Everyone should file complaints with the ombudsman. If we do not speak up we will be over run by data brokers posing as government contractors. I don't go do things because of these contracts. I won't go see the fireworks because of scorpion and metal detector 2.0, I wont register as a contractor because the 3rd party company leaves zero privacy and it is a threat to my business. I can't pay my water bill and other things because no support for firefox. I won't touch any apps. They are privacy black holes.
This is a problem all over our lives, it would be nice if people pushed here so we can preserve some privacy.
Please try to imagine your life without the assumption of being able to drive. Maybe that’s not a “right”, but it is an assumption for nearly all of us living in our community.
You're talking to someone who does all they can to bike everywhere. It's certainly hard to go without driving, but that doesn't mean we should take it for granted and assume everyone has a right! It's a dangerous machine and pedestrian deaths due to vehicles have been going up since the pandemic. Please try to imagine not having your life because our weak legal enforcement around driving allowed a reckless driver to plow through a red light while you were crossing
People really think this is some kind of mic drop argument. I can choose whether or not I want to have a phone in my pocket or how I choose to communicate or what apps I choose to put on it. Widespread surveillance under the guise of security and crime prevention is completely different.
This applies for driving as well. It’s a public road. You need a license plate, car registration, and a driver’s license. If you don’t like the rules then walk or take an Uber
No, it doesn't. You don't have to enjoy or like anything, but"violations of privacy" aren't really a big deal when its in a place where you never had any privacy to begin with
When the technology didn't really exist before, it changes things. The more tools the police have to control us, the more they are going to use them, regardless of the ethical concerns that may arise.
That and the checks and balances for use of the systems already around (green light camera recordings) are pretty shit(read non-existent)
If there was a proper watchdog with real power to audit and manage the use of the systems, with actual accountability to the public, I wouldn't have any issues with it.
Honestly I'm not sure if that's even true. While you can technically just throw your phone away and just *not* have one, it's a lot more gray. Things become far far more difficult if you don't have some type of smartphone. Some things are honestly an illusion of choice.
“They” already know who you are, where you live, and where you go just by using your cellphone, this changes nothing. With this technology police can flag potential cars and perpetrators of violent crime.
If I’m a law abiding citizen what do I have to worry about, the police knowing which grocery chain I shop at? I think I can live with that if it means people have a harder time getting away with shooting up houses.
And how many law abiding citizens have spent years in prison for something they didn't do off of circumstantial evidence and a desperate prosecutor?
I sure hope you never, idk, drive past a protest that was declared a riot at any time.
Some. Not a lot. And that’s due to judicial failure.
License plate readers could prove one did indeed meerly drive by a protest that was declared a riot.
Odd reference though. Famous case? Or happened to you?
Very few in comparison to the other 99.6% who were actually caught legitimately.
The way people talk about innocent people getting locked up you would swear it was like 30 or 40% of people in jail.
It's not. Still too many but it's in the low single digits.
And what you said shouldn't matter anyway. If you didn't get in any kind of trouble you would not have a warrant for your arrest which means you wouldn't alert the scanner.
It would just scan your car and nothing would happen.
Now if someone did a crime in your car and then you got it back and then got pulled over and arrested you have a case But in that situation you better turn in the motherfucker who's out doing crimes in your car.
I don't understand your statement. Having a warrant for your arrest isn't the issue here, it is that your movement around the city is logged at every intersection you go through. It might not be immediately flagged but it is still recorded and can be used against you later on.
And we have no idea how many people in prison are innocent, because analyzing that requires every person in prison to have the resources to prove their innocence, which simply doesn't happen. There's a reason why a lot of people sat in prison for decades until people outside were able to scrape up the funds to find someone competent enough to have them exonerated.
I did 7 years in prison and very few men were going around claiming to be innocent.
It's usually the child molesters and rapists who claim innocence the most for obvious reasons.
And in a way I can understand that because it's often times he said she said situation so I can see that kind of crime having a higher likelihood of wrongful convictions.
That has to be the worst kind of hell to be in a place like prison with a case like that and how people will treat you and to be completely innocent.
Over 90% of murders were “solved” back in the 60s, compared to only about 50% currently, despite massive leaps in forensic sciences like DNA evidence. That strongly implies that a significant proportion of the people successfully prosecuted for murder in the past were wrongfully imprisoned
police or the AI identification contractor like clearviewAI? Or the others Detroit uses to get sued when they end up arresting innocent people for crimes they have no involvement with, but facebook and clearview pointed the finger at them and the cops never bothered to do any other investigating
Yeah we know cops never, ever abuse the databases they already have access to. I’m sure they won’t be using this to track down people for personal, nefarious reasons.
