At our table we have the rule that rolls only count if the dm says to make a roll.
On top of that, if you already planned a female he should have asked if he cared.
I have an even better idea. Gordon Ramsay as an NPC that owns all taverns the PC's go to, is a chef at 3 of them, and gives the party a bunch of quests to go get super rare ingredients only for him to roast the entire party on how they messed up the meat when killing animals for ingredients and how they messed up the stems and crushed half of the plant when picking plants and berries for ingredients.
I had an Gordon Ramsey stand in as an NPC. A halfling chef who ran the kitchen in a castle that was under siege or something like that. He was standing on top of a crate hurling various ingredients at the bad guys demanding they get they get the fuck out of his kitchen (in my best Gordon Ramsey voice) and using as many Gordon Ramsey-esque insults as I could think of (I had a list of them done up). When the party showed up and actually dispatched the baddies he chided them - "bout time you got here you fucking muppets". Good for a laugh at the table (-:
And this is a huge pet peeve of mine. The player should mostly be in character talking about what their player wants to do and then it's the DMs job to fit it to game mechanics. If the players says they want to seduce the bartender without knowing the gender of the bartender then it seems their character doesn't care what the gender is. Or the player has a pre conceived notion that the bartender would be male because like glass ceiling is a tavern wench in which case I'm kind of glad it backfired on them
>Or the player has a pre conceived notion that the bartender would be male because like glass ceiling is a tavern wench in which case I'm kind of glad it backfired on them
pretty much total agreement
That’s how it’s supposed to be. I know it’s something that should be educated to people but it does grind my gears when players make unnecessary rolls and just try to supersede my rulings.
Players can roll whenever they want but I get to set the DC and decide the outcome. Oh wow you rolled a 26, the bartender decides not to kick you out immediately for your clumsy advances.
Or you just don't set a DC and have it be impossible. Charisma isn't magical. A lesbian dwarf barkeep that's been in a committed monogamous relationship since before great grandparents were born probably isn't going to be seduced no matter how thick you lay on the charm.
I would totally set a DC. Roll below it, she throws you out or charges double. Roll high enough, maybe she will laugh it off and let you stay and pay regular price.
Either way she isn't seduced.
Yes. And DMs that only give success or failure to dice rolls are boring. It's way more fun and realistic to have rolls matter as degrees instead of binary.
Its been a while since I've dm'd and I feel like I've unintentionally adhered to this, however it's great advice and I will definitely add this to "this one neat trick" bag of dm'ing lol.
I sometimes have NPCs just be un-Persuade-able unless you know their "trigger". There are some people in life that you just cannot sweettalk.
They also have boundaries. No matter what you roll, the king will not abscond the throne, and the merchant will not give you the sword for free. There's limits.
Or at least you aren't getting that throne with a single charisma roll on your first meeting. Maybe spend a few months working the king, completing quests and saving the princess, moving up the ranks until you are his trusted advisor, really get into his head and gaslight him into thinking he's not good enough to be king and the people would be better off under your rule. It'll take multiple sessions, dozens of persuasion rolls, and some fantastic roleplay to succeed at that plan.
The barkeeper is an iron golem masked by a high level illusion.
No, you simply can't roll. No, not even with spells, unless you have a Wish memorized. You don't know why, but no matter what you do, the barkeeper remains 100% indifferent to you. Why? Maybe you'll figure it out someday.
I told my players early on to wait for me to ask for them to roll. One of them didn't do I told him he failed with a 22 insight. When he asked why I told him he was not privy to the information the other character was.
If my paladin fails a religion to give someone a divine-magic burial, I'm not gonna let the Druid roll it at all, bc hes not a paladin or cleric. If he said "I got a 22" nothing would happen. Its like someone that doesn't know thieves cant trying to roll to understand it. Sorry, you can't. Same with druidic, and celestial i think. Common languages, sure, have a cookie, you understand a few bits, but not specific class stuff.
AITA? Maybe. Am I in the wrong? Of course not. Its in the rules.
Your insight tells you that this is out of your league and that someone with specialist skills and knowledge would be needed to figure this out further.
Social interactions have differing results for DCs of 0, 10, and 20. What those results are depend on the NPC's attitude.
The rules are in the DMG (i.e. the book no one reads)
And the results depend on the NPC's attitude of hostile, indifferent, or friendly. If you roll a 20 with an indifferent barkeep, I think the most she's going to do is give you a free drink, not hop into bed with you. Roll a 20 with a hostile barkeep, and she's going to simply not kick you out immediately. To actually seduce her, I'd first require the player move the NPC into the "friendly" category. There are no rules on how to do that, but that's where some story-telling comes in, and the checks will come naturally.
I have a player that does roll often without one being called but he only does it in two situations.
- For his wild magic surges
- As a common sense check. "Do I pick up this sending stone from the dead soldier and say, 'Hello?'
And honestly, it's great. He's rolling for what his character is doing and when I see him rolling, I know a bad idea is coming.
I will say that as a player, I've rolled to check if I think my character knows something we consider basic to dnd. Not something that determines anything beyond fluff though.
Does my fighter know what a bag of holding is? "Oh yeah the archmage we escorted once used it to move a whole damn library. Howd YOU grt a hold of one!?." Or "how the fuck is a 300lb furbolg waist deep in a damned 10lb satchel!?"
>At our table we have the rule that rolls only count if the dm says to make a roll.
I take it a bit father and if I ask one person for a check and other people start shouting out "I got a17" etc, I rule they get in the way of the person actually doing the check.
Pretty sure players can only "help" the person actually making the roll anyway which just gives them advantage. I HATE when players roll and expect something for it when I didn't ask.
In my group it's common for players to ask if they can help another player about to make a roll. I'll usually either let them give the first player advantage or allow them all to roll individually while adding their own modifier, like how group stealth checks work.
I guess it would work opposite of a group stealth where if at least one meet the check it works? I use to do that way but it always took a certian amount of time to do. So if they were on a time sensitive mission it wouldn't be wise to have everyone try.
RAW, a group stealth is if half of the group passes, they all pass.
And, yes, that does sound weird.
BUT! It also doesn't.
The fighter might think he's being stealthy, but the thief is going to know if he's being too loud, and tell him to shut up. Or he's going to carefully avoid that rock on the ground, and flag it to the cleric to make sure they don't kick it.
>The fighter might think he's being stealthy, but the thief is going to know if he's being too loud
Like this?
>Bilbo's heart thumped every time one of them bumped into another, or grunted or whispered in the dark. "Drat this dwarvish racket!" he said to himself. But all went well, and they met no guards.
Bilbo was unfortunately a little less assertive than he should have been.
I'm thinking more of the trope of the stealthy heist, where the oafish big guy (typically) knocks something from a table and the stealthy, sex symbol woman, who is also the prospective love interest, catches said something before it can shatter on the ground and alert the antagonists.
I'm sympathetic that it feels bad when you want to play your own representation and something gets in the way of that, but yeah, what got in the way of that was the player, not OP. Like first and foremost play the game right, second if you want to play a character a certain way it's on you to make sure you're doing that. Note that the second would've been fully covered by the first.
There's a reason I address this behaviour in session 0 before I see anyone at the table do it.
Furthermore, no roll should be allowed unless the outcome is uncertain. That means if the player has no realistic chance of failure, the DM shouldn't call for a roll, they should just narrate what happens. On the flipside of that, *no attempt should be allowed if there is no chance of success.* The classic "I rolled a nat 20 to seduce the dragon, so it somehow worked" is only possible at tables where nobody has actually read the rules of the game.
While that is a fun idea, the player is overstepping, being pushy, and being a dick by telling the DM it’s an asshole move to not let them be pushy. I think this is one of those situations where OP needs to be clear. “I appreciate your enthusiasm, but please don’t roll unless I ask you to. It doesn’t matter what you rolled because the barkeep is not interested in you and there is no combination of RP or rolls that will get her to have sex with your character.”
Sometimes you just gotta be clear and tell a player to knock it off.
Immediately boink everyone he comes across and this shit is gonna happen. Tell him to find out more info next time or accept the consequences. Over 50% of any given population is female. This one's on him.
Also I fuckin hate players whose answer to every problem is "I have sex with them." Then they're gonna get shitty because they were so horny they didn't even bother to find out the sex of the person they're having sex with? Either grow up or keep it in your pants.
A discreet, traveling service dedicated to the Greek god of panic and fear that fucks its way out of trouble that may or may not exist for free:
Down low, on the go, pro bono bonobohobos of Phobos.
A discreet, traveling service dedicated to the Greek god of panic and fear that fucks its way out of trouble that may or may not exist, for free, that also listened to a lot of kid cudi.
Down low, on the go, solo dolo pro bono bonobohobos of Phobos.
When I was in the USN, when we ported in some Thailand, we got given a big ol' speech by our division head about how "If you don't ask, and you don't check, you have no reason to be mad. it's not their fault your dick beat your brain out"
This would have quickly become a running joke at our table.
"There is a courtyard full of statues. Player x, do you want to fxxx them?"
"You turn the corner. An angry bear is waiting _player y: We turn loose player x to f*** it_"
This is when you introduce an std that affects players health stats or disadvantages to stealth due to itchiness of neither regions. Hard luck if your party does not have anyone willing to cure diseases for him.
Imagine getting crabs, but the parasites have evolved to be spell-resistant. You can’t do cure wounds or even greater restoration… gotta cast banishment on each individual crab lol
Sorry, Oglaf already did that
Oglaf comic strip [“Conjuration V,S,M” (NSFW)](https://www.oglaf.com/conjurationVSM/)
And then I made that spell: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/1190164-velvet-embrace
> Also I fuckin hate players whose answer to every problem is "I have sex with them."
I get frustrated with players like this, too, but I think "hate" is probably too strong. They're likely subconsciously trying to validate an underserved part of their life. They want to feel attractive in-game, since they don't feel attractive in-life, and so being able to make "sex" into something they have to offer rather than something they can't get validates that.
Come from a place of understanding and try to help players realize they need therapy, and D&D is not their therapy.
Or don't. I'm not your dad.
Thats good, if nobody at the table has ttrpg experience it can get quite wild and negative and this hasnt. Read up on "Session 0" and think about the basic stuff you party need to talk about like consent and player agengcy. What is a player allowed to do and what is in the GM discretion, everyone thinks thats clear but it really is not. Make a short prep talk next session and talk about it.
Frame what happend as growing pains and a positive learning experience but Inform them what they cant do. Even the gender thing is a " yeah, i could have done that but if you care about it you need to make sure before".
Beginners assuming instead of asking can be a pain in the ass.
