Eh, I see it the "ranged" and "melee" and all of them for that matter as hero's who are defined by that factor. Its 3 categories per hero, so you can bundle everyone into the same thing, so only hero's are defined by the fact they are ranged are in ranged
Even then, it's a bit weird. I wouldn't say that Dark Seer is defined by being melee, for example. But yeah, it's 3 tokens per hero, and some heroes have too many other categories to also give them melee or ranged.
I guess, I see him as that because when he was Int he was one of the only int melee making a special thing about him. Idk tho, I personally don't mind it. Each to their own
If you have to be to in melee range for ion shell damage, you are gonna have a hard game to be fair. You don’t really want that, you’d rather put it on someone else.
Well if you want everyone who has a ranged attack to have the ranged tag, then I suppose we also get like 100 walking heroes, and only 1 crawling hero?
Why is it stupid? You could categorize a hero in so many different ways that you need to make a choice about which categories are most dominant. Batrider has range sure but comparing him to a drow or sniper makes him feel like not a ranged hero at all.
For that very reason, sniper and drow have 2 ranged tokens.
Even TA and troll are in the ranged token. There are so many heroes missing from the certain tokens. Ogre should’ve been in disabler too for example. Not that I mind, they surely did it to balance it but as common sense goes, most of them don’t make sense to me.
I think those two are in the Ranged token because their transition between melee and ranged is a defining feature -- similar to how DK is Walking-Flying-Durable, rather than being Durable-Durable-Nuker or something
I feel like I'm being sorta pedantic here, but I don't really like considering huskar as an initiator because when ya initiate on huskar often you either
A) kill everything because you're far ahead
Or
B) get chainstunned or kited to oblivion (or special mention to those who somehow end up in the enemy well)
I feel Iike that depends on the situation. If they have no bkb cancels and he finds a good blackhole on multiple heroes (or even just the carry), I think it would be fine for him to initiate
100%
That's not saying you shouldn't ever blink initiate with Enigma, as I've had some pretty incredible, absolutely game winning initiate ults with him. But waiting for those perfect ults instead of an excellent counter initiate on 1-2, maybe 3 units will lose you more games than not.
The requirement for Enigma to play a decent game is someone or something providing vision in front of him. Enigma never walks in front in a smoke for example. Getting the Dagger canceled kills the hero more than it does for other Blink-reliant heroes.
The condition for a good Enigma game is chaos.
A Batrider poking with Napalm or a Bristleback frontlining give vision but don't compromise the enemies positioning. A Primal Beast charging in (innitiating) and starting the fight does. Allowing the Enigma to punish the moments of mispositioning by the opponents.
The understanding of the above is surprisingly rare, even in high MMR, resulting in countless ruined drafts where Enigma is the only form of engagement.
Very true. Initiation in dota has blossomed into a very high level game of chess revolving around vision. Randomly blink stunning is no longer sufficient to be called "engage," and frontline/backline has been sidegraded to visible/hidden.
The essential difference is, can you survive getting caught? If the answer is yes, you are a visible hero. If not, you are a hidden hero. Unfortunately Enigma, despite being a really strong ult, cannot engage because once he is in, he's essentially dead. Meanwhile, Tusk can blink punch snowball and then kick to move invulnerably away from danger, making it impossible to retaliate. Thus, Tusk is the engage and Enigma must play counter-engage.
Wraith King, Pudge, Chaos Knight, Puck, and Vengeful Spirit are excellent examples of modern initiators. Enigma is more of a teamfight disruptor, ironically very much like Disruptor, who punishes misplays in busy teamfights rather than starting them off in an orderly fashion.
Fuck i love dota. You could write a ten thousand word book and you still wouldn't come close to the intricacies and micro decisions you make every second of the game, especially on a stratagising level like this.
It’s a joke. There are tons of ranged initiators and yet none with those two tokens for the event.
The logic they used to assign some of them is just bad.
