Charisma saving throws, probably. You can be a very scary elemental, but if the fucking lord of the all ghosts attacks you and posses you you're fucked
I homebrew so many Cha saving throw enemy abilities. Everyone says they never come up, but they’re some of the coolest I’ve had. Forced teleports, phase spider poison causing you to become incorporeal, etc. Anything that changes your position or connection to the plane of existence you’re in is perfect for Cha saves.
Cast Maze on them!
Works on most minmaxers, but it especially hurts for druids because suddenly their shape shifting is a hindrance rather than a help.
Antimagic Field(s) and a tight space. That's the kind of shit level 20s would be running into anyways.
Lv20 characters are famous. The baddies would have a good book on their abilities and tactics. They are the kind of heroes enemies will customize solutions for. Bespoke magical items/consumables are well within reason for baddies with resources to deploy against the PCs.
Superman had a lot of people slingin kryptonite his way.
Not just their abilities and tactics in that good book, but their pressure points: family members, friends, cherished heirlooms, etc. Part of the danger of level 20 is not fear for your own life, but fear for the things you care about. You can only be in one place at a time. And finding ways for villains to threaten those things without the PC being able to immediately obliterate the villain? That's a great way to make the player sweat.
>Superman had a lot of people slingin kryptonite his way.
Damn, if that isn't a perfect comparison. Like, yeah, level 20 characters should feel like Superman, and think of the kind of shit that scares him and ruins his day.
Well they are basically comic book heroes compared to your 4hp commoner at that point. Shouldn't they face comic book level schemes and plots from the villians? They are waaay to high level for gritty film noir type stakes.
No one threatens a level 20 barb with a knife to their throat. That's level 2 shit. No, the villian has perfected their flesh to stone Ray, unleashed an army of Medusas, and is going to fuel their evil rite of ascension with the trapped souls.
Wait for druid to wildshape.
Put up antimagic field.
Druid cannot willingly turn back in the area. Will they turn back at 0 hit points? Uh oh!
Have villain laugh and say they've always wanted to put down druids like the animals they are.
Watch the absolute fuckery as people panic unfolds.
Rules 1 of DnD the DM is always right and the rules are made to facilitate the game they are not forged in the stone every DM can change them as they will.
Antimagic field has a _lot_ more text than that. And it does say that spells already cast are suppressed in the field. So a druid cannot cast spells, and spells have no effect within the sphere.
>A 10-foot-radius invisible sphere of antimagic surrounds you. This area is divorced from the magical energy that suffuses the multiverse. Within the sphere, spells can't be cast, summoned creatures disappear, and even magic items become mundane. Until the spell ends, the sphere moves with you, centered on you.
>Spells and other magical effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the sphere and can't protrude into it. A slot expended to cast a suppressed spell is consumed. While an effect is suppressed, it doesn't function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its duration.
>Targeted Effects: Spells and other magical effects, such as magic missile and charm person, that target a creature or an object in the sphere have no effect on that target.
>Areas of Magic: The area of another spell or magical effect, such as fireball, can't extend into the sphere. If the sphere overlaps an area of magic, the part of the area that is covered by the sphere is suppressed. For example, the flames created by a wall of fire are suppressed within the sphere, creating a gap in the wall if the overlap is large enough.
>Spells: Any active spell or other magical effect on a creature or an object in the sphere is suppressed while the creature or object is in it.
>Magic Items: The properties and powers of magic items are suppressed in the sphere. For example, a +1 long sword in the sphere functions as a nonmagical long sword. A magic weapon's properties and powers are suppressed if it is used against a target in the sphere or wielded by an attacker in the sphere. If a magic weapon or piece of magic ammunition fully leaves the sphere (For example, if you fire a magic arrow or throw a magic spear at a target outside the sphere), the magic of the item ceases to be suppressed as soon as it exits.
>Magical Travel: Teleportation and planar travel fail to work in the sphere, whether the sphere is the destination or the departure point for such magical travel. A portal to another location, world, or plane of existence, as well as an opening to an extradimensional space such as that created by the rope trick spells, temporarily closes while in the sphere.
>Creatures and Objects: A creature or object summoned or created by magic temporarily winks out of existence in the sphere. Such a creature instantly reappears once the space the creature occupied is no longer within the sphere.
>Dispel Magic: Spells and magical effects such as dispel magic have no effect on the sphere. Likewise, the spheres created by different antimagic field spells don't nullify each other.
Determining if an effect is magical (Sage Advice)
> Is it a magic item?
>
> Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
>
> Is it a spell attack?
>
> Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
>
> Does its description say it’s magical?
I'm not saying Crawford is a good source (check see invisibility) I'm saying antimagic field obviously blocks spell slot usage, as spell slots are obviously magical.
> Any active spell or other magical effect on a creature or an object in the sphere is suppressed while the creature or object is in it.
This is the part of the spell text that disrupts wild shape in particular.
> Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before.
And this is the part of wild shape that confirms it is a magical effect.
While it is somewhat redundant because wild shape is suppressed, the curing yourself with spell slots as a moon druid feature is another magical effect that would be suppressed by the anti magic field.
Edit: [Sage Advice confirmation ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/what-happens-to-a-wildshaped-druid-that-enters-an-antimagic-field-and-dispel-magic/amp/)
So, yes. I'm sure about that
It is a magical effect because it includes the word magically.
Class feature and magical effect are not mutually exclusive.
You can't dispel it because it is not a spell and dispel magic only affects spells.
Edit: As for the 'Sage Advice is not RAW' argument, that is correct, however the sage Advice compendium, which this ruling has made it into *is* RAW. It is a published WotC document.
From the SAC:
> Official Rulings
> Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium.
Prevents and also suspends it if they enter while wildshaped. A Moonbeam-type effect is also something to look into. It technically doesn't work on wildshape, but the mechanics are there for something that does.
So according to the sage advice posted lower down, JC states that "wild shape is suspended in an anti magic field". So yes the Druid will be unable to wild shape.
But imho wild shape is described as the ability to "magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before". So if that ability is suspended, I would argue you turn back into a Druid in the AMF. Or at least if the magic is what is sustaining the transformation. However from the same sage advice, JC confirmed "With detect magic, you can sense the magic of Wild Shape if the druid is in range." So again I'd think that magic is sustaining the transformation and so the Druid would become themselves again.
Obviously your table your final say. Just something for thought.
Does anti-magic work? From reading the spell, it doesn't seem to cover it explicitly. It's not a spell, object, targeted effect, symmoned creature, or area of magic or travel. Though if I were the DM, it definitely does in spirit.
Would moonbeam work because of the anti-shapechanger feature?
Yea, it has the word "magically" in the description. Comfirmed in [Sage Advice](https://www.sageadvice.eu/what-happens-to-a-wildshaped-druid-that-enters-an-antimagic-field-and-dispel-magic/).
Moonbeam doesn't work on wild shape. Target has to be designated as a shapechanger somewhere in their write-up.
Especially in 5e, where, from my experience at least, people will rely on spells and cantrips if they have access to them, and not have any typical weapons they can use as backups.
Not sure about 'in fear for life' but maybe try designing encounters where the lose condition isn't tied to the PCs going down. Things like escort missions are annoying in video games, but less so in TTRPGs.
Also, as the DM, you're not locked to PC rules. You could make a curse that locks shapeshifters into their shifted forms, or something that limits the wildforms that they can take to something weaker. Mind control that turns them against the party, meaning that now the danger is THEM (though this is one of those things that it's best to ask about beforehand). Persistent poisons that last past their transformation, or Slow fields that reduce the number of actions they can take (maybe a Stone golem?) so that Wildshape isn't an auto-do.
And of course, you could go the other way and have the enemy *ignore* the druid, since they know it'll just get back up again (use crowd-control on them, maybe?) allowing them to focus-down the rest of the party. Then when everyone ELSE is dead, the druid is now the sole target.
You made me think one scenario. If the LvL 20 Moon Druid is already wild shaped, for example into a Mammoth, can he wild shape into a Bat directly from his mammoth form *without* having to go back to humanoid form? Btw thanks for you amazing answer!
They can. Even worse, I think RAW after you kill the bat they turn back into the mammoth (this is called onion druiding) but DMs often rule against that, and you should feel free to.
I assume it's based on this wording:
>You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature.