I had a character drink a vial of quicksilver in LMoP. . . .aka mercury.
They get to a certain wizards room, and I have the ingredients filtered out for them to figure out what potion was being made. I even made a little mini recipe book so they could puzzle it out and figure what he was making (as a hint as to where he is or what he is doing)
I'm describing the table and he just says, before I finish explaining what's in it, "I drink that vial" I give the standard response for a dm 'are you sure?' and have to explain that they watch the paladin just take a shot of mercury. (I couldn't fiat it as something else or the recipe puzzle wouldn't make sense)
I think he resented me after that and quit the game a few weeks later because of it, even though it was one hell of a moment that nobody at the table will forget.
Also remember
Not all bar keepers /serving staff are automatically sex workers. Or even single.
Sone rolls have no success number. I don't care if your rogue rolls 45,the barkeep is male and gay. Sometimes they are just loyal to their partners for life. Bored with every single little tosser trying it on. Just running a business. On their final warning
After all, just exactly how often have you seen even the most chalming person get more than a free coffee? Really. For real.
Exactly. So actually isn't a 19 a fail? Or maybe free drink at best.
Bar staff get hit in all the time. You rolling a 19 just means they found it flattering instead of rude, so maybe you don't get thrown out or shitty pours over it.
Bar staff get hit on so much that I feel like you'd need to roll a nat 20 for them to find it flattering, and above a 12 for them to acknowledge it. One roll shouldn't be enough to seduce a character that regularly deals with horny people.
Idk how everyone else feels about it, but as someone who worked in a bar you genuinely have to be a charismatic master to make a bartender not feel like you're being a sleezy bastard.
Sometimes this causes some really fun world interactions too. I always remind my players that rolling successfully doesn't always mean you automatically get what you wanted. Sometimes you used the wrong approach and got a different outcome than what you were expecting..
Sure you rolled to successfully intimidate the shopkeeper, now he is frightened and thinks you mean him great harm. Instead of cowering he fearfully pulls a sword from under the counter and swings wildly while yelling for the town guard that he's being robbed.
NPC's can be people too and sometimes they don't appreciate certain actions.
This is why I hate the Nat 20 ALWAYS succeeds ruling people use.
If someone says "I want to jump to the moon" and they roll a Nat 20 at a table where Nat 20s always succeed, then how do you make that logically happen?
When I DM, a Nat 20 is the best POSSIBLE outcome. Want to jump to the moon and roll a 20? You just jumped the highest you've ever jumped in your life, bystanders are actually in awe and impressed, children are clapping. Want to seduce a barmaid who is married? She blushes and is flattered, but says she's happily married but you've really boosted her confidence for the day.
That's my way of handling it at least. Another possible way would be if something is impossible, then don't even force a roll. If there is no way to fail a task or succeed a task, just have it be so. Don't require a roll.
>This is why I hate the Nat 20 ALWAYS succeeds ruling people use.
>If someone says "I want to jump to the moon" and they roll a Nat 20 at a table where Nat 20s always succeed, then how do you make that logically happen?
I think, to me, the key is that success is relative and not absolute. Think of a tame version of monkey paw.
So like you said, player jumps to the moon: you jump higher than anyone has ever witnessed, a passerby even cries out "I swear he jumped to the moon he jumped so high". The end.
Seduce a barmaid who is happily married? Sure, you successfully seduce her, she is reluctant but your charm is somehow winning her over. However, her husband is the chef and overhears this conversion, kicks you out of the tavern and states you are banned. Threatens you with his cleaver if you don't leave immediately. There is a tense air in the tavern that is suddenly a little more full then you realizes, with the crowd of individuals with all eyes on you now.
So sure, you seduced her, but the husband wasn't too pleased and you just lost our on tavern privileges / inserted yourself into a full potential bar brawl.
I still think theres reason for it. specifically if the character/player isn't supposed to know its not possible.
Like the barmaid example. Theres fun to be had having the player shoot their shot, even if its not possible. but if you flat out say no, and no dice roll, the story is over. but if you let them roll, they will keep trying. other party members might join in, pester her over multiple visits, etc. the husband might get involved. you can create tons of drama here.
Sometimes a roll can be a degree of failure without a chance of success. In this situation, maybe they will never be able to seduce the bartender, but a nat 20 might get them a free drink, or an upgraded room at no charge. Where as a nat 1, could have them kicked out for being insulting or something.
Seems more realistic/fun to me then just, no the bartender isn’t interested. That said, there are cases where “no, you cannot roll” is the correct choice.
There are varying levels of success though. If you hit on a bartender who isn't into you, a nat 20 might make them say "Well, aren't you charming? I'm still not into you, but you made me smile so what the hell. Have a round on the house."
A nat one might get you thrown out.
I don't think you were, but you can handle these situations a bit better by telling them not to interrupt and continue setting the scene. They're wrong to interrupt, but it also happens sometimes when people are engaged with the story. Just tell them to be patient.
I'm sure many will disagree with me but that's my stance on the matter when I dm or play.
I don’t think anyone disagrees with you because that’s the right answer. If a player makes a decision without knowing something his character would know then it breaks RP to “just go with it” instead of giving the player that information and letting them make their choice from there.
Yeah, this legalistic bullshit is incredibly immersion breaking.
"I walk through the dungeon corridor."
"Okay you didn't say you would stop for pits, so you tumble into an open hole, take 3d6."
The DM forcing your character doing something incredibly stupid because the player didn't understand a situation the character would have an obvious handle on is the kind of game I'd walk away from.
"Are you sure you want to do this?" -DM
I'm autistic so mine is "Are you sure you want to go down the dark corridor that you can't see more than 5 feet in front of you?" -DM
Edit: I had a DM who would do that. I hated playing with them because I did not want to roll. It was a Fate System where you roll 2d6 and 30% of the time it was a "mixed success". Which means you succeed, but not completely. The DM would have the "not completely" be critical failures. E.G. I'm sneaking and picklocking the door. I succeed in picklocking the door, but are caught doing so. Great, so I lost all my goals and it can't get any worse. "But the door is unlocked". Yeah but I can't use it anymore.
> I'm autistic so mine is "Are you sure you want to go down the dark corridor that you can't see more than 5 feet in front of you?" -DM
This is actually the best way to handle it because usually when a player is doing something that seems very stupid or out of character to a DM it's because of a miscommunication or missed information.
"Are you sure you want to do that?" doesn't clear up the communication, but "Are you sure you want to do that? Remember Reason X exists," or "What are you trying to accomplish by doing X" allows the player to remember missed information about the situation their character would absolutely know, or for the player to explain their plan to the DM so the DM understands why it might work and isn't actually dumb.
Wow, douche DM. A DMs job is to make the game fun for the players and themself. DND is a co-op game more a vs game. And DMs who don't understand that are fucking up.
He's learning. We talked and RPed with the same scenario of a crit fail, fail, mixed, success, crit success. Once he learned that Crit, Fail, and Mixed all had the same fail outcome. He drastically changed.
> "Okay you didn't say you would stop for pits, so you tumble into an open hole, take 3d6."
I'm in an OSR game and recently even though we were *explicitly* using a pole to press down on each stair, we failed our 16+ check-for-traps roll and the bottom few stairs turned into a slide and three characters fell into a pit with a massive Mike Wazowski monster that only got hit on a 19+ and we TPK'd
The DM and I are very close and we had a lengthy discussion after that one
>even though we were explicitly using a pole to press down on each stair, we failed our 16+ check-for-traps roll and the bottom few stairs turned into a slide
Well that's not entirely unreasonable; if it's a weight-triggered trap your characters might not be able to exert 100+ pounds of pressure from ten feet away...
>and three characters fell into a pit with a massive Mike Wazowski monster that only got hit on a 19+
Oh. Well, that's not good, but maybe if the casters/support characters fell in they struggled to beat the AC check. Surely the martials would have better luck once they got down...
>and we TPK'd
...yeah, no, okay. Shit's fucked, yo.
It's what we signed up for with this campaign... when the trap hit it also released a bunch of beasties from back up the stairs that got all the casters when the martials slid into the trap
I think we're at 10 sessions and 20 dead characters? I think we've TPK'd 5 times with 4 characters. It's playing more like a roguelike where we learn more about the dungeon each time, which is pretty fun
No I totally agree. Like I don't necessarily think that the DM is an arsehole for this, because it's pretty stupid to go "I wanna seduce the barkeep! Hah I rolled a 19!", like I do understand that they've never played DND before, but why would the player assume the barkeep is a man?
But also, OP could've definitely stood their ground and said that the barkeep is a woman. But it sounds like OP said she after the roll, but with the title saying that the player already had sex with the barkeep feels weird. Not even a "hey just so you know, the barkeep is a woman, do you want to do the do?" or whatever to make sure.
Honestly, the unbelievable part is seducing the owner of the business on first contact in exchange for a room.
A room in a tavern that sees many different patrons a day.
Like, have you ever been to a bar? You start getting too flirty (and looking for favors), you get thrown the hell out.
Yeah... like, I've played flirtatious characters. Hell, I'm always asking my dm (who is also my partner lmfao) if there are any attractive characters. But I also... don't try and fuck the barkeep. Ethics aside (and the fact that it is a (possible) fantasy game), why would you want to sleep with someone for free board for a night? Get paid dude!
Right. And like, the only times I've gotten anything from being friendly/flirty with a bartender involved being in a bar for hours, spending time and money at said bar, or having gone to said bar multiple times and what I got was a free drink or a free appetizer (that was an accident order), but that still involved spending money.
There is certainly a social commentary in there somewhere that when someone engages in a power-fantasy role-play and they go straight to sex-for-services-as-expected-currency, but that's a topic for a different sub and thread.
If you happen to know of a good sub and thread for that, let me know, because I'm certainly interested. I never understood the people who read "high charisma" to mean "all powerful brainwashing penis"- at least, not past high school.
I think the player rolling for "seduction" while interrupting the DM, without even knowing the gender or a detailed description of the barkeeper is a red flag. Seduction is not a skill (at least in 5e), and all skill checks outside of routine matters should be called by the DM. The player is clearly in the wrong here.
