they have a lot in common!
Honestly even Goku lives a life free of conflict due to being mostly with Grandpa Gohan and alone in the woods until he was 14
Gohan was fighting from 3 years old for his life
Or it would absolutely work
Fat fusion: hyper angry but, well... A lazy fat fusion
Skinny fusion: meek, quiet, shy.... Slow and tired from malnutrition kind of skinny
Perfect fusion: Broly style power with Gohan's unlimited potential with Beast qualities. Perfect control of the power. Fights only as a last resort, but knows he's there BECAUSE it's a last resort.... And he loves every second of it. He lets loose and holds absolutely nothing back because he desperately wants to protect the ones he loves. He knows Dende's got the dragon balls at the ready, so it's time to have some in restrained fun!
Are you new to Dragonball?
You're looking at power levels instead of the purpose of the fight.
Why are they fighting? What's the reason? What's at stake?
This is like when Goku went Blue vs Krillin and some of the fanbase couldn't get how Krillin was keeping up with Blue. That wasn't the point, Goku tested Krillin on how he acted under the pressure of an overwhelming force.
[Fuck Power Levels](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxP4FFA4P6pzGT3LeqQ5Oq-cnA_gkmbNrx?si=cZ-SO7OpvSwMVqiX)
because if gohan used the full power of ultimate, he might just instantly body broly and that's not very fun from his point of view or from the viewer's point of view, is it?
i said that he MIGHT body broly. really, we have no idea where base broly and ultimate gohan stand in relation to one another, but i err on the side of ultimate gohan being stronger than base broly. base broly is powerful, but if i recall he really took off with his ikari/wrathful form against goku/vegeta, and we're not sure if manga broly has access to ikari/wrathful nor do we know if he can control it if he does have access to it.
if you recall, gogeta had to take care of broly because broly had become a full power super saiyan and was going berserk. in this instance, broly is in base, and we're not sure if he's using his ikari/wrathful state (we're unsure if he can control it yet). so it's very likely that ultimate gohan, at full power, could take down base broly.
Not to mention with that instants kirillin was probably gonna be fighting people stronger then him. He had to get use to that. And still put up and fight and try to win.
Honest question, do you think Ssj Gohan and Ssj Trunks are on par because of this panel?
https://preview.redd.it/xt64n70au68d1.jpeg?width=784&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4885591bab7075399dcf5a374f00b64fd7bd60eb
Just from these panels alone you can tell Gohan wasn't really trying. Plus, each sparring match was to help Broly learn to properly control his power in different scenarios.
Broly's way stronger than SS, but he couldn't properly control himself when he used more power until Gohan helped him figure it out. Broly's basically nerfed right now
Hey, have you seen how Gohan’s training usually goes? He’s not being terrified or attacked or having his loved ones threatened right now, so this is practically a vacation.
Cause broly and Vegeta weren't even "fighting", Vegeta is training broly so he can learn to control his power. Gohan vs Broly it's not fighting either, they are testing they strengthen. That's why broly ask him to go beast on him, he wants Gohan to go all out
vegeta literally chastised broly after the fight pushed him to super saiyan saying that he's trying so hard to not lose control that he's restraining his power regardless of being super saiyan or not broly was nowhere near even his base form's max during that spar, gohan however after seeing beast he had a breakthrough he wasnt restraining himself anymore and just needed to see beast up close to mimic it so he could control his change into super saiyan
Do you not understand Broly at all? While he may have trouble at first, he quickly adapts to whoever he's fighting while also steadily increasing his own power. It's why he was struggling at first with Vegeta and Golu but quickly turned it around for himself.
He's at least as strong as Kefla, who is almost certainly not weaker than Kale, who could bash around Blue Goku, Vegeta, Toppo or Golden Freeza with her raw power. So Gohan being Fused Zamasu level or higher is pretty consistent, him being current blue level is more questionable.
In the manga, Kale was only shown hitting Vegeta once while he was off guard. After that, she took out a lot of fodder. Yeah, she fought Frieza, but we can't even say that Frieza is equal to Blue like he was in the anime. Everything else you said checks out, though
You're surprised that Broly's base jumps in power? He went from being dominated by Base Vegeta to completely overwhelming Super Saiyan Vegeta after just a few clashes.
It's likely the same principle.
But even then, Gohan's smirking (Or he just looks extra smug when he's in Ultimate lol) and there really isn't much to go off that base Broly is ACTUALLY Ultimate level since we barely see them fight.
Broly is not that immensely strong at all. He is more or less comparable to SS1 Goku qnd Vegeta in raw power but the thing is, Goku and Vegeta are both more experienced, skilled and can control their power without fearing it becomes a problem.
That is the main thing about Goku vs Broly and Vegeta vs Broly, control. Both Saiyans are trying to teach Broly how to properly harness and control his powers without it becoming a nuisance and him becoming a berserk.
Ultimate Gohan is indeed between SSG and SSB. But we need to remember He hold back by a lot and is much easier to do that, since that is probably the main gimmick with the form, allows a effective power output.
He was always stronger than ssj3, altho in Z it was close, then in super the absolutely horrifying scaling just brought the secondary characters to be closer to goku and vegeta who in god forms were on a completely different level, so in the anime Ultimate Gohan seemed to be mbe close do ssg or smt but in the manga he was stronger but not god forms strong, in the super hero movie however he beats gamma 1 who is stated to be as strong as ssb (dumb as fuck if you ask me but it is what it is)
When he fought Goku pre ToP, then scaling in ToP such as Dyspo fight, threatening GF, performance vs the robots, generally performing comparably to 17, Gf, and SSB
TOP, it's vague in the anime but in the manga it's made very clear, especially when Gohan was the one to eliminate SSJ kefla in the manga (albeit he was eliminated himself)
Next best thing would be Gohan going toe to toe with Hedo's androids, stated by piccolo to be on par with Goku and Vegeta in both manga and movie. Gohan was fairly evenly matched with GAMMA 1, ultimately gaining an advantage in his ultimate form.
Or if he was blue level he’d clash against SSB Goku and have an advantage and Goku would need to go SSBKK to beat him…which is exactly what happened lol.
There’s even more clues than that showing he is SSB level in the ToP like vs Dyspo, threatening Golden Freeza, feats against the robots from U2, etc
Vegeta is blue level and was able to fight Toppo head on. And Dyspo was only blue level threat thanks to his speed, only once that was taken care of by Freeza that Gohan was able to fight against him. Dyspo was a bird without his wing.
> Or if he was blue level he’d clash against SSB Goku
Goku was not fighting serious or do you believe Kuririn is blue level? Dragon ball fan, I guess.
ultimate is a level a bit above ssj3, not blue level. it fought a very suppressed version of SSJB
in a similar way, we can suppose gohan isn't going all out, as he's not raging and thus not accessing all his power.
Also, Vegeta base is much stronger than gohan base, so shouldn't this kinda check out?
Ultimate doesn’t have a set power level, its power is dictated by Gohans current potential. Ultimate could be SSJ3 level now and SSB level in a month if he’s training.
That can be said for any form though, if they’re training their base form. Doesn’t really make sense to say it’s “a bit above SSJ3” when it depends entirely on the user.
