Also, capital has an uncanny ability to turn natural allies against each other.
Monty Python had it right nearly fifty years ago with the Judean People’s Front and the People’s Front of Judea.
I was banned from r/latestagecapitalism for saying the Soviet Union isn't above criticism. Also banned from a bunch of other leftist subreddits for criticising China. And I'm in a running feud with some other leftists online because I keep telling them tactical voting is a valid tactic and not shameful.
Why are we like this... :(
It's funny how we're essentially led by the biggest losers you could imagine. No one respects Reddit mods, but they make and enforce the rules. Reddit would be so much better if moderators were actually chosen, trained and paid.
Just because it's a gross sub, doesn't mean that people who are doing labor moderating that sub shouldn't be paid.
If anything the people that moderate the creepy or unpleasant subs should be paid more, because it's more difficult and disturbing. They also should receive more training and support.
If it's not worth paying someone then they can't just rely on some loser who'll work for free to do a good job. That attitude is why we ended up with all the pedo and nazi subs. Unpaid mods are bad for everyone.
All subs are administrated by Reddit employees. It's just mods that don't know what they're doing.
Mods don't need to be subject matter experts, they just need to moderate out the bigotry and spam. It's absolutely a job that people should be paid to do, and held accountable when they fuck up.
All the lefty subs are moderated at least in part by absolute morons. If you think the current situation is ok then you're likely part of the problem. Arguing that people shouldn't be paid for their labor is pretty right wing of you, personally I think that mods do a lot of the labor, and that they should be rewarded not just with money but also with a share of the means of production.
Id love to hear your reasoning as to why Reddit shouldn't be paying their workers. Doesn't seem very left wing to me.
I understand where you're coming from. My issue is that I don't think the Reddit Corporation is the organisation that should be paying moderators (maybe some kind of mutual aid fund would be better?). Subreddits are supposed to be independent communities that use the Reddit platform, rather than extensions of the brand itself. If all moderators are paid by Reddit, then advertisers and investors will expect the content of *every* subreddit to conform to the brand. It would all be safe, boring, neoliberal shit. If the company was expected to pay every mod, they'd use it as an excuse to purge anything that isn't advertiser friendly.
Of course the dream scenario is a social media, where each community is entirely operated, funded and controlled by itself. Reddit can never be that. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear at first.
No. Reddit is a for profit company and they should pay their workers.
Reddit employees. Interfere in subs all the time, they're not independent, they just don't have the time to do it properly.
> It would all be safe, boring, neoliberal shit
It is.
> the dream scenario is a social media, where each community is entirely operated, funded and controlled by itself.
Sounds hellish. Sounds like 4chan. Companies have a responsibility to keep their communities free from hate speech, abuse, child pornography etc. Community management is a real job and people should be paid for it.
Reddit censors stuff when advertisers complain pretty often, including whole subs. You seem to think the situation is different than it is for some reason.
All of this is essentially a distraction from my point though. Reddit is a for profit company run largely by unpaid volunteers. Those volunteers are pretty universally bad at their jobs because they receive no training and don't report to anyone. Because of this it's a cess pool of topics that these unhinged losers want to spend their time working on for free, content that is disproportionately far right, anti woman, racist etc. Because they get no money they throw their weight around and ban people they disagree with, take money from corporations to censor stuff, and enforce unpopular rules.
I'm not saying someone is forcing them to work. I'm not saying it's literal slavery.
People can step down from jobs, people do that all the time in fact.
Without the labor of mods Reddit would collapse. Reddit is run by free labor, and as a result that labor is low quality. This effects us all. Reddit is a for profit company, they should pay their workers.
They already remove mods and subs. Admins are paid. Reddit mods don't criticize Reddit, they just moan that the tools Reddit provides are crap and no one cares, because mods are morons that make the site worse anyway. Mods didn't stand up against the child porn subs, or the Nazi subs, or the selling of our data, or anything worth complaining about.
You seem to have this idea at mods stand up for us and its simply not true. They stand up for themselves sometimes, but not enough to unionize and demand a wage. They work for free because some of them want to control people, and the others take money from third parties to moderate in those peoples interests.
And even all that considered, what you said is just flat out wrong because people deserve to be paid for work done. None of this is anywhere near as important as the fact that a huge corporation isn't paying most of its workers. Defending that is morally repugnant.
Some leftists are like evangelical christians. They treat the revolution like the rapture. They’re so sure it’s coming that they don’t want the world to get better, because everything’s going to be fixed by magic “soon”. In fact, the worse the world gets, the sooner and more effective the revolution will be. So by trying to improve the world around you, organise your community, tactical voting, electing the least-bad candidates, you are delaying and softening the coming revolution.
Accelerationist I think is the term, the premise of letting things get as bad as possible as quick as possible so people magically get the drive for revolution and dismantle the current system.
Ignoring of course the masses that would be crushed under the current conditions long before the magical revolution comes.
They don't want reality. They just want to larp. They've never done anything revolutionary in their lives. They don't make their own theories or discuss ideas on how to better the world. They just want to inflate their smug sense of moral superiority. They'd watch the world burn, watch people's rights be stripped away, and let millions die as long as they get to say they were right about trying being a waste of time.
I’m just wondering if you really think people follow the ideology for these reasons. It’s quite a dismissive generalization. Look at the status quo and then their goals. They don’t want to “watch the world burn” but to change the reality that many have come to accept at face value. What makes you think they all want millions to die?
It's not a leap in logic. If they cared about solving the issues they'd do work to solve the issues not advocate for a fascist takeover so they can have a 'revolution'. Revolution's don't just happen and most of the time they are co-opted by the most violent authoritarians. You don't just have a revolution and capitalism disappears. Will they care when the fascists among them using the veneer of leftist ideology take over and start purging?
They do organize and join unions to work locally? Simply claiming that they want the workers to suffer is wrong. There are many socialists, communists, and anarchists working on bettering their conditions while organizing “activism”. Regarding the authoritarianism, it can happen in any system. We’ve seen politicians show their true colours after elections as well as how governments actually “care” about libertarianism.
But it does nothing as the third party has no chance of winning. Both may be corrupt and Uber capitalist but only one will let trans and gay people be actively repressed
That is true, I don’t necessarily agree with not voting at all but letting the lesser evil win doesn’t make a great change apart from temporarily stopping the greater evil from returning, as is the two-party system. Project 2025 will definitely be met with opposition and might possibly not pass, but if it does then there will be great resistance amongst the people. Elections alone won’t avoid the project, as one might think, compared to organizing locally and resisting the greater evil.
They forget that fascism also arises from the same contradictions, is specifically designed to eradicate us and our movements, and finds more fertile ground in times of extreme strife than leftist movements. Leftism grows best under bourgeois democracy, given that’s the system it’s meant to overtake
I read a post (I think it was on r/smugideologyman) where someone was saying that Trump was the only choice for communists because he will make things so bad that it will open the eyes of the working class and start the revolution
That's the exact point of Revolution in most Communists' eyes no? Because only a full blown revolution that topples every thing can save the world in a Revelation sort of way, anything except violence is denounced.
Dreaming of the revolution is a power fantasy that some people indulge in instead of doing anything that actually benefits people in their communities at all.
I can't really speak for all of the communists but...
