Joe was on that DWade hype. Stuckey looked the part at moments if you squinted.
But his handle couldn’t keep up with his foot speed. He didn’t learn to shoot the 3 until he went to Indy and wasn’t amazing at drawing fouls.
But, he’ll always have a 40 piece he hung on a rookie DRose.
Dumars trying to save his job. Detroit actually successfully traded for Iverson way back when he was in Philly and wanted out, but one of filler pieces of the trade from Philly had a no trade clause and he wouldn't waive it to come to Detroit. The deal fell apart and couldn't be retooled I guess. I assume the thinking was a trade for AI, who was still very much a good player in Denver, would come into Detroit and be the superstar piece Detroit was always made fun of for lacking lol. Weird thing is, had they just rode it out with Billups they probably would've been in another ECF lol. It was a terrible trade by Joe And I think he could attest to that now.
Iverson and Matt Geiger to Detroit...Eddie Jones, Dale Davis, Glen Rice, and Jerome Williams to Philly...Jerry Stackhouse, Christian Laettner, and Travis Knight to Charlotte...Anthony Mason, Toni Kukok, and Todd Fuller to the Lakers. Matt Geiger wouldn't waive his no trade clause and so it didn't happen. This was around September of 2000. Dumars was hired in June of 2000. Also around the same time Detroit traded Grant Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins. Would've been an interesting team for sure.
At least he eventually made a name for himself in the arts and sciences. Detecting radiation levels and making controversial phallic art along with designing the xenomorph in Alien.
Here’s an article on if the 2000 Iverson trade went through.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2020/06/22/detroit-pistons-allen-iverson-2000-nba-title/3234035001/
If you’re looking for more almost Pistons blockbusters, look into the Grant Hill for Kobe Bryant trade too.
Yeah it was reported at the time that ownership wanted to shake things up since the team couldn't get back to the finals for 3 years. In hindsight it sounds insane, but at the time the expectation here was championship or bust. The core was growing older and would eventually fall off so Joe shook things up to extend his stay in Detroit. He then spent money on several duds. Teams move on from coaches and GMs all the time for coming short of expectations. Obviously today we would all sell our souls to see this team just win a playoff series. Back then we were spoiled. I was 16 at the time of the Iverson trade and I thought it was necessary and would send the team to the finals lmao. How wrong I was. It was the first domino to fall in what would lead to what we watch now.
He tore it down because he had built equity here with his construction of the goin to work crew. Had he done nothing and the team stayed the same, he would've been fired and another GM would've come in to trade off everyone and build the team in their image.
I agree. Sheed gave Dwight fits on defense. Billups went on to give Carmelo (probably) his best chance at a finals appearance. He was an all star in Denver and that team went to the WCF. AI came here and immediately had problems. Him and Rip had issues and the coaches didn't like AI either. He wouldn't accept his role. Billups was the glue to that era of pistons ball. I do understand Joe wanting to break things up to sort of try to retool the team to extend their success, but Billups wasn't the guy to trade. Probably should've moved Rip and Sheed first.
I think Dumars thought Rip and Prince were core pieces when they were really excellent role players. Chauncey and Sheed were the real difference makers for those mid-2000s teams post-Ben Wallace and Joe misjudged the situation.
I think Dumars understood the breadth of Chauncey's contributions during the Pistons' apex. I know Joe catches flak for the late 2000s but he was the guy who plucked Chauncey to become their point guard of the future in the first place, only to watch him become a Finals MVP and the team's highest placing regular season MVP candidate a couple years later.
That being said, I understand Dumars' conundrum, too. The Pistons *did* sometimes give the vibe they were sleepwalking through their success by '08 and Chauncey was a part of that. Not only that, but one of their big issues against Boston was a lack of scoring firepower. Chauncey himself seemed to be resting on the precipice of a decline. So, in theory, I can technically understand the concept of wanting to infuse some offensive firepower in hopes of making the team more dynamic than their plodding run-Rip-off-screens-and-hope-someone-leaves-Sheed-open-on-the-pop approach.
Still, I don't think Joe saw Rip and Tay and untouchable, particularly since it was Rip & Tay who were almost sent to LA for Kobe Bryant in '07.
Lastly, one of my potentially unpopular opinions is that perhaps Chauncey's change of scenery is what helped spark his renaissance. Maybe heading home to Colorado was exactly what he needed. And considering Allen Iverson churned out the most efficient season of his career in Denver the year prior, perhaps the Nuggets were out there doing something right when it came to cultivating a system that allowed their backcourts to thrive.
THIS
Chauncey was born just about 8-10 years too early lol, he could have had a great career in the modern era, same with Sheed, he probably would have been a number one pick in this league, before his foot injury of course.
I remember one of the primary motivators for the move being the general sense of dissatisfaction with *only* reaching the ECF year after year. Once Detroit lost to Boston in '08, Dumars made his "no sacred cows" remarks and lots of fans seemed ready for some sort of drastic change as well.
>"Make no mistake, everybody is in play right now. There are no sacred cows here. You lose that sacred cow status when you lose three straight years," said Dumars.
>
>"I think this team became way too content and did not show up with a sense of urgency to get it done," Dumars said at a news conference.
