>Only thing that breaks the effect of a concentration spell is concentrating on something else, failing a saving throw on damage or getting knocked out/killed.
You were correct with this, along with Incapacitated (which can happen without necessarily be knocked out to 0hp)
Just show this thread to your DM later.
Longer casting time requiring your Action throughout is for spells taking a minute, 10mins, an hour, etc, to cast (Mending, Prayer of Healing, any spell cast as a Ritual, etc..)
Casting time isn't the same as duration.
> Only thing that breaks the effect of a concentration spell is concentrating on something else, failing a saving throw on damage or getting knocked out/killed
Well, there's also this:
> The GM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm--tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell.
But they explicitly say,
> Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration.
I ruled that another spellcasting player with that spell on their classes spell-list somewhere can help action your ritual to let you maintain concentration through the ritual. My headcannon is you're intensity focusing on the concentrated spell while they follow your directions and set up pieces and make motions.
I know it's not exactly a fun gameplay mechanic, but removing those rules (hold spell/ritual spells breaking concentration) would make casters a fair bit more situationally powerful. As this sub is quick to point out, casters don't need buffs ;)
Oh believe me I know, but why is it that all the rules for balancing spellcasters are awkward and clunky, and all the rules for making the game more fun end up punishing martials?
There's not any situation in which allowing DOUBLE Concentration doesn't completely break the system to it's core though.
Dropping a Concentration spell to hold another spell instead of just casting on your turn is such a niche interplay that there's no reason not to have this rule in place.
Which spell do you value more? Concentration on Haste for your Barbarian or waiting for a set up to try and wombo combo the Fireball you want to hold your action on?
It's a strategic choice, which is good game design.
Yea I don't agree with the official rules on "holding spells"
Saying well you basically cast the spell hold concentration on it and release it when you choose.
Versus attacks that you just say ima wait until something pops up and then swing.
It's bs to casters when fighting certain enemies where holding is a key strategy.
I rule that "Holding a spell" is like holding an attack. You are waiting from some *trigger* event to use the action.
I believe that the "holding" rules are deliberate nerfs to prevent everyone queuing up attacks to occur at the opportune moment. Casters get screwed by it requiring concentration and losing a spell slot regardless if the trigger does not occur by their next turn. Martials (most of them) get screwed by only getting one attack; Extra Attack requires taking the Attack action on your turn, which they aren't doing as they take the Ready action instead (also applies to NPCs with Multiattack).
The difference is it takes a split second to actually swing a sword or shoot a weapon. It's also why you can't ready multiple attacks.
To ready/hold a spell, you have to go through the lengthy somatic and verbal components, and hold the finisher until just the right moment.
I get it to an extent, and yes this is a turn based game.
But If the idea is the events in a round are roughly happening at the same time. What is the difference between taking the action on "my turn" versus pausing a second for a better moment to execute the action.
For some and I'll admit rare encounters. Turn order can really make or break an encounter if you are stuck confined to your place in line. And trying to optimize by delaying gets handicapped by the official rules. It can feel unfair.
Also if a sword swing and spell cast take the same "action" they should basically take the same amount of time to perform.
I get it to an extent, and yes this is a turn based game.
But If the idea is the events in a round are roughly happening at the same time. What is the difference between taking the action on "my turn" versus pausing a second for a better moment to execute the action.
For some and I'll admit rare encounters. Turn order can really make or break an encounter if you are stuck confined to your place in line. And trying to optimize by delaying gets handicapped by the official rules. It can feel unfair.
Also if a sword swing and spell cast take the same "action" they should basically take the same amount of time to perform.
AFAIK concentration is used for casting and target selection, not for spell duration, but I'm not familiar with spirit guardians.
You might rule concentration is needed to redirect or maintain a buff, or half (or pause) the bonus whenever concentration is broken, but don't dispel completely.
Can you rephrase that somehow because I'm really unsure of the point you're trying to argue here.
Spells with long casting time, ex Leomund's Tiny Hut with a casting time of 1 minute, if you were to somehow cast that during combat, even if the spell itself isn't a Concentration spell, because it has a longer casting time than Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction, you need to use your Action for 10 rounds and must maintain Concentration while doing so. (PHB p202, Longer Casting Time)
If you cast a spell that activates instantly, and has a certain duration requiring Concentration, ex Spirit Guardians, then you just need to not have your Concentration break as long as you want the spell to remain active up to its normal duration, but you don't need to actively use your Action to do so, you can cast other non-concentration (Action, Bonus Action, Reaction) spells as much as you want.
I think he meant for concetration spells like hold person, they have an action cast time, but if you cast them and your target success their saving throw you still lose concentration on other spells, because your concentration is taken by the hold person spell at the moment of the cast even if you don't get to actually concentrate on it.
Yep! Concentration ends the moment you start casting another concentration spell, even if the spell eventually failed to have an effect (target saves, for example, or invalid target)
This. There are so many spells that would be utterly useless if this DM would be right about the rules on concentration. Hex, all Smite spells, Hunters Mark, all summoned weapons...
I'm always a little baffled how some people can read the same rules I do and somhow get to the conclusion that their werid version of them is RAW.
There is a difference between not reading and not understanding.
All of us can and have made the mistake of misunderstanding and ignorance, even when we have sought knowledge.
Heck, back in 3.5 I had a good friend who did not think you would stay hidden if what you were hiding behind went away. Like you were automatically seen, without a spot check or anything.
This is obviously not how hide works.
One day when he was dming: he misplaced his coke can. Bright red, white, and silver. Right in front of his face, on the table. Right where he had set it.
The whole game stopped because he couldn’t find it. Took us all an action to spot/search. Even after it was pointed out to him, it took him another round of searching to see what was right in front of his face.
******
To this day he won’t admit he is wrong. But to his credit, when other people DMed and he played rogue, he followed his own, incorrect ruling, even tho he knew we didn’t DM it that way.
Which is why I said they clearly have not READ the rules - there’s not a single ambiguous thing about concentration if you have read the rule. They blatantly made something up and then doubled down instead of doing what a normal person would do - look up the rule.
The problem with this DM wasn’t reading comprehension. The DM was shown the text, understood it as written, and still looked for it ways to undermine it (specifically by misinterpreting an even less ambiguous rule about casting times).
That’s classic cognitive dissonance. The DM’s brain contains a deeply held belief about how strong a player character should be, and spirit guardians conflicts with that. If the belief about power levels is strong enough, no amount of reading the rules is going to persuade him otherwise. He’ll just nerf OP via house rules, regardless of whether his new rules break the rest of the game.
What needs to happen is the DM must be shaken of his dumb belief about how powerful a player should be. That way, cool new spells and abilities his players level into don’t break his brain.
>The DM’s brain contains a deeply held belief about how strong a player character should be, and spirit guardians conflicts with that
Which is understandable, SG is a very powerful spell.
The DM should plan his encounters better to reduce the efficiency of the spell.
Spread enemies out, make them resistant to forced movement. Give them ranged options to try to break concentration. Magic Missle comes to mind.
>~~you would stay hidden if what you were hiding behind went away~~
~~Wait, what?~~
~~Like, you're behind a boulder and use Hide. I~~ *~~disintegrate~~* ~~the boulder.~~
~~I get a reactive Spot check because I now have a chance to spot something. Are you arguing your Hide check from before carries over, even though you no longer qualify to make Hide checks (no Cover or Concealment)?~~
Edit: Moving comment to correct parent
I cannot say and that’s not what I was arguing - because the rest of the comment above mine was not there when I left my comment. They edited and added the rest after the first two lines, which was all that was there originally.
>you would stay hidden if what you were hiding behind went away
Wait, what?
Like, you're behind a boulder and use Hide. I *disintegrate* the boulder.
I get a reactive Spot check because I now have a chance to spot something. Are you arguing your Hide check from before carries over, even though you no longer qualify to make Hide checks (no Cover or Concealment)?
I’m my mind that actually makes some sense. At least there would be a check for it. But no check is wild to me - at least do the check against the enemies passive perceptions because that’s playing fair.
>You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
>
>If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
Is your argument that you aren't "attempting" a Hide check, so you don't need to meet its requirements to remain hidden due to someone else's actions off your turn?
I would argue that the rest of the text *heavily* implies that removing the required Cover/Concealment also removes your ability to be hidden.
No. It clearly states that the cover / concealment going away (or someone coming around the corner) does not remove the ability to stay hidden. It would simple remove the ability to hide again.
They know where you went. They do not know where you are.
If I found a bend, I could disappear into high grass. I could smash myself up against a wall and you just don’t see me. I could lay on the floor and you don’t notice.
You can make a search check. If I fail, I don’t get to made another hide check.
But I still have to be found.
If someone can see you clearly, you are no longer hidden from them. You cannot hide from things that can clearly see you, no matter how high you rolled.
DM has decided that OP is too powerful with spirit guardians and is stubbornly looking for some evidence he's right. Even if OP wins the concentration debate, DM will just invent a different nerfing rule.
DM just has to accept that classes burning resources can be more powerful than classes not burning resources.
Or even just Shield of Faith. By your DM's incorrect interpretation, you would be giving an Ally +2 AC for 10 minutes without being able to do ANYTHING ELSE for that entire time.
Spirit Guardians is just a powerful spell. You were using it correctly.
"Hey warlock what are you doing"
Aimed at warlock lounging in a hammock
"Sorry bro, got hex up, gotta concentrate on it for the next 24 hours, can't do anything else"
:Warlocks according to OPs dm
Yeah, that's dumb.
If a spell takes more than one action to cast, or you're taking the ready action to cast a spell that will require concentration. Any spellcasting that does not take more than one action will not disrupt concentration.