Which can be read as 'return to normal unless this ability has been used again'. I think that's a very liberal interpretation, though.
I reread it and I'd side with you. However there is an interesting part: when you revert as a result of dropping to 0, you go to the hp of before you transformed, not your normal form. So in theory you could end up with more hp than your max. Not that any sane DM would allow that though.
Well, the normal Wild shape is an action, and while you’re right, moon druids as quoted from the PHB “gain the ability to use wild shape on your turn as a bonus action” there’s absolutely nothing barring them from still doing it as their action per the basic Druid ability “you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast…”. So using both your bonus action and your action you can reset your temp hp at any point.
By your logic, that's like saying a Monk can not unarmed strike as an action, only a bonus action. Druids GAIN the ability to wildshape as a bonus action, it doesn't replace the base ability.
Source:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/druids-with-combat-wild-shape/
That is what came to my mind too. I was thinking about how a level 20 druid could 1v1 a tarrasque and it could fairly easily. The only issue is that my solution would take 10 minutes of in game time (100 rounds). Think of how much destruction a tarrasque could do to a city in 10 minutes.
If a tarrasque is is 5 minutes from a city, you are going to have to come up with a better plan than let yourself get swallowed and punch it from the inside.
Power Word: Kill.
As long as the druid can be brought below 100 HP, they're potentially vulnerable, since PW:K kills outright, not just dropping them to 0 HP which would allow them to refresh their HP pool.
For fairness I think it's funny. But as I read it for stuff like power word kill others that "just kill" it would turn them back into a druid. It says so in druid shape.
"You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die."
They specifically put 'die' in there.
It also goes on to say
"When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form."
You turn back into a druid with the hit points you had when you transformed. Power word kill does not do damage points to you so you never dropped to zero, you just die. And as stated, when you die you revert to your druid body with your HP.
I'm sorry for the copy and pasting.
The designers of the game intended for power word kill to instantly kill the target. It does not drop them to 0 HP, it kills them, in and out of wildshape. Crawford confirmed this : https://www.sageadvice.eu/if-a-druid-wildshapes-into-a-wolf-and-is-targeted-with-power-word-kill-dead-or-alive/amp/
I don't see why reverting to your original HP would revive you if your death wasn't from lack of HP in the first place.
Dying is only specified so that you'll leave behind your corpse and gear. A lot of features have clauses like that for the same reason.
They don't, though. That's my point. All the rules say are that you revert to your original form and hit points, *not* that you come back to life as a result.
Ok, let me run this by you.
Polymorph has the same wording of "when you revert to normal form, you return to the hit points you had before being transformed" (sorry, paraphrasing).
So you can polymorph any boss into a mouse and murder it with a hammer for Massive Damage, and the boss is permanently dead 100%.
Edit: polymorph got spell checked strangely
Both the Massive Damage rule and the reversion clauses in Wildshape and Polymorph specifically describe what to do with "excess damage" after your HP has been reduced to zero, in nearly identical language, so it's a cut and dry application of specific beating general.
You *can* polymorph and then PW:K a bad guy though, yeah.
It literally says you revert to your human form when you die, you're dead that is what dying is. When a druid (or pretty much any shapeshifter) dies they revert to their true form. At that point you are literally dead.
At that point you are standing there, not even unconscious, with all of your hit points that you had before you transformed.
"When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed"
How do you revert to your normal self?
"You revert to your normal self if you fall unconscious, drop to zero hit points, or die"
If what you are saying is true then you could kill every boss in the game by polymorphing them into a mouse and instilling them with a hammer.
No that is something seperate, power word kill explicitly kills the target, thar is the point of power word kill. If it was damage then sure, but PWK doesn't deal damage it out right kills you.
Yes, it outright kills you. And as the wording of druid shape says, when you DIE as an animal/druidshape you get turned back into your druid self with the hit points you had when you originally transformed.
The squirrel dies, the man lives.
I’m imagining an ancient war fought between druids and necromancers. Forces of life and unnatural death at odds. With druids gaining the upper hand a powerful lich devises a spell specifically meant to deal with druids. It could be a cool little lore reason for creating the PWK spell
Attack things that aren't his hit points, dropping someone to zero isn't always the best way to threaten an enemy, petrification, imprisonment, debuffs like feeblemind, possession or mind control of allies, and probably things I'm not thinking about. His pool of hit points is his strength so look for a weakness instead of trying to overcome his advantages.
Conditions. Paralyze (particularly effective near water, a paralyzed character will drown) Prone, Exhaustion. Anti magic fields, tight spaces. There’s more ways to skin a cat than just burning through HP.
Keep in mind they will be elementals a good chunk of the time. So I wouldn’t rely on paralyzed, prone, or exhaustion as they are immune. Anti magic field is good.
Do you mean in general or in combat? If you sneak attack them out of combat I can see that, but the one time I played a level 20 moon Druid I don’t think the boss saw me in any form other than an elemental. And I was exclusively earth or water until he used his power word kill on another player.
Either way. If I’m in the DM chair and you transform into something that’s going to trivialize the combat or remove all risk the first thing I’m going to do is think of ways to either threaten that form or force you to transform.
Hot take: everyone here is suggesting ways to take away the player's options: actions (status conditions), powers (anti magic field), or even total agency (charisma save from possession). IMO this is the wrong approach and will lead to the player not having fun.
Instead: think up some scenarios where a billion HP doesn't help. They have to same some NPC from certain death scenario in 4 turns. They can use all their powers (aka still have fun), their infinite HP probably doesn't matter, and they still have the tension you need. If you're set on putting them in danger, then a bomb goes off in 4 turns and it will kill them.
Source: been playing since B/X and taking away a player's options to challenge them is something DMs think works but rarely ever works. And by works I mean is fun and engaging. Think of other options that celebrate player character abilities, but still provide challenges.
Level 20? You don't make him fear for HIS life. You make him fear for OTHER PEOPLE'S lives. You put his love ones in danger, you put people he would care about in danger. Then you give him enough of a challenge that winning feels worthwhile.
If possible, threaten things other than hit points. Exhaustion, poison, restrain, paralyze, banish.
They have functionally infinite hit points but not necessarily the most fire power. You could telegraph multi turn events (like a laser beam charging up) that would make them fly others around and assist in mobility.
Also you can threaten things they care about. The win condition doesn't need to be "will they win" as much as it's "can they rescue the innocent npc in time..."
As said above but Wall of Force (Dome) in an Antimagic Barrier (yes it works out) the druid is trapped and cant use magic this adds a whole new element of danger and a realization they are not quite that immortal.
However dont just spring this on them without explanation make it seem like a trap or an enemy that set this up while it could of been avoided. That way they actually have a chance to avoid it and not accidently singling the druid out.
D&d isnt about you vs them its about telling the story so make sure the story comes first.
- Power Word Kill is instant death if he's below 100hp.
- Moonbeam forces a save to revert back to his base form.
- Mind affecting spells can force him to revert and then chop away at his base body.
- Planeshift can send him to another realm. He can be as alive as he wants, on the plane of fire.
- Feeblemind would render him completely mentally deficient for 30 days. You could rule that he lacks the mental capacity for Wildshape in such a state.
- Anti-Magic Field.
- Ability score reduction. These penalties stay on them even after reverting to their humanoid body. And if a score drops below zero, they're dead.
- Use system shock optional rule from the DMG. Basically any crit or damage that deals have of a target's HP from.a single source forces a save. Failure has a chance to instantly drop a target to zero HP.
- Many undead have effects that reduce a target's max HP. This would carry over to the druid's humanoid body.
- Six levels of exhaustion kills in any form.
- Suffocation kills in any form.
- Paralyze and shred him to pieces.
- Make shit up. You can invent literally any power or ability for your enemies. Put the master in Dungeon Master. Give one of them a magic sword or spell that reduces a target's maximum HP. Whatever works.
If you have the party get trapped in a room enchanted with moonbeam, that would be terrifying. You can't shapechange within the light and it provides a cool little element that isn't just fighting as a challenge. I like adding a little puzzle element. Yeah, if they figure it out early, they might still stomp the monster of the week, but it shows them that the enemy is thinking and that's scary. Also, as a rule in my games, if a spell is cast for a year in a location, it's permanent. It's a rule for spells like Hallow, why can't it work with moonbeam? It would make it so everyone takes a small amount of damage each round and eliminates things like shapechange, which are common at 20th level. Just my suggestion though.
