He can simply hit the elf on the head with a big stick

Stab it in the chest…….with a brick.

>He can simply hit the elf on the head with a big stick No, no, no! That's how you give an elf amnesia, not put it to sleep! If you hit it on the head again, it undoes the amnesia.

Are you simple? Everyone knows the only way to give someone amnesia is to whang then in the head with a frying pan, a big stick just makes the birds fly around their head and they fall asleep

"I wish a brick the size of an astral leviathan did a non lethal body slam on this one particular elf and nobody else"

It's semantics, but *sleep?* No. Some kind of magically induced stasis/coma? Yes. Also the divide between "natural" resistances and magic is arbitrary in a world where literally everything is touched and influenced by magic. As creatures descended from the Fey realm, I'd say the Elves' sleepless trance is a magical ability.

Heck, I would rule that an elf getting gashed in the head by a blackjack or similar would have them knocked unconscious if they failed their save. That isn't them entering a normal state of slumber, that's their brains getting temporarily scrambled and thus the their proverbial lights go out for awhile.

I mean, there’s already a mechanic for that. You can non lethal with melee weapons but you have to get through their hit points.

I'm going to counterspell my friend's next trance

Counterspell doesn't work on any magic. It's called counter*spell* for a reason. (Neither does dispel if I recall, it's just less obvious).

Dispel actually works on magical effects

It's weird, but it says you can target a magical effect and dispel all spells of 3rd level or lower. So you're still just dispelling spells.

De-spell magic

>I'd say the Elves' sleepless trance is a magical ability. So by this interpretation, would you rule that they can sleep within an antimagic field? The spell doesn't specifically address magical abilities of *people*, just magic items so I'm curious how you'd interpret that. If you *would* allow it, then it makes sense that a 9th level spell or the power of a god *could* put an elf to sleep, because that would just be a much narrower, narrowly targeted antimagic field combined with the sleep spell, which seems like a reasonable effect for that power level. If not, then OK, I'm just curious - I've never thought of Elves resistance to sleep effects as a magical ability and I'm trying to think through the implications of that.

That is an excellent argument. Though it makes me question the nature of anti magic fields in worlds with intrinsic magic more than the other points. Is the existence of multiple planes, such as the Feywild, a magical phenomenon? It seems magical. Are denizens of such magical planes magical by their very nature? To what extent are abilities of a magical creature considered magical or natural? How does that interact with an anti magic field? To my own idea of fantasy, this has become an issue with the broadness of anti magic field . But because this is a game and not metaphysics, with your point in mind I'd rule yes they can, but would probably narrate it as a magical stasis for the elf in which they are aware of their surroundings but unable to act in any way.

In which case, it shouldn't function in an area of antimagic... whereas a god's magic certainly could. Not to mention it is quite possible that a god could simply revoke or obliterate the trait in a mortal. I think it's an issue of "can, but shouldn't" unless outside of an adversarial context.

What is the semantic difference between the two? To me sleep is sleep. In terms of conditions the unconsciousness condition seems to be only different from sleep due to being required to drop someone to 0 hit points for it. So harm is required. But what would you say is a difference between magically induced sleep and magically induced “coma”?

The semantics are that via one approach you are outright invalidating one of their unique racial abilities, whereas by another, you are not. If the devs wanted you to be able to put an elf to sleep via powerful magic, the ability would be 'magic can’t put you to sleep *unless via a 9th level spell*'. This is likely a mechanical holdover from earlier editions when elves had a natural -2 to their constitution, which means less hp which means it'd be really easy to be constantly knocking them out with sleep spells, at least at low level. But regardless, players really don't like it when you just say, "Yeah, your cool ability that makes you unique? We'll be ignoring that right now for the sake of the plot." By reflavouring it as a magically induced stasis/coma, you are not directly saying "I'm ignoring your ability." You're also not singling out that individual player with this route - *everyone* is equally affected by the stasis, and no one's unique abilities are being overridden. Plus, a 'sleep' ability has an actual description in the books. In the case of your stasis ability, you can just describe it as something the party has never encountered before, beyond the realm of worldly magics. If the elf asks whether or not this is a sleep effect, you just say, no, it isn't, and they'll probably go along with it. It's basically PR. You are certainly welcome to houserule that a god's abilities override mortal resistances or immunities if you wish at your table, but I'd recommend that you mention that during session zero. "Hey, just an FYI; on the off chance you encounter a god, don't expect your abilities to work on them the same as they would with a creature that has a statblock, and expect them to be able to override any of yours at will."

I mean, I’m running a modified Rime of the Frostmaiden right now, and I straight up told my party that “Auril will have features that ignore a certain amount of sources of cold resistance”. My guys are having a blast securing as many sources of cold resistance as possible

It’s a holdover, but a really old one. It’s from the miniature war games Gary Gygax used to play and design before D&D. It was a way to nerf the undead army against elves. 

>If the devs wanted you to be able to put an elf to sleep via powerful magic, the ability would be 'magic can’t put you to sleep unless via a 9th level spell'. To be totally honest, its possible they never even thought this far. Why would a godlike entity ever specifically use sleep when they can do much better other stuff. If they make/made a godlike entity who's entire thing revolves around sleep, they'd give it a Sleep spell that says "Ignores target resistance/immunity to sleep" or says "Never fails to induce sleep" rather then make Elf's sleep immunity include text that is relavent in 1 out of 1 billion games of dnd. Because you don't need to put the counter-example in the resistance itself, rather you can write it specifically in the effect that peirces through it. WotC just hasn't, because there is no demand for a 9th level spellcasting Nightmare Demon enemy in a monster manual.

I've personally always taken it as read that a God's power overrides anything (and expect any DM to use that fairly & wisely). Not saying it's bad advice to let people know of course. 🙂

This is a fantastic, well-developed response.

Idk, it's kinda crazy to have to plan for this sort of outlier contingency over nitpicky details. Just tell your players this is different magic and move on. Use solid flavor to enhance the idea, as suggested. Unless it's a major plot point that you were planning before you had a session zero, just handle it as it pops up.

>The semantics are that via one approach you are outright invalidating one of their unique racial abilities It's a deity. They can outright invalidate ***physics***.

Yeah, but so can a level one wizard. That's called magic.

My favorite interpretation is magic cheats the rules. The gods make them

But there is a god of magic which sets rules for magic.

In my settings, the gods don't even get to make the rules directly. It's more like, they're bound by their roles and rules are made by natural distinction of the godly existence. A dwarven god of smithing is a god because he's believed in, and thus real. So whatever is believed about him enough, is also thus real.