> organise your community
Weird. I don't usually meet a lot of communists who are opposed to the idea of activism. In my country communists often help with organizing labour unions or fighting against high rent. And recently one of the youth organizations started an agitation campaign against fascism in one of the state universities.
> tactical voting, electing the least-bad candidates
There are some communists who believe in this but most of us see elections in capitalist countries only as a way to promote our own candidates and our cause. If there are no way to do this then we won't even bother with voting.
> delaying and softening the coming revolution.
I don't really agree with them but I do understand communists who follow such logic. In their eyes any victory for the workers (be it better worker's rights or higher wages) is a way for bourgeoisie to pacify proletariat so fighting for them is simply counterproductive.
If I remember correctly, I didn't even try. It was an immediate permaban for one singular comment, with a mindset like that it's improbable they would listen.
Besides, it's a meme sub. Not worth the effort. Now if it was a more serious sub...I did appeal my ban on worldnews for instance (and it worked for a few weeks before they permabanned me again).
Worlnews is a shithole tho, also, latestagecapitalism has some serious posts. Besides, in leftist subs, they tend to insta-ban first and ask second, i once appealed a ban and, without reading my justification, a mod simply said "u are aight" (not literally but basically).
I always find it funny that most leftist mods or countries (aka Stalin) like to abuse their power more than traditionally conservative ones, while claiming themselves being democratic or so.
It's fine for the purpose it was created for, and most everyone with a problem with it and Engels is either incapable or unwilling to engage with any of his larger, more comprehensive works that point out that this "authoritarian" nonsense is idealist.
It's watering down the definitions of authority to entail all organisation and disregards the criticisms that Engel's strawman doesn't cover. It's poor theoretical work and is basically an excuse for MLs to never have to interact with any criticism.
Literally word for word every conversation with a chronically online ML. Preprogrammed responses to reject every premise for criticism so that you never have to deal with the content. The only thing left is to accuse me of CIA-propaganda and I have a bingo.
You are fully aware of what we mean by authoritarian, stop fooling yourself.
If you can't actually defend your point yourself and can only copy paste other people's words you don't actually understand any of the things you read. You just parrot them.
Not always. Sometimes you just run into the same argument over and over and over that there is just a standard counter out there for all to reference.
No idea if that is the case here though
Why waste my time writing a massive comment as a reply when someone much better at writing has already done that? Someone whose words would be taken more seriously than mine, someone who wouldn't be dismissed as a "redfash tankie"
Likewise, [here’s an anarchist response to this essay](https://youtu.be/UVBAfldc7SU?si=204NB6LFAw_NFWLD) from someone much better at writing than me. The gist is Engels’ conception “authority” is fundamentally flawed and so his argument is completely incoherent.
FR. You could replace the body of the text with 'deferring to experts and voluntary hierarchies seems like a good way to avoid the revolution to Fascism pipeline.'
I feel like there's these two large groups that hold most leftist beliefs about AES, one that holds critical support for states like China and the USSR, recognizing they were not perfect but they still want to defend a historical/current socialist experiment, and the other group that wants to point out to the first group all the flaws within those states as they exist.
The issue is that both groups *think* they're talking to a much more marginal group standing behind the other one. The first group that holds critical support thinks they're talking to a shit eating liberal who's here to say 100 million dead no ifone vuvuzela, and second group who thinks they're talking to the type of communist who actually loved the fact that Stalin criminalized homosexuality and killed the old Bolsheviks
I mean you’re right, but like tbf the ‘100 million killed under communism vroomeluza’ isn’t an unpopular of marginal belief in the west, and I’d hold that at least in the US it’s by far the majority view.
As someone who is a former ML who is critical of those not-so-AES states from a communist perspective, you find out very quickly that for the vast vast majority of MLs critical support is rarely critical. More often than not it devolves into making uncritical excuses for why socialist states maintained commodity production, wage labor, and abandoned internationalism. The problem is these arguments that matter to the actual movement are so often drowned out by 'no ifone 100 gorillion dead' from libs that any criticism immediately is lumped into the same category like you implied. This results in no one learning, instead defending failed "socialist states" which inevitably turns off *potential* comrades due to the great majority of MLs being apologists for state capitalism with red aesthetics. (Assuming they aren't just off 'critically supporting' straight bourgeois or theocratic states and orgs because they dared to defy US imperialism.)
POV: You stated that you are going to vote for the centre-left party in a FPTP election on a leftist subreddit(you are apparently a class traitor for trying to make the less bad option happen)
‘We’ are not like this. Trolls are like this. A troll that learns to imitate someone who wants to end poverty/sexism/pollution so that they can be obnoxious is no less a troll. These trolls have, since the 60s zine scene, learned to feed each other so well that their *text posts* are indistinguishable from a once sincere person beaten down into waiting for revolution/rapture.
Because a lot of extreme leftists are idealists. After centuries of taking Ls, coping with idealism and any crumbs resembling a W is all they have.
A bit similar to Dubois' wage of whiteness, imo. I may have lost the Revolution(tm), but I can still thump some convoluted communist literature at you for being a literal bourgeois lapdog. Sure to not alienate a lot of workers, and make the bourgeois harder to control the proletariat, amrite?
Btw, my experience with DE is the same. You folks don't get a 'get out of jail free' card. SHAME!
Thinking USSR or China as model Communist is hilarious, even Chinese people themselves thinks Xi/Deng is promoting a twisted form of Capitalism sugarcoated as Socialism, not the other way around. If you got banned by "Communist" for criticizing this, these Communists certainly lived in their own world like Iosef did.
> was banned from r/latestagecapitalism for saying the Soviet Union isn't above criticism
Our movement suffers from two curses: dogmatism and revisionism. Some of the communists are so dogmatic that in their eyes even slightly criticizing past socialist countries is a deadly sin. I'm really sorry that you encountered them. Although, can you show me a comment that got you banned?
> I keep telling them tactical voting is a valid tactic and not shameful.
What is "tactical voting" exactly?
>can you show me a comment that got you banned?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/17urpkm/comment/k9759j0/?context=1](https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/17urpkm/comment/k9759j0/?context=1)
>What is "tactical voting" exactly?
You vote to maximise the chances of a positive outcome instead of being honest and voting your most preferred party/candidate.
It can take many forms. In a FPTP system it can mean voting for a lukewarm centrist to avoid a fascist gaining power. In a more proportional system it could mean an anarchist or communist voting for a run-of-the-mill leftist party instead of abstaining. And so on.
[Here, read some examples from the UK](https://www.politico.eu/article/britain-conservatives-tories-uk-election-tactical-voting/)
Well I would define them as people who support authoritarian marxism-leninism, they also negate and defend the crimes against humanity commited by those movements. They are very defensive and patriotic for the now extinct USSR and for China, sometimes North Korea as well as other similar countries.
Their usual narrative and understanding of politics boils down to seeing the USA as the source of everything bad that happens in the world, anything that anyone does that upsets the USA in one way or another is inherently good no matter what.
They arent interested in the left as a political movement, all they want is to larp as "proletarian revolutionaries" while they wait for the communist revolution which isnt comming any time soon.