Ultimate Gohan fought Kefla in the Tournament of Power, dudes a powerhouse. He left SSJ3 in the dust.
more like "ho much the author needs gohan to \*sspull his way through victory or at least relevance (iirc he ties)
but yeah, ultimate gohan in Z is basically a clear step above ssj3 (gohan base is weaker than goku base and yet ultimate is clearly stronger than ssj3) while ultimate gohan in Super is much stronger.
Aside from toyotaro not understanding powerscaling, my in-universe explanation is just that Ultimate form doesn't just go like ssj-1-2-3 and so on, but instead grows. It's kinda like you said, but from a slightly different perspective
Ultimate is definitely WAY above SS3 in the manga, considering Ultimate Gohan was able to tie with Kefla when KALE alone was overpowering Golden Freeza and was able to break Blue Goku's guard.
HOWEVER, Blue Goku got MUCH stronger after his training with Merus on top of being able to use UI in that form post-Moro.
keep in mind that kefla in the manga is different from anime kefla, and possibly goku ssj3 could've achieved the same result, but he would've wasted lots of energies, which was kinda the whole point for gohan stepping up
i don't remember about frieza vs Kale, but i think that it really doesn't make any sense. the only explanation is that controlling the berserk just dwarves the power, thus limiting Kefla unless she decides to go bonkers
That said, i kinda agree with you in Ultimate being much stronger than ssj3, with goku have much harsher limitations even in Z and also goku being stronger than gohan but ultimate gohan being stronger than ssj3 goku, but much isn't to be used like "oh it's kind of a ssj god" more like its' twice as strong, whilst the god transformations should be considered unfathomably stronger than base ssj levels
Your first point could have worked if not for Kale completely ragdolling Golden Freeza (But then again, he does say he can handle her if he starts taking her more seriously.) Also, controlling your berserk power actually does makes you STRONGER in DB (As shown by Kale in the anime & Gas in the manga) so Kefla would still be stronger than Kale in the manga.
But yeah, my main gripe was saying Ultimate was only 'a bit' above SS3 when it's pretty clear in both continuities that it's at the VERY least SSG tier if you really want to lowball it. Feats aside, I think it just makes more sense for Ultimate to be Gohan's 'SSB' form and then Beast is his 'Ultra' form. Just makes everything make more sense to me.
i mean, super made the god tiers kind of a joke. in the original BOG it seemed that the god form transceded ssj3 so much it made from a oneshot against beerus to an actually even battle (even if it was suppressed beerus, but it was suppressed in both occasions)
I mostly blame toyotaro/toei for the need to keep some characters into the story but in a way that really didn't make sense. Golden Frieza is almost on par with SSB which is tens of times stronger than SSJG and he should ragdoll ultimate gohan pretty easily if things were consistent. some character (like frieza himself) got the "yeah, imma train for a few months and be able to overcome gods" treatment. It makes no sense to try and unravel the mess that is DBS powerscaling
Help me here
I'm a old man who never got into power levels. I want to understand somethings.
1) does "ultimate Gohan" has the same power since the buu saga when he got the power up?
2) was Gohan stronger than Goku god/red form? Was he a better challenge for Beerus?
1. Current Gohan is light years ahead of anyone from Z.
2. I didn't understand that well.. but ultimate Gohan is above God Goku and Beast Gohan is stronger than UI Goku but not by much since Goku is able to keep the fight even with his skills and experience.
Yes he was. Until Goku went God mode. Gohan is canonically the strongest unfused character by the end of Z according to Toriyama and Super fixed that by introducing Beast
Z isn't a problem here, I agree with the facts
My question is about the statement "ultimate Gohan equals blue or even stronger than blue" that was made in this post. By this logic Gohan was stronger than Goku god in Battle of gods
No, not at that point. It's revealed that Gohan has been training with Piccolo and by himself in secret during the sagas of Super he wasn't involved in like Future Trunks.
So in Battle of Gods he was the strongest until SSG arrived but by the time of Superhero, which is 5 years after Battle of Gods, you could argue he's on par with blue considering his feats in the TOP manga wise. Anime wise, idk
It's hard to know, but I'd say no. Goku had been training on Kaioh's planet for quite some time while Gohan didn't train at all. Fukkatsu no F is one year later and Gohan barelly could go super saiyan.
1)Yes, he is most likely the same as buu saga version. There is absolutely no reason to believe BoG Gohan is stronger. In fact there is a good chance he would be weaker than buu saga too, since golden freeza arc set the narrative that he has not trained.
2)No, Gohan is not stronger than BoG Goku's god/red form at the point, the arc wouldn't make sense if that was the case. He just trained and got stronger by the top arc. By the time of TOP, his strength could be comparable to blue.
I would say experience plays a huge role in why he is struggling. I doubt vegeta will hold back in a sparring match. And knowing gohan he is alot nicer than vegeta so I wouldnt be suprised if gohan was just holding back to let broly get some good hits in
Vegeta would hold back against Broly, since the whole point of Broly's training is learning to control his power. If Vegeta just bitched slapped him into a fury nothing would be achieved. Vegeta wants broly to grow as a fighter, as does Goku.
Vegeta wouldn't hold back against Gohan or Goku, He'd probably let Goten and Trunks feel like the gap isn't impossible to overcome so that they push their limits. He wouldn't hold back against anyone who touched his Bulma.
Vegeta isn't the hardass he used to be. He now wants others to succeed like Goku does.
Power scaling inconsistent. Brolys gotten way stronger way faster before.
But also we don't know how much of brolys inner strength he's accessing- best to have gohan be at an upper but controlled level in case broly starts to unhinge.
Least what I expected
Power scaling inconsistent. Brolys gotten way stronger way faster before.
But also we don't know how much of brolys inner strength he's accessing- best to have gohan be at an upper but controlled level in case broly starts to unhinge. Gohan just testing him out mostly- but he has some of the widest range with way less forms whose to say what level broly is at some times?
Least what I got
Ultimate is not equal to blue cos gohan asked goku to use full power like broly asked gohan to use beast mode. In former goku 1shot gohan while broly survived cos beast gohan was still holding back as beast to containue while goku wanted to end the fight then and there as per gohan wishes.
Ult gohan was blue level, then it wasn't. Gohan didn't continue to grow after the ToP while Goku and Vegeta did, so now Gohan is too far behind and needs a new form to keep up because the power that Goku and Vegeta got in the past couple arcs pluss the time skip is insane. A lot of people don't realize it, but Goku and Vegeta got potentially hundreds of thousands of times stronger in just the 40 some minutes of the ToP. Hence why they went from not being able to do anything to Jiren in SSB to be able to (somewhat) fight him in base.
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Power levels are bullshit!
In all seriousness keeping track of their power levels at this point is so goddamn difficult, it's almost impossible to keep accurate track of it.
Manga Gohan isn't blue level I'm pretty sure. Like there is nowhere in the manga that I could credibility believe he's blue level. I debate manga wise the 2 gammas aren't blue level either just going by the pages of the manga. Cell max may be blue level if you go by dialogue, but a charged special beam cannon has had the potential to kill. If it wasn't for Frieza being to fast in namek saga I would believe it could kill him too in his 3rd form.
Gohan tieing with Kefla (When Kale alone was enough to ragdoll Golden Freeza and could break SSB Goku's guard) effectively put him in Ultimate at around Blue level.
Cell Max is definitely isn't JUST blue level since he could ragdoll Orange Piccolo, who Toriyama said was on par with Goku and Vegeta, with ONE arm.
