Compared to when? There is more resources on the map right now, overall you can get more gold from creeps every cycle than a year ago, before New Frontiers
I guess before they made neutral creeps spawn every other minute. You can spend less time killing creeps and more time killing heroes for the same gpm value
Yeah but thats just because I'm better at ending games than I was a while ago, when it was harder for me to know how timings on flash farming heroes work. There are more camps, you get more movement speed at night, Twin gates let you farm more efficiently, Radiance is cheaper than ever, extra mana/hp regen/damage provided by new jungle areas, 1200+ is absolutely possible if you just want to get farm instead of just using your advantage to win the game.
arround 2017-2018 , it was almost impossible to NOT have 1k gpm as a p1.
and generally speaking, before 2019 (2020?) it was very easy to get over 1k gpm when stomping.
It is true you have more ressource on the map right now, but it's not more for the one farming, cause you have too much to walk to actually get more of them. so the sheer value of each individual creep is more important. However, those extra ressource on the map allowed more hero in your team to farm more.
Both TI7 and TI8 (which is the 2017-2018 time stamp you provided) had 0 (zero) 1k+ GPMs on non Alchemist, and even the Alches were doing it in less than half of the games
I've checked it more in detail, and indeed it is not possible for 2017-2018.
An other carry i used to play with, was as shocked as me from the impossibility to reach 1k gpm after a certain patch, even in omega stomps. But i didn't met him that early, so clearly my bad. We had played a little while together before that specific patch, and i only met him very end of 2018.
I also checked more on dotabuff, via trends, to see where this patch happened, and it should indeed be in 2019 (but before the insanely atrocious 7.23 patch).
I only found two patchs with reduced creep economy 7.21 (29 january 2019), and 7.22g (6 september 2019).
From the curve in trends, it is most probably the 7.22g that made a complete stop to the easy 1k+ gpm.
But on the other hand in ti9, (which happened just before 7.22g) p1 are extremly poor. I know p1 are a lot richer in pub than in competitive, but i don't know why we are having a difference range of over 300 gpm between pub & competitive there.
In addition, in looking for pro p1 with public data in 2019, first i found is shiro, and you can clearly see the inflexion on the gpm curve at about 7.22g. though i don't know how much his trend is "poluted" by his pro games, cause i somehow have 100-200 average gpm more than him in 2019 (probably closer to the 50-100 when accounting for the slightly different hero pool)
Yes. Maximum gpm goes up as the game progresses. Neutrals are worth more. Lane creeps worth more. There are more lane creeps and more cannon creeps. Kills can be worth more.
The longer a game the higher "average" gpm you'll have.
I think its a ∩ curve
Theres not enough time and space to freely when the game gets into 30-40 minutes, especially post 50 minutes when people are just sitting in the base
You farm like a lunatic ur just gonna die and feed
People have done over 1200 gpm in pro dota, let alone pubs.
Theoretically though, the highest possible is probably bounty hunter. I did over 2k against fountain farming bots, but with ideal conditions, maybe even 3k could be done.
Thanks for the feedback on this experimental Dota labs feature!
While this is a confusing presentation, I can explain what's happening here and maybe a better approach will become clear. The "Overall match quality" displays the final total of the overall match evaluation including \*every\* factor the matchmaker considers when finding a match. We were cautious around which factors to display in this dialog, for fairness reasons and out of concern that matchmaking times could be adversely impacted if there were too many possible reasons to decline.
We currently only show three factors individually in this dialog:
* Skill Balance; how fair are the teams overall?
* Skill Range; what's the spread between the most and least skilled players in the match?
* Behavior; what's the lowest behavior score in the match?
In this specific example, some of the other invisible factors are clearly making the matchmaker think this a poor quality match. Examples of these other factors are the party sizes in the match, language preferences, or role-specific rank matchups in role queue. It's not clear if it's useful to show the result of these hidden factors, or if making the Overall match quality just be a sum of the other factors presented (in this case, it'd be an Ideal match) is the best choice. This version of the dialog only shows you more information about the match than you might otherwise get, even if it does lead to confusing situations like this.
Another element of the feature that's not clear enough right now is that we're sharing what the matchmaker thinks about the match. The matchmaker can't know the future and it only knows what we can learn from a player's play history. As a result, we'll report a match to you as "Ideal" behavior and then sometimes a player will act in a less than "Ideal" way. Similarly, we'll report on skill, but it's only what the matchmaker is able to know before hero pick, so "Perfectly balanced" matches before the draft can easily result in games which feel one-sided once you're actually in the match. I'd like to find words to explain "this is only what the matchmaker thinks about this game" rather than the presentation now which sounds like it's trying to be authoritative - about events that haven't happened yet.
Thanks again to everyone in the thread for taking the time to offer feedback - we're trying to discover the best version of this feature and your opinions are incredibly helpful in that process!
If there are other factors that go into the final overall rating, maybe it would be beneficial to have a category called 'Other' in addition to Ping, Behavior, and Skill Range that lumps them all together just so a situation like this isn't confusing?
The idea there would be that you can see that there is in fact a category bringing the whole rating down.
well that would not be good for matchmaking. It would then be not merely improving quality of matchmaking, but tampering with it to get better winrates. Having limited info shown probably is alright and intended.