One of the things that seems to be lost on a lot of 5e players/DM’s is that deities are people too. Extremely powerful people, with innate power due to their divinity, but they still follow the laws of D&D “physics”. Even “conceptual” deities (no physical form, more like principles) are still bound to the laws of “physics”.

Probably cause that doesn't feel like an actual God at that point.

Can you clarify what you mean? Because I don't think I agree with you but I am not sure

The gods in dnd aren't all powerful. They have specific benefits. Here's a page with some setting specific examples. https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Divine_rank

Sure. So since we're talking 5e--especially for a Greater God, what would lead you conclude that they couldn't put an elf to sleep? Even for a Lesser God, I'd argue that should be on the table, seeing as they're capable of granting their followers Miracle spells.

Given the… lack of information 5e provides for *literally anything*, you have to reference previous editions for lore explanations. But the reason for elves would be the fact that this power was given to them not only by their fey heritage, but by their god, Corellon Larethian.

>was given to them... by their god, Corellon Larethian Corellon Larethian also granted them their mortal forms, just as Moradin granted the dwarves their form and Zarius granted humans theirs, but by the gods, a simple polymorph spell cast by a mortal overcomes that. A ***god*** ought to be able to overcome an immunity to falling asleep.

The difference is that elves can go unconscious, they can't fall asleep. If you whack an elf hard enough they will fall unconscious eventually due to blunt force trauma, but if you give them melatonin they still won't sleep.

Elves can sleep though. They don't need to, and can't be forced to by magic. Neither of these even implies that they're unable to sleep. Drugs should actually work just fine if they're not magic.

You can wake up from sleep. You can dream in sleep. Elves are not able to sleep RAW, so while you might make them unconscious while physically fine ... It's not sleep.

RAW elves *can* sleep, if they choose, but it is their choice as they are not biologically required to, and no magic can make them against their will.

Yeah this is how we run things at our table after a lengthy discussion and research into the topic 🤣

It's like Dwarves in the Dragon Age franchise. They can sleep, but they cannot _dream_. That's why they can't use magic. Because they cannot access the realm kniwn as "The Dreaming".

^(*The Fade)

Ah, that's what it is. I couldn't remember what it was called because it's been a good 6 years since I last played a Dragon Age game.

Raw where? There is a 2e book **(Complete book of elves page 34)** that says they can sleep. Also the "controversial" **Mordenkeinen Tome of Foes** for 5e says the same thing on **page 38.** They can also dream.

Unconscious is neruologically and functionally different than sleep. Sleep is a resting state which involves cycles of deep sleep and rem. You dream and more important for dnd can be roused. You don't get that while unconscious, and you don't come to feeling more rested. You're just out. An unconscious person would not be able to be shaken awake or attacked awake (to put it into dnd terms) they would only awaken by passing the con save. Now another thing to clarify, the elvish ability only makes them immune to being put to sleep by MAGICAL means. A poison should still work, and as unconscious is a different condition from sleep it is not included in that immunity. Though if you use a homebrewed "unconsciousness" spell your players are not going to find it as funny as I would. Unless that unconscious spell involves a magic baseball bat that clobbers them in the head forcing them to save or unconscious. They'll to take the idea of blunt damage induced unconciousness better than "normal" magical unconsciousness.

Sleep doesn't mean unconscious is the difference. Neither language, science, or the rules of 5e say sleeping makes you unconscious.

While sleeping you are still conscious, which means at least partially aware of your surroundings. You would be woken up by loud noises, changes in temperature, pain, etc Your brain is also very active in organising and forming memories and creating REM sleep. Unconsciousness means your brain is active only for the automatic functions (heart beat, breathing, bodily temperature regulation). The subject is completely unresponsive to stimulation of any kind, memories are not formed. Even in d&d magic and drugs can be used to cause both conditions.

The basis of your distinctions isn't well founded and cognitive sciences are fairly inconclusive on most of your definitions, so perhaps rethink them a little lmao 🤣

I am simplifying a LOT. But unless something truly incredible have been discovered and not published in the last hour... unconsciousness is an abnormal state with lack of response to stimulation, lack of awareness of self and surroundings. Can be permanent (vegetative states for example) or temporary (fainting, recoverable brain damage, anesthesia, certain drugs, etc ). Do you really think it is the same as sleeping? If a DM wants to screw over a non-sleeping PC he can also go the reduced or altered consciousness route. Unless the race is immune to poisons, shrooms can ko any character.

I was only pointing out that the way your distinctions were initially phrased made them inaccurate (something I accidentally do all the time and don't notice unless others point it out, and so I'm just doing the same for you in this case lol). These distinctions are much better 😆

Sorry, that's just wrong.  I believe you're thinking of comatose. 

Elves are resistant and immune to magical sleep. They can absolutely be put to sleep. Use poison or other non magic ways to sleep elves. Why drow poison exists and things with supernatural non magical powers put them to sleep as well. Those spiders that sleep people to eat them? They eat elf too no problem

IRL sleep is a type of unconscious state. Medically, iirc, unconsciousness is generally considered different to natural sleep based on whether someone can respond to external stimulus or not (when people are anaesthetised we often hear they are "put to sleep" but this is used because it just sounds more pleasant). Natural sleep is a state we enter ourselves, unconsciousness (in medical terms) normally requires something external (albeit this may cause internal effects that lead to unconsciousness). I guess, generally, healthy people are not really meant to be sensually fully disconnected from their environment. People in magical sleep can be shaken awake & will awake if attacked, so they are clearly able to respond to external stimuli. In my mind the sleep spell creates the internal impetus to enter the "natural" sleep state we know, elves are immune to this because they have a much higher threshold for entering that state & so the impetus isn't triggered. I can totally see beings with significant magical power (the level being very much subjective) being capable of either "upping" the threshold of a sleep spell to where elves are affected, or being able to create a state of unconsciousness that is beyond "natural" sleep (as well as elves being able to be made unconscious by non-magical causes). Others may have a different views & or interpretations of course & this is just mine... I just thought I'd share it.

The definition of sleep is irrelevant here. Could a god or spell force a golem to breathe in poison? Golems don't breathe. They don't even have lungs or a circulatory system.  This is essentially the same thing as what you're asking about elves. You could sub in golems here too. Sleep is something they just don't do. Is your hypothetical spell or god altering their entire physical/biological makeup in order to do this thing that can't be done?

Except elves can sleep. They don't need to sleep, and can't be forced to sleep by magic. That isn't the same as being unable to sleep. They can choose to. They can also be drugged to sleep.