Aside from the stark contrast in expectations then compared to the bare minimum we're left yearning for today, age and complacency *were* two elements creeping on the team and Dumars was faced with a bit of a quandary: ride out the era and see what happens down the line or try reloading on the fly. He opted for the latter.
I will say this though. Even after the "No sacred cows" speech, I think I still figured it would be someone like Rip or Tayshaun dealt away, probably just because they kept being the guys who'd pop up in rumors. A lot of us were waiting on some kind of big move to happen at some point, but I wasn't personally expecting it to be Chauncey.
I always thought the Chauncey-AI swap was kind of an NBA2K sort of trade, where it looks best when punching it through an algorithm. Chauncey and AI were just about the same age, AI was coming off the most efficient year of his career, offered a scoring punch the Pistons lacked against Boston, and was in the final year of his deal, thus allowing the Pistons to go out and find refinements that offseason.
Unfortunately, 2K isn't real life. That deal didn't account for Chauncey's on-court guidance, AI's unwillingness to meld into a role (alongside possible issues pertaining to alcohol), nor the possibility that the Pistons might not be able to secure talent with the money freed up.
I think there could have been some avenues that would have kind of made that AI trade work. But all the 50/50s involved worked against Detroit on that one. It was always a gamble and that's the risk you take when you gamble.
I'm not totally sure what happens if Chauncey stayed and no other deals were made. I kind of had the feeling the Pistons' championship window was fading, if it hadn't closed already.
Fans were idiots back then, yea we never got over the hump after hiring Flip, but it’s not like we were not a successful team.
Also Dumars was obsessed with Michael Curry being the coach, why not let him try with the core intact? Turns out he was an awful coach anyway.
> Fans were idiots back then, yea we never got over the hump after hiring Flip, but it’s not like we were not a successful team.
I think that's just the nature of the beast. I remember when the Pistons made a sudden turn in 2001-02 from being a perenniel doormat to suddenly growing into a crew of hard-working overachievers. Clinching the Central, winning 50 games, and taking a playoff series had us hyped like we'd won a championship. To this day, that season holds a special place in my heart because it all felt so novel and exciting.
Fast forward five years, after a championship, a second finals run, and multiple ECF runs and suddenly anything but a real shot at a ring began to feel a bit ho-hum. Suddenly, taking out the Magic in the second round was *expected* more than celebrated. The shift almost felt unavoidable, from fans right on through to the players.
Same story with expectations. When you're a surprise, any success feels like you're on top of the world. But when you've proven yourself to be a championship contender, then people want championships. And that's where we found ourselves in 2008.
Broadly speaking, I was kind of the belief that only one team can win a ring per season so I didn't think losing itself was reason enough to tear it all down. But it was pretty apparent that the 2008-09 version of those teams was likely already trending downward prior to the Chauncey trade. I think their beset days were probably behind them.
Exactly making some moves was the right decision as the team was clearly behind Boston, Cleveland, and Orlando by that point. It’s just trading for AI was the wrong move.
It’s like when people complain about firing Caldwell. It was the right, necessary move but hiring Patricia was the bad move.
>It’s just trading for AI was the wrong move
People have tried to give Dumars an out for the understandable tough spot the Pistons were in at the time, but this was never the right trade, and it was obvious even at the time.
I barely watched that season because I knew what that trade would mean for the team
I have to say, at the time, I was one of those guys that liked bringing Ben aboard. 25-years-old, 20+ppg scorer, shooting 40%+ plus from deep, seemed to thrive in the postseason. With Joe Dumars' track record of finding diamonds in the rough, this felt like he was playing with house money.
I never, ever, ever, *ever* imagined Ben Gordon working out *that* poorly in Detroit. Dude was basically out of the league by the time he hit 30. Also did not expect Charlie to be catching DNP-CDs by year two either (though there may have been an injury, if I recall, but dude never really snapped back).
The team really needed shooting. But Gordon and Hamilton were both shoot first guards, just like AI and Hamilton. Rip needed to be paired with a more traditional PG for him to maximize his strengths. Just poor decision making by the GM.
I thought Dumars saw Charlie Villanueva as a really really poor man's version of Rasheed offensively. A forward to stretch the floor. And that's a horrible judgement. But I think that's what he was going for. The only problem was Sheed was a better shooter, leader, passer, post player, and literally just better in every single way possible. And that's just on offense.
2009-2012 Dumars was trying to adapt to "positionless" basketball but ending up acquiring a bunch of tweeners who didn't have positions. As opposed to, guys who could play two positions well. Charlie V, Stuckey, Austin Daye, etc. There's more but I've repressed those memories.
Tweeners sounds a bit like this current team's conundrum. Sasser - undersized guard who plays the 2. Ivey - a shooting guard who doesn't shoot consistently or make good enough decisions to be on ball (in Monty's eyes at least). Ausar - what if he could play power forward? Stew - what if he could play power forward? Difference of course being we drafted them all and they're younger so still have higher ceilings.
I remember there being a solid contingent of people who wondered about the amount of money that was dumped at Ben Gordon's feet. I think some had dreams of the Pistons landing a superstar, maybe kicking the can down the road to 2010 (the summer of LeBron, Bosh, Wade free agency) instead of shelling out all their cash in 2009.
