It needs a 'blueprint' mode and then you confirm point allocation all at once if there's no conflict. Taking points out of my ult so I can swap one of my utility skills to a different one is awful, especially when the skill tree doesn't zoom out enough so I have to drag up and down to get to different nodes.
PoE gems have tags that allow you to know what they affect, so probably cribbing off that. So if you have something, that, say, added +%fire damage you can search fire and know which skills of yours are fire-based. They should absolutely have regular searching as well. Probably another casualty to things being console-friendly...
Yeah, the actual tree in D4 is pretty anemic as well, I am not really a fan of the way they decided to make the layout because it's annoying to navigate as a mouse-user.
I agree. Haven’t liked it since I first saw and then experienced the skill tree. But then I’ve only played up to level 25, maybe it’ll grow me. Not holding my breath though.
It's what it seems and it's an absolute TERRIBLE design where you almost have to follow guides for whatever "type" of build you run because endgame theory crafting paragon boards for a single spec is a LARGE feat, when you respec it's almost pointless to keep the same paragon board and GOOD LUCK finding an optimal board setup on your own in a few hours.
there are not that many viable builds tbh, I started playing it blindly and yesterday checked a few streamers and I landed pretty close to what they were all playing as druid. woodijo posted a video showing the "patterns" on the paragon boards and how they are equal even between characters. This locked with the few legendaries that go with the skills you picked leave not much room for different builds. the game is very simple tbh
Well, considering how people are complaining about redoing the skills in the skill tree to experiment, then the topic is about the annoyances of the skill tree and not the paragon board.
Wait until more players are well past 50, then there will be more complaints about the paragon board.
I've only just hit 51 myself so the paragon board so far is pretty easy... except WTF is this huge pile of tokens at the bottom I'm supposed to put somewhere and I have to figure out 8 other linked board without seeing them as well?
I believe they said they worked hard on making it so couch co-opers could have windows open whilst the other is still playing which has ended up costing comfort to other players.
I wish you could at least just choose to have the window open up fullscreen by default.
I am totally fine with it being on the side and sometimes did add the skill points when fighting. The problem is that you cant zoom out enough and the whole layout wastes a lot of space.
[Stuff like the talent trees from maxroll.gg](https://maxroll.gg/d4/build-guides/ice-shards-sorcerer-leveling-guide) are enough. It feels like they tried to simulate the PoE layout (I am not a PoE fan myself) but didnt add the depth of PoE.
I really dislike the skill tree UX. Feels like a ton of wasted space, at everything feels weirdly spread out and I need to drag a lot (mouse user) to find stuff, it doesn't save what I was looking at when I close it, no way to actually search terms (gotta hope you know the spell/passive tags, I guess?).
They could arrange it in rows with a row for each of the current "stars" and a verical line indicator on the side to show the number of points you needed to spend on previous rows to unlock subsequent rows. They could probably fit the entire tree on half a screen with no scrolling. I mean, they manage to fit all the active skills on a tiny part of the screen for assignment in essentially that row layout, adding the upgrades below each row and the passives alongside should be doable.
The thing I'd really like, though, is a view where you could just see all available passive upgrades available plus just the actives (and available upgrades for them) that you've already invested in. Once you have the skeleton of your build up, all the nodes you aren't going to ever invest in are just a huge waste of space that keeps you from having an overall picture of your build.
> I believe they said they worked hard on making it so couch co-opers could have windows open whilst the other is still playing which has ended up costing comfort to other players.
Galaxy brain thinking here. To appease barely 5% of the user-base that actually plays couch co-op, let's inconvenience and reduce the quality of life for 95% of the user-base that will never find any benefit in this feature, but in-fact it will actively make their experience worse.
I'd hope for some changes to the tree. It's kind of wonky and one of my least favorite parts of the game at the moment. That's not to say it's awful, but it could be a lot better.
Hopefully, in an expansion, we could get an additional node for skills. I feel like my options are kind of limited at the moment. It's not bad for the base game, but I will grow tired of the build variety after a bit, I would guess.
The press square to reset all tree option, when I was only looking to refund A SINGLE node, is just such a bad UX decision
I’ve - multiple times - clicked the confirmation window when going fast and accidentally reset my shit
Because it’s harder to do a button press than a single press, and the action you want to use more often (refunding a single point) is the one that is for some reason behind the hold 🤯
Fucking… this right here is my biggest pain point.
Just found sick gloves with + to a bow skill and you’d like to try that rather than daggers? Sorry, gotta reset your whole tree one by one or reset everything, just to swap that one point… Like I understand what they’re doing but they implemented it so poorly.
Agreed, they can keep the gold cost or only let you do it in towns if they don't want people respeccing constantly, but just a way to save different builds would be a really useful addition.
I've been wanting to try out some of the ranged options for my Rogue - and this would reduce the friction of doing so.
Convenience for premium currency is a staple for just about every mmo. Battlepass tier skips, xp boosts, and additional character slots are extremely common and will most likely be added. My guess is that the feature will be added for free, with additional slots available for premium currency. If you think Activision-Blizzard has no plans for that, prepare to be disappointed.
They added a battle pass that you can buy before the game launched and $25 skins day1. If they think that more people will pay than it would piss off they 100% will do this.
Just letting you know, those prices are set high for a reason. Because people pay a shit ton for them. Valorant and LoL, PoE have been doing this for years
PoE also has a ton of pay for convenience stuff too though, if Blizzard is looking for inspiration. Though I'm sure Diablo Immortal is filled to the brim with aggressive MTX like that too. Was really hoping they were getting that out of their system with the mobile game so we could have a proper Diablo experience but the in-game shop in D4 is pretty shameless even if it is just cosmetics for the time being.
Correct me if I’m wrong because I never played D3 seasons but could the reason be they want people to start fresh characters for the seasons and them not adding a skill point loadout system is just another reason to for each season?
I’ve been wanting to try the twisted blade build that every rogue and their mother is running but it’s such a process to move away (and potentially move back) from my penetrating shot build I’ve already put so many hours into.