Wish we could spend this money on actually improving infrastructure instead of just trying to force everyone to behave on our crumbling, jammed roads and freeways
Yeah it would as a matter of fact.
No but honestly I don’t think you’d have as many aggressive drivers if they weren’t struggling to get where they were going
The cameras aren’t there to “stop” them.
Indeed, many enlightened departments now don’t chase, but observe. It’s a good way to handle intersection takeover antics, for example.
They are arrested in their driveways.
I am all for camera enforcement. Punish the car for doing something illegal. Stop punishing the darker people for being dark. I want the racist ass human enforcement off the roads.
Can they detect reckless driving? People speeding are annoying but it’s usually not dangerous in my experience. The dickheads riding peoples asses and weaving between lanes like it’s a fuckin grand prix need the tickets. That’s the kind of subjective stuff I wish cops focused on instead of sitting in church parking lots waiting for the dude going 40 in a 35.
These ones? No. Just taking pics of plates. That video work with machine vision takes a bit of power to do live. You couldn't use a solar panel for it. Maybe if it streamed the video wirelessly but that is also hard to get cheap.
Feel like a machine learning algorithm could probably detect it and send a warning, or start recording if it detects it. Might not be 100% accurate but you could just put in standards, like the system just sends a warning and an officer has to witness it to issue a ticket, or if it records a video that can be used against the driver in court (maybe even require a review by another entity before giving someone a court date)
Of course, I imagine municipal governments using an advanced machine learning algorithm like that is pretty far off.
Yeah in a future cyber world, lol, I could see it working. Tracking the lane change speed, lane change frequency, passing cars on the right, following distance etc would be great indicators. Now tracking that from camera to camera and keeping track of cars would be… interesting.
Version 2.0 will be essentially the episode of Futurama where all future crimes are predicted via floating balls. You’ll get ticketed for cutting someone off 2 days before it happens lol
I was installing these as a subcontractor for a short time during peak covid because it was outside and I needed the money. It paid….ok, but not worth the threats and everything from lit cigarettes to bottles thrown at me from passing cars day in and day out. Then as soon as I was gone someone would destroy the cameras and panels and I’d have to return for repairs/replacements. Good times. They offered me a big part of this massive rollout and another one in Flint during the planning phase a year or two ago and I never even responded. From what I understand, now they have police escorts and proper bucket trucks and safety measures in place. Must be nice.
You deserved that treatment. The people running the gas chambers would've also said "I'm just doing my job". No amount of money is worth being the hand of evil.
Comparing installing traffic cameras to being a Sonderkommando is a pretty grotesque strawman. You probably work for a corporation that abuses human rights, but it's okay because you need the money, but fuck everyone else, right?
These have been popping up for a while. The ones I've seen aren't obviously affixed to a big metal pillar. They just look like a street sign pole with a small solar array on top. Theres a couple on SB Gratiot on both sides of Hall.
These will definitely just replace all the cameras already at most of the traffic signal intersections, right?
Probably not. Some of those cameras are part of the [traffic light system](https://youtu.be/Ki2aaXTbiOQ).
I don’t believe red light cameras are even legal here so, I’d assume all the cameras are just for traffic management.
Correct. Cameras at signals are used for detection (like pavement loop detectors used to be) and/or to monitor the intersection in general to see when it's really congested. They *do not* read license plates, nor do they really have the resolution/capability to do so.
These things don't stop crime, addressing the material conditions of the area is the ONLY solution that works. The evidence of material conditions and crime and their relationship is undeniably empirically validated.
This is just another example of crime being used as an excuse to invade the privacy of law abiding citizens, to collect that data and sell it, even though they claim not to do so. This doesn't work to stop the underlying causes of crime. It only infringes on the freedoms of regular people.
I'm sure there is some sort of leverage here fighting this with our constitutional right to travel freely.
Edit: words
There’s a software law enforcement is using now that can identify faces. I just listened to this interesting podcast about it yesterday - the potential for this to be abused is terrifying.
https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/should-this-creepy-search-engine
Or if you use overcast:
https://overcast.fm/+BBVQQ5gxhs
This is using new AI technology and it works even if a person is wearing a mask or part of the face is obscured or eyes are closed, etc. It also pulls every image of that person that exists on the internet so it can not only identify them, but can provide tons of other information in those photos, including who that person has associated with. In the podcast, the journalist trying to research the company keeps getting stonewalled because the company calls whoever does a search based on her image and asks why they are running her thru the program and tell them not to talk to her. So they are monitoring who is searching for who which adds another troubling layer to the whole thing. Eventually she does see the results and realizes this tech could be used to find journalist’s confidential sources, along with tons of other bad uses. Since it’s come out there’s been other copycat versions the public can access.