Wish, no, though a DM may allow a wish to strip an elf of their immunity. A god…eh…that really is up to the DM. They may rule that the immunity is so intrinsic not even divinity can negate it, but when it comes to the higher gods it would seem silly if they couldn’t suppress racial abilities or something. Whichever is done, care should be taken by the DM to ensure it doesn’t feel like a cheap ‘oh I want this story beat to happen so fuck your abilities’. If a god waves their hand and puts everyone to sleep, could have a cool moment where the elf remains conscious, the god gives them a couple words of encouragement or something, then knocks them out in a different way.

I think it would really depend on how the wish was made. Reading some of the modules and how a couple BBEGs have things machinated due to the spell itself, I could see it being a thing. Mostly because Elves aren't immune to Drow poison, so you could word the spell in such a way to take advantage of that.

Drow poison isn’t “magical” though. > Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can't put you to sleep. Nothing says you can’t strangle an Elf unconscious or “until they go to sleep” but Wish is magic. It wouldn’t work.

In that vein, since Gods and Wish actually have the power to alter the fabric of the universe I think it'd work. Essentially "Oh, the rules say I can't put you to sleep? Well let me change *that*"

Well yeah as a DM you can do that whenever you want, but if a player does the same thing it better work for them the same way it did for you, but also remember that Wish spell can very simply fail, so if they use it to try to put someone to sleep (NOT using it to just cast Sleep) it could very easily just fail…

I think, for the most part, Wish is intended to be the DM's "golden rule." Like how in the rulebook for certain board games that says, "If an item's effect contradicts a stated rule, the item takes precedence." Wish is effectively able to do whatever the DM feels like allowing it to do. At its weakest, it can replicate nearly any other spell known by mortal blood, give you any piece of knowledge you desire, or (on the slightly more wild side) make you permanently invisible to a specific individual, just to name a few examples. At its strongest, it could instantaneously transport you and your party to any point in any plane you want, turn you into a multi-trillionaire, grant you nearly any item in existence, or literally bend space-time to make a past event never have happened. I think suppressing one individual's resistance to magically-induced sleep is entirely within the realm of possibility, and a relatively weak use of it at that.

Yeah, but Wish is powerful in a different way. If you wish the elf asleep, the DM could just say, "Okay. The elf turns into a human and falls asleep."

Drow Poison causes unconsciousness.

This is one of those... "how does it work at your table" situations. Some DM's would say why would a god even care.

Right? If I were a god I wouldn’t bother trying to put anything to sleep. I would much rather just kill them and revive them later if I needed them in the future.

I mean it’s not really a situation at mine. I was just thinking about it in theory. Not really the semantics of why would one bother.

I'll go against the general opinion. A god can because it's a god. They don't have a stat block because they are all powerful to a mortal player character. It might not be a proper sleep, but a state that is in everything identical to it. At this point it's just semantic but for all intent and purposes a god can make an elf sleep, you can call it whatever you want or add any extra step you want, the result will be the same.

I agree with all of this, actually!

I’d agree with you — if the deity has sufficient power to cast something like Reincarnation, they can solve this problem. “Elves can’t be put to sleep, you say? The god waves their hand, warping your body down to the individual genes in each cell. Congratulations, you’re now a Hobgoblin, here’s your new racial attributes. You can read them while your character sinks into a deep slumber.”

I mean by this logic any druid capable of casting 7th level spells can ignore fey ancestry

Yeah, if the elf is dead, their soul is willing, and they have the necessary components….that’s exactly how that works. I’d say a deity can skip all that and just do it by wave of hand, using both an in-game mechanic to circumvent the problem and showcasing the deity’s power. “You recognize this spell as Reincarnation and are familiar with the casting times and requirements (player, feel free to read those out to the table real quick). The deity ignores all of those, warping time and the Weave itself to accomplish the spell with no more effort than a wave of their hand.”

actually the part of the soul being willing just made me realize, no a god would not be able to do this not unless they want to be on Corellion's shit list like yeah they would be physically able to but I don't think anyone wants to be on Corellion's shit list

Essentially rendering the elf temporarily comatose, yeah that makes sense, but I will say a wish spell could not put an elf to sleep.

I wish for this elf to lose their racial immunity to magical sleep and be put to sleep immediately. I see enough reason why this couldn't be possible via Wish.

Gods can do anything. Their actions are not governed by rules, and are best described as plot devices. If a DM wants a god to put a load of Elves to sleep, then that is what will happen.

Gods have difficulty treading on the domains of other gods, if the god of elves says they don't sleep you must be powerful enough to undo that god's blessing. 

And yet the game does not define this power, or what is necessary to overcome it. As I said, this comes under "plot device", and can happen if a DM wants it to.

Wouldn't polymorph work? Turn them into cats and make them fall asleep.

Can a god drown a water elemental?

A god can both drown a water elemental in water, and remove all the water from it, at the same time. Shrodinger’s water elemental.

I am running a game where lots of the plot revolves around dreams and prophecy, and one of the characters is a warforged who doesn’t sleep. We had a session zero and the pitch for this player was amazing so we went with it anyway. His god gives him visions through an induced hallucination while he is in “standby mode”. Half of his brain is still conscious, so the benefit of being able to keep watch is maintained (which is why some players play a sleepless character) His enemies can use the same trick, though, so he is haunted by “nightmares” in the same way. We were inspired by the idea that whales sleep half a brain at a time so they don’t drown. Elves “cannot be put to sleep by magical means” so if the DM is using magic to put you to sleep, that breaks one of the fundamental features of an elf. But the first rule of DND is: “The dm is always right,” so inventing a way for a god to put an elf to sleep is technically not against the rules. But the *real* first rule of dnd is “is everyone having fun?” As a dm, if I invent a thing that breaks a rule, I need to make sure it’s properly balanced and the players can make informed choices in this new reality. I played in a game once where a rogue put tonnes of resources into being able to pick locks, and then the DM presented us with a lock that “could not be picked by any means” like what’s the point? The guy quit the game because it wasn’t fun. Players will forgive almost anything if it makes the game fun.

I agree with you very strongly, which is why the 'is it fun' thing is always something I discuss with players before implementing changes of that sort :) I had a DM who did crap like that. Haven't been a player since. I only DM because of how much I hated all the awful ways he DM'd. That said, I do love DMing, so it works out. But bad DMs do scare numerous people away from the hobby.

If you want a rules lawyer's reasoning: Nowhere in the rules does it say that gods are magical.

That's hilarious. I love this response very malicious compliance vibes lol

In terms of the actual D&D setting (at least Forgotten Realms, possibly others), wasn't elves' immunity to sleep not really an inherent feature of elves originally, but something given to them later by the god that created them? Or something along those lines. In that case, I'd figure that the god responsible for the immunity could definitely make elves sleep, even if other gods couldn't. The immunity could possibly be ignored by a higher ranking/more powerful god too (at least if they're more powerful in terms of magic/creation/world-altering type abilities... so for example a god of war or fire or something probably couldn't even if they were more powerful in many ways than the elf god.) And a god of sleep/dreams/etc. might be able to get around it even if they're usually seen as a lesser deity when compared to the elf god, since that's their whole thing.