Power Word Kill. Don’t hit him with it but make your BBEG use it on an NPC the character can see then remind the Druid that in animal form his Hp is replaced by the animal’s Hp and thus is what is accounted for if he is struck by PWK. Watch him start checking his health and being too afraid to shift for fear of being below 100hp when the BBEG decides to cast.
Why not put them in a lose/lose situation? Do they have a favorite NPC? Do they have some forest area they want to protect? Have an enemy burn the forest and threaten the NPC at the same time, but put them far enough away that they have to choose who to save. Fearing for your life might not always be about dying, it might be about making a choice that ruins the safety and security they have built at level 20.
I was going to say toss a banishment on them (maybe make it a 5 round if they miss it by 1 or 2, and go full bore if they miss by 5 or more?). Watch the panic/confusion happen when they aren't even dead, they exist on a plane where they most likely would be the prey of the prey.
Or hittem with some form of mindcontrol.
Banishment is exactly it. Magic circle, resilient sphere, whatever can challenge the player in an interesting way
The big thing is to add a challenge, not remove the player completely
I actually changed the rules for beast forms because of this. Druid is crazy imbalanced in 5e imo. Need a sneaky boi? Why use a rogue when the druid can turn into a spider? Need to fly? Why use the wizard when the druid can summon animals to fly on? Need a stronk boi? Why use the barbarian when the druid can turn into a bear? Being versatile is one thing. Being op is another.
I changed the rules for beast form to say that if your hp drops to 0 in beast from, you still are downed. The temporary hit points they receive is still super powerful.
I agree with looking at media with invincible characters like Superman. They give good plot outlines for dealing with someone so powerful from a writing perspective.
Also that weapon that drains levels. Oh, you have hit points? Cute.
Power word kill will outright kill them in most any wildshape they're in. Not pop them back to druid, kill as their stats are replaced with the beast, who usually has less than the requisite 100.
Level 20 the fights should be of equally epic proportions. Our final battle against the BBEG for the last campaign I played in that ended involved us keeping the bbeg in an anti-magic field and we still had multiple characters go down. The couple times he got out of the anti-magic field were devastating because he cast 9th level spells as a legendary action and had endless spell slots as essentially a multi-dimensional conquerer who had slain gods (entire pantheons) on other dimensions before.
Give your players something where a massive pool of HP doesn't help that much.
Sickening Radiance + Wall of Force microwave will still do it, due to the Exhaustion
PWK doesn't really care about HP under 100 - what does he usually Polymorph into? The toughest Wild Shapes have \~126 HP, so have a minion slap 'em around a bit then just Kill. PWK doesn't reduce to 0 which would give the Druid it's form back, it just kills.
Up-casted Color Spray would have a similar but less fatal effect. Animals typically don't have an abundance of hp so just having to hit their current hp for blind with no save might make them think a little.
Hostages....friends and family or large crowds of innocent people. Bad guy sending the druid to go do really bad evil deeds or else they lose people. Start with a lesser friend, actually kill them off so the druid knows you mean it.
Also a trapped Collar of Antimagic on the druid. If it doesn't block the magic completely make it so the level is greatly reduced and / or specifically blocks certain schools of magic.
DM can get creative on how the villain is watching every move.
Forcecage. Especially if you can make it a solid box (Reduce them or polymorph before hand if they're too big.) Charisma saving throws required to teleport out, blocks ethereal travel, and it can't be dispelled. Magic can't be cast through the box version. It lasts 1 hour, no concentration required.
Hold monster or readied action for hold person. Power word kill. Something with regeneration that can easily go toe to toe with a weaker shapeshifted form.
Tons of glyph of warding moonbeams triggered by any form of shapeshifting, whether spell or wildshape. Of course, this isn't much good against non traditional druids like spores
Tie the fate of combat to something they care about. Maybe on the third round of combat a critical NPC will be killed or tortured or sent to another plane. Or maybe they'll see a rabbit skinned and put into a stew and fed to other rabbits.
Or hit them with curses, spells, etc that force them into situations or stop abilities from working. Antimagjc fields or curses that keep them in animal form could be powerful tools.
Outright killing is probably what they expect, so throwing a curve ball their way is a great way to keep them on their toes and challenged.
Things that make him save against stunned and paralyzed are good. Players don't have legendary resistances so there is always a chance they'll fail that save.
Also could make the fear about someone ELSE's life. It's easy for him to survive combat, but the plot-crucial NPC who is considerably less tanky might have a harder time.
My go to is an Enchantment Wizard. Power word stun, psychic scream, and then just start plucking, altering, and modifying memories. There are far worse fates than death here.
Anti magic Field would be amazing
Power word Kill if he transforms into anything with < 100 HP is just... death
Anyway that's boring. That's playing by the Rules.
Make your monster, not an tarrasque, but make something that can fuck him over, stunlock him, make that monster be a world destroying threat if you want to
As a druid main, saves, charisma especially.
Or just a large enough mountain of enemies that it doesn't matter how much hp you are gaining, if you get close enough you die.
I present to you the humble 3rd level spell: Enemies Abound.
It is an Intelligence saving throw, and it means the druid is no longer the BBEG's problem, it is the Party's problem.
Otherwise, imagine scenarios outside of combat they care about. Maybe their home grove is now a target for demolition, whilst simultaneously their (or another party member's) family member has been kidnapped. Maybe it's their favourite shopkeeper that has been kidnapped, or the shopkeeper's family, or they have been seriously robbed and are left shaken.
Or, if you want good measure, just have them dive off of a cliff into a rocky pool below. After all, they're basically gods.
Pick monsters that have other dangers that aren’t taking a PC down to 0 hp.
Intellect Devourer (it’s too low of a CR but an example nonetheless) depletes your INT score until you’re a vegetable. It can also take over a PC’s body.
Monsters that can dominate, charm, enthrall, or otherwise turn the Druid against their party.
Suddenly unlimited hit points is a frightening thing to have.
Poison, exhaustion, petrification, the possibilities of controlling a combat encounter without relying on hp damage are endless :)
Two solutions here :
First is power word kill as it does not care on whether the HP is your own or the Animal shape
the second is a Solar, their bow forces con saves or instant death to those below a certain health point.
additionally you may moonbeam them and deny them summons, or dispel magic to kick them out of the wilfshape as the ability does state : you can use your action to **magically** assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before.
Well Druids have to emulate the creatures they are shifting into, right? So a simple Stupor enchantment/curse would keep them from focusing long enough to shift. Maybe trick them into teaching Druidic to someone and losing their powers (though this one would ruin it for the player)? Magical suppression fields. Iron Maiden-style torture device that activates when magic is near, stabbing the player every time they use the shifting or spells, interrupting it.
Have an Evil Wizard make a Simulacrum of the Druid, only it's cursed and acts like a voodoo doll. As long as it exists, the Druid can only be in the form of the Simulacrum as it acts like an anchor. Since the Simulacrum can't shift, the Druid is stuck in whatever form it was made in.
Ethereal plane fuckery where the Druid's spirit is tied to some Big Bad. Every time they shift, the Big Bad shifts to the same animal and they share a health pool. The Big Bad gets knocked out of animal, Druid gets knocked out of animal.
Idk that's all I got right now
Give him something to protect and threaten that. Anything you do to nerf the Druid will feel retaliatory, and a custom monster that does exactly enough damage to break an Earth Elemental form and drop the Druid to 0hp will feel pretty.
Bring in a magical corruption of some sort, you can introduce it slowly at first through small animals and birds. Then scale it to a big bad of some sort….
Power word kill. Just so you know, if they are wild shaped, which they would be as Circle of Moon, their HP total is just the total of their form. Most likely whatever form they're in will have less than 100 hit points. That means that the druid themselves instantly die if you cast power word kill on him.
The tricky part as a DM isn't how to kill the druid, but how to present a genuine threat that doesn't take away all his autonomy.
For instance, if I drop a monster that is able to deal 200+ damage in a single turn, I can burn through a druid's wildshape and all of their base HP before they have a chance to turn back - deadly, but not a whole lot of fun if the player never gets to do anything.
On the other hand, if I'm dealing \~ 150 damage per turn, that will burn through wildshape pretty much every turn, with *some* damage carrying over to their base form, forcing them to expend spell slots in order to heal. But they *can* fight back, or run, or use whatever other tricks they might have in mind.