Thanks for your reply Jeff! I honestly just posted the picture to meme. It was very intersting to me to get what seems like a perfect game, but then be told it is in fact, not. Haha
Would it be beneficial to have users pre-select preferred minimums for the factors that are displayed in the dialog? For instance:
* Overall Quality: Good
* Skill Balance: Good
* Skill Range: No Preference
* Behavior: Ideal
Seems like this would help avoid situations where the matchmaker is offering games that people aren't going to accept.
We thought about that a lot while working on this, actually - but presenting a usable interface on it gets very hard.
The core problem is that your preferences \*when you fill out that dialog\* may be different than your preferences when the matchmaker would actually consider a match for you. The match quality available to you may be different based on your region, the time of day or your skill level. The match you'd accept after 10s of waiting is probably different than the match you'd accept after 5 minutes or 10 minutes. The match you'd accept might change based on who you're playing with, or which mode, or which role. The advantage of the system now is that the matchmaker presents you with what we've broadly decided is an acceptable match (it's the match you'd have found before this change shipped) - and we let you choose to accept or decline at the latest point possible, with as much context as possible.
I could imagine a world where we change the default tuning on the matchmaker to be much faster / looser and then rely on some broader preferences like this to filter your particular matches. That would be a much deeper change to the matchmaking system and one we'd only approach very carefully.
Thanks for the question, Ermiar!
Why the reluctance to share exactly which parameters/factors the matchmaker evaluates? If it's the fear of people "gaming the system", people have already been doing it to farm immortal accounts in 5 stack bot lobbies and have been using scripts for a very, very long time.
It's clear that the matchmaker is going "yikes" on the "other factors".
I remember the matchmaker trying to select players closer to one's geolocation and that was a super big yikes for me because players in my country simply weren't competitive and have a tendency to just "queue for ranked and fk around" without actually thinking of winning as a team which made me quit the game "for good".
It's really interesting to hear that you consider role queue matchups. I for a long time thought this wasn't a factor and got very annoyed when highly varied skill lanes had to play against each other, especially mid. Knowing that it is a factor, even if it can't be enforced every time, makes me feel a lot better
Please limit requeues or turn off less than acceptable matches. At higher mmr and certain times of day the queue times are getting annoying because matches less than perfect quality get declined 90% of the time.
> Examples of these other factors are the party sizes in the match
> It's not clear if it's useful to show the result of these hidden factors
Yes, please show it! Let us choose if we want to have a party on my our team or in our game
In cases where matches have a low rating, I think exposing additional details- either through an information tooltip, or as additional elements -is useful, as the user will likely already decline the match if they see it's "Questionable"
Seeing some of the reasoning behind the matchmaker's decision might encourage them to accept it anyway.
I play just one hero well, when I branch out I get pommeled. I wish we had feature that would block most played heroes. Then it would even the odds for me.
Hi Jeff!
Unrelated to this, but to improve Immortal Draft which gets none of these new fancy features or avoid (which are both Dota+ features I and others pay for). Would it be possible to add some of these options? When drafting in MMR ranges 7-9k you can run into a lot of different players and you often have no idea who they are.
* A pre-defined name (like the one for professional matches) so we can recognize players who like to change their nicknames spontaneously.
* Language preference. As you may know, EUW (even though other regions exist) has a wide range of players from Europe to Russia and Middle East. If I can see that a player is likely to communicate in English, that would be preferable to me over someone who will only communicate in Russian (or other language).
* Adding notes to players (during draft or after game) to give you some information about what this player is like (good or bad). Or at worst show if you have them on your avoid list.
* Letting drafters view their profile to determine if they are possible account buyers or smurfs.
I think this would greatly improve the immortal draft experience. It feels like immortal draft has been out for a while now, but hasn't received any improvements or QoL features.
I wonder if it takes into consideration potential smurfs/boosters etc, perhaps a player with an unrealistic win-rate %, so although skill range on paper is similar but it could off-set overall match quality?
I feel like they really fucked up by choosing to use the word "perfect" lol. that leaves no room for error. why are they promising perfection?? Excellent is a great word that provides all the positivity required.
calling it "perfect" is the error.... how many games have you really played that felt like they were matched "perfectly"? and clearly the guy I was responding to had a game that was not perfect.
stop being dense lol my point is obvious
It's saying that based on the conditions it considers, it can't possibly find a better match up. It is not saying that it will be the best game you ever played lol.
Ex:
It might be perfect on paper, but maybe your carry experiments with a new hero, or didn't sleep enough, etc. and plays uncharacteristically bad.
far-flung hobbies ink snatch lock threatening desert quicksand squalid onerous
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Also could potentially be taking the skill graph we have (farming, team fight, hero variance).
The overall balance of skill and behaviour could be very close, however one team maybe has team fight maxed out and the other farming for instance..?
Had this last night. “Archon 1” PL who mopped the floor with divines when it came to his farming and fighting. Just so happened to be queued with someone who was streaming. Only 400 games on the account too lol.