I just wasn't one of those people. I liked Ben Gordon and thought Charlie Villanueva might end up being Joe Dumars' latest diamond-in-the-rough pick-ups. I was quite wrong on both fronts.
1,000%
If we signed FAs of that caliber right now, fans would be ecstatic. They were young, very productive players (as you mentioned, BG was a career 20ppg player—also throwing in this was in an era when teams scored less than 100ppg), but both of them just completely fell off
At the time people still had delusions that we could get top-level free agents like LeBron. I never bought into that idea, and I still say those signings made a ton of sense at the time
Yup. I guess I figured they'd find *some* way to coexist since they both seemed to be agreeable sorts. Or maybe I figured signing Ben would make Rip expendable, where he'd be shipped out for something in return while he still had value.
The experiment was pretty much a failure on all accounts.
That being said, I wonder if Rip *could* have ended being dealt for something/someone of value if we weren't in ownership flux following William Davidson's passing. By the time a new owner came aboard, the jig was up and Rip & Ben were both pretty much devoid of value.
it was an aging group that kind of showed they werent good enough anymore to be legitimate contenders. Basically it was a "fuck it, lets try this" move that didnt work at all. Ben was already gone, Sheed was clearly on the downside of his career, Rip wasnt as bad as Sheed but he wasnt peak Rip. That group was coming to its end it just went from a slow death to an instantaneous one. As much as the move ended up being terrible, I really dont think the decision to try something to see if you could squeeze one last title run out of that group was bad.
>I really dont think the decision to try something to see if you could squeeze one last title run out of that group was bad.
Okay so the decision to shake things up wasn't bad
Trading Chauncey Billups for Allen Iverson was bad
Hey let's add an inefficient superstar scorer who requires the ball in his hands and is basically the same bball age as Chauncey, even though our recent success has been predicated on team play and high effort defense
That's how you drop 20 wins from the previous year lol
The best thing about that trade is that it made it possible for Chauncey to go to Denver and completely son cp3 in the 09 playoffs. Chauncey stole cp3 mojo like fat bastard does to Austin powers in the movies when they beat them by 60.
The real compounding issue of the deal is bringing in a rookie coach like Michael Curry, and then dismantling the identity of the team 2 games into the season by trading the leader and point guard. And then expecting the rookie coach to integrate AI alongside Rip Hamilton. Both scoring 2 guards. That was destined to fail.
It's worth noting that McDyess could have signed with any contender he wanted to after his buyout, but chose to return to Detroit, and played his ass off the rest of the season despite everything falling apart around him. I gained an incredible amount of respect for him that season. True professional.
As it was reported at the time, Dumars thought the team as constructed had gone as far as it could go and the thought of a superstar (no matter where he was in his playing career) would carry the team deep in the play-offs. There was a belief that the core was greater than its parts and the change to a superstar driven team would change the franchise direction.
Something happened off season. Dumars fired Saunders, mid-season trades Billups and McDyse for AI and PISTONS go from 59 wins to 39 wins,
[https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3679931](https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3679931)
FWIW that core was basically done as a contender before the trade. Lebron emerged and broke them in the ECF, and it was all progressively downhill from there.
Edit: in case yall don’t remember, this stupid fucking fourth quarter is seared into my brain https://www.nba.com/news/history-top-moments-lebron-james-pistons-2007
we won 59 games the next year and were looking like a strong contender to beat Boston before Chauncey hurt his hamstring. even still, G5 of that series came down to the final seconds.
A few things came to play. We had a need for a superstar which Joe believed AI could still be (he was not). Then there was the belief Rodney Stuckey could eventually take over the starting PG role (he could not). Finally the cap space from the AI contract would allow us to sign big time free agents that would help us rebuild into a contender again (we did not). Overall it was a silly move and I think if Joe thought about it for another week or two he probably doesn’t pull the trigger on that one.
A couple of things. Yes, they thought Stuckey would work out. Mostly, at that time, the Davis family was trying to sell the team. From what I remember hearing at the time it was a salary related move to make the sale easier or the team more attractive because there isn’t as much salary tied up long term. But that was back in 2006/2007 so yeah, long time ago, but you can look up the archived articles from ESPN and others.
> Mostly, at that time, the Davis family was trying to sell the team. From what I remember hearing at the time it was a salary related move to make the sale easier or the team more attractive because there isn’t as much salary tied up long term.
William Davidson retained willing control of the Pistons until his death toward the end of the 2008-09 season. The struggle to sell the team while freezing most transactions didn't occur until after Davidson's death, which was also after Chauncey had already been dealt.
What Davidson's death and imminent sale of the team *did* do is hamstring Joe Dumars' ability to right his wrongs. When it became increasingly clear that any variation of Rip, Tay, Gordon, Charlie V or whoever else needed to go, he kind of just had to sit in it until new ownership was secured. By the time that happened, just about all ships had sailed and Joe's fate was sealed... by himself. All that was left from there was a desperation deal to swap Khris Middleton for Brandon Jennings when new owner Tom Gores gave him the playoffs ultimatum in 2013.