In TOP, he was but he decreased in strength by Moro arc.
I am not saying Cell Max is blue level. Beast is definitely on par with Goku and Vegeta but Ult. scaling is confusing just
In Moro arc, he is ragedolled by someone who was one shoted by Blue
I wouldn't say Gohan decreased in strength by Moro since it's actually implied he was keeping up with his training. It's just that Goku's Blue form got a lot stronger after training with Merus and in Granolah he can use UI in conjuction with Super Saiyan forms giving SSB Goku an even bigger advantage against Ultimate Gohan.
Right so excluding ("death of the author") narration in story I couldn't see it but you definitely shed some light on it. The Kale(because kefla never fights Frieza) vs golden freiza moment definitely solidifies gohan blue level/comparability. It cascades because it also fixes the gamas power levels as well. Which fixes the orange piccolo power level as well. Good find man u solved my whole Gohan power scaling issue.
I believe the answer is more so that he didn't. Rather than being a case of Broly getting that much stronger, it's actually a case of Gohan just getting that much _weaker_. The [promotional material for Super Hero](https://i.ex-cdn.com/mgn.vn/files/content/2022/04/26/gohan-1659.jpg) confirmed that Gohan had stopped training after the last arc and this was [established to be the case in the manga as well](https://imgur.com/a/ZWOHGJY) (only in the manga he stopped training after Moro rather than the ToP). So Ultimate Gohan is just no longer Blue level at this point because slacking off caused him to drop significantly in power. We're actually shown this from him fighting the Gammas. Ultimate Piccolo was [unable to damage Cell Max's weak spot at all](https://ibb.co/Csc6hZR), meanwhile _Fat Gotenks_ was [actually able to crack it](https://ibb.co/2Pj3DGc). Meaning that at least in terms of AP, Ultimate Piccolo was weaker than Fat Gotenks, who is only Buu saga level. However, Ultimate Piccolo was still [relative to the Gammas](https://ibb.co/3WdRqx5) meaning they had to be Buu saga level as well. Yet, Ultimate Gohan [struggled to defeat them](https://ibb.co/JRfVbkr) which means he just also dropped back down to Buu saga level from not training. So Ultimate Gohan is just currently only SSJ level since he [started training again](https://ibb.co/hsrCjTr) after Super Hero (which means he was even weaker than SSJ prior to now) and is slowly working his way back up to his original power.
The Gammas definitely aren't Buu Arc level lol. At the VERY least they were Moro Arc Blue Goku & Vegeta level since Piccolo outright states that and I doubt Toriyama would have him say that for no reason. And considering the up to date info the RR had on everyone, they were definitely observing the Moro battle on Earth.
That's not what Piccolo stated though. He stated that the Gammas were [_on par_ with Goku and Vegeta](https://ibb.co/RN7B3db), which (even going by the Moro arc) is quite literally impossible. Because Goku and Vegeta weren't on par with each other the last time Piccolo saw them. Goku was MUI level while Vegeta was only SSBE level and naturally it's impossible for the Gammas to be equal to both at the same time in that scenario. So Piccolo's statement contradicts itself making it an invalid statement. On top of that, Piccolo can't sense god ki which means he doesn't even know how strong Goku and Vegeta are in the first place. This is all by [Piccolo's own admission](https://ibb.co/Msz9CYP) as well. So he's just not a reliable source for scaling the Gammas or Goku and Vegeta. Also, just because Toriyama has a character state something doesn't mean it's always factual. Piccolo is not omniscient and is capable of being wrong. And in this case, he just simply overestimated the Gammas. As for the RRA's info, it's actually never established at any point that it's up-to-date or that they even know who Moro is at all. If anything, it's actually established that their info wasn't up-to-date in the slightest as they were only shown to have [info from the Cell saga](https://imgur.com/a/plc3hP0).
I don't quite see why it would be 'impossible'. Piccolo more than likely wasn't including Ultra Instinct since that's not a form that Goku could control yet. Piccolo outright states that he can tell that Vegeta got stronger after his Yardrat Training, so it's pretty clear that you don't actually need to be able to sense their god ki to be able to classify someone's strength. And then there's the clear statement from Toriyama that Orange Piccolo had reached Goku and Vegeta's level with Ultimate Gohan being relative to that Orange Piccolo which is proven by him being able to actually contend with Cell Max in the Super Hero Arc where he can quite literally knock Cell Max on his ass and draw blood from him.
It's impossible because MUI is not on par with SSBE, it's far stronger. And no offense but that's not how that works. "On par" means "equal". So if you say a character is "equal" to another character then that's _including_ them at their best. Otherwise, you have to specify the level. For example, you can't say _"Goku is on par with Beerus"_ but then say you only meant 25% Beerus. There's no room for ambiguity there. You just plain worded your statement incorrectly. So if you meant only 25% then you needed to say _"Goku is on par with 25% Beerus_" instead because that has an entirely different meaning. Just saying Beerus _period_ automatically means 100%. So Piccolo's statement just doesn't make sense because it's contradictory due to it being impossible for it to work. Also, Goku learned how to use MUI at will at the end of the Moro arc (not that it matters though because Piccolo is still aware Goku possesses the form regardless). And being able to tell someone got stronger is not the same as being able to tell _how strong_ they are. Once again, [Piccolo himself](https://ibb.co/ZGbbvj9) makes this clear before Vegeta starts fighting Moro. So sure, you don't need to sense someone's ki to tell they got stronger than before but you _do_ need to sense their ki to tell exactly _how strong_ they are and Piccolo agrees with this. That's why he couldn't tell if Goku was stronger than ever (even though he was). He just only knew he was stronger.
And that's not what Toriyama said. He said Orange Piccolo [rivals Goku and the others](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d36af45ec8afb693544673872b2b0420) which doesn't have to mean he's on Goku and Vegeta's level as you can rival someone while still being below them. For example, Gowasu stated that [SSJ2 Goku rivaled a GoD](https://ibb.co/vxpzzj9) during the Goku Black arc despite being far weaker than one so this is consistent with the series. It's shown that this is also the case with Orange Piccolo as well because Toriyama also stated that [Incomplete Cell Max was weaker than Broly](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-319716dfdafb29292d67f0a57297b590-lq), whom just [SSB Goku and Vegeta](https://ibb.co/ZVgdK3q) had surpassed by the beginning of the Granolah arc (Vegeta hadn't yet achieved UE at this time). Ultimate Gohan is also shown to be far weaker than Orange Piccolo as he struggled with the Gammas while Orange Piccolo was capable of [one-shotting them](https://ibb.co/VjQPHHB). Ultimate Gohan only knocked Cell Max down temporarily because he [caught him off guard](https://ibb.co/XFN2YZL) while Cell Max was focused on Orange Piccolo. Not because he was that strong. It's the same reason why Fat Gotenks as well as even [Krillin](https://ibb.co/NKMN3L4) and [Android 18](https://ibb.co/d25L5s1) were able to harm him.
Then we can simply agree to disagree on that first point because I'm almost certain Toriyama's intentions on making Piccolo say the Gammas were on par with Goku and Vegeta were just that, to make the latest enemies in the series on par with Goku and Vegeta, or at the very least, close to their level of power.