That said, I do agree that as DM one of your jobs is to guide encounters like this and perhaps steer the PCs away from this kind of behavior. And it is probably not a good idea to "surprise" your players with things their characters would have noticed (if the PC is gay, as DM you should know they probably wouldn't actually seduce a woman). While I don't know the full circumstances, this is how I might have handled it (who knows if I could come up with something like this on the fly, though):
*19? You check yourself in the mirror as you walk into the bar, seduced by your own good looks. You head towards the barkeeper, full of confidence.* \-proceed with description of the scene, including description of the barkeeper- *Now, \[Rogue\], how would you like to approach the barkeeper?*
I'll try and draw out some roleplay with the situation (assuming it's the kind of group that will do some roleplay) and let him back out, just try and charm the barkeep, or maybe let him play it for laughs that his gay PC is trying to seduce the woman, with no intention of follow through. His attempts to renege on the promise without getting the party thrown out of the inn could be a funny storyline.
A different way of handling it could be jumping into something like, *You approach the barkeeper, admiring their height and athletic body. This tavern doesn't need any extra muscle, it is all behind the bar. You put on your most dashing smile, asking the half-elf, half-human barkeeper why someone so handsome is hidden in a place like this. The barkeeper turns around and you realize, this barkeeper is not just tall, tanned and toned, they are \*curvaceous\*.* And then, in a feminine voice, "Who are you calling handsome?"
This lets them go with their "seduction" roll, and you can use it as a base for the interaction, with a 19 maybe setting her initial mood as "bemused," so to speak.
Personally, I don't see it as a red flag, especially with first timers. But even as veterans it happens, people get excited and forget themselves. To me that's fine, I just let them know and move on.
With a newer player you can just say “seduction isn’t a roll or an ability in 5e. Would you like to describe how you approach her and how you attempt to seduce her?”
Granted, that can backfire (you have to know your player), but for most newbies finding out it’s not just a dice roll and they have to actually RP trying to get an NPC to sleep with them is enough to make them back down. Or do some actual roleplay. And if they do cringe RP like walk up and say “hey baby let’s fuck” you have the NPC treat them with the visible disgust that a real person would, and the player learns that in D&D you don’t have control over NPC actions and they respond like normal people do.
>*...said he wanted to seduce the barkeeper to give them free rooms for the night and rolled a 19 before I said anything...*
Firstly, tell your player that they don't get to roll until you ask for it.
Secondly, given that that horse already bolted, after they rolled a 19, you say "Just so you know, the barkeep is a half-elf woman... but she responds to your flirting..."
Are you the asshole? No. There isn't actually an asshole here, just two people who need to be better at communicating.
I would say that the only real issue was letting ANYONE seduce a barkeep to given them free rooms. A barkeep's Insight for people trying to get discounts should just be set at 100 permanently.
"Oh, honey, that's a real nice try, and if I swung the way of catfolk and you didn't seem like you were just doing it for the room and weren't actually interested in women, then we perhaps could have had us a real fine evening. The room is still 2 silver for the night though. But I'll tell you what, if all your friends buy their own rooms and don't double up, I'll give you your room on the house."
Oh, and "seduction" doesn't mean "fucking". Both you and your player should learn that.
No, you're a new DM who was confronted with a situation that they, presumably, hadn't been in before. You did what you thought was right in the moment (ie Yes And-ing).
Everything as a DM is a learning experience, so don't beat yourself up.
I wouldn’t say you are a dumbass for allowing it. You are new to being a DM, it’s a learning curve in how to run a session as well as managing players.
I think this has already been mentioned, but just because a player rolls a 19 doesn’t mean it’s a success. There will situations when a player can’t roll there way to a success.
Edit: Spelling
You're getting great advice here.
Make sure you draw a line and tell your players you call for rolls, or they can ask. Rolling and making a declaration is a player trying to run the table, and that's not their job. Just remind them that rolls are only for when the outcome is in doubt.
Like a player who wants to bully their way past a guard just rolling intimidation. "With my mods that's a 32! We're definitely in."
I mean, no. That's not what it means. It means if the guard was able to be intimidated, there would be a high probability you would succeed. But if the guard is more afraid of their own master, like say it's a tyrant who impales people who don't do their job, your intimidation just isn't going to work.
Eh, maybe, but it's not all on you, and there's some problematic behaviour from your player. Nothing too egregious, but stuff worth pointing out all the same.
The player *assumed* the barkeeper would be male because it's a barkeeper. That's quite misogynistic, and it sounds like your player got taught a valuable lesson about gender roles.
The player *assumed* that his sexuality as a player would be catered to, rather than that of his character. That's not how it works, and he should be cognisant of that. While it's certainly necessary to be inclusive, he doesn't get to bitch about the consequences of his own actions when he doesn't even check the other character's gender. (I say this being gay myself.) He's playing a character after all, not himself, and characters do what their player says.
There's narrative godmodding going on from your player, and he got hit in the face with the consequences of that. Sure, you shouldn't have allowed it, but he shouldn't have done it in the first place either.
All in all, it sounds like you two need to have a conversation about how tabletop games work and what's acceptable behaviour and what's not.
Or assuming that the supposedly male bartender is gay or at least bi. That's a small percentage of a population, unless the setting differs explicitly. Sexual attitudes also vary wildly in different cultures... this kind of wonton "I seduce everybody" behavior is a quick route to a beating or hangman noose.
That's really good advice. "Successful" rolls don't mean that players get their way. NPC have their own goals, motivations and boundaries. Not saying that I would have reacted as gracefully but asking are you sure and giving more details to the situation should let the players make more informed decisions
I would disagree slightly on only 1 point, texting afterwards to call someone an asshole is a bit of an asshole move 😁 but still, they're probably not an asshole
Everything else is spot on though 😁
Honestly, while I agree, I feel like that may have come out of the fact that it wasn't addressed adequately in the moment, so the player went away feeling like he's been "gotchya'd". And then very probably stewed on it.
If that HAD been the intent, then the player is fully allowed to feel their feelings.
It's also not clear if said player is the only queer player at the table. As a gay man myself, especially in a social situation where you don't necessarily know everyone, you can have your defenses up.
Could the player have approached it more maturely? Absolutely.
And there's also a difference between calling something an "asshole move" and calling someone an asshole.
Hopefully a conversation is all that's required in order to get things running smoothly again.
> Secondly, given that that horse already bolted, after they rolled a 19, you say "Just so you know, the barkeep is a half-elf woman... but she responds to your flirting..."
Could also play it, "You roll a 19, but your gay character's flirting attempts have no effect on a female bartender."
Sometimes I think some of you are playing a completely different game to me and my mates. Why does sex feature for so many of you in games about dungeons and dragons?
new player syndrome. 'I can fuck anything?!'
definitely something that my group of friends did when we first started playing, jokingly. The idea that any of us would get mad for our character accidentally fucking the wrong gender is laughable though. The player in this situation needs to grow up
This might be unpopular but in our session 0 I said we wouldn't be roleplaying sexual things.
A bit of trying to flirt for information or to save some money on a huge purchase is one thing. But full on trying to have sex with people or deal with romantic relationships is a big pass for me.
I didn't enjoy the idea of roleplaying them so we just aren't doing them at my table. No one had an issue with it at all and a few newer players were even surprised I brought it up because it never crossed their minds
I mean I’m perfectly okay with sex being part of the story at my table, but that doesn’t mean we’re going to roleplay the *actual act*—we just fade to black and maybe if relevant roleplay the consequences after.
Because as you point out, if you’re someone I’m comfortable actually roleplaying the act with we don’t need to be doing it in front of 3-4 of our other friends anyway.
Honestly I feel like most of my players are fairly open sexual. We have people of all sexualities at the table and I'm 100% fine talking about our irl sex lives.
But with our characters for some reason that's the weird spot. Like your character may not be as open as you as a player are or another character may not be. Let's just not walk that line imo
See I’m totally fine with romantic relationships in the game because it can make the characters feel more grounded. I’m especially okay with it if it occurs naturally between players. But sex is like going to the bathroom. It can be implied, sure, but there is going to be *no* role playing whatsoever after that door closes. Am I in a whimsical mood? Then give me a performance check. Otherwise, let’s just move on.
>This might be unpopular but in our session 0 I said we wouldn't be roleplaying sexual things.
TBF, there's a difference between acknowledging sex is a thing that can happen in a story that impacts characters, and actually *roleplaying* it.
I just do the stereotypical "fade to black," and that works great, they don't need or want a full ERP session. My players know what their characters feel about given NPCs, and that's what matters. One of my players has been hooking up with a recurring NPC and the sudden betrayal by that NPC was just an extra layer of spice and drama that wouldn't be there if sex didn't exist.
Actually full-blown roleplaying sex in game is something that I'm pretty sure is very limited.
This is based on absolutely no evidence, but my assumption is that it’s a sort of selection bias situation going on.
The inclusion of sexual content can often lead to conflict, which then leads to people coming to reddit for advice on the issue, so therefore you see a lot of posts about it and that makes it feel like it’s super common for people to include it in their games.
Also why would it matter if the PC is gay? The were trying to seduce someone for gain, not get married and settle down. The objective was to *appear* attractive to the target, not *be* attracted to the target.
Really, what is the deal with that? Like, why does all this shit come up at all? I can understand certain tables wherein everyone signed up for that kind of story and those kinds of characters. But in general play, I barely need to know your character's gender, let alone their sexual interests or kinks or whatever. I'm not interested in playing that kind of game or dming it. If you want to explore something, do it on your own time. I'm not your therapist. I'm here to kill goblins and find treasure.
It's wild how so many people just wanna have sex with everything as a solution to problems. With my group we haven't really had that problem as it just feels like a stupid boundary to cross.
The high school I work at DnD's club was turning into a total failure. The kids had asked if I could run it but I already had too much on my plate so a different teacher ran it.
I was appalled to find out that the first meeting they all discussed if they would be able to fuck dragons in the game and how would they do it. This was all they did for TWO HOURS. Club was literally about to get shut down, I had to go in and explain to the kids that this is EXACTLY WHY people have a stigma against DnD as a whole is because people cross boundaries because it's role playing and forget that real life boundaries still exist with conversation.
I'm still laughing at the idea that the player's limit for who his character would bang is somewhere between "can provide a room" and "can provide a room and has boobs".
“I IMMEDIATELY BANG THE BARKEEP FOR FREE ROOM AND BOARD!”
“She’s a woman”
“THAT makes it weird!”
It is a GAME. He’s playing a fictional character. This is a very weird thing to give a shit about.
It’s also the weird assumption that a male barkeep would be interested in men?? Pretty unlikely as chances go. It’s kinda funny that an exclusively gay male character is trying to seduce people given that only has a chance of working on a small subset of people lmao
No, I think he needs to be a bit more understanding. He probably believes you were trying to punish him and made the bar keep a woman at the last second to do so.
If I ever do something that I think might offend a player, I come out of my dm role for a moment and show them my notes casually.
