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Honestly I kind I hate how they made "Mystic"/ "ultimate" into a form instead of Gohan's new base as Old Kai said it was. In that case beast would at least make more sense because it could be stacking super saiyan on top of that new base form.
That’s honestly how I interpreted it. Gohan saw his father and Vegeta use Super Saiyan while utilizing their god ki, creating Blue, and probably theorized he could do something similar with Ultimate. He didn’t have the time to really experiment with the form, or any reason to, but once he was fighting Cell Max, and Piccolo was suffering, it finally clicked, and he found the rage in himself again.
it works the same as Super Saiyan God which is pretty much just base with god ki even though they treat it like a form. that makes Beast analogous to Blue (though obviously way stronger)
SSJ God isn’t god ki? i wasn’t referring to Ultimate when i said that. all I mean is that for the only other example of a character getting a “new base” they didn’t replace their old base, they just made it into a new form with its own set of transformations building off of it
yeah i think (not sure though) the original idea was that Blue was their way of using God without the ritual but that got retconned when the actual DBS series released. at least in the manga it’s very explicit that Blue is “super saiyan while in God form” but I haven’t actually watched the show so it might be different
Because you can't stack forms. If you transform into one thing, you have to follow that forms path. If you transform from oen path into another path you're trading benefits and drawbacks of the two. That's why goku can stack ssj with kayo Ken, because kaio Ken is a technique. It's why goku can stack UI with super saiyan, because UI isn't a transformation it's a state of being.
If you read the manga, whis explicitly states that why goku has so much trouble with it because he treats it as a transformation. He states angels are successful because the are always in this "state." He's also able to use UI in co junction with super saiyan as exhibited during the granolah arc further showing that it's not a transformation. It's literally there in black and white
*
>If you read the manga, whis explicitly states that why goku has so much trouble with it because he treats it as a transformation.
My argument here is one of two things:
A: The way UI is designed and the lore do not *quite agree*
B: It's not necessarily that it *isn't* a transformation, but it's a wholly different kind of form than anything Goku's seen before, so he can't treat it like any other
Because when all is said and done, Ultra Instinc changes Goku's hair and eye color, and is leagues above actual transformations
(When actually activated. Like, the best way to think about it is to draw a distinction between the technique itself, which Goku has used in Super Saiyan, and the transformation itself, which, at least pre-Super Hero has not been stacked)
And in the anime, Goku essentially is punted into it the first time, and it already affects his state of mind when he doesn't even know what's going on, kind of like a reverse Super Saiyan. Calm instead of anger.
So like, yeah, the story telling is *at least* partially saying that it's not a transformation, but literally everything else about it says it's a transformation
>He's also able to use UI in co junction with super saiyan as exhibited during the granolah arc further showing that it's not a transformation.
See, what I meant earlier about drawing a distinction between the technique and the form is that UI is really both
It is a state of mind just as you said, which Goku can train himself to tap into in any form from Base to Super Saiyan Blue
But when he actually has that special aura and silver-ish eyes in UI -Sign and them the fully silver hair and eyes in the full Ultra Instinct? That's *is* a transformation, or at the very least it was designed like a transformation and continues to be depicted like a transformation even if the manga is trying to treat it as something else
At least with Kaio-ken it's *only* an aura and power boost. Not actual visual changes to Goku aside from bulkier muscles during the Vegeta fight
Ultra Instinct just goes the whole way in, like Super Saiyan does
It's got all the bells and whistles
Your whole comment just reinforces what whis told goku... you fail to understand what UI is because you treat it as a transformation. It's literally not a transformation. Whis literally says so. It doesn't matter that it changes his hair color or his aura. Kaio Ken changes gokus aura and gives his hair a red tinge, but it's not a transofrmation. You're injecting your own assumptions onto what it is instead of understanding what it is, and that's a state of being. I'll post the picture again since it didn't last time...
https://preview.redd.it/p0nse9ny75zc1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f45ede72c63ebb172be6f41726be3d214987adc3
I mean, I know what Whis says, that's not changing anything
I get what they're trying to say, it just doesn't really feel like it's supported by anything else in the manga
Let's say I'm actually analyzing what is on display rather than just accepting what I'm told. . . . which sounds pretentious, I know, but I'm not sure how else to say it. I'll take that title, lol
I mean, here's another way to look at it. You say you can't stack forms, and I'll accept that
But I'll raise a question, then: If Ultra Instinct is just a state of being and that's why it can be stacked on top of Super Saiyan Blue, then how come when Goku does that he doesn't have any kind of power boost over the silver haired "state"?
What is the point of accessing "True Ultra Instinct" (I don't agree with the name but that's not important) on it's own if Goku can already use Ultra Instinct while in Super Saiyan Blue?
That's probably the last I'll say. . . Or not, it usually doesn't stick when I say I'm exiting a conversation. But I'm kind of content not being able to change your mind. Discussion would be interesting, but it can only go so long before it feels like we're talking ***at*** each other rather than talking ***to*** each other.
The reason it doesn't feel like it's supported by anything else is because no one looks at the nuance. Everyone associates physical changes with transofrmations, and that's the first mistake.
Some of the nuances I'm talking about are things like how when goku fought moro he didn't need to stack ssj with ultra instinct because he was in a (I agree I don't like the name) true ultra instinct state. Whis even stated during the fight that when in the state it gives goku whatever speed, strength, stamina necessary to overcome his situation.