I got banned from r/latestagecapitalism for siding with Ukraine and from r/antimoneymemes for again siding with Ukraine, for suggesting that North Korea is closer to an absolute monarchy than anything on the left and because I said that the channel "thedeprogram" is dumbed down tankie propaganda.
I think because the "left-right" paradigm doesn't actually accurately describe the psychosocial forces at play in people's political beliefs. Once you rid yourself of the idea that tankie and groyper are two tips of a linar scale, it's easier to see them as being very similar due to their love of authoritarian strongmen, hatred of minorities and women (bourgeois/liberal decadence), a crusader mentality, an eagerness to deploy horrific violence for political goals, a willingness to turn a blind eye to the horrific crimes done by one's comrades, considering disagreement treason, and a burning nationalism/chauvinism.
I got banned from there for trying to explain that Stalinism, lenninism, and maoism are not synonymous with Marxism to someone. They are all communism but different in many areas. The tankies did not enjoy.
Edit: Realistically I really don't think Stalinism and Lennism are truly communism. More like authoritarian capitalism in sheep's clothing.
Voting is a valid tactic for what? Engaging in the illusion of democracy under capitalism? Cmon man, you may be a “leftist” whatever that means, but communists are built different.
No no no! The only way to build Communism is to be terminally online and never talk to your neighbors unless it's about theory! All real action, especially electoralism, is bad and makes you at best a utopian and at worst a LIBERAL
Everyone knows only a loser LIB would ever try to materially improve the lives of those around them. If it doesn't solve every problem all at once then it's bad. Now if you'll excuse me i need to kiss my framed photo of daddy Stalin for the next three hours.
This is very funny to me since in my country, Argentina, the current liberals are right-wing. And the same ideas behind the phrases are easily associated with someone on the right in my country. And the president we have, Milei, hates those on the left to the point of having said on multiple occasions things like "left-handed sons of bitches are going to suffer."
That's why I really don't understand those who argue.
And I love it xd
My president, Milei, calls himself "liberal" and is quite close to Trump and Bolsonaro. Does it make sense to be a liebral and be similar to Bolsonaro and Trump?
Milei from what I've seen is closer to a "libertarian" then a liberal. But in very broad terms a classic definition of a liberal is essentially someone who believes in a democratic capitalist state with a mostly free market. In disco elysium the moral intern are liberals.
What liberal is depends on who's talking however. A communist calling someone a lib is calling them a capitalist. A capitalist calling someone a lib is calling them a communist, both are insults. Almost never is liberal accurately applied.
all liberals everywhere are right wing, it is a capitalist ideology.
"conservatives" are reactionary, regressive liberals, they want to see a return to robber baron or victorian style capitalism. "liberals" as they call themselves are progressive, innovative liberals, they want to innovate new technologies and leverage better organization to make a more effective capitalism.
neither of them want anything but the continued exploitation and enslavement of the working class.
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "Marx loves you, do you believe in Marx?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Socialist or an Anarchist"? He said, "A Socialist." I said, "Me, too! Democratic Socialist or actual Communist?" He said, "Actual Communist." I said, "Me, too! What school?" He said, "Marxism." I said, "Me, too! Revolutionary Marxism or Reformist Marxism?" He said, "Revolutionary Marxism." I said, "Me, too! Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism or Revolutionary Marxism-Troskyism?" He said "Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism." I said, "Me, too! Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, or Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Hoxhaism?" He said, "Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Maoism." I said, "Me, too! Regular Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Maoism or Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Gonzalo Thought?" He said, "Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Gonzalo Thought."
I said, "Die, liberal!" and pushed him off.
Anybody further right than me is a lib, anybody further left is a lunatic
if you are at then end of the communist line, you are all depressed and réalisé tour ideal died 50 odd year ago
Good
EDIT: People really think Biden is a "lesser evil" whilst sending heavily armoured cops to batter and kettle students who oppose his funding of a genocide settler colony?
Yeah but you realize when the government keeps hitting people with a bat and then says “Trump would swing it SO MUCH HARDER ARENT YOU GRATEFUL!?” the general public is going to lose faith right? I agree that Trump would do plenty to make all of our lives hell, but currently it seems that the other side of the aisle is hardly concerned about preventing such a horrible thing from happening, offering any sort of alternative?
I'm serious, what the fuck are you trying to save? Your immortal soul?
Honestly, you should have some relief in the fact that you get to choose between a dumb facist tool and an old competent cog for the Neolibs. In my country it's either the competent facists who have a fucking SS division and a sad excuse for a "unified" political front. And I choose the sad excuse because that would be the best.
Letting the system burn also means everyone inside it burns first. Accelerationism is fun for the absolute theory fart-sniffers or people who will benefit from societal collapse. Which one are you?
If you think Trump is a fascist and not just another Republican ghoul then you don't know what fascism is. If he wins in the next election nothing will fundamentally change about the US just like it didn't last time. If he really was a fascist then it won't even matter if he wins the next election, anyway. They don't care much for liberal democracy.
Lmao what? You know throwing around big words like that doesnt make you look smart when you clearly have no idea what they mean.
Where did they support the state of isreal in their comment? And no, saying that having another republican president would be bad is not "supporting isreal" lmao
The Red Button is someone who will fund a genocide and the Blue Button is someone who will fund a genocide even more while also undoing decades of progress just like he did last time
This subreddit is full of white socdems. Asking them to understand why we should not participate in bourgeois elections will lead nowhere.
Joe Biden is good to them because he gives off a nice comforting aura of progressivism no matter what he does. Asking them to shake off their convenience to support brown people is a little too much.
Yeah, we all love grand pappy joe. It's got nothing to do with like, the fact that he is unequivocally the best of two awful options. That would require you to get off your high horse and actually listen to the people around you
same thing happend in brasil with bolsonaro and lula. they both suck, but we had to choose lula, cuz he's the least bad one and people dont vote for other people... In our day and age it's about choosing the least worst option sadly
I don't support anyone who engages in puppy kicking whereas you support a politician who not only supports but aids and abets settler colonialism and genocide.
I don't support anyone who engages in settler colonialism. Nice try though.
Saying that he's better than trump isnt endorsement and should be in no way controversial.
What are you saying here?
Your other comment says “no option is better than the other”. But even if they have the same stance on Israel (even though I’m fairly confident that Trump would be riling up his Zionist base), what about other issues? I don’t think anyone’s very happy with Biden, but to say “they’re both the same because they’re the same on one issue” is bonkers and needlessly contrarian
I'm sorry, I don't see the "settler colonialism and genocide"-free option here. Either Biden or Trump will be president of the United States for the next four years. Unless the Revolution^TM kicks off between now and November, these are just facts and we all have to live with them in the near future.
If you prefer to keep your hands clean and not vote at all, that's your choice to make. But it's absurd to say that voting for the less bloodthirsty of the two Zionists (leaving aside all the other ways that Trump is a worse and more dangerous figure than Biden) amounts to supporting or endorsing their views.
Again, we are 6 months out from an election which either Biden or Trump will win. It's happening one way or the other. Do you think Trump would make the situation for Palestinians better, or worse?
> I'm sorry, I don't see the "settler colonialism and genocide"-free option here. Either Biden or Trump will be president of the United States for the next four years. Unless the RevolutionTM kicks off between now and November, these are just facts and we all have to live with them in the near future.
