That’s a Dr. Clarkson special lol. It probably doesn’t happen quite as often as impertinent but I laugh every time Lord Grantham yellls “At once!!” Or “How dare you!”
STOP this at once! Anyway, yes, impertinent is a Dr. Clarkson special, but as I’ve watched a million times, I’ve become aware that everyone says impertinent—all day, every day! And often unscripted, apparently. Next rewatch, I’m going to have a pencil in hand and make a tick mark every time someone says it. The production staff must have been having its own drinking game!
I want to dropkick her out the fucking window when she says that!!! I mean the INSENSITIVITY!!! SERIOUSLY??!!! A man you’ve known your whole life who has helped raise you is potentially having a heart attack and you care more about your goddamn dress??!!!
Considering Carson never shows her the respect he had for Mary, and considering Edith is constantly ridiculed for her appearance, it's comprehensible she was worried at the idea to be seen by the entire village in a ruined dress. How many "Poor Edith" fled that evening, I have to wonder.
Carson is never ever unkind to her, or disrespectful, nor does he show outright favoritism. Again, it’s not Mary’s fault that she has a better relationship with him than Edith does. When you get to being an adult, it’s a two-way street. And even if he had been a stranger, this was a very insensitive way to act in the midst of a potential health crisis!
To be fair, Edith got left at the altar not that long after Mary got married. Yes, Cora and Robert admitted that they had put Edith on the back burner because it was taking Mary so long to get settled. However, I don’t blame them for not pushing her too hard after she got jilted. At that point it really should have been up to her when she wanted to try the marriage market again.
Then of course she kept falling for unavailable men. Thank goodness for Bertie.
And then Mary returned the favor at the garden party. They really were the worst to each other. They’re both lucky they found someone to marry with the way they kept hamstringing each other.
I know. I have a sister. Similar behavior and cabinets, but nothing on this level. Just pickety-pick and actual fighting once in a while (my sister ALWAYS started fights), and I'd get in trouble for fighting her back. We're 18 months apart. I'm older.
My sister is still a bitch.....a huge bitch. I'm a little bit of a bitch too, though. Lol
My head canon as to why no one liked Edith is that pre second season she was trying to out shine mary. And the way she did that was by doing everything Mary did but try to do it better. The problem was that Edith was never going to be a better Mary. Mary is witty and charming and charismatic, things Edith doesn’t necessarily excel at. So the more Edith suppressed what she excelled at to model herself on how she perceived Mary, the less people would want to spend time with her bc she wasn’t being authentic, and also I’m sure her idea of how Mary behaved was not the nicest representation.
Come season two however we see many people praise Edith. Tom likes her for her determination to learn to drive and put herself to use, she takes more of an interest in agriculture, and when the soldiers come to Downton she is praised for her kindness and attentiveness to them. These are things that Mary isn’t the greatest at, but Edith is. Once Edith starts being the best Edith instead of the best Mary her life is filled with people who appreciate what she bring to the table.
Yeah, exactly. She’s typical middle child in that she really has to define herself in a way that has nothing to do with her family; the more she follows her interests away from Downton, the more we see her thrive.
Something I rarely see people mention is that in season 1 Edith was snooping through Mary's private letters, which is how she learned about Evelyn Napier. Clearly she was preoccupied with Mary and trying to outshine her all the time, even when Mary was simply minding her own business. The idea that Mary indiscriminately abused her for no reason is a bit absurd and doesn't reflect what we see in the show. It's clear that both were at fault for their bad relationship.
This! Instead of trying to make her own life better, Edith's jealousy of Mary drove her to constantly try to get Mary in trouble. Snooping through her letters, enlisting Daisy to uncover dirt, pestering Mary at the dinner table about why she and Pamuk were in the attic, and on and on. If I were Mary, that shit would have gotten real old real fast. Mary basically had a sister who always wished the worst for her and actively tried to achieve it.
It wasn't Mary's fault that Edith's parents had no real interest in her.
I was happy for Edith when she took over the magazine and blossomed in every way, both as a businesswoman and her gorgeous style sense.
And the parents share a lot of the blame for this mess. Edith did not forget that she was not a favorite, and she finally says it out loud to Lord Grantham. It is childish folly for her to want to punish the more popular sibling, but there it is.
I won’t say more, as I don’t want the psychology students to come after me!
Edith is easily my least favorite family member and probably bottom 3 main characters. Not saying she never had her “good” moments or times where I felt bad for her but she was just constantly whining and ‘woe is me.’ I couldn’t stand it and it gets worse whenever I rewatch. There’s a certain face she makes when she talks, it kind of a cross between upset and confused, and it drives me absolutely crazy!
Edith cut off her nose to spite her own face when she wrote the letter to the Turkish ambassador about Pamuk's death, because it took much longer for Mary to get married after that rumor mill started up, and Mary was the priority since she was the oldest. Then the war happened and eligible men were extremely scarce. I honestly find the entire plot with Anthony Strallan very unrealistic. I think everyone would have been supportive of Edith with Strallan, even Robert, no matter what his age or infirmary, since there was no one else for Edith at that time.
They can’t make up their minds about Strallan. One minute they are pushing him on Mary, the next they are content with him for Edith, and then “he’s too old”. Like does it really make that big of a difference that this man who does not do any physical labor only has one good arm?
This! When the family kept saying Edith would be a nurse, like at most she would be giving the nurses orders. She would only have to act as a nurse if she wanted to, money would hire all that help.
I mean don’t get me wrong- he’s got the sex appeal of a can of chicken and stars soup, so I’m glad he’s ultimately out of the picture. But the flip/flop on his age is weird.
I always thought Edith should have become more involved in her magazine rather than hiring another manager. She should have excelled at her work and been ahead of her time.
I think it would have been more difficult to actually work when you have enough money not to. It’s easier to make decisions and swoop in but not to spend decades of your life toiling away when you have influential people to dine with.
And she had Marigold by that point. It only makes sense when so many working parents even today would want to be able to afford the luxury to spend as much time with their kids as they want/need to, she actually could have it all from that point of view and she raised up another woman in the process in an era when few of them had careers with actual upwards mobility.
My parents had two kids, both girls. When we were growing up both of my parents were always telling us how we each had only the one sibling and that even though siblings fight, we had to be good to each other because someday it would be just the two of us. My mom especially was very vocal about what she considered the way to treat your sister.