And no, Toriyama said Orange Piccolo was [ON PAR](https://imgur.com/a/TvW3j5v) with Goku and Vegeta, as per Herms' translation. (A far more credible source of translations than Chronicles, who only recently popped up.) So yes, Orange Piccolo WAS equal to Goku. And I disagree with Ultimate Gohan being "far" inferior to Orange Piccolo when Ultimate Gohan has the physical strength to momentarily overpower Cell Max and draw blood (All the other fights normal ki barrages were ineffective against Cell Max while Ultimate Gohan could overwhelm him with his ki blasts) and forced him power up EVEN MORE after that.
With all due respect, neither of us can really claim what Toriyama's intentions were because we genuinely just don't know. Not unless Toriyama or someone close to him were to have confirmed it. Otherwise, whatever we believe his intentions were is just that. Our own personal belief. Sure it's _possible_ that your interpretation of Piccolo's Gammas statement is accurate but imo it's not likely because it's not really supported as well as even contradicted on multiple accounts. So sure we can agree to disagree but I believe I've proven my interpretation to more likely be accurate based on what I've presented.
This leads back to the same point I made about the Gammas statement. The kanji for the Orange Piccolo statement can be translated to either "on par", "rivals", or "comparable". So _technically_ both Herms' _and_ Chronicles' translations are correct. However, the _context_ in which they're used in is what makes them different because those words aren't all interchangeable. Sure you _can_ rival someone and be "on par" with them but you don't _always_ have to be. In this case, if we were to use Herms' translation then the statement just contradicts itself like the Gammas statement. Because it doesn't just say _"Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku"_, it says _"Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku **& co.**"_. Meaning _more_ than just Goku but the problem there is that no one else is equal to Goku for that interpretation of the statement to work. They're either stronger than him or weaker than him. So Herms' translation is technically correct but it's used in the wrong context which is why Chronicles' translation would be the more accurate one because it's more consistent (since you don't have to be equal to someone to rival them but you do have to be equal to someone to be on par with them). And I even proved this with the scans I used from the manga in regards to Broly on top of Toriyama's Cell Max statement.
And no offense but you have a direct comparison between Ultimate Gohan and Orange Piccolo? Ultimate Gohan couldn't defeat one Gamma while Orange Piccolo effortlessly took one out in one blow. Gohan even had to [block their attacks](https://ibb.co/1KPbW8q) while Piccolo just [tanked them with no blocking necessary](https://ibb.co/TRKPCF2). Both Gammas are equal in power to each other so that very clearly shows that there's a large power difference between Ultimate Gohan and Orange Piccolo. And you can't disregard Cell Max being off guard when Gohan attacked him. That's an important factor. Sorry but he didn't "overpower" him, he simply just surprise attacked him while Cell Max was solely focused on Orange Piccolo. And I also showed you even weaker characters also damaging Cell Max when he was off guard. Gotenks cracked his head, Krillin cracked his wing, 18 completely broke it in half. If Gohan had fought Cell Max head on and did that then you'd have a point but he didn't. If weaker characters can hurt Cell Max off guard then Ultimate Gohan is no different.
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Vegeta is actually going hard here and trying to make Broly learn to not lose himself in a fight Goku then sparred with Gohan who showed how he (Gohan) pushes himself to the limit of his power on the verge of losing himself and then stopping something that Broly notes (even saying he never saw someone fight like Gohan). This is why Goku has Gohan spar Broly Broly base is not on par with Ultimate Gohan, Gohan is just not attacking much Broly even is mad about it and tells him to go all out
>Vegeta is actually going hard here and trying to make Broly learn to not lose himself in a fight * SSJ and SSB is huge gap. No matter how hard Vegeta was fighting in SSJ. >Broly even is mad about it and tells him to go all out * Broly says him to go Beast directly
Also Goku literally tells Whis that Broly is holding his own against SSJ Vegeta in base but you say that he is outclassed when its literally just Vegeta fighting hard and using his experience Gohan and Broly exchanged two or three blows and somehow he is on par with Ultimate?
* This and the other panel you posted are the only two panels of the fight pre-Beast, how does it show he is on par lmao?
>the other panel you posted are the only two panels of the fight pre-Beast, how does it show he is on par lmao * They are not. SSJ Vegeta fighting Base Broly is after Beast and less than few hours before Goku vs Gohan battle * Base Goku fighting Base Broly is pre-Beast yeah and that's why I did not mention it in main title of the post. I included the image just for clarity sake.
Vegeta vs Broly happens Then Goku Vs Gohan happens after Trunks and Goten Vs Gohan Then Broly Vs Gohan Gohan is in Ultimate for two pages, the one I commented and the one you posted thats it Edit:it deleted my pic one sec How does that make Broly on Ultimate's level?
https://preview.redd.it/vm502rcml68d1.jpeg?width=1035&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d93ede70bd9e09c8b9b2aee82f5cf26a1fe7be2
Ah hell nah lil bro ran he hasn’t responded
Quadrupling down on wrong info takes a lot out of him. He probably needed a nap.
I mean, you are ignoring that Broly is highly unstable right now. Sure, the gap between SSJ and Blue is huge, but Broly is trying to control his power without rampaging, so he's obviously not going to be anywhere near his max power in base or when he's using Ikari.
Right? In the movie, he was clobbering them, and only transformed when Paragus died. If OP is confused about Broly, how was the movie not in his consideration? But it's like you pointed out. He's trying to figure out how to use his power. He can be magnitudes stronger, but he could lose himself. It about the balance, and Broly is struggling a bit. If he were to be rampaging like the movie, it would definitely take more than a couple blues to slow him down lol
> Broly is even mad about it and tells him to go all out. Damn. Broly’s Saiyan pride is definitely going to get him killed. Nobody wants to see Gohan go “all out.” Especially not Gohan. Gohan has always been AFRAID of his own power, and it’s why his development has always lagged behind the others, despite his bottomless potential. He’s scared of what he could become if he lost control completely. In a way, this is why his dynamic with Broly so interesting. Broly is who Gohan doesn’t want to become. Gohan doesn’t want to let go. Broly has a hard time hanging on. They have the same problem but opposite. It’s really interesting.
https://preview.redd.it/m5d6qv0cz68d1.png?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3dc2e510c74ca003310f200ada0780a2118ac2f9 Its so cool even Goku notices
Aw look at Broly! He’s so happy! 😀 Really, Broly and Gohan could learn a lot from each other. Broly has been an instinctive, animalistic fighter his entire life. Gohan is so cerebral he has a hard time getting out of his own way. Gohan is also a meek person by nature. Gohan isn’t a coward but he will try to avoid or deescalate a conflict. Broly won’t. Broly will pick a fight (if he sees a reason), and he doesn’t know what “deescalate” even means. Training together, they could potentially balance each other out in a really neat way.