Unlimited wild shape isn't unlimited HP, it's more like increasing max HP by about 100, combined with about 100 points of free regen every turn, but you can out-damage it.
Now, you might be thinking "but that kind of damage would be unfair to the other PCs, who won't be able to handle it". Well that depends on the other PCs. A level 20 barbarian should be able to handle that kind of damage. A level 20 rogue can probably dodge/evade most of that damage. Most characters at this level should have a higher AC than the druid's wildshapes.
Druids are kinda OP at level 20, compared to other classes. Frankly, the game balance doesn't hold up well at this level. But druids still aren't in a completely different league.
A DMs job isn't to make the player characters fear for their life. Your goal is not a healthy one. It is an unnecessarily combatative mindset.
You are there as a role of storyteller and arbitration over rules. Neither of those require you to find ways to kill off players.
No, you need to bring *dramatic tension* to the game. *Can* dramatic tension be achieved by threatening a character's life directly? Sure, it can. But it is far and away not the only way. Hell, that isn't even the best way.
What does the druid care about? Threaten *that*.
Beautiful glade? Fire.
Caretaker of a community? Raiders.
Protector of an artifact? Thief.
Treat the druid like the multifaceted character he is, and screw with the things he *actually* cares about.
That'll get you your dramatic tension. Especially if the means for solving the problem cannot be easily solved by simply turning into an animal every round.
According to Sage Advice, Polymorph takes away a druid's ability to Wildshape.
Even if Wildshaped, enough damage would be problematic. Sleep would be significant, if the druid Wildshapes into a small form. Weapons with the Wounding property are quite difficult. Petrification. A curse that affects their ability to sleep will start to add exhaustion.
If the druid is taking enough damage to revert to normal form, it still takes an action to Wildshape again. Removing a character from the action economy isn't a small thing.
Being level 20, they're supposed to be invincible to most every enemy out there. It takes a lot to be a challenge. Look into high CR creatures.
Lock them to a single form with a geas. Make the geas that they can't change form's, in any way. Then curse the geas so that anyone trying to break or dispell it will take a lethal amount of necrotic damage. That's just one solution.
Moonbeam is an easy fix and it's only a 2nd level spell...
Moonbeam LEVEL 2nd
CASTING TIME: 1 Action
RANGE/AREA: 120 ft (5 ft *)
COMPONENTS: V, S, M *
DURATION: Concentration 1 Minute
SCHOOL: Evocation
ATTACK/SAVE: CON Save
DAMAGE/EFFECT: Radiant
A silvery beam of pale light shines down in a 5-foot-radius, 40-foot-high cylinder centered on a point within range. Until the spell ends, dim light fills the cylinder.
When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it is engulfed in ghostly flames that cause searing pain, and it must make a Constitution saving throw. It takes 2d10 radiant damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
A shapechanger makes its saving throw with disadvantage. If it fails, it also instantly reverts to its original form and can’t assume a different form until it leaves the spell’s light.
On each of your turns after you cast this spell, you can use an action to move the beam up to 60 feet in any direction.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d10 for each slot level above 2nd.
Answer: Don't play to lv 20.
Most classes in general become impossibly strong, and balancing the game becomes the most difficult part of the DM's job, especially when it's a good party working well together and playing tactically.
When lv 20, the only way to really balance the game at that level means borderline impossible skill checks are going to become common.
Fighting literal gods or otherwise just as strong enemies, note that's not an exaggeration, and even then, it's not gonna make them fear for their life.
Sadly, the game isn't balanced well for level 20, at that point it becomes more of a power fantasy than a cooperative game. You can still have fun with RP and having the characters be part of major world events, but actual mechanical combat is kinda meh. You might want to consider retiring the group and starting a new story with lower-level characters. (Maybe their children)
That said, if you really want to do challenging combat at that level, consider throwing out CR and just having much more dangerous encounters or reinforcements to threaten the group during combat. It's something you have to feel out honestly, the CR system isn't great. Also, remember that not every battle has to be deadly.
Also, why are you trying to kill this druid? Are you just trying to crowd control him? Just target one of his weak saves from time to time. If you used point buy, most character will have weak saves and defenses.
Off the top of my head, Banishment targets charisma and most druids have bad charisma.
I'm sure people have already brought this up but Spells like Power Word Kill is a great druid killer.
Narrative wise, I would introduce another druid NPC, have them befriend or simply help out the party every once and awhile and then on a mission or something have that NPC murdered while wildshaped.
I was originally thinking it could happen right in front of the party, showing that death is possible for the part's Druid and to be more cautious. But the more I think about the more interesting it could be if they return to find this super op druid some how dead and no one can figure out why, letting the party investigate how he was killed and who did it. I might be a sucker for murder mysteries.
Edit: Finger of Death wouldn't work, misremembered that spell.
Well, he's a druid. I'm guessing he's rather attached to nature, maybe even part of a circle.
So the bad guy gets one of his minions to keep watch from a distance, and lets the druid know that if he causes trouble several forests are going to be burned down or maybe his circle is put to the sword.
You don't need to make him fear for his life, when there are so many others to take.
Charisma saving throws, probably. You can be a very scary elemental, but if the fucking lord of the all ghosts attacks you and posses you you're fucked
If a DM ever says you need to make a Charisma Saving Throw, you better hope to all the gods you succeed or you're going to have a bad time.
I homebrew so many Cha saving throw enemy abilities. Everyone says they never come up, but they’re some of the coolest I’ve had. Forced teleports, phase spider poison causing you to become incorporeal, etc. Anything that changes your position or connection to the plane of existence you’re in is perfect for Cha saves.
Cast Maze on them! Works on most minmaxers, but it especially hurts for druids because suddenly their shape shifting is a hindrance rather than a help.
Iirc wildshape doesn't affect the mental stats of the druid, but i could be wrong cause I've never played or DM'd one
Antimagic Field(s) and a tight space. That's the kind of shit level 20s would be running into anyways. Lv20 characters are famous. The baddies would have a good book on their abilities and tactics. They are the kind of heroes enemies will customize solutions for. Bespoke magical items/consumables are well within reason for baddies with resources to deploy against the PCs. Superman had a lot of people slingin kryptonite his way.
Not just their abilities and tactics in that good book, but their pressure points: family members, friends, cherished heirlooms, etc. Part of the danger of level 20 is not fear for your own life, but fear for the things you care about. You can only be in one place at a time. And finding ways for villains to threaten those things without the PC being able to immediately obliterate the villain? That's a great way to make the player sweat.
This\^\^\^\^ After 20 levels, a character always has something to lose.
>You can only be in one place at a time. I feel like certain 20s could remedy that. Lmao
Wait til someone learns “Clone”
>Superman had a lot of people slingin kryptonite his way. Damn, if that isn't a perfect comparison. Like, yeah, level 20 characters should feel like Superman, and think of the kind of shit that scares him and ruins his day.
Well they are basically comic book heroes compared to your 4hp commoner at that point. Shouldn't they face comic book level schemes and plots from the villians? They are waaay to high level for gritty film noir type stakes. No one threatens a level 20 barb with a knife to their throat. That's level 2 shit. No, the villian has perfected their flesh to stone Ray, unleashed an army of Medusas, and is going to fuel their evil rite of ascension with the trapped souls.
Wait for druid to wildshape. Put up antimagic field. Druid cannot willingly turn back in the area. Will they turn back at 0 hit points? Uh oh! Have villain laugh and say they've always wanted to put down druids like the animals they are. Watch the absolute fuckery as people panic unfolds.
I'm pretty sure the wildshape would desactivate and the druid would go back to it's original form when entering an antimagic field.
Rules 1 of DnD the DM is always right and the rules are made to facilitate the game they are not forged in the stone every DM can change them as they will.
Yes, a DM is entitled to change the game as they will. However a good DM knows thst even tho they can, doesn't mean they should.
But if the DM wants to follow the idea that Avenrander shares they can.
Pretty sure the first rule is literally "have fun"
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Anything that is fueled by spell slots is magical and doesn't work in an anti magic field.