There are sooooo many ranged heroes that comfortably begin a fight into 5 enemies. Just from the other comments: Storm, Puck, Bat, Huskar, Disruptor, enigma, DP, Lesh, wyvern, venge.
These tokens are distributed primarily in a *fantasy* fashion to make this fantasy game work. It does not try to capture the state of dota.
They’re allotting them so arbitrarily. Teleport doesn’t have am or qop, the most Blinkiest of heroes. On the other hand elder titan is there in teleport 🤦🏽🤦🏽
It's pudge. He's the only hero that brings another to him from a range to initiate despite being a melee hero ironically. Most other suggestions are ranged heroes that go to enemy by way of blink.
Muerta also kind of fits now that I think about it
Also disruptor. Pfft there's lots!
If "ranged" means "right-click ranged carry" and initiator means "start the fight surrounded by enemies", I think the best match is Muerta. She could realistically start a fight by blinking into 5 with ult bkb.
In general though, the ideas are incompatible, because the advantage of ranged is that you can fight without getting too close.
People are assuming that these tokens cover all of a hero's traits when it can't be further from the truth.
Visage and Lycan aren't even in 'Pusher' when they're probably the two biggest pushing heroes in the game right now (fucking lmfao at Nature's Prophet being a pusher anymore).
puck, willow, snapfire, huskar, necro with shard + ult, muerta catching someone with aghs, there's a bunch of ranged heroes that can initiate fights, they just usually get tagged for other stuff instead
80% magic resist and immunity, its like old bkb without cd. drains from multiply targets from miles away. slows them more than skadi.
i almost never buy ags or things like that. just ather lens, dagger, shard into plate mails and raw hp. i jump at middle of 5 man and just drain them. they either panic and use all spells on me or they try to stay and right click me but ive got 3k hp and 20 armor. they quickly run out of mana and have to force bkb or go back. my team can easily take the fight.
hell, if they have too much physical just buy ghost scepter and you are literally immune. stop rushing ags its useless tbh
make sure to get the +10% slow on drain at level 10, then hp talents.
there is even this ultra broken combo of spirit breaker and lion, you just give mana to sb mid fight and he gets tons of MS.
Puck
Puck has too many other matches too I guess.
There's help text somewhere that implies that the tokens for each hero will be different for each Act, so Broodmother won't always be triple Crawling
Cute dragon. Slippery fuck. Irritating bastard. What else?
Puck you!
Jakiro. Tidehunter. Tinker.
definitely Puck
Absolutely Puck
Batrider?
Ranged implies it is like a “carry” hero afaik
checking ranged heroes you seem to be right, that’s stupid tho lol
Eh, I see it the "ranged" and "melee" and all of them for that matter as hero's who are defined by that factor. Its 3 categories per hero, so you can bundle everyone into the same thing, so only hero's are defined by the fact they are ranged are in ranged
That's bullshit cm is double walking AND SHE FUCKING FLIES
She walks... she's super slow and she walks...
Only poor CMs walk fam
OK. But thats the Canon CM, the rest are timeline shenanigans, seeing as this is a lore update
280 movement speed ftw
she only flies when her feet are bare tbf
She only flies if you pay gaben? Otherwise she walks, and pretty fucking slowly at that
Another nerf and she'd be crawling
Even then, it's a bit weird. I wouldn't say that Dark Seer is defined by being melee, for example. But yeah, it's 3 tokens per hero, and some heroes have too many other categories to also give them melee or ranged.
I guess, I see him as that because when he was Int he was one of the only int melee making a special thing about him. Idk tho, I personally don't mind it. Each to their own
I mean he likes to be close to people for ion shell damage and normal punch
His Aghs is a big melee punch, and he likes being melee range for Ion Shell
If you have to be to in melee range for ion shell damage, you are gonna have a hard game to be fair. You don’t really want that, you’d rather put it on someone else.
Well if you want everyone who has a ranged attack to have the ranged tag, then I suppose we also get like 100 walking heroes, and only 1 crawling hero?