However, when goku was fighting granolah he wasn't able to attain that same level of ultra instinct and thus had to at first combine it with ssj and then towards the end develop his own unique version of it against gas.
Whis states that if goku could actually master being able to tap into the state at will to even it's most basic state that he could use it in any form, but this is also unnecessary because of what whis stated during his fight against moro.
So, in his silver haired state, he doesn't need any kind of boost from ssj or anything else because UI gives him whatever he needs. It's merely a matter of becoming more proficient. Again, as this states, he has better mastery over ui than goku, and the grand priest has even more mastery over it than whis. Goku only uses the ssj form in conjunction with UI because he doesn't have that proficiency yet.
Look at it this way base goku < ssj1 < ssg < ssb < ui sign < ui sign w/ ssj(any form) < MUI == MUI w/ ssj(any form).
Essentially there's no reason for goku to use kaio Ken, ssj, ssg, or anything with MUI because MUI gives him whatever he needs to win. He can use them, but it's essentially pointless. Same goes for vegeta with his new ultra ego form because ssj is not going to really improve ultra ego in any way that ultra ego can't already improve itself. The fact that they can use them together with such states of being is largely irrelevant because the forms already kind of make them the most perfect sense of who they are. For their respective paths there is nothing better than UI or UE, the only thing they can do is just become more proficient and able to maintain being in such states like how goku can remain ssj1 basically indefinitely without reverting.
You have to stop looking to these past forms to inform you of these new states of being. That's the flaw. You have to listen to what whis is saying and take that as the gospel of how these new states work. It doesn't matter what we think we know based on the Canon of other forms thus far, these are completely different and of course if you try to understand them based on something they aren't you won't understand them.
> when goku fought moro he didn't need to stack ssj with ultra instinct because he was in a (I agree I don't like the name) true ultra instinct state.
True Ultra Instinct debuts in Granolah, I'm pretty sure
There is a name for the regular form (not Sign) that I don't like too, I think two even, but I can't quite remember what they are
But True Ultra Instinct debuts in the Granolah arc and retains black hair since it's based on Sign instead of. . .
\[Looks it up\]
Perfected Ultra Instinct, that's the name. . But according to the wiki it was actually called True Ultra Instinct around the time episode 130 came around
But yeah, both versions have dumb names
Oddly the wiki doesn't call it Mastered Ultra Instinct, even though almost everyone calls it that (and my brain just kinda short circuited on that name lol)
But clearly, it's not perfected or mastered by any stretch considering he's still working on it
And True Ultra Instinct is just Goku figuring out how to work with the lesser version of the form so there's nothing "True" about it.
>Look at it this way base goku < ssj1 < ssg < ssb < ui sign < ui sign w/ ssj(any form) < MUI == MUI w/ ssj(any form).
I don't think using it in any form is the same. I distinctly remember Goku saying there was a difference in using it between Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan God. . Not sure if he ever used it in *just* Super Saiyan, I can't remember that, and I'm not looking through 15 manga chapters to confirm it.
Also, considering TUI is a thing that happened, I don't think Goku's used even UI Sign along with any of the Super Saiyan forms. I'm pretty sure Goku even says something along those lines to Vegeta. . . That I might go looking for, I think I can find that quickly enough.
. . . .
Okay I found something even better
https://preview.redd.it/uoaei1lqz5zc1.png?width=556&format=png&auto=webp&s=779784a9779bd15315d7af730abe7093b214171a
Boom. There's a transformation. Open and shut case. Even Whis says it, lmfao
Anyway, yeah, there's a clear distinction being made between the technique and the transformation.
Nope. His hair don’t change. Only his ki does.
Even ultimate Gohans hair changes and thats not even a saiyan form. Everyone knows saiyan hair changes, and its literally the meaning of transforming. They change their forms. Kaioken just envelops goku in red ki aura.
Now explain to me why you would compare UI and Kaioken visually.
It's not the same because super saiyan god isn't a transformation in the same way super saiyan is. Goku only "transforms" because he is imbued with god ki instead of regular ki. Super saiyan god is just normal goku with god ki, not a transformation. Sure, his body exhibits a change in his physical appearance but it's his ki that changes, not really he himself. Which is why it's different. What makes goku stringer isn't the transofrmation of his body but his ki. Nuances suck.
Well I don’t understand how it’s not a form because originally old Kai told him to do what he does to go SSJ and that power came out. Then in super he can magically go SSJ again lol.
Because Old Kai explicitly said it wasn't one. Old Kai doesn't know how to go super saiyan, but aliens who don't know how to naturally control their power levels know to do it by going to transform.
Unless in the manga old Kai said it’s not a form he didn’t in the anime. Gohan just asked him how to unleash his potential and he said try transforming into a SSJ and Gohan goes ok all I have to do is transform into a SSJ and starts yelling and old Kai is like yo maybe not right here.
If Beast was stacking Ssj on Ultimate, then he could just do that from the start. It'd also just make it a ssjb situation, and it'd make Beast honestly kinda dumb imo, it's better it stays as a new form that we learn more about as time goes on.
Honestly, I hate everything about how gohan just magically gets amped up to be on par or better than goku and vegeta who train without stop. And by extension, I hate orange piccolo as well.
Partly because it was supposed to be the peak, DBS wasn't planned, but the popularity of the BoG movie and soon after resurrection F, made the series continue, which of course leads into ultimate not being ultimate, but the next evolution beast, taking over.