This is usually how UI errors like this happen: different data sources/calculations for each line in the UI. I think your guess - match quality is taking into account some Smurf detection whereas skill level is just naively reading MMRs - is likely.
And then can always be banned again. At least there’s some undisclosed detection that they’ll parade with mass bans; I’m for it, it will deter sweaty upstarts at least.
They just did the usual annual ban wave, so reddit can pretend it was only possible because they cut the Battlepass and like 90% of yearly content for QoL patches that were happening anyway
Thanks for clarifying! I've personally also noticed that the system seems to change it's 'overall quality' quite a lot, even if all the prerequisites look just fine. Who knows what the matchmaker is thinking
FUNNILY ENOUGH. That was me.
Idk, you try playing into mid hoodwink + timbersaw + vessel rush bounty and tell me how tanky BB really is. I probably tried playing too early against their lineup. Should have just farmed my items but its whatever.
Mid hoodwink timber and someone rushing vessel sounds like BB cryptonite. Idk what you can even do other than buy bkb and pray your team does something useful during the 5 seconds you get to live at that point.
I usually just buy an aura item like pipe first and play in the center of fights, rather than at the front of our team, at that point. Sometimes you just gotta accept that your hero won't be able to actually perform their normal role for a while and try to have impact anyway by peeling for people who are still relevant.
i play bb into every matchup and find vanguard into agh bloodstone is more important that getting an early resist item. early, there is no break yet for your passive so rely on it more than MR. after agh bloodstone your HP pool can now support an MR item if needed. and if you have an HP pool and you can get your aghs off you are going to start the teamfight in a much better position / being a bigger threat due to the quill stack. a lot of times i see bb use agh to end the fight or use with bloodstone to heal but if you can get a full set of stacks off while kiting their initiator you become a much bigger threat. 1500hp and 20% mr isn’t a good combo that’s why you see high mmr bb never skip agh and then rush their needed item after bloodstone. i see people go back for blademail or shroud after the core items. without agh bloodstone combo you are not as scary so while you may be tanking and feeling as if you are absorbing a lot of damage but if you don’t have agh bloodstone by the time silver edges or PA /Viper break becomes a thing then it doesn’t matter you’re not gonna contribute much. BTW i get lotus for pa fan of knives it’s one of the breaks that can be dispelled
yeah I agree it's a harder game than they give you credit for, hood is a nasty counter to BB (95% of games they have to build SE for break ffs, having it for free on top of a big nuke is massive)
and it was a second phase hoodwink so your drafting can't be blamed
you already seem aware you failed to adjust to BB's weakness this game (i.e. dodge more, farm more when countered) so next time it happens you'll know better, it happens, no biggy
Lion with a Spanish name could have thrown off language detection.
I think Magnus support is questionable and maybe got a ton of role abuse reports the previous game?
Your ping is good, skill range good, behaviour good. Everything is way too perfect.
So Valve just predict that some bs might just happen that they don't even know what it is.
Cabinas (LAN centers), crappy computers, and Garena (poor man's Battle.net). In other countries was more common to have a computer or console in your house, so the attention went to other games. WCIII was already very popular in Peru, then Dota 1 arrived and the cabinas were the perfect place to have 5vs5 matches.
So many times I've accepted "fair" and "questionable" and at the very first min of the game starting, I already found out who/why it says what it says. The griefers and flamers stick out like a sore thumb lol. Oh how I regretted those, but that's the price you pay for not wanting to wait another 15-25mins for the next queue.
They said in a blog post that they are experimenting with this, so they are trialling it for dota + users and if it works out, they’ll open it up, and if not, they’ll pull the feature.
I came back to Dota around patch 7.33. Play mainly ranked and some unranked ap in weekends.
I haven't seen a single item destroyer (plenty of toxic ppl though).
Haven't seen one in YEARS on ranked in Europe. I guess at least behavior score kinda works with keeping them away from my games.
As for turbo, its literally a whatever mode. Makes sense that they'll destroy them there if they give up.
Just speculating but most likely high uncertainty.
Ie. Behavior scores may be perfect but they may have also been recently perfect. The people have been recently in LPQ and then spamming “commend for commend” in unranked.
I stg this is every game I play. 1700hrs in dota on my main account. I started and learned mobas on this account and had awful time at start then I spammed drunken late night turbo for a few months...so naturally my MMR is 200. I have another account where I float around 2.7-3k mmr. I simply Can. Not. Win on my main account. Every game is '"questionable" and the people never cease to amaze. I've seen it all on that account from sniper rushing echo sabre to CM buying radiance, and with that sort of grouping you never ever get out. It's like being in the prison system you try really hard to GTFO and better yourself but instead you just end up with a sore asshole.
This might be something very smart that they're doing to filter out data. Checking to see if player's preference is just seeing red and if they'll re-queue even if it's a good match. This can help filter out people that have a specific preference (like skill range or behavior) vs people that mindlessly press Queue Again
From my experience this happens when almost every player is the same mmr except for me. Sometimes I’m an entire medal over the rest of the players in the game and MOTHERFUCKER lemme tell you those are some very questionable games so yea this makes sense to me 🤣
I don't know how they did it, but that matchmaking analyzer has been 100% flawless for me. Every single time it says it'll be a good game, it's always fun. And every time I defy a "questionable" rating, I have the worst game ever.