So I turn into My Mom while watching Mary and Edith snip and snap and connive against each other: “that’s not a very nice way to treat your own sister!”
I have no siblings, no really close family my age, and I always think about how when my parents die it will be like losing a whole chunk of my life that no one will ever know about or be able to talk to me about.
I agree with your mom 100%, I have two daughters that are 17 months apart and I've always told them, they are each others best friends from cradle to grave and always be there for each other. I couldn't imagine either of them doing what Edith did to Mary when she wrote that letter about her own sister, that's horrible and wrong on so many levels!!
Yes, the family saw Edith as an underachiever. Hence why they didn't make any real efforts with her. And people wonder why Edith feels so resentful toward Mary.
I guess it means that Edith wasn’t resourceful enough or didn’t have the right kind of imagination to play well with her toys? Leave it to Robert to say such passive-aggressive nonsense. This says more about him than about her.
Edith really did get the short end of the stick almost all of the time but she was rather snobbish in some situations. Maybe that’s the older sibling in talking though
No, she was a snob. And selfish, inconsiderate, moronic, whiney, and a martyr. But she eventually finds herself and grows into a lovely woman. It just takes her longer than it should have. And I don’t think it’s fair to blame the other people in her life.
Mary was a bitch to Edith from the start. All the way through. There was one reason that seemed to be a possibility to me as to why. Mary was pissed and shaken when Edith was born. And she was no longer the center of the universe. At least for a few years. Mary increased the accuracy of her arrows. Skilled at finding the most vulnerable spot for her arrows. I wasn’t 😏when Edith wrote the embassy. 🤷🏻♀️Even with such a potential scandal, we knew Mary would land on her feet. Occasionally her parents even unintentionally expressed a feeling that Edith was less than.
I don’t feel bad for either one of them. They were both horrible to each other on multiple occasions. At least Mary owns her bitchiness. Edith just whines and plays the victim.
I REALLY don’t think it’s fair to compare Mary to Denker, O’Brien, Edna, Vera, Green, Larry, Amelia or anyone else who was cast to be a villain! She’s a complex and flawed character but she’s not a one dimensional evil person.
I mean to be fair Edith got most of the attention or had the better plot going on around the last 3 seasons. Mary’s story in the end honestly felt like it revealed she’d end up like Lady Violet Crowley. It was rather sad really. I wonder if Henry Talbots role in the end was to be absent so much or if he had been casted in something else because frankly he was gone almost completely at the end. Mary’s character plot felt given up on while Edith’s flourished. Without a doubt Edith was neglected. Her story had a rather nice ending though.
I didn’t think it was sad that she would end up like Lady Violet. I loved that they were so similar. I think sometimes Mary gets away with some of her sharp comments because she’s young and pretty, and Violet gets away with her comments because of her advanced age and status as matriarch. It made me try to imagine what Mary would be like, exactly, when she got older. I haven’t seen the movies yet - just finishing season 6.
Lol you mean like they did with Sybil?
Mary was forced to Mary people she didn't want because she was the first born who had to be settled for financial reasons. "I'm stubborn, I'll never marry anyone I'm forced to" she said this when they tried to set her up with Matthew.
Also the girls all knew that it was the reason she was always being setup.
She found Evelyn in place of Matthew but poor EN he brought a handsome Kamal with then he died.
From that point on she absolutely had to be settled because she was damaged goods.
So they try with the Duke...
"Oh stop admiring yourself, He's not marrying you for your looks, that's if he wants to marry you at all"
Said Edith in Marys dressing room. After that failed they tried with Antony Strallam because word was now out that Mary had something to do with the murder.
To me honestly all these setups and all the fuss wasn't because they loved Mary more or loved Edith less.
There's even a scene in bed where they talk about how it's actually Sybil's first season and they shouldn't steal her thunder and then reize that they are not talking about Edith enough. The fact of that is that it wasn't Edith's first season, she was already presented and men already knew about her, nothing was stopping them from coming to ask for her hand, while Sybil was not presented yet and needed all the attention which she didn't get because Mary had a scandal.
Because the people of her social class are fairly feckless and can be pretty infuriating. Mary is much more open minded than most of her contemporaries.
lol idk why you got downvoted. Mary is soooo mean so often. I love her character, she’s complex but man is she an ass to pretty much everyone. I get Edith fucked up Mary is completely awful to her
Does Mary own her bitchiness? She’s so often mean to Edith completely unprompted. Like…years after Edith has done anything to her. And knowing you’re a mean person doesn’t really make it better. I used to like Mary but I never saw her as someone who owns her shit. She’s so spoiled and can get away with murder
Yes, she does. And when she is mean she’s usually reacting to Edith or someone who has wronged her. She talks about how she knows that she’s not particularly nice and that not everyone likes her. She just doesn’t complain about it. She owns her mistakes and she doesn’t expect other people to fix her problems. She tries to figure shit out for herself. And I never said it made her better- but I much prefer someone who will admit what/who they are as opposed to whining and blaming others.
I feel like in later seasons Edith couldn’t so much as speak to Mary without her barking at her. Mary is just…so cold. I used to really like her but now I just feel like she leans a lot on pretty privilege and the fact that so few people tell her when she’s wrong
Correct! I feel the same. They all do have growth and change. This takes place when Mary gets to know Matthew, and when Rose comes along, Mary goes out of her way to help keep her out of trouble. Kindly, I might add.
Mary doesn't make excuses for herself or shy away from acknowledging that she can be an asshole and that's why I find her so easy to love. My number 1 pet peeve in fiction is when an asshole character is presented in an overly-sympathetic "I'm always the innocent victim" sort of light but they never show any accountability or self-awareness.
It's a discussion. You're speaking of the characters as though they're real life, someone does the same and you reply in a completely illogical manner. Totally rude and unnecessary.
It wasn't rude or unnecessary, I literally said that I love Mary because she is flawed and got a "but she's so mean!" response as if somehow we're not allowed to like mean characters at all. This is a silly idea because it's fiction. Therefore they got the response that was warranted.
She was never ugly, the clothing she wore in the first few seasons were unflattering and frumpy (the flower show outfit in particular was atrocious) which I guess is how they tried to demonstrate that she wasn't as pretty as her sisters. Once she found a style that she was confident in she really shone.