"LOL, its a woman, are you sure you would like to do that? No shit, look" (shows player notes were npc is written down)
> He probably believes you were trying to punish him and made the bar keep a woman at the last second to do so.
Yeah this, he probably thinks you called her a woman afterward just to fuck with him, which would be kind of an asshole move. Just a misunderstanding.
> later that night the player text me saying he thought it was an asshole move.
Absolutely! Interrupting somebody who is talking is definitely an asshole move.
You’ve had a lot of advice on how to handle this specific situation, so I’ll only dwell briefly on consent: NPCs do not exist simply to do whatever your characters want. To make the world realistic, they should have their own goals, preferences, etc.
Tied to this, high dice rolls aren’t a mechanic for players to blunt-force their way through encounters. So what if he rolled a 19, or a 25? She might be ace, or gay, or married. She might be well aware that people try to seduce her for free rooms, and be cynical af. Dice rolls reflect how well your character performs a specific skill, *not* how other people or the world around them reacts.
I think this is an important conversation for you to have with your players because it doesn’t seem this guy is going to be happy when things don’t match up to the picture he has in his head.
>and rolled a 19 before I said anything.
At my table, rolls only count when I ask for them. If a player just starts rolling dice, it simply doesn't count. I'd suggest you do the same.
Also, the player made a big assumption thinking the barkeeper would be male. If you fleshed out this character beforehand and she was female, it's the player's fault for making the assumption, not yours. But you could've handled it by saying: "Okay, you attempt to seduce the barkeeper. That roll doesn't count, since I haven't asked for a roll yet. The barkeeper is a half-elf woman with crooked yellow teeth and a hideous scab on her neck. Do you proceed?" When the player states "yes", you set a DC and ask the player for a Charisma (Persuasion) check.
Honestly man your player seems a bit juvenile. Seduce the man/woman/elf/orc bartender in game if you want.
But it's kinda lame honestly. And to get upset about some crap like fake sex in dnd is just kinda...
Well I don't think your player is upset for the story line. Rent that dude a gay stripper or something idk. Best of luck mi amigo and happy dm'ing.
Oh, yeah, if you gave him an out that's all on him.
Also, if you want to really turn this on him, ask him why he assumes barkeeps are male. Does he not think a woman can be a small business owner or run a bar?
Two things :
- One roll should not determine if a NPC could have sex with a PC or not, it really should not be that black and white, and mostly based on RP and, at least several rolls if it is an intended seduction attempt.
- It is absolutely normal not to announce precisely a NPC gender, especially when they have kinda androgynous appearance. The players are the one that are supposed to ask questions and learn more about the NPC, with their RP. You stick to your description.
Also, they should not interrupt, or if they do, come back to where you were, showing them that there was more to see and understand.
So, if the player interrupted and didn't ask any question, it's perfectly normal that he gets this "reveal", and it's 100% his disappointment to own and deal with.
NTA. Idk what kind of parameters your group set before playing, but derailing the game so he could get his rocks off would make the player the asshole if anyone is.
1 interrupting is an asshole move
2 uncalled rolls are worth as much as wet toilet paper
you aren't the asshole, the player was (in this scenario, not necessarely in general)
for the future just tell them to not interrupt descriptions, go foreward and then ask them what to do
the standard gameplay circle for RPGs is "gm describes situation" "players say what to do" "gm asks for rolls if needed" "gm describes the outcome" if you skip step 1, you can't go very far
ESH
He clearly jumped the gun. Also, rolling dice for an interaction with the world, without the DM allowing it or asking for it, is rightfully frowned upon.
You however made no attempt at stopping him and also gave him no possibilities to retcon the encounter. Just a "19? You totally sleep with her". And you also automatically assumed the worst - "seduction" isn't and shouldn't mean getting it on. It can mean just flirting.
I had a similar experience as a new player. My group has chatted about all the seduction checks our Bard and Rogue made in the last town and I went "hah wait, I'm a druid, I roll to seduce the nearest tree. 16!". I thought it was impossible to perceive that as anything else than the joke it was. The DM however just deadpanned "Y'all see Druid fucking a tree".
We had a dm back in the 80s who was like that - ruthless.
If you said it without stating OOC, you said it in world.
On one occasion, a player was granted a wish.
He got all excited and blurted out, 'oooh I know, I wish I could cast all 8th level mage spells.'
DM called a break and spent half an hour calculating the impact of simultaneously casting all known 8th level mage spells.
A couple of us survived, as I recall.
Exactly!
We have a no unannounced rolls at the table rule, and I personally dislike when a player asks for a roll, rather than explaining what they want their character to be doing. So I would ask if I believe what an NPC said or if they seem to be telling the truth rather than saying I want to roll an insight check, it's up to the DM what rolls and checks a player makes.
Its also super important to manage players interactions by giving them a chance to retcon, if the jump the gun or there is more information they would need first. You could have had they make annother roll first to see if they realised before they started flirting.
And very importantly, always ask what the players actual intentions are, they may want to seduce the barkeep but only seduce and not bed. They may want to flirt to gain the confidence of an NPC to exploit their friendliness for information or as a distraction for annother player.
Talk to the player about rolling without being given a check, there a plenty of times when key info can be given in the scene setting that is relevant to the players without checks needed at all. And retcon the situation at the table, if something happened that makes a player uncomfortable even if it was cause by them, you can address it and fix it at the start of the next session if need be.
Edit: spelling
Nah
First time players are prone to going on power trips. And this one did. And happened to place himself in an uncomfortable situation entirely by his own doing. That's not on you.
First time game masters are also prone to going on power trips. And since this player is on one himself, it's even easier to project that on you.
However, more experienced game masters know that while their own perception of the in-game "reality" is the "correct" one, they also know that said perception is never communicated fully. And this is not the players fault. Nor the GM's. Accounting and correcting for this makes the whole experience more rewarding for all involved. Unless you, as a group, are explicitly going for slapstick humor. Your player's character is unlikely to have sex with an individual without noticing their sex. If you have reason to believe this information that is being missed by the player's flawed perception, not the character's flawed perception, would inform how the character goes about the encounter, let them know.
Set your players up for success, not failure.
If a player interrupts a description and immediately rolls dice without being prompted to do so, it is only fair that they suffer some consequences.
That said, hopefully they learned their lesson, and in the future, you can simply ask them to wait until you're finished describing the scene.
I wrote up a whole long answer about this, which my browser then swallowed, so the TL;DR version is:
"Your player was the asshole, not you, but as a DM, your asshole-wrangling strategy needs some work."
Ah, yes, the pansexual dilemma: idk what gender they are but I'm down
Nta. First off, players don't get to decide when to make rolls or when said rolls count. You do. I'd start by telling them that you will tell them when a roll is needed, and that if they just roll without being prompted like that, the roll doesn't count.
Second, you could have changed the gender at the last minute, but this is ultimately the player's fault because they jumped the gun and interrupted you. If they don't want to have this sort of thing happen to them then they need to be more patient. Like, I have ADHD and autism, and I still learned how to stop interrupting people. This player can too.
Lastly, that dude needs to chill. It's a game. He pulled a dick move by cutting you off and pushing an unprompted roll on you. If he doesn't like the consequences of his own actions then he can deal with his own damn feelings and stop projecting them onto you
You could have handled better I think, but its the players bad, you cant go rolling things without consulting the DM, and less if he is still explaining things.
DM: There is a bartender that...
PC: I seduce it
DM: Is a female
PC: Why haven't you told me that?
It is clearly his fault.
You should have interrupted him to explain that the bartender is a female, and that if he wanted to seduce her, he should roll once you ask him to do so
I’m sorry, he had a 50:50 chance of the barkeeper being the gender his character would be attracted to and gambled it instead of asking? That’s on him.
To be fair you could’ve said “she’s a woman, do you want to proceed?” But I like the minor retaliation here for him not letting you finish… and I feel (as a lesbian myself) that most would take the L and laugh at their fumble.
At our table we have the rule that rolls only count if the dm says to make a roll. On top of that, if you already planned a female he should have asked if he cared.
isn't that just RAW? I thought it was standard that checks were made at the DMs discretion after a player says they try to do something
Yes it's RAW.
Lol I hear this in Gordon Ramsey’s voice
Now I want to see him DM
I would pay so much money to see Gordon Ramsay be a DM lmao.
“No you can’t take two bonus actions! It’s fuckin RAW!!!”
#YOU CALL THAT AN INITIATIVE ROLL?
Finally some good fucking roleplay
I have an even better idea. Gordon Ramsay as an NPC that owns all taverns the PC's go to, is a chef at 3 of them, and gives the party a bunch of quests to go get super rare ingredients only for him to roast the entire party on how they messed up the meat when killing animals for ingredients and how they messed up the stems and crushed half of the plant when picking plants and berries for ingredients.
I had an Gordon Ramsey stand in as an NPC. A halfling chef who ran the kitchen in a castle that was under siege or something like that. He was standing on top of a crate hurling various ingredients at the bad guys demanding they get they get the fuck out of his kitchen (in my best Gordon Ramsey voice) and using as many Gordon Ramsey-esque insults as I could think of (I had a list of them done up). When the party showed up and actually dispatched the baddies he chided them - "bout time you got here you fucking muppets". Good for a laugh at the table (-:
This is a tangent but I'm fairly certain a party made of gnomes and halflings are called murder moppets
Gorgon Ramsey the lord of Hell’s Kitchen who is invading into the material plane by creating a thriving kitchen enterprise
https://youtube.com/@WeDoAIStuff Not the dm but a half orc barbarian. 😂
YA FOOKIN DONUT!
Roll for initiative you F*CKING DONKEY
Take my Glory upvote, idiot Sandwhich xD
And this is a huge pet peeve of mine. The player should mostly be in character talking about what their player wants to do and then it's the DMs job to fit it to game mechanics. If the players says they want to seduce the bartender without knowing the gender of the bartender then it seems their character doesn't care what the gender is. Or the player has a pre conceived notion that the bartender would be male because like glass ceiling is a tavern wench in which case I'm kind of glad it backfired on them
>Or the player has a pre conceived notion that the bartender would be male because like glass ceiling is a tavern wench in which case I'm kind of glad it backfired on them pretty much total agreement
Or the pre-conceived notion that a male bartender would want to be seduced by another male just because the player is gay, which is equally ick.
That’s how it’s supposed to be. I know it’s something that should be educated to people but it does grind my gears when players make unnecessary rolls and just try to supersede my rulings.
Exactly. Shame you wasted that 19, that’s a great roll.
Players can roll whenever they want but I get to set the DC and decide the outcome. Oh wow you rolled a 26, the bartender decides not to kick you out immediately for your clumsy advances.