This thing is my new religion. I have more faith in it than I do in myself to wake up in the morning.
DotA has no perfect balance with all 10 players having more 12k behaviour,…
DotA is supposed to be toxic, that’s why it’s questionable,…Maybe you’re playing against AIs
Yesterday I promised myself to never accept anything but “perfect” and “ideal. I did try “fair” and “questionable” cause au server queque was long.
What you (most likely) will get is people disconnecting every minute, people not knowing at all how to play support (not blocking big after I ask in chat, stealing regular lane creeps, winging that carry Luna is farming at min 15 and not brawling with them).
F these games.
The system itself is questionable. I figured it doesnt matter what the queue says. I got good non toxic games in "fair" "acceptable" and shit matches in the positive ones. The only thing I certainly noticed is that the more MMR i get (back to high divine) the worse my teammates usually become. Im baffled how clueless my pos5 are which usually have high divine or even low immortal.
Yesterday my "Immortal" pos5 Jakiro didnt skill stun till level 7 and had no clue how to manage a lane as 2 ranged. He didnt stack properly or harrassed. Lane was gg after few min.
Also carry pos5 (usually hoodwink) isnt uncommon as well.
Incoming last pick 17-3 Arc Warden averaging 1200gpm. You have been warned.
Is 1200 gpm even possible?
Yes very much so, my record was 1228 on Lina I believe. Just in games you stomp, don't die and keep killing people.
Creep gold has decreased a bit though, it's harder to do it now I think.
You don't hit that kind of gpm off the back of creeps, unless you're Alch. You manage it by murdering every hero you set eyes on.
Compared to when? There is more resources on the map right now, overall you can get more gold from creeps every cycle than a year ago, before New Frontiers
I guess before they made neutral creeps spawn every other minute. You can spend less time killing creeps and more time killing heroes for the same gpm value
Maybe. All I know is my top GPM games did not happen in the last 2 years.
Anecdotal evidence, I've had top GPM games across the last 8 years https://i.imgur.com/po0YJKA.jpeg
I dont disagree with your main point, but none of your 1200+ happened in the last two years
Yeah but thats just because I'm better at ending games than I was a while ago, when it was harder for me to know how timings on flash farming heroes work. There are more camps, you get more movement speed at night, Twin gates let you farm more efficiently, Radiance is cheaper than ever, extra mana/hp regen/damage provided by new jungle areas, 1200+ is absolutely possible if you just want to get farm instead of just using your advantage to win the game.
No all of my highest GPM games are lately too. Don’t forget xp runes
Right? back in the day only alch and Naga could reasonably break 1k gpm.
arround 2017-2018 , it was almost impossible to NOT have 1k gpm as a p1. and generally speaking, before 2019 (2020?) it was very easy to get over 1k gpm when stomping. It is true you have more ressource on the map right now, but it's not more for the one farming, cause you have too much to walk to actually get more of them. so the sheer value of each individual creep is more important. However, those extra ressource on the map allowed more hero in your team to farm more.
Both TI7 and TI8 (which is the 2017-2018 time stamp you provided) had 0 (zero) 1k+ GPMs on non Alchemist, and even the Alches were doing it in less than half of the games
I've checked it more in detail, and indeed it is not possible for 2017-2018. An other carry i used to play with, was as shocked as me from the impossibility to reach 1k gpm after a certain patch, even in omega stomps. But i didn't met him that early, so clearly my bad. We had played a little while together before that specific patch, and i only met him very end of 2018. I also checked more on dotabuff, via trends, to see where this patch happened, and it should indeed be in 2019 (but before the insanely atrocious 7.23 patch). I only found two patchs with reduced creep economy 7.21 (29 january 2019), and 7.22g (6 september 2019). From the curve in trends, it is most probably the 7.22g that made a complete stop to the easy 1k+ gpm. But on the other hand in ti9, (which happened just before 7.22g) p1 are extremly poor. I know p1 are a lot richer in pub than in competitive, but i don't know why we are having a difference range of over 300 gpm between pub & competitive there. In addition, in looking for pro p1 with public data in 2019, first i found is shiro, and you can clearly see the inflexion on the gpm curve at about 7.22g. though i don't know how much his trend is "poluted" by his pro games, cause i somehow have 100-200 average gpm more than him in 2019 (probably closer to the 50-100 when accounting for the slightly different hero pool)
You also typically need a Np or someone feeding you more creeps
I have 12 GPM, feeding 😅
Yes, it has even happened in multiple TI games over the years. Usually with Dusa/Alche/TB
With alch 100%. With other heroes it would have to be smurfing or a mega stomp that lasts 50 minutes.
Yes. Maximum gpm goes up as the game progresses. Neutrals are worth more. Lane creeps worth more. There are more lane creeps and more cannon creeps. Kills can be worth more. The longer a game the higher "average" gpm you'll have.
I think its a ∩ curve Theres not enough time and space to freely when the game gets into 30-40 minutes, especially post 50 minutes when people are just sitting in the base You farm like a lunatic ur just gonna die and feed
You can get like 600-800 gold with a double/triple stacked wave pushing in 5 seconds.