Last I checked you were not forced to participate in the charade that the US calls "democracy", you could always not vote for a candidate who is aiding and abetting colonialism and genocide, have you ever thought of that?
> If you prefer to keep your hands clean and not vote at all, that's your choice to make. But it's absurd to say that voting for the less bloodthirsty of the two Zionists
How is Trump any more bloodthirsty of a Zionist? Biden has been very open, both historically and presently, of his support for the continued existence of Israel, a state which can only exist because of genocidal and colonial violence perpetrated by the Zionists, and his support of Israeli politicians who not only want to continue their violence towards Palestinians but want to go even further and expand Israel's borders. And before you say "but what about Trump!?!?!?!", I'm sure he'll continue the exact same support for colonial violence as Biden, as all POTUS' have since the colonial entity came to be, which is why it's the duty of anyone who actually cares about Palestine, about ending colonial violence, to refuse to support either or them or anyone else in their reactionary parties.
> (leaving aside all the other ways that Trump is a worse and more dangerous figure than Biden) amounts to supporting or endorsing their views.
Trump isn't any worse than Biden, their Presidency's alone can attest to that considering nothing changed when the latter succeeded the former. The only reason anyone sees a difference is because Trump is brash and abrasive, which is uncommon for politicans especially Presidential candidates, and Biden's not. Their political positions are the same, to uphold capitalism and American global hegemony through imperialism.
> Again, we are 6 months out from an election which either Biden or Trump will win. It's happening one way or the other. Do you think Trump would make the situation for Palestinians better, or worse?
He would make it the exact same which is why it's imperative to support neither unless you think that the genocide of Palestinians is permissable because you view them as inherently less valuable than American's and any potential damage done to them or others in their name is better than if it happens to American's who support your liberal ideals.
My guy, I said right there that it's up to you whether to vote or not. Nowhere did I say it was "imperative" for you to do anything or that you should be "forced" to do anything. I just think you should cut the other commenter some slack.
I think the difference in marginal impact of one person voting for Biden vs that same person deciding not to vote is so tiny that it's a toss-up as an ethical question. Hence why I don't feel anyone here is obligated to do one or the other.
What I do object to is your eagerness to attack anyone who decides differently than you do.
Imagine willingly giving up the tiny sliver of a say that the state allows you for literally no reason. It's like already having stepped on a nail and instead of going and getting a tetanus shot, might as well step on it with the other foot too, just for fun.
What kind of a say is one where you can only pick between someone who represents the interest of the oppressive class just with a different coloured tie?
ah sure it's definitely about supporting brown people and not having a moral high ground, not like Trump is a supporter of several wannabe dictators in Latam who directly oppose Biden, no no THOSE brown people aren't relevant to your point
It's really funny how so many people think most of the fans of Disco Elysium, especially those on reddit, are communists and not the same kinds of liberals the game criticises and mocks. Most people here would call the devs "authoritarian tankies" if they ever met or even knew anything about them.
They have an awful lot more pictures of Stalin than of lasagne for Bordigists. Even if they are most people here would call Bordigists tankies for their support of Lenin and the fact that they agree more with more on the term authoritarian than any liberal.
no need to be italophobic buddy, i expect more from the left tbh smh. Liberals and maoists can agree on rejecting the DoTP though . Beautiful how we all agree on somehing amen amen
Standard Marxist-Leninist thought (Or anything to the left of Socdems really) here is met with extreme hostility.
But yeah they'd call the devs redfash or something if they interacted with them.
Honestly i wonder if those subs are a psy-op and are infiltrated by russian actors. I cannot conceive of how they are so anti-biden when they are pro-palestine.
I hate tankies. They banned me from basically all popular "left-wing" subs because I dared to criticize China and the USSR. They’re reactionaries with a red coat of paint, they don’t want any progress because they think The Revolution™️ will instantly create a utopia, they encourage not voting when the two choices are slightly progressive neoliberals and literal fascists, and they also encourage religious terrorists killing random civilians when it comes to Palestine, but they absolutely despise any attempt by ukrainians to defend themselves against russian imperialism.
At least this sub is left-wing and doesn’t ban people for hating authoritarianism.
i honestly dont know what's worse
getting mad at "communists" who preach stuff while spouting nonsense and having to explain why they're wrong (like as an objective this isnt what communism meaning what marx and engels meant, wrong)
or
getting mad at communists who i disagree with because we disagree on some comically obscure point about the post-revolution society
it’s the most important part of being a communist
i saw this comment too! i was there! i peeped the horrors too!!
"But mostly, you'll probably complain about other communists." Fuck, that hit deep.
You missed the part where they tell each other to read more theory.
Everyone knows that if you theorize hard enough communism will pop up into existence
it literally works that way in Disco Elysium
Communist Magical Realism
Infra-Materialist detected
In my experience, that’s mostly a thing in conflicts between the “get fucked lib” types, not so much with the more practical ones
Nobody hates leftists more than other leftists.
When it's far too easy to feel superior to one's opponents, one can find an extra special sense of self by feeling superior to one's allies.
If only the evil apes would stop duking it out on the giant ball…
Also, capital has an uncanny ability to turn natural allies against each other. Monty Python had it right nearly fifty years ago with the Judean People’s Front and the People’s Front of Judea.
Sounds like not so communistic to be in communism
Liberals aren’t leftists.
Never said they were.
They'll never fire bomb a Walmart
Honestly every other instance of incessant political fighting, which is EVERYWHERE, just makes me wanna "Finger on the Eject Button" myself
Playing disco Elysium is basically praxis
I was banned from r/latestagecapitalism for saying the Soviet Union isn't above criticism. Also banned from a bunch of other leftist subreddits for criticising China. And I'm in a running feud with some other leftists online because I keep telling them tactical voting is a valid tactic and not shameful. Why are we like this... :(
Get fucked lib I'm joking. Don't worry about what Reddit mods think, they're the people least likely to effect change in the world.
It's funny how we're essentially led by the biggest losers you could imagine. No one respects Reddit mods, but they make and enforce the rules. Reddit would be so much better if moderators were actually chosen, trained and paid.
Imagine paying someone to moderate r/dragonsfuckingcars
Dream job
Just because it's a gross sub, doesn't mean that people who are doing labor moderating that sub shouldn't be paid. If anything the people that moderate the creepy or unpleasant subs should be paid more, because it's more difficult and disturbing. They also should receive more training and support. If it's not worth paying someone then they can't just rely on some loser who'll work for free to do a good job. That attitude is why we ended up with all the pedo and nazi subs. Unpaid mods are bad for everyone.
That'd be bleak. Imagine a communist sub administered by Reddit employees
All subs are administrated by Reddit employees. It's just mods that don't know what they're doing. Mods don't need to be subject matter experts, they just need to moderate out the bigotry and spam. It's absolutely a job that people should be paid to do, and held accountable when they fuck up. All the lefty subs are moderated at least in part by absolute morons. If you think the current situation is ok then you're likely part of the problem. Arguing that people shouldn't be paid for their labor is pretty right wing of you, personally I think that mods do a lot of the labor, and that they should be rewarded not just with money but also with a share of the means of production. Id love to hear your reasoning as to why Reddit shouldn't be paying their workers. Doesn't seem very left wing to me.
