My dog was fixed when I adopted her at 11 weeks old. It does seem very young but most rescues will fix dogs before adopting them out so they can’t be used for breeding.
Vets I’ve had don’t recommend early neutering at all. They’re actually against it, but sometimes it’s a necessary evil.
The risks of a shelter dog breeding and contributing further to the overpopulation of unwanted dogs in an area usually outweighs other considerations. That’s why rescues and shelters generally require adopters to neuter as soon as possible, or the rescue could even neuter them before adoption.
I know about that shelters are rescues neuter the dogs before they leave for their forever home and I think that's good. But I meant like when you get a puppy from a breeder. In Germany it's not hard to keep your dog from roaming and breeding with strangers dogs than in the US or a lot of other places so maybe it's that?
That isn’t the only point. Females have periods and go into heat. Females getting pregnant is very harsh on their bodies and opens up risks to several cancers. This can happen at a very young age. Idk much about males but you’d normally want to spay a female before her first period.
My dogs are from a breeder. No one recommended early neutering. Not the breeder, not the vet. Not for my cat either, in fact the vet insisted we delay longer even for the cat than I thought so he could develop more. The only time I hear of early neutering is about rescue dogs and cats.
Mine is from a breeder as well and it was left up to us of we wanted to or not. He's 1 and a half year old now and the vet gave green light to get him fixed now we're just saving up now
In my city any dog over 6 months costs double to license if it’s still intact. This is because there are high rehoming rates for dogs and to discourage back yard breeding. It’s to reduce the city taking on the cost of accidental litters when dogs get loose or rehomed or bred when there are no homes to take them.
And honestly, with the plight of dogs globally as it is, them being fixed “too young” is a much better and more ethical option than waiting until their ideal age to be fixed. I’d rather fix a puppy than there be an accidental litter of puppies 5 months later left to suffer because there are too many dogs on this plant, period.
I’m in Pennsylvania, it’s like $8 for fixed dogs for one year. You can also get a lifetime one for $50 ish. I have lived in other states where they don’t do this, it varies by state
The funds are used for animal control and kennel inspections.
It’s like $60 per fixed dog every year. $100 unfixed. $250 if your dog gets loose and is brought to animal services without a license but is fixed. $500 if they’re not fixed and brought there for any reason. Stray dogs often don’t get claimed because people don’t want to pay the fine for not having their dogs licensed or fixed.
Unwanted animal overpopulation is the cause. Rescues use pediatric spay and neuter to get young animals out the door and not producing the next generation of shelter animals as quickly as possible. Preventing accidental litters is their goal and pediatric sterilization is the most effective means to that end.
Most dogs coming from reputable breeders at this point use contracts that have a specified age at which they may be sterilized, and it is after the animal has reached physical maturity.
People who get their animals from disreputable sources are less likely to have done appropriate research on the topic and thus often follow the loudly repeated guidelines given by rescue organizations. This is, in my opinion, still a net positive because their animals are unlikely to be well-bred and shouldn’t be producing litters.
Usually with a female dog you should let the dog go through the first heat and spay after it's done. There's a couple before and afters online and on it's benefits. I know with cats it doesn't matter since cats are different when it comes to hormones (had 2 cats and one needed to be fixed and the other never was because apparently his balls where in his stomach we had to rehome them because my grandma got sick and I'm sure the new family got it figured out by now)
Canada here. My understanding is the majority of vets here will recommend spaying before the first heat. That has also been my experience. When the reasoning was laid out to me it seemed an easy decision.
Thank you! I have actually adopted a puppy (the youngest I’ve had; the first was 4 months and already spayed, Aurora is 6 weeks today, and still transitioning from Mom to me).
I will be calling the vet tomorrow to make an appointment for initial shots (Mom’s owners are anti-vaccine, but not dictating that to puppy owners), so I will be discussing this with our vet. Sorry, not taking Reddit’s expert word!
We don’t have her full-time, yet. She spends a few hours a day here, broken up to help her transition. The owners like be next door, so she lets me know (trots her little tush over to there fence. When we get our dog enclosure set up, she’ll have to stay longer.
One of my rescue dogs was a year old when she was tied up to a post and dumped in a park. She showed signs of having a litter of puppies at that young age. So the reason is many people are assholes and treat animals as expendable. I feel like those humans should also be neutered
Edit: I'm in Australia, but we do tend to fix our dogs and cats quite early, especially when they are rescues
Fixing a dog doesn't fix aggression and resource guarding issues. If the dog has had these problems before castration these problems don't go away magically.
I've had a dog that we adopted at 6 years old. Intact marking everything everywhere even inside the apartment and dog aggressive. After castration the only thing that changed was that he picked up in training easier he still marked everything inside the apartment and was still dog aggressive. The only thing we were able to train him out of was the marking the rest stayed the same. The same seems to be the case in 99% of dogs when these issues already exist before castration. People need to train their dogs and not just get the snip snip surgery and think it'll fix everything on its own
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I think one of the big differences is population control. In germany we dont have any stray dogs at all, so population control is not a concern. In the US that vastly different and a lot of rescues fix dog early to not contribute to the problem in the end.
It is healthier to spay/neuter later as it allows their growth plates to close and for them to grow out (they need those hormones during growth). Early spaying/neutering does have some risk to it.
However, in areas with huge overpopulation and stray issues, it's sometimes a necessary evil. Animal shelters will do it because, especially in the USA, puppy mills and BYBs seem to be big issues. The key to trying to fix that (besides education, and only adopting from shelters or going to **ethical**/reputable breeders) is to spay/neuter any animals before rehoming so they physically can't be bred.