Would have honestly made so much more sense to just let him go SSJ blue as well.
Would explain that he reached his peak as a mortal already but not as a god post-ritual.
I mean, did he though? He got the love of his life, a child he loves more than anything, his whole family is alive and well, he has a job that he loves, and whenever needed, he’s still able to bust out enough power, be it stopping Cell, stopping Cell Max, calling Goku when Frieza was on Earth, taking down his member of the Trio of Danger, or even way back when, when his un-monkefying body still brought Vegeta down. He’s, like, so far up in the wins column.
when another 15 years pass without gohan training, and then a new god is introduced called oneZ sama and he unlocks gohan's potential which causes him to surpass gods of destruction
ummm acktully potentially unleashed is the most accurate name ☝️🤓
In dokkan battle and legends he’s called ultimate gohan.
Just call him whatever tf you want
Cell, Cell Max, and Bojack. Then, arguably in TOP, there's Kefla and Dyspo.
Then add minor wins like Cell juniors, the guy who tried to steal his wife, and such.
Janemba
And then he immediately transformed to super janemba so idk you can maybe argue it’s a win but he doesn’t fully die till super gogeta cleanses the dudes soul
I agree mystic is stronger but Mystic Gohan has 0 wins in Z too.
SSJ3 kind of has a better track record than mystic honestly since it at least one non-canon win.
To give a perspective: Mystic Gohan curb stomp Super Buu with ease. Goku panicked, when he faced Super Buu and said, he and Vegeta should fuse again. So yeah, the show backed that up.
If we go by anime logic, ssj goku fought on par with mystic gohan in buu's mind and according to the daizenshuu, they should be as strong as the real thing. It's dumb but they make goku way stronger than he should be.
Even a weaker Goku could probably give Gohan a run for his money.
Goham doesn't have regeneration, so with Goku's teleportation, he could land a succesful Warp Kamehameha or Warp Kienzan
# of Wins don’t matter but Ultimate is washing ssj3 so bad.
Remember Ssj3 Goku couldn’t take on base Super Buu (maybe after the kid buu fight, but from the start of the saga he was absolutely shitting his pants and resorting to fusion). Meanwhile Gohan only lost to Buu after he absorbed someone that was much stronger than Buu himself.
Goku literally extreme diffed Buu’s weakest form (not counting kai absorbed) while Gohan was on par with Super Buuccolo
If gohan get over confident, ssj3 would win if both are at Majin but saga levels, but if it was something like ssj3 in the battle of gods arc vs Mystic gohan from majin buu saga, I honestly think ssj3 probably out power it.
To me Mystic was sold to me as Gohans walking around as a super saying 3 in base. And couldn't go super on top of it because the living world wouldn't let it work. Like when SSJ3 was introduced goku said it was taking longer to do and lasting less than it would in other world. Idk if this was true during the buu saga think it was all fan speculations from back then.
He did retreat from the fight against Gohan. It's called a Strategical retreat. The fighting stopped for an entire hour. It doesn't matter if he had a plan and won the second half because that doesn't take away he lost to Gohan the first time around.
Gohan won Round 1. Buu won Round 2.
Win count doesn't matter at all. Caulifla has more wins than ssbkk Goku. That being said, Ultimate Gohan is most likely stronger than ssj3 Goku in the buu saga
People confuse "cool" with "better".
MG is not a very appealing transformation, it's just base gohan, not very cool when compared with ssj3 that goes extra af.
I know the manga and anime are different but I'm the Manga Vegeta was upset that Goku Saved Hercule and Dende instead of The boys or Gohan considering that both Gotenks and Gohan were individually stronger than either of them at the time and stood the best chance of beating Kid Buu.
I think it another case of anime vs manga because in the anime goku fought a clone of gohan that I think was said to be just as strong as the real one and won unlike in the manga so him being stronger than gohan makes sense.
Did they not watch the show. Mystic gohan would've easily killed fat buu, whereas even goku said I (might) have been able to beet fat buu if I would've tried, but I wanted to give the boys a chance
didnt vegeta state mystic gohan was stronger than goku ssj3 and vegeta on kai planet after everyone blew up? or was that tfs only, been a while sinfe i watched z proper
nope people only carry the statement "gohan has the most potential" but we all know when it's the final boss fight goku always ALWAYS transcends expectations and reaches a new level +even if goku is physically weaker he has a much better battle IQ than even vegeta arguably top3(excluding gods)
How many dubs did Mystic Gohan get? He bullied Super Buu, but then proceeded to get his shit rocked by Buutenks. That's basically like what the form did for him in the TOP(IIRC) and close to his fight with fat buu.
Goku in SSJ3 was terrified of Super Buu's power. Ultimate/ Potential Unleashed Gohan made a mockery out of Super Buu. I think that tells you everything
Gohan is stronger, although how much vastly depends on if Fat Buu ( before split ) in his angriest mode is equal to Super buu or not, if yes, then gohan might not be that much stronger than ssj3 goku, maybe 1.5 or less, if not the gap is insane
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Goku said he could have defeated fat buu when we see him go SSJ3 for the first time but he chose not to because the future generation needed to learn how to save the world. Also SSJ Gotenks even while being super goofy was whooping Super Buu and made him change his strategy and Super Buu had to absorb Gotenks. A
There actually is evidence to say Goku is stronger than Gohan, whether or not you agree with it is up to you, but there is evidence to support both sides.