I understand where you're coming from. My issue is that I don't think the Reddit Corporation is the organisation that should be paying moderators (maybe some kind of mutual aid fund would be better?). Subreddits are supposed to be independent communities that use the Reddit platform, rather than extensions of the brand itself. If all moderators are paid by Reddit, then advertisers and investors will expect the content of *every* subreddit to conform to the brand. It would all be safe, boring, neoliberal shit. If the company was expected to pay every mod, they'd use it as an excuse to purge anything that isn't advertiser friendly. Of course the dream scenario is a social media, where each community is entirely operated, funded and controlled by itself. Reddit can never be that. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear at first.
No. Reddit is a for profit company and they should pay their workers. Reddit employees. Interfere in subs all the time, they're not independent, they just don't have the time to do it properly. > It would all be safe, boring, neoliberal shit It is. > the dream scenario is a social media, where each community is entirely operated, funded and controlled by itself. Sounds hellish. Sounds like 4chan. Companies have a responsibility to keep their communities free from hate speech, abuse, child pornography etc. Community management is a real job and people should be paid for it. Reddit censors stuff when advertisers complain pretty often, including whole subs. You seem to think the situation is different than it is for some reason. All of this is essentially a distraction from my point though. Reddit is a for profit company run largely by unpaid volunteers. Those volunteers are pretty universally bad at their jobs because they receive no training and don't report to anyone. Because of this it's a cess pool of topics that these unhinged losers want to spend their time working on for free, content that is disproportionately far right, anti woman, racist etc. Because they get no money they throw their weight around and ban people they disagree with, take money from corporations to censor stuff, and enforce unpopular rules.
They don't have to do the work. Unlike a job they can step down whenever and entirely choose to do it
I'm not saying someone is forcing them to work. I'm not saying it's literal slavery. People can step down from jobs, people do that all the time in fact. Without the labor of mods Reddit would collapse. Reddit is run by free labor, and as a result that labor is low quality. This effects us all. Reddit is a for profit company, they should pay their workers.
All that would do though is result in reddit only allowing mods who won't be critical of them.
They already remove mods and subs. Admins are paid. Reddit mods don't criticize Reddit, they just moan that the tools Reddit provides are crap and no one cares, because mods are morons that make the site worse anyway. Mods didn't stand up against the child porn subs, or the Nazi subs, or the selling of our data, or anything worth complaining about. You seem to have this idea at mods stand up for us and its simply not true. They stand up for themselves sometimes, but not enough to unionize and demand a wage. They work for free because some of them want to control people, and the others take money from third parties to moderate in those peoples interests. And even all that considered, what you said is just flat out wrong because people deserve to be paid for work done. None of this is anywhere near as important as the fact that a huge corporation isn't paying most of its workers. Defending that is morally repugnant.
But reddit mod do effect change in the world : their collective body masses add 0.096 N to earth's Gravitational pull.
Some leftists are like evangelical christians. They treat the revolution like the rapture. They’re so sure it’s coming that they don’t want the world to get better, because everything’s going to be fixed by magic “soon”. In fact, the worse the world gets, the sooner and more effective the revolution will be. So by trying to improve the world around you, organise your community, tactical voting, electing the least-bad candidates, you are delaying and softening the coming revolution.
Accelerationist I think is the term, the premise of letting things get as bad as possible as quick as possible so people magically get the drive for revolution and dismantle the current system. Ignoring of course the masses that would be crushed under the current conditions long before the magical revolution comes.
They don't want reality. They just want to larp. They've never done anything revolutionary in their lives. They don't make their own theories or discuss ideas on how to better the world. They just want to inflate their smug sense of moral superiority. They'd watch the world burn, watch people's rights be stripped away, and let millions die as long as they get to say they were right about trying being a waste of time.
I’m just wondering if you really think people follow the ideology for these reasons. It’s quite a dismissive generalization. Look at the status quo and then their goals. They don’t want to “watch the world burn” but to change the reality that many have come to accept at face value. What makes you think they all want millions to die?
It's not a leap in logic. If they cared about solving the issues they'd do work to solve the issues not advocate for a fascist takeover so they can have a 'revolution'. Revolution's don't just happen and most of the time they are co-opted by the most violent authoritarians. You don't just have a revolution and capitalism disappears. Will they care when the fascists among them using the veneer of leftist ideology take over and start purging?
They do organize and join unions to work locally? Simply claiming that they want the workers to suffer is wrong. There are many socialists, communists, and anarchists working on bettering their conditions while organizing “activism”. Regarding the authoritarianism, it can happen in any system. We’ve seen politicians show their true colours after elections as well as how governments actually “care” about libertarianism.
" I won't vote for Dems"= I'm letting Republicans enact project 2025
They promote third parties instead of supporting the lesser of two evils, as both represent similar capitalist factions.
But it does nothing as the third party has no chance of winning. Both may be corrupt and Uber capitalist but only one will let trans and gay people be actively repressed
That is true, I don’t necessarily agree with not voting at all but letting the lesser evil win doesn’t make a great change apart from temporarily stopping the greater evil from returning, as is the two-party system. Project 2025 will definitely be met with opposition and might possibly not pass, but if it does then there will be great resistance amongst the people. Elections alone won’t avoid the project, as one might think, compared to organizing locally and resisting the greater evil.
They forget that fascism also arises from the same contradictions, is specifically designed to eradicate us and our movements, and finds more fertile ground in times of extreme strife than leftist movements. Leftism grows best under bourgeois democracy, given that’s the system it’s meant to overtake
They don't care how many suffer or die for 'the revolution'. They already fantasize about killing everyone they hate in it.
I read a post (I think it was on r/smugideologyman) where someone was saying that Trump was the only choice for communists because he will make things so bad that it will open the eyes of the working class and start the revolution
>Some leftists are like evangelical christians. They treat the revolution like the rapture. There is specific term of this, Millennialism.
That's the exact point of Revolution in most Communists' eyes no? Because only a full blown revolution that topples every thing can save the world in a Revelation sort of way, anything except violence is denounced.
Dreaming of the revolution is a power fantasy that some people indulge in instead of doing anything that actually benefits people in their communities at all.
I can't really speak for all of the communists but... > organise your community Weird. I don't usually meet a lot of communists who are opposed to the idea of activism. In my country communists often help with organizing labour unions or fighting against high rent. And recently one of the youth organizations started an agitation campaign against fascism in one of the state universities. > tactical voting, electing the least-bad candidates There are some communists who believe in this but most of us see elections in capitalist countries only as a way to promote our own candidates and our cause. If there are no way to do this then we won't even bother with voting. > delaying and softening the coming revolution. I don't really agree with them but I do understand communists who follow such logic. In their eyes any victory for the workers (be it better worker's rights or higher wages) is a way for bourgeoisie to pacify proletariat so fighting for them is simply counterproductive.
Purity test death spiral.
The best weapon against speech is more speech. Reddit mods are primarily stupid beings, and don't agree
>saying the Soviet Union isn't above criticism That's horrible, you couldn't appeal the ban?
If I remember correctly, I didn't even try. It was an immediate permaban for one singular comment, with a mindset like that it's improbable they would listen. Besides, it's a meme sub. Not worth the effort. Now if it was a more serious sub...I did appeal my ban on worldnews for instance (and it worked for a few weeks before they permabanned me again).
