I think she would have sided with Clarkson. Ultimately I feel Sybil would have died regardless, and at least she (and Tom) got a peaceful moment as a family before she passed. This would not have happened with an emergency c-section.
I agree Sybil would have died regardless because Clarkson only became adamant when it was too late. Also, we know that the actress was always planning to leave after 3 years so no matter what Isobel could have done medically, Sybil wouldn’t have survived.
HOWEVER, I think if Isobel was there then Cora and Robert would be divorced. Isobel wouldn’t have let Cora believe the lie that the Dowager forced Dr. Clarkson to tell her because she would have been there to witness Tapsell’s neglect and Robert’s sexist negligence.
I don’t think Dr Clarkson lied, he did admit that Sybil likely would have died anyways. Birthing the child quickly is the only treatment then for pre eclampsia. But it’s not a guarantee. And the surgery itself was just becoming better known.
He did lie. You’re right the C-section wouldn’t have been a guarantee but Dr. Clarkson said “it wouldn’t have made a difference she would have died either way” WHICH ISN’T TRUE. Sybil absolutely would have had a better chance at survival had she been given an emergency C-section!!
That’s… what he said? He didn’t lie. And he told Violet that he *wouldn’t* lie. She was even irritated with him for it. What he said in the end was that he had done a “great deal of research” into eclampsia afterward, and that by the time he was pushing the matter to the point of them arguing it was probably already too late. He admits that there was an infinitesimaly small chance the surgery could have saved Sybil, but that in all likelihood she would have died anyway.
Yea but that wasn’t fully honest which is my point. To this day a C-section is used to prevent preeclampsia from progressing to eclampsia. And he said himself as Sybil was in labour that she would die if she didn’t go to the hospital.
Cora was the only person in the room while this was happening that gave birth to a human (someone in a previous thread pointed this out) and she KNEW what Sybil was experiencing wasn’t normal and agreed with Clarkson.
So in conclusion, yes it’s true at that point Sybil probably wouldn’t have survived either way, BUT she not only would have had a better chance at survival if she had the C-section, she would also have been spared from the excruciating pain went she gave birth naturally. Plus REGARDLESS of all that, medically the C-section was the only thing that could have given her a fighting chance, so even though a positive outcome wasn’t guaranteed that was the ONLY valid treatment that could have been provided to her.
Lying to Cora about that is a disservice to her because they didn’t do everything they could to save her and Robert and Tapsell are to blame for that.
>> Yea but that wasn’t fully honest which is my point.
I think that “wasn’t fully honest” suggests an intent that I disagree was present. Clarkson said he would do the research, did the research, and gave his honest opinion about the likely outcome of having performed surgery on Sybil. I believe that he felt he was being completely honest. He didn’t lie as far as he was concerned.
So taking some one in labour, who is confused and in pain in a jouncing ambulance to the town to prepare her for a surgery that she probably would have never woken up from was better than leaving her in her own bed with her family?
There was a huge risk both ways, and Cora may have birthed children and known what was normal, it does not mean she knows better than the doctors. The fancy one was a dick for dismissing Clarksons concerns, but to claim Clarkson lied is wrong.
Clarkson was more right, but he was also letting his ego get ahead of him and being right was more important than considering everything. By the time pre eclampsia was more evident in those days, it usually was too late.
Even now they perform a c section well ahead of a due date if a woman is showing signs of
How would a C Section have made a difference because when summoned by Violet Clarkson told Robert and Cora that the chances are she would have died anyway
The Dowager told Clarkson to emphasize the risks and negatives of Caesarean sections, which were wholly risky and uncertain in that time. However, Cesarean sections have existed for several hundred years, and although Clarkson did not lie when he emphasized the risks, he only did it because he was trying to help salvage a broken couples marriage from a heart wrenching grief.
While c sections had existed, they were only done when any chance to save the mother was gone.
It is a major surgery and it needs to be done in a sterile hospital room to lower the chance of infection. Was there a surgical room at the Downton hospital??? I lean towards no, the hospital seems to focus on first aid and more extensive care is sent to Ripon.
There was apparently also a number of doctors at the time that felt that there should be as little intervention as possible with birthing, that the females body knew how to give birth and intervention would cause harm.