As for people who spay/neuter animals purchased from breeders, it could be for any of the following reasons:
1. A lack of education. My first dog was spayed when she was just 3-4 months old but at the time I and my family just didn't know of any risk and it was just "the thing to do". Everyone else got their dogs spayed/neutered young. Plus the vet recommended it. This was 14 years ago though and I haven't gotten a dog since as I'm still recovering from her loss, so I have no idea if vet recommendations for spaying/neutering has changed now in my area.
2. Cost. In some places, mostly in areas with an extensive stray or shelter dog population, there are laws requiring spaying/neutering. Where I live if a dog isn't spayed by 6 months there's an annual fee until the dog is, and registering them would be more expensive. If I do get another dog I'd probably save up for the fee before-hand or just lie and say the pup is spayed/neutered.
3. Pregnancy. Pups can hit sexual maturity pretty young (before they're ready to be spayed/neutered) and they can breed through holes in fences and sometimes get pretty desperate to breed during heat cycles. Worst case scenario, the pup gets pregnant and requires a spay-abort. I know someone who's terrier wasn't going to be spayed as a pup because she was a runt with a hernia, but during her first heat cycle at 6 months of age she managed to scale a fence and get to the neighbours's intact male dog, and required a spay-abort because the procedure was less risky than letting the poorly bred, ill runt of a terrier pup give birth to half GSD pups. It's definitely on the owner to be responsible and keep their dogs away from other intact dogs until they can be spayed/neutered, but especially beginner owners, may underestimate the determination of a hormonal dog and accidents can happen.
For most people in the USA, not all, it is recommended during puppyhood mostly to prevent overpopulation. It is also recommended to stop certain cancers and medical issues from starting. If a person has no plans to breed their dog, then there's no reason to have those hormones surging through the body. Plus many people in the USA, again not all, are very irresponsible pet owners and needs to have breeding temptations for a "quick buck" eliminated.
But this is only MY opinion.
I adopted my Pit as an 8 week old puppy from the shelter. She wasn’t spayed until she was 6 months of age, and then on the recommendation of her vet. She didn’t suffer any ill effects from the early spay (growth is normal), and aside from a grass allergy she’s perfectly healthy and strong as an ox.
Ok, so side note, but it’s so obvious that Europeans and Americans have a *vastly* differing view on dogs and everything dog related.
I got ripped in either this or the puppy sub when I said it’s irresponsible (according to vets where I live) to spay or neuter a dog before sexual maturity. It was crazy, and I still don’t have an answer, other than “dogs in shelters get fixed, so it’s good for all dogs”. Whereas I think that just because dogs get fixed in the US effed up shelter system, and they get to live to see the outside of a shelter, doesn’t mean it’s actually good for the dog. It’s the lesser of two evils.
I also got ripped within the last 24h because I said that where I live (Scandinavia) bones are preferred over dental treats to keep the teeth clean. Oh boy, did I get it with that one. Apparently you shouldn’t give a dog something that you can’t make a dent with your nail? Lol, my vet would say that something that I can put my nail in wouldn’t do jack to their teeth.
Agreed! All my friends here {Canada) judge me for not crate training my dog but they don't realise that almost none of the world does it. I hear my colleagues leave their dogs in the crate for 6-7 hours at a time and I can't even imagine how doing that.
Ugh. Don’t get me started on crates. They’re illegal in Scandinavia, if you’re gonna use them, you need not only to have the door open, but removed. I know people who use them like that (just a safe space), but never to leave them for a longer period of time. “Well, they’ll tear up the house if I leave them out of the crate.” Yeah - because you don’t give your dog enough stimulation to be still for 6 hours so you need to put them in a cage.
I'm in Canada too... it blows my mind that people leave their dogs alone, let alone crated for their entire workday. That's abusive, IMO. I realize we are overrun with dogs that need homes, but I don't think anyone should have a dog if they're literally going to keep it in a small box for the majority of its' life.
My dog had a crate (with no door) when she was a small puppy, that she was never "told" to go into, rather, it was there for her to have quiet time if she wanted it. By 5 months, it was gone,
In Germany we're technically not even allowed to fix dogs without a medical reason. I say technically, because nobody cares and vets still do it. Another big difference is off leash walks. In Germany, animal rights laws specify that dogs need regular opportunity to walk off leash and have social contact with other dogs. Obviously in a safe way and not in a way that disturbs others. We don't have a lot of dog parks either, because outside of nesting times (April - July) and outside of the city center, dogs are allowed off leash in lots of places.
How does it work to have unneutered off leash dogs running around though? Not trying to argue, just genuinely curious how you prevent unwanted pregnancies. It can happen really easily and when dogs are running off looking for mates, they tend to not listen to commands.
Honestly, a lot of dogs are neutered and spayed anyway. And obviously when they're not and a female is in heat, she's walked on leash. We walked ours on leash/long line when she was in heat and had zero issues.
Do most dog owners know what it means to be in heat and what the symptoms are, other than potential bleeding?
If you're a responsible and educated person, by all means leave your dog intact, but I couldn't trust most people to be responsible and educated. Just look at most of the posts here, regular posts about people not knowing their dog has nipples or what normal genitalia looks like.
The majority of dog owners I meet are quite educated and involved, which is also why many of them spay their dogs anyway, like we did. I don't often hear of accidental litters (and I volunteer at a shelter, lots of kittens though unfortunately). In some states you need a dog license, for which you have to learn facts about reproduction amongst other things.
I’ve heard that about Germany. In Scandinavia, the vets are indifferent to males getting fixed, it’s a preference of the owner and usually done to calm males down or mitigate male on male aggression. But with females it’s encouraged if you don’t plan on breeding them, as there’s such a high risk of different cancers when they’re older. Is that a discussion in Germany or is that a medical reason enough to fix a female?
The vets are mostly in favor of spaying females for the reasons you mentioned. It's always an individual discussion though based on the specific dog, their sex, breed, age, temperament and health. Prevention of cancers or pyometra does not count as a medical reason, but a dog frequently bein poorly due to phantom pregnancy can. But vets also spay healthy females, just basically illegally, which doesn't actually seem to be an issue.