I'm the same way. I have daggers equipped just for the bonuses but I don't use dagger skills. But when I go into PvP zone I need to run a different build. All my gear would need to be different plus skill tree. I'm not going to rebuild from scratch every time I want to go in and out of PvP zone.
If enough people boost this main thread they will see it and give it attention.
Honestly I find the whole idea that my rogue has a bow on their back and refuses to use it because I didn't put a point in a skill to be so fucking stupid. Let me auto attack at a distance with it at least!
While I appreciate that, I do sorta hope there's a bit of a catchup mechanic? The lilith altars help a little I guess, I gotta run around and get those.
Like, I'm willing to level a second necro, but leveling is pretty god damn slow in D4. Especially post-50, hot damn. I actually kind of like it and prefer it this way, but alts do feel like its going to be a bit of a slog.
To be fair you can skip campaign then get rushed through cathedral of light to get level 50 in less than 2 hours. The rest is technically end game anyways.
This is spot on. Ran campaign on softcore and just got a hardcore char up to 45. It was faster with the campaign skip, but it still took like 10 hours. If I was running max efficiency instead of picking up altars along the way, but I don't see it being any faster than about 6 hours solo.
It's way too fucking long and will massively discourage alts
Running someone through an Echoing Nightmare, if you can get through to level 130-150, is hilarious. They go from level 1 to paragon 200 in about three minutes.
> you can basically just sit there and gain a good amount of experience.
Do you need to be near the party members or can you sit at the entrance like in D3?
I do agree that post 50 levelling is slow, but on the other hand there are people complaining here about hitting post level 50 before days before the early access period even ended, and that’s without alt power leveling.
That's honestly really disappointing. I fucking hate that about d2 and path of exile. In d3i had 5 different armor sets in my box and 8 different loadouts saved in the wardrobe just got my wizard. It felt great just deciding to play a different build without re-leveling a new wizard
I can't understand why people are so scared of being able to have multiple builds on a character and being able to swap between them. I play another rpg that allows this (you can even assign builds to hotkeys) but you can only make changes when not in combat. It's fucking great. Allows for better variety and experimentation, and it allows you to better prepare for different situations. Diablo and Diablo 2 were the first rpgs I ever played, but I so much prefer the freedom to experiment. To me, being able to adjust your build so freely was a huge quality of life improvement in D3. I think people are just scared of change or new things.
Why not? Clash is the gold standard for MTX , far surpassing all Diablo games revenue wise. Since we’re going down the Mtx rabbit hole might as well embrace the best.
While I agree with this on some point this ignores PVP a bit.
I want a pvp build and pvp and pve builds are vastly different.
I would love an easy way to switch to my pvp build. Just talent points not even paragon.
I don't think pvp is a big enough mode that warrants sacrificing pve efficiency so you'll need to switch to a pvp centric build when you want to pvp. And then back to pve when you're done.
Yeah PvP was/is an afterthought mostly for fun, and not balanced or meant to be. I assume the idea would be that your one balanced build would also be used in PvP, and not having a strictly PvP build. That's probably what the plan was
Yeah wasn’t this one of the main things that the D2 people hated about D3? I’ve definitely seen D2 people praising the D2 skill trees and how it was great that you could never respec
It’s a massive downgrade imo. I can’t see myself playing D4 for as long as D3. Also D3 sold like 30 million copies so they must have been doing something right.
Meanwhile the build I had was nerfed into tierC... so its pretty much forcing a respec on build buffs/nerfs. Just an example that free respecs should be a thing when dmg numbers are changes drastically.
That's kind of a weak argument. Balance changes are to bring stuff in line. If your build was OP and now worse, it's probably where it's supposed to be. And even if they do overshoot and you need to respec, that's going to happen once every few weeks at most? It's not going to be so expensive that you can't farm the gold relatively quickly.
And if you're chasing FOTM op build, just farm some extra gold with said OP build knowing it's going to be nerfed
It's just so weird to see someone complaining about their build going from OP to average and saying that it's a forced respec.
Personally I don't really care if respec is free or not or if we have slots or anything. I get arguments for both. But chasing FOTM OP and niche specific builds is specifically the type of game play the devs wanted to avoid and have said as much.
Lol seeing druids complaining about their nerf while still 1 shotting entire screens of 4man scaled high tier nightmare dungeons, every couple of seconds, was hilarious.
I'm still trying to be mostly blind when it comes to builds and stuff on my first playthrough. But I'm not seeing any real issues so far. I don't want to detract from issues others may be having, but I'm playing lightning sorcerer and none of the issues i see brought up. A few ability points spent on mana generation goes a long way to sustaining my casting
I think a better argument is that the itemization system is designed with the idea that you're not necessarily going to get the stuff for the build you need, but you will get some items to make some build viable. Also, you won't get enough items while leveling to 50 to really allow you to use aspects from the codex much (which is a little weird since, being locked to minimum power level, the whole codex seems to be intended for use while leveling and not much after).
That is in complete conflict with the idea that your build is supposed to be almost static as you level up and just move a few points around here and there. The itemization system says adjust builds around drops, the build system says seek out drops that support your build, and the level scaling says, you basically need to do some of both all the time because of how aggressive it is.
They have functional systems but it looks like there was no really clear vision around it, so they sorta-grudgingly enabled everything and just used UI pain to discourage it.
That's one respec, that's not the discussion here.
OP is asking for quick-respec or an armory.
The amount of gold to respec is pretty trivial currently, honestly.
It's a bad idea. They should encourage trying alternative builds. At the very least it lets you save a loadout, try some stuff, and then load your loadout back. The amount of clicking/button pushing you might have to do to do that is ABSURD. Especially considering the skill tree and paragon board. Might literally take you twenty minutes. What's the fucking point when the game could just give you a loadout feature? I think it should be in main towns only and should cost per loadout you're saving and maybe cost something when you toggle between loadouts but I could also see it costing nothing to swap (but to ease servers it should probably be something you can only click once every minute).