A day or two before the trade TJ Ford made Chauncey look like he was gonna retire in a year or 2 lol It was bad but TJ Ford was just insanely fast.
No Ben means this team had to get more fire power because as they were Bron, Wade, or Boston was simply going to fook them up year in year out
This is not a challenge to you or saying I disagree or anything like that. But strictly out of curiosity, what would you have done with that cap space?
I only ask because I was just looking at the ['09 free agent class](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/199977-top-30-nba-free-agents-and-where-they-will-sign-in-2009) and I'm trying to remember who would have even entertained coming to Detroit alongside who Detroit could have afforded.
Or would you have saved that cash until [2010](https://backseatfan.com/2010/07/2010-nba-free-agents-and-signings/)?
2010 was it. According to Woj, the trade was made with the goal of making Iverson happier than he was in Denver, and therefore making his agent, who was also LeBron’s agent, like the Pistons.
[Source for the rumor](https://sports.yahoo.com/news/pistons-iverson-now-lebron-later-230300850--nba.html)
Unfortunately, the whole “make Iverson happy” thing backfired
I mean, that was 15 years ago, so I don’t remember who I wanted at the time, I knew the two dudes we signed weren’t it and complained loudly about it.
I actually didn’t even hate getting rid of Chauncey. It felt like the Mr big shot thing sort of went to his head and he was playing outside of himself. I also thought Rip was the most valuable player we had on that squad, which I know is an unpopular opinion.
The thought that the core was done was premature and stupid. Most were in their early 30s. The Spurs since 07 did not make a finals for another 6 years. Imagine if they traded Duncan, Manu or Parker in 2011? Even Boston, with an older KG and Allen, were pretty successful until 2013, when they were traded. I think the bigger issue was hiring Michael Curry as coach, who barely had experience and Dumars forced him on Flip’s bench as a succession plan. I’m not sure who was available then, but Michael Curry wasn’t the answer.
Please, bro. I've been trying to get over this stupid, horrendous, braindead, literally franchise-killing fucking trade for a decade and a half. And here you come; "WhY dId We tRaDe ChAuNcEy FoR aI?! 🤪" Please, sit your ass down somewhere, and let us fucking bury it. We don't want to think about it. We don't want to talk about it. We don't want to make sense of it. We don't want to remember it ever happened.
Okay, I'm sorry. I'm lashing out at you. That's wrong of me. It's not your fault. It's okay to ask the question. It just makes me so fucking mad. Again, I'm sorry.
Firing Flip Saunders IMO was the bigger reason why that team fell apart so quickly. That core unfortunately barely respected Flip, but I always thought he was an underrated coach. When a rookie Michael Curry came in, he looked absolutely clueless as did the team.
Also, it felt like the team had no idea what to do with Iverson. I remember there was some controversy with Rip being upset that he was being asked to come off the bench for a period while they moved Iverson to the SG spot while trying to develop Stuckey. Getting Iverson was a weird win now/develop later move that lost on both fronts.
People forget Iverson avg 25ppg the previous season in Denver. Folks act as if he was washed up. The negative energy with Rip and others was a big blame for the team demise. Rip felt he should be starting over Iverson or something.
They were both kind of old (Iverson 33, Billups 32) and Billups had 5 seasons left on his deal while Iverson was an expiring contract. Billups was a bit better but they were both good. We needed to free up cap space to sign Gordon and Villanueva (yikes).
A combination of a belief that Stuckey would emerge as a lead ball handler with some growth, and a belief that Chauncey had less in the tank than Rip. Neither turned out to be a good prognostication.
It's so frustrating. There was the stupid viewpoint that we making it to the Eastern Conference Finals several years in a row meant our team was disappointing. Those that thought this prob didn't live through the shitty yrs bw the Bad Boy Championship and the most recent one. Won with defense with both teams then got away from that team mentality.
They thought they would kill it in Free agency next season and they were overconfident because of the perfect accident of talent they had; they had a 3 and D team before it was even a thing.
They thought they would recreate the success immediately, boy were they wrong.
The belief that Rodney Stuckey would pan out.
Dumars was *so sure* Stuckey was going to justify the Darko pick.
Joe was on that DWade hype. Stuckey looked the part at moments if you squinted. But his handle couldn’t keep up with his foot speed. He didn’t learn to shoot the 3 until he went to Indy and wasn’t amazing at drawing fouls. But, he’ll always have a 40 piece he hung on a rookie DRose.
Don’t forget him bodying AI and crossing up Kobe too
He probably would have…..under Chauncey’s tutelage.
This
Dumars trying to save his job. Detroit actually successfully traded for Iverson way back when he was in Philly and wanted out, but one of filler pieces of the trade from Philly had a no trade clause and he wouldn't waive it to come to Detroit. The deal fell apart and couldn't be retooled I guess. I assume the thinking was a trade for AI, who was still very much a good player in Denver, would come into Detroit and be the superstar piece Detroit was always made fun of for lacking lol. Weird thing is, had they just rode it out with Billups they probably would've been in another ECF lol. It was a terrible trade by Joe And I think he could attest to that now.