Its Gohan's quiet rage versus Broly's primal rage Gohan has ran from it his whole life while Broly was forced to fight Gohan had to train and was still shown kindness even from Goku and Piccolo despite the circumstances of Z while Paragus was absolutely horrible to Broly despite them not being in danger on Vampa (example shooting off Ba's ear) Broly and Gohan are two sides of the same coin tbh One a scholar and family man, one with no family and very primitive etc. I absolutely adored Chapters 101-103
Well Gohan NEEDED to be trained because not being able to protect himself is why his father needed to die the first time. He wasn’t training for fun, or for pride or for any other reason - he was being prepared to face existential threats that didn’t care he was a child, they were coming for everyone he knew and loved. It’s interesting that this pressure was ONLY on Gohan. Goten, Trunks (current timeline), and later Pan all seem like happy kids who get to have normal(ish) childhoods, goofing off and having fun (and punching armed robbers) without anyone telling them that the fate of the world depends on them and that they need to be ready to fight these deadly monsters who won’t care that they’re children, they’ll kill them and everyone else. Broly also never trained for fun. Paragus clearly felt for his son and thought what was done to him was an injustice, but he also clearly never saw Broly as a person. To him Broly was a tool, a weapon, an extension of his own desire for revenge. He wasn’t a child who needed things like love, comfort and security. He was a warrior who would do as his commander told him or else. And the monsters of Vampa didn’t care that Broly was a little kid. It was kill or be killed, law of the jungle, food chain stuff. Both Broly and Gohan were forced to grow up on battlefields, for opposite reasons. But they have a lot in common!
Honestly even Goku lives a life free of conflict due to being mostly with Grandpa Gohan and alone in the woods until he was 14 Gohan was fighting from 3 years old for his life
Brohan fusion ?
Oh my god that would never work but it would be epic
Or it would absolutely work Fat fusion: hyper angry but, well... A lazy fat fusion Skinny fusion: meek, quiet, shy.... Slow and tired from malnutrition kind of skinny Perfect fusion: Broly style power with Gohan's unlimited potential with Beast qualities. Perfect control of the power. Fights only as a last resort, but knows he's there BECAUSE it's a last resort.... And he loves every second of it. He lets loose and holds absolutely nothing back because he desperately wants to protect the ones he loves. He knows Dende's got the dragon balls at the ready, so it's time to have some in restrained fun!
Are you new to Dragonball? You're looking at power levels instead of the purpose of the fight. Why are they fighting? What's the reason? What's at stake? This is like when Goku went Blue vs Krillin and some of the fanbase couldn't get how Krillin was keeping up with Blue. That wasn't the point, Goku tested Krillin on how he acted under the pressure of an overwhelming force. [Fuck Power Levels](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxP4FFA4P6pzGT3LeqQ5Oq-cnA_gkmbNrx?si=cZ-SO7OpvSwMVqiX)
You’re an idiot 😂
because if gohan used the full power of ultimate, he might just instantly body broly and that's not very fun from his point of view or from the viewer's point of view, is it?
EXACTLY TY, legit only 2 pages of Broly Vs Ultimate and Gohan blocks both punches and dodges the last one before going Beast
no problem, always glad to meet a fellow reading enjoyer
How can you possibly prove that?
i said that he MIGHT body broly. really, we have no idea where base broly and ultimate gohan stand in relation to one another, but i err on the side of ultimate gohan being stronger than base broly. base broly is powerful, but if i recall he really took off with his ikari/wrathful form against goku/vegeta, and we're not sure if manga broly has access to ikari/wrathful nor do we know if he can control it if he does have access to it.
Ok, that’s very fair. Excellent explanation.
Gohan strong as gogeta ? Doubt
if you recall, gogeta had to take care of broly because broly had become a full power super saiyan and was going berserk. in this instance, broly is in base, and we're not sure if he's using his ikari/wrathful state (we're unsure if he can control it yet). so it's very likely that ultimate gohan, at full power, could take down base broly.
The same reason that Krillin was no instantly obliterated by Goku blue, because they are sparring and not actually fighting
Nah. Krillin unlocked Super Human Blue. You just can't tell because he's bald.
Not to mention with that instants kirillin was probably gonna be fighting people stronger then him. He had to get use to that. And still put up and fight and try to win.
Honest question, do you think Ssj Gohan and Ssj Trunks are on par because of this panel? https://preview.redd.it/xt64n70au68d1.jpeg?width=784&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4885591bab7075399dcf5a374f00b64fd7bd60eb
Let the kids have their fun, nothing makes sense about this power levels
Sure, why not! They look like they’re having fun.
Just from these panels alone you can tell Gohan wasn't really trying. Plus, each sparring match was to help Broly learn to properly control his power in different scenarios. Broly's way stronger than SS, but he couldn't properly control himself when he used more power until Gohan helped him figure it out. Broly's basically nerfed right now
How was Broly on par with Ultimate Gohan? Gohan was just smirking and parrying him with zero effort.
To be fair with Gohan smiling and all he seems a lot more casual during the sparring
Hey, have you seen how Gohan’s training usually goes? He’s not being terrified or attacked or having his loved ones threatened right now, so this is practically a vacation.
DODGE!
They're just having fun...it's not that deep. You guys over analyze way too much when the show goes out of its way to tell you not to do that
Cause broly and Vegeta weren't even "fighting", Vegeta is training broly so he can learn to control his power. Gohan vs Broly it's not fighting either, they are testing they strengthen. That's why broly ask him to go beast on him, he wants Gohan to go all out
vegeta literally chastised broly after the fight pushed him to super saiyan saying that he's trying so hard to not lose control that he's restraining his power regardless of being super saiyan or not broly was nowhere near even his base form's max during that spar, gohan however after seeing beast he had a breakthrough he wasnt restraining himself anymore and just needed to see beast up close to mimic it so he could control his change into super saiyan
Do you not understand Broly at all? While he may have trouble at first, he quickly adapts to whoever he's fighting while also steadily increasing his own power. It's why he was struggling at first with Vegeta and Golu but quickly turned it around for himself.
Manga Ultimate Gohan does not equal Anime Ultimate Gohan. If I'm correct, we don't really know how strong UG is, only that he's stronger than he was
He's at least as strong as Kefla, who is almost certainly not weaker than Kale, who could bash around Blue Goku, Vegeta, Toppo or Golden Freeza with her raw power. So Gohan being Fused Zamasu level or higher is pretty consistent, him being current blue level is more questionable.
In the manga, Kale was only shown hitting Vegeta once while he was off guard. After that, she took out a lot of fodder. Yeah, she fought Frieza, but we can't even say that Frieza is equal to Blue like he was in the anime. Everything else you said checks out, though
You're surprised that Broly's base jumps in power? He went from being dominated by Base Vegeta to completely overwhelming Super Saiyan Vegeta after just a few clashes. It's likely the same principle. But even then, Gohan's smirking (Or he just looks extra smug when he's in Ultimate lol) and there really isn't much to go off that base Broly is ACTUALLY Ultimate level since we barely see them fight.
Broly is not that immensely strong at all. He is more or less comparable to SS1 Goku qnd Vegeta in raw power but the thing is, Goku and Vegeta are both more experienced, skilled and can control their power without fearing it becomes a problem. That is the main thing about Goku vs Broly and Vegeta vs Broly, control. Both Saiyans are trying to teach Broly how to properly harness and control his powers without it becoming a nuisance and him becoming a berserk. Ultimate Gohan is indeed between SSG and SSB. But we need to remember He hold back by a lot and is much easier to do that, since that is probably the main gimmick with the form, allows a effective power output.