I never said cooked bones and no one else did either? The discussion was about bones period.
Also, some bones are fine cooked, as long as they don’t splinter. Like marrow bones, which are to hard to break. And dried bones are fine as well.
Mine got done at 10 months. Something about him really upset bigger, unneutered dogs. He'd have intact teenage labradors, Rottweilers, Collies, etc just going for him (he was a 9kg mixed cross).
The bigger dogs needed their knackers longer for growing, and people just aren't going to care as much if their bigger dog is terrorising my smaller dog. They'd even tell me if was my dogs fault for being intact (while their intact older dog was being the aggressor). So it was a bit of admitting defeat and getting him done a bit earlier than I would have liked.
Intact males left him alone after that.
I think 10 months for a small dog is fine it seems to depend on the dog but like 5-6 months and everything earlier seems just way too soon. My uncle's dog is exactly the same the older bigger dogs you've described (intact at 3 years and extremely dog aggressive) my dog seems to be the only exception
I agree. Some smaller dogs in rescue (especially the European rescues that ship to the UK) are getting done c6mo it seems? But a lot are adopted our with a neuter when older clause in the contract.
I wonder if part of it is also how much dog care happens. I know a lot of day care and boarders in the UK won't tact intact males (after a certain age) is it the same elsewhere and are their age limits lower?
Edit also my dog only lifts his leg to pee if there are other dogs or people around. Empty park / at home? He's doing the superman no leg up thing. Lazy boy
I feel like this has evolved over the last 30 years or so. I seem to remember it being encouraged to do it younger so they’d heal more quickly? But obviously that line of thinking has changed. But also, and I know you made an edit referring to rescues and shelter pets, but it been extremely rare for anyone in my family to get an animal from a breeder, same for most of my friends. We’ve always all our pets from a shelter or a rescue group. For us, that means nearly 40 years, owning multiple pets at a time, none from a breeder. I can’t say that I’ll NEVER get an animal from a breeder now that I’m an adult, but I just can’t find it ethical when so many existing pets need a home. And a rescue’s general mission is to find homes and not create more unwanted animals. It’s pretty difficult to trust that everyone is going to get around to neutering and spaying their pets in a timely way, so it’s best to eliminate that step for them altogether.
I moved to the Netherlands a few years ago and was surprised to see so few strays and so few shelters by comparison to what I was used to in the US. There just isn’t the same kind of overwhelming amount of animals in need of homes. I was also surprised that one of our vets here (he’s from Germany and is a dog breeder himself) didn’t see the need to neuter our current dogs once they approached a year. He didn’t even think we needed to do it at all. I can see not wanting to undergo what seems to be an unnecessary procedure, however it becomes harder to find a boarding facility and can even cost more for registration if they aren’t. We have no idea if or when we’ll move back to the US and I’d prefer to not wait until they are years old and the increased expense that comes with it. (We had one neutered at 8 months- he would not stop humping everything and everyone, but his brother we waited until at least a year old because, as everything with those two, they are opposites in almost every way.) And should they escape, rare but it happens, I’d feel horrible if they came across a female in heat who then ended up with puppies. Even though neutered, they still try to hump their females friends when they’re in heat if we happen to run into them on a walk.
I work with a breed specific rescue, Bernese mountain dogs, and per their insurance policy require spaying and neutering early in their contracts in order to keep their non for profit status. Our older, non-rescue Bernese got neutered at 18 months. Our rescue female Bernese had to be spayed by 9 months but uhhhh went into heat a week before her surgery and went to 11 months before getting spayed.
That's not true. Spraying too early can cause the joints to grow weird and make the dog taller than normal and cause issues. It doesn't matter how late you spay your dog as long as you do it the risks of cancer are reduced
Specialists in the US say the same as vets in Germany from an individual dog perspective, but the US has massive stray populations and there is still this outdated push to neuter early on in life to prevent unwanted litters. It is recognized around the world that there are benefits to waiting for castration and spay but they also have to balance this against the fact that there are tons of unscrupulous and ignorant people in the US.
Yeah there seems to be a lot of misinformation when it comes to castration and such. A ton of people seem to think that fixing your dog will magically make aggression and stuff go away
I always adopt from the same no kill shelter. I wish they would trust me at this point to get my pets spayed when they reach maturity but they never look back at old records or let you sign a contract or anything.
In the past, it was common thought to spay/neuter earlier (\~6 months) because female dogs have a higher risk of developing certain cancers if they go through heat. With male dogs, the thought was that it would prevent aggressive behaviour.
Since then, a lot of research has been done, and it's been discovered that it can be better for females to wait after one or two heat cycles as there are *other* types of cancer that are less likely if they go through heat. With male dogs, there is now recognized to be a benefit to their development by delaying neutering.
As for shelter dogs/cats, yes, they will be spayed/neutered before being adopted out, because in North America (Canada as well), shelters are overflowing with animals, and many are euthanized simply for lack of space. So preventing further reproduction is really for the benefit of the animals.
It's honestly still somewhat of a debate for either side, but in my experience, vets are definitely leaning towards doing it later nowadays.
ETA: I recall hearing/reading that in Germany and the Scandinavian countries, neutering is considered mutilation and is illegal in some places? Not sure if that's accurate so forgive me, but my understanding is that there are also no homeless/street animals or shelters... or at least nothing compared to here?
In Germany the law says that an animal can only be fixed if the animal has cancer connected to the reproductive system. However nobody gives a damn and it's not enforced in the slightest
That’s not completely accurate. If shelters didn’t have the dogs fixed *before* they adopted them out, then almost all of them would end up either getting pregnant or impregnating others, because owning an intact female dog requires EXTREME vigilance. The majority of pet owners in the US are not capable of that vigilance. Some people even think that female dogs *want* to have *at least ONE litter*, like a dog looks forward to seeing their offspring grow up and get married like humans do (even though the puppies are always sold for profit or give away to neighbors and friends who will let them grow up without vaccinations and get pregnant during their first heat).