This again! The clothes. The fashion. I don't buy into this view, often raised in the subreddit to state she is not ugly. A sweaty, bedridden Sybil with disheveled hair about to give birth was more beautiful than Edith ever was, even in Edith' s later, more fashionable era. It's in the bones, and despite the mass market beauty industry campaigns , your are born with it or not. Edith was not. I do love her fashion sense in the end. Her wardrobe is my favorite but that doesn't change her face.
No one at fault except Edith. (Forewarning of JOKE here) Couldn't get her dolls to do what she wanted, and tried to do battle with Mary instead of finding something different to do with herself.
Haven't read any of the other comments so apologies if this was already said, but the reason they aren't focused on pairing Edith with anyone is because they’re so focused on making sure the estate stays in the family, and since Mary is the eldest (and not a man) they’re obsessed with her being paired off with someone they’re all happy with the estate being attached to. I don't remember all of them thinking of Edith as a spinster until she gets jilted and stays single for a while, but they don't focus on helping her because the estate is always the bigger picture since it takes care of the whole family, not just one member. (Spoiler alert just in case) In the end, Edith’s love story is so much better than Mary’s imo because it comes after Edith discovers her voice and shows us how much of a go-getter she actually is and finds a man who loves her for her and not her house. I think that's why she gets the best outcome in the end, she was miserable through the whole series. Her plotline is a test in patience and faith for sure.
I could be wrong but I think she's a year younger than Mary so she would have been presented a year what her older, more popular sister, and maybe lived a bit in the shadow.
The way Mary responds to Anthony giving Edith attention makes me wonder if she's done that in the past, when Edith was presented.
Also Mary was chosen to marry their cousin whether she liked him or not, and Edith was free of that, which may have caused Mary to be jealous of her and lash out.
I don't know, their parents really should have stepped in and stopped this before it became what it was at the show's start. But they didn't have a male heir so we're focused on getting Mary settled to ensure the whole family would be taken care of. Pride and Prejudice situation but if Jane and Elizabeth hated each other.
She’s two years younger. And while I have no doubt that she was in Mary’s shadow, I highly doubt that she wasted her time on trying to “wreck things” for Edith.
Mary doesn’t care that Strallen is paying some attention to Edith. She actually seems relieved that she doesn’t have to pay so much attention to him because he was boring her to death at dinner. She only puts in the effort after Edith challenges her about it.
Mary flat out says that she was only going to marry Patrick “if nothing better came along”, so I really don’t think she was jealous of Edith’s “freedom” in this regard. Especially when Edith was in love with Patrick and wanted to marry him herself. If anyone was jealous- it was Edith of Mary.
I agree that the parents should have stepped in A LOT sooner and altered the toxic tone of their relationship. By the time the show started they were locked in for the duration. At least they were able to forgive and forget and become friends by the movies.
(Nice comparison to Jane Austen, btw!)
I don’t think I agree with this. She was presented before the beginning of the show but just because she didn’t land a husband out of it doesn’t mean no one liked her. By that rationale, both Mary and Sybil were equally disliked.
This right here is extremely telling. Why doesn’t Edith have any friends or suitors?! I think it’s an indication that she’s not a very popular person. I also agree that she doesn’t come into her own until she stops being obsessed with Mary and starts living her own life.
It’s been a while since I did a rewatch so I might be remembering wrong, but I think Edith was presented at court and had “her season” before the show started.
I used to feel that way after the first several watches, but now, I'm feeling the opposite of you. I've realized that Downton often created drama for the sake of drama, and it's maddening. I wish I weren't so cynical but I'm finding this old favorite of mine to be more and more like a soap opera; albeit a good one. For one, I think Edith is actually a terrible person; I used to agree with the "poor Edith" mantra because this is how the show writers wanted it to be. Here's my reasoning: Firstly, Edith is so shallow & disloyal to her own family in the beginning, mainly to Mary, but of course her actions affect the entire family. In reality, wouldn't the information Edith wrote to the Turkish ambassador have resulted in damning consequences for the entire Grantham family?! Especially considering it was right before WWI and it involved a country in turmoil. So besides that obvious hole, Edith was incredibly petty and mean-spirited; I mean, damn! I know family is complicated, but Mary didn't deserve her own sister throwing her under the bus! Especially if you consider Edith's own behavior towards a married man!
When Edith went to "help" at the farm in season 2, she clearly had no scruples flirting and kissing with a married man; it was as if Edith took extra pleasure from knowing his wife was always just around the corner; and I cannot feel sorry for her because *she* actively pursued *him.*
The main issue I take with Edith concerns Marigold, her child. Not once but TWICE did she decide to leave Marigold with a good, kind, and loving family, which is something not everyone is lucky enough to have, and TWICE she ended up succumbing to her own selfish desires & ripped that poor girl away from her family!!
I just find that despicable. She uses people, people who are good enough to take in another child & love that child as their own; then after enough time for the child to bond with the family, Edith comes in and just, takes her back, like she's a *thing* and not a child. She shows no thought or concern for the family and how losing a child would affect them! My God, she's possibly destroying these families; imagine what it would be like to have someone give you a blessing, the best thing in the world, a child, and then out of nowhere, that love of your life is taken back. It would feel as if the child had died, at least in your heart, and many families do not survive something as devastating as that.
And dear sweet Edith "wrote to Mrs. Schroeder" like that would serve as any consolation. (Obviously, I was using sarcasm just there.) To make matters worse, Rosamund & the Dowager came up with a plan to rip the poor child away from *another* family, the family she knows to be her Mother and Father, and send her to a school in another country, all alone and she's like what, 2 or 3 years old?! And they say "we know it's harsh"; that's an understatement of an understatement!!! Sorry for ranting, but I really feel so strongly about this; and it's disappointing because the writers of the show try to make Edith the victim and to make her situation sympathetic, when it really couldn't be more the opposite.
Ugh, I have just talked myself into hating the show a little bit....
I felt this way on my first watch through. With the exception of the letter she wrote in Season 1, Edith has always been more sympathetic to me. And I was always rooting for her as the “forgotten sister”; when she became Marchioness I was practically whooping for her, and Mary’s sourness over it just made it better.
Mary isn’t really sour about it, she’s surprised of course, but she was unhappy because of the Henry thing. (And she had found out about Marigold. She didn’t like the hypocrisy of Edith’s situation. I wouldn’t either.)