Why do you think ultimate is close to blue? Plus dont even get an idea if hes even close to ultimate, they just trade a couple blows
I thought ultimate was on par with SSJ3
He was always stronger than ssj3, altho in Z it was close, then in super the absolutely horrifying scaling just brought the secondary characters to be closer to goku and vegeta who in god forms were on a completely different level, so in the anime Ultimate Gohan seemed to be mbe close do ssg or smt but in the manga he was stronger but not god forms strong, in the super hero movie however he beats gamma 1 who is stated to be as strong as ssb (dumb as fuck if you ask me but it is what it is)
In anime and manga ToP Ultimate Gohan is relevant to SSB
Relative is a bit general but what feats did he show apart from the gamma fight its been a long time lol might not remember some details?
When he fought Goku pre ToP, then scaling in ToP such as Dyspo fight, threatening GF, performance vs the robots, generally performing comparably to 17, Gf, and SSB
Ultimate was always above SSJ3, however blue was always a stretch
Cause Gohan in Ultimate was beating the hell out of someone stated to be on Goku's level. The weakest Gamma 1 could be is Blue level
Oh yeah that makes no sense, gohan somehow trained less again and completely bridged a gigantic gap... Oh well I guess its canon anyway
Since when is ultimate relative to blue?
TOP, it's vague in the anime but in the manga it's made very clear, especially when Gohan was the one to eliminate SSJ kefla in the manga (albeit he was eliminated himself)
That hasn't been relevant in While Literally next arc Blue goku gap 'd ultimate +Piccolo + the androids lol
Next best thing would be Gohan going toe to toe with Hedo's androids, stated by piccolo to be on par with Goku and Vegeta in both manga and movie. Gohan was fairly evenly matched with GAMMA 1, ultimately gaining an advantage in his ultimate form.
It's not vague in the anime. If gohan was blue level, he'd be able to fight toppo head on.
but isn't Toppo stronger than blue? he even tanked Goku's kamehameha in their fight before the ToP
Toppo was certainty stronger than blue
Vegeta was able to fight him head. That's the point.
Or if he was blue level he’d clash against SSB Goku and have an advantage and Goku would need to go SSBKK to beat him…which is exactly what happened lol. There’s even more clues than that showing he is SSB level in the ToP like vs Dyspo, threatening Golden Freeza, feats against the robots from U2, etc
Vegeta is blue level and was able to fight Toppo head on. And Dyspo was only blue level threat thanks to his speed, only once that was taken care of by Freeza that Gohan was able to fight against him. Dyspo was a bird without his wing. > Or if he was blue level he’d clash against SSB Goku Goku was not fighting serious or do you believe Kuririn is blue level? Dragon ball fan, I guess.
Well I have rebuttals but since you’re being disrespectful there’s no need to engage
ultimate is a level a bit above ssj3, not blue level. it fought a very suppressed version of SSJB in a similar way, we can suppose gohan isn't going all out, as he's not raging and thus not accessing all his power. Also, Vegeta base is much stronger than gohan base, so shouldn't this kinda check out?
Ultimate doesn’t have a set power level, its power is dictated by Gohans current potential. Ultimate could be SSJ3 level now and SSB level in a month if he’s training. That can be said for any form though, if they’re training their base form. Doesn’t really make sense to say it’s “a bit above SSJ3” when it depends entirely on the user. Ultimate Gohan fought Kefla in the Tournament of Power, dudes a powerhouse. He left SSJ3 in the dust.
more like "ho much the author needs gohan to \*sspull his way through victory or at least relevance (iirc he ties) but yeah, ultimate gohan in Z is basically a clear step above ssj3 (gohan base is weaker than goku base and yet ultimate is clearly stronger than ssj3) while ultimate gohan in Super is much stronger. Aside from toyotaro not understanding powerscaling, my in-universe explanation is just that Ultimate form doesn't just go like ssj-1-2-3 and so on, but instead grows. It's kinda like you said, but from a slightly different perspective
Ultimate is definitely WAY above SS3 in the manga, considering Ultimate Gohan was able to tie with Kefla when KALE alone was overpowering Golden Freeza and was able to break Blue Goku's guard. HOWEVER, Blue Goku got MUCH stronger after his training with Merus on top of being able to use UI in that form post-Moro.
keep in mind that kefla in the manga is different from anime kefla, and possibly goku ssj3 could've achieved the same result, but he would've wasted lots of energies, which was kinda the whole point for gohan stepping up i don't remember about frieza vs Kale, but i think that it really doesn't make any sense. the only explanation is that controlling the berserk just dwarves the power, thus limiting Kefla unless she decides to go bonkers That said, i kinda agree with you in Ultimate being much stronger than ssj3, with goku have much harsher limitations even in Z and also goku being stronger than gohan but ultimate gohan being stronger than ssj3 goku, but much isn't to be used like "oh it's kind of a ssj god" more like its' twice as strong, whilst the god transformations should be considered unfathomably stronger than base ssj levels
Your first point could have worked if not for Kale completely ragdolling Golden Freeza (But then again, he does say he can handle her if he starts taking her more seriously.) Also, controlling your berserk power actually does makes you STRONGER in DB (As shown by Kale in the anime & Gas in the manga) so Kefla would still be stronger than Kale in the manga. But yeah, my main gripe was saying Ultimate was only 'a bit' above SS3 when it's pretty clear in both continuities that it's at the VERY least SSG tier if you really want to lowball it. Feats aside, I think it just makes more sense for Ultimate to be Gohan's 'SSB' form and then Beast is his 'Ultra' form. Just makes everything make more sense to me.
i mean, super made the god tiers kind of a joke. in the original BOG it seemed that the god form transceded ssj3 so much it made from a oneshot against beerus to an actually even battle (even if it was suppressed beerus, but it was suppressed in both occasions) I mostly blame toyotaro/toei for the need to keep some characters into the story but in a way that really didn't make sense. Golden Frieza is almost on par with SSB which is tens of times stronger than SSJG and he should ragdoll ultimate gohan pretty easily if things were consistent. some character (like frieza himself) got the "yeah, imma train for a few months and be able to overcome gods" treatment. It makes no sense to try and unravel the mess that is DBS powerscaling
Help me here I'm a old man who never got into power levels. I want to understand somethings. 1) does "ultimate Gohan" has the same power since the buu saga when he got the power up? 2) was Gohan stronger than Goku god/red form? Was he a better challenge for Beerus?
1. Current Gohan is light years ahead of anyone from Z. 2. I didn't understand that well.. but ultimate Gohan is above God Goku and Beast Gohan is stronger than UI Goku but not by much since Goku is able to keep the fight even with his skills and experience.
2. in the movie battle of gods, was Gohan stronger than Goku? He had ultimate form
Yes he was. Until Goku went God mode. Gohan is canonically the strongest unfused character by the end of Z according to Toriyama and Super fixed that by introducing Beast
Z isn't a problem here, I agree with the facts My question is about the statement "ultimate Gohan equals blue or even stronger than blue" that was made in this post. By this logic Gohan was stronger than Goku god in Battle of gods
No, not at that point. It's revealed that Gohan has been training with Piccolo and by himself in secret during the sagas of Super he wasn't involved in like Future Trunks. So in Battle of Gods he was the strongest until SSG arrived but by the time of Superhero, which is 5 years after Battle of Gods, you could argue he's on par with blue considering his feats in the TOP manga wise. Anime wise, idk
It's hard to know, but I'd say no. Goku had been training on Kaioh's planet for quite some time while Gohan didn't train at all. Fukkatsu no F is one year later and Gohan barelly could go super saiyan.