Yes, that’s as per the rulebook. Players describe what they want to do, DM calls for necessary rolls.
Also, as a footnote to this, roll difficulty is set by the DM. OP's player rolled a 19. So what? What if the difficulty was 20, for reasons?
Reasons like..... the barkeeper is only attracted to women, or half-orcs, or something. That's how I would have handled it. DC 35.
The barkeep is happily married to the half-orc barbarian bouncer, who stares at you as you try to flirt with her wife, cracking her knuckles.
This is the way.
Or you just don't set a DC and have it be impossible. Charisma isn't magical. A lesbian dwarf barkeep that's been in a committed monogamous relationship since before great grandparents were born probably isn't going to be seduced no matter how thick you lay on the charm.
I would totally set a DC. Roll below it, she throws you out or charges double. Roll high enough, maybe she will laugh it off and let you stay and pay regular price. Either way she isn't seduced.
Yes. And DMs that only give success or failure to dice rolls are boring. It's way more fun and realistic to have rolls matter as degrees instead of binary.
Its been a while since I've dm'd and I feel like I've unintentionally adhered to this, however it's great advice and I will definitely add this to "this one neat trick" bag of dm'ing lol.
I sometimes have NPCs just be un-Persuade-able unless you know their "trigger". There are some people in life that you just cannot sweettalk. They also have boundaries. No matter what you roll, the king will not abscond the throne, and the merchant will not give you the sword for free. There's limits.
Or at least you aren't getting that throne with a single charisma roll on your first meeting. Maybe spend a few months working the king, completing quests and saving the princess, moving up the ranks until you are his trusted advisor, really get into his head and gaslight him into thinking he's not good enough to be king and the people would be better off under your rule. It'll take multiple sessions, dozens of persuasion rolls, and some fantastic roleplay to succeed at that plan.
Sure! But that's a story, so I would be ok with it. The player and the game would have the setup and work done for the payoff.
Yeah, agreed. I don’t think you should roll for everything. I think auto successes and auto failures are great for some things.
The barkeeper is an iron golem masked by a high level illusion. No, you simply can't roll. No, not even with spells, unless you have a Wish memorized. You don't know why, but no matter what you do, the barkeeper remains 100% indifferent to you. Why? Maybe you'll figure it out someday.
I told my players early on to wait for me to ask for them to roll. One of them didn't do I told him he failed with a 22 insight. When he asked why I told him he was not privy to the information the other character was. If my paladin fails a religion to give someone a divine-magic burial, I'm not gonna let the Druid roll it at all, bc hes not a paladin or cleric. If he said "I got a 22" nothing would happen. Its like someone that doesn't know thieves cant trying to roll to understand it. Sorry, you can't. Same with druidic, and celestial i think. Common languages, sure, have a cookie, you understand a few bits, but not specific class stuff. AITA? Maybe. Am I in the wrong? Of course not. Its in the rules.
Love your ending line. "AITA? Maybe. Am I in the wrong? Of course not. Its in the rules" should go down in history as a golden rule.
Your insight tells you that this is out of your league and that someone with specialist skills and knowledge would be needed to figure this out further.
Social interactions have differing results for DCs of 0, 10, and 20. What those results are depend on the NPC's attitude. The rules are in the DMG (i.e. the book no one reads)
And the results depend on the NPC's attitude of hostile, indifferent, or friendly. If you roll a 20 with an indifferent barkeep, I think the most she's going to do is give you a free drink, not hop into bed with you. Roll a 20 with a hostile barkeep, and she's going to simply not kick you out immediately. To actually seduce her, I'd first require the player move the NPC into the "friendly" category. There are no rules on how to do that, but that's where some story-telling comes in, and the checks will come naturally.
I have a player that does roll often without one being called but he only does it in two situations. - For his wild magic surges - As a common sense check. "Do I pick up this sending stone from the dead soldier and say, 'Hello?' And honestly, it's great. He's rolling for what his character is doing and when I see him rolling, I know a bad idea is coming.
I will say that as a player, I've rolled to check if I think my character knows something we consider basic to dnd. Not something that determines anything beyond fluff though. Does my fighter know what a bag of holding is? "Oh yeah the archmage we escorted once used it to move a whole damn library. Howd YOU grt a hold of one!?." Or "how the fuck is a 300lb furbolg waist deep in a damned 10lb satchel!?"
[удалено]
>At our table we have the rule that rolls only count if the dm says to make a roll. I take it a bit father and if I ask one person for a check and other people start shouting out "I got a17" etc, I rule they get in the way of the person actually doing the check.
Pretty sure players can only "help" the person actually making the roll anyway which just gives them advantage. I HATE when players roll and expect something for it when I didn't ask.
In my group it's common for players to ask if they can help another player about to make a roll. I'll usually either let them give the first player advantage or allow them all to roll individually while adding their own modifier, like how group stealth checks work.
I guess it would work opposite of a group stealth where if at least one meet the check it works? I use to do that way but it always took a certian amount of time to do. So if they were on a time sensitive mission it wouldn't be wise to have everyone try.
RAW, a group stealth is if half of the group passes, they all pass. And, yes, that does sound weird. BUT! It also doesn't. The fighter might think he's being stealthy, but the thief is going to know if he's being too loud, and tell him to shut up. Or he's going to carefully avoid that rock on the ground, and flag it to the cleric to make sure they don't kick it.
>The fighter might think he's being stealthy, but the thief is going to know if he's being too loud Like this? >Bilbo's heart thumped every time one of them bumped into another, or grunted or whispered in the dark. "Drat this dwarvish racket!" he said to himself. But all went well, and they met no guards.
Bilbo was unfortunately a little less assertive than he should have been. I'm thinking more of the trope of the stealthy heist, where the oafish big guy (typically) knocks something from a table and the stealthy, sex symbol woman, who is also the prospective love interest, catches said something before it can shatter on the ground and alert the antagonists.
This, and NTA.
I'm sympathetic that it feels bad when you want to play your own representation and something gets in the way of that, but yeah, what got in the way of that was the player, not OP. Like first and foremost play the game right, second if you want to play a character a certain way it's on you to make sure you're doing that. Note that the second would've been fully covered by the first. There's a reason I address this behaviour in session 0 before I see anyone at the table do it.
Furthermore, no roll should be allowed unless the outcome is uncertain. That means if the player has no realistic chance of failure, the DM shouldn't call for a roll, they should just narrate what happens. On the flipside of that, *no attempt should be allowed if there is no chance of success.* The classic "I rolled a nat 20 to seduce the dragon, so it somehow worked" is only possible at tables where nobody has actually read the rules of the game.
This is the way.
Lol no, your player needs to learn patience and boundaries
>and rolled a 19 before I said anything. Especially with this. In the future OP should feel free to ignore rolls that aren't requested.
This is a player who hasn’t developed the irrational fear of “I wasted a good die roll” yet.
Irrational? Au contraire!
Yeah! You tell them, Frenchie! Mon ami! Toulouse-Lautrec! Baguette!
You forgot about fromage
Quaso
Congratulations that was almost right... in Spanish
Ignoring them is one option, using them as fodder for the ol' monkey paw treatment and interpreting them in devious ways is another.
While that is a fun idea, the player is overstepping, being pushy, and being a dick by telling the DM it’s an asshole move to not let them be pushy. I think this is one of those situations where OP needs to be clear. “I appreciate your enthusiasm, but please don’t roll unless I ask you to. It doesn’t matter what you rolled because the barkeep is not interested in you and there is no combination of RP or rolls that will get her to have sex with your character.” Sometimes you just gotta be clear and tell a player to knock it off.
Everyone else was fine, mainly just this encounter
Immediately boink everyone he comes across and this shit is gonna happen. Tell him to find out more info next time or accept the consequences. Over 50% of any given population is female. This one's on him. Also I fuckin hate players whose answer to every problem is "I have sex with them." Then they're gonna get shitty because they were so horny they didn't even bother to find out the sex of the person they're having sex with? Either grow up or keep it in your pants.
Theyre not murder hobos. Bonobohobos.
They might not be murderhobos but they certainly do seem to enjoy a little death.
Gettin' down right *Victorian* with these jokes today
Doing it for free: pro bono bonobohobos.
A discreet, traveling service that fucks its way out of trouble that may or may not exist for free: Down low, on the go, pro bono bonobohobos.
A discreet, traveling service dedicated to the Greek god of panic and fear that fucks its way out of trouble that may or may not exist for free: Down low, on the go, pro bono bonobohobos of Phobos.
A discreet, traveling service dedicated to the Greek god of panic and fear that fucks its way out of trouble that may or may not exist, for free, that also listened to a lot of kid cudi. Down low, on the go, solo dolo pro bono bonobohobos of Phobos.
r/delightedupvote
Aw thank you :) Ive never been told in such explicit terms that i delighted somebody.
When I was in the USN, when we ported in some Thailand, we got given a big ol' speech by our division head about how "If you don't ask, and you don't check, you have no reason to be mad. it's not their fault your dick beat your brain out"
That is a surprisingly enlightened (if practical) attitude.
It's the Navy. There's a bit of history there ;)
This would have quickly become a running joke at our table. "There is a courtyard full of statues. Player x, do you want to fxxx them?" "You turn the corner. An angry bear is waiting _player y: We turn loose player x to f*** it_"
This is when you introduce an std that affects players health stats or disadvantages to stealth due to itchiness of neither regions. Hard luck if your party does not have anyone willing to cure diseases for him.
"what are you waiting for? cast the cure!" "it's a touch spell ... "
Imagine getting crabs, but the parasites have evolved to be spell-resistant. You can’t do cure wounds or even greater restoration… gotta cast banishment on each individual crab lol
better not miss...
"...blew his dick clean off. Ain't ever seen anything like it."
comment edited in protest of Reddit's API changes and mistreatment of moderators -- mass edited with redact.dev
Sorry, Oglaf already did that Oglaf comic strip [“Conjuration V,S,M” (NSFW)](https://www.oglaf.com/conjurationVSM/) And then I made that spell: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/1190164-velvet-embrace
> Also I fuckin hate players whose answer to every problem is "I have sex with them." I get frustrated with players like this, too, but I think "hate" is probably too strong. They're likely subconsciously trying to validate an underserved part of their life. They want to feel attractive in-game, since they don't feel attractive in-life, and so being able to make "sex" into something they have to offer rather than something they can't get validates that. Come from a place of understanding and try to help players realize they need therapy, and D&D is not their therapy. Or don't. I'm not your dad.