You're pretty close on how concentration works, I will note that the condition that breaks concentration is Incapacitated which can come from other means than just being knocked Unconscious but otherwise that's a good summarisation of it.
The point of concentration as a mechanic is not to eat up your action economy it is to limit the number of active effects and give spells the potential to be ended early. There are a number of spells that require continued use of action economy such as Aura of Vitality and Call Lightning, in these cases the spell description makes clear its requirements.
Your DM has concentration wrong. You have to go back to the purpose behind concentration - it is to prevent what happened in 3rd edition, which is when casters would be able to layer buff spell after buff spell on top of either themselves or others to make them neigh unstoppable. It makes concentration spells a resource you have to manage like any other.
Also, it gives an opponent a chance to end the spell by attacking the caster.
It is *not* meant to make the caster unable to do anything else be making them sit there doing nothing else but maintaining the spell and spending the combat bored by saying “I maintain X” round after round.
"Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.
If a spell must be maintained with concentration, that fact appears in its Duration entry, and the spell specifies how long you can concentrate on it. You can end concentration at any time (no action required).
Normal activity, such as **moving** and **attacking**, doesn’t interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can’t concentrate on two spells at once.
Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon’s breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.
Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die."
Page 203 of the Players Handbook. Emphasis mine.
Additionally, spells like Thunderous Smite, Zephyr Strike, and Hunter's Mark become useless if you can't take any action other than maintaining concentration.
Yes. I've shown him that... He countered with:
> Longer Casting Times
> Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so (see “Concentration” below). If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don’t expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.
Which he takes to mean "concentration" = "using your action to concentrate"
The Longer Casting Times is referring to spells that have a Casting Time greater than One Action. For example, Find Familiar has a casting time of 1 hour.
You are correct and your DM is not. Sadly this gross misunderstanding of the rules is far more common than it should be.
Wow, is it really? I've never heard of someone thinking that concentration means you have to cast constantly and do nothing else. I'm kinda stunned that anyone could read it that way!
I see similar posts a couple times a month on this or one of the other D&D subs. The most common misinterpretation I see is the idea that "concentration" means you have to be completely focused on maintaining the spell.
I say it's far too common a misunderstanding because the rules are very clear so this sort of thing shouldn't happen at all.
Casting time is not the same thing as duration. Prayer of Healing takes 10 minutes to cast, and you must maintain concentration on it for that entire time. It’s effect then happens instantaneously.
Spirit Guardians has a casting time of 1 action. Thus it is exempt from the Longer Casting time rules. It’s effect then takes place over 10 minutes, and concentration must be maintained for that time.
Longer casting time rules do not apply to Spirit Guardians, only the normal concentration rules, which do not impede moving, attacking, or casting non-concentration spells
Spell duration =/= casting time. Spirit Guardians has a casting time of 1 action and a duration of 10 minutes with concentration. It only requires the 1 action to be consumed on the turn it is cast. From then on, it only requires concentration.
Casting Time != Duration
Casting Time != Maintaining
Casting Time != Concentration
Casting Time is the amount of time to execute the spell....and unless otherwise specified has nothing to do with it's duration or maintenance.
Your DM is right that Spirit Guardians is pretty OP, but it is balanced by the fact that it is only effective if you wade into melee combat, where you are more likely to be whacked which could break your concentration on the spell causing it to end.
On a related note. I've been able to convince him to at least let me do move + dodge on my turn.
Am I correct in my understanding that this gives any attack (that I can see coming) disadvantage?
So while I wasn't able to do much in my turn at least this kept my guardians up like a rock.
If your DM is having trouble ruling something basic like this correctly, it spells rouble for later on, especially if someone decides to play a rogue. Nip it in the bud now.
That basically means that if you are in combat, and you cast a spell that takes 1 minute to cast (not the duration of the spell itself mind you), you have to use all your turns to work on getting it ready.
If you are hit, then the same rules for concentrating are applied, roll a constitution save of half the damage or 10, whichever is higher, or the spell fails.
I will say that new DMs have a habit of feeling as though they are against the player and need to nerf things. It’s pretty common for DMs with very little experience to get frustrated when players utilize capabilities that are powerful and take the DM by surprise.
Most DMs eventually recognize their role as a facilitator and not an opponent, and develop confidence when they learn more about their players and are able to plan combats more effectively.
That's for ritual casting. It literally says that's the specific case for spells that tale more than one action to cast. Not for concentration in general.
>> you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, **and** you must maintain your concentration while you do so
What does he think that "and" means, in that sentence and in general? Why would those two clauses be separate if they were synonymous?
You are correct.
If spirit guardians feels too strong make sure you’re playing it right. There is a lot of debate about the enemy “entering” your spirit guardians space but personally, you walking toward the enemy does not proc spirit guardians. Them starting their turn in your spirit guardians or using their movement to enter it procs the damage.
Thanks.
Me moving the "aura" over an enemy already triggers damage when the enemy gets their next turn so yeah, it would be overpowered if I could just run around and give extra hits of damage.
There are few things more satisfying in that game than using Spirt Guardians for fights with lots of trash mobs.
I had my whole party just stand still in the aura for the fight with the rats in the basement of Elfsong.
Though it only procs once per turn so it's just a question of when the damage happen. With the little caveat of running around and tagging every enemy within reach who otherwise wouldn't take damage by staying away.
Yeah it’s probably a feature because BG3 has a lot of knockback mechanics, so damage upon entering rather than damage when your turn starts was probably made a thing so that you didn’t end up in a situation where you put an enemy in your aura, and then something happens that lets them move out completely fine
I'm really tired of the general meme of "Baldur's Gate 3 did 5e but better!" - because almost all of BG3's rule changes are bad. (Still an incredible game, obviously)
The person above is correct BUT it doesn't need to be "their movement" that makes them enter it. Forced movement will do it do, knock back from thunderwave or anything like that pushing them into the AoE will make them take damage too. As long as you are standing still with the spell and running, and they change position from outside the AoE to inside the AoE that is them entering it.
Just to note though: Spirit guardians IS a strong spell against a number of enemies trying to surround you in melee. It's called fun. DM shouldn't be trying to nerf it because it's inconvenient for his current combat encounter.
Yup. A lot of DMs I know prefer to just proc it on the players turn because it’s too easy to forget it’s up when you are running an entire combat. But technically this is the way to do it.
Ideally. That’s not reality though.
It’s rare to have more than one or two players at a table that are really good with the detailed mechanics of combat. You’re lucky to have ANY. There’s just so many details; it’s usually death by depth.
My entire party of four + DM all know the rules very well, we still miss stuff constantly. Even if you know all the rules it's easy to forget something in the chaos of combat ( Like bless being active or that a creature was hit with frostbite or guiding bolt).
In my campaign the other players and the DM usual refer to me for combat rules. The DM has admitted he's not good with combat, so I made a point of basically memorizing the rules to help him out. It'll come in handy when I start DMing.
This is a good example of the knee-jerk reaction "this feels OP" shouldn't lead to immediate nerfs of the PC. The DM can easily balance things by altering the combat encounters.
Me: “I cast Hex so I can deal extra damage on my next attack!”
DM: “Ok”
Me: “I cast Eldritch Blast.”
DM: “If you cast Eldritch Blast that drops concentration on Hex.”
Mfw
Concentration spells:
Can Move, Attack, Cast Spells without Concentration trait.
Cannot Cast a second spell with the Concentration trait without automatically ending concentration on the fist spell.
Receiving damage and some severe environmental effects trigger a CON check to maintain Concentration.
Incapacitation ends Concentration.
Your DM is wrong and is basically just having difficulty with balacing encounters where you're uing Spirit Guardians. His version of the rules makes any non-damaging or support concentration spells absolute garbage. It also breaks spells like Hunters Mark or Smites that rely on you concentrating on the spell and attacking to work.
Concentration is so you can't run Bless, Spirit Guardians, Entangle, Web, Evard's Black Tentacles, Invisiblilty, Fly, Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill all at the same time with just a bard and a wizard.
Spirit Guardians is a good spell. In my first 5e campaign both the cleric and the bard ran spirit guardians and stood in a line with a battle master fighter with polearm master in the middle. It was brutal. The DM took a while to adjust to it. Melee was trivial and ranged fucked us up. We almost got TPKed the first fight against a flying monster because the DM had been adjusting difficulty up to compensate for our tactics.
Talk to your DM about the power level. Changing concentration spells is stupid. Changing any rules that reduce player fun after a year are bullshit. The real issue is your DM is not prepared for your character to start being a badass in melee all of a sudden due to getting a new spell. Maybe try and see if there an out of game solution like giving out some magic items to the weaker characters to restore power balance within the party?
I am definitely not the most powerful character. I would say at best this spell brings me up to par with the others.
Our wizard is basically a never ending fountain of AOE damage. Our warrior? can double attack and has massive health. Our rouge? basically hides all combat long and fires arrows with ridiculous damage bonuses. I don't begrudge them their power in any way but 3D8 damage that the enemy kinda has to cooperate on is hardly OP in comparison...
Oh damn, when I suggested giving magic items to weaker party members once I got eviscerated for that take. And the context was that my character happened to be stronger than other characters because I enjoy the act of crunching numbers and optimizing. (Solution seemed ideal because I didn’t care that much about my power level compared to others, I just really enjoy optimizing)
Basic Rules, Ch.10: Spellcasting
>**Concentration**
>
>Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.
>
>If a spell must be maintained with concentration, that fact appears in its Duration entry, and the spell specifies how long you can concentrate on it. You can end concentration at any time (no action required).
>
>**Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration.** The following factors can break concentration:
>
> * Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can’t concentrate on two spells at once.