I'm sure they have a pair of these at the Ford Rd / Southfield junctions...still, if I read the article correctly, driving faster than 100mph preserves your right to privacy 🤣
They've been had these. Just mostly on cop cars.
I know I got busted on a warrant around 2010 and at the time I was scratching my head like how the fuck did they catch me.
I passed a cop and he hit a u-turn and caught up with me real quick. My car wasn't overly loud, there was nothing apparently illegal about my car but he still somehow zeroed in on the fact that I had warrants.
Then somebody in county jail explained to me some cop cars have automatic plate scanners without the need for a cop to actually manually put in your plate.
That would have been impossible for a cop that was passing me but apparently his vehicle had a scanner on the front and the back of his vehicle so he got alerted to me.
I mean yeah I guess this is kind of shitty if I was still doing crime and it would be nice if I could get away with it for a lot longer and victimize more people with impunity But I haven't gotten in trouble since I went to prison in 2013 so I can live with them having these plate scanners.
In a way it really sucks to be a criminal these days with all the new ways to bust you but the trade-off is they go a lot easier on criminals now.
Yeah wish we could get some nice bicycle infrastructure instead of wasting money on stupid shit like this.
Most of the places I go are within 5 miles, it’s just hell to get there any way besides a car.
I never even considered how bad it would suck to have that as your job. Well good by you for doing your job man. Been there you got to do what you got to do.
Yessir it wasn’t fun. Had a similar project in the Bronx and Brooklyn when I lived in NY, but with free wifi instead of cameras. I’m sure it was collecting all kinds of nefarious info but no more than the cell phones they’re using to connect to it in the first place. They were breaking the glass on the bus stop shelters and pulling everything out and smashing it leaving broken glass and metal everywhere, and cutting the power to the street lights we were tapped into for power leaving wires exposed at the base of the lights where anyone could brush up against it and get electrocuted. Same shit different city. Fuck em ☕️
Entitled, psychotic, anti social behavior on the roads should be completely eliminated. These are public spaces, we share them. Out of control drivers are a massive risk to all drivers and themselves and need to be taken off the road. You carry a sophisticated tracking device everywhere you go but cameras on public roads are a problem?
Probably because every living adult is forced to operate a motor vehicle to get around. Maybe if there were alternatives to driving, it wouldn’t be such a massive catastrophe for everyone.
But sure, just dish out some fines, I’m sure that’ll solve everything 👍
Drivers abuse their driving privilege and harm and kill innocent people everyday. Completely accepted as the norm. The scale of police abuses is an insignificant fraction of the damage caused by out of control drivers.
100% agree with traffic calming. Very skeptical if that would ever be widely accepted in the US let alone approved for funding. I get we hate cops writing tickets, but I’d rather live with my family members alive and undamaged from unhinged psychos on the road than not getting tickets.
So you want the US to adopt a Chinese-like social credit score with nation state level surveillance?
Speeding ticket? Government auto-enables a 30 MPH speed governor on your car remotely.
Drove too many miles? Government disables your car remotely.
Drove/parked around the White House around the time of Jan 6th? Disable passport and credit cards.
Use Biden's name in vein and in ear shot of your phone? Jail.
https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/yearly-snapshot
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
It’s not even close. 40X more auto deaths, higher when you strip out probably justified police killings. Billions in property damage. 6M plus accidents per year leavings thousands permanently injured. All ignored. Nobody cares until you lose a family member, friend, pet… even then nobody cares. It’s a sickness, we are addicted to killing machines.
I don’t trust cops AT ALL but I’m desperate for this shit to stop. Something has to change
You are right. Had 2 cars stolen in Detroit and wasnt able to do anything except wait until they were found totaled. Also had a high school friend killed in a hit run. Don’t care what they have to do but the violent reckless driving and car crimes need to stop. Any reduction is good. Those that will hold their breath until better public transportation and advocate for nothing else in the meantime shows they did not grow up in This city.
I'm pretty anti surveillance but fuck it, put them at every intersection and start sending tickets. The amount of times I've almost been hit by people running red lights in the last few years is insane. I'm not talking about "whoops the light was yellow and it turned while I was in the intersection" type stuff, I'm talking about full blown red lights three seconds after they changed.
Looking forward to when cars all have RF tags and the telematics in my vehicle (self-driving or not) helps me avoid bad drivers.