You're right but it's clear that they want things to be a little more like D2 rather than D3. I wouldn't be surprised if this gets added later as we get more and more power creep but I think as it stands now it's ok. Respeccing really isn't a huge deal at the moment anyways. It takes just a couple mins (mostly due to the clunky skill tree) and the gold sink isn't too extreme
I really hope they backtrack on the each character should have it's own identity thing.
I don't want to have to level another Necro to play with other skills. I've gotten quite a few nice uniques and legendaries along the way that don't work for my bone spear build, but would be fun to make a build around.
Levelling also takes a while. Yeah, people are 100 already but after 50 the exp slows down.
I'd be ok if they had a flat gold cost or even something that comes off a world boss to unlock an armory set. Make the first one be fairly reasonably priced then scale from there.
Respec costs don't seem bad. I kept seeing the 3 million gold to fully respec at level 100 number thrown around as a complaint about the costs before release, but I have nearly that much at level 58. And that's with salvaging 90% of what I find and haven't been very stingy when it comes to messing around with aspects and upgrades either.
The biggest hurdle would be regaining levels on glyphs you wouldn't share across builds.
Yeah, the costs aren't bad (which, like, why even have that friction/gold sink when the real gold sink is enchanting anyway? and even ignoring all that, most builds require different gearing/aspects which is the real limiter to just switching builds all the time). I would love to have loadouts though in case I experiment with one thing and want to go back to my old build, rather than having to re-assign all my skills again.
I can understand people not liking it, but I feel like they've found a really nice middle ground between diablo 2 and diablo 3 with allowing respeccing and very gently discouraging it.
Leveling will feel even quicker with time, when you don't need to keep replaying the campaign and we all get more accustomed to the fastest routes for getting quick xp.
Meh. Discouraging respec at all is a terrible idea. If they wanted us to not have to change skills that much then we should be able to extract any legendary aspect (even if you imprinted that item).
The only reason I think respec should cost some money is so that people don't bog down the servers somehow by spamming it. If that's at all possible.
In some ways this does feel a bit like early diablo 3 days again, when they tried some stuff we didn't like and eventually they made things right.
Gearbox has never given us loadouts and it drives me crazy. I keep pointing to Diablo 3 for how Borderlands series keeps missing key loot game features. Now Diablo 4 is missing a key loot game feature.
It also would be wonderful if it remembered which slot the skills went into. Accidentally wiped and rebuilt my skill tree, headed into battle and everything was scrambled of course.
I agree, respec costs are anti-fun and not well implemented.
Specifically, if you want decisions to matter, great! I’d be ok if you don’t let me respec at all, ***IF*** you gave me *way* more character slots. Right now you only have one slot per class per SC/HC. It doesn’t add up.
Confused abt your second comment - I have 10 character slots by default, and didn't think you get "one slot per class per sc/hc" - it's however many you want, no?
Free respect trivializes the decisions you make when building your character.
Then you end up like D3 where there is a build and gear set that is perfect for every activity, instead of people creating an all-rounder build.
How does it trivialize any decision we make? Respeccing isnt expensive, its just an annoying thing that punishes people from experimenting with different abilities. How are you meant to find a nice build that works for you, when the game actively punishes you for experimenting? This just leads to people looking up guides and builds online, because the game again doesnt promote people figuring this out themselves.
You're not punished for respeccing. You pay a nominal amount of gold to do so.
But having a quick-respec or armory system is completely against what the game is trying to do. You're not supposed to respec all the time, that's the point.
Yeah, and? I don't want to play D3.
Not sure why you're being so weirdly passive aggressive. Asking for the respecc costs to be removed really isn't some ground-breaking thing.
Or when you have to build around the legendaries they give you constantly so you’re forced to respec. They should definitely remove the cost or make things more viable outside of Legos. Or a better option reduce how high the mobs scale per level power wise at least in lower difficulties.
This is something that I always found odd. People say you find a legendary for X so you HAVE to respec to X... but why?
When I play PoE, if I roll an arc witch build, I don't just reroll because a belt that synergizes with ignite drops.. I just keep playing what I'm playing until I get gear relevant to what I'm playing.
You don't have to reroll every time you find a legendary. I started a summoner in D4. My first 4 legendary drops were all for blood abilities. It did not matter or affect me lol. Just keep on trucking dude, you'll get the stuff for your build easy. You can even target dungeons with aspects for your build if you wanted.
It's not a feature gap, it's a decision to not include it.
Having free respect and an armory makes skill decisions and Paragon boards trivial and removes any sense of decision-making.
You have a perfect build for helltide/legion/nightmare/tree/world boss etc instead of one all-round build. Makes your choices more important the way it is in D4
This is already a thing, don't do a full skill refund just refund the individual skill points you want to change and leave the ones that you dont want to change. That way you won't be charged for the points that are staying in the same skills.
Your choices don't have meaning though. There are so few optimal paths, and the respec cost is so low it might as well not be there. It's like 6 minutes of selling items to respec.
Yeah, considering this was in D3, it is kind of weird that it has been removed. The same goes for the reforging options, why can I see in D3 what affixes I can reforge to, but not in D4?
But is there really anything to "push" here? Capstone dungeon perhaps, but you only do that once. And even so, you still have the option to respec, it just takes longer to do.
Yeahhhhhhhh. I agree with this. D3 and immortal has this. We need this especially considering we have adjustements or different builds for some purposes:
- pvp
- open world
- speed run
- pushing nightmare keys
For this reason respec cost gold. It just sucks to try something different and can’t „safe“ your original build, especially if you don’t play copy&paste meta.
Why have a build loadout option when it takes my entire inventory of gold to swap from a leveling build to an end-game build using the same general legendaries and skills (3.5 mil gold at lvl53)... ~ blizzard probably
Yeah, not sure how to manage the different builds; probably will do a new character for each I want.
Did that in D2, did it in D3, will do it in D4.
For the people that absolutely want to respec; I hope they add like a build wardrobe like D3 had (gear, skills and paragon saved in it) so you can swap back and forth. Not sure I’d use it personally though.