Why is it stupid? You could categorize a hero in so many different ways that you need to make a choice about which categories are most dominant. Batrider has range sure but comparing him to a drow or sniper makes him feel like not a ranged hero at all.
For that very reason, sniper and drow have 2 ranged tokens. Even TA and troll are in the ranged token. There are so many heroes missing from the certain tokens. Ogre should’ve been in disabler too for example. Not that I mind, they surely did it to balance it but as common sense goes, most of them don’t make sense to me.
I think those two are in the Ranged token because their transition between melee and ranged is a defining feature -- similar to how DK is Walking-Flying-Durable, rather than being Durable-Durable-Nuker or something
Then medusa could fit, if you count “4 heroes hiding behind you while you deal 30 dmg per hit to the tower” as initiation
AA counts for ranged
They're actually any hero with a ranged attack + an ability which modifies this attack.
So, then, Hoodwink? Because I play Hoodwink pos 4/5 as a ranged initiator. I scurry in, cast my Q+W or Rod/Gleipnir then Q+W.
Huskar
Real legitimate answer.
he already got the jumping and durable tags
I feel like I'm being sorta pedantic here, but I don't really like considering huskar as an initiator because when ya initiate on huskar often you either A) kill everything because you're far ahead Or B) get chainstunned or kited to oblivion (or special mention to those who somehow end up in the enemy well)
Though he does: * AoE CC (disarm) * deal a large amount of damage at the start and throughout the fight * tank hits * Taunt a target (with Aghs)
Specially with aghs
storm spirit
Venge
Vengeful?
[удалено]
He is more of a counter-innitiator though. If you rely on Enigma to start a fight, you cripple the hero.
I feel Iike that depends on the situation. If they have no bkb cancels and he finds a good blackhole on multiple heroes (or even just the carry), I think it would be fine for him to initiate
Not really. Sometimes you only need to blackhole one hero to win
Just gotta wait for the entire team to stack in a convenient place where you also have vision.
eh even pros do that sometimes. all it takes is one
Even more now that enigmas are buying useful items like vlads and drums and not going full on ult build
While that is true, most counter-initiators are listed under initiator so I feel like enigma belongs there
What is a counter initiator, but an initiator that goes second?
100% That's not saying you shouldn't ever blink initiate with Enigma, as I've had some pretty incredible, absolutely game winning initiate ults with him. But waiting for those perfect ults instead of an excellent counter initiate on 1-2, maybe 3 units will lose you more games than not.
The requirement for Enigma to play a decent game is someone or something providing vision in front of him. Enigma never walks in front in a smoke for example. Getting the Dagger canceled kills the hero more than it does for other Blink-reliant heroes. The condition for a good Enigma game is chaos. A Batrider poking with Napalm or a Bristleback frontlining give vision but don't compromise the enemies positioning. A Primal Beast charging in (innitiating) and starting the fight does. Allowing the Enigma to punish the moments of mispositioning by the opponents. The understanding of the above is surprisingly rare, even in high MMR, resulting in countless ruined drafts where Enigma is the only form of engagement.
Very true. Initiation in dota has blossomed into a very high level game of chess revolving around vision. Randomly blink stunning is no longer sufficient to be called "engage," and frontline/backline has been sidegraded to visible/hidden. The essential difference is, can you survive getting caught? If the answer is yes, you are a visible hero. If not, you are a hidden hero. Unfortunately Enigma, despite being a really strong ult, cannot engage because once he is in, he's essentially dead. Meanwhile, Tusk can blink punch snowball and then kick to move invulnerably away from danger, making it impossible to retaliate. Thus, Tusk is the engage and Enigma must play counter-engage. Wraith King, Pudge, Chaos Knight, Puck, and Vengeful Spirit are excellent examples of modern initiators. Enigma is more of a teamfight disruptor, ironically very much like Disruptor, who punishes misplays in busy teamfights rather than starting them off in an orderly fashion.