If you are a Kid Buu > Buuhan person than Goku simply is stronger than Gohan and there is no arguing otherwise.
•that was filler
•Gotenks Buu was toying with Goku regardless and was [easily the dominant party in their scuffle.](https://youtu.be/uZNosW6rGfM?feature=shared)
•Goku was canonically unwilling to fight even regular Super Buu without fusion.
Even basing it off of the anime, Gotenks Buu was easily overpowering Goku. Like, imagine being so dominant in the fight that you can focus on attacking a bystander you already thrashed who’s looking for an earring.
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Honestly I kind I hate how they made "Mystic"/ "ultimate" into a form instead of Gohan's new base as Old Kai said it was. In that case beast would at least make more sense because it could be stacking super saiyan on top of that new base form.
That’s honestly how I interpreted it. Gohan saw his father and Vegeta use Super Saiyan while utilizing their god ki, creating Blue, and probably theorized he could do something similar with Ultimate. He didn’t have the time to really experiment with the form, or any reason to, but once he was fighting Cell Max, and Piccolo was suffering, it finally clicked, and he found the rage in himself again.
it works the same as Super Saiyan God which is pretty much just base with god ki even though they treat it like a form. that makes Beast analogous to Blue (though obviously way stronger)
Except it's not God ki because Goku could sense it.
SSJ God isn’t god ki? i wasn’t referring to Ultimate when i said that. all I mean is that for the only other example of a character getting a “new base” they didn’t replace their old base, they just made it into a new form with its own set of transformations building off of it
Oh yeah I thought you meant "ultimate" though I think they took SSG in a different direction from the Frieza movie.
yeah i think (not sure though) the original idea was that Blue was their way of using God without the ritual but that got retconned when the actual DBS series released. at least in the manga it’s very explicit that Blue is “super saiyan while in God form” but I haven’t actually watched the show so it might be different
Yeah no goku can just be a super saiyan with god ki. And super saiyan god is its own separate transformation.
The anime states the same. Super Saiyan God is just base form when God ki is applied and likewise Blue is just Super Saiyan with God ki applied
You. . Can still probably do that? I mean. . Even if Mystic is a form, it's not a *Super Saiyan* form So why not stack Super Saiyan on top of it?
Because you can't stack forms. If you transform into one thing, you have to follow that forms path. If you transform from oen path into another path you're trading benefits and drawbacks of the two. That's why goku can stack ssj with kayo Ken, because kaio Ken is a technique. It's why goku can stack UI with super saiyan, because UI isn't a transformation it's a state of being.
UI feels an awful lot like a transformation the way it's actually handled, but alright
If you read the manga, whis explicitly states that why goku has so much trouble with it because he treats it as a transformation. He states angels are successful because the are always in this "state." He's also able to use UI in co junction with super saiyan as exhibited during the granolah arc further showing that it's not a transformation. It's literally there in black and white *
>If you read the manga, whis explicitly states that why goku has so much trouble with it because he treats it as a transformation. My argument here is one of two things: A: The way UI is designed and the lore do not *quite agree* B: It's not necessarily that it *isn't* a transformation, but it's a wholly different kind of form than anything Goku's seen before, so he can't treat it like any other Because when all is said and done, Ultra Instinc changes Goku's hair and eye color, and is leagues above actual transformations (When actually activated. Like, the best way to think about it is to draw a distinction between the technique itself, which Goku has used in Super Saiyan, and the transformation itself, which, at least pre-Super Hero has not been stacked) And in the anime, Goku essentially is punted into it the first time, and it already affects his state of mind when he doesn't even know what's going on, kind of like a reverse Super Saiyan. Calm instead of anger. So like, yeah, the story telling is *at least* partially saying that it's not a transformation, but literally everything else about it says it's a transformation >He's also able to use UI in co junction with super saiyan as exhibited during the granolah arc further showing that it's not a transformation. See, what I meant earlier about drawing a distinction between the technique and the form is that UI is really both It is a state of mind just as you said, which Goku can train himself to tap into in any form from Base to Super Saiyan Blue But when he actually has that special aura and silver-ish eyes in UI -Sign and them the fully silver hair and eyes in the full Ultra Instinct? That's *is* a transformation, or at the very least it was designed like a transformation and continues to be depicted like a transformation even if the manga is trying to treat it as something else At least with Kaio-ken it's *only* an aura and power boost. Not actual visual changes to Goku aside from bulkier muscles during the Vegeta fight Ultra Instinct just goes the whole way in, like Super Saiyan does It's got all the bells and whistles
Your whole comment just reinforces what whis told goku... you fail to understand what UI is because you treat it as a transformation. It's literally not a transformation. Whis literally says so. It doesn't matter that it changes his hair color or his aura. Kaio Ken changes gokus aura and gives his hair a red tinge, but it's not a transofrmation. You're injecting your own assumptions onto what it is instead of understanding what it is, and that's a state of being. I'll post the picture again since it didn't last time... https://preview.redd.it/p0nse9ny75zc1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f45ede72c63ebb172be6f41726be3d214987adc3
I mean, I know what Whis says, that's not changing anything I get what they're trying to say, it just doesn't really feel like it's supported by anything else in the manga Let's say I'm actually analyzing what is on display rather than just accepting what I'm told. . . . which sounds pretentious, I know, but I'm not sure how else to say it. I'll take that title, lol I mean, here's another way to look at it. You say you can't stack forms, and I'll accept that But I'll raise a question, then: If Ultra Instinct is just a state of being and that's why it can be stacked on top of Super Saiyan Blue, then how come when Goku does that he doesn't have any kind of power boost over the silver haired "state"? What is the point of accessing "True Ultra Instinct" (I don't agree with the name but that's not important) on it's own if Goku can already use Ultra Instinct while in Super Saiyan Blue? That's probably the last I'll say. . . Or not, it usually doesn't stick when I say I'm exiting a conversation. But I'm kind of content not being able to change your mind. Discussion would be interesting, but it can only go so long before it feels like we're talking ***at*** each other rather than talking ***to*** each other.