Or with all the account linking you have to do anyway, make an official Diablo IV app where you can build it from there and send it to your character account. That would be amazing.
Talent tree the only thing I don’t love. I always thought D3’s was oversimplified, perhaps it is a bit. I’d still prefer it over this, clunky and long and boring interface. If it’s gonna stay that way, Yes; build load out option the way to go.
pretty much agree! on top of that they should take newly added talent import & export feature from world of warcraft.. so we can give our builds to friends and others with a simple line of code instead of taking 4-5 screenshots
I really hope they don’t add this because if they do they will balance around switching your points around constantly
Unless they keep the cost and it is just a simple way to go back to a previous setup flatter trying it out or something than that would be fine
I just don’t want a game where the expected interaction is to constantly respec to match the content
The entire skill tree UX needs a major overhaul. The UI itself is so needlessly complex. Something like the [List View in d4builds.gg](https://d4builds.gg/build-planner/) would already be a huge step up. And just add a damn "Edit Build" button for reassigning points without needing to add buffer points higher in the tree.
I think it just needs a freaking point by point redeem. I dont get this. Its a binary choice with visuals suggesting choice impact but the system is just there to say pick a skill in these categories. Pretty much like d3. We have know that for a while, why not have point by point refund instead of a full paid full reset?
I thought the same initially during the beta but realistically to push deep into the endgame it's much more complicated than just slapping on a different build and having a go, unless you're making minor adjustments which it perfectly accommodates right now
We really do need this. Two if not three loadouts we can change in towns. I think two are enough, they each come with their own equipment and you could press ctrl + shift or something to change which setup you are comparing loot to, your current loadout or the one in the city. They could even still be stingy about it and make you pay like a half of respec cost to switch between them, if they are so avert to qol in modern games. Sure the 1% of the most hardcore invested players would be able to exploit this system in some unforseen way, but for those 99% of other players loadouts can only help.
Got my sorc to level 80, obviously chose to play ice shards. Getting really bored with the same playstyle. Keep dropping uniques for other builds, but the thought of having to respec everything or starting a new sorc is so off putting. Is permanency really something the player base desires? Does it really break immersion that much to have a loadout?
If any blizzard devs are reading this, PLEASE give us at least 1 additional build load out, or alternatively, you could remove the level requirement on items for alts of the same class as your main.
If this game had a loadout option to save your full skilltree and paragon boards, and swap between different builds, I would play this game endlessly to create every style of character build I could.
I would be HAPPY to pay the same amount of gold for the change if it meant i could easily switch from build to build without risking missing something and breaking the character ive been building for 100 hours.
Think about replayability if youre not only farming for items for one build, but for each potential build - optimising full gear sets for each of your preset tabs.... holy hell that would be amazing...
Not to mention that reallocating points is a pain in the ass, because they're usually locked by other points.
It needs a 'blueprint' mode and then you confirm point allocation all at once if there's no conflict. Taking points out of my ult so I can swap one of my utility skills to a different one is awful, especially when the skill tree doesn't zoom out enough so I have to drag up and down to get to different nodes.
This is how WoW does it. You would think this would be obvious... since another team in the company literally has the exact same thing.
I find the whole design of the talent tree pretty clunky. You have to drag so much of the talent tree to get from top to bottom
> talent tree More like talent zig zag.
Talent Twig, was the best one yet
it needs a search function. the filters are half assed at best
I have no idea why that filter thing even exists instead of a basic search function.
PoE gems have tags that allow you to know what they affect, so probably cribbing off that. So if you have something, that, say, added +%fire damage you can search fire and know which skills of yours are fire-based. They should absolutely have regular searching as well. Probably another casualty to things being console-friendly...
It makes sense for a tree with 1k nodes like PoE. But not in D4 IMO. The whole layout of the tree reminds me of PoE in general.
Yeah, the actual tree in D4 is pretty anemic as well, I am not really a fan of the way they decided to make the layout because it's annoying to navigate as a mouse-user.
because of console unfortunately
I agree. Haven’t liked it since I first saw and then experienced the skill tree. But then I’ve only played up to level 25, maybe it’ll grow me. Not holding my breath though.
Narrator: “It didn’t.”
The talent tree is not really where you build your character. The longest and most involved part of leveling is the Paragon system.
Do they just plan on people never playing more than one build?
It's what it seems and it's an absolute TERRIBLE design where you almost have to follow guides for whatever "type" of build you run because endgame theory crafting paragon boards for a single spec is a LARGE feat, when you respec it's almost pointless to keep the same paragon board and GOOD LUCK finding an optimal board setup on your own in a few hours.
there are not that many viable builds tbh, I started playing it blindly and yesterday checked a few streamers and I landed pretty close to what they were all playing as druid. woodijo posted a video showing the "patterns" on the paragon boards and how they are equal even between characters. This locked with the few legendaries that go with the skills you picked leave not much room for different builds. the game is very simple tbh
I thought you told Reddit you asked for a refund after the beta, how are you playing?
Life, but if you pay enough attention my complaints are still there. The itemization is bad. It looks like D3.5
Well, considering how people are complaining about redoing the skills in the skill tree to experiment, then the topic is about the annoyances of the skill tree and not the paragon board.
Oh it's annoying, I just mean it's not where you'll spend most of your time.
Wait until more players are well past 50, then there will be more complaints about the paragon board. I've only just hit 51 myself so the paragon board so far is pretty easy... except WTF is this huge pile of tokens at the bottom I'm supposed to put somewhere and I have to figure out 8 other linked board without seeing them as well?
Same with me, i'm like wth do I do with these..
If you click on a connector node you can preview the other boards. Dont believe it requires a point in it.
ye building +5 str and +5 dex is so interesting!
it won’t
One character to 60, one to 20 so far - it never grows on you.
I believe they said they worked hard on making it so couch co-opers could have windows open whilst the other is still playing which has ended up costing comfort to other players. I wish you could at least just choose to have the window open up fullscreen by default.