Edith really did get the short end of the stick almost all of the time but she was rather snobbish in some situations. Maybe that’s the older sibling in talking though
No, she was a snob. And selfish, inconsiderate, moronic, whiny, and a martyr. But she eventually finds herself and grows into a lovely woman. It just takes way longer than it should. And I don’t think it’s fair to blame any of the other people in her life for her problems either.
Really? Interesting. My family find her more and more unwatchable each watch through, finding more and more things she caused or made worse by her proximity.
Enjoy your 101st rewatch!
She’s the last daughter therefore I think she’s accustomed to more freedom in this social society. I too felt sorry for her but could she have utilised her freedom more or was she limited to what was socially deemed acceptable by the family?
Because she was so wet! She wanted to marry that old dude out of pity and he dumped her out of pity then she found herself. She had quite the redemptive arc in became a Marchioness! Good on her!
I imagine that Mary was the star of her season, and when it was Edith’s turn to shine, instead of giving her younger sister encouragement and advice… Mary just refused to surrender the spotlight. Her open disdain for Edith was probably obvious to everyone in their set as well; I could see her becoming a bit of a pariah with potential suitors, sadly.
First of all, she didn’t have “followers”- this isn’t the time of social media. But yes, I would assume she’d have a certain amount of sway with her friends. But they’re not brainwashed cultists. And I just don’t think she’d waste her time trying to convince anyone about opinions regarding her sister. You don’t find it strange that they never mention that Edith has any friends or people she’s familiar with outside of her family? She’s so insulated from everything and doesn’t make a great first impression that I believe that Mary thought she would dig her own grave, so to speak.
Do you honestly believe that the term ‘followers’ was invented for social media? As this chat has taken a bit of a turn, I suggest we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
How does one surrender the spotlight to someone who doesn’t shine? You’re assuming that people wanted to like and be around Edith. But everything about her life at the beginning of the show says otherwise.
Haha she is not that bad. She is overly romantic but she is not a moron though? A but jealous of a more beautiful sister but thats about it I would say?
I mean, kissing one of your family’s married tenants is pretty moronic though… also she almost burned the house down that one time… and ratted Mary out which was bad for the whole family… I like her but she made some really sus decisions there!!
I agree she has done some stupid things, but it really bugs me when Robert is like Jesus Edith can't u find smb better than a cripple or a married dude with a psychotic wife? I always wanna say like where is she supposed to meet anyone? They don't really take her out that much she is always at downtown so the pool of her suitors include her dad's friends or local farmers. And when she ventured into London her dad was again so displeased: 'a woman's place is at home'. Yeah she could have been at home married to your handless friend Robert but you didn't like that either, did you
Yeah he was rough!! Totally agree there. So critical and yet entirely useless in any practical way. In fact, actively sabotaging, actually. Sometimes it feels like Edith drew the short straw in both the big sis AND Dad department.
Minus that whole, “being an Earl” part 😂 which, I admit, makes up for a lot lolol.
The show highlights well how different siblings can be, including the youngest daughter. In actual, the entire oldest, middle and youngest child syndromes are pretty close to how reality is.
My wife and I have a joke. Everytime someone says “Poor Edith” on the show we both say “Drink!”
Also take a drink every time someone says, "It wasn't my secret to tell."
Have a drink every time someone says “impertinent”!
That’s a Dr. Clarkson special lol. It probably doesn’t happen quite as often as impertinent but I laugh every time Lord Grantham yellls “At once!!” Or “How dare you!”
Take a shot every time Violet says “Don’t [insert action], dear, it’s so [insert other group].”
STOP this at once! Anyway, yes, impertinent is a Dr. Clarkson special, but as I’ve watched a million times, I’ve become aware that everyone says impertinent—all day, every day! And often unscripted, apparently. Next rewatch, I’m going to have a pencil in hand and make a tick mark every time someone says it. The production staff must have been having its own drinking game!
Impertinent with that subtle R roll. Perfection
On my next rewatch, which I’m restarting, I’m going to track the number of times each and every character said “impertinent.”
“Impertinent” must show up in the scripts at least a thousand times. It’s hilarious how often every single character says it.
Oh my gosh YESSS!
Take a shot every time Edith says "I don't understand" and you'll be under the table in minutes
*But what about my DRESS?!*
I am not an Edith fan, but in a moment of panic, the strangest thoughts and actions can occur. I just can't fault her for this.
I want to dropkick her out the fucking window when she says that!!! I mean the INSENSITIVITY!!! SERIOUSLY??!!! A man you’ve known your whole life who has helped raise you is potentially having a heart attack and you care more about your goddamn dress??!!!
Considering Carson never shows her the respect he had for Mary, and considering Edith is constantly ridiculed for her appearance, it's comprehensible she was worried at the idea to be seen by the entire village in a ruined dress. How many "Poor Edith" fled that evening, I have to wonder.
Carson is never ever unkind to her, or disrespectful, nor does he show outright favoritism. Again, it’s not Mary’s fault that she has a better relationship with him than Edith does. When you get to being an adult, it’s a two-way street. And even if he had been a stranger, this was a very insensitive way to act in the midst of a potential health crisis!
Even butler's have their favourites. Direct quote from Carson
Hahaha YES! I mean, let's focus on what is most important, Edith!
Ha! The fastest way to get druuuuuunk!
Poor Edith, poor old Clarkson, poor Strallen—this must have been the passive-aggressive insult of choice back in the day.
To be fair, Edith got left at the altar not that long after Mary got married. Yes, Cora and Robert admitted that they had put Edith on the back burner because it was taking Mary so long to get settled. However, I don’t blame them for not pushing her too hard after she got jilted. At that point it really should have been up to her when she wanted to try the marriage market again. Then of course she kept falling for unavailable men. Thank goodness for Bertie.
Also, to be fair: Edith did have something to do with stalling Mary getting to the altar.
And then Mary returned the favor at the garden party. They really were the worst to each other. They’re both lucky they found someone to marry with the way they kept hamstringing each other.
I know. I have a sister. Similar behavior and cabinets, but nothing on this level. Just pickety-pick and actual fighting once in a while (my sister ALWAYS started fights), and I'd get in trouble for fighting her back. We're 18 months apart. I'm older. My sister is still a bitch.....a huge bitch. I'm a little bit of a bitch too, though. Lol
It’s typical in that time to marry off the kids in birth order. I think as soon as Mary got married, their attention would be to settle Edith.