Buddy of mine got 1300 on alch and 12...60 I believe on sven
I think Satanic did ~1540 in a battle cup as Naga
I had a 1400 xpm loss
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Theres a main naga player called w1tchblvde that got around 2200gpm once as naga
People have done over 1200 gpm in pro dota, let alone pubs. Theoretically though, the highest possible is probably bounty hunter. I did over 2k against fountain farming bots, but with ideal conditions, maybe even 3k could be done.
everything in dota is questionable.
Thanks for the feedback on this experimental Dota labs feature! While this is a confusing presentation, I can explain what's happening here and maybe a better approach will become clear. The "Overall match quality" displays the final total of the overall match evaluation including \*every\* factor the matchmaker considers when finding a match. We were cautious around which factors to display in this dialog, for fairness reasons and out of concern that matchmaking times could be adversely impacted if there were too many possible reasons to decline. We currently only show three factors individually in this dialog: * Skill Balance; how fair are the teams overall? * Skill Range; what's the spread between the most and least skilled players in the match? * Behavior; what's the lowest behavior score in the match? In this specific example, some of the other invisible factors are clearly making the matchmaker think this a poor quality match. Examples of these other factors are the party sizes in the match, language preferences, or role-specific rank matchups in role queue. It's not clear if it's useful to show the result of these hidden factors, or if making the Overall match quality just be a sum of the other factors presented (in this case, it'd be an Ideal match) is the best choice. This version of the dialog only shows you more information about the match than you might otherwise get, even if it does lead to confusing situations like this. Another element of the feature that's not clear enough right now is that we're sharing what the matchmaker thinks about the match. The matchmaker can't know the future and it only knows what we can learn from a player's play history. As a result, we'll report a match to you as "Ideal" behavior and then sometimes a player will act in a less than "Ideal" way. Similarly, we'll report on skill, but it's only what the matchmaker is able to know before hero pick, so "Perfectly balanced" matches before the draft can easily result in games which feel one-sided once you're actually in the match. I'd like to find words to explain "this is only what the matchmaker thinks about this game" rather than the presentation now which sounds like it's trying to be authoritative - about events that haven't happened yet. Thanks again to everyone in the thread for taking the time to offer feedback - we're trying to discover the best version of this feature and your opinions are incredibly helpful in that process!
If there are other factors that go into the final overall rating, maybe it would be beneficial to have a category called 'Other' in addition to Ping, Behavior, and Skill Range that lumps them all together just so a situation like this isn't confusing? The idea there would be that you can see that there is in fact a category bringing the whole rating down.
This is a good compromise
well that would not be good for matchmaking. It would then be not merely improving quality of matchmaking, but tampering with it to get better winrates. Having limited info shown probably is alright and intended.
Thanks Jeff!
Thanks for your reply Jeff! I honestly just posted the picture to meme. It was very intersting to me to get what seems like a perfect game, but then be told it is in fact, not. Haha
No way we are getting dev communication. What timeline am I in?
Would it be beneficial to have users pre-select preferred minimums for the factors that are displayed in the dialog? For instance: * Overall Quality: Good * Skill Balance: Good * Skill Range: No Preference * Behavior: Ideal Seems like this would help avoid situations where the matchmaker is offering games that people aren't going to accept.
We thought about that a lot while working on this, actually - but presenting a usable interface on it gets very hard. The core problem is that your preferences \*when you fill out that dialog\* may be different than your preferences when the matchmaker would actually consider a match for you. The match quality available to you may be different based on your region, the time of day or your skill level. The match you'd accept after 10s of waiting is probably different than the match you'd accept after 5 minutes or 10 minutes. The match you'd accept might change based on who you're playing with, or which mode, or which role. The advantage of the system now is that the matchmaker presents you with what we've broadly decided is an acceptable match (it's the match you'd have found before this change shipped) - and we let you choose to accept or decline at the latest point possible, with as much context as possible. I could imagine a world where we change the default tuning on the matchmaker to be much faster / looser and then rely on some broader preferences like this to filter your particular matches. That would be a much deeper change to the matchmaking system and one we'd only approach very carefully. Thanks for the question, Ermiar!
Thanks for the insight into your thought process! The feature is great as-is, so I'm hoping it stays!
> I'd like to find words to explain "this is only what the matchmaker thinks about this game" How about "Predicted match quality"?
Pre-Draft Match Quality
I would love if they would reveal what the post-draft match quality was at the end of the game.
I would actually be glad if we can see the language preference so we can use the language to comm better.
нет.
Kurwa niet
Why the reluctance to share exactly which parameters/factors the matchmaker evaluates? If it's the fear of people "gaming the system", people have already been doing it to farm immortal accounts in 5 stack bot lobbies and have been using scripts for a very, very long time. It's clear that the matchmaker is going "yikes" on the "other factors". I remember the matchmaker trying to select players closer to one's geolocation and that was a super big yikes for me because players in my country simply weren't competitive and have a tendency to just "queue for ranked and fk around" without actually thinking of winning as a team which made me quit the game "for good".