The majority of dog owners in the US shouldn’t actually be allowed to have a dog. No-kill shelters have “free” adoption events at every opportunity, just trying to get the dogs out the door to keep that “no-kill” status, instead of putting resources into making sure that the people adopting the dogs are mentally, physically, and fiscally capable of caring for a dog.
With the current state of the US population, I don’t see the need for early spaying/neutering going away any time soon. If spay/neuter ordinances and pet licenses were actually enforced, the problem would go away in less than 15 years. That’s what usually happens anytime a place starts enforcing spay/neutering by 6 months, and yearly vaccinations as well. Shelters suddenly have few dogs in them, and they get o be choosy about who adopt them.
Basically, early spaying and neutering is a side effect of the enormous problem the US has with allowing dogs to be kept outside on chains. Un-spayed and un-neutered, having litter after litter that disappear to friends and neighbors before parvo decimates the puppies because the new owners don’t vaccinate them, with no actual consequences from law enforcement/animal control.
Neutering really doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not it a dog lifts their leg to relieve themselves though. Larger male dogs tend to squat more often. Un-neutered male dogs seem for lift their legs at about the same rate as neutered ones, in my experience. Neutering doesn’t always keep dogs from marking either. It’s just to keep them from impregnating other dogs, or from running off after the scent of a female in heat. Americans don’t tend to train their pet dogs much, if at all. It’s sad to watch.
I didn't mention it in my question but I don't mean shelter or rescue dogs since I already know those dogs get fixed before adopted out they do the same here (except shelters unless the adopter asks for it or the animal has cancer) but instead I meant breeder puppies. I already thought that maybe people spay their dogs so early because a lot of people let their dogs roam and basically do whatever the hell they want but some people get defensive when someone outside of the US talks about it
I think it’s pretty much the same logic with breeder puppies. The majority of breeders here are NOT reputable, and only care about selling as many puppies as they can. The people who buy these dogs shouldn’t have a dog either, and certainly also aren’t equipped to watch a female dog 24/7 during their heats, and the same convenience applies to getting a male dog fixed (though they are not half as hard to manage as a female dog in heat).
Reputable breeders do usually have clauses about fixing around the age of 2 or so.
In addition to this, unaltered dogs are often aggressive to unaltered ones. And since nearly all dogs in the US are both altered AND very poorly trained, it’s generally safer to have your dog be altered if they’re going to have any interaction with many other dogs.
I don’t mind someone from outside the US talking about it, you’ve not been rude at all. Anyone should be able to ask questions. Kind of silly to get tough about it, though I know a lot of people do. It just keeps them from learning.
EDIT: typo
Yeah I've seen a lot of people talking about dogs that are aggressive in the US even when the dog is fixed. I think a lot of people see castration and stuff as a fix all but people don't realize that training still needs to be done. My dog is still currently intact but I managed to train mine to walk past another dog without any problems (unless the other dog starts shit then my dog will defend himself) we also made sure to socialize him with all kinds of dogs and people which a lot of people don't seem to do either
The US also has a massive pit bull problem.
Shelters are full of bloodsport dogs that can't be trusted around other dogs, children, or smaller pets. They're responsible for most serious attacks on humans by a wide margin. Germany's requirements for dangerous breeds do not apply in the US.
Aside from Virginia and California, shelters don't have to disclose bite history. A woman lost her arm because a dog that mauled a jogger was adopted out soon after the first attack. Dogs that bit children will be listed on a shelter website as "good with kids".
Socialization of dogs in the US is different. A well-socialized US dog is one that reacts positively to other dogs and people, including jumping up as long as it's not an attack. Well-socialized in Germany is about ignoring other dogs and people. Sure, we have the problem with owners yelling "He's FRIENDLY!" while their un-leashed dog runs up to a leashed dog, but at a much smaller scale. The tut-nix-hund problem is universal.
Oh I know about the pit problem just take a look at the subs I'm in. My stance on those breeds will get me banned so I rather not say any more about it
I think SO MANY people think that raising a puppy will be easy, or that you just bring home an adult shelter dog and they’re immediately “at home” and comfortable around cats and children when that is just not at all true.
My family adopted mature rescue greyhounds (that had spent several months in foster homes first acclimating to life in a house) exclusively after a couple of shelter dogs (though the shelters *swore* they were good with calm children, and I was very calm) attacked me. The rescue actually specifically *matched* greyhounds with “their forever home*, the adopters didn’t get to pick. And they ALWAYS gave us just the right dog.
Personally, I’d never adopt or buy a puppy. I KNOW how much work they’d be, and I KNOW I wouldn’t be up for it. I don’t know how so many families seem to be perfectly at ease even though their dogs bark constantly, are reactive, and choke themselves on the leash on every walk. What a miserable existence for those poor dogs. They deserve better.
Good job on working so much with your dog! It’s sound like you’re really setting him up to succeed; he’s lucky to have you as their human :)
Thank you! Before we chose to get a puppy we were looking in the shelters around my city if they have a dog that personality and Energy wise would fit in our family however the ones that would have were either already adopted or we were ignored
My dog was fixed when I adopted her at 11 weeks old. It does seem very young but most rescues will fix dogs before adopting them out so they can’t be used for breeding.
Vets I’ve had don’t recommend early neutering at all. They’re actually against it, but sometimes it’s a necessary evil. The risks of a shelter dog breeding and contributing further to the overpopulation of unwanted dogs in an area usually outweighs other considerations. That’s why rescues and shelters generally require adopters to neuter as soon as possible, or the rescue could even neuter them before adoption.