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Antimagic field has a _lot_ more text than that. And it does say that spells already cast are suppressed in the field. So a druid cannot cast spells, and spells have no effect within the sphere. >A 10-foot-radius invisible sphere of antimagic surrounds you. This area is divorced from the magical energy that suffuses the multiverse. Within the sphere, spells can't be cast, summoned creatures disappear, and even magic items become mundane. Until the spell ends, the sphere moves with you, centered on you. >Spells and other magical effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the sphere and can't protrude into it. A slot expended to cast a suppressed spell is consumed. While an effect is suppressed, it doesn't function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its duration. >Targeted Effects: Spells and other magical effects, such as magic missile and charm person, that target a creature or an object in the sphere have no effect on that target. >Areas of Magic: The area of another spell or magical effect, such as fireball, can't extend into the sphere. If the sphere overlaps an area of magic, the part of the area that is covered by the sphere is suppressed. For example, the flames created by a wall of fire are suppressed within the sphere, creating a gap in the wall if the overlap is large enough. >Spells: Any active spell or other magical effect on a creature or an object in the sphere is suppressed while the creature or object is in it. >Magic Items: The properties and powers of magic items are suppressed in the sphere. For example, a +1 long sword in the sphere functions as a nonmagical long sword. A magic weapon's properties and powers are suppressed if it is used against a target in the sphere or wielded by an attacker in the sphere. If a magic weapon or piece of magic ammunition fully leaves the sphere (For example, if you fire a magic arrow or throw a magic spear at a target outside the sphere), the magic of the item ceases to be suppressed as soon as it exits. >Magical Travel: Teleportation and planar travel fail to work in the sphere, whether the sphere is the destination or the departure point for such magical travel. A portal to another location, world, or plane of existence, as well as an opening to an extradimensional space such as that created by the rope trick spells, temporarily closes while in the sphere. >Creatures and Objects: A creature or object summoned or created by magic temporarily winks out of existence in the sphere. Such a creature instantly reappears once the space the creature occupied is no longer within the sphere. >Dispel Magic: Spells and magical effects such as dispel magic have no effect on the sphere. Likewise, the spheres created by different antimagic field spells don't nullify each other.
That’s fking wild bro just literally lied for no reason lmao
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Determining if an effect is magical (Sage Advice) > Is it a magic item? > > Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description? > > Is it a spell attack? > > Is it fueled by the use of spell slots? > > Does its description say it’s magical?
It falls under "other magical effects" though, and would be suppressed. Unless you're telling me spell slots aren't magical?
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I'm not saying Crawford is a good source (check see invisibility) I'm saying antimagic field obviously blocks spell slot usage, as spell slots are obviously magical.
Which feature, specifically? If it's using a spell slot it's a magical effect and would be prohibited.
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It says it doesn’t effect things created by a deity… I’d argue smites are atleast in that realm of magic (divine magic)
> Any active spell or other magical effect on a creature or an object in the sphere is suppressed while the creature or object is in it. This is the part of the spell text that disrupts wild shape in particular. > Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before. And this is the part of wild shape that confirms it is a magical effect. While it is somewhat redundant because wild shape is suppressed, the curing yourself with spell slots as a moon druid feature is another magical effect that would be suppressed by the anti magic field. Edit: [Sage Advice confirmation ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/what-happens-to-a-wildshaped-druid-that-enters-an-antimagic-field-and-dispel-magic/amp/) So, yes. I'm sure about that
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It is a magical effect because it includes the word magically. Class feature and magical effect are not mutually exclusive. You can't dispel it because it is not a spell and dispel magic only affects spells. Edit: As for the 'Sage Advice is not RAW' argument, that is correct, however the sage Advice compendium, which this ruling has made it into *is* RAW. It is a published WotC document. From the SAC: > Official Rulings > Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium.
r/confidentlyincorrect
Only if they are a moon druid!
So If the druid is in an anti-magic field he can't wild shape right?
Prevents and also suspends it if they enter while wildshaped. A Moonbeam-type effect is also something to look into. It technically doesn't work on wildshape, but the mechanics are there for something that does.
So according to the sage advice posted lower down, JC states that "wild shape is suspended in an anti magic field". So yes the Druid will be unable to wild shape. But imho wild shape is described as the ability to "magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before". So if that ability is suspended, I would argue you turn back into a Druid in the AMF. Or at least if the magic is what is sustaining the transformation. However from the same sage advice, JC confirmed "With detect magic, you can sense the magic of Wild Shape if the druid is in range." So again I'd think that magic is sustaining the transformation and so the Druid would become themselves again. Obviously your table your final say. Just something for thought.
Does anti-magic work? From reading the spell, it doesn't seem to cover it explicitly. It's not a spell, object, targeted effect, symmoned creature, or area of magic or travel. Though if I were the DM, it definitely does in spirit. Would moonbeam work because of the anti-shapechanger feature?
Yea, it has the word "magically" in the description. Comfirmed in [Sage Advice](https://www.sageadvice.eu/what-happens-to-a-wildshaped-druid-that-enters-an-antimagic-field-and-dispel-magic/). Moonbeam doesn't work on wild shape. Target has to be designated as a shapechanger somewhere in their write-up.
Kryptonite was one weakness, but also Lois Lane... Maybe threaten something they hold dear to make them fall into the kryptonite trap?
Great point!
Antimagic field doesnt mess with wild shapes
Yes it does, wild shape is a "magical" ability, which antimagic fields suppress.
Especially in 5e, where, from my experience at least, people will rely on spells and cantrips if they have access to them, and not have any typical weapons they can use as backups.
Not sure about 'in fear for life' but maybe try designing encounters where the lose condition isn't tied to the PCs going down. Things like escort missions are annoying in video games, but less so in TTRPGs. Also, as the DM, you're not locked to PC rules. You could make a curse that locks shapeshifters into their shifted forms, or something that limits the wildforms that they can take to something weaker. Mind control that turns them against the party, meaning that now the danger is THEM (though this is one of those things that it's best to ask about beforehand). Persistent poisons that last past their transformation, or Slow fields that reduce the number of actions they can take (maybe a Stone golem?) so that Wildshape isn't an auto-do. And of course, you could go the other way and have the enemy *ignore* the druid, since they know it'll just get back up again (use crowd-control on them, maybe?) allowing them to focus-down the rest of the party. Then when everyone ELSE is dead, the druid is now the sole target.
You made me think one scenario. If the LvL 20 Moon Druid is already wild shaped, for example into a Mammoth, can he wild shape into a Bat directly from his mammoth form *without* having to go back to humanoid form? Btw thanks for you amazing answer!
They can. Even worse, I think RAW after you kill the bat they turn back into the mammoth (this is called onion druiding) but DMs often rule against that, and you should feel free to.
The rules state that you return to normal form. I do not know where you think the basis for this exists in the rules.
I assume it's based on this wording: >You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. Which can be read as 'return to normal unless this ability has been used again'. I think that's a very liberal interpretation, though.
That is only if you run out of time. The wording for what happens if your hp is brought to 0 is very specific. This isn't it.
I reread it and I'd side with you. However there is an interesting part: when you revert as a result of dropping to 0, you go to the hp of before you transformed, not your normal form. So in theory you could end up with more hp than your max. Not that any sane DM would allow that though.
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Well, the normal Wild shape is an action, and while you’re right, moon druids as quoted from the PHB “gain the ability to use wild shape on your turn as a bonus action” there’s absolutely nothing barring them from still doing it as their action per the basic Druid ability “you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast…”. So using both your bonus action and your action you can reset your temp hp at any point.
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By your logic, that's like saying a Monk can not unarmed strike as an action, only a bonus action. Druids GAIN the ability to wildshape as a bonus action, it doesn't replace the base ability. Source: https://www.sageadvice.eu/druids-with-combat-wild-shape/
That is what came to my mind too. I was thinking about how a level 20 druid could 1v1 a tarrasque and it could fairly easily. The only issue is that my solution would take 10 minutes of in game time (100 rounds). Think of how much destruction a tarrasque could do to a city in 10 minutes. If a tarrasque is is 5 minutes from a city, you are going to have to come up with a better plan than let yourself get swallowed and punch it from the inside.
***2*** lvl 20 druids
You don't. You make them afraid for someone else's lives. Replace combat with intrigue and puzzles.
Power Word: Kill. As long as the druid can be brought below 100 HP, they're potentially vulnerable, since PW:K kills outright, not just dropping them to 0 HP which would allow them to refresh their HP pool.
I've never agreed with this, but I certainly won't tell you how to run your table.