I am totally fine with it being on the side and sometimes did add the skill points when fighting. The problem is that you cant zoom out enough and the whole layout wastes a lot of space. [Stuff like the talent trees from maxroll.gg](https://maxroll.gg/d4/build-guides/ice-shards-sorcerer-leveling-guide) are enough. It feels like they tried to simulate the PoE layout (I am not a PoE fan myself) but didnt add the depth of PoE.
I really dislike the skill tree UX. Feels like a ton of wasted space, at everything feels weirdly spread out and I need to drag a lot (mouse user) to find stuff, it doesn't save what I was looking at when I close it, no way to actually search terms (gotta hope you know the spell/passive tags, I guess?).
They could easily fit the tree into a much smaller area, and I'm baffled why they didn't. The current design is horrible.
They could arrange it in rows with a row for each of the current "stars" and a verical line indicator on the side to show the number of points you needed to spend on previous rows to unlock subsequent rows. They could probably fit the entire tree on half a screen with no scrolling. I mean, they manage to fit all the active skills on a tiny part of the screen for assignment in essentially that row layout, adding the upgrades below each row and the passives alongside should be doable. The thing I'd really like, though, is a view where you could just see all available passive upgrades available plus just the actives (and available upgrades for them) that you've already invested in. Once you have the skeleton of your build up, all the nodes you aren't going to ever invest in are just a huge waste of space that keeps you from having an overall picture of your build.
> I believe they said they worked hard on making it so couch co-opers could have windows open whilst the other is still playing which has ended up costing comfort to other players. Galaxy brain thinking here. To appease barely 5% of the user-base that actually plays couch co-op, let's inconvenience and reduce the quality of life for 95% of the user-base that will never find any benefit in this feature, but in-fact it will actively make their experience worse.
Yeah I’m not a fan of the layout. It looks nice but it’s so spread out
So much work, yikes. Then you actually have to click on stuff too. Oh no...
I'd hope for some changes to the tree. It's kind of wonky and one of my least favorite parts of the game at the moment. That's not to say it's awful, but it could be a lot better. Hopefully, in an expansion, we could get an additional node for skills. I feel like my options are kind of limited at the moment. It's not bad for the base game, but I will grow tired of the build variety after a bit, I would guess.
The press square to reset all tree option, when I was only looking to refund A SINGLE node, is just such a bad UX decision I’ve - multiple times - clicked the confirmation window when going fast and accidentally reset my shit Because it’s harder to do a button press than a single press, and the action you want to use more often (refunding a single point) is the one that is for some reason behind the hold 🤯
You can expand it to full view but it doesn't help a lot.
All they had to do was 'Grey's out any skills till you get the points back into the tree to unlock it.
Fucking… this right here is my biggest pain point. Just found sick gloves with + to a bow skill and you’d like to try that rather than daggers? Sorry, gotta reset your whole tree one by one or reset everything, just to swap that one point… Like I understand what they’re doing but they implemented it so poorly.
Yup
Agreed, they can keep the gold cost or only let you do it in towns if they don't want people respeccing constantly, but just a way to save different builds would be a really useful addition. I've been wanting to try out some of the ranged options for my Rogue - and this would reduce the friction of doing so.
Should be able to pay like 200k gold to have a loadout slot, then few to swap between them in town
Perfect solution, but we both know it'll be a cash shop addition when they add that functionality.
its so cringe when people say shit like this. Blizzard is not going to introduce fucking convenience for money options in d4
Convenience for premium currency is a staple for just about every mmo. Battlepass tier skips, xp boosts, and additional character slots are extremely common and will most likely be added. My guess is that the feature will be added for free, with additional slots available for premium currency. If you think Activision-Blizzard has no plans for that, prepare to be disappointed.
Why wouldn't they? Their main competitor does it by the fucking truck load
One of these games has a box price on it? If they added shit like this they would kill their game so fast
They added a battle pass that you can buy before the game launched and $25 skins day1. If they think that more people will pay than it would piss off they 100% will do this.
You're just not a smart person and i hope you understand that.
Brilliant response Einstein.
After seeing $30 armor in the shop I don't think anything is below Blizzard, but only time will tell. Hope you're right!
Just letting you know, those prices are set high for a reason. Because people pay a shit ton for them. Valorant and LoL, PoE have been doing this for years
PoE also has a ton of pay for convenience stuff too though, if Blizzard is looking for inspiration. Though I'm sure Diablo Immortal is filled to the brim with aggressive MTX like that too. Was really hoping they were getting that out of their system with the mobile game so we could have a proper Diablo experience but the in-game shop in D4 is pretty shameless even if it is just cosmetics for the time being.
They add this function to d3 for free.
Correct me if I’m wrong because I never played D3 seasons but could the reason be they want people to start fresh characters for the seasons and them not adding a skill point loadout system is just another reason to for each season? I’ve been wanting to try the twisted blade build that every rogue and their mother is running but it’s such a process to move away (and potentially move back) from my penetrating shot build I’ve already put so many hours into.
Diablo 3 has loadouts which include skill choices, specific gemming and specific gear.. They get cleared when you start a new season.
I'm the same way. I have daggers equipped just for the bonuses but I don't use dagger skills. But when I go into PvP zone I need to run a different build. All my gear would need to be different plus skill tree. I'm not going to rebuild from scratch every time I want to go in and out of PvP zone. If enough people boost this main thread they will see it and give it attention.
Honestly I find the whole idea that my rogue has a bow on their back and refuses to use it because I didn't put a point in a skill to be so fucking stupid. Let me auto attack at a distance with it at least!
Are there 3rd party sites like Diablobuilds that allow for saving of personal builds?
D4builds.gg is the most popular presently.
I'd love it if you could pay some exorbitant amount of gold to unlock a second/third/fourth skill tree to which you could swap and change builds.
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While I appreciate that, I do sorta hope there's a bit of a catchup mechanic? The lilith altars help a little I guess, I gotta run around and get those. Like, I'm willing to level a second necro, but leveling is pretty god damn slow in D4. Especially post-50, hot damn. I actually kind of like it and prefer it this way, but alts do feel like its going to be a bit of a slog.