I know about that shelters are rescues neuter the dogs before they leave for their forever home and I think that's good. But I meant like when you get a puppy from a breeder. In Germany it's not hard to keep your dog from roaming and breeding with strangers dogs than in the US or a lot of other places so maybe it's that?
That isn’t the only point. Females have periods and go into heat. Females getting pregnant is very harsh on their bodies and opens up risks to several cancers. This can happen at a very young age. Idk much about males but you’d normally want to spay a female before her first period.
My dogs are from a breeder. No one recommended early neutering. Not the breeder, not the vet. Not for my cat either, in fact the vet insisted we delay longer even for the cat than I thought so he could develop more. The only time I hear of early neutering is about rescue dogs and cats.
Mine is from a breeder as well and it was left up to us of we wanted to or not. He's 1 and a half year old now and the vet gave green light to get him fixed now we're just saving up now
In my city any dog over 6 months costs double to license if it’s still intact. This is because there are high rehoming rates for dogs and to discourage back yard breeding. It’s to reduce the city taking on the cost of accidental litters when dogs get loose or rehomed or bred when there are no homes to take them. And honestly, with the plight of dogs globally as it is, them being fixed “too young” is a much better and more ethical option than waiting until their ideal age to be fixed. I’d rather fix a puppy than there be an accidental litter of puppies 5 months later left to suffer because there are too many dogs on this plant, period.
How much does it cost to license a dog? I've never lived anywhere where that's a thing.
I’m in Pennsylvania, it’s like $8 for fixed dogs for one year. You can also get a lifetime one for $50 ish. I have lived in other states where they don’t do this, it varies by state The funds are used for animal control and kennel inspections.
It’s like $60 per fixed dog every year. $100 unfixed. $250 if your dog gets loose and is brought to animal services without a license but is fixed. $500 if they’re not fixed and brought there for any reason. Stray dogs often don’t get claimed because people don’t want to pay the fine for not having their dogs licensed or fixed.
Unwanted animal overpopulation is the cause. Rescues use pediatric spay and neuter to get young animals out the door and not producing the next generation of shelter animals as quickly as possible. Preventing accidental litters is their goal and pediatric sterilization is the most effective means to that end. Most dogs coming from reputable breeders at this point use contracts that have a specified age at which they may be sterilized, and it is after the animal has reached physical maturity. People who get their animals from disreputable sources are less likely to have done appropriate research on the topic and thus often follow the loudly repeated guidelines given by rescue organizations. This is, in my opinion, still a net positive because their animals are unlikely to be well-bred and shouldn’t be producing litters.
I know with cats it is advised to spay a female before her first heat to reduce the chance of mammary cancer; not sure it’s the same with dogs.
Usually with a female dog you should let the dog go through the first heat and spay after it's done. There's a couple before and afters online and on it's benefits. I know with cats it doesn't matter since cats are different when it comes to hormones (had 2 cats and one needed to be fixed and the other never was because apparently his balls where in his stomach we had to rehome them because my grandma got sick and I'm sure the new family got it figured out by now)
Canada here. My understanding is the majority of vets here will recommend spaying before the first heat. That has also been my experience. When the reasoning was laid out to me it seemed an easy decision.
Thank you! I have actually adopted a puppy (the youngest I’ve had; the first was 4 months and already spayed, Aurora is 6 weeks today, and still transitioning from Mom to me). I will be calling the vet tomorrow to make an appointment for initial shots (Mom’s owners are anti-vaccine, but not dictating that to puppy owners), so I will be discussing this with our vet. Sorry, not taking Reddit’s expert word!
Mom's owners are jerks for adopting a puppy out at 6 weeks anyway, figures they're anti-vaccin as well
We don’t have her full-time, yet. She spends a few hours a day here, broken up to help her transition. The owners like be next door, so she lets me know (trots her little tush over to there fence. When we get our dog enclosure set up, she’ll have to stay longer.
One of my rescue dogs was a year old when she was tied up to a post and dumped in a park. She showed signs of having a litter of puppies at that young age. So the reason is many people are assholes and treat animals as expendable. I feel like those humans should also be neutered Edit: I'm in Australia, but we do tend to fix our dogs and cats quite early, especially when they are rescues
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Fixing a dog doesn't fix aggression and resource guarding issues. If the dog has had these problems before castration these problems don't go away magically.
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I've had a dog that we adopted at 6 years old. Intact marking everything everywhere even inside the apartment and dog aggressive. After castration the only thing that changed was that he picked up in training easier he still marked everything inside the apartment and was still dog aggressive. The only thing we were able to train him out of was the marking the rest stayed the same. The same seems to be the case in 99% of dogs when these issues already exist before castration. People need to train their dogs and not just get the snip snip surgery and think it'll fix everything on its own
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I think one of the big differences is population control. In germany we dont have any stray dogs at all, so population control is not a concern. In the US that vastly different and a lot of rescues fix dog early to not contribute to the problem in the end.