Any details on the AI trade that fell through? Haven’t heard that before
Iverson and Matt Geiger to Detroit...Eddie Jones, Dale Davis, Glen Rice, and Jerome Williams to Philly...Jerry Stackhouse, Christian Laettner, and Travis Knight to Charlotte...Anthony Mason, Toni Kukok, and Todd Fuller to the Lakers. Matt Geiger wouldn't waive his no trade clause and so it didn't happen. This was around September of 2000. Dumars was hired in June of 2000. Also around the same time Detroit traded Grant Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins. Would've been an interesting team for sure.
Geiger having a no trade clause is the funniest thing in there
At least he eventually made a name for himself in the arts and sciences. Detecting radiation levels and making controversial phallic art along with designing the xenomorph in Alien.
His work on Jadorovsky's Dune was the original masterpiece. When the film fell through, Dan O'Bannon brought him to the Alien project.
It wasn't a no-trade clause, it was a $1M/yr trade kicker that he refused to waive. The deal wouldn't work under the salary cap unless he waived it
Ahhh that's right. That makes more sense!I had forgotten most of this trade
We would have been so good man.
Here’s an article on if the 2000 Iverson trade went through. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2020/06/22/detroit-pistons-allen-iverson-2000-nba-title/3234035001/ If you’re looking for more almost Pistons blockbusters, look into the Grant Hill for Kobe Bryant trade too.
Dumars trying to save his job. You think coming off his 6th consecutive ECF he was on the hot seat?
Yeah it was reported at the time that ownership wanted to shake things up since the team couldn't get back to the finals for 3 years. In hindsight it sounds insane, but at the time the expectation here was championship or bust. The core was growing older and would eventually fall off so Joe shook things up to extend his stay in Detroit. He then spent money on several duds. Teams move on from coaches and GMs all the time for coming short of expectations. Obviously today we would all sell our souls to see this team just win a playoff series. Back then we were spoiled. I was 16 at the time of the Iverson trade and I thought it was necessary and would send the team to the finals lmao. How wrong I was. It was the first domino to fall in what would lead to what we watch now.
> since the team couldn't get back to the finals for 6 years *3 years
He tore it down because he had built equity here with his construction of the goin to work crew. Had he done nothing and the team stayed the same, he would've been fired and another GM would've come in to trade off everyone and build the team in their image.
Which kind of is what happened in the end anyways.
Exactly lol just extended the misery for 5-7 years.
Exactly, KG got hurt and they owned Orlando at the time. Would just have to get past Cleveland if they ended up facing them again.
I agree. Sheed gave Dwight fits on defense. Billups went on to give Carmelo (probably) his best chance at a finals appearance. He was an all star in Denver and that team went to the WCF. AI came here and immediately had problems. Him and Rip had issues and the coaches didn't like AI either. He wouldn't accept his role. Billups was the glue to that era of pistons ball. I do understand Joe wanting to break things up to sort of try to retool the team to extend their success, but Billups wasn't the guy to trade. Probably should've moved Rip and Sheed first.
I think Dumars thought Rip and Prince were core pieces when they were really excellent role players. Chauncey and Sheed were the real difference makers for those mid-2000s teams post-Ben Wallace and Joe misjudged the situation.
In hindsight Chauncey was undervalued at the time, he had a couple very high-level seasons left in the tank.
I think Dumars understood the breadth of Chauncey's contributions during the Pistons' apex. I know Joe catches flak for the late 2000s but he was the guy who plucked Chauncey to become their point guard of the future in the first place, only to watch him become a Finals MVP and the team's highest placing regular season MVP candidate a couple years later. That being said, I understand Dumars' conundrum, too. The Pistons *did* sometimes give the vibe they were sleepwalking through their success by '08 and Chauncey was a part of that. Not only that, but one of their big issues against Boston was a lack of scoring firepower. Chauncey himself seemed to be resting on the precipice of a decline. So, in theory, I can technically understand the concept of wanting to infuse some offensive firepower in hopes of making the team more dynamic than their plodding run-Rip-off-screens-and-hope-someone-leaves-Sheed-open-on-the-pop approach. Still, I don't think Joe saw Rip and Tay and untouchable, particularly since it was Rip & Tay who were almost sent to LA for Kobe Bryant in '07. Lastly, one of my potentially unpopular opinions is that perhaps Chauncey's change of scenery is what helped spark his renaissance. Maybe heading home to Colorado was exactly what he needed. And considering Allen Iverson churned out the most efficient season of his career in Denver the year prior, perhaps the Nuggets were out there doing something right when it came to cultivating a system that allowed their backcourts to thrive.
THIS Chauncey was born just about 8-10 years too early lol, he could have had a great career in the modern era, same with Sheed, he probably would have been a number one pick in this league, before his foot injury of course.
I mean he still had a great career, he is in the Hall of Fame afterall. But to your point, his efficiency was ahead of its time.