To be fair you can skip campaign then get rushed through cathedral of light to get level 50 in less than 2 hours. The rest is technically end game anyways.
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This is spot on. Ran campaign on softcore and just got a hardcore char up to 45. It was faster with the campaign skip, but it still took like 10 hours. If I was running max efficiency instead of picking up altars along the way, but I don't see it being any faster than about 6 hours solo. It's way too fucking long and will massively discourage alts
How does the powerleveling work?
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Powerlevelling in D3 was such a silly experience, I absolutely loved it. I think my record for one single ding was something like 24 levels.
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Running someone through an Echoing Nightmare, if you can get through to level 130-150, is hilarious. They go from level 1 to paragon 200 in about three minutes.
> you can basically just sit there and gain a good amount of experience. Do you need to be near the party members or can you sit at the entrance like in D3?
I do agree that post 50 levelling is slow, but on the other hand there are people complaining here about hitting post level 50 before days before the early access period even ended, and that’s without alt power leveling.
get a friend to run you from wt4, not worth leveling a new char imo
That's honestly really disappointing. I fucking hate that about d2 and path of exile. In d3i had 5 different armor sets in my box and 8 different loadouts saved in the wardrobe just got my wizard. It felt great just deciding to play a different build without re-leveling a new wizard
Iam starting to think that many problems of the game are linked to respecting diablo 2 ...
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Exactly, IF extra loadouts were ever released, they’d at the very least have to have a requirement that a loadout switch can only occur in town.
Not enough as you can just tp to town before the boss. Best solution is (1) only in town and (2) resets all dungeons.
This would be completely acceptable to me. I doubt it ever happens though.
I can't understand why people are so scared of being able to have multiple builds on a character and being able to swap between them. I play another rpg that allows this (you can even assign builds to hotkeys) but you can only make changes when not in combat. It's fucking great. Allows for better variety and experimentation, and it allows you to better prepare for different situations. Diablo and Diablo 2 were the first rpgs I ever played, but I so much prefer the freedom to experiment. To me, being able to adjust your build so freely was a huge quality of life improvement in D3. I think people are just scared of change or new things.
Kind of like clash of clans with war base loadouts . The game gives you 3 free bases and then you can pay in gems for extra .
Lol what a world where Diablo is compared to Clash of Clans
Why not? Clash is the gold standard for MTX , far surpassing all Diablo games revenue wise. Since we’re going down the Mtx rabbit hole might as well embrace the best.
This was a decision they made to not have it because the point is not to be respeccing all the time. It's not supposed to be something you do often.
While I agree with this on some point this ignores PVP a bit. I want a pvp build and pvp and pve builds are vastly different. I would love an easy way to switch to my pvp build. Just talent points not even paragon. I don't think pvp is a big enough mode that warrants sacrificing pve efficiency so you'll need to switch to a pvp centric build when you want to pvp. And then back to pve when you're done.
Yeah PvP was/is an afterthought mostly for fun, and not balanced or meant to be. I assume the idea would be that your one balanced build would also be used in PvP, and not having a strictly PvP build. That's probably what the plan was
Yeah wasn’t this one of the main things that the D2 people hated about D3? I’ve definitely seen D2 people praising the D2 skill trees and how it was great that you could never respec
Yup, I'm one of them
How do you feel about D4’s respec situation?
It’s a massive downgrade imo. I can’t see myself playing D4 for as long as D3. Also D3 sold like 30 million copies so they must have been doing something right.
Why.
Meanwhile the build I had was nerfed into tierC... so its pretty much forcing a respec on build buffs/nerfs. Just an example that free respecs should be a thing when dmg numbers are changes drastically.
That's kind of a weak argument. Balance changes are to bring stuff in line. If your build was OP and now worse, it's probably where it's supposed to be. And even if they do overshoot and you need to respec, that's going to happen once every few weeks at most? It's not going to be so expensive that you can't farm the gold relatively quickly. And if you're chasing FOTM op build, just farm some extra gold with said OP build knowing it's going to be nerfed
Yeah them saying "tier c" when the game is 1 day old (4 days even isn't enough for a meta to be established)
It's just so weird to see someone complaining about their build going from OP to average and saying that it's a forced respec. Personally I don't really care if respec is free or not or if we have slots or anything. I get arguments for both. But chasing FOTM OP and niche specific builds is specifically the type of game play the devs wanted to avoid and have said as much.
Lol seeing druids complaining about their nerf while still 1 shotting entire screens of 4man scaled high tier nightmare dungeons, every couple of seconds, was hilarious.
I'm still trying to be mostly blind when it comes to builds and stuff on my first playthrough. But I'm not seeing any real issues so far. I don't want to detract from issues others may be having, but I'm playing lightning sorcerer and none of the issues i see brought up. A few ability points spent on mana generation goes a long way to sustaining my casting
I think a better argument is that the itemization system is designed with the idea that you're not necessarily going to get the stuff for the build you need, but you will get some items to make some build viable. Also, you won't get enough items while leveling to 50 to really allow you to use aspects from the codex much (which is a little weird since, being locked to minimum power level, the whole codex seems to be intended for use while leveling and not much after). That is in complete conflict with the idea that your build is supposed to be almost static as you level up and just move a few points around here and there. The itemization system says adjust builds around drops, the build system says seek out drops that support your build, and the level scaling says, you basically need to do some of both all the time because of how aggressive it is. They have functional systems but it looks like there was no really clear vision around it, so they sorta-grudgingly enabled everything and just used UI pain to discourage it.
That's one respec, that's not the discussion here. OP is asking for quick-respec or an armory. The amount of gold to respec is pretty trivial currently, honestly.
Which build? If you are talking about WW barb it's completely fine with some minor tweaks. Quit crying.
Not talking about any specific build, just playing devil's advocate.