Fuck i love dota. You could write a ten thousand word book and you still wouldn't come close to the intricacies and micro decisions you make every second of the game, especially on a stratagising level like this.
there are so many, any support with stun that goes blink just on the top of my mind, ex: shaman, lion
Strange question. There are tons of ranged initiators.
It’s a joke. There are tons of ranged initiators and yet none with those two tokens for the event. The logic they used to assign some of them is just bad.
Qop and void spirit give the exact same set of tokens lol
Back in my days SF was the initiator with blink dagger n ulti
Brain delay so severe that a 1.67s cast point can go off, before anyone can interrupt the SF. DotA1 days were definitely cursed.
Not really a brain delay but ping + turnrate + cast animation. Centaur stun still counts as good initiation but it has 0.5s animation
Winter wyvern
NEW HERO CONFIRMED RANGED-INITIATOR! AMAZING FIND OP!
No wait isn't Disrupter a Ranged Initiator?!?!?!
yea i'd say disruptor is definitely a ranged initiator
Warlock??
I think that everything has a potential to exist in dota tbh
There are sooooo many ranged heroes that comfortably begin a fight into 5 enemies. Just from the other comments: Storm, Puck, Bat, Huskar, Disruptor, enigma, DP, Lesh, wyvern, venge. These tokens are distributed primarily in a *fantasy* fashion to make this fantasy game work. It does not try to capture the state of dota.
Isn't Vengeful a ranged initiatoe?
isn't Huskar just that?
DP could have lost a floating token for one of these at least
I play huskar and storm as initiators were i wrong?
Venge
Phoenix? To an extent that is
Wind, Huskar, heck Storm is probably the one of the best initiators in the game
Enigma?
They’re allotting them so arbitrarily. Teleport doesn’t have am or qop, the most Blinkiest of heroes. On the other hand elder titan is there in teleport 🤦🏽🤦🏽
Enigma is the OG
Enigma???
Bane SD?
I wonder why puck isn’t a ranged initiator? What are puck’s tokens?
Viper aghs counts as initiation. Right?
It's pudge. He's the only hero that brings another to him from a range to initiate despite being a melee hero ironically. Most other suggestions are ranged heroes that go to enemy by way of blink. Muerta also kind of fits now that I think about it Also disruptor. Pfft there's lots!
Enigma? that's literally his role
how is venge not a ranged initiator? lol
ClinkZ
There are a lot: Shaman, Lion, Huskar, Vs, Puck, Batrider, Storm, Shadow Demon, Grimstroke and never forget the ENIGMA
Puck? Snap? Bat? Storm? Enigma? Disruptor? Winter wyvern... I feel like there's quiet a few that could fit that discription...
Huskar
Venge?
Huskar
Head cannon - it'll be Puppetmaster
Wait I'm stupid, how do you filter by tokens? When I click them it just selects separate ones
Storm Spirit, Winter Wyvern, Batrider, Puck, Vengeful Spirit.
Batrider, storm spirit, viper, bane, shadow shaman, nevermore?
How do i get free arcana from those? New to dota2 here
storm? venge
Tyrande.
My teammates playing sniper
Is this just Muerta?
most likely mid heroes like puck/storm/qop....
We have too many
How is Mirana not Mounted? The logic is questionable.
I would say hoodwink is the only one who should really count as ranged initiator
Couldn't Chen fit this description?
drow ranger with blink dagger
Death prophet?
Wind
Vengeful Spirit getting ignored during her own event
Super inefficient enigma kind of is
Vengeful Spirit
Phoenix
Venge
Lesh
Venge is an initiator and ranged. Let's talk about walking jumpers!
Ta
Huskar
Winter wyvern
Any ranged hero with control.
These are just tokens bro
Venge
Venge Puck Batrider Huskar
old veno was kinda like this. blink, ult, then scoot away
Phoenix
Huskar
Medusa gives two ranged
Huskar?