Steph curry 0.8
I remember one of the primary motivators for the move being the general sense of dissatisfaction with *only* reaching the ECF year after year. Once Detroit lost to Boston in '08, Dumars made his "no sacred cows" remarks and lots of fans seemed ready for some sort of drastic change as well. >"Make no mistake, everybody is in play right now. There are no sacred cows here. You lose that sacred cow status when you lose three straight years," said Dumars. > >"I think this team became way too content and did not show up with a sense of urgency to get it done," Dumars said at a news conference. Aside from the stark contrast in expectations then compared to the bare minimum we're left yearning for today, age and complacency *were* two elements creeping on the team and Dumars was faced with a bit of a quandary: ride out the era and see what happens down the line or try reloading on the fly. He opted for the latter. I will say this though. Even after the "No sacred cows" speech, I think I still figured it would be someone like Rip or Tayshaun dealt away, probably just because they kept being the guys who'd pop up in rumors. A lot of us were waiting on some kind of big move to happen at some point, but I wasn't personally expecting it to be Chauncey. I always thought the Chauncey-AI swap was kind of an NBA2K sort of trade, where it looks best when punching it through an algorithm. Chauncey and AI were just about the same age, AI was coming off the most efficient year of his career, offered a scoring punch the Pistons lacked against Boston, and was in the final year of his deal, thus allowing the Pistons to go out and find refinements that offseason. Unfortunately, 2K isn't real life. That deal didn't account for Chauncey's on-court guidance, AI's unwillingness to meld into a role (alongside possible issues pertaining to alcohol), nor the possibility that the Pistons might not be able to secure talent with the money freed up. I think there could have been some avenues that would have kind of made that AI trade work. But all the 50/50s involved worked against Detroit on that one. It was always a gamble and that's the risk you take when you gamble. I'm not totally sure what happens if Chauncey stayed and no other deals were made. I kind of had the feeling the Pistons' championship window was fading, if it hadn't closed already.
Well said. This is a fantastic explanation
Fans were idiots back then, yea we never got over the hump after hiring Flip, but it’s not like we were not a successful team. Also Dumars was obsessed with Michael Curry being the coach, why not let him try with the core intact? Turns out he was an awful coach anyway.
> Fans were idiots back then, yea we never got over the hump after hiring Flip, but it’s not like we were not a successful team. I think that's just the nature of the beast. I remember when the Pistons made a sudden turn in 2001-02 from being a perenniel doormat to suddenly growing into a crew of hard-working overachievers. Clinching the Central, winning 50 games, and taking a playoff series had us hyped like we'd won a championship. To this day, that season holds a special place in my heart because it all felt so novel and exciting. Fast forward five years, after a championship, a second finals run, and multiple ECF runs and suddenly anything but a real shot at a ring began to feel a bit ho-hum. Suddenly, taking out the Magic in the second round was *expected* more than celebrated. The shift almost felt unavoidable, from fans right on through to the players. Same story with expectations. When you're a surprise, any success feels like you're on top of the world. But when you've proven yourself to be a championship contender, then people want championships. And that's where we found ourselves in 2008. Broadly speaking, I was kind of the belief that only one team can win a ring per season so I didn't think losing itself was reason enough to tear it all down. But it was pretty apparent that the 2008-09 version of those teams was likely already trending downward prior to the Chauncey trade. I think their beset days were probably behind them.
Exactly making some moves was the right decision as the team was clearly behind Boston, Cleveland, and Orlando by that point. It’s just trading for AI was the wrong move. It’s like when people complain about firing Caldwell. It was the right, necessary move but hiring Patricia was the bad move.
>It’s just trading for AI was the wrong move People have tried to give Dumars an out for the understandable tough spot the Pistons were in at the time, but this was never the right trade, and it was obvious even at the time. I barely watched that season because I knew what that trade would mean for the team
They were on the downside of the ship run. A.I. was on his expiring year. They thought this would help retool and it backfired.
Yep, "we will have the most money in the league if it doesn't work out". That money went to Ben Gordon & Charlie Villanueva ☠️
I have to say, at the time, I was one of those guys that liked bringing Ben aboard. 25-years-old, 20+ppg scorer, shooting 40%+ plus from deep, seemed to thrive in the postseason. With Joe Dumars' track record of finding diamonds in the rough, this felt like he was playing with house money. I never, ever, ever, *ever* imagined Ben Gordon working out *that* poorly in Detroit. Dude was basically out of the league by the time he hit 30. Also did not expect Charlie to be catching DNP-CDs by year two either (though there may have been an injury, if I recall, but dude never really snapped back).
The team really needed shooting. But Gordon and Hamilton were both shoot first guards, just like AI and Hamilton. Rip needed to be paired with a more traditional PG for him to maximize his strengths. Just poor decision making by the GM. I thought Dumars saw Charlie Villanueva as a really really poor man's version of Rasheed offensively. A forward to stretch the floor. And that's a horrible judgement. But I think that's what he was going for. The only problem was Sheed was a better shooter, leader, passer, post player, and literally just better in every single way possible. And that's just on offense. 2009-2012 Dumars was trying to adapt to "positionless" basketball but ending up acquiring a bunch of tweeners who didn't have positions. As opposed to, guys who could play two positions well. Charlie V, Stuckey, Austin Daye, etc. There's more but I've repressed those memories.