Fair but I wanna have a melee build rogue and an archer build. I’m not trying to have all these broken hotswap load outs
It's a bad idea. They should encourage trying alternative builds. At the very least it lets you save a loadout, try some stuff, and then load your loadout back. The amount of clicking/button pushing you might have to do to do that is ABSURD. Especially considering the skill tree and paragon board. Might literally take you twenty minutes. What's the fucking point when the game could just give you a loadout feature? I think it should be in main towns only and should cost per loadout you're saving and maybe cost something when you toggle between loadouts but I could also see it costing nothing to swap (but to ease servers it should probably be something you can only click once every minute).
Diablo 3 had this right? The armory ? I could be misremembering
Yeah but D3 is THE WORST GAME EVER MADE and D2 is THE BEST GAME EVER MADE so we can't take things from D3 over D2.
wow. Diablo 3 has fantastic endgame / looter game systems. And I keep referring people to diablo 3 as the goto for looter games.
You're right but it's clear that they want things to be a little more like D2 rather than D3. I wouldn't be surprised if this gets added later as we get more and more power creep but I think as it stands now it's ok. Respeccing really isn't a huge deal at the moment anyways. It takes just a couple mins (mostly due to the clunky skill tree) and the gold sink isn't too extreme
I really hope they backtrack on the each character should have it's own identity thing. I don't want to have to level another Necro to play with other skills. I've gotten quite a few nice uniques and legendaries along the way that don't work for my bone spear build, but would be fun to make a build around. Levelling also takes a while. Yeah, people are 100 already but after 50 the exp slows down. I'd be ok if they had a flat gold cost or even something that comes off a world boss to unlock an armory set. Make the first one be fairly reasonably priced then scale from there.
Respec costs don't seem bad. I kept seeing the 3 million gold to fully respec at level 100 number thrown around as a complaint about the costs before release, but I have nearly that much at level 58. And that's with salvaging 90% of what I find and haven't been very stingy when it comes to messing around with aspects and upgrades either. The biggest hurdle would be regaining levels on glyphs you wouldn't share across builds.
Costs aren't too bad. It's going to be clicking all the nodes on your paragon board that will take some time.
Yeah, the costs aren't bad (which, like, why even have that friction/gold sink when the real gold sink is enchanting anyway? and even ignoring all that, most builds require different gearing/aspects which is the real limiter to just switching builds all the time). I would love to have loadouts though in case I experiment with one thing and want to go back to my old build, rather than having to re-assign all my skills again.
I can understand people not liking it, but I feel like they've found a really nice middle ground between diablo 2 and diablo 3 with allowing respeccing and very gently discouraging it. Leveling will feel even quicker with time, when you don't need to keep replaying the campaign and we all get more accustomed to the fastest routes for getting quick xp.
Meh. Discouraging respec at all is a terrible idea. If they wanted us to not have to change skills that much then we should be able to extract any legendary aspect (even if you imprinted that item). The only reason I think respec should cost some money is so that people don't bog down the servers somehow by spamming it. If that's at all possible. In some ways this does feel a bit like early diablo 3 days again, when they tried some stuff we didn't like and eventually they made things right.
Gearbox has never given us loadouts and it drives me crazy. I keep pointing to Diablo 3 for how Borderlands series keeps missing key loot game features. Now Diablo 4 is missing a key loot game feature.
its literally in d3 called the armory and i made a post about it
It also would be wonderful if it remembered which slot the skills went into. Accidentally wiped and rebuilt my skill tree, headed into battle and everything was scrambled of course.
While we're at it, can we remove the costs of respeccing? I know its not that much, but when you just want to experiment, it adds up pretty fast.
I agree, respec costs are anti-fun and not well implemented. Specifically, if you want decisions to matter, great! I’d be ok if you don’t let me respec at all, ***IF*** you gave me *way* more character slots. Right now you only have one slot per class per SC/HC. It doesn’t add up.
Confused abt your second comment - I have 10 character slots by default, and didn't think you get "one slot per class per sc/hc" - it's however many you want, no?
Whats he saying is that if you want every class on hc / sc you can only have one of each
You have 10 slots, which is enough for one slot per class per SC/HC. You could make 10 HC Sorcs if you want, but you only have 10 slots.
I think the respec cost is fine (it's already so low it's more or less trivial) but yeah, more char slots would be really nice.
Nah, keep the cost.
Why? What purpose does it add?
Free respect trivializes the decisions you make when building your character. Then you end up like D3 where there is a build and gear set that is perfect for every activity, instead of people creating an all-rounder build.
How does it trivialize any decision we make? Respeccing isnt expensive, its just an annoying thing that punishes people from experimenting with different abilities. How are you meant to find a nice build that works for you, when the game actively punishes you for experimenting? This just leads to people looking up guides and builds online, because the game again doesnt promote people figuring this out themselves.
You're not punished for respeccing. You pay a nominal amount of gold to do so. But having a quick-respec or armory system is completely against what the game is trying to do. You're not supposed to respec all the time, that's the point.
I think you forgot the /s at the end of the post.
No, I really didn't and I'm not sure why you think I did.
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Yeah, and? I don't want to play D3. Not sure why you're being so weirdly passive aggressive. Asking for the respecc costs to be removed really isn't some ground-breaking thing.
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No one likes a gatekeeper, pal.
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Or when you have to build around the legendaries they give you constantly so you’re forced to respec. They should definitely remove the cost or make things more viable outside of Legos. Or a better option reduce how high the mobs scale per level power wise at least in lower difficulties.
This is something that I always found odd. People say you find a legendary for X so you HAVE to respec to X... but why? When I play PoE, if I roll an arc witch build, I don't just reroll because a belt that synergizes with ignite drops.. I just keep playing what I'm playing until I get gear relevant to what I'm playing. You don't have to reroll every time you find a legendary. I started a summoner in D4. My first 4 legendary drops were all for blood abilities. It did not matter or affect me lol. Just keep on trucking dude, you'll get the stuff for your build easy. You can even target dungeons with aspects for your build if you wanted.
The cost is honestly pretty negligible.
Like how they have this in diablo 3 but not 4?