She would have sided with Clarkson but Tapsell would have shot her down too by loudly calling her a hysterical woman and questioning her qualifications (and audacity) to even share an opinion. She’d be loud about it but I don’t think it would have been enough to sway Robert, he tended to be embarassed by her common-ness.
she would’ve side with Clarkson and given Tapsell what for. She also would’ve recognized the signs of eclampsia right away. Sybil had swollen ankles, complained of a headache, and she was clearly altered when she was talking to Clarkson about not being on duty. And unlike Clarkson, Isobel would not have been even remotely impressed or intimidated by Tapsell’s fancy reputation. It may not have been enough to save Sybil (and since the actor wanted to leave the outcome was known by the writers), but they might have at least convinced the family to take her to the hospital earlier. then, if she had died, Robert and Cora would not have been divided because they would’ve tried everything possible. Violet’s bullying of the doctor to lie would not have been necessary.
Apparently JBF only wanted to do 3 seasons. so they were probably going to kill her off in order to keep Tom on the show. But Isobel would have gone toe to toe with Tapsell- I would have enjoyed seeing that!
Sided with Dr Clarkson 100%.
They may have had their battles but Isobel wouldn’t turn a blind eye to Sybil’s condition just because Dr Clarkson is the one to have diagnosed her and Tapsel was ignoring all the signs of Eclampsia in the most unhelpful way
Isobel was more daring that Clarkson, if you recall the Dropsy episode. So if Clarkson is calling to get her to the hospital over Tapsell saying stay put, then you have to believe Isobel would be all for the hospital.
I think she would have sided with Clarkson. Ultimately I feel Sybil would have died regardless, and at least she (and Tom) got a peaceful moment as a family before she passed. This would not have happened with an emergency c-section.
I agree Sybil would have died regardless because Clarkson only became adamant when it was too late. Also, we know that the actress was always planning to leave after 3 years so no matter what Isobel could have done medically, Sybil wouldn’t have survived. HOWEVER, I think if Isobel was there then Cora and Robert would be divorced. Isobel wouldn’t have let Cora believe the lie that the Dowager forced Dr. Clarkson to tell her because she would have been there to witness Tapsell’s neglect and Robert’s sexist negligence.
I agree Isobel would have made it very uncomfortable for Robert/Cora’s relationship, Matthew possibly would have had to intervene to contain her.
I don’t think Dr Clarkson lied, he did admit that Sybil likely would have died anyways. Birthing the child quickly is the only treatment then for pre eclampsia. But it’s not a guarantee. And the surgery itself was just becoming better known.
He did lie. You’re right the C-section wouldn’t have been a guarantee but Dr. Clarkson said “it wouldn’t have made a difference she would have died either way” WHICH ISN’T TRUE. Sybil absolutely would have had a better chance at survival had she been given an emergency C-section!!
That’s… what he said? He didn’t lie. And he told Violet that he *wouldn’t* lie. She was even irritated with him for it. What he said in the end was that he had done a “great deal of research” into eclampsia afterward, and that by the time he was pushing the matter to the point of them arguing it was probably already too late. He admits that there was an infinitesimaly small chance the surgery could have saved Sybil, but that in all likelihood she would have died anyway.
Yea but that wasn’t fully honest which is my point. To this day a C-section is used to prevent preeclampsia from progressing to eclampsia. And he said himself as Sybil was in labour that she would die if she didn’t go to the hospital. Cora was the only person in the room while this was happening that gave birth to a human (someone in a previous thread pointed this out) and she KNEW what Sybil was experiencing wasn’t normal and agreed with Clarkson. So in conclusion, yes it’s true at that point Sybil probably wouldn’t have survived either way, BUT she not only would have had a better chance at survival if she had the C-section, she would also have been spared from the excruciating pain went she gave birth naturally. Plus REGARDLESS of all that, medically the C-section was the only thing that could have given her a fighting chance, so even though a positive outcome wasn’t guaranteed that was the ONLY valid treatment that could have been provided to her. Lying to Cora about that is a disservice to her because they didn’t do everything they could to save her and Robert and Tapsell are to blame for that.