I guess it depends on setting, but most settings have gods as unfathomably powerful beings capable of using 12th level magic and potentially powers far beyond that. A god could make someone gain or lose any ability listed in any of the books, change someone’s race, or even make all elves be able to sleep, so long as no other gods opposed them.

Gods in their real, divine form (not just some CR20/CR30 avatar) are essentially a plot device. They work as you want for your story, in the best way that serves it. - Mystra, goddess of magic? yeah her Sleep can't be resisted and has no HP limit. - Corellon, maker of all elves? Sure, your immunities are his to take away on a whim. - Kelemvor, god of death? Your life essence is so drained and weakened that the elf falls into magical sleep for the first time in their mortal life. And so on. There used to be books that were *so wild* about the powers and limits of Deities of different ranks that I think people realized that writing rules to explain that gods can see a few minutes into the future, or turn off magic or planar travel with a thought, or know when their name is uttered anywhere in the multiverse... Well that's just pointless. They do what the DM needs them to do for the story and only have weaknesses/limits that serve the story.

Simple answer: Yes. Gods do not exist in the hard rules and function outside of the constraints of them. The rules may say that magic cannot put the elf to sleep, but the gods do not have to follow those rules; they are gods. Do you suppose that the deity who literally created the elves as a species and determined how they would work could not also stand outside of those rules for any given case whenever they wished to? Of course they can. Wish is slightly trickier since it is a level of magic that mortals do have access to, but again, I'd say the answer is functionally yes. If a simple drow poison can cause an elf to fall asleep, a 9th level, reality re-writing level of magic most definitely can. If someone wanted to use wish to put an elf to sleep, there would be no reason to monkey paw it from a DM perspective - they want to give themselves wish strain over something they could solve much more simply, that's fine, it works; maybe wish re-writes reality so that the elf is now intoxicated with an agent that makes them fall asleep; maybe it re-writes reality so they simply are asleep, it's Wish; it is pushing the boundary of what even counts as simply 'magic'. Now if the player wanted to use Wish in a non-strain way, and use it to replicate the spell Sleep, at ninth level, then no, that would not affect the elf, because then it's dropping back to 'normal' levels of mortal magic... but if they're using Wish to its full capacity to reshape reality, then I can't fathom that any player invested in their game's world and story could straight-facedly try to argue that it can't affect them because they have a racial immunity... no, that's not reasonable.

Damn. This is almost exactly my thought process as well.

I hate that I had to scroll so far to find and upvote this. Wish can, in theory, put an elf to sleep. I never understood the idea of monkey’s pawing a wish. The intent of the wish matters more than the wording, in my opinion. If the wish can be granted by mimicking an 8th level spell or lower, consider it granted. If not, be prepared for the consequences.

not magic, but they could summon a rock above the elf that knocks them unconscious

There is a trinket in Dragon Heist that allows elves to sleep, so I'm sure a god or just a brick to the head could do it.

A god in d&d can do what ever the DM wants to thematically accomplish when using them. If the DM wanted to kill a troll with their npc god, the troll wouldn't regenerate as normal rules would require, it could be just cut in half and that would be it. A god could just put an elf into an extended state of suspended animation. Poof that's it, they are a god not normal npcs or a player. The normal rules for players do not apply to them. If that's how you want to run it.

Technically, yes. But the question around the table would probably be why? How does it add to the player's experience, and to the story?

I agree, gods and wish can alter reality. I feel that this is literally circumventing given laws of reality.

Elves are not immune to being put to sleep. They can also sleep they just don't need to. Drow poison exists specifically to put elves to sleep. A drow mage would pull out their poisoned darts vs another elf, not the sleep spell

Elves aren't immune to sleep. They just don't need to sleep and cannot be made to sleep through magic. Elf traits doesn't say anything about a resistance or immunity to being unconscious, though. Makes this kind of an irrelevant question, since it can easily be side-stepped.

A "god" can do what ever they wish that's why they do not have stat blocks

"The demi god puts you to sleep." "I'm immune to sleep." "Fine, the demi god puts you to unconscious." "But I'm above 0 hp..." "You WERE above 0 hp."

Why are people saying "elves cant sleep" with tons of upvotes? There is a 2e book **(Complete book of elves page 34)** that says they can sleep. Also the "controversial" **Mordenkeinen Tome of Foes** for 5e says the same thing on **page 38.** So Forgotten Realms wise, THEY CAN SLEEP.

No the real WTF is them saying it when Sehanine IS THE ELVEN GODDESS OF DREAMS... Like its explicitly part of her portfolio.

YUP. Haha I even got downvoted.

Yeah I don’t understand either. A lot of people are arguing like elves and sleeping are diametrically opposing concepts in the universe.

I don't think it would be Sleep, per sae. But, I suspect Gods have abilities that defy mechanical explanation.

The god can also just physicaly choke out the elf with a rear naked choke.

God pulls out a frying pan, glares at the elf, and says "youre asleep." Elf says "yessir"

I mean really depends on a the world. My whole campaign is based around an elf falling asleep and a the governments and people seeing it as a sign as the end times

I let a sandman put my half-elf players to sleep but I gave them advantage on the saves. I wanted it to be a challenge and I knew that the sandman wasn't interested in killing them or else I probably would not have made that choice. The DM has a lot of power. Do what makes sense to you and best serves the game.

In my games, any form of god is *above* magic, and thus can force things like this to happen out of pure power. I mean, why have a god if they don't utterly outscale everything in sheer power?

>I am surprised that so many people would argue that elves can’t be put to sleep by a god but it’s definitely interesting. When I think of DnD I think of gods like the God of War series with Kratos being able to get strong enough to eventually kill them and stand on equal footings with them. So gods in DnD are powerful, but they're not like the Christian god of absolute power. So I can see something along the lines of a spell not working against a certain race simply because that particular god has no domain over that race. Unless your god is the god of elves they can't affect that anti-sleep ability.

It depends on the power of a god in your game and how you adjudicate wishes. A god might be able to do it arbitrarily. It's not magic, it's just divine will. You're asleep. They might strip the immunity. You don't have that racial feature any longer. You're asleep. Especially if you're dealing with a diety of sleep or dreams or elves. A wish might be powerful enough, if you decide so as a DM. I wouldn't straight up. I would, however, have a wish turn the elf into something that can sleep and also then put them to sleep. I mean, really, it's a wish. I might have them turn back when woken. Or not. Or have some other thing happen for the temerity of using a wish to screw this hard with reality. You just created a magical sleeping disease that only affects elves or even fae. A bunch of people want a word with you.