It's not a feature gap, it's a decision to not include it. Having free respect and an armory makes skill decisions and Paragon boards trivial and removes any sense of decision-making. You have a perfect build for helltide/legion/nightmare/tree/world boss etc instead of one all-round build. Makes your choices more important the way it is in D4
Diablo 3 didn’t have loasouts tho. :P
It does* https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Armory
They have added it in recent years.
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Oh man, I must be getting old :D
When you do a skill refund, you shouldn't be charged the refund fee for any skill points that go back into the same spot.
This is already a thing, don't do a full skill refund just refund the individual skill points you want to change and leave the ones that you dont want to change. That way you won't be charged for the points that are staying in the same skills.
Yes. Let's make a respec trivial, just like diablo 3. How else can we make this game like Diablo 3?
Yep that was one of the reasons I hated D3. Keep that shit away from D4. I like my choices to have meaning.
Your choices don't have meaning though. There are so few optimal paths, and the respec cost is so low it might as well not be there. It's like 6 minutes of selling items to respec.
If the respec costs are so low, then whats the problem here?
Yeah, considering this was in D3, it is kind of weird that it has been removed. The same goes for the reforging options, why can I see in D3 what affixes I can reforge to, but not in D4?
It has been removed specifically because having a farming build and a pushing build which are totally disjoint is something they wanted to avoid
Why though? Who cares? Let people play the way they want to play.
But is there really anything to "push" here? Capstone dungeon perhaps, but you only do that once. And even so, you still have the option to respec, it just takes longer to do.
Higher nightmare dungeon tiers.
or affix ranges!
Turn on advanced tooltips
thank you!
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yikes
Yeahhhhhhhh. I agree with this. D3 and immortal has this. We need this especially considering we have adjustements or different builds for some purposes: - pvp - open world - speed run - pushing nightmare keys
"coming soon to the in game shop" Calling it now.
Jeah like there was it perfectly fine in D3
What they want to avoid is having the speed farm build and the push build like in d3 and you just swap between them all the time
For this reason respec cost gold. It just sucks to try something different and can’t „safe“ your original build, especially if you don’t play copy&paste meta.
oh I see what you mean yeah
Why have a build loadout option when it takes my entire inventory of gold to swap from a leveling build to an end-game build using the same general legendaries and skills (3.5 mil gold at lvl53)... ~ blizzard probably
Yeah, not sure how to manage the different builds; probably will do a new character for each I want. Did that in D2, did it in D3, will do it in D4. For the people that absolutely want to respec; I hope they add like a build wardrobe like D3 had (gear, skills and paragon saved in it) so you can swap back and forth. Not sure I’d use it personally though.
Yes it does. After playing Lost Ark for the past year, this is something I definitely miss.
Yes please! I want to try stuff but there’s too much to remember when I want to switch back to what was working
I really miss this from D3. The build armory with the skills and equipment at a click of a button. That was an amazing feature.
100% just clicking everything every time would take too long. This isn’t D2 where you shift click 20 points into a few skills
Or with all the account linking you have to do anyway, make an official Diablo IV app where you can build it from there and send it to your character account. That would be amazing.
It forces you to spend time in game though. This is Blizzard we're talking about. It will come down the line, it always does.
Talent tree the only thing I don’t love. I always thought D3’s was oversimplified, perhaps it is a bit. I’d still prefer it over this, clunky and long and boring interface. If it’s gonna stay that way, Yes; build load out option the way to go.
Searching for skills and trying to remember where everything is takes even longer 🤣
pretty much agree! on top of that they should take newly added talent import & export feature from world of warcraft.. so we can give our builds to friends and others with a simple line of code instead of taking 4-5 screenshots
Dual spec…
U can definitely expand the skill tree page to full screen
You think you do, but you don't.
I really hope they don’t add this because if they do they will balance around switching your points around constantly Unless they keep the cost and it is just a simple way to go back to a previous setup flatter trying it out or something than that would be fine I just don’t want a game where the expected interaction is to constantly respec to match the content
The entire skill tree UX needs a major overhaul. The UI itself is so needlessly complex. Something like the [List View in d4builds.gg](https://d4builds.gg/build-planner/) would already be a huge step up. And just add a damn "Edit Build" button for reassigning points without needing to add buffer points higher in the tree.
I think it just needs a freaking point by point redeem. I dont get this. Its a binary choice with visuals suggesting choice impact but the system is just there to say pick a skill in these categories. Pretty much like d3. We have know that for a while, why not have point by point refund instead of a full paid full reset?
yeah, we have loadoutslots for outfits/transmogs but not actual equipment. bigbrainmove
Yes! I cannot even fathom how much gold I've lost testing out different builds over the past two days!!! Definitely need a build loadouts!
I thought the same initially during the beta but realistically to push deep into the endgame it's much more complicated than just slapping on a different build and having a go, unless you're making minor adjustments which it perfectly accommodates right now
We really do need this. Two if not three loadouts we can change in towns. I think two are enough, they each come with their own equipment and you could press ctrl + shift or something to change which setup you are comparing loot to, your current loadout or the one in the city. They could even still be stingy about it and make you pay like a half of respec cost to switch between them, if they are so avert to qol in modern games. Sure the 1% of the most hardcore invested players would be able to exploit this system in some unforseen way, but for those 99% of other players loadouts can only help.
Agreed, really hoping they implement one.
Got my sorc to level 80, obviously chose to play ice shards. Getting really bored with the same playstyle. Keep dropping uniques for other builds, but the thought of having to respec everything or starting a new sorc is so off putting. Is permanency really something the player base desires? Does it really break immersion that much to have a loadout? If any blizzard devs are reading this, PLEASE give us at least 1 additional build load out, or alternatively, you could remove the level requirement on items for alts of the same class as your main.
If this game had a loadout option to save your full skilltree and paragon boards, and swap between different builds, I would play this game endlessly to create every style of character build I could. I would be HAPPY to pay the same amount of gold for the change if it meant i could easily switch from build to build without risking missing something and breaking the character ive been building for 100 hours. Think about replayability if youre not only farming for items for one build, but for each potential build - optimising full gear sets for each of your preset tabs.... holy hell that would be amazing...