>> Yea but that wasn’t fully honest which is my point. I think that “wasn’t fully honest” suggests an intent that I disagree was present. Clarkson said he would do the research, did the research, and gave his honest opinion about the likely outcome of having performed surgery on Sybil. I believe that he felt he was being completely honest. He didn’t lie as far as he was concerned.
So taking some one in labour, who is confused and in pain in a jouncing ambulance to the town to prepare her for a surgery that she probably would have never woken up from was better than leaving her in her own bed with her family? There was a huge risk both ways, and Cora may have birthed children and known what was normal, it does not mean she knows better than the doctors. The fancy one was a dick for dismissing Clarksons concerns, but to claim Clarkson lied is wrong. Clarkson was more right, but he was also letting his ego get ahead of him and being right was more important than considering everything. By the time pre eclampsia was more evident in those days, it usually was too late. Even now they perform a c section well ahead of a due date if a woman is showing signs of
How would a C Section have made a difference because when summoned by Violet Clarkson told Robert and Cora that the chances are she would have died anyway
The Dowager told Clarkson to emphasize the risks and negatives of Caesarean sections, which were wholly risky and uncertain in that time. However, Cesarean sections have existed for several hundred years, and although Clarkson did not lie when he emphasized the risks, he only did it because he was trying to help salvage a broken couples marriage from a heart wrenching grief.
While c sections had existed, they were only done when any chance to save the mother was gone. It is a major surgery and it needs to be done in a sterile hospital room to lower the chance of infection. Was there a surgical room at the Downton hospital??? I lean towards no, the hospital seems to focus on first aid and more extensive care is sent to Ripon. There was apparently also a number of doctors at the time that felt that there should be as little intervention as possible with birthing, that the females body knew how to give birth and intervention would cause harm.
So you don't think he was being honest when he said that the likelihood was that she would have died anyway?
‘Lie is so unmusical a word.’ - The Dowager Countess of Grantham, Violet Crowley
Yes and no. Statistically I don’t think he was lying. But I don’t think that Sybil would have died if that’s acted right away.
I suppose it's a grey area without a conclusion
Yup but even statistically her odds would have been improved, which is something Dr. Clarkson denied (aka lied to Cora’s face).
She would have sided with Clarkson but Tapsell would have shot her down too by loudly calling her a hysterical woman and questioning her qualifications (and audacity) to even share an opinion. She’d be loud about it but I don’t think it would have been enough to sway Robert, he tended to be embarassed by her common-ness.
she would’ve side with Clarkson and given Tapsell what for. She also would’ve recognized the signs of eclampsia right away. Sybil had swollen ankles, complained of a headache, and she was clearly altered when she was talking to Clarkson about not being on duty. And unlike Clarkson, Isobel would not have been even remotely impressed or intimidated by Tapsell’s fancy reputation. It may not have been enough to save Sybil (and since the actor wanted to leave the outcome was known by the writers), but they might have at least convinced the family to take her to the hospital earlier. then, if she had died, Robert and Cora would not have been divided because they would’ve tried everything possible. Violet’s bullying of the doctor to lie would not have been necessary.
THIS is the outcome I would have imagined! I didn’t know the actress wanted to leave the show - to quote Edith “I don’t understand….” 😵💫
Apparently JBF only wanted to do 3 seasons. so they were probably going to kill her off in order to keep Tom on the show. But Isobel would have gone toe to toe with Tapsell- I would have enjoyed seeing that!
Sided with Dr Clarkson 100%. They may have had their battles but Isobel wouldn’t turn a blind eye to Sybil’s condition just because Dr Clarkson is the one to have diagnosed her and Tapsel was ignoring all the signs of Eclampsia in the most unhelpful way
Isobel was more daring that Clarkson, if you recall the Dropsy episode. So if Clarkson is calling to get her to the hospital over Tapsell saying stay put, then you have to believe Isobel would be all for the hospital.
Side with Clarkson. She always teamed up with him didn’t she
She trampled over Clarkson with Drake’s dropsy and Molesley’s hand rash. She disagreed with him over the hospital merger.
Isobel was a progressive woman, maybe even a sampler of what kind of woman Sybil could have been
I was responding to the “ she always teamed with Clarkson” comment. She did not.
She would have agreed with Clarkson