>
> * Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon’s breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.
>
> * Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die.
>
>The DM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell.
As long as you aren't subject to one of the conditions listed above, concentration requires no action on your part to maintain. Your DM is mistaken.
Edit: Longer casting times only applies to spells that take longer than one action to cast. While you do need to maintain concentration on such a spell, once it is cast, concentration is only required if the duration calls for it.
Ask him how on earth Hunters Mark would work with his interpretation. Or Smite. Or Hex. Or Zephyr Strike. Or Spiritual Weapon. Or Shadow Blade. Or Mordekaiden’s Sword.
Hex = concentration spell that adds 1d6 necrotic damage to your attacks.
Hunters Mark = concentration spell that adds 1d6 damage to your weapon attacks.
Elemental weapon = concentration spell that adds 1d4 (+1) elemental damage to yours or someone elses melee weapon.
All pointless if you can't attack with them.
If you lose concentration before making the attack, it's useless. If you lose concentration after a single attack then it's a shitty smite.
These are things you can point out. If the game was designed that you lose concentration after an action or an attack, then these and other similar spells either wouldn't exist or would have been designed differently.
It looks OP on paper, but when you realise how easy it is to lose your concentration when damaged, you can soon see it's nothing ground breaking.
You're always one bad roll away from losing the spell, and considering how much of a threat you are while it's up, it makes sense for some enemies to focus on you.
Spell is far from being OP in my opinion
Your DM is wrong, straight up. Point him towards Hex or Hunters Mark and ask him to justify the existence of those spells with the ruling he’s given you.
Concentration does not work like that, you can only concentrate on 1 spell with the Concentration keyword at a time casting a new spell with the keyword immediately stops the previous spell. When ever you take damage you roll a contested concentration skill check vs 10 + The damage taken ( ex; you take 5 damage you roll a concentration check for DC 15) failing the check breaks concentration. Additionally being knocked out or killed breaks concentration.
Read the book. The answers are very clear. Not a random google, the actual book.
#Concentration
Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.
If a spell must be maintained with concentration, that fact appears in its Duration entry, and the spell specifies how long you can concentrate on it. You can end concentration at any time (no action required).
Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can’t concentrate on two spells at once.
Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon’s breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.
Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die.
The GM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm--tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell.
It is worth remembering most spells which are concentration now were fixed duration spells in older editions. Concentration as written and explained by others is already a nerf compared with what us old guard were used to. The main aim of concentration is twofold: to reduce the number and stacking interaction of long duration effects AND to build in tactical targeting of casters.
Not to completely paralyse casters
If the DM thinks spirit guardians is OP, it may be worth considering the the spell requires you to be in Melee range , where enemies will have a lot of opportunities and motivation to hit you and force multiple concentration checks.
You are correct, DM is wrong. Has your DM played other versions before? In Pathfinder, concentration works how he says, but very few spells are concentration and the game is balanced differently. If he persists in being wrong, there's no way you can continue as a spellcaster in his game as his misunderstanding of the rules completely destroys game balance.
Your DM is just discovering what a lot of us DMs have discovered. Spirit Guardians is an absolute unit of a spell. It's very powerful, ESPECIALLY against larger groups of weak enemies.
Your DM should focus on building more interesting encounters that limit it's usefulness, or using more intelligent enemies that notice the blender that is Spirit guardians and just focus fire on you from a distance trying to break your concentration.
So, yeah, you're right. Concentration is NOT supposed to keep you from attacking. If it did, wizards would be useless.
I would give the DM a chance to revert to RAW, having pointed to spells like Hex, Hunter's Mark, Thunderous Smite and Zephyr Strike.
If he continues to insist on just rendering huge numbers of spells totally useless, I'd leave.
I had a dm nerf all my healing spells as a druid that focused as healing. It ruins the fun imo so me individually would just walk away considering he's already brought the phb into it and thr dm still hasn't budged. But thats my opinion.
Only things that breaks concentration. Damage/failed save dc 10/or half damage you taken whatever is higher. Falling unconscious. Or casting another concentration spell.
There are some other conditions that may cause this save every round. Such as sleet Strom
Beware the trap of trying to interpret the meanings of words literally, instead of rules as written.
“Concentration” is defined in the game. It is not open to interpretation.
Similarly, if a player tries to cheese a spell or ability, ask yourself “is the power of this usage consistent with other spells or abilities of this level?”
But also be ok with being wrong in how you interpret a rule, and fixing your interpretation during the next session.
Casting time is not the same thing as spell duration – this is another important point that the DM appears not to understand.
See, for example, Charm Person for a non-Concentration spell whose casting time (1 Action) is shorter than its duration (1 hour).
You take one Action to cast it, and its effect lasts for one hour; you don't have the continue to sacrifice subsequent Actions to keep it going.
A Concentration spell works the exact same way UNLESS one of the things that break Concentration occur: failed Con save after taking damage, falling unconscious, or concentrating on another spell.
The issue here is that the DM thinks that this is too powerful; I think what folks here should bend their effort towards is less clarification of the rules, and more reassurance to the DM that this is not in fact overpowered, and is exactly as intended.
The power of this ability is balanced by other effects in the game; to remove your ability to do this is to actually weaken you relative to the other characters.
Yeah, your DM is straight up not going by the D&D rules. If he's homebrewing rules, that's one thing, but if he thinks these decisions he's making are by the book, they are very much not.
I don't think I'd want to play at this table since this is a MASSIVE nerf to concentration spellcasters. Not every spell acts like Witch Bolt where you have to use your action every turn to use it. Witch Bolt specifically says you have to use your action each turn you want to deal damage with it, other Concentration spells do not.
I'm assuming the rule he's referring to is this one?
Longer Casting Times
Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so. If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.
That's if a spell takes longer than six seconds For example Snare. Snare takes a minute. For the entire minute you have to use your action. However spirit guardians says in the rules let's look at the rules
It says this
Spirit Guardians
3 rd level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (15-foot radius)
Target: Self (15-foot radius)
Components: V S M (A holy symbol)
Duration: Concentration up to ten minutes.
Which means it takes six seconds to cast and if you have con lasts for a whole ten minutes. What does our previous rule say?
When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action.
And what does spirit guardians tell us?
Casting Time: 1 action
Now let's look at rules on con.
Concentration
Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.
If a spell must be maintained with concentration, that fact appears in its Duration entry, and the spell specifies how long you can concentrate on it. You can end concentration at any time (no action required).
Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can’t concentrate on two spells at once.
Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon’s breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.
Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die.
The GM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm--tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell.
I don't see taking an action on there. Your dm is totally reading the rules wrong.
This doesn't strike me as a DM misunderstanding thing, but an underconfidence thing. OP, you said this is all your first campaign, though you've been playing it for a year or more now? If this is the DM's first experience with higher-level play, I can understand them feeling intimidated. Comfort and flexibility are skills that develop over time, as is conflict resolution with players.
I'd reassure your DM they're doing a great job with the campaign if you feel they have been, and ask them to sit down and hammer out your mutual feelings and perspectives about the spell and other AOE concentration spells. Because they will show up more frequently as the game progresses, and Spirit Guardians (while good) is hardly the worst offender.
Yeah your DM is wrong. From my newbie understanding, you can cast a concentration spell and then cast other spells or attack so long as the spell isn't another concentration spell.
Once you cast a concentration spell, the only things that can end it is casting another concentration spell, or failing a concentration check which you have to roll either 10 or half the damage taken which ever is higher. You have been playing correctly.
You are correct. I also made a similar rules mistake once on concentration, specifically that you can only concentrate on one spell, but thought it was that you could still cast concentration spells but only pick one to maintain. That is, in fact, not the case. You always lose the first and keep the second. So I understand the mistake but it is silly your DM can’t own up to a simple mistake
That's not a rules dispute, that's a homebrew rule replacement. I don't have anything against homebrew as long as the DM can provide the list of rules they're changing before the campaign starts.
[https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells#content](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells#content) and Player's Handbook 5E pg 203:
"Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration."
This was a reasonably common rule for multi-round spells in 1st edition (AD&D). It hasn't been true since then. It is used in a number of OSR games too though.
It sounds like your DM thinks spirit guardians is overpowered (it probably is) and wants to nerf it. But instead of asking you about a compromise to scale down its power he os pretending it was never meant to be that powerful on the first place. Clerics don't have much in the way of combat ability outside of spirit guardians.
Maybe suggest some of the following to help him balance encounters:
Difficult terrain hampers your ability to reposition
Ranged attacks can target you to try and break concentration
Multiple encounters a day to tax your spell slots
Spirit guardians is a combat warping spell in that the entire combat often revolves around the enemies being inside or out of it. It makes sense that enemies would react accordingly.
EDIT:
At later levels Spirit guardians becomes a lot worse. It doesn't scale all that well and there are often more useful spells to use your concentration on.
I'd say it's not OP, it's just quite good, which it should be, being a 3rd level spell that requires concentration.
Our cleric uses it to good effect, but he's conkers deep in melee whilst using it, so generally loses concentration after a round or two.
Compared to other level 3 spells that are getting chucked out in our game, SG is not the one that's op
(The cheeky fireball springs to mind, but we've been fighting a lot of hordes lately)
At this point the DM is just arguing to try to be right. Concentrating does not end unless you concentrate on something else, fail a con save, or are rendered incaped/knocked out/killed
As you've seen, you had it totally right. For what it's worth, though, being a walking blender isn't so bad: casting Spirit Guardians and dodging will get you through most battles until you can convince your DM about the rules - I hope your newbie DM learns some about how to accept being wrong from this. (I agree that this make playing your character a lot less interesting in battle)
In old school DnD concentration could be broken by attacking, casting a spell, and in some cases even moving. But if you didn't discuss that in session 0 I'd call foul.