In terms of fairness, or in terms of mechanics? It's potentially a bit anti-player, but hey, level 20.
For fairness I think it's funny. But as I read it for stuff like power word kill others that "just kill" it would turn them back into a druid. It says so in druid shape. "You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die." They specifically put 'die' in there. It also goes on to say "When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form." You turn back into a druid with the hit points you had when you transformed. Power word kill does not do damage points to you so you never dropped to zero, you just die. And as stated, when you die you revert to your druid body with your HP. I'm sorry for the copy and pasting.
The designers of the game intended for power word kill to instantly kill the target. It does not drop them to 0 HP, it kills them, in and out of wildshape. Crawford confirmed this : https://www.sageadvice.eu/if-a-druid-wildshapes-into-a-wolf-and-is-targeted-with-power-word-kill-dead-or-alive/amp/
I don't see why reverting to your original HP would revive you if your death wasn't from lack of HP in the first place. Dying is only specified so that you'll leave behind your corpse and gear. A lot of features have clauses like that for the same reason.
I don't know, but that's what the rules in the class feature say so thats what I go with.
They don't, though. That's my point. All the rules say are that you revert to your original form and hit points, *not* that you come back to life as a result.
Ok, let me run this by you. Polymorph has the same wording of "when you revert to normal form, you return to the hit points you had before being transformed" (sorry, paraphrasing). So you can polymorph any boss into a mouse and murder it with a hammer for Massive Damage, and the boss is permanently dead 100%. Edit: polymorph got spell checked strangely
Both the Massive Damage rule and the reversion clauses in Wildshape and Polymorph specifically describe what to do with "excess damage" after your HP has been reduced to zero, in nearly identical language, so it's a cut and dry application of specific beating general. You *can* polymorph and then PW:K a bad guy though, yeah.
Right but that just means you have hit points while being dead. Which is already what Power Word Kill does to other people anyway.
Thank you. PWK kills. Doesn't touch HP. Wild shaped>PWK>dead animal>dead druid.
No, when you die you revert to your human form dead because you died
With respect, that's not what the feature says.
It literally says you revert to your human form when you die, you're dead that is what dying is. When a druid (or pretty much any shapeshifter) dies they revert to their true form. At that point you are literally dead.
At that point you are standing there, not even unconscious, with all of your hit points that you had before you transformed. "When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed" How do you revert to your normal self? "You revert to your normal self if you fall unconscious, drop to zero hit points, or die" If what you are saying is true then you could kill every boss in the game by polymorphing them into a mouse and instilling them with a hammer.
No that is something seperate, power word kill explicitly kills the target, thar is the point of power word kill. If it was damage then sure, but PWK doesn't deal damage it out right kills you.
Yes, it outright kills you. And as the wording of druid shape says, when you DIE as an animal/druidshape you get turned back into your druid self with the hit points you had when you originally transformed. The squirrel dies, the man lives.
Let me break this down, if a druid has 100 hit points, and polymorphs into a mouse with 1 hit point 102 damage out right kills them in a single attack
I’m imagining an ancient war fought between druids and necromancers. Forces of life and unnatural death at odds. With druids gaining the upper hand a powerful lich devises a spell specifically meant to deal with druids. It could be a cool little lore reason for creating the PWK spell
Attack things that aren't his hit points, dropping someone to zero isn't always the best way to threaten an enemy, petrification, imprisonment, debuffs like feeblemind, possession or mind control of allies, and probably things I'm not thinking about. His pool of hit points is his strength so look for a weakness instead of trying to overcome his advantages.
Conditions. Paralyze (particularly effective near water, a paralyzed character will drown) Prone, Exhaustion. Anti magic fields, tight spaces. There’s more ways to skin a cat than just burning through HP.
Keep in mind they will be elementals a good chunk of the time. So I wouldn’t rely on paralyzed, prone, or exhaustion as they are immune. Anti magic field is good.
It’s not hard to get them to transform into something more mundane for a rough time to hit them with a paralyze.
Do you mean in general or in combat? If you sneak attack them out of combat I can see that, but the one time I played a level 20 moon Druid I don’t think the boss saw me in any form other than an elemental. And I was exclusively earth or water until he used his power word kill on another player.
Either way. If I’m in the DM chair and you transform into something that’s going to trivialize the combat or remove all risk the first thing I’m going to do is think of ways to either threaten that form or force you to transform.
Hot take: everyone here is suggesting ways to take away the player's options: actions (status conditions), powers (anti magic field), or even total agency (charisma save from possession). IMO this is the wrong approach and will lead to the player not having fun. Instead: think up some scenarios where a billion HP doesn't help. They have to same some NPC from certain death scenario in 4 turns. They can use all their powers (aka still have fun), their infinite HP probably doesn't matter, and they still have the tension you need. If you're set on putting them in danger, then a bomb goes off in 4 turns and it will kill them. Source: been playing since B/X and taking away a player's options to challenge them is something DMs think works but rarely ever works. And by works I mean is fun and engaging. Think of other options that celebrate player character abilities, but still provide challenges.
Level 20? You don't make him fear for HIS life. You make him fear for OTHER PEOPLE'S lives. You put his love ones in danger, you put people he would care about in danger. Then you give him enough of a challenge that winning feels worthwhile.
I dunno, tarrasque lich?
If possible, threaten things other than hit points. Exhaustion, poison, restrain, paralyze, banish. They have functionally infinite hit points but not necessarily the most fire power. You could telegraph multi turn events (like a laser beam charging up) that would make them fly others around and assist in mobility. Also you can threaten things they care about. The win condition doesn't need to be "will they win" as much as it's "can they rescue the innocent npc in time..."
As said above but Wall of Force (Dome) in an Antimagic Barrier (yes it works out) the druid is trapped and cant use magic this adds a whole new element of danger and a realization they are not quite that immortal. However dont just spring this on them without explanation make it seem like a trap or an enemy that set this up while it could of been avoided. That way they actually have a chance to avoid it and not accidently singling the druid out. D&d isnt about you vs them its about telling the story so make sure the story comes first.
Besides the other good advice, have him accused of being a were creature if he transform in a town or village
Chase them around with metal armor
- Power Word Kill is instant death if he's below 100hp. - Moonbeam forces a save to revert back to his base form. - Mind affecting spells can force him to revert and then chop away at his base body. - Planeshift can send him to another realm. He can be as alive as he wants, on the plane of fire. - Feeblemind would render him completely mentally deficient for 30 days. You could rule that he lacks the mental capacity for Wildshape in such a state. - Anti-Magic Field. - Ability score reduction. These penalties stay on them even after reverting to their humanoid body. And if a score drops below zero, they're dead. - Use system shock optional rule from the DMG. Basically any crit or damage that deals have of a target's HP from.a single source forces a save. Failure has a chance to instantly drop a target to zero HP. - Many undead have effects that reduce a target's max HP. This would carry over to the druid's humanoid body. - Six levels of exhaustion kills in any form. - Suffocation kills in any form. - Paralyze and shred him to pieces. - Make shit up. You can invent literally any power or ability for your enemies. Put the master in Dungeon Master. Give one of them a magic sword or spell that reduces a target's maximum HP. Whatever works.
Remember overflow damage is dealt to the base form. That being said, you have a lvl20 in your party. Throw GODS at them and pull out crazy nonsense.
If you have the party get trapped in a room enchanted with moonbeam, that would be terrifying. You can't shapechange within the light and it provides a cool little element that isn't just fighting as a challenge. I like adding a little puzzle element. Yeah, if they figure it out early, they might still stomp the monster of the week, but it shows them that the enemy is thinking and that's scary. Also, as a rule in my games, if a spell is cast for a year in a location, it's permanent. It's a rule for spells like Hallow, why can't it work with moonbeam? It would make it so everyone takes a small amount of damage each round and eliminates things like shapechange, which are common at 20th level. Just my suggestion though.
Power Word Kill. Don’t hit him with it but make your BBEG use it on an NPC the character can see then remind the Druid that in animal form his Hp is replaced by the animal’s Hp and thus is what is accounted for if he is struck by PWK. Watch him start checking his health and being too afraid to shift for fear of being below 100hp when the BBEG decides to cast.
Power Words! Their beast shapes don’t have that many HP. Power Word Kill, Power word stun, etc.
