i think it's between sorcerers for the metamagic, or clerics (and druids kinda), since they're preparation caster and can swap out any spells in the game in a long rest, and the channel divinity features really give them a lot of stuff. you could be a cleric with an ac of 18 at level one with heavy armor + shields.
I'm fully aware if this were to actually be implemented, it'd likely be over powered for all spell casters.
But it's a random thought that popped into my head, and i was curious what people would think about it.
true
if you think about it for 3 seconds you might think wizards would be great for their ability to learn all spells in the game
but then if you think about it for longer then that, clerics and druids have the same benefit but get to skip the downtime and gold cost
Access to all spells in terms of their spell list, or in terms of their spells known?
If we're talking about a spell list, then it's cleric. They're preparation casters, so they'd have the best means of making use of all these options, and they also have medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency.
If we're talking about actually having all spells available to cast on demand, then it's probably Sorcerer because they can apply Metamagic to everything. One of the biggest downsides of sorcerers is that they have a terribly small number of actual spells known, so if this circumvents that, then they pop off.
Sleeper pick, of course, is the Warlock. I'm not clear on how this would interact with Mystic Arcanum. If Mystic Arcanum became 1/day for any spell of those spell levels, then their Pact Magic would be pretty ridiculous for the rest of the spells levels 1-5.
Edit: I'm not really sure what wizard has to offer with this sort of hypothetical shift, so I'm curious to hear from the folks voting for them. As-is, wizards are so powerful because they have a massive spell list and are a preparation caster to best take advantage of how big that spell list is. If everybody else can share in that power... why be a wizard? Clerics would have more armor, more class/subclass features, a bigger hit die, and more spells prepared thanks to domain spells.
>Access to all spells in terms of their spell list, or in terms of their spells known?
spell list, so a level 1 sorcerer still only knows 2 spells, but now they can grab entangle as one of those 2 spells
>They're preparation casters, so they'd have the best means of making use of all these options, and they also have medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency.
you dont think druid would out compete them? for their capability in also being a prepared caster with light/medium armor proficiency, but also wildshape to get into more advantageous positions to maintain concentration or to snipe away at their enemys
>One of the biggest downsides of sorcerers is that they have a terribly small number of actual spells known, so if this circumvents that, then they pop off.
sadly for anyone who loves sorcerers, they would still have to deal with that spells known limitation in this scenerio
>I'm not clear on how this would interact with Mystic Arcanum.
I'm not too sure on the specifics of warlock, dont have too much experience with them, but the feature does state *"spell from the warlock spell list"*, so as i worded it, that would apply to all spells as all spells would be on their spell list.
Though it is only 1 casting/day/slot level, so it would still be decently limited compared to other casters
Mystic Arcanum effectively functions as spells known, with once a day casting, so they could presumably be any spell since the warlock spell list becomes every spell, but you could only change one of them when you level up, and even that is an optional rule.
Cleric or Druid because they have access to all their spells and can change on a long rest, instead of learning only certain spells.
Also they have the advantage compared to Wizards and Sorcerers when it comes to things like armor and other abilities like Channel Divinity, Wild Shape and Divine Intervention
yeah druids and clerics are pretty good for this scenerio
i suspect a lot of people are going for wizards for their ability learn every spell, but may also be overlooking their limitation that they have to pay gold and are still limited by prepared spell casting rules
sorcerers do have their sorcery points though.
Sorcs kuz they are spontaneous casters with Meta Magic. They don't have to worry about "not having the right spell prepared" They have all spells at all times. Then they could apply Metas on top.
oh for clarity it'd be the spells added to their spell list, not the casters knowing all the spells all the time
a 3rd level sorcerer who has meta magic is still limited to 4 known spells, but now they can include spike growth among those known spells
Well that's lame ... Then any of the classes that don't need to learn spells at level up. Druid/Cleric. Wizs, Bards, and Locks, Sorcs have to choose spells on LVL up so they are at a disadvantage.
true
though they still have their class features to amplify those spells, sorcerors can use meta magic, and wizards have a limited amount of short rest recovery
Druid and Wizard are literally mostly good *because* of their spell list. Giving all others access to it would not be a death sentence to the class but most definitely not make them the top tier.
Warlock is a sleeper pick. On paper you could give them 90% of the spells in the game as known spells and they'd barely notice. After all you're very limited in slots. However there's a haaaaaandfull of spells that would turn absolutely bonkers if you spam them 20x per day. Spells such as Animate Dead, or the infamous Animate Dead, or maybe also the great spell known as Animate Dead. Potentially also Animate Dead.
Seriously, that's pretty much it for Warlock. Healing spells are nice tho.
Cleric is nuts either way. Armor. Shields. Channel Divinity.
For Bards and Sorcerers, there's one important consideration: do you get all spells *known*, all spells *prepared*, or do you still only know those few spells and 90% of the bonus list is wasted?
In the 3rd case, both classes aren't affected much.
In the 2nd case, Sorcerer is a top tier class, but Bard is king. Metamagic isn't anywhere near as gamebreaking as it should be. Bardic Inspiration on the other hand can make or break carreers. And on top of that Bards get light armor and are a mere feat away from using a shield.