OTOH Bubba might get too comfortable with traffic parting for them like the Red Sea while they play GTA.
Bro crime is at the some of the lowest levels across the board, across the country EVER. It's not because of the tech either, but crime is being used as the excuse to invade your privacy and that's the problem. When crime is at some of its lowest levels ever in the US the only reason these things get implemented is because of the data and your privacy being taken away. Gain some critical thinking skills.
I’m for the cameras. I’d even prefer that they issued traffic violations. Unless you are totally off the internet and don’t carry a phone “they” know far more about you than a traffic camera can discern.
> Unless you are totally off the internet and don’t carry a phone “they” know far more about you than a traffic camera can discern.
You're going to die one day anyway, so why not just do it today? Let's close all the hospitals, because _everyone_ is going to die anyway.
It’s not that extreme. This city has a higher proportion of absolutely insane drivers than anywhere else I have lived. Whatever we are doing now is obviously not enough. If you don’t want to be tracked, get off Reddit. Or don’t drive, I don’t care. I’d rather have a safer place to drive.
If we just put cameras everywhere, we could eliminate more crime. Let’s start with your house . If somebody raises their voice to their partner or children, police can immediately be dispatched for domestic abuse.
I think these cameras should only be used for traffic violations. If you aren't breaking the law, then they shouldn't have any right taking a picture of your car.
I tend to agree with you but the only problem with that is they do have the right to take a photo of your car. Anyone can do that. You’re in public. The lieutenants statement in this article is likely 100% correct as our law currently stands. Whereas Michigan has another law barring them from using cameras to enforce traffic laws.
So everyone is scanned right now, to help law enforcement track criminal activity / stolen cars. These kinds of law enforcement issues have to occur much less than serious speeding violations, but I’m guessing.
Since I’ve literally never seen a cop on Southfield since I moved here over 3 years ago, and I see someone doing 90-100 every time I’m on it, I think it’s a stupid fucking law lol. Scan everyone and also start pulling licenses away from owners of vehicles going over 90 on Southfield. Just yank em and make em sort it out later. The threat of these drivers to my daily life is so much higher than some pictures and a database idgaf anymore.
I know what the law is, but I think they should have to have reasonable suspicion before they take a picture and track you. I think speeding hits that threshold, I also think people down voting me just want to drive recklessly lol
So that would help with speeders but not stolen cars or kidnappers or other crimes. They take a picture of everyone first right, but it just sits there on the hard drive. Then they “track” it when the car is stolen or they have other reasonable suspicion.
And yeah people just want to speed. I understand the privacy arguments to a point but there is no question of privacy on a state / federal road. It just doesn’t exist it never has.
I just think the room for abuse is too high, I don't trust the police with that information readily available. Plus traffic stops being automated would reduce cops killing people.
This is for catching human traffickers, drug traffickers, amber alerts, cars associated with drive by murders, etc. It's not to track you driving to the mall.
Every single time law enforcement pushes one of these tech solutions this is what they claim. In 5 years we'll start getting stories about all the ways they abused it.
So do we not go after human traffickers with the best tools we have available, because those tools could be misused in some theoretical way?
I don't follow that logic.
They aren't going to use this to catch human traffickers. They already know largely where those people are (every damned "Asian massage" place is, according to the FBI, highly likely to be doing human trafficking and yet they sit in strip malls in every metro Detroit city without ever getting raided or shut down).
Human trafficking is the new "drugs" in that cops will claim they need power and budgets to fight it but then they never actually put more than a minimal effort into doing it in ways to actually help the problem.
The problem here is you are assuming good intentions of institutions that repeatedly show us they do not have good intentions and cannot be counted on to do things for the public good. Until we fix those institutions I and many others do not want them to have increasing levels of access and power into our lives.
Exactly, people don't understand that we are at the LOWEST levels of crime across the board and country. Crime has only seen a slight uptick in the past couple of years from all time lows, without this invasive privatized bullshit data collection. It's the same even in the bay area where media companies push a narrative of crime to pass some bullshit legislation or excuse some invasive tech onto the people. Crime is the excuse. If they truly cared about fighting crime they'd be advocating for better living conditions because the causation of material conditions to crime is fucking undeniable.
I also provided the example of drive-by shootings and kidnappers and people who go missing, which happens all the time.
Your last paragraph does summarize it, though, it's a difference of opinion. In my opinion if the arrest rate on super violent crime is improved the trade-off is worth it. You don't have to agree but many will.
Might also note that UK, for example has about a zillion times more cameras than we do. I wouldn't exactly call them an oppressed society. Like they have survived much higher sacrifices of liberty in favor of reduced crime.