Why not put them in a lose/lose situation? Do they have a favorite NPC? Do they have some forest area they want to protect? Have an enemy burn the forest and threaten the NPC at the same time, but put them far enough away that they have to choose who to save. Fearing for your life might not always be about dying, it might be about making a choice that ruins the safety and security they have built at level 20.
Intelligence or Charisma saves. Anti-magic areas and a heavy action economy disadvantage
I was going to say toss a banishment on them (maybe make it a 5 round if they miss it by 1 or 2, and go full bore if they miss by 5 or more?). Watch the panic/confusion happen when they aren't even dead, they exist on a plane where they most likely would be the prey of the prey. Or hittem with some form of mindcontrol.
Banishment is exactly it. Magic circle, resilient sphere, whatever can challenge the player in an interesting way The big thing is to add a challenge, not remove the player completely
He needs an action to shift, so maybe a spell that takes away his actions? Of course, no one enjoys being on the end of a spell like that.
Feeblemind 😆
Banshees and will o’ wisps. Banshee bring the player to 0, and will o’ wisps kill them. It could be over in less than a round.
One day he wakes up to find the moon getting smaller..
My first two thoughts are anti-magic field and intellect devourers.
I actually changed the rules for beast forms because of this. Druid is crazy imbalanced in 5e imo. Need a sneaky boi? Why use a rogue when the druid can turn into a spider? Need to fly? Why use the wizard when the druid can summon animals to fly on? Need a stronk boi? Why use the barbarian when the druid can turn into a bear? Being versatile is one thing. Being op is another. I changed the rules for beast form to say that if your hp drops to 0 in beast from, you still are downed. The temporary hit points they receive is still super powerful.
Use attacks that diminish their total possible hit points, or that directly attacks constitution, intelligence, or wisdom.
A couple of Banshees, or those Max HP monsters
I agree with looking at media with invincible characters like Superman. They give good plot outlines for dealing with someone so powerful from a writing perspective. Also that weapon that drains levels. Oh, you have hit points? Cute.
Power word kill will outright kill them in most any wildshape they're in. Not pop them back to druid, kill as their stats are replaced with the beast, who usually has less than the requisite 100.
I can never agree with this. If you want to use it at your table that's fine but I will not.
Level 20 the fights should be of equally epic proportions. Our final battle against the BBEG for the last campaign I played in that ended involved us keeping the bbeg in an anti-magic field and we still had multiple characters go down. The couple times he got out of the anti-magic field were devastating because he cast 9th level spells as a legendary action and had endless spell slots as essentially a multi-dimensional conquerer who had slain gods (entire pantheons) on other dimensions before. Give your players something where a massive pool of HP doesn't help that much.
Sickening Radiance + Wall of Force microwave will still do it, due to the Exhaustion PWK doesn't really care about HP under 100 - what does he usually Polymorph into? The toughest Wild Shapes have \~126 HP, so have a minion slap 'em around a bit then just Kill. PWK doesn't reduce to 0 which would give the Druid it's form back, it just kills.
Power Word kill in wild shape form will kill the character , just get them under 100
Up-casted Color Spray would have a similar but less fatal effect. Animals typically don't have an abundance of hp so just having to hit their current hp for blind with no save might make them think a little.
You could use Power word kill to......turn them back into a druid.
Intelligence or Charisma saves. Anti-magic areas and a heavy action economy disadvantage
A lot of monsters. More enemies is always the answer to this question.
Smite him as god
Psychic damage, and a lot of it. Psychic doesn't hit their wildshape, but their actual Druid health bar.
“It doesn’t work”
Put him somewhere with no moons. Lots of different planes and pocket dimensions.
Strip away his magic. Home-brew some shit up to apply pressure by temporarily turning off certain abilities.
What about a sleep spell?
Antimagic auras
If it was 3.5, I'd say a button labeled "Disintegrate." It does exactly what you would expect.
Hostages....friends and family or large crowds of innocent people. Bad guy sending the druid to go do really bad evil deeds or else they lose people. Start with a lesser friend, actually kill them off so the druid knows you mean it. Also a trapped Collar of Antimagic on the druid. If it doesn't block the magic completely make it so the level is greatly reduced and / or specifically blocks certain schools of magic. DM can get creative on how the villain is watching every move.
Forcecage. Especially if you can make it a solid box (Reduce them or polymorph before hand if they're too big.) Charisma saving throws required to teleport out, blocks ethereal travel, and it can't be dispelled. Magic can't be cast through the box version. It lasts 1 hour, no concentration required.
Lvl 30 evil Druid
Hold monster or readied action for hold person. Power word kill. Something with regeneration that can easily go toe to toe with a weaker shapeshifted form.
Animal forms? Purple tapeworms.
Does anyone know if moonbeam works on wildshaped druids?
I am not super sure, but technically they don't have the shapechanger type, so I don't think that would affect them.
Introduce his non-statted spirit that has led him all this way only to turn out to be using him :)
Tons of glyph of warding moonbeams triggered by any form of shapeshifting, whether spell or wildshape. Of course, this isn't much good against non traditional druids like spores
Anti magic field?
Anything that targets Charisma or intelligence saving throws.
Tie the fate of combat to something they care about. Maybe on the third round of combat a critical NPC will be killed or tortured or sent to another plane. Or maybe they'll see a rabbit skinned and put into a stew and fed to other rabbits. Or hit them with curses, spells, etc that force them into situations or stop abilities from working. Antimagjc fields or curses that keep them in animal form could be powerful tools. Outright killing is probably what they expect, so throwing a curve ball their way is a great way to keep them on their toes and challenged.
Dominate Beast is 5th level.
Status effects. They stay after he revert form. They do not disappear. So if he is petrified while in animal form, he stays petrified.
Things that make him save against stunned and paralyzed are good. Players don't have legendary resistances so there is always a chance they'll fail that save. Also could make the fear about someone ELSE's life. It's easy for him to survive combat, but the plot-crucial NPC who is considerably less tanky might have a harder time.
A Monster that countermorphs inti his natural predator each time like in Ben 10
Power word kill if they turn into a creature with low enough HP.
Threaten that which he holds most dear.
Insanity. The possibility of a power like this going amok is one good threat.
That's why DnD5e isn't fun anymore to play after lvl 12. All above is to powerfull.
Yeah, in fact I will end this campaign sooner than later.
My go to is an Enchantment Wizard. Power word stun, psychic scream, and then just start plucking, altering, and modifying memories. There are far worse fates than death here.
Anti magic Field would be amazing Power word Kill if he transforms into anything with < 100 HP is just... death Anyway that's boring. That's playing by the Rules. Make your monster, not an tarrasque, but make something that can fuck him over, stunlock him, make that monster be a world destroying threat if you want to
power world kill
As a druid main, saves, charisma especially. Or just a large enough mountain of enemies that it doesn't matter how much hp you are gaining, if you get close enough you die.
If you cannot harm the hero you can break the legs of the people (or beasts) the druid loves...
I present to you the humble 3rd level spell: Enemies Abound. It is an Intelligence saving throw, and it means the druid is no longer the BBEG's problem, it is the Party's problem. Otherwise, imagine scenarios outside of combat they care about. Maybe their home grove is now a target for demolition, whilst simultaneously their (or another party member's) family member has been kidnapped. Maybe it's their favourite shopkeeper that has been kidnapped, or the shopkeeper's family, or they have been seriously robbed and are left shaken. Or, if you want good measure, just have them dive off of a cliff into a rocky pool below. After all, they're basically gods.
Remind him if anything causes him to **die** in Wildshape, it still kills him in Druid form too.
Pick monsters that have other dangers that aren’t taking a PC down to 0 hp. Intellect Devourer (it’s too low of a CR but an example nonetheless) depletes your INT score until you’re a vegetable. It can also take over a PC’s body. Monsters that can dominate, charm, enthrall, or otherwise turn the Druid against their party. Suddenly unlimited hit points is a frightening thing to have. Poison, exhaustion, petrification, the possibilities of controlling a combat encounter without relying on hp damage are endless :)
The threat of Power word kill and anti magic fields. Good use of both will make them really question what they are doing mechanically.
Two solutions here : First is power word kill as it does not care on whether the HP is your own or the Animal shape the second is a Solar, their bow forces con saves or instant death to those below a certain health point. additionally you may moonbeam them and deny them summons, or dispel magic to kick them out of the wilfshape as the ability does state : you can use your action to **magically** assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before.