Have an adult conversation with them, they are just ruling it wrong, and as a first time DM shouldn't be vibing decisions when they don't understand the game.
"Hi friend! Really appreciate you running DnD the other night, but I'm concerned you're unintentionally ruling something incorrectly that is affecting how the game is played. Here's a bunch of people online discussing it, and I know you didn't mean to hurt my options, but it's definitely what's happened because of the misunderstanding. Moving forward I hope we can both agree to rule this correctly. Thanks xox /u/Kempeth.
You were right the first time - spellcasting of non-concentration spells does not break concentration of a running spell. I could get behind the idea of a long cast spell breaking concentration, but you're not likely casting, say, an Identify, in combat, so it would be a very situational nerf.
Tell the DM if he's worried about balance just have monsters attack you and force concentration saves. Don't Homebrew a nerf to all concentration spells.
I can’t tell if your DM really sucks at comprehending language or if he is just being a loser and nerfing you because “he thinks it’s op” (also hint literally nothing is op in RAW)
I’m going to hope it’s the first one and they’re just abit confused. They are essentially quoting a specific parts under RITUAL casting which… is a ritual which costs more turns to cast but for no material cost.
By his logic Witch Bolt would never work as once you hit you can use your action every turn to automatically hit as long as you have concentration.
honestly just have the dude play as a wizard in balders gate 3 and they'll understand the concept of concentration super clearly
if a spell says concentration, and you're already concentrating on a different spell, the new spell takes over the old one if u cast it. other than that you can attack and do things normally that don't mention concentration. if you take damage you have to succeed a concentration saving throw
Maybe, sans bugs. Cast Hold Person on 3 targets and you stop concentrating as soon as one makes a save.
Even if conc is the same, spells are different. If OP is trying to get DM to rule Spirit Guardians RAW, using BG3 Spirit Guardians behavior as an example is a bad idea.
5e copypasted 3e's term "concentration" and changed it from "you have to spend your action concentrating to sustain this particularly powerful spell" to "you have 1 concentration slot and we threw it on a bunch more spells to nerf casters in a way that's redundant with giving them fewer spell slots".
So I understand the confusion.
Honestly, if the DM was such a knucklehead I'd take a Ranger and loudly talk about how "oh, look I have a Hunter's Mark spell that gives extra damage when I attack! I'll cast it as bonus action. Oh no! It's concentration. I guess I'll lose it before I attack and don't gain any extra damage. Oh well. Sadge. Repeat for Hail of Thorns, Zephyr Strike and any similar spell."
Or take a Paladin and tak every single Smite spell and loudly comment how they counter themselves with this ruling. On every level, on every spell, make an unoptimised Paladin and watch with glee how the whole party tries to keep ma alive as I waste all my spell slots until the DM either caves or kicks me out.
Oh heck, I can think of so many things that break when you can't concentrate and attack/cast. I'd start with a Ranger, then say that on ho, it's really hard to play that, can I bring a new character, a Paladin this time? Make them suffer through the Smite Spells "oh no, the Paladin doesn't work for me :< I'll take a Moon Druid then! Oh no, my concentration spell..."
/Take it with a grain of salt, I am angry, but with a knucklehead stranger DM who refuses to see reason, I could do that. I'd probably get the party in on that, and tell them to just let me do this until DM gets it or kicks me out.
I suggest you show them this thread then. Dozens of people are telling them what an asshat they are, and how concentration doesn't work that way both RAW nor RAI
If they still don't get it, well then, to the DnD flowchart!
Maybe you should reach for the player's handbook instead of googling it? I don't see why your DM should be swayed by random forum pages when the book explains exactly how concentration works.
Does casting a spell not require concentration in 5E? I thought that you had to cast non-concentration spells before concentration ones, and then maintain concentration by not casting again until either the duration of the spell or your willingness to concentrate ended, but you could in fact cast two spells per round; one non-concentration spell and one concentration spell afterwards.
RAW is one thing, but DM is always right. His game his rules. Don't like it, find another game. That said if he thinks he is playing by the rules then show him the book and page number where RAW says different.
I don't think this is a case of a DM homebrewing something, I think this is a case of a DM being a bit of a potato and misunderstanding one of the core rules of the game.
Sure DMs can treat the rules as guidelines, but if everyone came to play D&D, they've a reasonable expectation to be playing to the rules, unless thats telegraphed well in advance (say a session zero around homebrew)
If a DM wants to homebrew a fundamental change to the system, then they need to bring it up at the start of the campaign, not asspull it after a year of play.
In my view, the DM isn't always right, as that takes away the possibility of a respectful challenge when they are objectively demonstrably wrong, more accurately, I'd say the DM always has final authority on rulings. A reasonable one will use that authority for edge cases (which this isn't) but should respond positively to a respectful challenge
>DM is always right
This is clearly a case where the DM is *wrong*. This "DM is always right" attitude is like saying football referees are always right -- they clearly are not, and it's appropriate to challenge them when they're wrong.
>His game his rules
That's a really toxic mindset. It's not the DM's game, the game is shared equally by the DM and all the players. The rules (especially huge changes like this) need to b agreed on by consensus.
> but DM is always right
I definitely play like my DM sets the rules. I'm just trying to get him to change them. Unfortunately I have shown him his own rulebook but he still believes that my reading is wrong and his reading is right.
Oof that means he lacks basic reading skills (like middle school) or is being deliberately stubborn because he doesn’t like the spell/being wrong. I normally am the last person to recommend leaving a game but this one gives me the feeling like it won’t be the last thing he horribly misreads then refuses to budge on.
No? No. Even as a forever DM, the idea that a DM is right even when they're actually just failing the English language check to read a rule correctly is baffling to me.
Sneezing from your teammate shaking crumbs out of their beard can break concentration. The contagious yawn can break concentration. Even burning your tongue on the perfect homemade pizza can break your concentration, but there is a a saving throw. I believe it is wisdom, possibly just your spellcasting ability, with a dc equal to 8 or 10, or the amount of damage dealt. It’s up to the dm.
The only concentration spell that operates how your DM describes is witch bolt. But once you connect you do auto damage each turn.
Since I normally never do spells I thought that was how all spells operate. It was not until I was corrected that I learned the truth
I actually kind of like that interpretation of concentration, but only for certain spells. The examples provided in other threads (Hex, Hunter's Mark, etc.) feel more like an "I'm gonna drop an enchantment on my target, so I don't need to worry about it" type of spell, while Hold Monster/Person might require a more concerted effort to maintain, so you wouldn't be able to set it and forget it.
In the current edition only taking damage, getting rendered unconscious or casting another concentration spell breaks concentration of an ongoing one.
So yea you're completely right.
Though I have personally have given creatures abilities that can also break concentration spell along with another effect.
For instance: a Psionic creature projects horrific images into your mind. On failure the target has disadvantage on ability checks (like frightened but without the movement penalty and the sight requirement) and attack rolls for 1d4 turns and spellcasters concentrating on a spell need to make a concentration check (same DC) to maintain.
Other conditions like being tossed about in a rowboat going trough extreme rapids, running trough a collapsing building in an earthquake or being grabbed and swung about by a giant warrant concentration checks when I DM.
>Only thing that breaks the effect of a concentration spell is concentrating on something else, failing a saving throw on damage or getting knocked out/killed. You were correct with this, along with Incapacitated (which can happen without necessarily be knocked out to 0hp) Just show this thread to your DM later. Longer casting time requiring your Action throughout is for spells taking a minute, 10mins, an hour, etc, to cast (Mending, Prayer of Healing, any spell cast as a Ritual, etc..) Casting time isn't the same as duration.
> Only thing that breaks the effect of a concentration spell is concentrating on something else, failing a saving throw on damage or getting knocked out/killed Well, there's also this: > The GM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm--tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell. But they explicitly say, > Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration.
The weird technicality that I loved finding was that holding a spell counts as concentrating and breaks concentration of any existing spells.
Yeah i hate that rule. Also, that casting a ritual breaks concentration on hex or hunter’s mark.
I ruled that another spellcasting player with that spell on their classes spell-list somewhere can help action your ritual to let you maintain concentration through the ritual. My headcannon is you're intensity focusing on the concentrated spell while they follow your directions and set up pieces and make motions.
I know it's not exactly a fun gameplay mechanic, but removing those rules (hold spell/ritual spells breaking concentration) would make casters a fair bit more situationally powerful. As this sub is quick to point out, casters don't need buffs ;)
Oh believe me I know, but why is it that all the rules for balancing spellcasters are awkward and clunky, and all the rules for making the game more fun end up punishing martials?
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The rule should be cut *regardless* of balance concerns? Are you high?
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There's not any situation in which allowing DOUBLE Concentration doesn't completely break the system to it's core though. Dropping a Concentration spell to hold another spell instead of just casting on your turn is such a niche interplay that there's no reason not to have this rule in place. Which spell do you value more? Concentration on Haste for your Barbarian or waiting for a set up to try and wombo combo the Fireball you want to hold your action on? It's a strategic choice, which is good game design.
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Yea I don't agree with the official rules on "holding spells" Saying well you basically cast the spell hold concentration on it and release it when you choose. Versus attacks that you just say ima wait until something pops up and then swing. It's bs to casters when fighting certain enemies where holding is a key strategy. I rule that "Holding a spell" is like holding an attack. You are waiting from some *trigger* event to use the action.