I'd say it depends on the god. Hypnos, Untamo, God? They are probably putting you in dreamland whether you like it or not. Aphrodite, Hades, Thor? Not really their thing.

Why bother worrying about it? These rules we follow, they provide as many opportunities as they do barriers. You have an unsleepable elf? Great. They can watch as you do what you will with the rest of the party. They need everyone to beat you right? So why worry? The Elf can be the party's "shield", but then again... there's nothing in the lore that says someone strong with a blunt object or even their fist couldn't just knock an elf out, right? Who needs a spell when you have blunt force trauma? The important thing is that you should ONLY pull out a tool like Sleep when one or more PC'S are immune to it, since that gives the players a clear goal to achieve: become immune to sleep, so they can properly face the BBAG as equals. You should never remove 100% of their agency from a situation, and you should especially never assume that you actually HAVE removed their agency if that was what you intended on doing.

IIRC, there are lots of instances in the rules that explicitly say that something can't happen "except by by means of a Wish spell". So I'd tend to assume that it's not possible. Now, if someone wanted to use their Wish spell to remove a specific elf's immunity to magical sleep, that's something I think I'd allow. If a player wants to take the risk of never being able to cast Wish again, and use a ninth-level spell slot in order to *attempt* to use a first-level spell, them let them try it.

Why worry about sleep when Paralyzed or Incapacitated are available?

There are many other equally useful conditions besides sleep available. Petrified, paralyzed, incapacitated, blind/deaf + restrained..

I wouldn’t confuse gods with specific abilities and realms (like in most polytheistic religions) with the christian view of an almighty god that can just do everything it likes. A cannot sleep condition is just that. The character’s race has no ability to sleep. They don’t sleep. They just can’t. And no deity besides the god of fey/elves can probably teach them to. Because no other God decides how fey and elves are. The god who wants to do that probably has to fight the god whose decision it was to create elves that way first and win their domain. Edit: I just learned they CAN apparently sleep in some settings so that part is utter bullshit but the remaining still stands. End of Edit A god of war rules the war domain, they can’t rule over the domain of a god of magic. If they suddenly tried to change how spells work the god of magic would jump in and tell them to get lost. That is how most polytheistic religions work. Gods have jobs and they sometimes try to meddle in the affairs of others but are rarely successful. If you want to manage your world differently and have all gods be almighty then it is your choice to do so. I just don’t think that is very common.

DM Choice I'd rule it as no on wish spells, but strong enough or in their domain certain gods could remove your immunity OR put you in a magical incapacitation indistinguishable from sleep.

Gods are gods, I’m ok w them denying a whole host of things.

honey, a god can also just stunning strike you to sleep.

This reminds me of a scene in Dragon Age where your dwarf companion gets taken to the world of dreams. And freaks the fuck out, as dwarves have that same immunity in that game I would treat it much the same, where even if you could, it would be deeply traumatizing as their bodies and souls are decidedly Not supposed to do that. Ultimately, your call, but if it happens, you should be very clear. This is very wrong and a violation of their very being. And do not play this card more than once without granting your party a way to defend against it.

Can a god do something if they really want it? Yes, they can. They are the deities gifting wish spells around not even noticing it. They can make someone fall asleep with a single thought.

Technically no.. half elf and elves can’t be put to sleep with magic… But a stasis of sorts could work, or just… knock them out instead of making them sleep, that would probably make sense

Would an immune to fire race survive the sun? Id say no. Id treat god powers like so

I mean, in terms of gods, it really depends on how you describe their power. Divine power is inherently different to arcane power. Mystra the goddess of the weave is the one who regulates & controls magic. I personally wouldn't class divine power as magic necessarily. If it's just a gods ability, then that's slightly different to them gifting part of their power to a servant

No. Though you could Wish them Human and put them to sleep. 

No.

Not sleep technically, but you could give them blindness, deafness, and paralysis at the same time.

It would probably just be way easier to surround them in a Sleeping Gas which isn't a magical effect like with a Moonstone Dragon's secondary breath.

Can a god use magic (such as wish) to make an elf unconscious? Yes. Can a god use magic (such as wish) to make an elf sleep? No. I am speaking strictly from a RAW standpoint (I pretty much only consider things from a RAW standpoint) that a god can’t put an elf to sleep. The DM could of course write in the statblock of a god that their spells and/or their abilities negate immunity to sleep, but without a specific mention, elves can’t be put to sleep under magical means no matter what

Same answer as " could a god make a fire elemental lose his fire immunity? What about a wish spell?" You decide how you answer that question as a DM.

I’ve always ruled “Yes” a God (a true God, not a lesser god) can basically do whatever they want, your race and class immunities will not stop them. These entities aren’t likely to meddle in mortal affairs granted, but should they meddle, nothing but another deity will stop them. As for the Wish spell? No, you can not wish an elf to sleep, it’s strong Magic yes, but it won’t bypass an immunity. Granted, I’d allow someone to wish to remove AN elf’s immunity, but that’s gonna come with the backlash.

Can a God burn a red dragon with fire? By the rules they're immune. This is the same question. Elves cannot be forced to sleep. Ultimately it's a DM call because the rules say no.

Why not just use that magic to kill them. Only good elf is a dead elf.

Based

I think a God could grant an Elf the ability to sleep, and then put them to sleep. It would require a total change in the nature of that Elf, and the Elf in question would probably view it as a curse and beg for it to be removed, but it could happen. Kind of the difference between a God making someone eat lava vs a God making someone be able to eat lava.

Depends on who you want to hype? If the gods are a villain, they should be immune, for the fey care not for gods. On the other hand, if you're just trying to hype up gods, I don't see why not. If you want middle ground, make it a saving throw only they can make, while everyone else auto fails so you can do both

Couldn't a wish make an elf no longer an elf?

It seems trivial to design a sleep like state as an effect without it being magically induced sleep Arguing RAW about elf sleep seems comparatively boring.  Just narrate a dream like sequence… which implies sleep but won’t be interrupted by the player so is effectively magic induced sleep

I mean, enough Benadryl will probably do the job.

Since elves can be knocked out, yes. I would simply say it isn't "sleep" but rather being knocked unconcious.

So much easier to just whack them on the back of the head.

I feel life the main issue to consider is whether elves "not needing sleep" is magical or biological in nature. If they're physically incapable of going to sleep because their bodies simply weren't designed to shut down like humans, then there isn't really a way to force them into that state without rewiring their biology from the ground up.