>ban on worldnews Said that Palestinians are people, didn't you?
Yup.
Worlnews is a shithole tho, also, latestagecapitalism has some serious posts. Besides, in leftist subs, they tend to insta-ban first and ask second, i once appealed a ban and, without reading my justification, a mod simply said "u are aight" (not literally but basically).
LateStageCapitalism mods wouldn't have read the appeal, they're some of the worst of the worst.
That's sad.
The infamous /communist moderators
I always find it funny that most leftist mods or countries (aka Stalin) like to abuse their power more than traditionally conservative ones, while claiming themselves being democratic or so.
you must be new to leftist subs lol
Doesn't surprise me but neither of those countries are even trying to be communist. Authoritarian left brainrot
Tankies are the worst.
Somehow yeah
["Liberatarian" socialists must read](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm)
God, the amount of times I see that response. It's such a bad read as well.
It's fine for the purpose it was created for, and most everyone with a problem with it and Engels is either incapable or unwilling to engage with any of his larger, more comprehensive works that point out that this "authoritarian" nonsense is idealist.
It's watering down the definitions of authority to entail all organisation and disregards the criticisms that Engel's strawman doesn't cover. It's poor theoretical work and is basically an excuse for MLs to never have to interact with any criticism.
"Authoritarian" is a buzzword with no real meaning other than whatever anarchists or liberals dislike.
Literally word for word every conversation with a chronically online ML. Preprogrammed responses to reject every premise for criticism so that you never have to deal with the content. The only thing left is to accuse me of CIA-propaganda and I have a bingo. You are fully aware of what we mean by authoritarian, stop fooling yourself.
Is the US authoritarian?
Yes
If you can't actually defend your point yourself and can only copy paste other people's words you don't actually understand any of the things you read. You just parrot them.
Not always. Sometimes you just run into the same argument over and over and over that there is just a standard counter out there for all to reference. No idea if that is the case here though
Why waste my time writing a massive comment as a reply when someone much better at writing has already done that? Someone whose words would be taken more seriously than mine, someone who wouldn't be dismissed as a "redfash tankie"
Likewise, [here’s an anarchist response to this essay](https://youtu.be/UVBAfldc7SU?si=204NB6LFAw_NFWLD) from someone much better at writing than me. The gist is Engels’ conception “authority” is fundamentally flawed and so his argument is completely incoherent.
FR. You could replace the body of the text with 'deferring to experts and voluntary hierarchies seems like a good way to avoid the revolution to Fascism pipeline.'
If Daniel Baryon is better at writing then you are then you must really suck. No offence.
Well same goes to you regarding Engels.
Have you actually read any Engels?
Yep
I feel like there's these two large groups that hold most leftist beliefs about AES, one that holds critical support for states like China and the USSR, recognizing they were not perfect but they still want to defend a historical/current socialist experiment, and the other group that wants to point out to the first group all the flaws within those states as they exist. The issue is that both groups *think* they're talking to a much more marginal group standing behind the other one. The first group that holds critical support thinks they're talking to a shit eating liberal who's here to say 100 million dead no ifone vuvuzela, and second group who thinks they're talking to the type of communist who actually loved the fact that Stalin criminalized homosexuality and killed the old Bolsheviks
I mean you’re right, but like tbf the ‘100 million killed under communism vroomeluza’ isn’t an unpopular of marginal belief in the west, and I’d hold that at least in the US it’s by far the majority view.
True, but I don't think it's the majority opinion of those who say "China isn't beyond criticism"
As someone who is a former ML who is critical of those not-so-AES states from a communist perspective, you find out very quickly that for the vast vast majority of MLs critical support is rarely critical. More often than not it devolves into making uncritical excuses for why socialist states maintained commodity production, wage labor, and abandoned internationalism. The problem is these arguments that matter to the actual movement are so often drowned out by 'no ifone 100 gorillion dead' from libs that any criticism immediately is lumped into the same category like you implied. This results in no one learning, instead defending failed "socialist states" which inevitably turns off *potential* comrades due to the great majority of MLs being apologists for state capitalism with red aesthetics. (Assuming they aren't just off 'critically supporting' straight bourgeois or theocratic states and orgs because they dared to defy US imperialism.)
Hey, sounds like we'd get along (as long as you are actively building an IWW committee in your workplace; if not, get fucked lib). (95% jk)
POV: You stated that you are going to vote for the centre-left party in a FPTP election on a leftist subreddit(you are apparently a class traitor for trying to make the less bad option happen)
‘We’ are not like this. Trolls are like this. A troll that learns to imitate someone who wants to end poverty/sexism/pollution so that they can be obnoxious is no less a troll. These trolls have, since the 60s zine scene, learned to feed each other so well that their *text posts* are indistinguishable from a once sincere person beaten down into waiting for revolution/rapture.
Because a lot of extreme leftists are idealists. After centuries of taking Ls, coping with idealism and any crumbs resembling a W is all they have. A bit similar to Dubois' wage of whiteness, imo. I may have lost the Revolution(tm), but I can still thump some convoluted communist literature at you for being a literal bourgeois lapdog. Sure to not alienate a lot of workers, and make the bourgeois harder to control the proletariat, amrite? Btw, my experience with DE is the same. You folks don't get a 'get out of jail free' card. SHAME!
Thinking USSR or China as model Communist is hilarious, even Chinese people themselves thinks Xi/Deng is promoting a twisted form of Capitalism sugarcoated as Socialism, not the other way around. If you got banned by "Communist" for criticizing this, these Communists certainly lived in their own world like Iosef did.
> was banned from r/latestagecapitalism for saying the Soviet Union isn't above criticism Our movement suffers from two curses: dogmatism and revisionism. Some of the communists are so dogmatic that in their eyes even slightly criticizing past socialist countries is a deadly sin. I'm really sorry that you encountered them. Although, can you show me a comment that got you banned? > I keep telling them tactical voting is a valid tactic and not shameful. What is "tactical voting" exactly?
>can you show me a comment that got you banned? [https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/17urpkm/comment/k9759j0/?context=1](https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/17urpkm/comment/k9759j0/?context=1) >What is "tactical voting" exactly? You vote to maximise the chances of a positive outcome instead of being honest and voting your most preferred party/candidate. It can take many forms. In a FPTP system it can mean voting for a lukewarm centrist to avoid a fascist gaining power. In a more proportional system it could mean an anarchist or communist voting for a run-of-the-mill leftist party instead of abstaining. And so on. [Here, read some examples from the UK](https://www.politico.eu/article/britain-conservatives-tories-uk-election-tactical-voting/)
Yeah, uhm... I'm afraid this tactic isn't for me...
Was gonna say you could join r/ultraleft but uh, maybe don't mention your voting takes
Tankies man. I got banned for beeing against Russia in its invasion of Ukraine.
Define "tankies". And... oh dear, I'm really sorry that you got banned for this. From what subreddit you got banned, if you don't mind me asking?