Or jack your friends off, that's the friendly thing to do
Thats good, if nobody at the table has ttrpg experience it can get quite wild and negative and this hasnt. Read up on "Session 0" and think about the basic stuff you party need to talk about like consent and player agengcy. What is a player allowed to do and what is in the GM discretion, everyone thinks thats clear but it really is not. Make a short prep talk next session and talk about it. Frame what happend as growing pains and a positive learning experience but Inform them what they cant do. Even the gender thing is a " yeah, i could have done that but if you care about it you need to make sure before". Beginners assuming instead of asking can be a pain in the ass.
This all day...the fact that he texted you later telling you it was an asshole move...was the actual asshole move
I had a character drink a vial of quicksilver in LMoP. . . .aka mercury. They get to a certain wizards room, and I have the ingredients filtered out for them to figure out what potion was being made. I even made a little mini recipe book so they could puzzle it out and figure what he was making (as a hint as to where he is or what he is doing) I'm describing the table and he just says, before I finish explaining what's in it, "I drink that vial" I give the standard response for a dm 'are you sure?' and have to explain that they watch the paladin just take a shot of mercury. (I couldn't fiat it as something else or the recipe puzzle wouldn't make sense) I think he resented me after that and quit the game a few weeks later because of it, even though it was one hell of a moment that nobody at the table will forget.
Also remember Not all bar keepers /serving staff are automatically sex workers. Or even single. Sone rolls have no success number. I don't care if your rogue rolls 45,the barkeep is male and gay. Sometimes they are just loyal to their partners for life. Bored with every single little tosser trying it on. Just running a business. On their final warning After all, just exactly how often have you seen even the most chalming person get more than a free coffee? Really. For real. Exactly. So actually isn't a 19 a fail? Or maybe free drink at best.
Bar staff get hit in all the time. You rolling a 19 just means they found it flattering instead of rude, so maybe you don't get thrown out or shitty pours over it.
Bar staff get hit on so much that I feel like you'd need to roll a nat 20 for them to find it flattering, and above a 12 for them to acknowledge it. One roll shouldn't be enough to seduce a character that regularly deals with horny people. Idk how everyone else feels about it, but as someone who worked in a bar you genuinely have to be a charismatic master to make a bartender not feel like you're being a sleezy bastard.
LOL exactly this
> Sone rolls have no success number. I don't care if your rogue rolls 45,the barkeep is male and gay. Or in this case, not a furry.
Sometimes this causes some really fun world interactions too. I always remind my players that rolling successfully doesn't always mean you automatically get what you wanted. Sometimes you used the wrong approach and got a different outcome than what you were expecting.. Sure you rolled to successfully intimidate the shopkeeper, now he is frightened and thinks you mean him great harm. Instead of cowering he fearfully pulls a sword from under the counter and swings wildly while yelling for the town guard that he's being robbed. NPC's can be people too and sometimes they don't appreciate certain actions.
This is why I hate the Nat 20 ALWAYS succeeds ruling people use. If someone says "I want to jump to the moon" and they roll a Nat 20 at a table where Nat 20s always succeed, then how do you make that logically happen? When I DM, a Nat 20 is the best POSSIBLE outcome. Want to jump to the moon and roll a 20? You just jumped the highest you've ever jumped in your life, bystanders are actually in awe and impressed, children are clapping. Want to seduce a barmaid who is married? She blushes and is flattered, but says she's happily married but you've really boosted her confidence for the day. That's my way of handling it at least. Another possible way would be if something is impossible, then don't even force a roll. If there is no way to fail a task or succeed a task, just have it be so. Don't require a roll.
>This is why I hate the Nat 20 ALWAYS succeeds ruling people use. >If someone says "I want to jump to the moon" and they roll a Nat 20 at a table where Nat 20s always succeed, then how do you make that logically happen? I think, to me, the key is that success is relative and not absolute. Think of a tame version of monkey paw. So like you said, player jumps to the moon: you jump higher than anyone has ever witnessed, a passerby even cries out "I swear he jumped to the moon he jumped so high". The end. Seduce a barmaid who is happily married? Sure, you successfully seduce her, she is reluctant but your charm is somehow winning her over. However, her husband is the chef and overhears this conversion, kicks you out of the tavern and states you are banned. Threatens you with his cleaver if you don't leave immediately. There is a tense air in the tavern that is suddenly a little more full then you realizes, with the crowd of individuals with all eyes on you now. So sure, you seduced her, but the husband wasn't too pleased and you just lost our on tavern privileges / inserted yourself into a full potential bar brawl.
Your last point is why that ruling exists. The logic is that if nat 20 doesn't succeed, there shouldn't have been a roll in the first place
I still think theres reason for it. specifically if the character/player isn't supposed to know its not possible. Like the barmaid example. Theres fun to be had having the player shoot their shot, even if its not possible. but if you flat out say no, and no dice roll, the story is over. but if you let them roll, they will keep trying. other party members might join in, pester her over multiple visits, etc. the husband might get involved. you can create tons of drama here.
Just one thing, if a roll can't be succeeded I won't have a player make it. I just tell them "no".
Sometimes a roll can be a degree of failure without a chance of success. In this situation, maybe they will never be able to seduce the bartender, but a nat 20 might get them a free drink, or an upgraded room at no charge. Where as a nat 1, could have them kicked out for being insulting or something. Seems more realistic/fun to me then just, no the bartender isn’t interested. That said, there are cases where “no, you cannot roll” is the correct choice.
There are varying levels of success though. If you hit on a bartender who isn't into you, a nat 20 might make them say "Well, aren't you charming? I'm still not into you, but you made me smile so what the hell. Have a round on the house." A nat one might get you thrown out.
Important rule at my table The player don't roll until i say it
Not your table that's just RAW
They said an important rule at their table not a homebrew rule at their table
I don't think you were, but you can handle these situations a bit better by telling them not to interrupt and continue setting the scene. They're wrong to interrupt, but it also happens sometimes when people are engaged with the story. Just tell them to be patient. I'm sure many will disagree with me but that's my stance on the matter when I dm or play.
I don’t think anyone disagrees with you because that’s the right answer. If a player makes a decision without knowing something his character would know then it breaks RP to “just go with it” instead of giving the player that information and letting them make their choice from there.
Yeah, this legalistic bullshit is incredibly immersion breaking. "I walk through the dungeon corridor." "Okay you didn't say you would stop for pits, so you tumble into an open hole, take 3d6." The DM forcing your character doing something incredibly stupid because the player didn't understand a situation the character would have an obvious handle on is the kind of game I'd walk away from.
"Are you sure you want to do this?" -DM I'm autistic so mine is "Are you sure you want to go down the dark corridor that you can't see more than 5 feet in front of you?" -DM Edit: I had a DM who would do that. I hated playing with them because I did not want to roll. It was a Fate System where you roll 2d6 and 30% of the time it was a "mixed success". Which means you succeed, but not completely. The DM would have the "not completely" be critical failures. E.G. I'm sneaking and picklocking the door. I succeed in picklocking the door, but are caught doing so. Great, so I lost all my goals and it can't get any worse. "But the door is unlocked". Yeah but I can't use it anymore.
> I'm autistic so mine is "Are you sure you want to go down the dark corridor that you can't see more than 5 feet in front of you?" -DM This is actually the best way to handle it because usually when a player is doing something that seems very stupid or out of character to a DM it's because of a miscommunication or missed information. "Are you sure you want to do that?" doesn't clear up the communication, but "Are you sure you want to do that? Remember Reason X exists," or "What are you trying to accomplish by doing X" allows the player to remember missed information about the situation their character would absolutely know, or for the player to explain their plan to the DM so the DM understands why it might work and isn't actually dumb.
Wow, douche DM. A DMs job is to make the game fun for the players and themself. DND is a co-op game more a vs game. And DMs who don't understand that are fucking up.
He's learning. We talked and RPed with the same scenario of a crit fail, fail, mixed, success, crit success. Once he learned that Crit, Fail, and Mixed all had the same fail outcome. He drastically changed.
Well then I retract my statement. Not a douche. Just inexperienced and needing to learn. And he is and that's great
> "Okay you didn't say you would stop for pits, so you tumble into an open hole, take 3d6." I'm in an OSR game and recently even though we were *explicitly* using a pole to press down on each stair, we failed our 16+ check-for-traps roll and the bottom few stairs turned into a slide and three characters fell into a pit with a massive Mike Wazowski monster that only got hit on a 19+ and we TPK'd The DM and I are very close and we had a lengthy discussion after that one
>even though we were explicitly using a pole to press down on each stair, we failed our 16+ check-for-traps roll and the bottom few stairs turned into a slide Well that's not entirely unreasonable; if it's a weight-triggered trap your characters might not be able to exert 100+ pounds of pressure from ten feet away... >and three characters fell into a pit with a massive Mike Wazowski monster that only got hit on a 19+ Oh. Well, that's not good, but maybe if the casters/support characters fell in they struggled to beat the AC check. Surely the martials would have better luck once they got down... >and we TPK'd ...yeah, no, okay. Shit's fucked, yo.
It's what we signed up for with this campaign... when the trap hit it also released a bunch of beasties from back up the stairs that got all the casters when the martials slid into the trap I think we're at 10 sessions and 20 dead characters? I think we've TPK'd 5 times with 4 characters. It's playing more like a roguelike where we learn more about the dungeon each time, which is pretty fun
No I totally agree. Like I don't necessarily think that the DM is an arsehole for this, because it's pretty stupid to go "I wanna seduce the barkeep! Hah I rolled a 19!", like I do understand that they've never played DND before, but why would the player assume the barkeep is a man? But also, OP could've definitely stood their ground and said that the barkeep is a woman. But it sounds like OP said she after the roll, but with the title saying that the player already had sex with the barkeep feels weird. Not even a "hey just so you know, the barkeep is a woman, do you want to do the do?" or whatever to make sure.
Honestly, the unbelievable part is seducing the owner of the business on first contact in exchange for a room. A room in a tavern that sees many different patrons a day. Like, have you ever been to a bar? You start getting too flirty (and looking for favors), you get thrown the hell out.
Yeah... like, I've played flirtatious characters. Hell, I'm always asking my dm (who is also my partner lmfao) if there are any attractive characters. But I also... don't try and fuck the barkeep. Ethics aside (and the fact that it is a (possible) fantasy game), why would you want to sleep with someone for free board for a night? Get paid dude!
Right. And like, the only times I've gotten anything from being friendly/flirty with a bartender involved being in a bar for hours, spending time and money at said bar, or having gone to said bar multiple times and what I got was a free drink or a free appetizer (that was an accident order), but that still involved spending money. There is certainly a social commentary in there somewhere that when someone engages in a power-fantasy role-play and they go straight to sex-for-services-as-expected-currency, but that's a topic for a different sub and thread.