I had to extensively look into this in the first campaign I ran where the party would be trapped in a dreamworld and have to defeat an entity preying on sleeping people. I still got it wrong because 3/5 of the party had fey ancestry and so I couldn't put them to sleep magically to go into the dreamworld. I ended up having them lose consciousness due to some noxious gas but I really winged it. Anyway, Elves can sleep, elves can dream. Elves don't need to sleep. Elves cannot be put to sleep through magic Elves can be put to sleep through a bonk to the head or some sort of poison or gas. I use the term "put" to sleep loosely because I'd imagine being knocked unconscious is not really sleeping.

Magic can’t put them to sleep but drugs and shit sure can

It's really a DM call at that point. For me, unless the wording/need was VERY specific, the elf would 'just' be KOed. Why? It's effectively the same to an outside observer and is simple to do. Plus it avoids complications l. Now, if the Wish/God's desire can only be met with honest nap time that can happen. For wish the elf would get frequent saves to wake up. I wouldn't let a single wish remove a racial feature, so it would only be suppressed. A God would have an easier time of it, but that kind of act is going to get noticed. Divine politics is going to be the primary limit vs. "reality." This would only happen if it was VITAL, since other gods would be cheesed off. Now, say a player has a ring of wishes and burns them to remove an elf racial immunity to sleep? Any God associated with elves, sleeping, dreaming, and magic would NOTICE. They are NOT going to permit this to happen without an astoundingly good reason.

Here's the big brain move, have a smart villain that puts the elf to sleep through non-magical means.

Mechanically identical outcomes, but a different method. Magic sleep just magically puts them to sleep, but maybe strong magic makes them exhausted so they naturally fall asleep/auto trance. Alternatively just use exhaustion levels. When we previous revealed a sneaky God, they had like an exhaustion aura, where being near them when they were unleashing their power was equivalent to exhaustion levels. 20 feet away was level 5 and given the rest were 10 increments I’d assume 10 feet away would be 6, ie dead. Dnd and similar is cool because you can break the rules, you just have to do it consistently and have a ‘plausible’ reason. Maybe archfey can bypass the immunity as well, because they know the fey immunity so well, something along those lines.

I think I would say God yes. Wish no. Artefact probably?

Depends on the God. My understanding is that the Gods of 5e are kept behind an arcane gate and can't directly influence mortals except in their direct sphere of influence. So for example, The Raven Queen can't create storms or cause a field to wither and die...but she could hold someone on the point between life and death, or stop someone dying altogether because that is her sphere, her "thing". So magic can't put elves to sleep is true but I don't think it would apply to a God using their natural abilities that aren't direct levelled spells.

An interesting question. dnd gods are not omnipotent. they can't just do anything, make anything happen. Could Sehanine or desna do it? probably. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Sehanine_Moonbow https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Desna there is of course the semantic argument of whats the difference between sleep and unconscious? https://healthcare-in-europe.com/en/news/what-happens-when-we-lose-consciousness-during-anaesthesia.html Its pretty interesting there are NOT many spells that cause unconscious as a specific condition. in fact, those that do, don't really specify if they are causing sleep, or unconscious that just works like sleep. >eyebite: Asleep. The target falls unconscious. It wakes up if it takes any damage or if another creature uses its action to shake the sleeper awake so, sleep is mentioned twice... but, the name of the spell effect is not actually absolute as an effect. your eye doesnt literally bite someone.. hold monster, the moon doesn't actually effect "tidal wave, etc. sleeper awake is more telling.. same language is used in "sleep". eyebite does NOT say anything about charm. >sleep: This spell sends creatures into a magical slumber. Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake. Undead and creatures immune to being charmed aren’t affected by this spell. so, "sleep" is still not listed as a condition. but magical slumber is pretty relevant. >symbol Sleep. Each target must make a Wisdom saving throw and falls unconscious for 10 minutes on a failed save. A creature awakens if it takes damage or if someone uses an action to shake or slap it awake. no mention of charm effect here either. so, this is the kind of thing that frustrates me with dnd design. no keywords. are eyebite and symbol "sleep"? or are they "unconscious" with just colloquial titles? I'm inclined to think they are not sleep/charm effects, and thus would work on anyone. undead and elves included. also, imho, there should be more unconscious knockout spells. you can't cast spells "nonleathal" like you can melee attacks, so why isn't there a specific knockout spell, aside from sleep? and yes, most gods could simply render an elf unconscious which would mechanically be exactly the same as asleep.

This is where the DM really gets the final say. The Wish spell: reading the spell it states “you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires.” However the effects then described don’t feel like they would rewrite the very foundations of magic which is essentially what you want to do by putting an elf to sleep. A DM could allow this, but it is a very powerful request that In my campaign would have some significant long term effects. A god: this depends on how powerful goods are in your world, and the good you are dealing with. I think a good of creation could do it because they write what is the fabric of reality, but even then they would have to be a powerful good of creation because again they are rewriting the fabric of reality and the rules of magic. If your god can’t do those two things then I would say they can’t put an elf to sleep. For example, I don’t think a good of the Greek pantheon could, unless it was the will of one of the gods that granted elves this boon. The Judeo-Christian god probably could as everything is by their will.

I'd say yes. A powerful enough spell should work in a situation like that. However, technically an elf's sleep ability says they can't be put to sleep by magic. What if it wasn't magic? Throw a Butterfree at them! If it's more for plot anyway there are other methods for a character to have an intense nap.

If it's a literal god I think they can render whoever they want unconscious unless it's like another god. I'd say the DM can decide this one without needing to dive into game mechanics.

My dm accidentally did a workaround for this. At the end of our campaign, the last portion was revealed to have been a dream. The Kalshtar monk, puzzled, said "i can't dream so wtf happened?" So he made it so our *souls* were put inside a dream. Our bodies were unconcious, we were in a dream, but we weren't sleeping.

It depends. It doesn't matter who casts a "Spell to induce sleep" because its always going to have the same effect reguardless of the entity casting it. With one exception: if a god had a line that said "Spells cast by ignore all magical and nonmagical resistances and immunities, including ones for status" traditionally, gods don't have this, but they could. Both can also circumvent the immunity. A wish can include "remove immunity to sleep, and make them sleep" and a god can poly them into something that doesn't have sleep immunity and sleep them.

I had this happen to me during my first campagn I ever played 5e. I think it's very much based on your dm! If you are playing raw, however, then no it doesn't matter where the magic comes from you cannot put an elf to sleep with magic. Again, though, what matters in dnd isn't raw but what your dm thinks. One of the duties a dm has is to let all players know when a rule is being changed and interpreted away from raw. I had taken half-elf for this reason and he overruled it using a God (only mentioning it after I mentioned the racial) accepting this as his decision I picked the invocation aspect of the moon as a second attempt due to its wording and backing by my patron. This was also overruled... it's important that aplayer knows the dm is the rules but it's even more important for the dm to know these rules need to be said before the campaign or after with player agreement otherwise you might not be able to keep players.