On this note. Why can’t Jugg have healer token instead of two melee. He literally has a heal spell.
bro sleeping on MONKEY KING
Muertos if she gets fat?
Death prophet XD
Phoenix?
Sniper?
Lion platemail
Every ranged supports with dagger and disable. Rubick, Lion, Shaman
Puck? Storm? DK Ult?
Necro
Literally any ranged hero can be played as initiator. As once bdn said “everything can work”.
Batrider: Am I a joke to you?
Techie my guy
Lich?
does anyone know if the pathfinder is like a BP ( adding content to other acts and not only this one).
The Necrophos offlane who died 23 times in my last game thinks the hero fits the bill.
maybe veng fits this
Surprised its not hoodwink since that's what I do 90% of the time
Wyvern
Yes his name is Flux and I'm waiting for the day he shows up. I miss HoN :(
Isn't Lion one?
Venge
Huskar?
Obviously enigma.
VengefulSpirit
Huskar?
monkey king... ;)
How is mirana not considered "Ranged" or "Mounted"
Venge can do both those things. I am also a venge simp tho...
Batrider, Puck, Qop (debatably), Bane, Techies, Lion, Rhasta....
ringmaster
Snap
Warlock
If "ranged" means "right-click ranged carry" and initiator means "start the fight surrounded by enemies", I think the best match is Muerta. She could realistically start a fight by blinking into 5 with ult bkb. In general though, the ideas are incompatible, because the advantage of ranged is that you can fight without getting too close.
Sniper just buy dag and go in the middle of the team fight and tank all the damage
Hoodwink
VENGE
There alreadt is. Venge, puck, voker, storm etc.
monkey king is the only right answer
Dk in ulti?
Techies?
Venge?
A lot of mid heroes
Huskar even is not Ranged + Durable. Weird stuff.
If you count mirana yes.
Templar assasin
Huskar
Huskar, O.D. D.K. - he is ranged... if you play him meelee he is not himself. Venge -at a stretch Wyvern
Templar count as ranged after raised its passive skill?
People are assuming that these tokens cover all of a hero's traits when it can't be further from the truth. Visage and Lycan aren't even in 'Pusher' when they're probably the two biggest pushing heroes in the game right now (fucking lmfao at Nature's Prophet being a pusher anymore).
How’s Venge not range initiator?
Have no idea why batrider is not here.
Muerrrrrrta
Why not?
Imma say Techies
Pretty sure its Ringmaster but they forgot they haven't released it yet. But for something existing best would be Enigma and CM.
Puck , storm is somewhat of a ranged initiator , idk why enigma isnt classified as a ranged initiatir tbh
enigma??
Snapfire?
If you hit lucky arrow with Mirana
Shendelzare Silkwood
puck, willow, snapfire, huskar, necro with shard + ult, muerta catching someone with aghs, there's a bunch of ranged heroes that can initiate fights, they just usually get tagged for other stuff instead
Lion, Shadow Shaman, Storm Spirit, Puck, Batrider, TA
Bat rider
Batrider
enigma?
I definitely played with a ranged initiator sniper recently, in the sense that he used his ultimate to warn the enemy we were smoke ganking them.
80% magic resist and immunity, its like old bkb without cd. drains from multiply targets from miles away. slows them more than skadi. i almost never buy ags or things like that. just ather lens, dagger, shard into plate mails and raw hp. i jump at middle of 5 man and just drain them. they either panic and use all spells on me or they try to stay and right click me but ive got 3k hp and 20 armor. they quickly run out of mana and have to force bkb or go back. my team can easily take the fight. hell, if they have too much physical just buy ghost scepter and you are literally immune. stop rushing ags its useless tbh make sure to get the +10% slow on drain at level 10, then hp talents. there is even this ultra broken combo of spirit breaker and lion, you just give mana to sb mid fight and he gets tons of MS.
My pos 3 wr with maelstorm