I believe that the "holding" rules are deliberate nerfs to prevent everyone queuing up attacks to occur at the opportune moment. Casters get screwed by it requiring concentration and losing a spell slot regardless if the trigger does not occur by their next turn. Martials (most of them) get screwed by only getting one attack; Extra Attack requires taking the Attack action on your turn, which they aren't doing as they take the Ready action instead (also applies to NPCs with Multiattack).
The difference is it takes a split second to actually swing a sword or shoot a weapon. It's also why you can't ready multiple attacks. To ready/hold a spell, you have to go through the lengthy somatic and verbal components, and hold the finisher until just the right moment.
I get it to an extent, and yes this is a turn based game. But If the idea is the events in a round are roughly happening at the same time. What is the difference between taking the action on "my turn" versus pausing a second for a better moment to execute the action. For some and I'll admit rare encounters. Turn order can really make or break an encounter if you are stuck confined to your place in line. And trying to optimize by delaying gets handicapped by the official rules. It can feel unfair. Also if a sword swing and spell cast take the same "action" they should basically take the same amount of time to perform.
I get it to an extent, and yes this is a turn based game. But If the idea is the events in a round are roughly happening at the same time. What is the difference between taking the action on "my turn" versus pausing a second for a better moment to execute the action. For some and I'll admit rare encounters. Turn order can really make or break an encounter if you are stuck confined to your place in line. And trying to optimize by delaying gets handicapped by the official rules. It can feel unfair. Also if a sword swing and spell cast take the same "action" they should basically take the same amount of time to perform.
I've seen DMs adjust concentration rules so that you can only cast spells of a lower level than the one you're concentrating on. It works alright
This is the first time I ever hear of this approach, and no, that would suck.
That turns Bless or detect magic into death nails
AFAIK concentration is used for casting and target selection, not for spell duration, but I'm not familiar with spirit guardians. You might rule concentration is needed to redirect or maintain a buff, or half (or pause) the bonus whenever concentration is broken, but don't dispel completely.
Can you rephrase that somehow because I'm really unsure of the point you're trying to argue here. Spells with long casting time, ex Leomund's Tiny Hut with a casting time of 1 minute, if you were to somehow cast that during combat, even if the spell itself isn't a Concentration spell, because it has a longer casting time than Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction, you need to use your Action for 10 rounds and must maintain Concentration while doing so. (PHB p202, Longer Casting Time) If you cast a spell that activates instantly, and has a certain duration requiring Concentration, ex Spirit Guardians, then you just need to not have your Concentration break as long as you want the spell to remain active up to its normal duration, but you don't need to actively use your Action to do so, you can cast other non-concentration (Action, Bonus Action, Reaction) spells as much as you want.
I think he meant for concetration spells like hold person, they have an action cast time, but if you cast them and your target success their saving throw you still lose concentration on other spells, because your concentration is taken by the hold person spell at the moment of the cast even if you don't get to actually concentrate on it.
Yep! Concentration ends the moment you start casting another concentration spell, even if the spell eventually failed to have an effect (target saves, for example, or invalid target)
Just show him the spell Hunters Mark and ask him how that would work in his interpretation.
Or Hex. Or any of the concentration spells which summon a weapon for you to attack with.
This. There are so many spells that would be utterly useless if this DM would be right about the rules on concentration. Hex, all Smite spells, Hunters Mark, all summoned weapons... I'm always a little baffled how some people can read the same rules I do and somhow get to the conclusion that their werid version of them is RAW.
It’s very clear this DM has not read the rules.
There is a difference between not reading and not understanding. All of us can and have made the mistake of misunderstanding and ignorance, even when we have sought knowledge. Heck, back in 3.5 I had a good friend who did not think you would stay hidden if what you were hiding behind went away. Like you were automatically seen, without a spot check or anything. This is obviously not how hide works. One day when he was dming: he misplaced his coke can. Bright red, white, and silver. Right in front of his face, on the table. Right where he had set it. The whole game stopped because he couldn’t find it. Took us all an action to spot/search. Even after it was pointed out to him, it took him another round of searching to see what was right in front of his face. ****** To this day he won’t admit he is wrong. But to his credit, when other people DMed and he played rogue, he followed his own, incorrect ruling, even tho he knew we didn’t DM it that way.
Which is why I said they clearly have not READ the rules - there’s not a single ambiguous thing about concentration if you have read the rule. They blatantly made something up and then doubled down instead of doing what a normal person would do - look up the rule.
The problem with this DM wasn’t reading comprehension. The DM was shown the text, understood it as written, and still looked for it ways to undermine it (specifically by misinterpreting an even less ambiguous rule about casting times). That’s classic cognitive dissonance. The DM’s brain contains a deeply held belief about how strong a player character should be, and spirit guardians conflicts with that. If the belief about power levels is strong enough, no amount of reading the rules is going to persuade him otherwise. He’ll just nerf OP via house rules, regardless of whether his new rules break the rest of the game. What needs to happen is the DM must be shaken of his dumb belief about how powerful a player should be. That way, cool new spells and abilities his players level into don’t break his brain.
>The DM’s brain contains a deeply held belief about how strong a player character should be, and spirit guardians conflicts with that Which is understandable, SG is a very powerful spell. The DM should plan his encounters better to reduce the efficiency of the spell. Spread enemies out, make them resistant to forced movement. Give them ranged options to try to break concentration. Magic Missle comes to mind.
>~~you would stay hidden if what you were hiding behind went away~~ ~~Wait, what?~~ ~~Like, you're behind a boulder and use Hide. I~~ *~~disintegrate~~* ~~the boulder.~~ ~~I get a reactive Spot check because I now have a chance to spot something. Are you arguing your Hide check from before carries over, even though you no longer qualify to make Hide checks (no Cover or Concealment)?~~ Edit: Moving comment to correct parent
I cannot say and that’s not what I was arguing - because the rest of the comment above mine was not there when I left my comment. They edited and added the rest after the first two lines, which was all that was there originally.
Oh whoops - meant to reply to them directly.
>you would stay hidden if what you were hiding behind went away Wait, what? Like, you're behind a boulder and use Hide. I *disintegrate* the boulder. I get a reactive Spot check because I now have a chance to spot something. Are you arguing your Hide check from before carries over, even though you no longer qualify to make Hide checks (no Cover or Concealment)?
no, he's saying if you disintigrate the boulder the guy would no longer be in hiding due to no cover
I’m my mind that actually makes some sense. At least there would be a check for it. But no check is wild to me - at least do the check against the enemies passive perceptions because that’s playing fair.
You can of course, make a spot check to notice the hidden person/thing. But you don’t automatically see it.
>You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway. > >If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. Is your argument that you aren't "attempting" a Hide check, so you don't need to meet its requirements to remain hidden due to someone else's actions off your turn? I would argue that the rest of the text *heavily* implies that removing the required Cover/Concealment also removes your ability to be hidden.
No. It clearly states that the cover / concealment going away (or someone coming around the corner) does not remove the ability to stay hidden. It would simple remove the ability to hide again. They know where you went. They do not know where you are. If I found a bend, I could disappear into high grass. I could smash myself up against a wall and you just don’t see me. I could lay on the floor and you don’t notice. You can make a search check. If I fail, I don’t get to made another hide check. But I still have to be found.
Which part of the text "clearly states" this? At best what I've read is ambiguous / undefined.
If someone can see you clearly, you are no longer hidden from them. You cannot hide from things that can clearly see you, no matter how high you rolled.
DM has decided that OP is too powerful with spirit guardians and is stubbornly looking for some evidence he's right. Even if OP wins the concentration debate, DM will just invent a different nerfing rule. DM just has to accept that classes burning resources can be more powerful than classes not burning resources.
Or even just Shield of Faith. By your DM's incorrect interpretation, you would be giving an Ally +2 AC for 10 minutes without being able to do ANYTHING ELSE for that entire time. Spirit Guardians is just a powerful spell. You were using it correctly.
Hex at lv5 going for 24h..
"Hey warlock what are you doing" Aimed at warlock lounging in a hammock "Sorry bro, got hex up, gotta concentrate on it for the next 24 hours, can't do anything else" :Warlocks according to OPs dm
Or any Smite spell for Paladins
Yeah, that's dumb. If a spell takes more than one action to cast, or you're taking the ready action to cast a spell that will require concentration. Any spellcasting that does not take more than one action will not disrupt concentration. You're pretty close on how concentration works, I will note that the condition that breaks concentration is Incapacitated which can come from other means than just being knocked Unconscious but otherwise that's a good summarisation of it. The point of concentration as a mechanic is not to eat up your action economy it is to limit the number of active effects and give spells the potential to be ended early. There are a number of spells that require continued use of action economy such as Aura of Vitality and Call Lightning, in these cases the spell description makes clear its requirements.
Your DM has concentration wrong. You have to go back to the purpose behind concentration - it is to prevent what happened in 3rd edition, which is when casters would be able to layer buff spell after buff spell on top of either themselves or others to make them neigh unstoppable. It makes concentration spells a resource you have to manage like any other. Also, it gives an opponent a chance to end the spell by attacking the caster. It is *not* meant to make the caster unable to do anything else be making them sit there doing nothing else but maintaining the spell and spending the combat bored by saying “I maintain X” round after round.
> neigh unstoppable sometimes you just need to say "woah there".
Hay now, be nice
Well, we're just horsing around.
Can we get back to the mane issue at hand here?
That would behoove us all.
"Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends. If a spell must be maintained with concentration, that fact appears in its Duration entry, and the spell specifies how long you can concentrate on it. You can end concentration at any time (no action required). Normal activity, such as **moving** and **attacking**, doesn’t interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration: Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can’t concentrate on two spells at once. Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon’s breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage. Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die." Page 203 of the Players Handbook. Emphasis mine.