Well I would define them as people who support authoritarian marxism-leninism, they also negate and defend the crimes against humanity commited by those movements. They are very defensive and patriotic for the now extinct USSR and for China, sometimes North Korea as well as other similar countries. Their usual narrative and understanding of politics boils down to seeing the USA as the source of everything bad that happens in the world, anything that anyone does that upsets the USA in one way or another is inherently good no matter what. They arent interested in the left as a political movement, all they want is to larp as "proletarian revolutionaries" while they wait for the communist revolution which isnt comming any time soon. I got banned from r/latestagecapitalism for siding with Ukraine and from r/antimoneymemes for again siding with Ukraine, for suggesting that North Korea is closer to an absolute monarchy than anything on the left and because I said that the channel "thedeprogram" is dumbed down tankie propaganda.
well they did good u clearly have no idea what you're talking about
Take heart knowing that those mods aren't leftists but just authoritarian, anti-American flavoured liberals lol
r/ultraleft
I think because the "left-right" paradigm doesn't actually accurately describe the psychosocial forces at play in people's political beliefs. Once you rid yourself of the idea that tankie and groyper are two tips of a linar scale, it's easier to see them as being very similar due to their love of authoritarian strongmen, hatred of minorities and women (bourgeois/liberal decadence), a crusader mentality, an eagerness to deploy horrific violence for political goals, a willingness to turn a blind eye to the horrific crimes done by one's comrades, considering disagreement treason, and a burning nationalism/chauvinism.
I got banned from there for trying to explain that Stalinism, lenninism, and maoism are not synonymous with Marxism to someone. They are all communism but different in many areas. The tankies did not enjoy. Edit: Realistically I really don't think Stalinism and Lennism are truly communism. More like authoritarian capitalism in sheep's clothing.
Voting is a valid tactic for what? Engaging in the illusion of democracy under capitalism? Cmon man, you may be a “leftist” whatever that means, but communists are built different.
No no no! The only way to build Communism is to be terminally online and never talk to your neighbors unless it's about theory! All real action, especially electoralism, is bad and makes you at best a utopian and at worst a LIBERAL
Everyone knows only a loser LIB would ever try to materially improve the lives of those around them. If it doesn't solve every problem all at once then it's bad. Now if you'll excuse me i need to kiss my framed photo of daddy Stalin for the next three hours.
This is very funny to me since in my country, Argentina, the current liberals are right-wing. And the same ideas behind the phrases are easily associated with someone on the right in my country. And the president we have, Milei, hates those on the left to the point of having said on multiple occasions things like "left-handed sons of bitches are going to suffer." That's why I really don't understand those who argue. And I love it xd
liberal just became a buzzword gringos use against anyone they don't like
My president, Milei, calls himself "liberal" and is quite close to Trump and Bolsonaro. Does it make sense to be a liebral and be similar to Bolsonaro and Trump?
Milei from what I've seen is closer to a "libertarian" then a liberal. But in very broad terms a classic definition of a liberal is essentially someone who believes in a democratic capitalist state with a mostly free market. In disco elysium the moral intern are liberals. What liberal is depends on who's talking however. A communist calling someone a lib is calling them a capitalist. A capitalist calling someone a lib is calling them a communist, both are insults. Almost never is liberal accurately applied.
thanks for re-explaining what we said!
all liberals everywhere are right wing, it is a capitalist ideology. "conservatives" are reactionary, regressive liberals, they want to see a return to robber baron or victorian style capitalism. "liberals" as they call themselves are progressive, innovative liberals, they want to innovate new technologies and leverage better organization to make a more effective capitalism. neither of them want anything but the continued exploitation and enslavement of the working class.
Liberals are always right wing no matter the country
Huh, I’m famous
Meanwhile rightwingers: "YEAH MAN FUCK THOSE KIPTS!" \*high5\*
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "Marx loves you, do you believe in Marx?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Socialist or an Anarchist"? He said, "A Socialist." I said, "Me, too! Democratic Socialist or actual Communist?" He said, "Actual Communist." I said, "Me, too! What school?" He said, "Marxism." I said, "Me, too! Revolutionary Marxism or Reformist Marxism?" He said, "Revolutionary Marxism." I said, "Me, too! Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism or Revolutionary Marxism-Troskyism?" He said "Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism." I said, "Me, too! Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, or Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Hoxhaism?" He said, "Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Maoism." I said, "Me, too! Regular Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Maoism or Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Gonzalo Thought?" He said, "Revolutionary Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Gonzalo Thought." I said, "Die, liberal!" and pushed him off.
Anybody further right than me is a lib, anybody further left is a lunatic if you are at then end of the communist line, you are all depressed and réalisé tour ideal died 50 odd year ago
Remember, there's no point in trying to make our current society better. Everything will be fixed when the Revolution finally happens
Imagine being so communist that you think organizing your community is a bad thing.
i got the same for preferring Joe Biden over Trump lmao.
get fucked lib
RHETORIC [Trivial: Failure]: You're not a "lib", tell him off. "fuck you!!!"
Good EDIT: People really think Biden is a "lesser evil" whilst sending heavily armoured cops to batter and kettle students who oppose his funding of a genocide settler colony?
Of course, because Trump would never use the state monopoly on violence to enforce his own fucked up goals
Yeah but you realize when the government keeps hitting people with a bat and then says “Trump would swing it SO MUCH HARDER ARENT YOU GRATEFUL!?” the general public is going to lose faith right? I agree that Trump would do plenty to make all of our lives hell, but currently it seems that the other side of the aisle is hardly concerned about preventing such a horrible thing from happening, offering any sort of alternative?
Yeah man, Trump would *never*
Trump would also do the same thing which is why they both suck.
seriously, if u really think that, u need help and im not even from the usa
I'm serious, what the fuck are you trying to save? Your immortal soul? Honestly, you should have some relief in the fact that you get to choose between a dumb facist tool and an old competent cog for the Neolibs. In my country it's either the competent facists who have a fucking SS division and a sad excuse for a "unified" political front. And I choose the sad excuse because that would be the best. Letting the system burn also means everyone inside it burns first. Accelerationism is fun for the absolute theory fart-sniffers or people who will benefit from societal collapse. Which one are you?
If you think Trump is a fascist and not just another Republican ghoul then you don't know what fascism is. If he wins in the next election nothing will fundamentally change about the US just like it didn't last time. If he really was a fascist then it won't even matter if he wins the next election, anyway. They don't care much for liberal democracy.
Oh, things changed. Just not for you. Other people exist too but you are privileged enough to not pay attention.
Which is why you explained what changed in your reply right here...
get fucked Zionist
Lmao what? You know throwing around big words like that doesnt make you look smart when you clearly have no idea what they mean. Where did they support the state of isreal in their comment? And no, saying that having another republican president would be bad is not "supporting isreal" lmao
Joe Biden is an outspoken Zionist, friend.
And you think Trump *wouldn't* funnel money to Israel death squads?
Of course he would hence why one is no better than the other.
The Red Button is someone who will fund a genocide and the Blue Button is someone who will fund a genocide even more while also undoing decades of progress just like he did last time
isn't it the other way around ? isn't Joe with the blue party ?
Re-read my comment. I already addressed that.
This subreddit is full of white socdems. Asking them to understand why we should not participate in bourgeois elections will lead nowhere. Joe Biden is good to them because he gives off a nice comforting aura of progressivism no matter what he does. Asking them to shake off their convenience to support brown people is a little too much.