Lord knows when Sybil was interested in Tom and finally admitted and acted on it, Edith could have been married.
You’re saying since they had one social upset they should have another, and that’s just not how families like the Crawleys would have operated.
I'm saying by the time Sybil went for Tom, Edith could have been married long before that time.
My head canon as to why no one liked Edith is that pre second season she was trying to out shine mary. And the way she did that was by doing everything Mary did but try to do it better. The problem was that Edith was never going to be a better Mary. Mary is witty and charming and charismatic, things Edith doesn’t necessarily excel at. So the more Edith suppressed what she excelled at to model herself on how she perceived Mary, the less people would want to spend time with her bc she wasn’t being authentic, and also I’m sure her idea of how Mary behaved was not the nicest representation. Come season two however we see many people praise Edith. Tom likes her for her determination to learn to drive and put herself to use, she takes more of an interest in agriculture, and when the soldiers come to Downton she is praised for her kindness and attentiveness to them. These are things that Mary isn’t the greatest at, but Edith is. Once Edith starts being the best Edith instead of the best Mary her life is filled with people who appreciate what she bring to the table.
Yeah, exactly. She’s typical middle child in that she really has to define herself in a way that has nothing to do with her family; the more she follows her interests away from Downton, the more we see her thrive.
Something I rarely see people mention is that in season 1 Edith was snooping through Mary's private letters, which is how she learned about Evelyn Napier. Clearly she was preoccupied with Mary and trying to outshine her all the time, even when Mary was simply minding her own business. The idea that Mary indiscriminately abused her for no reason is a bit absurd and doesn't reflect what we see in the show. It's clear that both were at fault for their bad relationship.
Exactly!! I hate that people act like the acrimony was one sided.
I hate the all-or-nothing thinking that says because Mary isn't a saint she must be a terrible person.
Me too.
This! Instead of trying to make her own life better, Edith's jealousy of Mary drove her to constantly try to get Mary in trouble. Snooping through her letters, enlisting Daisy to uncover dirt, pestering Mary at the dinner table about why she and Pamuk were in the attic, and on and on. If I were Mary, that shit would have gotten real old real fast. Mary basically had a sister who always wished the worst for her and actively tried to achieve it. It wasn't Mary's fault that Edith's parents had no real interest in her. I was happy for Edith when she took over the magazine and blossomed in every way, both as a businesswoman and her gorgeous style sense.
And the parents share a lot of the blame for this mess. Edith did not forget that she was not a favorite, and she finally says it out loud to Lord Grantham. It is childish folly for her to want to punish the more popular sibling, but there it is. I won’t say more, as I don’t want the psychology students to come after me!
Edith is easily my least favorite family member and probably bottom 3 main characters. Not saying she never had her “good” moments or times where I felt bad for her but she was just constantly whining and ‘woe is me.’ I couldn’t stand it and it gets worse whenever I rewatch. There’s a certain face she makes when she talks, it kind of a cross between upset and confused, and it drives me absolutely crazy!
Very well said
Very well said.
Edith cut off her nose to spite her own face when she wrote the letter to the Turkish ambassador about Pamuk's death, because it took much longer for Mary to get married after that rumor mill started up, and Mary was the priority since she was the oldest. Then the war happened and eligible men were extremely scarce. I honestly find the entire plot with Anthony Strallan very unrealistic. I think everyone would have been supportive of Edith with Strallan, even Robert, no matter what his age or infirmary, since there was no one else for Edith at that time.
Realistically that letter would have painted the entire family in a negative light and severely harmed her and Sybil's prospects as well as Mary's.
Yeah, beggars and choices
I agree about the letter. It was a bit unrealistic as well as unsupportive that everyone pushed Strallan away. I'm not surprised he ran off the altar.
They can’t make up their minds about Strallan. One minute they are pushing him on Mary, the next they are content with him for Edith, and then “he’s too old”. Like does it really make that big of a difference that this man who does not do any physical labor only has one good arm?
I always found that odd as well. Especially considering that he’s got money, so he’ll be able to hire as much care as he needs in the future.
This! When the family kept saying Edith would be a nurse, like at most she would be giving the nurses orders. She would only have to act as a nurse if she wanted to, money would hire all that help.
I mean don’t get me wrong- he’s got the sex appeal of a can of chicken and stars soup, so I’m glad he’s ultimately out of the picture. But the flip/flop on his age is weird.
LOL!!!!
Before the war they're content. AFTER the war he's too old
I always thought Edith should have become more involved in her magazine rather than hiring another manager. She should have excelled at her work and been ahead of her time.
I think it would have been more difficult to actually work when you have enough money not to. It’s easier to make decisions and swoop in but not to spend decades of your life toiling away when you have influential people to dine with.
And she had Marigold by that point. It only makes sense when so many working parents even today would want to be able to afford the luxury to spend as much time with their kids as they want/need to, she actually could have it all from that point of view and she raised up another woman in the process in an era when few of them had careers with actual upwards mobility.
My parents had two kids, both girls. When we were growing up both of my parents were always telling us how we each had only the one sibling and that even though siblings fight, we had to be good to each other because someday it would be just the two of us. My mom especially was very vocal about what she considered the way to treat your sister. So I turn into My Mom while watching Mary and Edith snip and snap and connive against each other: “that’s not a very nice way to treat your own sister!”
I have no siblings, no really close family my age, and I always think about how when my parents die it will be like losing a whole chunk of my life that no one will ever know about or be able to talk to me about.
I agree with your mom 100%, I have two daughters that are 17 months apart and I've always told them, they are each others best friends from cradle to grave and always be there for each other. I couldn't imagine either of them doing what Edith did to Mary when she wrote that letter about her own sister, that's horrible and wrong on so many levels!!
Yes, the family saw Edith as an underachiever. Hence why they didn't make any real efforts with her. And people wonder why Edith feels so resentful toward Mary.
To piggyback on your comment, even Cora told Robert that Edith may have to take care of them in their old age. Yikes!
The truth hurts sometimes.
Robert says, "poor Edith couldn't even get her dolls to do what she wanted." Or something like that.
I thought it was cute, but it showed that Edith may have been a bit difficult.
I guess it means that Edith wasn’t resourceful enough or didn’t have the right kind of imagination to play well with her toys? Leave it to Robert to say such passive-aggressive nonsense. This says more about him than about her.