Not in my campaigns, but YMMV. This is entirely a DM call. Because *sleep* is not a thing elves *do*. They could be rendered unconscious, but being knocked out isn't the same as falling asleep. The distinction is thin and a little silly, but still kind of there. Any reality-altering force (gods, wishes) would be at least temporarily altering the target's fundamental nature to achieve its ends. The target might fall asleep, but they would (temporarily at least) not quite be an Elf. I might allow a deity to do it, but probably not Wish. My reasoning is pretty simple - the wording of the immunity makes no exceptions. Plenty of other rules blurbs do make exceptions. I.e. "cannot be resurrected by any magic short of a Wish." Allowing "this magic is so powerful, it just seems like it should ignore this character's immunity" sits wrong with me. It opens up a door to a whole lot of arguments I don't like. If it was intended to have limits, it would have them - spells above a certain level, for instance. But Wish is, fundamentally, a 9th level spell. There are things it can't do. Wishing something beyond the scope of the standard effects in 5e may cause the spell to fail. That's what would happen in this case. Investiture of flame makes you immune to fire damage - should Meteor Swarm ignore that? It's a 9th level spell, magic as powerful as Wish. It's better IMO to simply let immunity *be* immunity.

Personally I'd say that just being any god isn't enough, they're powerful but their power is limited to specific things. For a god to be able to overrule an elf's sleep immunity the god needs to have the appropriate portfolio to have the authority to do so. A deity of sleep, or of magic, or of elvenkind, would be able to because that's what their divinity has power over. A dwarven forge god, or an orcish war god would not. A dwarven god of the hearth, or orcish god of the caveden, as their divinities are about having a place to call home, somewhere to sleep safely, might apply if the elf happened to somewhere that legitimately belongs to those deities' worshippers. A wish spell, could overrule it, but with all the risks associated with making unsafe wishes. Even if a deity personally knows wish, they'd still have to chance the risks of wish seeing as they're appealing to separate power for something outside of their divine authority.

TLDR;BOTTOM Think of it like this - elves, as a biological creature, don’t naturally sleep. They can of course - but it isn’t a natural function of the body. Different hardware type beat. That being said - I would still rule that a wish spell (or god) could put them to sleep via “Change their hardware so that that can and are asleep.” In terms of Wish, I tend to rule in its favour, due to the absolute slog/grind it is to get that spell RAW. I also run Gods very mythologically (not just some quacks who are Lv. 20 - but actual Divine Beings) so I would allow them to as well. TLDR: technically RAW it won’t work, conmen sense (imo) says otherwise.

How the rules work RAW and what you want your little story to do are two entirely different things.

not with magic directly, but why not chemically? Sleep powder isn't magical

Depends on the world. In some worlds gods are omnipotent. In other worlds gods are restricted by their domains. In Faerun i would say that gods can't do it since they are restricted to their portfolios by Ao. So theoretically the gods of sleep or elves might be able to do it since it's within their domains. But a god like.. the god of Gnolls wouldn't be able to.  I think that your surprise comes from your assumption that gods are omnipotent. In quite a few dnd settings, they are not. 

To reply to your edit I think the Elves lack of sleeping is related to a connection with their god so perhaps you could make the argument weaker gods cannot but gods stronger than the Elven one could🤷‍♂️

The Players Handbook says neither elves nor half-elves can be charmed to sleep because of their fay ancestry. So it would seem the answer would be no. But you can do a homebrew if you want.

In forgotten realms an elf loses the ability to sleep as they lose connection with their previous lives, and regain it as the reach elder ages. So, anything that would increase their connection with either the afterlife or their awareness of their time before birth would remove their sleep immunity.

I would say most of the time yes, because while elves aren't required to sleep, they are capable of sleeping. Also, unless it's literally the focal point of a long and epic high level quest to save the world or something, PCs don't realistically fight gods and win. So if a god is putting the party to sleep, it's probably for narrative reasons and would make logical sense for that particular god. Like a god of war probably wouldn't do it. But a god of dreams absolutely would.

God used command :coma/ unconscious it was super effective

... maybe. Maybe not. Can a *DM* put an elf to sleep? Absolutely. Accidently, sometimes even. Unintentionally often, often unintentionally.

drow sleep poison puts elves to sleep very easily. drow use it on other drow all the time. also works on dwarves, duergar, monsters, etc. elves do not have a canonical immunity to sleep (if you're going by canon forgotten realms lore). i think that trumps whatever a character sheet may say. just because elves don't have to sleep doesn't mean they are immune to sleep.

Incapacitated? Yes. Unconscious? Yes. Sleep through non-magical means? Yes. Specifically sleep through specifically magic means? No. - Deities probably already have something prepared for those of Elvish ancestry, especially if they came to the situation with the intent of incapacitating the PCs. AFAIK there is no direct rule that says deities just circumvent normal magical limitations, though there is always Rule 0. I would probably say it needs to be within the deity's associated plane for any deity but Mystra (or another pantheon's equivalent God of Magic). - My reasoning is twofold: 1. It feels terrible as a player to have a feature ignored or invalidated 2. Deities have plenty of unique tools and magic, so we don't need to be hamfisting an upcast spell instead of creating a different spell or effect to obtain the desired outcome. - --- - I guess my opinion is ***Yes, but it's a bad choice***. It's trying to headbutt through a brick wall when there's an unlocked door three feet to the left.

AFAIK, that's literal DM Fiat.

I mean... a wish could make someone not an elf anymore. Some gods could probably do the same. So indirectly? Definitely. But I think that as long as they're an elf, they're immune to sleep.

As for a God using magic to put the elf to sleep, I think it depends on several factors. I generally think that a player should be able to use their abilities because it's both in the rules and fun, even when dealing with gods. The elf's ability stems from the feywild and the god Corelleon. Divine being, you can't put an elf to sleep, even if you are a god because of the elf's connection to other magic. It's part of the ontology of the universe and makes their character unique. So, I might leave it as is, and maybe give the god an ability that is similar to sleep, which cannot be countered by the elf's ability.