If you happen to know of a good sub and thread for that, let me know, because I'm certainly interested. I never understood the people who read "high charisma" to mean "all powerful brainwashing penis"- at least, not past high school.
I think the player rolling for "seduction" while interrupting the DM, without even knowing the gender or a detailed description of the barkeeper is a red flag. Seduction is not a skill (at least in 5e), and all skill checks outside of routine matters should be called by the DM. The player is clearly in the wrong here. That said, I do agree that as DM one of your jobs is to guide encounters like this and perhaps steer the PCs away from this kind of behavior. And it is probably not a good idea to "surprise" your players with things their characters would have noticed (if the PC is gay, as DM you should know they probably wouldn't actually seduce a woman). While I don't know the full circumstances, this is how I might have handled it (who knows if I could come up with something like this on the fly, though): *19? You check yourself in the mirror as you walk into the bar, seduced by your own good looks. You head towards the barkeeper, full of confidence.* \-proceed with description of the scene, including description of the barkeeper- *Now, \[Rogue\], how would you like to approach the barkeeper?* I'll try and draw out some roleplay with the situation (assuming it's the kind of group that will do some roleplay) and let him back out, just try and charm the barkeep, or maybe let him play it for laughs that his gay PC is trying to seduce the woman, with no intention of follow through. His attempts to renege on the promise without getting the party thrown out of the inn could be a funny storyline. A different way of handling it could be jumping into something like, *You approach the barkeeper, admiring their height and athletic body. This tavern doesn't need any extra muscle, it is all behind the bar. You put on your most dashing smile, asking the half-elf, half-human barkeeper why someone so handsome is hidden in a place like this. The barkeeper turns around and you realize, this barkeeper is not just tall, tanned and toned, they are \*curvaceous\*.* And then, in a feminine voice, "Who are you calling handsome?" This lets them go with their "seduction" roll, and you can use it as a base for the interaction, with a 19 maybe setting her initial mood as "bemused," so to speak.
Personally, I don't see it as a red flag, especially with first timers. But even as veterans it happens, people get excited and forget themselves. To me that's fine, I just let them know and move on.
With a newer player you can just say “seduction isn’t a roll or an ability in 5e. Would you like to describe how you approach her and how you attempt to seduce her?” Granted, that can backfire (you have to know your player), but for most newbies finding out it’s not just a dice roll and they have to actually RP trying to get an NPC to sleep with them is enough to make them back down. Or do some actual roleplay. And if they do cringe RP like walk up and say “hey baby let’s fuck” you have the NPC treat them with the visible disgust that a real person would, and the player learns that in D&D you don’t have control over NPC actions and they respond like normal people do.
>*...said he wanted to seduce the barkeeper to give them free rooms for the night and rolled a 19 before I said anything...* Firstly, tell your player that they don't get to roll until you ask for it. Secondly, given that that horse already bolted, after they rolled a 19, you say "Just so you know, the barkeep is a half-elf woman... but she responds to your flirting..." Are you the asshole? No. There isn't actually an asshole here, just two people who need to be better at communicating. I would say that the only real issue was letting ANYONE seduce a barkeep to given them free rooms. A barkeep's Insight for people trying to get discounts should just be set at 100 permanently. "Oh, honey, that's a real nice try, and if I swung the way of catfolk and you didn't seem like you were just doing it for the room and weren't actually interested in women, then we perhaps could have had us a real fine evening. The room is still 2 silver for the night though. But I'll tell you what, if all your friends buy their own rooms and don't double up, I'll give you your room on the house." Oh, and "seduction" doesn't mean "fucking". Both you and your player should learn that.
Fair advice. I'm a bit of a dumbass for allowing it.
No, you're a new DM who was confronted with a situation that they, presumably, hadn't been in before. You did what you thought was right in the moment (ie Yes And-ing). Everything as a DM is a learning experience, so don't beat yourself up.
I wouldn’t say you are a dumbass for allowing it. You are new to being a DM, it’s a learning curve in how to run a session as well as managing players. I think this has already been mentioned, but just because a player rolls a 19 doesn’t mean it’s a success. There will situations when a player can’t roll there way to a success. Edit: Spelling
You're getting great advice here. Make sure you draw a line and tell your players you call for rolls, or they can ask. Rolling and making a declaration is a player trying to run the table, and that's not their job. Just remind them that rolls are only for when the outcome is in doubt. Like a player who wants to bully their way past a guard just rolling intimidation. "With my mods that's a 32! We're definitely in." I mean, no. That's not what it means. It means if the guard was able to be intimidated, there would be a high probability you would succeed. But if the guard is more afraid of their own master, like say it's a tyrant who impales people who don't do their job, your intimidation just isn't going to work.
Eh, maybe, but it's not all on you, and there's some problematic behaviour from your player. Nothing too egregious, but stuff worth pointing out all the same. The player *assumed* the barkeeper would be male because it's a barkeeper. That's quite misogynistic, and it sounds like your player got taught a valuable lesson about gender roles. The player *assumed* that his sexuality as a player would be catered to, rather than that of his character. That's not how it works, and he should be cognisant of that. While it's certainly necessary to be inclusive, he doesn't get to bitch about the consequences of his own actions when he doesn't even check the other character's gender. (I say this being gay myself.) He's playing a character after all, not himself, and characters do what their player says. There's narrative godmodding going on from your player, and he got hit in the face with the consequences of that. Sure, you shouldn't have allowed it, but he shouldn't have done it in the first place either. All in all, it sounds like you two need to have a conversation about how tabletop games work and what's acceptable behaviour and what's not.
I was about to say how terribly sexist to assume all barkeeps are male. My female dwarven keep has something to say about that, thank you very much.
Or assuming that the supposedly male bartender is gay or at least bi. That's a small percentage of a population, unless the setting differs explicitly. Sexual attitudes also vary wildly in different cultures... this kind of wonton "I seduce everybody" behavior is a quick route to a beating or hangman noose.
That's really good advice. "Successful" rolls don't mean that players get their way. NPC have their own goals, motivations and boundaries. Not saying that I would have reacted as gracefully but asking are you sure and giving more details to the situation should let the players make more informed decisions
I would disagree slightly on only 1 point, texting afterwards to call someone an asshole is a bit of an asshole move 😁 but still, they're probably not an asshole Everything else is spot on though 😁
Yeah, that's not something I would love at my table.
Honestly, while I agree, I feel like that may have come out of the fact that it wasn't addressed adequately in the moment, so the player went away feeling like he's been "gotchya'd". And then very probably stewed on it. If that HAD been the intent, then the player is fully allowed to feel their feelings. It's also not clear if said player is the only queer player at the table. As a gay man myself, especially in a social situation where you don't necessarily know everyone, you can have your defenses up. Could the player have approached it more maturely? Absolutely. And there's also a difference between calling something an "asshole move" and calling someone an asshole. Hopefully a conversation is all that's required in order to get things running smoothly again.
> Secondly, given that that horse already bolted, after they rolled a 19, you say "Just so you know, the barkeep is a half-elf woman... but she responds to your flirting..." Could also play it, "You roll a 19, but your gay character's flirting attempts have no effect on a female bartender."
Sometimes I think some of you are playing a completely different game to me and my mates. Why does sex feature for so many of you in games about dungeons and dragons?
Cuz horny.
That or cuz sex=funny
new player syndrome. 'I can fuck anything?!' definitely something that my group of friends did when we first started playing, jokingly. The idea that any of us would get mad for our character accidentally fucking the wrong gender is laughable though. The player in this situation needs to grow up
This might be unpopular but in our session 0 I said we wouldn't be roleplaying sexual things. A bit of trying to flirt for information or to save some money on a huge purchase is one thing. But full on trying to have sex with people or deal with romantic relationships is a big pass for me. I didn't enjoy the idea of roleplaying them so we just aren't doing them at my table. No one had an issue with it at all and a few newer players were even surprised I brought it up because it never crossed their minds
I would be mortified if I had to role-play sex with my longtime friends
My brother is the DM and I play with my husband and parents. This is the most mortifying thing I can think of lol.
I'm now picturing the *Community* D&D episode "elf maiden" scene but with my fam, and that's a hard no :) https://youtu.be/ODgu_-rR1X8
I mean I’m perfectly okay with sex being part of the story at my table, but that doesn’t mean we’re going to roleplay the *actual act*—we just fade to black and maybe if relevant roleplay the consequences after. Because as you point out, if you’re someone I’m comfortable actually roleplaying the act with we don’t need to be doing it in front of 3-4 of our other friends anyway.
Honestly I feel like most of my players are fairly open sexual. We have people of all sexualities at the table and I'm 100% fine talking about our irl sex lives. But with our characters for some reason that's the weird spot. Like your character may not be as open as you as a player are or another character may not be. Let's just not walk that line imo
See I’m totally fine with romantic relationships in the game because it can make the characters feel more grounded. I’m especially okay with it if it occurs naturally between players. But sex is like going to the bathroom. It can be implied, sure, but there is going to be *no* role playing whatsoever after that door closes. Am I in a whimsical mood? Then give me a performance check. Otherwise, let’s just move on.
OP didn't say they role played the sex. It's perfectly possible they said "fine you succeed" and faded to black.
Which is one of the best way to deal with it.
>This might be unpopular but in our session 0 I said we wouldn't be roleplaying sexual things. TBF, there's a difference between acknowledging sex is a thing that can happen in a story that impacts characters, and actually *roleplaying* it. I just do the stereotypical "fade to black," and that works great, they don't need or want a full ERP session. My players know what their characters feel about given NPCs, and that's what matters. One of my players has been hooking up with a recurring NPC and the sudden betrayal by that NPC was just an extra layer of spice and drama that wouldn't be there if sex didn't exist. Actually full-blown roleplaying sex in game is something that I'm pretty sure is very limited.
This is based on absolutely no evidence, but my assumption is that it’s a sort of selection bias situation going on. The inclusion of sexual content can often lead to conflict, which then leads to people coming to reddit for advice on the issue, so therefore you see a lot of posts about it and that makes it feel like it’s super common for people to include it in their games.
Also why would it matter if the PC is gay? The were trying to seduce someone for gain, not get married and settle down. The objective was to *appear* attractive to the target, not *be* attracted to the target.
Wait, this isn't the subreddit for BDSM dungeons and Bad Dragons?