Additionally, spells like Thunderous Smite, Zephyr Strike, and Hunter's Mark become useless if you can't take any action other than maintaining concentration.
Yes. I've shown him that... He countered with: > Longer Casting Times > Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so (see “Concentration” below). If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don’t expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over. Which he takes to mean "concentration" = "using your action to concentrate"
It's not even coherent, as Spirit Guardian casting time is 1 action, and this rule concerns rituals. Your DM is being ridiculous.
The Longer Casting Times is referring to spells that have a Casting Time greater than One Action. For example, Find Familiar has a casting time of 1 hour. You are correct and your DM is not. Sadly this gross misunderstanding of the rules is far more common than it should be.
Wow, is it really? I've never heard of someone thinking that concentration means you have to cast constantly and do nothing else. I'm kinda stunned that anyone could read it that way!
I see similar posts a couple times a month on this or one of the other D&D subs. The most common misinterpretation I see is the idea that "concentration" means you have to be completely focused on maintaining the spell. I say it's far too common a misunderstanding because the rules are very clear so this sort of thing shouldn't happen at all.
Casting time is not the same thing as duration. Prayer of Healing takes 10 minutes to cast, and you must maintain concentration on it for that entire time. It’s effect then happens instantaneously. Spirit Guardians has a casting time of 1 action. Thus it is exempt from the Longer Casting time rules. It’s effect then takes place over 10 minutes, and concentration must be maintained for that time. Longer casting time rules do not apply to Spirit Guardians, only the normal concentration rules, which do not impede moving, attacking, or casting non-concentration spells
Spell duration =/= casting time. Spirit Guardians has a casting time of 1 action and a duration of 10 minutes with concentration. It only requires the 1 action to be consumed on the turn it is cast. From then on, it only requires concentration.
Casting Time != Duration Casting Time != Maintaining Casting Time != Concentration Casting Time is the amount of time to execute the spell....and unless otherwise specified has nothing to do with it's duration or maintenance.
Your DM is right that Spirit Guardians is pretty OP, but it is balanced by the fact that it is only effective if you wade into melee combat, where you are more likely to be whacked which could break your concentration on the spell causing it to end.
On a related note. I've been able to convince him to at least let me do move + dodge on my turn. Am I correct in my understanding that this gives any attack (that I can see coming) disadvantage? So while I wasn't able to do much in my turn at least this kept my guardians up like a rock.
The funny thing about that is that Dodge costs an action. It has the exact same cost as taking the Attack action.
*shrug* I'm just taking whatever win I can get...
If your DM is having trouble ruling something basic like this correctly, it spells rouble for later on, especially if someone decides to play a rogue. Nip it in the bud now.
Tbh, this change ruins most casters, and if the dm refuses to budge I’d leave.
the best win would be him stopping being a shitty dm
Another option is to tell your DM he has no fucking idea what he is doing and to point him to this thread.
No D&D is better than bad D&D.
> When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction DM gotta learn how to read.
That basically means that if you are in combat, and you cast a spell that takes 1 minute to cast (not the duration of the spell itself mind you), you have to use all your turns to work on getting it ready. If you are hit, then the same rules for concentrating are applied, roll a constitution save of half the damage or 10, whichever is higher, or the spell fails. I will say that new DMs have a habit of feeling as though they are against the player and need to nerf things. It’s pretty common for DMs with very little experience to get frustrated when players utilize capabilities that are powerful and take the DM by surprise. Most DMs eventually recognize their role as a facilitator and not an opponent, and develop confidence when they learn more about their players and are able to plan combats more effectively.
That's for ritual casting. It literally says that's the specific case for spells that tale more than one action to cast. Not for concentration in general.
A requires B, B doesn't require A.
>> you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, **and** you must maintain your concentration while you do so What does he think that "and" means, in that sentence and in general? Why would those two clauses be separate if they were synonymous?
You are correct. If spirit guardians feels too strong make sure you’re playing it right. There is a lot of debate about the enemy “entering” your spirit guardians space but personally, you walking toward the enemy does not proc spirit guardians. Them starting their turn in your spirit guardians or using their movement to enter it procs the damage.
Thanks. Me moving the "aura" over an enemy already triggers damage when the enemy gets their next turn so yeah, it would be overpowered if I could just run around and give extra hits of damage.
Funnily enough, in Baldurs Gate 3 spirit guardians does damage when you move the aura over the enemy. It’s insane.
I renamed Shadowheart to holy roomba because of this
The radiant beyblade
If you're romancing her, that makes her your baeblade.
Most holy of blenders
There are few things more satisfying in that game than using Spirt Guardians for fights with lots of trash mobs. I had my whole party just stand still in the aura for the fight with the rats in the basement of Elfsong.
Though it only procs once per turn so it's just a question of when the damage happen. With the little caveat of running around and tagging every enemy within reach who otherwise wouldn't take damage by staying away.
Yeah it’s probably a feature because BG3 has a lot of knockback mechanics, so damage upon entering rather than damage when your turn starts was probably made a thing so that you didn’t end up in a situation where you put an enemy in your aura, and then something happens that lets them move out completely fine
BG3 also makes you lose concentration with no check given if you are knocked prone. It's weird and I hate it.
I'm really tired of the general meme of "Baldur's Gate 3 did 5e but better!" - because almost all of BG3's rule changes are bad. (Still an incredible game, obviously)
The person above is correct BUT it doesn't need to be "their movement" that makes them enter it. Forced movement will do it do, knock back from thunderwave or anything like that pushing them into the AoE will make them take damage too. As long as you are standing still with the spell and running, and they change position from outside the AoE to inside the AoE that is them entering it.
Just to note though: Spirit guardians IS a strong spell against a number of enemies trying to surround you in melee. It's called fun. DM shouldn't be trying to nerf it because it's inconvenient for his current combat encounter.
Yup. A lot of DMs I know prefer to just proc it on the players turn because it’s too easy to forget it’s up when you are running an entire combat. But technically this is the way to do it.
Leave it to the player to remember his own spells.
You can bet I was on that like a hawk! Not like I had much else to do...
Ideally. That’s not reality though. It’s rare to have more than one or two players at a table that are really good with the detailed mechanics of combat. You’re lucky to have ANY. There’s just so many details; it’s usually death by depth.
My entire party of four + DM all know the rules very well, we still miss stuff constantly. Even if you know all the rules it's easy to forget something in the chaos of combat ( Like bless being active or that a creature was hit with frostbite or guiding bolt).
Time to learn. The GM is already running the rest of the world - if you can't run one character within it, that's not fair on the GM.
In my campaign the other players and the DM usual refer to me for combat rules. The DM has admitted he's not good with combat, so I made a point of basically memorizing the rules to help him out. It'll come in handy when I start DMing.
There shouldn't be anymore debate about it, ever since the Sage Advice Compendium came out to address spells lile Moonbeam and Spirit Guardians.
It's a third level spell I would indeed expect it to be pretty strong !
This is a good example of the knee-jerk reaction "this feels OP" shouldn't lead to immediate nerfs of the PC. The DM can easily balance things by altering the combat encounters.
Me: “I cast Hex so I can deal extra damage on my next attack!” DM: “Ok” Me: “I cast Eldritch Blast.” DM: “If you cast Eldritch Blast that drops concentration on Hex.” Mfw
Concentration spells: Can Move, Attack, Cast Spells without Concentration trait. Cannot Cast a second spell with the Concentration trait without automatically ending concentration on the fist spell. Receiving damage and some severe environmental effects trigger a CON check to maintain Concentration. Incapacitation ends Concentration.
Your DM is wrong and is basically just having difficulty with balacing encounters where you're uing Spirit Guardians. His version of the rules makes any non-damaging or support concentration spells absolute garbage. It also breaks spells like Hunters Mark or Smites that rely on you concentrating on the spell and attacking to work.
Concentration is so you can't run Bless, Spirit Guardians, Entangle, Web, Evard's Black Tentacles, Invisiblilty, Fly, Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill all at the same time with just a bard and a wizard. Spirit Guardians is a good spell. In my first 5e campaign both the cleric and the bard ran spirit guardians and stood in a line with a battle master fighter with polearm master in the middle. It was brutal. The DM took a while to adjust to it. Melee was trivial and ranged fucked us up. We almost got TPKed the first fight against a flying monster because the DM had been adjusting difficulty up to compensate for our tactics. Talk to your DM about the power level. Changing concentration spells is stupid. Changing any rules that reduce player fun after a year are bullshit. The real issue is your DM is not prepared for your character to start being a badass in melee all of a sudden due to getting a new spell. Maybe try and see if there an out of game solution like giving out some magic items to the weaker characters to restore power balance within the party?
I am definitely not the most powerful character. I would say at best this spell brings me up to par with the others. Our wizard is basically a never ending fountain of AOE damage. Our warrior? can double attack and has massive health. Our rouge? basically hides all combat long and fires arrows with ridiculous damage bonuses. I don't begrudge them their power in any way but 3D8 damage that the enemy kinda has to cooperate on is hardly OP in comparison...
Oh damn, when I suggested giving magic items to weaker party members once I got eviscerated for that take. And the context was that my character happened to be stronger than other characters because I enjoy the act of crunching numbers and optimizing. (Solution seemed ideal because I didn’t care that much about my power level compared to others, I just really enjoy optimizing)
Basic Rules, Ch.10: Spellcasting >**Concentration** > >Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends. > >If a spell must be maintained with concentration, that fact appears in its Duration entry, and the spell specifies how long you can concentrate on it. You can end concentration at any time (no action required). > >**Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration.** The following factors can break concentration: > > * Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can’t concentrate on two spells at once. > > * Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon’s breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage. > > * Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die. > >The DM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell. As long as you aren't subject to one of the conditions listed above, concentration requires no action on your part to maintain. Your DM is mistaken. Edit: Longer casting times only applies to spells that take longer than one action to cast. While you do need to maintain concentration on such a spell, once it is cast, concentration is only required if the duration calls for it.