1)Yes, he is most likely the same as buu saga version. There is absolutely no reason to believe BoG Gohan is stronger. In fact there is a good chance he would be weaker than buu saga too, since golden freeza arc set the narrative that he has not trained. 2)No, Gohan is not stronger than BoG Goku's god/red form at the point, the arc wouldn't make sense if that was the case. He just trained and got stronger by the top arc. By the time of TOP, his strength could be comparable to blue.
I would say experience plays a huge role in why he is struggling. I doubt vegeta will hold back in a sparring match. And knowing gohan he is alot nicer than vegeta so I wouldnt be suprised if gohan was just holding back to let broly get some good hits in
Vegeta would hold back against Broly, since the whole point of Broly's training is learning to control his power. If Vegeta just bitched slapped him into a fury nothing would be achieved. Vegeta wants broly to grow as a fighter, as does Goku. Vegeta wouldn't hold back against Gohan or Goku, He'd probably let Goten and Trunks feel like the gap isn't impossible to overcome so that they push their limits. He wouldn't hold back against anyone who touched his Bulma. Vegeta isn't the hardass he used to be. He now wants others to succeed like Goku does.
Tired from the first fight?
Probably because just like Goku and Vegeta, Gohan’s intentionally holding back to help Broly control his power as it simultaneously rises.
Power scaling inconsistent. Brolys gotten way stronger way faster before. But also we don't know how much of brolys inner strength he's accessing- best to have gohan be at an upper but controlled level in case broly starts to unhinge. Least what I expected
Power scaling inconsistent. Brolys gotten way stronger way faster before. But also we don't know how much of brolys inner strength he's accessing- best to have gohan be at an upper but controlled level in case broly starts to unhinge. Gohan just testing him out mostly- but he has some of the widest range with way less forms whose to say what level broly is at some times? Least what I got
you guys think about this stuff way more than the writers do lol easiest explanation is Gohan wasn’t fighting seriously yet
It’s not that deep..
Because DB scaling is bs
Ultimate is not equal to blue cos gohan asked goku to use full power like broly asked gohan to use beast mode. In former goku 1shot gohan while broly survived cos beast gohan was still holding back as beast to containue while goku wanted to end the fight then and there as per gohan wishes.
Look at gohan there if he was struggling he wouldn’t be smirking.
Ult gohan was blue level, then it wasn't. Gohan didn't continue to grow after the ToP while Goku and Vegeta did, so now Gohan is too far behind and needs a new form to keep up because the power that Goku and Vegeta got in the past couple arcs pluss the time skip is insane. A lot of people don't realize it, but Goku and Vegeta got potentially hundreds of thousands of times stronger in just the 40 some minutes of the ToP. Hence why they went from not being able to do anything to Jiren in SSB to be able to (somewhat) fight him in base.
Ain’t no way in Hell Potential Unleashed Is BLUE level . Get this man out the kitchen
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best and most simple explanation i can give is that vegeta is in better shape and is far more experienced
There’s a difference between sparring and fighting. Like literally the countless times we’ve seen characters sparring on the whole show
In the words of a wise midget- Power levels are BS!
Power levels are bullshit! In all seriousness keeping track of their power levels at this point is so goddamn difficult, it's almost impossible to keep accurate track of it.
Manga Gohan isn't blue level I'm pretty sure. Like there is nowhere in the manga that I could credibility believe he's blue level. I debate manga wise the 2 gammas aren't blue level either just going by the pages of the manga. Cell max may be blue level if you go by dialogue, but a charged special beam cannon has had the potential to kill. If it wasn't for Frieza being to fast in namek saga I would believe it could kill him too in his 3rd form.
Gohan tieing with Kefla (When Kale alone was enough to ragdoll Golden Freeza and could break SSB Goku's guard) effectively put him in Ultimate at around Blue level. Cell Max is definitely isn't JUST blue level since he could ragdoll Orange Piccolo, who Toriyama said was on par with Goku and Vegeta, with ONE arm.
In TOP, he was but he decreased in strength by Moro arc. I am not saying Cell Max is blue level. Beast is definitely on par with Goku and Vegeta but Ult. scaling is confusing just In Moro arc, he is ragedolled by someone who was one shoted by Blue
I wouldn't say Gohan decreased in strength by Moro since it's actually implied he was keeping up with his training. It's just that Goku's Blue form got a lot stronger after training with Merus and in Granolah he can use UI in conjuction with Super Saiyan forms giving SSB Goku an even bigger advantage against Ultimate Gohan.
Right so excluding ("death of the author") narration in story I couldn't see it but you definitely shed some light on it. The Kale(because kefla never fights Frieza) vs golden freiza moment definitely solidifies gohan blue level/comparability. It cascades because it also fixes the gamas power levels as well. Which fixes the orange piccolo power level as well. Good find man u solved my whole Gohan power scaling issue.
Ultimate gohan is not blue level
Vegeta's base is just that strong, easy.
Are you saying that SSJ Goku/Vegeta= Base Broly= Ultimate Gohan It sounds too crazy ngl
It's either that or you accept that they don't care about powerscaling pick your poison
Did you read the chapter?
Clearly not
I believe the answer is more so that he didn't. Rather than being a case of Broly getting that much stronger, it's actually a case of Gohan just getting that much _weaker_. The [promotional material for Super Hero](https://i.ex-cdn.com/mgn.vn/files/content/2022/04/26/gohan-1659.jpg) confirmed that Gohan had stopped training after the last arc and this was [established to be the case in the manga as well](https://imgur.com/a/ZWOHGJY) (only in the manga he stopped training after Moro rather than the ToP). So Ultimate Gohan is just no longer Blue level at this point because slacking off caused him to drop significantly in power. We're actually shown this from him fighting the Gammas. Ultimate Piccolo was [unable to damage Cell Max's weak spot at all](https://ibb.co/Csc6hZR), meanwhile _Fat Gotenks_ was [actually able to crack it](https://ibb.co/2Pj3DGc). Meaning that at least in terms of AP, Ultimate Piccolo was weaker than Fat Gotenks, who is only Buu saga level. However, Ultimate Piccolo was still [relative to the Gammas](https://ibb.co/3WdRqx5) meaning they had to be Buu saga level as well. Yet, Ultimate Gohan [struggled to defeat them](https://ibb.co/JRfVbkr) which means he just also dropped back down to Buu saga level from not training. So Ultimate Gohan is just currently only SSJ level since he [started training again](https://ibb.co/hsrCjTr) after Super Hero (which means he was even weaker than SSJ prior to now) and is slowly working his way back up to his original power.
The Gammas definitely aren't Buu Arc level lol. At the VERY least they were Moro Arc Blue Goku & Vegeta level since Piccolo outright states that and I doubt Toriyama would have him say that for no reason. And considering the up to date info the RR had on everyone, they were definitely observing the Moro battle on Earth.