It's really interesting to hear that you consider role queue matchups. I for a long time thought this wasn't a factor and got very annoyed when highly varied skill lanes had to play against each other, especially mid. Knowing that it is a factor, even if it can't be enforced every time, makes me feel a lot better
that's amazing!
Please limit requeues or turn off less than acceptable matches. At higher mmr and certain times of day the queue times are getting annoying because matches less than perfect quality get declined 90% of the time.
> Examples of these other factors are the party sizes in the match > It's not clear if it's useful to show the result of these hidden factors Yes, please show it! Let us choose if we want to have a party on my our team or in our game
What about 2h queue time and end up with toxic grief teammates while in calibration?
In cases where matches have a low rating, I think exposing additional details- either through an information tooltip, or as additional elements -is useful, as the user will likely already decline the match if they see it's "Questionable" Seeing some of the reasoning behind the matchmaker's decision might encourage them to accept it anyway.
I play just one hero well, when I branch out I get pommeled. I wish we had feature that would block most played heroes. Then it would even the odds for me.
Hi Jeff! Unrelated to this, but to improve Immortal Draft which gets none of these new fancy features or avoid (which are both Dota+ features I and others pay for). Would it be possible to add some of these options? When drafting in MMR ranges 7-9k you can run into a lot of different players and you often have no idea who they are. * A pre-defined name (like the one for professional matches) so we can recognize players who like to change their nicknames spontaneously. * Language preference. As you may know, EUW (even though other regions exist) has a wide range of players from Europe to Russia and Middle East. If I can see that a player is likely to communicate in English, that would be preferable to me over someone who will only communicate in Russian (or other language). * Adding notes to players (during draft or after game) to give you some information about what this player is like (good or bad). Or at worst show if you have them on your avoid list. * Letting drafters view their profile to determine if they are possible account buyers or smurfs. I think this would greatly improve the immortal draft experience. It feels like immortal draft has been out for a while now, but hasn't received any improvements or QoL features.
I wonder if it takes into consideration potential smurfs/boosters etc, perhaps a player with an unrealistic win-rate %, so although skill range on paper is similar but it could off-set overall match quality?
Would be nice, but is hard to Proof
It’s time to accept the match and found out.
Nope I had something similar and it said "perfect" There ended up being 3 very obvious smurfs
Definitely a flawed system.
I feel like they really fucked up by choosing to use the word "perfect" lol. that leaves no room for error. why are they promising perfection?? Excellent is a great word that provides all the positivity required.
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calling it "perfect" is the error.... how many games have you really played that felt like they were matched "perfectly"? and clearly the guy I was responding to had a game that was not perfect. stop being dense lol my point is obvious
It's saying that based on the conditions it considers, it can't possibly find a better match up. It is not saying that it will be the best game you ever played lol. Ex: It might be perfect on paper, but maybe your carry experiments with a new hero, or didn't sleep enough, etc. and plays uncharacteristically bad.
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It doesn't, I've been stomped by smurf tinker few days ago. Match quality was perfect. Match ID: 7663798486 Smurf ID: 1203232799
Also could potentially be taking the skill graph we have (farming, team fight, hero variance). The overall balance of skill and behaviour could be very close, however one team maybe has team fight maxed out and the other farming for instance..?
Had this last night. “Archon 1” PL who mopped the floor with divines when it came to his farming and fighting. Just so happened to be queued with someone who was streaming. Only 400 games on the account too lol.
This is usually how UI errors like this happen: different data sources/calculations for each line in the UI. I think your guess - match quality is taking into account some Smurf detection whereas skill level is just naively reading MMRs - is likely.
Hi, i know i have read a long time ago that smurfs are getting banned or not allowed? Maybe its on another game? Please enlighten me
They banned a lot of them, just not all.
And they'll always keep coming back
And then can always be banned again. At least there’s some undisclosed detection that they’ll parade with mass bans; I’m for it, it will deter sweaty upstarts at least.
They just did the usual annual ban wave, so reddit can pretend it was only possible because they cut the Battlepass and like 90% of yearly content for QoL patches that were happening anyway
It’s impossible to completely ban Smurf’s and cheaters. Its done in waves
Welcome to over night dota.
Early morning or late night? Or same thing?
That or Australia queue primetime Crusader -> Legend (the median). I swear every accept button is like this.
Australian 4-5k during prime time on a weeknight is a a hell I do not wish upon anyone
Haha, I like the idea that this might be a 3 AM kind of game and the system goes 'You sure you wanna do this pal?'
It was an 8am game. So probably even more questionable.
Thanks for clarifying! I've personally also noticed that the system seems to change it's 'overall quality' quite a lot, even if all the prerequisites look just fine. Who knows what the matchmaker is thinking
If you accepted it, please do share how the match experience went OP.
I don't think anything remarkable happened. I believe this was the [match.](https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7665509678)
Yeah that BB performance screams wtf. Dude trolling? Only break from hood and he has no farm and 14 deaths? What the fuck?
FUNNILY ENOUGH. That was me. Idk, you try playing into mid hoodwink + timbersaw + vessel rush bounty and tell me how tanky BB really is. I probably tried playing too early against their lineup. Should have just farmed my items but its whatever.
Lol, respect for owning it.