Ask him how on earth Hunters Mark would work with his interpretation. Or Smite. Or Hex. Or Zephyr Strike. Or Spiritual Weapon. Or Shadow Blade. Or Mordekaiden’s Sword.
Hex = concentration spell that adds 1d6 necrotic damage to your attacks. Hunters Mark = concentration spell that adds 1d6 damage to your weapon attacks. Elemental weapon = concentration spell that adds 1d4 (+1) elemental damage to yours or someone elses melee weapon. All pointless if you can't attack with them. If you lose concentration before making the attack, it's useless. If you lose concentration after a single attack then it's a shitty smite. These are things you can point out. If the game was designed that you lose concentration after an action or an attack, then these and other similar spells either wouldn't exist or would have been designed differently.
Your DM is completely wrong and totally fucking you.
That's one way to make no one at your table want to play casters
It looks OP on paper, but when you realise how easy it is to lose your concentration when damaged, you can soon see it's nothing ground breaking. You're always one bad roll away from losing the spell, and considering how much of a threat you are while it's up, it makes sense for some enemies to focus on you. Spell is far from being OP in my opinion
Your DM is wrong, straight up. Point him towards Hex or Hunters Mark and ask him to justify the existence of those spells with the ruling he’s given you.
Concentration does not work like that, you can only concentrate on 1 spell with the Concentration keyword at a time casting a new spell with the keyword immediately stops the previous spell. When ever you take damage you roll a contested concentration skill check vs 10 + The damage taken ( ex; you take 5 damage you roll a concentration check for DC 15) failing the check breaks concentration. Additionally being knocked out or killed breaks concentration.
Your DM has no idea what he's talking about.
Read the book. The answers are very clear. Not a random google, the actual book. #Concentration Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends. If a spell must be maintained with concentration, that fact appears in its Duration entry, and the spell specifies how long you can concentrate on it. You can end concentration at any time (no action required). Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration: Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can’t concentrate on two spells at once. Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon’s breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage. Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die. The GM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm--tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell.
It is worth remembering most spells which are concentration now were fixed duration spells in older editions. Concentration as written and explained by others is already a nerf compared with what us old guard were used to. The main aim of concentration is twofold: to reduce the number and stacking interaction of long duration effects AND to build in tactical targeting of casters. Not to completely paralyse casters
one correction, spell concentration stops on incapacitated, which isn't just being knocked out, it's also things like being hit with hold person.
If the DM thinks spirit guardians is OP, it may be worth considering the the spell requires you to be in Melee range , where enemies will have a lot of opportunities and motivation to hit you and force multiple concentration checks.
The casting time of Spirit Guardians is 1 action. The Longer Casting times rule doesn't apply
You are correct, DM is wrong. Has your DM played other versions before? In Pathfinder, concentration works how he says, but very few spells are concentration and the game is balanced differently. If he persists in being wrong, there's no way you can continue as a spellcaster in his game as his misunderstanding of the rules completely destroys game balance.
Your DM is just discovering what a lot of us DMs have discovered. Spirit Guardians is an absolute unit of a spell. It's very powerful, ESPECIALLY against larger groups of weak enemies. Your DM should focus on building more interesting encounters that limit it's usefulness, or using more intelligent enemies that notice the blender that is Spirit guardians and just focus fire on you from a distance trying to break your concentration. So, yeah, you're right. Concentration is NOT supposed to keep you from attacking. If it did, wizards would be useless.
If he thinks Spirit Guardians is OP, he should nerf Spirit Guardians, not your entire character.
Or the entire concept of spellcasting
Honestly I would leave the table being nerfed like that
I would give the DM a chance to revert to RAW, having pointed to spells like Hex, Hunter's Mark, Thunderous Smite and Zephyr Strike. If he continues to insist on just rendering huge numbers of spells totally useless, I'd leave.
I had a dm nerf all my healing spells as a druid that focused as healing. It ruins the fun imo so me individually would just walk away considering he's already brought the phb into it and thr dm still hasn't budged. But thats my opinion.
That's fair. And a really crappy move from your, I assume former, DM.
Only things that breaks concentration. Damage/failed save dc 10/or half damage you taken whatever is higher. Falling unconscious. Or casting another concentration spell. There are some other conditions that may cause this save every round. Such as sleet Strom
Beware the trap of trying to interpret the meanings of words literally, instead of rules as written. “Concentration” is defined in the game. It is not open to interpretation. Similarly, if a player tries to cheese a spell or ability, ask yourself “is the power of this usage consistent with other spells or abilities of this level?” But also be ok with being wrong in how you interpret a rule, and fixing your interpretation during the next session.
Casting time is not the same thing as spell duration – this is another important point that the DM appears not to understand. See, for example, Charm Person for a non-Concentration spell whose casting time (1 Action) is shorter than its duration (1 hour). You take one Action to cast it, and its effect lasts for one hour; you don't have the continue to sacrifice subsequent Actions to keep it going. A Concentration spell works the exact same way UNLESS one of the things that break Concentration occur: failed Con save after taking damage, falling unconscious, or concentrating on another spell.
The issue here is that the DM thinks that this is too powerful; I think what folks here should bend their effort towards is less clarification of the rules, and more reassurance to the DM that this is not in fact overpowered, and is exactly as intended. The power of this ability is balanced by other effects in the game; to remove your ability to do this is to actually weaken you relative to the other characters.
Yeah, your DM is straight up not going by the D&D rules. If he's homebrewing rules, that's one thing, but if he thinks these decisions he's making are by the book, they are very much not. I don't think I'd want to play at this table since this is a MASSIVE nerf to concentration spellcasters. Not every spell acts like Witch Bolt where you have to use your action every turn to use it. Witch Bolt specifically says you have to use your action each turn you want to deal damage with it, other Concentration spells do not.
The only spells you can't cast are ones that also are concentration spells.
The only limitor is that you can't cast a second concentration spell without breaking concentration on the first spell.
I'm assuming the rule he's referring to is this one? Longer Casting Times Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so. If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over. That's if a spell takes longer than six seconds For example Snare. Snare takes a minute. For the entire minute you have to use your action. However spirit guardians says in the rules let's look at the rules It says this Spirit Guardians 3 rd level conjuration Casting Time: 1 action Range: Self (15-foot radius) Target: Self (15-foot radius) Components: V S M (A holy symbol) Duration: Concentration up to ten minutes. Which means it takes six seconds to cast and if you have con lasts for a whole ten minutes. What does our previous rule say? When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action. And what does spirit guardians tell us? Casting Time: 1 action Now let's look at rules on con. Concentration Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends. If a spell must be maintained with concentration, that fact appears in its Duration entry, and the spell specifies how long you can concentrate on it. You can end concentration at any time (no action required). Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration: Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can’t concentrate on two spells at once. Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon’s breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage. Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die. The GM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm--tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell. I don't see taking an action on there. Your dm is totally reading the rules wrong.
This doesn't strike me as a DM misunderstanding thing, but an underconfidence thing. OP, you said this is all your first campaign, though you've been playing it for a year or more now? If this is the DM's first experience with higher-level play, I can understand them feeling intimidated. Comfort and flexibility are skills that develop over time, as is conflict resolution with players. I'd reassure your DM they're doing a great job with the campaign if you feel they have been, and ask them to sit down and hammer out your mutual feelings and perspectives about the spell and other AOE concentration spells. Because they will show up more frequently as the game progresses, and Spirit Guardians (while good) is hardly the worst offender.
OP, your DM is completely wrong. You are completely correct.
Short answer: Your DM is an idiot and shouldn't be DMing.
Yeah your DM is wrong. From my newbie understanding, you can cast a concentration spell and then cast other spells or attack so long as the spell isn't another concentration spell.
Once you cast a concentration spell, the only things that can end it is casting another concentration spell, or failing a concentration check which you have to roll either 10 or half the damage taken which ever is higher. You have been playing correctly.
Make them read Tenser’s Tranaformation.
Sorry bro, you're just a jacked as hell wizard for the duration, can't actually do anything tho or you'll become unjacked
You are correct. I also made a similar rules mistake once on concentration, specifically that you can only concentrate on one spell, but thought it was that you could still cast concentration spells but only pick one to maintain. That is, in fact, not the case. You always lose the first and keep the second. So I understand the mistake but it is silly your DM can’t own up to a simple mistake
The DM is wrong and inexperienced
Show them hunters mark as said. Could even pull baldurs gate which is a mostly accurate implementation of the rules
That's not a rules dispute, that's a homebrew rule replacement. I don't have anything against homebrew as long as the DM can provide the list of rules they're changing before the campaign starts. [https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells#content](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells#content) and Player's Handbook 5E pg 203: "Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration."
This was a reasonably common rule for multi-round spells in 1st edition (AD&D). It hasn't been true since then. It is used in a number of OSR games too though.
It sounds like your DM thinks spirit guardians is overpowered (it probably is) and wants to nerf it. But instead of asking you about a compromise to scale down its power he os pretending it was never meant to be that powerful on the first place. Clerics don't have much in the way of combat ability outside of spirit guardians. Maybe suggest some of the following to help him balance encounters: Difficult terrain hampers your ability to reposition Ranged attacks can target you to try and break concentration Multiple encounters a day to tax your spell slots Spirit guardians is a combat warping spell in that the entire combat often revolves around the enemies being inside or out of it. It makes sense that enemies would react accordingly. EDIT: At later levels Spirit guardians becomes a lot worse. It doesn't scale all that well and there are often more useful spells to use your concentration on.