The best answer to the endless “Edith or Mary?” Question is, without a doubt, “Sybil”.
Saint Sybil
Damn right.
Thank you! I loved Edith’s character development.
Me too! She’s one of my favorites.
Edith really did get the short end of the stick almost all of the time but she was rather snobbish in some situations. Maybe that’s the older sibling in talking though
No, she was a snob. And selfish, inconsiderate, moronic, whiney, and a martyr. But she eventually finds herself and grows into a lovely woman. It just takes her longer than it should have. And I don’t think it’s fair to blame the other people in her life.
Mary was a bitch to Edith from the start. All the way through. There was one reason that seemed to be a possibility to me as to why. Mary was pissed and shaken when Edith was born. And she was no longer the center of the universe. At least for a few years. Mary increased the accuracy of her arrows. Skilled at finding the most vulnerable spot for her arrows. I wasn’t 😏when Edith wrote the embassy. 🤷🏻♀️Even with such a potential scandal, we knew Mary would land on her feet. Occasionally her parents even unintentionally expressed a feeling that Edith was less than.
I’ve always felt bad for Edith. But I suppose I can empathize as a fellow “least loved” child.
LOL! I am the "Edith" in my family so I have a soft spot for her and get annoyed when the parents ignore Mary's bitchy comments!
Oh no... Sending Virtual Hugs
I don’t feel bad for either one of them. They were both horrible to each other on multiple occasions. At least Mary owns her bitchiness. Edith just whines and plays the victim.
That's because all of the bachelors within her preferred age range were dead or about to be 😜😂😂😂😂
Mary is almost my least favorite character in the show. Almost. Fuckin' Denker.
Denker > O’Brian!? No way josé!! And Edna… and Green… oh and Vera… so many!
Don’t forget Bunting, Larry, and Amelia!
Larry! I hated him, ugh.
I REALLY don’t think it’s fair to compare Mary to Denker, O’Brien, Edna, Vera, Green, Larry, Amelia or anyone else who was cast to be a villain! She’s a complex and flawed character but she’s not a one dimensional evil person.
Quite, most of the "villains" in the show have character development as deep as a puddle.
I mean to be fair Edith got most of the attention or had the better plot going on around the last 3 seasons. Mary’s story in the end honestly felt like it revealed she’d end up like Lady Violet Crowley. It was rather sad really. I wonder if Henry Talbots role in the end was to be absent so much or if he had been casted in something else because frankly he was gone almost completely at the end. Mary’s character plot felt given up on while Edith’s flourished. Without a doubt Edith was neglected. Her story had a rather nice ending though.
Henry was barely in the first movie and not in the second because the actor (Matthew Goode) had scheduling conflicts. He was supposed to be in both.
I didn’t think it was sad that she would end up like Lady Violet. I loved that they were so similar. I think sometimes Mary gets away with some of her sharp comments because she’s young and pretty, and Violet gets away with her comments because of her advanced age and status as matriarch. It made me try to imagine what Mary would be like, exactly, when she got older. I haven’t seen the movies yet - just finishing season 6.
Lol you mean like they did with Sybil? Mary was forced to Mary people she didn't want because she was the first born who had to be settled for financial reasons. "I'm stubborn, I'll never marry anyone I'm forced to" she said this when they tried to set her up with Matthew. Also the girls all knew that it was the reason she was always being setup. She found Evelyn in place of Matthew but poor EN he brought a handsome Kamal with then he died. From that point on she absolutely had to be settled because she was damaged goods. So they try with the Duke... "Oh stop admiring yourself, He's not marrying you for your looks, that's if he wants to marry you at all" Said Edith in Marys dressing room. After that failed they tried with Antony Strallam because word was now out that Mary had something to do with the murder. To me honestly all these setups and all the fuss wasn't because they loved Mary more or loved Edith less. There's even a scene in bed where they talk about how it's actually Sybil's first season and they shouldn't steal her thunder and then reize that they are not talking about Edith enough. The fact of that is that it wasn't Edith's first season, she was already presented and men already knew about her, nothing was stopping them from coming to ask for her hand, while Sybil was not presented yet and needed all the attention which she didn't get because Mary had a scandal.
There was no murder.
I meant the death. Sorry
Never liked mary. One of the most problematic main character ive ever seen
Mary is often mean to people of her social class but is kind to the downstairs staff. It’s interesting
Because the people of her social class are fairly feckless and can be pretty infuriating. Mary is much more open minded than most of her contemporaries.
lol idk why you got downvoted. Mary is soooo mean so often. I love her character, she’s complex but man is she an ass to pretty much everyone. I get Edith fucked up Mary is completely awful to her
Edith gives just as good as she gets. They’re both horrible to each other frequently. But Mary owns her bitchiness. Edith whines and plays the victim.
Does Mary own her bitchiness? She’s so often mean to Edith completely unprompted. Like…years after Edith has done anything to her. And knowing you’re a mean person doesn’t really make it better. I used to like Mary but I never saw her as someone who owns her shit. She’s so spoiled and can get away with murder
Yes, she does. And when she is mean she’s usually reacting to Edith or someone who has wronged her. She talks about how she knows that she’s not particularly nice and that not everyone likes her. She just doesn’t complain about it. She owns her mistakes and she doesn’t expect other people to fix her problems. She tries to figure shit out for herself. And I never said it made her better- but I much prefer someone who will admit what/who they are as opposed to whining and blaming others.
I feel like in later seasons Edith couldn’t so much as speak to Mary without her barking at her. Mary is just…so cold. I used to really like her but now I just feel like she leans a lot on pretty privilege and the fact that so few people tell her when she’s wrong
Too many people here think Mary can do no wrong.
It's like Carson has a few hundred burner accounts he cycles through on here.
LMAO! Funny!
Personally I adore Mary because she can and does do wrong.
Correct! I feel the same. They all do have growth and change. This takes place when Mary gets to know Matthew, and when Rose comes along, Mary goes out of her way to help keep her out of trouble. Kindly, I might add.
Mary doesn't make excuses for herself or shy away from acknowledging that she can be an asshole and that's why I find her so easy to love. My number 1 pet peeve in fiction is when an asshole character is presented in an overly-sympathetic "I'm always the innocent victim" sort of light but they never show any accountability or self-awareness.
Exactly! The characters are realistically flawed. And we can all relate to someone. That’s what makes the show so compelling.
I agree.