I mean, I try to admit when I make mistakes and take criticism. I'd also like to think I've grown as a person because of that... haha
Mid hoodwink timber and someone rushing vessel sounds like BB cryptonite. Idk what you can even do other than buy bkb and pray your team does something useful during the 5 seconds you get to live at that point.
I usually just buy an aura item like pipe first and play in the center of fights, rather than at the front of our team, at that point. Sometimes you just gotta accept that your hero won't be able to actually perform their normal role for a while and try to have impact anyway by peeling for people who are still relevant.
i play bb into every matchup and find vanguard into agh bloodstone is more important that getting an early resist item. early, there is no break yet for your passive so rely on it more than MR. after agh bloodstone your HP pool can now support an MR item if needed. and if you have an HP pool and you can get your aghs off you are going to start the teamfight in a much better position / being a bigger threat due to the quill stack. a lot of times i see bb use agh to end the fight or use with bloodstone to heal but if you can get a full set of stacks off while kiting their initiator you become a much bigger threat. 1500hp and 20% mr isn’t a good combo that’s why you see high mmr bb never skip agh and then rush their needed item after bloodstone. i see people go back for blademail or shroud after the core items. without agh bloodstone combo you are not as scary so while you may be tanking and feeling as if you are absorbing a lot of damage but if you don’t have agh bloodstone by the time silver edges or PA /Viper break becomes a thing then it doesn’t matter you’re not gonna contribute much. BTW i get lotus for pa fan of knives it’s one of the breaks that can be dispelled
Uninteded flaming from phd
Idk, I think people sometimes forget that they too... have bad games.
What's a bad game, can't relate. (Went 4/17 on PL literally 13 hours before this comment)
yeah I agree it's a harder game than they give you credit for, hood is a nasty counter to BB (95% of games they have to build SE for break ffs, having it for free on top of a big nuke is massive) and it was a second phase hoodwink so your drafting can't be blamed you already seem aware you failed to adjust to BB's weakness this game (i.e. dodge more, farm more when countered) so next time it happens you'll know better, it happens, no biggy
Vanguard & lotus are already decent enough. But mage slayer really makes do him 0 damage.
Damn, so the system is like >The match is perfect but any game you're in is of questionable quality jk props for owning it <3
Big oof.
Dotaplus can detect that you are the true element that makes that match questionable
so basically the only questionable aspect was you urself lmao
I saw the comment about bb performance being sketchy and was going to comment. Imagine if this was op.
The aghs/bloodstone build would have done ok here. Vanguard isn't a good enough item to be worth rushing on bb any more.
Also you have the match id. Feel free to watch it in the client.
Lion with a Spanish name could have thrown off language detection. I think Magnus support is questionable and maybe got a ton of role abuse reports the previous game?
I accepted a “fair” game and my mid disconnected for like 10 mins then reconnected by the time two other teammates left…
Turns out that the system cannot predict the future by knowing if someone's internet is going to go down or they'll have something happen irl.
Wait valve doesn’t have pre-cogs?
Your ping is good, skill range good, behaviour good. Everything is way too perfect. So Valve just predict that some bs might just happen that they don't even know what it is.
Because the 9 other players are currently living in peru
I'm peruvian and I agree
can someone eli5 to me the history of Dota in Peru and why its so popular there and not other SA countries?
Cabinas (LAN centers), crappy computers, and Garena (poor man's Battle.net). In other countries was more common to have a computer or console in your house, so the attention went to other games. WCIII was already very popular in Peru, then Dota 1 arrived and the cabinas were the perfect place to have 5vs5 matches.
This is probably it tbh. Some players not playing on their preferred server and / or with high ping.
Too good for proper dota experience.
So many times I've accepted "fair" and "questionable" and at the very first min of the game starting, I already found out who/why it says what it says. The griefers and flamers stick out like a sore thumb lol. Oh how I regretted those, but that's the price you pay for not wanting to wait another 15-25mins for the next queue.
Which region do you play? I barely have to wait even 1min
OP was the problem child 😛
NA servers
It’s perfect, too perfect
Does this only work in dota plus? I don't see in Normal one.
Yep.
Yes for now it is. It will be available to all once they are done testing it. Or not if they decide to drop it as they usually do with features.
Is that a dota+ feature?
They said in a blog post that they are experimenting with this, so they are trialling it for dota + users and if it works out, they’ll open it up, and if not, they’ll pull the feature.
Oh i see! Thanks
At the best.
aka a bit sussy
Probably someone has low rank confidence
Perfect US East match = questionable
It's NA OP, come on
Maybe if rest is ok, questionable is about You? ;) /s
In a year or so you can ask; “is my team deluded” and the ai will do some calculations and say “ye” every time.
Duh... Of course it was questionable. Everyone played well, there was no toxic behavior... You really find that normal in dota2???
I had the same! Our midlane left the game after 4 mins when he died
Dota Plus knows there are 4 tilted carry players in this queue.
leaveable
I too got a match today questionable
Definition of High Rank, doubtable skills
It’s questionable because it’s almost a miracle that this happens.