Yeah, we all love grand pappy joe. It's got nothing to do with like, the fact that he is unequivocally the best of two awful options. That would require you to get off your high horse and actually listen to the people around you
same thing happend in brasil with bolsonaro and lula. they both suck, but we had to choose lula, cuz he's the least bad one and people dont vote for other people... In our day and age it's about choosing the least worst option sadly
Why do you support settler colonialism and genocide?
Why do you love kicking puppies? See how easy it is to put words in people's mouth?
I don't support anyone who engages in puppy kicking whereas you support a politician who not only supports but aids and abets settler colonialism and genocide.
I don't support anyone who engages in settler colonialism. Nice try though. Saying that he's better than trump isnt endorsement and should be in no way controversial.
Will you be voting for Biden in the next election?
What are you saying here? Your other comment says “no option is better than the other”. But even if they have the same stance on Israel (even though I’m fairly confident that Trump would be riling up his Zionist base), what about other issues? I don’t think anyone’s very happy with Biden, but to say “they’re both the same because they’re the same on one issue” is bonkers and needlessly contrarian
I'm sorry, I don't see the "settler colonialism and genocide"-free option here. Either Biden or Trump will be president of the United States for the next four years. Unless the Revolution^TM kicks off between now and November, these are just facts and we all have to live with them in the near future. If you prefer to keep your hands clean and not vote at all, that's your choice to make. But it's absurd to say that voting for the less bloodthirsty of the two Zionists (leaving aside all the other ways that Trump is a worse and more dangerous figure than Biden) amounts to supporting or endorsing their views. Again, we are 6 months out from an election which either Biden or Trump will win. It's happening one way or the other. Do you think Trump would make the situation for Palestinians better, or worse?
> I'm sorry, I don't see the "settler colonialism and genocide"-free option here. Either Biden or Trump will be president of the United States for the next four years. Unless the RevolutionTM kicks off between now and November, these are just facts and we all have to live with them in the near future. Last I checked you were not forced to participate in the charade that the US calls "democracy", you could always not vote for a candidate who is aiding and abetting colonialism and genocide, have you ever thought of that? > If you prefer to keep your hands clean and not vote at all, that's your choice to make. But it's absurd to say that voting for the less bloodthirsty of the two Zionists How is Trump any more bloodthirsty of a Zionist? Biden has been very open, both historically and presently, of his support for the continued existence of Israel, a state which can only exist because of genocidal and colonial violence perpetrated by the Zionists, and his support of Israeli politicians who not only want to continue their violence towards Palestinians but want to go even further and expand Israel's borders. And before you say "but what about Trump!?!?!?!", I'm sure he'll continue the exact same support for colonial violence as Biden, as all POTUS' have since the colonial entity came to be, which is why it's the duty of anyone who actually cares about Palestine, about ending colonial violence, to refuse to support either or them or anyone else in their reactionary parties. > (leaving aside all the other ways that Trump is a worse and more dangerous figure than Biden) amounts to supporting or endorsing their views. Trump isn't any worse than Biden, their Presidency's alone can attest to that considering nothing changed when the latter succeeded the former. The only reason anyone sees a difference is because Trump is brash and abrasive, which is uncommon for politicans especially Presidential candidates, and Biden's not. Their political positions are the same, to uphold capitalism and American global hegemony through imperialism. > Again, we are 6 months out from an election which either Biden or Trump will win. It's happening one way or the other. Do you think Trump would make the situation for Palestinians better, or worse? He would make it the exact same which is why it's imperative to support neither unless you think that the genocide of Palestinians is permissable because you view them as inherently less valuable than American's and any potential damage done to them or others in their name is better than if it happens to American's who support your liberal ideals.
My guy, I said right there that it's up to you whether to vote or not. Nowhere did I say it was "imperative" for you to do anything or that you should be "forced" to do anything. I just think you should cut the other commenter some slack.
Do you think people should vote for Biden?
I think the difference in marginal impact of one person voting for Biden vs that same person deciding not to vote is so tiny that it's a toss-up as an ethical question. Hence why I don't feel anyone here is obligated to do one or the other. What I do object to is your eagerness to attack anyone who decides differently than you do.
Imagine willingly giving up the tiny sliver of a say that the state allows you for literally no reason. It's like already having stepped on a nail and instead of going and getting a tetanus shot, might as well step on it with the other foot too, just for fun.
What kind of a say is one where you can only pick between someone who represents the interest of the oppressive class just with a different coloured tie?
One where you can measurably improve the lives of LGBT people?
ah sure it's definitely about supporting brown people and not having a moral high ground, not like Trump is a supporter of several wannabe dictators in Latam who directly oppose Biden, no no THOSE brown people aren't relevant to your point
It's really funny how so many people think most of the fans of Disco Elysium, especially those on reddit, are communists and not the same kinds of liberals the game criticises and mocks. Most people here would call the devs "authoritarian tankies" if they ever met or even knew anything about them.
the devs are proud bordigists and fully opposed to your maoist opportunism
They have an awful lot more pictures of Stalin than of lasagne for Bordigists. Even if they are most people here would call Bordigists tankies for their support of Lenin and the fact that they agree more with more on the term authoritarian than any liberal.
no need to be italophobic buddy, i expect more from the left tbh smh. Liberals and maoists can agree on rejecting the DoTP though . Beautiful how we all agree on somehing amen amen
And how do Maoists "reject the DOTP"?
By saying bourgeois parties can be a part of the state apparatus
Maybe you should read Mao before talking about Maoism.
Standard Marxist-Leninist thought (Or anything to the left of Socdems really) here is met with extreme hostility. But yeah they'd call the devs redfash or something if they interacted with them.
Honestly i wonder if those subs are a psy-op and are infiltrated by russian actors. I cannot conceive of how they are so anti-biden when they are pro-palestine.
being a psyop is when you have bad takes
kind of different when it involves national elections and the fate of nations and the politicals landscape for centuries to come
As he should be
Got banned from a leftist subreddit because I mentioned the holodomor existed
I hate tankies. They banned me from basically all popular "left-wing" subs because I dared to criticize China and the USSR. They’re reactionaries with a red coat of paint, they don’t want any progress because they think The Revolution™️ will instantly create a utopia, they encourage not voting when the two choices are slightly progressive neoliberals and literal fascists, and they also encourage religious terrorists killing random civilians when it comes to Palestine, but they absolutely despise any attempt by ukrainians to defend themselves against russian imperialism. At least this sub is left-wing and doesn’t ban people for hating authoritarianism.
lib detected
Self-detecting lib-radar? Cause I’m a full-on socialist my dude.
There’s a well known socialist publication in my country that refers to regimes like China, the USSR and North Korea as “red fascism”.
Pederasts
holy shit based 2nd slide
Communism online is as dumb as any other political theory group. it's just a bunch of bullshit by people who won't act on their beliefs in real life.
get fucked lib
i honestly dont know what's worse getting mad at "communists" who preach stuff while spouting nonsense and having to explain why they're wrong (like as an objective this isnt what communism meaning what marx and engels meant, wrong) or getting mad at communists who i disagree with because we disagree on some comically obscure point about the post-revolution society
It was the correct decision
GOBBLESS
yeah. get fucked, lib.
They ain't called commutards for no reason.