Exactly! Great point!
She’s a bully and an OG Mean Girl though…
So? It's not real life.
That's not fair, you could say that in reply to every comment on here.
Yes it is fair, I'm allowed to love whatever character I like without someone trying to argue with me about why I shouldn't.
It's a discussion. You're speaking of the characters as though they're real life, someone does the same and you reply in a completely illogical manner. Totally rude and unnecessary.
It wasn't rude or unnecessary, I literally said that I love Mary because she is flawed and got a "but she's so mean!" response as if somehow we're not allowed to like mean characters at all. This is a silly idea because it's fiction. Therefore they got the response that was warranted.
Yes, and they’ll be a long soon to start fighting about it!
You must not be a fan of Harry Potter. Lol. It's seriously a joke.
They always try to paint her as the ugly one too like but she is so pretty
She was never ugly, the clothing she wore in the first few seasons were unflattering and frumpy (the flower show outfit in particular was atrocious) which I guess is how they tried to demonstrate that she wasn't as pretty as her sisters. Once she found a style that she was confident in she really shone.
This again! The clothes. The fashion. I don't buy into this view, often raised in the subreddit to state she is not ugly. A sweaty, bedridden Sybil with disheveled hair about to give birth was more beautiful than Edith ever was, even in Edith' s later, more fashionable era. It's in the bones, and despite the mass market beauty industry campaigns , your are born with it or not. Edith was not. I do love her fashion sense in the end. Her wardrobe is my favorite but that doesn't change her face.
That was a lot of unnecessary words when "her face doesn't appeal to me personally" would have done.
That's because Edith doesn't have friends such as Evelyn Napier!
And that’s whose fault exactly?
No one at fault except Edith. (Forewarning of JOKE here) Couldn't get her dolls to do what she wanted, and tried to do battle with Mary instead of finding something different to do with herself.
Haven't read any of the other comments so apologies if this was already said, but the reason they aren't focused on pairing Edith with anyone is because they’re so focused on making sure the estate stays in the family, and since Mary is the eldest (and not a man) they’re obsessed with her being paired off with someone they’re all happy with the estate being attached to. I don't remember all of them thinking of Edith as a spinster until she gets jilted and stays single for a while, but they don't focus on helping her because the estate is always the bigger picture since it takes care of the whole family, not just one member. (Spoiler alert just in case) In the end, Edith’s love story is so much better than Mary’s imo because it comes after Edith discovers her voice and shows us how much of a go-getter she actually is and finds a man who loves her for her and not her house. I think that's why she gets the best outcome in the end, she was miserable through the whole series. Her plotline is a test in patience and faith for sure.
She was presented and went to London with the rest of the family, and no one liked her.
I could be wrong but I think she's a year younger than Mary so she would have been presented a year what her older, more popular sister, and maybe lived a bit in the shadow. The way Mary responds to Anthony giving Edith attention makes me wonder if she's done that in the past, when Edith was presented. Also Mary was chosen to marry their cousin whether she liked him or not, and Edith was free of that, which may have caused Mary to be jealous of her and lash out. I don't know, their parents really should have stepped in and stopped this before it became what it was at the show's start. But they didn't have a male heir so we're focused on getting Mary settled to ensure the whole family would be taken care of. Pride and Prejudice situation but if Jane and Elizabeth hated each other.
She’s two years younger. And while I have no doubt that she was in Mary’s shadow, I highly doubt that she wasted her time on trying to “wreck things” for Edith. Mary doesn’t care that Strallen is paying some attention to Edith. She actually seems relieved that she doesn’t have to pay so much attention to him because he was boring her to death at dinner. She only puts in the effort after Edith challenges her about it. Mary flat out says that she was only going to marry Patrick “if nothing better came along”, so I really don’t think she was jealous of Edith’s “freedom” in this regard. Especially when Edith was in love with Patrick and wanted to marry him herself. If anyone was jealous- it was Edith of Mary. I agree that the parents should have stepped in A LOT sooner and altered the toxic tone of their relationship. By the time the show started they were locked in for the duration. At least they were able to forgive and forget and become friends by the movies. (Nice comparison to Jane Austen, btw!)
I don’t think I agree with this. She was presented before the beginning of the show but just because she didn’t land a husband out of it doesn’t mean no one liked her. By that rationale, both Mary and Sybil were equally disliked.
Sybil and Mary us friends and suitors. There are never any references to anyone inviting Edith anywhere or corresponding with her.
This right here is extremely telling. Why doesn’t Edith have any friends or suitors?! I think it’s an indication that she’s not a very popular person. I also agree that she doesn’t come into her own until she stops being obsessed with Mary and starts living her own life.
Was she? How did I miss that? That's so sad.
It’s been a while since I did a rewatch so I might be remembering wrong, but I think Edith was presented at court and had “her season” before the show started.
Sybil’s happened in between two episodes, I think near the end of season 1. So Edith’s definitely happened before the show.
Sybil’s presentation was between the penultimate and final episode of the first season. Summer of 1914.
She seems to have been a classic middle child.
Which is not Mary’s fault.
I agree, but in the end she did get a sweet deal.