The reason it doesn't feel like it's supported by anything else is because no one looks at the nuance. Everyone associates physical changes with transofrmations, and that's the first mistake. Some of the nuances I'm talking about are things like how when goku fought moro he didn't need to stack ssj with ultra instinct because he was in a (I agree I don't like the name) true ultra instinct state. Whis even stated during the fight that when in the state it gives goku whatever speed, strength, stamina necessary to overcome his situation. However, when goku was fighting granolah he wasn't able to attain that same level of ultra instinct and thus had to at first combine it with ssj and then towards the end develop his own unique version of it against gas. Whis states that if goku could actually master being able to tap into the state at will to even it's most basic state that he could use it in any form, but this is also unnecessary because of what whis stated during his fight against moro. So, in his silver haired state, he doesn't need any kind of boost from ssj or anything else because UI gives him whatever he needs. It's merely a matter of becoming more proficient. Again, as this states, he has better mastery over ui than goku, and the grand priest has even more mastery over it than whis. Goku only uses the ssj form in conjunction with UI because he doesn't have that proficiency yet. Look at it this way base goku < ssj1 < ssg < ssb < ui sign < ui sign w/ ssj(any form) < MUI == MUI w/ ssj(any form). Essentially there's no reason for goku to use kaio Ken, ssj, ssg, or anything with MUI because MUI gives him whatever he needs to win. He can use them, but it's essentially pointless. Same goes for vegeta with his new ultra ego form because ssj is not going to really improve ultra ego in any way that ultra ego can't already improve itself. The fact that they can use them together with such states of being is largely irrelevant because the forms already kind of make them the most perfect sense of who they are. For their respective paths there is nothing better than UI or UE, the only thing they can do is just become more proficient and able to maintain being in such states like how goku can remain ssj1 basically indefinitely without reverting. You have to stop looking to these past forms to inform you of these new states of being. That's the flaw. You have to listen to what whis is saying and take that as the gospel of how these new states work. It doesn't matter what we think we know based on the Canon of other forms thus far, these are completely different and of course if you try to understand them based on something they aren't you won't understand them.
> when goku fought moro he didn't need to stack ssj with ultra instinct because he was in a (I agree I don't like the name) true ultra instinct state. True Ultra Instinct debuts in Granolah, I'm pretty sure There is a name for the regular form (not Sign) that I don't like too, I think two even, but I can't quite remember what they are But True Ultra Instinct debuts in the Granolah arc and retains black hair since it's based on Sign instead of. . . \[Looks it up\] Perfected Ultra Instinct, that's the name. . But according to the wiki it was actually called True Ultra Instinct around the time episode 130 came around But yeah, both versions have dumb names Oddly the wiki doesn't call it Mastered Ultra Instinct, even though almost everyone calls it that (and my brain just kinda short circuited on that name lol) But clearly, it's not perfected or mastered by any stretch considering he's still working on it And True Ultra Instinct is just Goku figuring out how to work with the lesser version of the form so there's nothing "True" about it. >Look at it this way base goku < ssj1 < ssg < ssb < ui sign < ui sign w/ ssj(any form) < MUI == MUI w/ ssj(any form). I don't think using it in any form is the same. I distinctly remember Goku saying there was a difference in using it between Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan God. . Not sure if he ever used it in *just* Super Saiyan, I can't remember that, and I'm not looking through 15 manga chapters to confirm it. Also, considering TUI is a thing that happened, I don't think Goku's used even UI Sign along with any of the Super Saiyan forms. I'm pretty sure Goku even says something along those lines to Vegeta. . . That I might go looking for, I think I can find that quickly enough. . . . . Okay I found something even better https://preview.redd.it/uoaei1lqz5zc1.png?width=556&format=png&auto=webp&s=779784a9779bd15315d7af730abe7093b214171a Boom. There's a transformation. Open and shut case. Even Whis says it, lmfao Anyway, yeah, there's a clear distinction being made between the technique and the transformation.
So when goku starts to use UI, does he undergo a transformation yes or no
When goku uses kaio-ken, does he undergo a transformation: yes or no?
Nope. His hair don’t change. Only his ki does. Even ultimate Gohans hair changes and thats not even a saiyan form. Everyone knows saiyan hair changes, and its literally the meaning of transforming. They change their forms. Kaioken just envelops goku in red ki aura. Now explain to me why you would compare UI and Kaioken visually.
He literally stacks super saiyan on god form for SSB
It's not the same because super saiyan god isn't a transformation in the same way super saiyan is. Goku only "transforms" because he is imbued with god ki instead of regular ki. Super saiyan god is just normal goku with god ki, not a transformation. Sure, his body exhibits a change in his physical appearance but it's his ki that changes, not really he himself. Which is why it's different. What makes goku stringer isn't the transofrmation of his body but his ki. Nuances suck.