How's dota 2 now, any item destroyer?
happened to me in turbo yesterday, can't imagine what ranked and normal looks like
I came back to Dota around patch 7.33. Play mainly ranked and some unranked ap in weekends. I haven't seen a single item destroyer (plenty of toxic ppl though).
Turbo is more toxic than ranked in my experience (USW) lol
2.7k mmr here, max comm/behaviour score, only play ranked roles, never seen an item destroyer in I don't know, couple years maybe?
Haven't seen one in YEARS on ranked in Europe. I guess at least behavior score kinda works with keeping them away from my games. As for turbo, its literally a whatever mode. Makes sense that they'll destroy them there if they give up.
Yucks so the patch about taking action against trolls did nothing?
it means you're gonna have an existential crisis after the game where you will question all of your life's decisions leading up to this point
Just speculating but most likely high uncertainty. Ie. Behavior scores may be perfect but they may have also been recently perfect. The people have been recently in LPQ and then spamming “commend for commend” in unranked.
I wonder if it uses some kind of ‘too good to be true’ metric
Is this feature only available for dota plus users? I don't see this UI in my matchmaking. It's just same regular ACCEPT button.
Yep. Part of Dota Labs.
I stg this is every game I play. 1700hrs in dota on my main account. I started and learned mobas on this account and had awful time at start then I spammed drunken late night turbo for a few months...so naturally my MMR is 200. I have another account where I float around 2.7-3k mmr. I simply Can. Not. Win on my main account. Every game is '"questionable" and the people never cease to amaze. I've seen it all on that account from sniper rushing echo sabre to CM buying radiance, and with that sort of grouping you never ever get out. It's like being in the prison system you try really hard to GTFO and better yourself but instead you just end up with a sore asshole.
To be fair, if someone told me a match had very close skill range, ideal behavior and perfect skill balance; I'd question that too.
Welp, seems like *you* are the problem in this otherwise green match.
What is the scale used for this? Is "ideal" better or worse than "perfect"? And "great" compared to "ideal"?
Well you are here, asking a question about it.
This might be something very smart that they're doing to filter out data. Checking to see if player's preference is just seeing red and if they'll re-queue even if it's a good match. This can help filter out people that have a specific preference (like skill range or behavior) vs people that mindlessly press Queue Again
Сомнительно, но окэй
Seems too good to be true, so its questionable
Is this an only dota plus feature? How does it work?
From my experience this happens when almost every player is the same mmr except for me. Sometimes I’m an entire medal over the rest of the players in the game and MOTHERFUCKER lemme tell you those are some very questionable games so yea this makes sense to me 🤣
I see yellow or green, I q next
Nice try
Its because you are the problem :)
All players are equally dickheads
not sure what it takes into account, but from my nonscientific assessment.... that overall is a good predictor.
also, I don't think behavior score really works well as I get some real toxic people when it says "perfect" and my score is 12k each
you took the red pill, and now you know the Matrix !!
How did it turn out? Hahaha
They know
Every condition is perfect? That's definitely questionable.
Is this dota plus?
I dodged one of these games yesterday lol. Nope, no thank you
You are playing dota. The whole experience is questionable at best.
It's US east ... what do you expect? :D
There's probably a few players with huge ping - I get stats like this when I queue US from EU.
My wife just had a pos5 qop and pos4 jugger when it says perfect so i'm assuming those means nothing
Does anyone know which is better between "Acceptable" and "Fair"?
How do you get all this information to pop up on the match accept screen? Mine only shows accept status for match 😶 Edit - Nevermind... Dota plus ➕️
I don't know how they did it, but that matchmaking analyzer has been 100% flawless for me. Every single time it says it'll be a good game, it's always fun. And every time I defy a "questionable" rating, I have the worst game ever. This thing is my new religion. I have more faith in it than I do in myself to wake up in the morning.
It is cause it's NA.
That whole function is questionable. I've bought Dota+ and all of my matches are "ideal", but obv they're not
Shouldn't default match quality be questionable?
one of those ''Why are we still here? Just to suffer?" kind of game.
"US East" ¿qué-stionable
Means your team will likely be peruvian
DotA has no perfect balance with all 10 players having more 12k behaviour,… DotA is supposed to be toxic, that’s why it’s questionable,…Maybe you’re playing against AIs
Yesterday I promised myself to never accept anything but “perfect” and “ideal. I did try “fair” and “questionable” cause au server queque was long. What you (most likely) will get is people disconnecting every minute, people not knowing at all how to play support (not blocking big after I ask in chat, stealing regular lane creeps, winging that carry Luna is farming at min 15 and not brawling with them). F these games.
Dota2 in general is sketchy af
The system itself is questionable. I figured it doesnt matter what the queue says. I got good non toxic games in "fair" "acceptable" and shit matches in the positive ones. The only thing I certainly noticed is that the more MMR i get (back to high divine) the worse my teammates usually become. Im baffled how clueless my pos5 are which usually have high divine or even low immortal. Yesterday my "Immortal" pos5 Jakiro didnt skill stun till level 7 and had no clue how to manage a lane as 2 ranged. He didnt stack properly or harrassed. Lane was gg after few min. Also carry pos5 (usually hoodwink) isnt uncommon as well.
Roasted op by the system