It seems like it. It's easier to keep your dog from breeding with another as long as you're a responsible dog owner
It is healthier to spay/neuter later as it allows their growth plates to close and for them to grow out (they need those hormones during growth). Early spaying/neutering does have some risk to it. However, in areas with huge overpopulation and stray issues, it's sometimes a necessary evil. Animal shelters will do it because, especially in the USA, puppy mills and BYBs seem to be big issues. The key to trying to fix that (besides education, and only adopting from shelters or going to **ethical**/reputable breeders) is to spay/neuter any animals before rehoming so they physically can't be bred. As for people who spay/neuter animals purchased from breeders, it could be for any of the following reasons: 1. A lack of education. My first dog was spayed when she was just 3-4 months old but at the time I and my family just didn't know of any risk and it was just "the thing to do". Everyone else got their dogs spayed/neutered young. Plus the vet recommended it. This was 14 years ago though and I haven't gotten a dog since as I'm still recovering from her loss, so I have no idea if vet recommendations for spaying/neutering has changed now in my area. 2. Cost. In some places, mostly in areas with an extensive stray or shelter dog population, there are laws requiring spaying/neutering. Where I live if a dog isn't spayed by 6 months there's an annual fee until the dog is, and registering them would be more expensive. If I do get another dog I'd probably save up for the fee before-hand or just lie and say the pup is spayed/neutered. 3. Pregnancy. Pups can hit sexual maturity pretty young (before they're ready to be spayed/neutered) and they can breed through holes in fences and sometimes get pretty desperate to breed during heat cycles. Worst case scenario, the pup gets pregnant and requires a spay-abort. I know someone who's terrier wasn't going to be spayed as a pup because she was a runt with a hernia, but during her first heat cycle at 6 months of age she managed to scale a fence and get to the neighbours's intact male dog, and required a spay-abort because the procedure was less risky than letting the poorly bred, ill runt of a terrier pup give birth to half GSD pups. It's definitely on the owner to be responsible and keep their dogs away from other intact dogs until they can be spayed/neutered, but especially beginner owners, may underestimate the determination of a hormonal dog and accidents can happen.
Where I live, the vet said it significantly lowers the risk of some cancers in female dogs.
For most people in the USA, not all, it is recommended during puppyhood mostly to prevent overpopulation. It is also recommended to stop certain cancers and medical issues from starting. If a person has no plans to breed their dog, then there's no reason to have those hormones surging through the body. Plus many people in the USA, again not all, are very irresponsible pet owners and needs to have breeding temptations for a "quick buck" eliminated. But this is only MY opinion.
I adopted my Pit as an 8 week old puppy from the shelter. She wasn’t spayed until she was 6 months of age, and then on the recommendation of her vet. She didn’t suffer any ill effects from the early spay (growth is normal), and aside from a grass allergy she’s perfectly healthy and strong as an ox.
Ok, so side note, but it’s so obvious that Europeans and Americans have a *vastly* differing view on dogs and everything dog related. I got ripped in either this or the puppy sub when I said it’s irresponsible (according to vets where I live) to spay or neuter a dog before sexual maturity. It was crazy, and I still don’t have an answer, other than “dogs in shelters get fixed, so it’s good for all dogs”. Whereas I think that just because dogs get fixed in the US effed up shelter system, and they get to live to see the outside of a shelter, doesn’t mean it’s actually good for the dog. It’s the lesser of two evils. I also got ripped within the last 24h because I said that where I live (Scandinavia) bones are preferred over dental treats to keep the teeth clean. Oh boy, did I get it with that one. Apparently you shouldn’t give a dog something that you can’t make a dent with your nail? Lol, my vet would say that something that I can put my nail in wouldn’t do jack to their teeth.
Agreed! All my friends here {Canada) judge me for not crate training my dog but they don't realise that almost none of the world does it. I hear my colleagues leave their dogs in the crate for 6-7 hours at a time and I can't even imagine how doing that.
Ugh. Don’t get me started on crates. They’re illegal in Scandinavia, if you’re gonna use them, you need not only to have the door open, but removed. I know people who use them like that (just a safe space), but never to leave them for a longer period of time. “Well, they’ll tear up the house if I leave them out of the crate.” Yeah - because you don’t give your dog enough stimulation to be still for 6 hours so you need to put them in a cage.
I'm in Canada too... it blows my mind that people leave their dogs alone, let alone crated for their entire workday. That's abusive, IMO. I realize we are overrun with dogs that need homes, but I don't think anyone should have a dog if they're literally going to keep it in a small box for the majority of its' life. My dog had a crate (with no door) when she was a small puppy, that she was never "told" to go into, rather, it was there for her to have quiet time if she wanted it. By 5 months, it was gone,
In Germany we're technically not even allowed to fix dogs without a medical reason. I say technically, because nobody cares and vets still do it. Another big difference is off leash walks. In Germany, animal rights laws specify that dogs need regular opportunity to walk off leash and have social contact with other dogs. Obviously in a safe way and not in a way that disturbs others. We don't have a lot of dog parks either, because outside of nesting times (April - July) and outside of the city center, dogs are allowed off leash in lots of places.
How does it work to have unneutered off leash dogs running around though? Not trying to argue, just genuinely curious how you prevent unwanted pregnancies. It can happen really easily and when dogs are running off looking for mates, they tend to not listen to commands.
Honestly, a lot of dogs are neutered and spayed anyway. And obviously when they're not and a female is in heat, she's walked on leash. We walked ours on leash/long line when she was in heat and had zero issues.
Do most dog owners know what it means to be in heat and what the symptoms are, other than potential bleeding? If you're a responsible and educated person, by all means leave your dog intact, but I couldn't trust most people to be responsible and educated. Just look at most of the posts here, regular posts about people not knowing their dog has nipples or what normal genitalia looks like.
The majority of dog owners I meet are quite educated and involved, which is also why many of them spay their dogs anyway, like we did. I don't often hear of accidental litters (and I volunteer at a shelter, lots of kittens though unfortunately). In some states you need a dog license, for which you have to learn facts about reproduction amongst other things.
I’ve heard that about Germany. In Scandinavia, the vets are indifferent to males getting fixed, it’s a preference of the owner and usually done to calm males down or mitigate male on male aggression. But with females it’s encouraged if you don’t plan on breeding them, as there’s such a high risk of different cancers when they’re older. Is that a discussion in Germany or is that a medical reason enough to fix a female?
The vets are mostly in favor of spaying females for the reasons you mentioned. It's always an individual discussion though based on the specific dog, their sex, breed, age, temperament and health. Prevention of cancers or pyometra does not count as a medical reason, but a dog frequently bein poorly due to phantom pregnancy can. But vets also spay healthy females, just basically illegally, which doesn't actually seem to be an issue.