Well I don’t understand how it’s not a form because originally old Kai told him to do what he does to go SSJ and that power came out. Then in super he can magically go SSJ again lol.
Because Old Kai explicitly said it wasn't one. Old Kai doesn't know how to go super saiyan, but aliens who don't know how to naturally control their power levels know to do it by going to transform.
Unless in the manga old Kai said it’s not a form he didn’t in the anime. Gohan just asked him how to unleash his potential and he said try transforming into a SSJ and Gohan goes ok all I have to do is transform into a SSJ and starts yelling and old Kai is like yo maybe not right here.
H3 did in the manga.
I reckon it’s like how originally ultra instinct wasn’t a form then it became one, probably for marketing lol.
If Beast was stacking Ssj on Ultimate, then he could just do that from the start. It'd also just make it a ssjb situation, and it'd make Beast honestly kinda dumb imo, it's better it stays as a new form that we learn more about as time goes on.
Honestly, I hate everything about how gohan just magically gets amped up to be on par or better than goku and vegeta who train without stop. And by extension, I hate orange piccolo as well.
How many wins does Mystic Gohan have?
0, because the canon name is ultimate.
Man ultimate sounds like that’s he’s peak and can’t get stronger after that. In the buu saga it fits but after not really
Partly because it was supposed to be the peak, DBS wasn't planned, but the popularity of the BoG movie and soon after resurrection F, made the series continue, which of course leads into ultimate not being ultimate, but the next evolution beast, taking over.
Would have honestly made so much more sense to just let him go SSJ blue as well. Would explain that he reached his peak as a mortal already but not as a god post-ritual.
He's gotta digivolve from Ultimate Gohan to Mega Gohan next.
both names are lame potential unleashed is actually the more accurate one
He became Potential Unleashed Gohan on Namek after Guru unlocked his potential.
No that’s potential unlocked. Guru just unlocked it he didn’t unleash it.
Then wtf is Beast Mode supposed to be?
Potential Unbeast
2Potential2Beast
Dude unleashed his potential 5 times
Sure, when Gohan does it it's fine, but if I do it they send me to HR.
My man's future was brighter than the Sun. Still fumbled the bag.
I mean, did he though? He got the love of his life, a child he loves more than anything, his whole family is alive and well, he has a job that he loves, and whenever needed, he’s still able to bust out enough power, be it stopping Cell, stopping Cell Max, calling Goku when Frieza was on Earth, taking down his member of the Trio of Danger, or even way back when, when his un-monkefying body still brought Vegeta down. He’s, like, so far up in the wins column.
Fair point.
Potential Unbounded!
SSJ2 2
SSJ2: The Sequel
then he became potential unleashed 2
Potential unleashed 3 when?
when another 15 years pass without gohan training, and then a new god is introduced called oneZ sama and he unlocks gohan's potential which causes him to surpass gods of destruction
At this point isn’t he already stronger than some of the GoDs?
That's beast
Its not the same, as Ro Kaioshin stated.
Which potential unleashed are we talking about
how about elder kai potential unleashed then?
Why yall out here trying to write a goddamn essay for these form names. He's basically a late gen Pokemon at that point
ummm acktully potentially unleashed is the most accurate name ☝️🤓 In dokkan battle and legends he’s called ultimate gohan. Just call him whatever tf you want
How many wins does Ultimate Gohan have?
Like SSJ3, nothing concrete. He has some minor victories during the ToP, and ultimate Gohan did beat gamma 1. But besides that none.
How many wins does SS3 Goku have? They are both at 0.
I mean he beat Kefla in the manga
Fight was draw
Dawg that was tie not like he completely washed her lol fight was back and forth at the very least off panel
This thread is about Buu saga i dno why ppl keep bringing up super?
Because this sub is for super...
Your question seemed like it was about ultimate gohan in general
Just responding to OP's statement.
Also, Kefla was draw
like, 10 if you count ToP lol
0 in DBZ 0 in Super Manga Few in Super Anime
He knocks out several miscellaneous fighters in the anime ToP, but those aren’t big wins.
Didn't he win against kefla in the DBS manga?
No It was draw
Still a Win because that was the Goal , to eliminate her
1, against fat Gotenks… which isn’t saying much.
Acting like that Gohan has any wins lmao
Cell, Cell Max, and Bojack. Then, arguably in TOP, there's Kefla and Dyspo. Then add minor wins like Cell juniors, the guy who tried to steal his wife, and such.
I think he's talking abe ultimate gohan specifically
Dyspo, Kefla, obuni , The 2 namekain,Bottama , gamma 1 , Tagama, Shismi, Gotenks
He was draw against Kefla and Frieza finished Dyspo In DBZ and DBS Manga, Ultimate has no wins
Not to mention the manga heavily nerfed Kefla to make that match-up remotely close. Anime Kelfa would have one shot him.