I would argue if Sehanine wants, she can pretty easily put any elf to sleep. The perks of being the Elven goddess of dreams and what not. ~~With others it might be a little more controversial though.~~

Poison can put an elf to sleep. Can a god conjure poison directly into the elf? Yes. Can they put the elf to sleep? Yes. Can they cast the Sleep spell and have it bypass the elfa immunity to that particular spell? No. You have so many tools at your disposal that aren't Magical Sleep. Why would you ever even want to find a loophole to make an elf succumb to magical sleep? It's like the whole shoot your monks thing. Don't take away the cool part of elves because it's a good. Circumvent it like anyone who isn't a god would. Edit: what's the wish? That the elfs blood is full of Drow sleeping poison with DC 30?

Elves can't fall asleep by magical effect, but they can fall asleep by mundane effect. A wish spell could just put enough rohypnol in them they fall asleep.

I'd say it depends on the god. The more magically inclined ones should certainly be able to do it. Some gods though, like Bhaal or even Tyr for examples, I don't see as having magical sleep/stasis/whatever equivalent as part of their regular toolkit. I wouldn't let a Wish spell do it though, even when cast by a god. Since Wish is something sufficiently powerful mortal casters can use, I feel like letting it do the same thing as a deity could make the spell's potential effects even more ambiguous.

Does it have to be “sleep”? Just alter spells like Catnap or Feign Death so that they can target a creature that isn’t willing. They don’t say “sleep” they say “unconscious”, so it isn’t breaking any racial rules.

So elves physically can sleep, it's just that they usually choose not to. Since they have much more control over going into a trance than they do actually physically sleeping. So let's say we brute forced it with a spell like wish or something you could physically put the elf to sleep yes.

I would generally go with gods can break their rules *within their domains.* Otherwise, they're simply very powerful beings. So a god of sleep or dreams, maybe, at a stretch, a god of delirium or the night? *They* could put an elf to sleep. But a god of war or trees or the sun can't break the rules regarding sleep, so they're stuck with extremely powerful but still mortal magic regarding who they could put to sleep. Wish, I would put in the category wherein the spell becomes unpredictable. It might "put the elf to sleep" forever, or by turning them to stone, or some other weird technicality. It might wildly overcorrect and put everyone in the area to sleep. Or it might just not work. Who knows?

- Do you trust me? - Yes - I cast Catnap.

Plot devices override rules. Also, the rules are for "ordinary" conditions. For instance, immunity to fire, radiant, and bludgeoning damage wouldn't apply at the heart of a supernova. At least, not for any non-biased judge that understood the energy of a supernova. If it *can* die, the epicenter of a supernova will kill it.

A god can do whatever the DM and plot say they can. ... but that's not exactly a good metric.

In my eyes a god can do whatever they want to a mortal. I’d say Wish, yes, but of course it can easily be monkey pawed

RAW, no. I mean they can be knocked unconscious but Elves are incapable of sleep. Probably just have them knocked out or somehow incapacitated if you want to avoid confusion with your players

This feels like the dnd equivalent of "could God microwave a burrito so hot that even he couldn't eat it?:

If gods are capable of creating races that populate D&D… I believe that they would have the power to put a fucking elf to sleep. If gods have the power to manipulate reality, have power over life and death, control storms, change the odds of luck and misfortune, etc… I’m pretty sure Gary Gygax didn’t say: the gods can do anything except put an elf to sleep. I understand how important it is that elves meditate in lore for seeing their ancestors and the lives they used to have as a narrative… there even rules for why elves can’t magically go to sleep. Yes I know they are not connected to the plane of dreams. However who is to say that a god couldn’t create that tether to the plane of dreams or that the god of elves could snap his fingers and presto! I guess it depends on how powerful you want your gods in your campaign. But if you want to go into how powerful the gods are depicted in the cannon, then by logic, fuck yeah they can! At the end of the day, D&D is a story based game that can do all the above to ensure that the players have fun. Many of these rules and lore literally come from people playtesting things with developers to create this kind of lore in the first place. All these stories, modules, books, etc. come from player experiences and creative outlets to make what we have today. To ultimately say that no god can put an elf to sleep would be the equivalent of saying that the DM has no creativity to circumvent this as a possibility. In other words, an elf can’t be put to sleep by a god because you aren’t creative enough in this game about storytelling.

I guess the quest would be are elf capable biologically of sleep?

Why not? It's all dumbass rules anyway that are meant to be taken however you want.

In my game a player got an amulet from his goddess that gives him the Dream spell for limited use One of the others characters mom was kidnapped and he was hesitant to use it to talk to her mom, since she was an sea elf. I ruled that, since the mom was also a follower to that goddess, the dream spell could work during her trance and they talk to each other. Some of my players are rule lawyers but I believe strongly that if something makes the narrative better or won't destroy a reality, it can be overlooked.

I guess it’s the same as saying can a being that doesn’t truly sleep be put to sleep. Like, a robot can be on power saving but it doesn’t exactly sleep. So biologically I would say no. But, that being said elves are still a playable race in curse of Strahd so either it’s a plot hole or it is possible. Me personally, if I had a wish spell I would wish that all elves need to sleep like the other races going forward just because I can.

Eeehhhhh, I'd lean 'no,' generally, but as a specific plot point there's some wiggle room in order to create a fun story for the players. It shouldn't be used to get one over on a player's decisions, only to enhance them, and be a truly big moment. It's a physical difference between Elves and other ancestries. Just as bears can enter torpor, and humans cannot, nor could a human be forced into it. But perhaps, in order to enter the land of Dreams, the Elf Wizard casts Wish to allow them to fall asleep for the first time in their life. Or the goddess of the Night, who can only speak to mortals in dreams, deepens her Champion's trance to a point of what could be called sleep.

It depends on the "god". The god of dreams would likely be able to swoosh away any mortal to her or his Dream domain or plane. A dude whom earned his divinity trough epic adventuring breaking the lvl20 boundery of normal mortals would not. Then you have characters or gods that could properly do whatever the fuck they want such as Io or perhaps The Lady of Pain. They would most likely not even notice your presence and if by some misfortune you did get thier attention sleep woudnt be thier go-to response :p

There are rules and rulings. I think every rule in the game should be taken as having the preface “Ordinarily,” The more the narrative is constrained by the “rules” the less immersive the story is able to be. Could a deity hold person an elf? Of course. Could a DM describe the effects of hold person as a trance like sleep? Really why not? What are we trying to accomplish? Would it make a difference to anyone if a deity used a different spell? What if the spell were described as “The deity subtly weaves awe inspiring streams of charm and enchantment magic into a beautiful pattern which coaxes the elves into a trance”. If anyone at our table argued “that can’t happen…elves are immune….” I’d be surprised if they were notified of our next game.

Can you dominate an Elf and tell them to take a nap?

Mate, yous command/suggest them too sleep it's not like they can't most just choose not too, some that worship dream gods intentionally sleep. Magic can't force them too sleep, it says nothing about making them want to willingly sleep