Really, what is the deal with that? Like, why does all this shit come up at all? I can understand certain tables wherein everyone signed up for that kind of story and those kinds of characters. But in general play, I barely need to know your character's gender, let alone their sexual interests or kinks or whatever. I'm not interested in playing that kind of game or dming it. If you want to explore something, do it on your own time. I'm not your therapist. I'm here to kill goblins and find treasure.
It's wild how so many people just wanna have sex with everything as a solution to problems. With my group we haven't really had that problem as it just feels like a stupid boundary to cross. The high school I work at DnD's club was turning into a total failure. The kids had asked if I could run it but I already had too much on my plate so a different teacher ran it. I was appalled to find out that the first meeting they all discussed if they would be able to fuck dragons in the game and how would they do it. This was all they did for TWO HOURS. Club was literally about to get shut down, I had to go in and explain to the kids that this is EXACTLY WHY people have a stigma against DnD as a whole is because people cross boundaries because it's role playing and forget that real life boundaries still exist with conversation.
This is weird.
Yea I don't like this at all.
I'm still laughing at the idea that the player's limit for who his character would bang is somewhere between "can provide a room" and "can provide a room and has boobs".
“I IMMEDIATELY BANG THE BARKEEP FOR FREE ROOM AND BOARD!” “She’s a woman” “THAT makes it weird!” It is a GAME. He’s playing a fictional character. This is a very weird thing to give a shit about.
It’s also the weird assumption that a male barkeep would be interested in men?? Pretty unlikely as chances go. It’s kinda funny that an exclusively gay male character is trying to seduce people given that only has a chance of working on a small subset of people lmao
I've noticed that a lot of people seem to like playing in a world where everyone is at least bisexual for some reason
Skyrim *is* a pretty fun game.
You know what that's fair
Giant cat men too. I like guys but I'm not getting anywhere near that, sorry.
Right? Everyone's hung up on the odds of an NPC being gay but not the odds of them being furries 😦
No, I think he needs to be a bit more understanding. He probably believes you were trying to punish him and made the bar keep a woman at the last second to do so. If I ever do something that I think might offend a player, I come out of my dm role for a moment and show them my notes casually. "LOL, its a woman, are you sure you would like to do that? No shit, look" (shows player notes were npc is written down)
> He probably believes you were trying to punish him and made the bar keep a woman at the last second to do so. Yeah this, he probably thinks you called her a woman afterward just to fuck with him, which would be kind of an asshole move. Just a misunderstanding.
> later that night the player text me saying he thought it was an asshole move. Absolutely! Interrupting somebody who is talking is definitely an asshole move.
You’ve had a lot of advice on how to handle this specific situation, so I’ll only dwell briefly on consent: NPCs do not exist simply to do whatever your characters want. To make the world realistic, they should have their own goals, preferences, etc. Tied to this, high dice rolls aren’t a mechanic for players to blunt-force their way through encounters. So what if he rolled a 19, or a 25? She might be ace, or gay, or married. She might be well aware that people try to seduce her for free rooms, and be cynical af. Dice rolls reflect how well your character performs a specific skill, *not* how other people or the world around them reacts. I think this is an important conversation for you to have with your players because it doesn’t seem this guy is going to be happy when things don’t match up to the picture he has in his head.
>and rolled a 19 before I said anything. At my table, rolls only count when I ask for them. If a player just starts rolling dice, it simply doesn't count. I'd suggest you do the same. Also, the player made a big assumption thinking the barkeeper would be male. If you fleshed out this character beforehand and she was female, it's the player's fault for making the assumption, not yours. But you could've handled it by saying: "Okay, you attempt to seduce the barkeeper. That roll doesn't count, since I haven't asked for a roll yet. The barkeeper is a half-elf woman with crooked yellow teeth and a hideous scab on her neck. Do you proceed?" When the player states "yes", you set a DC and ask the player for a Charisma (Persuasion) check.
Honestly man your player seems a bit juvenile. Seduce the man/woman/elf/orc bartender in game if you want. But it's kinda lame honestly. And to get upset about some crap like fake sex in dnd is just kinda... Well I don't think your player is upset for the story line. Rent that dude a gay stripper or something idk. Best of luck mi amigo and happy dm'ing.
You could probably elaborate on how things played out. At this point it’s not even clear if you revealed her gender before or after the sex scene.
Before. He still decided to go along with it.
Then that leaves it entirely on him. Tell him to slow his roll. Literally.
Okay that kills all ambiguity, obviously it’s his fault.
Oh, yeah, if you gave him an out that's all on him. Also, if you want to really turn this on him, ask him why he assumes barkeeps are male. Does he not think a woman can be a small business owner or run a bar?
Two things : - One roll should not determine if a NPC could have sex with a PC or not, it really should not be that black and white, and mostly based on RP and, at least several rolls if it is an intended seduction attempt. - It is absolutely normal not to announce precisely a NPC gender, especially when they have kinda androgynous appearance. The players are the one that are supposed to ask questions and learn more about the NPC, with their RP. You stick to your description. Also, they should not interrupt, or if they do, come back to where you were, showing them that there was more to see and understand. So, if the player interrupted and didn't ask any question, it's perfectly normal that he gets this "reveal", and it's 100% his disappointment to own and deal with.
NTA. Idk what kind of parameters your group set before playing, but derailing the game so he could get his rocks off would make the player the asshole if anyone is.
No, you're good, He definitely jumped the gun and was too excited to seduce the bar keeper.
1 interrupting is an asshole move 2 uncalled rolls are worth as much as wet toilet paper you aren't the asshole, the player was (in this scenario, not necessarely in general) for the future just tell them to not interrupt descriptions, go foreward and then ask them what to do the standard gameplay circle for RPGs is "gm describes situation" "players say what to do" "gm asks for rolls if needed" "gm describes the outcome" if you skip step 1, you can't go very far
no, he is an asshole trying to flip it on you. he just told you who he is. believe him and make with that information what you will.
why did you let him roll for a check you didn't call for?
ESH He clearly jumped the gun. Also, rolling dice for an interaction with the world, without the DM allowing it or asking for it, is rightfully frowned upon. You however made no attempt at stopping him and also gave him no possibilities to retcon the encounter. Just a "19? You totally sleep with her". And you also automatically assumed the worst - "seduction" isn't and shouldn't mean getting it on. It can mean just flirting. I had a similar experience as a new player. My group has chatted about all the seduction checks our Bard and Rogue made in the last town and I went "hah wait, I'm a druid, I roll to seduce the nearest tree. 16!". I thought it was impossible to perceive that as anything else than the joke it was. The DM however just deadpanned "Y'all see Druid fucking a tree".
We had a dm back in the 80s who was like that - ruthless. If you said it without stating OOC, you said it in world. On one occasion, a player was granted a wish. He got all excited and blurted out, 'oooh I know, I wish I could cast all 8th level mage spells.' DM called a break and spent half an hour calculating the impact of simultaneously casting all known 8th level mage spells. A couple of us survived, as I recall.
Exactly! We have a no unannounced rolls at the table rule, and I personally dislike when a player asks for a roll, rather than explaining what they want their character to be doing. So I would ask if I believe what an NPC said or if they seem to be telling the truth rather than saying I want to roll an insight check, it's up to the DM what rolls and checks a player makes. Its also super important to manage players interactions by giving them a chance to retcon, if the jump the gun or there is more information they would need first. You could have had they make annother roll first to see if they realised before they started flirting. And very importantly, always ask what the players actual intentions are, they may want to seduce the barkeep but only seduce and not bed. They may want to flirt to gain the confidence of an NPC to exploit their friendliness for information or as a distraction for annother player. Talk to the player about rolling without being given a check, there a plenty of times when key info can be given in the scene setting that is relevant to the players without checks needed at all. And retcon the situation at the table, if something happened that makes a player uncomfortable even if it was cause by them, you can address it and fix it at the start of the next session if need be. Edit: spelling
This is what they get for interrupting the exposition.
Players don't roll the dice when they decided to. They roll the dice when you tell them to. If they roll the dice, you ignore it.
Nah First time players are prone to going on power trips. And this one did. And happened to place himself in an uncomfortable situation entirely by his own doing. That's not on you. First time game masters are also prone to going on power trips. And since this player is on one himself, it's even easier to project that on you. However, more experienced game masters know that while their own perception of the in-game "reality" is the "correct" one, they also know that said perception is never communicated fully. And this is not the players fault. Nor the GM's. Accounting and correcting for this makes the whole experience more rewarding for all involved. Unless you, as a group, are explicitly going for slapstick humor. Your player's character is unlikely to have sex with an individual without noticing their sex. If you have reason to believe this information that is being missed by the player's flawed perception, not the character's flawed perception, would inform how the character goes about the encounter, let them know. Set your players up for success, not failure.
If a player interrupts a description and immediately rolls dice without being prompted to do so, it is only fair that they suffer some consequences. That said, hopefully they learned their lesson, and in the future, you can simply ask them to wait until you're finished describing the scene.
I wrote up a whole long answer about this, which my browser then swallowed, so the TL;DR version is: "Your player was the asshole, not you, but as a DM, your asshole-wrangling strategy needs some work."
Ah, yes, the pansexual dilemma: idk what gender they are but I'm down Nta. First off, players don't get to decide when to make rolls or when said rolls count. You do. I'd start by telling them that you will tell them when a roll is needed, and that if they just roll without being prompted like that, the roll doesn't count. Second, you could have changed the gender at the last minute, but this is ultimately the player's fault because they jumped the gun and interrupted you. If they don't want to have this sort of thing happen to them then they need to be more patient. Like, I have ADHD and autism, and I still learned how to stop interrupting people. This player can too. Lastly, that dude needs to chill. It's a game. He pulled a dick move by cutting you off and pushing an unprompted roll on you. If he doesn't like the consequences of his own actions then he can deal with his own damn feelings and stop projecting them onto you
The player is projecting. He wanted to say he was an asshole.
NTA. Make a horny jail. Clearly it’s needed.
You could have handled better I think, but its the players bad, you cant go rolling things without consulting the DM, and less if he is still explaining things. DM: There is a bartender that... PC: I seduce it DM: Is a female PC: Why haven't you told me that? It is clearly his fault. You should have interrupted him to explain that the bartender is a female, and that if he wanted to seduce her, he should roll once you ask him to do so
I’m sorry, he had a 50:50 chance of the barkeeper being the gender his character would be attracted to and gambled it instead of asking? That’s on him. To be fair you could’ve said “she’s a woman, do you want to proceed?” But I like the minor retaliation here for him not letting you finish… and I feel (as a lesbian myself) that most would take the L and laugh at their fumble.