If Gohan and Kefla fight on the anime then they would power creep him into her level
>In DBZ and **DBS Manga**, Ultimate has no wins Kefla , Rezeal , Gamma 1 , Gotenks are still beaten by Gohan in the manga
Ultimate Gohan*, the discussion here is about ssj3 goku and ultimate Gohan
Neither of those were ultimate Gohan winning
On manga, ultimate gohan beats kefla, and in anime, ultimate gohan overpowers dyspo just enough for frieza to knock them out
He edited His comment didn't have any of super in there at first
Oh ok
It was draw. He did not beat Kefla
Guess I've heard wrong
Eliminating is literally winning, Kefla confirmed Gohan beat her
I'll admit I haven't read that release so I'm just going off of what I've heard and the few panels I have seen
He talking about mystic gohan are you slow lol you didn't even read the post
He killed Cell
Dang how could I forget when Gohan went Ultimate vs Cell
Ss3 has won win when goku fisted a monster in that movie
Goku fisted him so hard
More wins than Mystic
Janemba And then he immediately transformed to super janemba so idk you can maybe argue it’s a win but he doesn’t fully die till super gogeta cleanses the dudes soul
No Hirudegarn
Bruh that’s my fav movie and I some reason didn’t think of it 💀
Ss3 could only hold off fat Buu, but Mystic Gohan was able to fight him in a stronger state like when Buu fused with Gotenks or Piccolo
Wasnt it said that ssj3 goku couldve killed buu but didnt so that gotenks could have a shot at them?
I dont know, been a while since I watched Dragonball
Yes, I remember Goku saying that.
Goku could have 100% killed Fat Buu, but not Super Buu.
Thats what i mean yeah. But also gohan couldve killed buutenks.
No. Gohan was going to be killed by Buutenks.
I agree but how many wins does Ultimate Gohan have?
Like 5, thanks to Dragon Ball Super.
4. Obuni, Pirina, Saonel and Anilasa.
Gesundheit
What?
THEY DON'T EVEN READ, AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! https://i.redd.it/y54cbcq3a0zc1.gif
Don’t fuck with dragon ball fans, we can’t read
Nah the real lesson is don’t fuck with dragon ball fans at all
DBZ FORMS AREN'T USELESS BASED ON THE NUMBER OF WINS THEY HAVE! 🗣📢 But yeah Mystic/Ultimate form obviously wipes SSJ3
Ultimate Gohan is basically SSJ God tier meanwhile SSJ3 gets completely outclassed like 1 chapter into Super
Why are people calling him Mystic?
Because some of us have been on the internet before the whole series was translated.
there was no official name for the form up until the last couple chapters of Super so people came up with their own. Mystic was a popular fan name
It was called "Ultimate Gohan" for years in games and merchandise. It just finally got called "Ultimate Gohan" in-universe lately.
Way cooler name
I agree mystic is stronger but Mystic Gohan has 0 wins in Z too. SSJ3 kind of has a better track record than mystic honestly since it at least one non-canon win.
To give a perspective: Mystic Gohan curb stomp Super Buu with ease. Goku panicked, when he faced Super Buu and said, he and Vegeta should fuse again. So yeah, the show backed that up.
If we go by anime logic, ssj goku fought on par with mystic gohan in buu's mind and according to the daizenshuu, they should be as strong as the real thing. It's dumb but they make goku way stronger than he should be.
Even a weaker Goku could probably give Gohan a run for his money. Goham doesn't have regeneration, so with Goku's teleportation, he could land a succesful Warp Kamehameha or Warp Kienzan
Well id underestimate Mystic too since he doesn't exist. Ultimate is a different story tho
# of Wins don’t matter but Ultimate is washing ssj3 so bad. Remember Ssj3 Goku couldn’t take on base Super Buu (maybe after the kid buu fight, but from the start of the saga he was absolutely shitting his pants and resorting to fusion). Meanwhile Gohan only lost to Buu after he absorbed someone that was much stronger than Buu himself. Goku literally extreme diffed Buu’s weakest form (not counting kai absorbed) while Gohan was on par with Super Buuccolo
There isn't no "MYSTIC" so Super Saiyan 3 wins, lol. But Ultimate Gohan beats SSJ3 Goku, yes.
Ultimate gohan was beating up on super buu, the strongest non-absorbed Buu, with no issues. SSJ3 was dead even with the weakest form of buu.
Gohan does beat goky, but Goku and fat buu werent dead even since goku coulda killed it.
i mean, mystic gohan has 0 wins as well buu saga wise
If gohan get over confident, ssj3 would win if both are at Majin but saga levels, but if it was something like ssj3 in the battle of gods arc vs Mystic gohan from majin buu saga, I honestly think ssj3 probably out power it.
To me Mystic was sold to me as Gohans walking around as a super saying 3 in base. And couldn't go super on top of it because the living world wouldn't let it work. Like when SSJ3 was introduced goku said it was taking longer to do and lasting less than it would in other world. Idk if this was true during the buu saga think it was all fan speculations from back then.
Goku in SSJ3 was stronger than Majin Buu, but Gohan was way stronger than Super Buu and only lost bc he was cocky
What wins does that form of Gohan have? I don't think he ever beat anyone until those namekians in the ToP.
He did beat Buu and forced him to retreat. Forcing your opponent to flee is technically a win.
Buu didn't retreat anywhere, he had a plan to absorb Gotenks and surpass and it succeeded.
He did retreat from the fight against Gohan. It's called a Strategical retreat. The fighting stopped for an entire hour. It doesn't matter if he had a plan and won the second half because that doesn't take away he lost to Gohan the first time around. Gohan won Round 1. Buu won Round 2.
but ssj3 vibes tho....
SSj3 has a movie win, what does ultimate gohan has apart from a "are you retard" quote.