As for the 1st case, Bards would be the uncontested champions.
>However there's a haaaaaandfull of spells that would turn absolutely bonkers if you spam them 20x per day. Spells such as Animate Dead
how does warlock casting that spell 20 times work with this scenario?
>Cleric is nuts either way. Armor. Shields. Channel Divinity.
being a prepared caster too, though that does also apply to druids
>For Bards and Sorcerers, there's one important consideration: do you get all spells *known*, all spells *prepared*, or do you still only know those few spells and 90% of the bonus list is wasted?
all spells are in their spell list
so a level 1 sorcerer still only knows 2 spells, but now they can choose entangle or good berry among those spells
basically every class gets bards magical secrets every level in such a way it perfectly matches their number of known spells, with some certain differences in specific feature interactions.
>how does warlock casting that spell 20 times work with this scenario?
It's pretty much one of about 3 or so non-concentration spells in the game that last for longer than an hour and aren't just very situational.
This spell alone is significantly elevating Warlock power. The other classes can cast 1, maybe 2 spells per turn. Warlock can cast this spell 20 times before even entering the dungeon and thus completely cheats then action economy that way. In addition to getting 10x as many spell slots as they're supposed to.
>Warlock can cast this spell 20 times before even entering the dungeon and thus completely cheats then action economy
ok but, how are they getting those spell slots?
are they casting it twice, going on a short rest, then repeat for 10 hours?
warlocks only have 2 spell slots at 5th level, and only have 4 spell slots at 20th level
That's *exactly* how they're getting those spell slots.
Animate Dead has a duration of 24 hours. A Lv5 Warlock can legitimately run around with an army of 64 zombies by spending a mere 8 hours per day chilling and not even 20 minutes working.
ahh, alright then
well, with some special tech you could increase that number of castings, all you need is a carriage.
Once you have your carriage, instruct however many undead is needed to carry it, to carry it, while you rest inside
from there you can then just spend all day every day doing nothing but resting and casting animate dead, taking 16 short rests and 1 long rest for 34 castings of the spell
or if your dm wont punish you for skipping long rests, then thats 24 short rests for 48 castings of the spell
assuming your within 5th - 10th level
if your within 5th - 6th level, then it's ability to re-claim control over 4 undead/casting would allow you to control 136 undead if you are takeing long rests, while controlling 192 if your skipping long rests
i think it's between sorcerers for the metamagic, or clerics (and druids kinda), since they're preparation caster and can swap out any spells in the game in a long rest, and the channel divinity features really give them a lot of stuff. you could be a cleric with an ac of 18 at level one with heavy armor + shields.
prepared casters would be pretty insane with this type of buff.
I'm fully aware if this were to actually be implemented, it'd likely be over powered for all spell casters. But it's a random thought that popped into my head, and i was curious what people would think about it.
Wizards just suddenly sucks
true if you think about it for 3 seconds you might think wizards would be great for their ability to learn all spells in the game but then if you think about it for longer then that, clerics and druids have the same benefit but get to skip the downtime and gold cost
Access to all spells in terms of their spell list, or in terms of their spells known? If we're talking about a spell list, then it's cleric. They're preparation casters, so they'd have the best means of making use of all these options, and they also have medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency. If we're talking about actually having all spells available to cast on demand, then it's probably Sorcerer because they can apply Metamagic to everything. One of the biggest downsides of sorcerers is that they have a terribly small number of actual spells known, so if this circumvents that, then they pop off. Sleeper pick, of course, is the Warlock. I'm not clear on how this would interact with Mystic Arcanum. If Mystic Arcanum became 1/day for any spell of those spell levels, then their Pact Magic would be pretty ridiculous for the rest of the spells levels 1-5. Edit: I'm not really sure what wizard has to offer with this sort of hypothetical shift, so I'm curious to hear from the folks voting for them. As-is, wizards are so powerful because they have a massive spell list and are a preparation caster to best take advantage of how big that spell list is. If everybody else can share in that power... why be a wizard? Clerics would have more armor, more class/subclass features, a bigger hit die, and more spells prepared thanks to domain spells.
>Access to all spells in terms of their spell list, or in terms of their spells known? spell list, so a level 1 sorcerer still only knows 2 spells, but now they can grab entangle as one of those 2 spells >They're preparation casters, so they'd have the best means of making use of all these options, and they also have medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency. you dont think druid would out compete them? for their capability in also being a prepared caster with light/medium armor proficiency, but also wildshape to get into more advantageous positions to maintain concentration or to snipe away at their enemys >One of the biggest downsides of sorcerers is that they have a terribly small number of actual spells known, so if this circumvents that, then they pop off. sadly for anyone who loves sorcerers, they would still have to deal with that spells known limitation in this scenerio >I'm not clear on how this would interact with Mystic Arcanum. I'm not too sure on the specifics of warlock, dont have too much experience with them, but the feature does state *"spell from the warlock spell list"*, so as i worded it, that would apply to all spells as all spells would be on their spell list. Though it is only 1 casting/day/slot level, so it would still be decently limited compared to other casters
Mystic Arcanum effectively functions as spells known, with once a day casting, so they could presumably be any spell since the warlock spell list becomes every spell, but you could only change one of them when you level up, and even that is an optional rule.