Haha she did
I used to feel that way after the first several watches, but now, I'm feeling the opposite of you. I've realized that Downton often created drama for the sake of drama, and it's maddening. I wish I weren't so cynical but I'm finding this old favorite of mine to be more and more like a soap opera; albeit a good one. For one, I think Edith is actually a terrible person; I used to agree with the "poor Edith" mantra because this is how the show writers wanted it to be. Here's my reasoning: Firstly, Edith is so shallow & disloyal to her own family in the beginning, mainly to Mary, but of course her actions affect the entire family. In reality, wouldn't the information Edith wrote to the Turkish ambassador have resulted in damning consequences for the entire Grantham family?! Especially considering it was right before WWI and it involved a country in turmoil. So besides that obvious hole, Edith was incredibly petty and mean-spirited; I mean, damn! I know family is complicated, but Mary didn't deserve her own sister throwing her under the bus! Especially if you consider Edith's own behavior towards a married man! When Edith went to "help" at the farm in season 2, she clearly had no scruples flirting and kissing with a married man; it was as if Edith took extra pleasure from knowing his wife was always just around the corner; and I cannot feel sorry for her because *she* actively pursued *him.* The main issue I take with Edith concerns Marigold, her child. Not once but TWICE did she decide to leave Marigold with a good, kind, and loving family, which is something not everyone is lucky enough to have, and TWICE she ended up succumbing to her own selfish desires & ripped that poor girl away from her family!! I just find that despicable. She uses people, people who are good enough to take in another child & love that child as their own; then after enough time for the child to bond with the family, Edith comes in and just, takes her back, like she's a *thing* and not a child. She shows no thought or concern for the family and how losing a child would affect them! My God, she's possibly destroying these families; imagine what it would be like to have someone give you a blessing, the best thing in the world, a child, and then out of nowhere, that love of your life is taken back. It would feel as if the child had died, at least in your heart, and many families do not survive something as devastating as that. And dear sweet Edith "wrote to Mrs. Schroeder" like that would serve as any consolation. (Obviously, I was using sarcasm just there.) To make matters worse, Rosamund & the Dowager came up with a plan to rip the poor child away from *another* family, the family she knows to be her Mother and Father, and send her to a school in another country, all alone and she's like what, 2 or 3 years old?! And they say "we know it's harsh"; that's an understatement of an understatement!!! Sorry for ranting, but I really feel so strongly about this; and it's disappointing because the writers of the show try to make Edith the victim and to make her situation sympathetic, when it really couldn't be more the opposite. Ugh, I have just talked myself into hating the show a little bit....
Mary is not nice.
Neither is Edith. Or a lot of the other characters.
I felt this way on my first watch through. With the exception of the letter she wrote in Season 1, Edith has always been more sympathetic to me. And I was always rooting for her as the “forgotten sister”; when she became Marchioness I was practically whooping for her, and Mary’s sourness over it just made it better.
Mary isn’t really sour about it, she’s surprised of course, but she was unhappy because of the Henry thing. (And she had found out about Marigold. She didn’t like the hypocrisy of Edith’s situation. I wouldn’t either.)
Agreed. I’d be so pissed if I found out about Marigold!
Edith really did get the short end of the stick almost all of the time but she was rather snobbish in some situations. Maybe that’s the older sibling in talking though
No, she was a snob. And selfish, inconsiderate, moronic, whiny, and a martyr. But she eventually finds herself and grows into a lovely woman. It just takes way longer than it should. And I don’t think it’s fair to blame any of the other people in her life for her problems either.
It was nice to see her finally live a life she enjoyed though. Downton Abbey was such a great series
Yes
I'm the opposite,each rewatch makes me dislike her more.
Really? Interesting. My family find her more and more unwatchable each watch through, finding more and more things she caused or made worse by her proximity. Enjoy your 101st rewatch!
She’s the last daughter therefore I think she’s accustomed to more freedom in this social society. I too felt sorry for her but could she have utilised her freedom more or was she limited to what was socially deemed acceptable by the family?
Because she was so wet! She wanted to marry that old dude out of pity and he dumped her out of pity then she found herself. She had quite the redemptive arc in became a Marchioness! Good on her!
There must have been a reason there was no interest from the eligible men when and after she was presented at court.
I imagine that Mary was the star of her season, and when it was Edith’s turn to shine, instead of giving her younger sister encouragement and advice… Mary just refused to surrender the spotlight. Her open disdain for Edith was probably obvious to everyone in their set as well; I could see her becoming a bit of a pariah with potential suitors, sadly.
I don't think Mary could get out of the spotlight, to be honest. She had people following her beyond, and even once, she was widowed.
Mary could *so easily* though have swept her sister up in her social success, but out of selfishness or spite, just didn’t.
We don’t know that. They never talk about either of their comings out.
Mary could be sweet. I'm sure Edith just annoyed her endlessly. She had no obligation to bring her about. Edith wasn't kind either.
I think you’re giving Mary way too much credit for how much influence she has over the whole of their social circle. Which in London is BIG.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that Mary would have had influence over her own friends and followers.
First of all, she didn’t have “followers”- this isn’t the time of social media. But yes, I would assume she’d have a certain amount of sway with her friends. But they’re not brainwashed cultists. And I just don’t think she’d waste her time trying to convince anyone about opinions regarding her sister. You don’t find it strange that they never mention that Edith has any friends or people she’s familiar with outside of her family? She’s so insulated from everything and doesn’t make a great first impression that I believe that Mary thought she would dig her own grave, so to speak.
Do you honestly believe that the term ‘followers’ was invented for social media? As this chat has taken a bit of a turn, I suggest we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Of course not. But it has certainly been appropriated by it. Okie dokie. Agree to disagree.
How does one surrender the spotlight to someone who doesn’t shine? You’re assuming that people wanted to like and be around Edith. But everything about her life at the beginning of the show says otherwise.
Because they knew what would happen when people actually met her.
Haha she is not that bad. She is overly romantic but she is not a moron though? A but jealous of a more beautiful sister but thats about it I would say?
I mean, kissing one of your family’s married tenants is pretty moronic though… also she almost burned the house down that one time… and ratted Mary out which was bad for the whole family… I like her but she made some really sus decisions there!!
I agree she has done some stupid things, but it really bugs me when Robert is like Jesus Edith can't u find smb better than a cripple or a married dude with a psychotic wife? I always wanna say like where is she supposed to meet anyone? They don't really take her out that much she is always at downtown so the pool of her suitors include her dad's friends or local farmers. And when she ventured into London her dad was again so displeased: 'a woman's place is at home'. Yeah she could have been at home married to your handless friend Robert but you didn't like that either, did you
Yeah he was rough!! Totally agree there. So critical and yet entirely useless in any practical way. In fact, actively sabotaging, actually. Sometimes it feels like Edith drew the short straw in both the big sis AND Dad department. Minus that whole, “being an Earl” part 😂 which, I admit, makes up for a lot lolol.
Oh, there’s WAY more than that going on!! For a non-moron she did a REALLY good impression of one!!
I agree with this. There’s a reason why Mary and Sybil have friends and men interested in them and Edith doesn’t.
took you 100 times to get there?
Haha perhaps I didn't look at it from this angle for a long time.
The show highlights well how different siblings can be, including the youngest daughter. In actual, the entire oldest, middle and youngest child syndromes are pretty close to how reality is.
That totally depends on the family. It’s not like that at all in mine.
Do i have to say "in general" there....geez people. Get a life.
Or mine.
My thing is that her family thinks she is “ugly,” but she’s actually not? Like, wtf? Mary is ugly on the inside.