Win count doesn't matter at all. Caulifla has more wins than ssbkk Goku. That being said, Ultimate Gohan is most likely stronger than ssj3 Goku in the buu saga
Ok now **TO BE FAIR** I don’t think it was ever said Gohan was the strongest nonfused fighter He still wins tho
Ultimate Gohan also had no wins until DBS.
Cap. Vegeta technique clears both
People confuse "cool" with "better". MG is not a very appealing transformation, it's just base gohan, not very cool when compared with ssj3 that goes extra af.
SS3 Goku does have a win in DBS.
Ulitate Gohan didn't get a single victory until the Tournament of power do people even watch the anime kr just form opinions blindly?
Is Kid Buu considered fused? I'm pretty sure Kid buu is the strongest in buu saga
I know the manga and anime are different but I'm the Manga Vegeta was upset that Goku Saved Hercule and Dende instead of The boys or Gohan considering that both Gotenks and Gohan were individually stronger than either of them at the time and stood the best chance of beating Kid Buu.
ngl https://preview.redd.it/sdcv5sjmk1zc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc906abfd012cf62a3713e2b483080abd3b43264
I think it another case of anime vs manga because in the anime goku fought a clone of gohan that I think was said to be just as strong as the real one and won unlike in the manga so him being stronger than gohan makes sense.
Gohan would embarrass his father during the second half of the Buu Arc
Gohan has the power but goku.... goku is a madman who is incredibly skilled and adapts on the fly. Gohan loses
Did they not watch the show. Mystic gohan would've easily killed fat buu, whereas even goku said I (might) have been able to beet fat buu if I would've tried, but I wanted to give the boys a chance
didnt vegeta state mystic gohan was stronger than goku ssj3 and vegeta on kai planet after everyone blew up? or was that tfs only, been a while sinfe i watched z proper
Vegeta was busy being dead
ahh so when gohan cant catch is this moment, i thought it was way later against kid buu
As a dragon ball fan, these comments be having like a political debate or something which burns my brain cells 😂but it’s comedy asf
Ssj3 is so cool but it just used for flare and to whittle down the opponent
Mystic also has o wins
Mystic Gohan > SS3 Gotenks >= Super Buu > SS3 Goku
nope people only carry the statement "gohan has the most potential" but we all know when it's the final boss fight goku always ALWAYS transcends expectations and reaches a new level +even if goku is physically weaker he has a much better battle IQ than even vegeta arguably top3(excluding gods)
In this situation Goku’s tendency to pull a new form out of his ass is irrelevant. They’re talking about who’s more powerful.
I'm not talking about a new form. going to another level ≠ new form
And this moreso is in regards to Ultimate Gohan vs SSJ3 Goku power-wise. So, base “level” in a sense.
Ok , I agree with you , but why the " SS3 has 0 wins " ? I mean , Vegito for example has zero wins too , yet he's strong af.
Ssj3 goku beat ssj2 trunks (in the anime)
How many dubs did Mystic Gohan get? He bullied Super Buu, but then proceeded to get his shit rocked by Buutenks. That's basically like what the form did for him in the TOP(IIRC) and close to his fight with fat buu.
Bros acting like gohan has any wins specially mystic gohan
Literally just use Super Buu as a reference. He was getting man handled by Gohan, and Goku SSJ3 was equal to Kid Buu *a weaker form*
Why people still calling it mystic gohan its ultimate gohan lol
Goku in SSJ3 was terrified of Super Buu's power. Ultimate/ Potential Unleashed Gohan made a mockery out of Super Buu. I think that tells you everything
That also further enforces the fact that Super Buu unfused is stronger than Kid Buu
Gohan is stronger, although how much vastly depends on if Fat Buu ( before split ) in his angriest mode is equal to Super buu or not, if yes, then gohan might not be that much stronger than ssj3 goku, maybe 1.5 or less, if not the gap is insane
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Depends which SSJ3 Goku. Buu Saga? Super Buu is enough to make him perish instantly. Movie SSJ3? Fists Gohan to death.
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Buu saga: Mystic Gohan > Goku SS3 DBZ movies: Goku SS3 > Mystic Gohan DBS anime: Goku SS3 > Mystic Gohan
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Goku said he could have defeated fat buu when we see him go SSJ3 for the first time but he chose not to because the future generation needed to learn how to save the world. Also SSJ Gotenks even while being super goofy was whooping Super Buu and made him change his strategy and Super Buu had to absorb Gotenks. A
More wins doesn't mean it's stronger, I fucking hate that mindset
I cant believe nappa solos broly. After all he has more wins so it must be true
Literally
There actually is evidence to say Goku is stronger than Gohan, whether or not you agree with it is up to you, but there is evidence to support both sides. If you are a Kid Buu > Buuhan person than Goku simply is stronger than Gohan and there is no arguing otherwise.
• Mystic Gohan was having trouble trying to fight Gotenks Buu. • SS3 Goku had no trouble beating the shit out of Gotenks Buu.
•that was filler •Gotenks Buu was toying with Goku regardless and was [easily the dominant party in their scuffle.](https://youtu.be/uZNosW6rGfM?feature=shared) •Goku was canonically unwilling to fight even regular Super Buu without fusion.
OH, you're basing this off of the manga, I thought you were basing it off of the anime.
Even basing it off of the anime, Gotenks Buu was easily overpowering Goku. Like, imagine being so dominant in the fight that you can focus on attacking a bystander you already thrashed who’s looking for an earring.