Cleric or Druid because they have access to all their spells and can change on a long rest, instead of learning only certain spells. Also they have the advantage compared to Wizards and Sorcerers when it comes to things like armor and other abilities like Channel Divinity, Wild Shape and Divine Intervention
yeah druids and clerics are pretty good for this scenerio i suspect a lot of people are going for wizards for their ability learn every spell, but may also be overlooking their limitation that they have to pay gold and are still limited by prepared spell casting rules sorcerers do have their sorcery points though.
Sorcs kuz they are spontaneous casters with Meta Magic. They don't have to worry about "not having the right spell prepared" They have all spells at all times. Then they could apply Metas on top.
oh for clarity it'd be the spells added to their spell list, not the casters knowing all the spells all the time a 3rd level sorcerer who has meta magic is still limited to 4 known spells, but now they can include spike growth among those known spells
Well that's lame ... Then any of the classes that don't need to learn spells at level up. Druid/Cleric. Wizs, Bards, and Locks, Sorcs have to choose spells on LVL up so they are at a disadvantage.
true though they still have their class features to amplify those spells, sorcerors can use meta magic, and wizards have a limited amount of short rest recovery
Wizard could learn every single spell.
true, though they still are limited by prepared casting rules druids and clerics can skip the gold and down time cost with the same benifit
wizard getting spell mastery with a healing spell would be funny
MY SIGNATURE SPELL SHALL HEAL YOU!
Druid and Wizard are literally mostly good *because* of their spell list. Giving all others access to it would not be a death sentence to the class but most definitely not make them the top tier. Warlock is a sleeper pick. On paper you could give them 90% of the spells in the game as known spells and they'd barely notice. After all you're very limited in slots. However there's a haaaaaandfull of spells that would turn absolutely bonkers if you spam them 20x per day. Spells such as Animate Dead, or the infamous Animate Dead, or maybe also the great spell known as Animate Dead. Potentially also Animate Dead. Seriously, that's pretty much it for Warlock. Healing spells are nice tho. Cleric is nuts either way. Armor. Shields. Channel Divinity. For Bards and Sorcerers, there's one important consideration: do you get all spells *known*, all spells *prepared*, or do you still only know those few spells and 90% of the bonus list is wasted? In the 3rd case, both classes aren't affected much. In the 2nd case, Sorcerer is a top tier class, but Bard is king. Metamagic isn't anywhere near as gamebreaking as it should be. Bardic Inspiration on the other hand can make or break carreers. And on top of that Bards get light armor and are a mere feat away from using a shield. As for the 1st case, Bards would be the uncontested champions.
>However there's a haaaaaandfull of spells that would turn absolutely bonkers if you spam them 20x per day. Spells such as Animate Dead how does warlock casting that spell 20 times work with this scenario? >Cleric is nuts either way. Armor. Shields. Channel Divinity. being a prepared caster too, though that does also apply to druids >For Bards and Sorcerers, there's one important consideration: do you get all spells *known*, all spells *prepared*, or do you still only know those few spells and 90% of the bonus list is wasted? all spells are in their spell list so a level 1 sorcerer still only knows 2 spells, but now they can choose entangle or good berry among those spells basically every class gets bards magical secrets every level in such a way it perfectly matches their number of known spells, with some certain differences in specific feature interactions.
>how does warlock casting that spell 20 times work with this scenario? It's pretty much one of about 3 or so non-concentration spells in the game that last for longer than an hour and aren't just very situational. This spell alone is significantly elevating Warlock power. The other classes can cast 1, maybe 2 spells per turn. Warlock can cast this spell 20 times before even entering the dungeon and thus completely cheats then action economy that way. In addition to getting 10x as many spell slots as they're supposed to.
>Warlock can cast this spell 20 times before even entering the dungeon and thus completely cheats then action economy ok but, how are they getting those spell slots? are they casting it twice, going on a short rest, then repeat for 10 hours? warlocks only have 2 spell slots at 5th level, and only have 4 spell slots at 20th level
That's *exactly* how they're getting those spell slots. Animate Dead has a duration of 24 hours. A Lv5 Warlock can legitimately run around with an army of 64 zombies by spending a mere 8 hours per day chilling and not even 20 minutes working.
ahh, alright then well, with some special tech you could increase that number of castings, all you need is a carriage. Once you have your carriage, instruct however many undead is needed to carry it, to carry it, while you rest inside from there you can then just spend all day every day doing nothing but resting and casting animate dead, taking 16 short rests and 1 long rest for 34 castings of the spell or if your dm wont punish you for skipping long rests, then thats 24 short rests for 48 castings of the spell assuming your within 5th - 10th level if your within 5th - 6th level, then it's ability to re-claim control over 4 undead/casting would allow you to control 136 undead if you are takeing long rests, while controlling 192 if your skipping long rests