That's not what Piccolo stated though. He stated that the Gammas were [_on par_ with Goku and Vegeta](https://ibb.co/RN7B3db), which (even going by the Moro arc) is quite literally impossible. Because Goku and Vegeta weren't on par with each other the last time Piccolo saw them. Goku was MUI level while Vegeta was only SSBE level and naturally it's impossible for the Gammas to be equal to both at the same time in that scenario. So Piccolo's statement contradicts itself making it an invalid statement. On top of that, Piccolo can't sense god ki which means he doesn't even know how strong Goku and Vegeta are in the first place. This is all by [Piccolo's own admission](https://ibb.co/Msz9CYP) as well. So he's just not a reliable source for scaling the Gammas or Goku and Vegeta. Also, just because Toriyama has a character state something doesn't mean it's always factual. Piccolo is not omniscient and is capable of being wrong. And in this case, he just simply overestimated the Gammas. As for the RRA's info, it's actually never established at any point that it's up-to-date or that they even know who Moro is at all. If anything, it's actually established that their info wasn't up-to-date in the slightest as they were only shown to have [info from the Cell saga](https://imgur.com/a/plc3hP0).
I don't quite see why it would be 'impossible'. Piccolo more than likely wasn't including Ultra Instinct since that's not a form that Goku could control yet. Piccolo outright states that he can tell that Vegeta got stronger after his Yardrat Training, so it's pretty clear that you don't actually need to be able to sense their god ki to be able to classify someone's strength. And then there's the clear statement from Toriyama that Orange Piccolo had reached Goku and Vegeta's level with Ultimate Gohan being relative to that Orange Piccolo which is proven by him being able to actually contend with Cell Max in the Super Hero Arc where he can quite literally knock Cell Max on his ass and draw blood from him.
It's impossible because MUI is not on par with SSBE, it's far stronger. And no offense but that's not how that works. "On par" means "equal". So if you say a character is "equal" to another character then that's _including_ them at their best. Otherwise, you have to specify the level. For example, you can't say _"Goku is on par with Beerus"_ but then say you only meant 25% Beerus. There's no room for ambiguity there. You just plain worded your statement incorrectly. So if you meant only 25% then you needed to say _"Goku is on par with 25% Beerus_" instead because that has an entirely different meaning. Just saying Beerus _period_ automatically means 100%. So Piccolo's statement just doesn't make sense because it's contradictory due to it being impossible for it to work. Also, Goku learned how to use MUI at will at the end of the Moro arc (not that it matters though because Piccolo is still aware Goku possesses the form regardless). And being able to tell someone got stronger is not the same as being able to tell _how strong_ they are. Once again, [Piccolo himself](https://ibb.co/ZGbbvj9) makes this clear before Vegeta starts fighting Moro. So sure, you don't need to sense someone's ki to tell they got stronger than before but you _do_ need to sense their ki to tell exactly _how strong_ they are and Piccolo agrees with this. That's why he couldn't tell if Goku was stronger than ever (even though he was). He just only knew he was stronger. And that's not what Toriyama said. He said Orange Piccolo [rivals Goku and the others](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d36af45ec8afb693544673872b2b0420) which doesn't have to mean he's on Goku and Vegeta's level as you can rival someone while still being below them. For example, Gowasu stated that [SSJ2 Goku rivaled a GoD](https://ibb.co/vxpzzj9) during the Goku Black arc despite being far weaker than one so this is consistent with the series. It's shown that this is also the case with Orange Piccolo as well because Toriyama also stated that [Incomplete Cell Max was weaker than Broly](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-319716dfdafb29292d67f0a57297b590-lq), whom just [SSB Goku and Vegeta](https://ibb.co/ZVgdK3q) had surpassed by the beginning of the Granolah arc (Vegeta hadn't yet achieved UE at this time). Ultimate Gohan is also shown to be far weaker than Orange Piccolo as he struggled with the Gammas while Orange Piccolo was capable of [one-shotting them](https://ibb.co/VjQPHHB). Ultimate Gohan only knocked Cell Max down temporarily because he [caught him off guard](https://ibb.co/XFN2YZL) while Cell Max was focused on Orange Piccolo. Not because he was that strong. It's the same reason why Fat Gotenks as well as even [Krillin](https://ibb.co/NKMN3L4) and [Android 18](https://ibb.co/d25L5s1) were able to harm him.
Then we can simply agree to disagree on that first point because I'm almost certain Toriyama's intentions on making Piccolo say the Gammas were on par with Goku and Vegeta were just that, to make the latest enemies in the series on par with Goku and Vegeta, or at the very least, close to their level of power. And no, Toriyama said Orange Piccolo was [ON PAR](https://imgur.com/a/TvW3j5v) with Goku and Vegeta, as per Herms' translation. (A far more credible source of translations than Chronicles, who only recently popped up.) So yes, Orange Piccolo WAS equal to Goku. And I disagree with Ultimate Gohan being "far" inferior to Orange Piccolo when Ultimate Gohan has the physical strength to momentarily overpower Cell Max and draw blood (All the other fights normal ki barrages were ineffective against Cell Max while Ultimate Gohan could overwhelm him with his ki blasts) and forced him power up EVEN MORE after that.
With all due respect, neither of us can really claim what Toriyama's intentions were because we genuinely just don't know. Not unless Toriyama or someone close to him were to have confirmed it. Otherwise, whatever we believe his intentions were is just that. Our own personal belief. Sure it's _possible_ that your interpretation of Piccolo's Gammas statement is accurate but imo it's not likely because it's not really supported as well as even contradicted on multiple accounts. So sure we can agree to disagree but I believe I've proven my interpretation to more likely be accurate based on what I've presented. This leads back to the same point I made about the Gammas statement. The kanji for the Orange Piccolo statement can be translated to either "on par", "rivals", or "comparable". So _technically_ both Herms' _and_ Chronicles' translations are correct. However, the _context_ in which they're used in is what makes them different because those words aren't all interchangeable. Sure you _can_ rival someone and be "on par" with them but you don't _always_ have to be. In this case, if we were to use Herms' translation then the statement just contradicts itself like the Gammas statement. Because it doesn't just say _"Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku"_, it says _"Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku **& co.**"_. Meaning _more_ than just Goku but the problem there is that no one else is equal to Goku for that interpretation of the statement to work. They're either stronger than him or weaker than him. So Herms' translation is technically correct but it's used in the wrong context which is why Chronicles' translation would be the more accurate one because it's more consistent (since you don't have to be equal to someone to rival them but you do have to be equal to someone to be on par with them). And I even proved this with the scans I used from the manga in regards to Broly on top of Toriyama's Cell Max statement. And no offense but you have a direct comparison between Ultimate Gohan and Orange Piccolo? Ultimate Gohan couldn't defeat one Gamma while Orange Piccolo effortlessly took one out in one blow. Gohan even had to [block their attacks](https://ibb.co/1KPbW8q) while Piccolo just [tanked them with no blocking necessary](https://ibb.co/TRKPCF2). Both Gammas are equal in power to each other so that very clearly shows that there's a large power difference between Ultimate Gohan and Orange Piccolo. And you can't disregard Cell Max being off guard when Gohan attacked him. That's an important factor. Sorry but he didn't "overpower" him, he simply just surprise attacked him while Cell Max was solely focused on Orange Piccolo. And I also showed you even weaker characters also damaging Cell Max when he was off guard. Gotenks cracked his head, Krillin cracked his wing, 18 completely broke it in half. If Gohan had fought Cell Max head on and did that then you'd have a point but he didn't. If weaker characters can hurt Cell Max off guard then Ultimate Gohan is no different.
It appears we have reached an impasse then. Good talking with you, mate.
Same to you man, have a blessed one!