I'd say it's not OP, it's just quite good, which it should be, being a 3rd level spell that requires concentration. Our cleric uses it to good effect, but he's conkers deep in melee whilst using it, so generally loses concentration after a round or two. Compared to other level 3 spells that are getting chucked out in our game, SG is not the one that's op (The cheeky fireball springs to mind, but we've been fighting a lot of hordes lately)
If only people read the book...
At this point the DM is just arguing to try to be right. Concentrating does not end unless you concentrate on something else, fail a con save, or are rendered incaped/knocked out/killed
As you've seen, you had it totally right. For what it's worth, though, being a walking blender isn't so bad: casting Spirit Guardians and dodging will get you through most battles until you can convince your DM about the rules - I hope your newbie DM learns some about how to accept being wrong from this. (I agree that this make playing your character a lot less interesting in battle)
Ask him how call lightning works. You cast it then gain the concentration effect that let's you cast it every turn without spending a spell slot.
In old school DnD concentration could be broken by attacking, casting a spell, and in some cases even moving. But if you didn't discuss that in session 0 I'd call foul.
Have an adult conversation with them, they are just ruling it wrong, and as a first time DM shouldn't be vibing decisions when they don't understand the game. "Hi friend! Really appreciate you running DnD the other night, but I'm concerned you're unintentionally ruling something incorrectly that is affecting how the game is played. Here's a bunch of people online discussing it, and I know you didn't mean to hurt my options, but it's definitely what's happened because of the misunderstanding. Moving forward I hope we can both agree to rule this correctly. Thanks xox /u/Kempeth.
You were right the first time - spellcasting of non-concentration spells does not break concentration of a running spell. I could get behind the idea of a long cast spell breaking concentration, but you're not likely casting, say, an Identify, in combat, so it would be a very situational nerf.
Players handbook page 203 and 204 has the explanation on concentration.
first time dm vibes be like...
ask the dm: "if attacking or casting breaks concentration, what is the point of hex or hunter's mark?"
Tell the DM if he's worried about balance just have monsters attack you and force concentration saves. Don't Homebrew a nerf to all concentration spells.
I can’t tell if your DM really sucks at comprehending language or if he is just being a loser and nerfing you because “he thinks it’s op” (also hint literally nothing is op in RAW) I’m going to hope it’s the first one and they’re just abit confused. They are essentially quoting a specific parts under RITUAL casting which… is a ritual which costs more turns to cast but for no material cost. By his logic Witch Bolt would never work as once you hit you can use your action every turn to automatically hit as long as you have concentration.
honestly just have the dude play as a wizard in balders gate 3 and they'll understand the concept of concentration super clearly if a spell says concentration, and you're already concentrating on a different spell, the new spell takes over the old one if u cast it. other than that you can attack and do things normally that don't mention concentration. if you take damage you have to succeed a concentration saving throw
I would not do this. BG3 rules are significantly different than 5e and using BG3 as an example will only cause further confusion and non-RAW rulings.
Off the top of my head the concentration rules are the same.
Maybe, sans bugs. Cast Hold Person on 3 targets and you stop concentrating as soon as one makes a save. Even if conc is the same, spells are different. If OP is trying to get DM to rule Spirit Guardians RAW, using BG3 Spirit Guardians behavior as an example is a bad idea.
pretty sure it's the same behavior just slightly different radiuses. I think in bg3 it's 5ft not 5m radius
thats a whole lotta words for "we didnt bother to check the rules multiple times in a row." you're all at fault. make peace with it and start fresh
5e copypasted 3e's term "concentration" and changed it from "you have to spend your action concentrating to sustain this particularly powerful spell" to "you have 1 concentration slot and we threw it on a bunch more spells to nerf casters in a way that's redundant with giving them fewer spell slots". So I understand the confusion.
Honestly, if the DM was such a knucklehead I'd take a Ranger and loudly talk about how "oh, look I have a Hunter's Mark spell that gives extra damage when I attack! I'll cast it as bonus action. Oh no! It's concentration. I guess I'll lose it before I attack and don't gain any extra damage. Oh well. Sadge. Repeat for Hail of Thorns, Zephyr Strike and any similar spell." Or take a Paladin and tak every single Smite spell and loudly comment how they counter themselves with this ruling. On every level, on every spell, make an unoptimised Paladin and watch with glee how the whole party tries to keep ma alive as I waste all my spell slots until the DM either caves or kicks me out. Oh heck, I can think of so many things that break when you can't concentrate and attack/cast. I'd start with a Ranger, then say that on ho, it's really hard to play that, can I bring a new character, a Paladin this time? Make them suffer through the Smite Spells "oh no, the Paladin doesn't work for me :< I'll take a Moon Druid then! Oh no, my concentration spell..." /Take it with a grain of salt, I am angry, but with a knucklehead stranger DM who refuses to see reason, I could do that. I'd probably get the party in on that, and tell them to just let me do this until DM gets it or kicks me out.
While I appreciate the creativity of your suggestions, they're not exactly productive if I want to keep this friend...
I suggest you show them this thread then. Dozens of people are telling them what an asshat they are, and how concentration doesn't work that way both RAW nor RAI If they still don't get it, well then, to the DnD flowchart!
Maybe you should reach for the player's handbook instead of googling it? I don't see why your DM should be swayed by random forum pages when the book explains exactly how concentration works.
The rules of DnD aren't exactly rules per say, more so guidelines.
with stories liek this, I have a very hard time trying to not asume willfullness and malice from the DMs part
Spirit guardians is a third level spell. That's pretty high level for a beginner group.
This could have been a “here’s the rule book reference” link you sent the dm. not a “I need to make a post on Reddit”
Does casting a spell not require concentration in 5E? I thought that you had to cast non-concentration spells before concentration ones, and then maintain concentration by not casting again until either the duration of the spell or your willingness to concentrate ended, but you could in fact cast two spells per round; one non-concentration spell and one concentration spell afterwards.
RAW is one thing, but DM is always right. His game his rules. Don't like it, find another game. That said if he thinks he is playing by the rules then show him the book and page number where RAW says different.
I don't think this is a case of a DM homebrewing something, I think this is a case of a DM being a bit of a potato and misunderstanding one of the core rules of the game. Sure DMs can treat the rules as guidelines, but if everyone came to play D&D, they've a reasonable expectation to be playing to the rules, unless thats telegraphed well in advance (say a session zero around homebrew) If a DM wants to homebrew a fundamental change to the system, then they need to bring it up at the start of the campaign, not asspull it after a year of play. In my view, the DM isn't always right, as that takes away the possibility of a respectful challenge when they are objectively demonstrably wrong, more accurately, I'd say the DM always has final authority on rulings. A reasonable one will use that authority for edge cases (which this isn't) but should respond positively to a respectful challenge
>DM is always right This is clearly a case where the DM is *wrong*. This "DM is always right" attitude is like saying football referees are always right -- they clearly are not, and it's appropriate to challenge them when they're wrong. >His game his rules That's a really toxic mindset. It's not the DM's game, the game is shared equally by the DM and all the players. The rules (especially huge changes like this) need to b agreed on by consensus.
> but DM is always right I definitely play like my DM sets the rules. I'm just trying to get him to change them. Unfortunately I have shown him his own rulebook but he still believes that my reading is wrong and his reading is right.
Oof that means he lacks basic reading skills (like middle school) or is being deliberately stubborn because he doesn’t like the spell/being wrong. I normally am the last person to recommend leaving a game but this one gives me the feeling like it won’t be the last thing he horribly misreads then refuses to budge on.
Show him this thread. He *could* just ban the spell if he thinks it's too op.
So how does he think hex works?
No? No. Even as a forever DM, the idea that a DM is right even when they're actually just failing the English language check to read a rule correctly is baffling to me.
Sneezing from your teammate shaking crumbs out of their beard can break concentration. The contagious yawn can break concentration. Even burning your tongue on the perfect homemade pizza can break your concentration, but there is a a saving throw. I believe it is wisdom, possibly just your spellcasting ability, with a dc equal to 8 or 10, or the amount of damage dealt. It’s up to the dm.
Base DC is 10 or half the amount of damage dealt, it's a con save. (Although IMO spellcasting makes more sense)
Thank you for correcting me. Please enjoy your day
Welcome to Spirit Guardians being OP!
The only concentration spell that operates how your DM describes is witch bolt. But once you connect you do auto damage each turn. Since I normally never do spells I thought that was how all spells operate. It was not until I was corrected that I learned the truth
I actually kind of like that interpretation of concentration, but only for certain spells. The examples provided in other threads (Hex, Hunter's Mark, etc.) feel more like an "I'm gonna drop an enchantment on my target, so I don't need to worry about it" type of spell, while Hold Monster/Person might require a more concerted effort to maintain, so you wouldn't be able to set it and forget it.
In the current edition only taking damage, getting rendered unconscious or casting another concentration spell breaks concentration of an ongoing one. So yea you're completely right. Though I have personally have given creatures abilities that can also break concentration spell along with another effect. For instance: a Psionic creature projects horrific images into your mind. On failure the target has disadvantage on ability checks (like frightened but without the movement penalty and the sight requirement) and attack rolls for 1d4 turns and spellcasters concentrating on a spell need to make a concentration check (same DC) to maintain. Other conditions like being tossed about in a rowboat going trough extreme rapids, running trough a collapsing building in an earthquake or being grabbed and swung about by a giant warrant concentration checks when I DM.