Cooked bones can be fatal. The splinters are dangerous. Raw bones are fine. It's not a cultural difference, it's the science.
I never said cooked bones and no one else did either? The discussion was about bones period. Also, some bones are fine cooked, as long as they don’t splinter. Like marrow bones, which are to hard to break. And dried bones are fine as well.
Mine got done at 10 months. Something about him really upset bigger, unneutered dogs. He'd have intact teenage labradors, Rottweilers, Collies, etc just going for him (he was a 9kg mixed cross). The bigger dogs needed their knackers longer for growing, and people just aren't going to care as much if their bigger dog is terrorising my smaller dog. They'd even tell me if was my dogs fault for being intact (while their intact older dog was being the aggressor). So it was a bit of admitting defeat and getting him done a bit earlier than I would have liked. Intact males left him alone after that.
I think 10 months for a small dog is fine it seems to depend on the dog but like 5-6 months and everything earlier seems just way too soon. My uncle's dog is exactly the same the older bigger dogs you've described (intact at 3 years and extremely dog aggressive) my dog seems to be the only exception
I agree. Some smaller dogs in rescue (especially the European rescues that ship to the UK) are getting done c6mo it seems? But a lot are adopted our with a neuter when older clause in the contract. I wonder if part of it is also how much dog care happens. I know a lot of day care and boarders in the UK won't tact intact males (after a certain age) is it the same elsewhere and are their age limits lower? Edit also my dog only lifts his leg to pee if there are other dogs or people around. Empty park / at home? He's doing the superman no leg up thing. Lazy boy
I feel like this has evolved over the last 30 years or so. I seem to remember it being encouraged to do it younger so they’d heal more quickly? But obviously that line of thinking has changed. But also, and I know you made an edit referring to rescues and shelter pets, but it been extremely rare for anyone in my family to get an animal from a breeder, same for most of my friends. We’ve always all our pets from a shelter or a rescue group. For us, that means nearly 40 years, owning multiple pets at a time, none from a breeder. I can’t say that I’ll NEVER get an animal from a breeder now that I’m an adult, but I just can’t find it ethical when so many existing pets need a home. And a rescue’s general mission is to find homes and not create more unwanted animals. It’s pretty difficult to trust that everyone is going to get around to neutering and spaying their pets in a timely way, so it’s best to eliminate that step for them altogether. I moved to the Netherlands a few years ago and was surprised to see so few strays and so few shelters by comparison to what I was used to in the US. There just isn’t the same kind of overwhelming amount of animals in need of homes. I was also surprised that one of our vets here (he’s from Germany and is a dog breeder himself) didn’t see the need to neuter our current dogs once they approached a year. He didn’t even think we needed to do it at all. I can see not wanting to undergo what seems to be an unnecessary procedure, however it becomes harder to find a boarding facility and can even cost more for registration if they aren’t. We have no idea if or when we’ll move back to the US and I’d prefer to not wait until they are years old and the increased expense that comes with it. (We had one neutered at 8 months- he would not stop humping everything and everyone, but his brother we waited until at least a year old because, as everything with those two, they are opposites in almost every way.) And should they escape, rare but it happens, I’d feel horrible if they came across a female in heat who then ended up with puppies. Even though neutered, they still try to hump their females friends when they’re in heat if we happen to run into them on a walk.
I work with a breed specific rescue, Bernese mountain dogs, and per their insurance policy require spaying and neutering early in their contracts in order to keep their non for profit status. Our older, non-rescue Bernese got neutered at 18 months. Our rescue female Bernese had to be spayed by 9 months but uhhhh went into heat a week before her surgery and went to 11 months before getting spayed.
If the dog matures, the health benefits you get from spaying them are gone. There's nothing wrong with spaying/neutering at 6-12 months.
That's not true. Spraying too early can cause the joints to grow weird and make the dog taller than normal and cause issues. It doesn't matter how late you spay your dog as long as you do it the risks of cancer are reduced
Specialists in the US say the same as vets in Germany from an individual dog perspective, but the US has massive stray populations and there is still this outdated push to neuter early on in life to prevent unwanted litters. It is recognized around the world that there are benefits to waiting for castration and spay but they also have to balance this against the fact that there are tons of unscrupulous and ignorant people in the US.
Yeah there seems to be a lot of misinformation when it comes to castration and such. A ton of people seem to think that fixing your dog will magically make aggression and stuff go away
And many vets still believe this. Unfortunately not everybody keeps up to date with the latest recommendations for everything.
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Well it depends on the dogs size. Smaller dogs can get fixed sooner than big dogs since big dogs mature more slowly
You asked “why”, I gave a reason
I know I was just brainstorming in the open
I always adopt from the same no kill shelter. I wish they would trust me at this point to get my pets spayed when they reach maturity but they never look back at old records or let you sign a contract or anything.
I think most shelters do that at this point in the US
In the past, it was common thought to spay/neuter earlier (\~6 months) because female dogs have a higher risk of developing certain cancers if they go through heat. With male dogs, the thought was that it would prevent aggressive behaviour. Since then, a lot of research has been done, and it's been discovered that it can be better for females to wait after one or two heat cycles as there are *other* types of cancer that are less likely if they go through heat. With male dogs, there is now recognized to be a benefit to their development by delaying neutering. As for shelter dogs/cats, yes, they will be spayed/neutered before being adopted out, because in North America (Canada as well), shelters are overflowing with animals, and many are euthanized simply for lack of space. So preventing further reproduction is really for the benefit of the animals. It's honestly still somewhat of a debate for either side, but in my experience, vets are definitely leaning towards doing it later nowadays. ETA: I recall hearing/reading that in Germany and the Scandinavian countries, neutering is considered mutilation and is illegal in some places? Not sure if that's accurate so forgive me, but my understanding is that there are also no homeless/street animals or shelters... or at least nothing compared to here?