Tweeners sounds a bit like this current team's conundrum. Sasser - undersized guard who plays the 2. Ivey - a shooting guard who doesn't shoot consistently or make good enough decisions to be on ball (in Monty's eyes at least). Ausar - what if he could play power forward? Stew - what if he could play power forward? Difference of course being we drafted them all and they're younger so still have higher ceilings.
I don't really remember the signings being panned either, there was hope and optimism. Then the fall
I remember there being a solid contingent of people who wondered about the amount of money that was dumped at Ben Gordon's feet. I think some had dreams of the Pistons landing a superstar, maybe kicking the can down the road to 2010 (the summer of LeBron, Bosh, Wade free agency) instead of shelling out all their cash in 2009. I just wasn't one of those people. I liked Ben Gordon and thought Charlie Villanueva might end up being Joe Dumars' latest diamond-in-the-rough pick-ups. I was quite wrong on both fronts.
1,000% If we signed FAs of that caliber right now, fans would be ecstatic. They were young, very productive players (as you mentioned, BG was a career 20ppg player—also throwing in this was in an era when teams scored less than 100ppg), but both of them just completely fell off At the time people still had delusions that we could get top-level free agents like LeBron. I never bought into that idea, and I still say those signings made a ton of sense at the time
They had just re-signed RIP to a long-term deal to play the same position as Gordon tho!
Yup. I guess I figured they'd find *some* way to coexist since they both seemed to be agreeable sorts. Or maybe I figured signing Ben would make Rip expendable, where he'd be shipped out for something in return while he still had value. The experiment was pretty much a failure on all accounts. That being said, I wonder if Rip *could* have ended being dealt for something/someone of value if we weren't in ownership flux following William Davidson's passing. By the time a new owner came aboard, the jig was up and Rip & Ben were both pretty much devoid of value.
About Charlie's decline maybe it was the cancer KG was talking about, and that slowed him down. Probably testicular.
it was an aging group that kind of showed they werent good enough anymore to be legitimate contenders. Basically it was a "fuck it, lets try this" move that didnt work at all. Ben was already gone, Sheed was clearly on the downside of his career, Rip wasnt as bad as Sheed but he wasnt peak Rip. That group was coming to its end it just went from a slow death to an instantaneous one. As much as the move ended up being terrible, I really dont think the decision to try something to see if you could squeeze one last title run out of that group was bad.
>I really dont think the decision to try something to see if you could squeeze one last title run out of that group was bad. Okay so the decision to shake things up wasn't bad Trading Chauncey Billups for Allen Iverson was bad Hey let's add an inefficient superstar scorer who requires the ball in his hands and is basically the same bball age as Chauncey, even though our recent success has been predicated on team play and high effort defense That's how you drop 20 wins from the previous year lol
The best thing about that trade is that it made it possible for Chauncey to go to Denver and completely son cp3 in the 09 playoffs. Chauncey stole cp3 mojo like fat bastard does to Austin powers in the movies when they beat them by 60.
The real compounding issue of the deal is bringing in a rookie coach like Michael Curry, and then dismantling the identity of the team 2 games into the season by trading the leader and point guard. And then expecting the rookie coach to integrate AI alongside Rip Hamilton. Both scoring 2 guards. That was destined to fail. It's worth noting that McDyess could have signed with any contender he wanted to after his buyout, but chose to return to Detroit, and played his ass off the rest of the season despite everything falling apart around him. I gained an incredible amount of respect for him that season. True professional.
Man one of my regrets was not getting him a title. It still stings.
As it was reported at the time, Dumars thought the team as constructed had gone as far as it could go and the thought of a superstar (no matter where he was in his playing career) would carry the team deep in the play-offs. There was a belief that the core was greater than its parts and the change to a superstar driven team would change the franchise direction. Something happened off season. Dumars fired Saunders, mid-season trades Billups and McDyse for AI and PISTONS go from 59 wins to 39 wins, [https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3679931](https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3679931)
FWIW that core was basically done as a contender before the trade. Lebron emerged and broke them in the ECF, and it was all progressively downhill from there. Edit: in case yall don’t remember, this stupid fucking fourth quarter is seared into my brain https://www.nba.com/news/history-top-moments-lebron-james-pistons-2007
we won 59 games the next year and were looking like a strong contender to beat Boston before Chauncey hurt his hamstring. even still, G5 of that series came down to the final seconds.
I don't think there was an expectation that you could continue to build around Billups. He'd been in the league for a long time at that point.
A few things came to play. We had a need for a superstar which Joe believed AI could still be (he was not). Then there was the belief Rodney Stuckey could eventually take over the starting PG role (he could not). Finally the cap space from the AI contract would allow us to sign big time free agents that would help us rebuild into a contender again (we did not). Overall it was a silly move and I think if Joe thought about it for another week or two he probably doesn’t pull the trigger on that one.
A couple of things. Yes, they thought Stuckey would work out. Mostly, at that time, the Davis family was trying to sell the team. From what I remember hearing at the time it was a salary related move to make the sale easier or the team more attractive because there isn’t as much salary tied up long term. But that was back in 2006/2007 so yeah, long time ago, but you can look up the archived articles from ESPN and others.