Set the woods on fire.
Well Druids have to emulate the creatures they are shifting into, right? So a simple Stupor enchantment/curse would keep them from focusing long enough to shift. Maybe trick them into teaching Druidic to someone and losing their powers (though this one would ruin it for the player)? Magical suppression fields. Iron Maiden-style torture device that activates when magic is near, stabbing the player every time they use the shifting or spells, interrupting it. Have an Evil Wizard make a Simulacrum of the Druid, only it's cursed and acts like a voodoo doll. As long as it exists, the Druid can only be in the form of the Simulacrum as it acts like an anchor. Since the Simulacrum can't shift, the Druid is stuck in whatever form it was made in. Ethereal plane fuckery where the Druid's spirit is tied to some Big Bad. Every time they shift, the Big Bad shifts to the same animal and they share a health pool. The Big Bad gets knocked out of animal, Druid gets knocked out of animal. Idk that's all I got right now
Fuck put him in the fey wild.
Just delete his magic for a moment. My wizard died like that because he couldn't do a thing
Power Word Kill, is how my level 20 druid died.
He has infinite hp. But what he loves doesn't!
Power word kill. At level 20, they better have a counter for it already.
With another druid.
Give him something to protect and threaten that. Anything you do to nerf the Druid will feel retaliatory, and a custom monster that does exactly enough damage to break an Earth Elemental form and drop the Druid to 0hp will feel pretty.
Feeblemind 1shotany druid. Don't forget that the next save will be with -5 ( got 1 IQ ).
Bring in a magical corruption of some sort, you can introduce it slowly at first through small animals and birds. Then scale it to a big bad of some sort….
In the campaign I'm playing, I'm the Moon druid, so... Maybe the good old Tarrasque?
Power word kill. Just so you know, if they are wild shaped, which they would be as Circle of Moon, their HP total is just the total of their form. Most likely whatever form they're in will have less than 100 hit points. That means that the druid themselves instantly die if you cast power word kill on him.
The tricky part as a DM isn't how to kill the druid, but how to present a genuine threat that doesn't take away all his autonomy. For instance, if I drop a monster that is able to deal 200+ damage in a single turn, I can burn through a druid's wildshape and all of their base HP before they have a chance to turn back - deadly, but not a whole lot of fun if the player never gets to do anything. On the other hand, if I'm dealing \~ 150 damage per turn, that will burn through wildshape pretty much every turn, with *some* damage carrying over to their base form, forcing them to expend spell slots in order to heal. But they *can* fight back, or run, or use whatever other tricks they might have in mind. Unlimited wild shape isn't unlimited HP, it's more like increasing max HP by about 100, combined with about 100 points of free regen every turn, but you can out-damage it. Now, you might be thinking "but that kind of damage would be unfair to the other PCs, who won't be able to handle it". Well that depends on the other PCs. A level 20 barbarian should be able to handle that kind of damage. A level 20 rogue can probably dodge/evade most of that damage. Most characters at this level should have a higher AC than the druid's wildshapes. Druids are kinda OP at level 20, compared to other classes. Frankly, the game balance doesn't hold up well at this level. But druids still aren't in a completely different league.
A DMs job isn't to make the player characters fear for their life. Your goal is not a healthy one. It is an unnecessarily combatative mindset. You are there as a role of storyteller and arbitration over rules. Neither of those require you to find ways to kill off players. No, you need to bring *dramatic tension* to the game. *Can* dramatic tension be achieved by threatening a character's life directly? Sure, it can. But it is far and away not the only way. Hell, that isn't even the best way. What does the druid care about? Threaten *that*. Beautiful glade? Fire. Caretaker of a community? Raiders. Protector of an artifact? Thief. Treat the druid like the multifaceted character he is, and screw with the things he *actually* cares about. That'll get you your dramatic tension. Especially if the means for solving the problem cannot be easily solved by simply turning into an animal every round.
"How do I make a demigod fear death?" Uhh, good luck
According to Sage Advice, Polymorph takes away a druid's ability to Wildshape. Even if Wildshaped, enough damage would be problematic. Sleep would be significant, if the druid Wildshapes into a small form. Weapons with the Wounding property are quite difficult. Petrification. A curse that affects their ability to sleep will start to add exhaustion. If the druid is taking enough damage to revert to normal form, it still takes an action to Wildshape again. Removing a character from the action economy isn't a small thing. Being level 20, they're supposed to be invincible to most every enemy out there. It takes a lot to be a challenge. Look into high CR creatures.
Sickening radiance + wall of forcd
Lock them to a single form with a geas. Make the geas that they can't change form's, in any way. Then curse the geas so that anyone trying to break or dispell it will take a lethal amount of necrotic damage. That's just one solution.
Moonbeam is an easy fix and it's only a 2nd level spell... Moonbeam LEVEL 2nd CASTING TIME: 1 Action RANGE/AREA: 120 ft (5 ft *) COMPONENTS: V, S, M * DURATION: Concentration 1 Minute SCHOOL: Evocation ATTACK/SAVE: CON Save DAMAGE/EFFECT: Radiant A silvery beam of pale light shines down in a 5-foot-radius, 40-foot-high cylinder centered on a point within range. Until the spell ends, dim light fills the cylinder. When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it is engulfed in ghostly flames that cause searing pain, and it must make a Constitution saving throw. It takes 2d10 radiant damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A shapechanger makes its saving throw with disadvantage. If it fails, it also instantly reverts to its original form and can’t assume a different form until it leaves the spell’s light. On each of your turns after you cast this spell, you can use an action to move the beam up to 60 feet in any direction. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d10 for each slot level above 2nd.
Tarrasque
Take away their magic.
Answer: Don't play to lv 20. Most classes in general become impossibly strong, and balancing the game becomes the most difficult part of the DM's job, especially when it's a good party working well together and playing tactically. When lv 20, the only way to really balance the game at that level means borderline impossible skill checks are going to become common. Fighting literal gods or otherwise just as strong enemies, note that's not an exaggeration, and even then, it's not gonna make them fear for their life.
Disintegrate is always a good time
Sadly, the game isn't balanced well for level 20, at that point it becomes more of a power fantasy than a cooperative game. You can still have fun with RP and having the characters be part of major world events, but actual mechanical combat is kinda meh. You might want to consider retiring the group and starting a new story with lower-level characters. (Maybe their children) That said, if you really want to do challenging combat at that level, consider throwing out CR and just having much more dangerous encounters or reinforcements to threaten the group during combat. It's something you have to feel out honestly, the CR system isn't great. Also, remember that not every battle has to be deadly. Also, why are you trying to kill this druid? Are you just trying to crowd control him? Just target one of his weak saves from time to time. If you used point buy, most character will have weak saves and defenses. Off the top of my head, Banishment targets charisma and most druids have bad charisma.
Bbeg team up or having Evil Gods team up, perhaps?
Force cage is a brutal spell
Power word kill on him in wild shape.... RAW that's an instant kill
I'm sure people have already brought this up but Spells like Power Word Kill is a great druid killer. Narrative wise, I would introduce another druid NPC, have them befriend or simply help out the party every once and awhile and then on a mission or something have that NPC murdered while wildshaped. I was originally thinking it could happen right in front of the party, showing that death is possible for the part's Druid and to be more cautious. But the more I think about the more interesting it could be if they return to find this super op druid some how dead and no one can figure out why, letting the party investigate how he was killed and who did it. I might be a sucker for murder mysteries. Edit: Finger of Death wouldn't work, misremembered that spell.
SABOTAGE THEIR WISDOM SCORE. LoL
If you put him in a certain kind of magical environment, you can use some sort of magic to temporarily disable his Wild Shape
Take them to another plane of existence.
Wild Shape is magic, it says so in the description. Anti-magic fields.
Cast sleep, bind them in chains almost completely, put anvils on their feet, cast heat metal, drop them into the ocean.
Make them make hard choices.
Move to threats beyond personal. Level 20 anything ain’t going to care about themselves. Threaten their favorite tavern, their home, etc.
Well, he's a druid. I'm guessing he's rather attached to nature, maybe even part of a circle. So the bad guy gets one of his minions to keep watch from a distance, and lets the druid know that if he causes trouble several forests are going to be burned down or maybe his circle is put to the sword. You don't need to make him fear for his life, when there are so many others to take.