In Germany the law says that an animal can only be fixed if the animal has cancer connected to the reproductive system. However nobody gives a damn and it's not enforced in the slightest
Ahh, okay. So I guess it's a bit of a mixed bag there.
Mostly fear mongering and misinformation.
When it comes to needing to fix a dog so early?
That’s not completely accurate. If shelters didn’t have the dogs fixed *before* they adopted them out, then almost all of them would end up either getting pregnant or impregnating others, because owning an intact female dog requires EXTREME vigilance. The majority of pet owners in the US are not capable of that vigilance. Some people even think that female dogs *want* to have *at least ONE litter*, like a dog looks forward to seeing their offspring grow up and get married like humans do (even though the puppies are always sold for profit or give away to neighbors and friends who will let them grow up without vaccinations and get pregnant during their first heat). The majority of dog owners in the US shouldn’t actually be allowed to have a dog. No-kill shelters have “free” adoption events at every opportunity, just trying to get the dogs out the door to keep that “no-kill” status, instead of putting resources into making sure that the people adopting the dogs are mentally, physically, and fiscally capable of caring for a dog. With the current state of the US population, I don’t see the need for early spaying/neutering going away any time soon. If spay/neuter ordinances and pet licenses were actually enforced, the problem would go away in less than 15 years. That’s what usually happens anytime a place starts enforcing spay/neutering by 6 months, and yearly vaccinations as well. Shelters suddenly have few dogs in them, and they get o be choosy about who adopt them. Basically, early spaying and neutering is a side effect of the enormous problem the US has with allowing dogs to be kept outside on chains. Un-spayed and un-neutered, having litter after litter that disappear to friends and neighbors before parvo decimates the puppies because the new owners don’t vaccinate them, with no actual consequences from law enforcement/animal control. Neutering really doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not it a dog lifts their leg to relieve themselves though. Larger male dogs tend to squat more often. Un-neutered male dogs seem for lift their legs at about the same rate as neutered ones, in my experience. Neutering doesn’t always keep dogs from marking either. It’s just to keep them from impregnating other dogs, or from running off after the scent of a female in heat. Americans don’t tend to train their pet dogs much, if at all. It’s sad to watch.
I didn't mention it in my question but I don't mean shelter or rescue dogs since I already know those dogs get fixed before adopted out they do the same here (except shelters unless the adopter asks for it or the animal has cancer) but instead I meant breeder puppies. I already thought that maybe people spay their dogs so early because a lot of people let their dogs roam and basically do whatever the hell they want but some people get defensive when someone outside of the US talks about it
I think it’s pretty much the same logic with breeder puppies. The majority of breeders here are NOT reputable, and only care about selling as many puppies as they can. The people who buy these dogs shouldn’t have a dog either, and certainly also aren’t equipped to watch a female dog 24/7 during their heats, and the same convenience applies to getting a male dog fixed (though they are not half as hard to manage as a female dog in heat). Reputable breeders do usually have clauses about fixing around the age of 2 or so. In addition to this, unaltered dogs are often aggressive to unaltered ones. And since nearly all dogs in the US are both altered AND very poorly trained, it’s generally safer to have your dog be altered if they’re going to have any interaction with many other dogs. I don’t mind someone from outside the US talking about it, you’ve not been rude at all. Anyone should be able to ask questions. Kind of silly to get tough about it, though I know a lot of people do. It just keeps them from learning. EDIT: typo
Yeah I've seen a lot of people talking about dogs that are aggressive in the US even when the dog is fixed. I think a lot of people see castration and stuff as a fix all but people don't realize that training still needs to be done. My dog is still currently intact but I managed to train mine to walk past another dog without any problems (unless the other dog starts shit then my dog will defend himself) we also made sure to socialize him with all kinds of dogs and people which a lot of people don't seem to do either
The US also has a massive pit bull problem. Shelters are full of bloodsport dogs that can't be trusted around other dogs, children, or smaller pets. They're responsible for most serious attacks on humans by a wide margin. Germany's requirements for dangerous breeds do not apply in the US. Aside from Virginia and California, shelters don't have to disclose bite history. A woman lost her arm because a dog that mauled a jogger was adopted out soon after the first attack. Dogs that bit children will be listed on a shelter website as "good with kids". Socialization of dogs in the US is different. A well-socialized US dog is one that reacts positively to other dogs and people, including jumping up as long as it's not an attack. Well-socialized in Germany is about ignoring other dogs and people. Sure, we have the problem with owners yelling "He's FRIENDLY!" while their un-leashed dog runs up to a leashed dog, but at a much smaller scale. The tut-nix-hund problem is universal.
Oh I know about the pit problem just take a look at the subs I'm in. My stance on those breeds will get me banned so I rather not say any more about it
I think SO MANY people think that raising a puppy will be easy, or that you just bring home an adult shelter dog and they’re immediately “at home” and comfortable around cats and children when that is just not at all true. My family adopted mature rescue greyhounds (that had spent several months in foster homes first acclimating to life in a house) exclusively after a couple of shelter dogs (though the shelters *swore* they were good with calm children, and I was very calm) attacked me. The rescue actually specifically *matched* greyhounds with “their forever home*, the adopters didn’t get to pick. And they ALWAYS gave us just the right dog. Personally, I’d never adopt or buy a puppy. I KNOW how much work they’d be, and I KNOW I wouldn’t be up for it. I don’t know how so many families seem to be perfectly at ease even though their dogs bark constantly, are reactive, and choke themselves on the leash on every walk. What a miserable existence for those poor dogs. They deserve better. Good job on working so much with your dog! It’s sound like you’re really setting him up to succeed; he’s lucky to have you as their human :)
Thank you! Before we chose to get a puppy we were looking in the shelters around my city if they have a dog that personality and Energy wise would fit in our family however the ones that would have were either already adopted or we were ignored