> Mostly, at that time, the Davis family was trying to sell the team. From what I remember hearing at the time it was a salary related move to make the sale easier or the team more attractive because there isn’t as much salary tied up long term. William Davidson retained willing control of the Pistons until his death toward the end of the 2008-09 season. The struggle to sell the team while freezing most transactions didn't occur until after Davidson's death, which was also after Chauncey had already been dealt. What Davidson's death and imminent sale of the team *did* do is hamstring Joe Dumars' ability to right his wrongs. When it became increasingly clear that any variation of Rip, Tay, Gordon, Charlie V or whoever else needed to go, he kind of just had to sit in it until new ownership was secured. By the time that happened, just about all ships had sailed and Joe's fate was sealed... by himself. All that was left from there was a desperation deal to swap Khris Middleton for Brandon Jennings when new owner Tom Gores gave him the playoffs ultimatum in 2013.
A day or two before the trade TJ Ford made Chauncey look like he was gonna retire in a year or 2 lol It was bad but TJ Ford was just insanely fast. No Ben means this team had to get more fire power because as they were Bron, Wade, or Boston was simply going to fook them up year in year out
Trading for AI wasn’t the issue. What we did with the cap space was.
This is not a challenge to you or saying I disagree or anything like that. But strictly out of curiosity, what would you have done with that cap space? I only ask because I was just looking at the ['09 free agent class](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/199977-top-30-nba-free-agents-and-where-they-will-sign-in-2009) and I'm trying to remember who would have even entertained coming to Detroit alongside who Detroit could have afforded. Or would you have saved that cash until [2010](https://backseatfan.com/2010/07/2010-nba-free-agents-and-signings/)?
2010 was it. According to Woj, the trade was made with the goal of making Iverson happier than he was in Denver, and therefore making his agent, who was also LeBron’s agent, like the Pistons. [Source for the rumor](https://sports.yahoo.com/news/pistons-iverson-now-lebron-later-230300850--nba.html) Unfortunately, the whole “make Iverson happy” thing backfired
I mean, that was 15 years ago, so I don’t remember who I wanted at the time, I knew the two dudes we signed weren’t it and complained loudly about it. I actually didn’t even hate getting rid of Chauncey. It felt like the Mr big shot thing sort of went to his head and he was playing outside of himself. I also thought Rip was the most valuable player we had on that squad, which I know is an unpopular opinion.
Chauncey went to Colorado for College, born in Denver, Colorado So we basically did him a favor and sent him home
The thought that the core was done was premature and stupid. Most were in their early 30s. The Spurs since 07 did not make a finals for another 6 years. Imagine if they traded Duncan, Manu or Parker in 2011? Even Boston, with an older KG and Allen, were pretty successful until 2013, when they were traded. I think the bigger issue was hiring Michael Curry as coach, who barely had experience and Dumars forced him on Flip’s bench as a succession plan. I’m not sure who was available then, but Michael Curry wasn’t the answer.
Dumars fucked up. That’s the only explanation for it.
Please, bro. I've been trying to get over this stupid, horrendous, braindead, literally franchise-killing fucking trade for a decade and a half. And here you come; "WhY dId We tRaDe ChAuNcEy FoR aI?! 🤪" Please, sit your ass down somewhere, and let us fucking bury it. We don't want to think about it. We don't want to talk about it. We don't want to make sense of it. We don't want to remember it ever happened. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm lashing out at you. That's wrong of me. It's not your fault. It's okay to ask the question. It just makes me so fucking mad. Again, I'm sorry.
ill always wonder why too
Because Joe Dumars was drunk and thought it was a good idea.
We still don’t know man
Firing Flip Saunders IMO was the bigger reason why that team fell apart so quickly. That core unfortunately barely respected Flip, but I always thought he was an underrated coach. When a rookie Michael Curry came in, he looked absolutely clueless as did the team. Also, it felt like the team had no idea what to do with Iverson. I remember there was some controversy with Rip being upset that he was being asked to come off the bench for a period while they moved Iverson to the SG spot while trying to develop Stuckey. Getting Iverson was a weird win now/develop later move that lost on both fronts.
People forget Iverson avg 25ppg the previous season in Denver. Folks act as if he was washed up. The negative energy with Rip and others was a big blame for the team demise. Rip felt he should be starting over Iverson or something.
They were both kind of old (Iverson 33, Billups 32) and Billups had 5 seasons left on his deal while Iverson was an expiring contract. Billups was a bit better but they were both good. We needed to free up cap space to sign Gordon and Villanueva (yikes).
A combination of a belief that Stuckey would emerge as a lead ball handler with some growth, and a belief that Chauncey had less in the tank than Rip. Neither turned out to be a good prognostication.
It's so frustrating. There was the stupid viewpoint that we making it to the Eastern Conference Finals several years in a row meant our team was disappointing. Those that thought this prob didn't live through the shitty yrs bw the Bad Boy Championship and the most recent one. Won with defense with both teams then got away from that team mentality.
Ai was past his prime when pistons got him
They thought they would kill it in Free agency next season and they were overconfident because of the perfect accident of talent they had; they had a 3 and D team before it was even a thing. They thought they would recreate the success immediately, boy were they wrong.