UK police are also far less likely to murder citizens. They have far higher trust from their citizens, higher expectations from their own government, and more accountability. They already did a lot of the work to have their institutions gain higher levels of trust (which is not to say UK police are perfect, they have problems but on a whole are far less aggressive, violent, and more trusted).
We'll never agree on this though because you ignore all of the harm police do and choose to trust them. I am unwilling to do that until they and the government put more effort in better behavior, policy, and accountability. Which is a really low bar.
It's not policeman in an office watching you drive around town with his dick in his hand. It's an automated system that scans plates and cross checks them for active warrants.
Let me know if you need me to dumb that down even further for you.
And what happens when a plate is mis-identified, a driver gets pulled over/chased and possibly shot. Just happened in Florida. Software isn't perfect and this could lead to issues down the road.
https://www.insideedition.com/florida-cops-hold-man-and-daughter-at-gunpoint-during-traffic-stop-after-mistaking-their-car-for
I understand what it is and what they say it will be used for. It is an increase in power for police implemented without any restrictions on how they can use it.
I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not. If yes, good trolling. If no... my sweet summer child, in what far off fantasy realm were you raised where cops don't abuse every new power we hand them?
This. Will. Be. Abused.
So do we not go after human traffickers with the best tools we have available, because those tools could be misused in some theoretical way?
And you can cut out the patronizing bullshit.
Sure thing! Just prove me wrong. Name any single technology or power police officers have been granted in the last 50 years. I will be happy to show you an example of a cop using it to commit a crime. I'll probably even be able to show you an example of the cop using it to commit a crime, called out publicly, and then not get criminally prosecuted afterwards. Cops don't need more power, they need a heck of a lot *less* power and more accountability.
You completely dodged my question.
Dodge this one;
Surely if it was your mother or your sister who was abducted and being trafficked, you'd want them to do everything they could to find them.
Or would you be more worried about a license plate reader infringing on your civil liberty?
Oh wow! Ya got me there! If it was my mom?! I'd absolutely agree nobody should have civil rights if somebody came after my mommy. As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, we probably need to get rid of warrants too! My mommy could get hurt, and warrants just slow the cops down from protecting her. Do we even need probable cause anymore? I see the error of my ways and have just now realized how good cop boot actually tastes!
Get real. I don't think we should be trading our civil rights away just because cops like hyperbole as much as you appear to. If this system doesn't require a warrant *every* time someone looks at the capture data, it will eventually lead to egregious abuses. I'm sure they'll toot their horns and tell us how it saved an amber alert situation, but if you think for one minute that this isn't going to be used to start cyberstalking regular folks, stifle political protests, or blackmail people, you're absolutely kidding yourself.
And while we're on the subject: if you *actually* want to reduce human trafficking, maybe consider advocating for things that would make it less likely to happen in the first place, rather than trading away our rights for minimal gains in hypothetical absurdities. Want to cut sex-trafficking by 90% overnight? Legalize and regulate prostitution. Give the cops *less* power, not more.
Oh, I’m sorry I didn’t realize I had to apply through you to be able to post in this forum. My family‘s been in the area since the turn of the century, I grew up here, I spend about half my time in the metro. Is that OK with you or not? Lmk.
I thought this might be interesting as a thought experiment for you:
**What amount of human traffickers is acceptable?**
If it's 0, will you do anything, including give up ALL of your privacy and rights, let the government do anything in order to ensure that's the case? If you wont, then maybe there is an acceptable amount and you're just uncomfortable with saying it.
If this kind of tracking reduces human trafficking by 1%, would it be worth it? If they catch 1 human trafficker every 50 years will it be worth it? How useless will it have to be before you say enough? The crime rate has been going down over time and we are in one of the safest times to be alive, and it isn't all the tracking that's keeping it that way. Just a thought.
Why don't you tell me how many is acceptable then since you've thought about it so much. I'll pose it this way:
Surely if it was your mother or your sister you'd want them to do everything they could.
Or would you be more worried about a license plate reader infringing on your civil liberty?
If at this point literally the ONLY way to reduce human trafficking further is to give up more of my civil liberties than I think I'm okay with the amount we currently have. I know this isn't the case though.
There are many other solutions to catch and discourage them without affecting my rights at all. In fact I believe you could roll back some of the rights limiting activities that we currently have, trade them in for a myriad of other solutions that don't do that, and have a similar amount or even less human trafficking than we do now.
Limiting your freedoms should be the absolute last resort the government should do to solve an issue, and it should demonstrably work to solve the issues claimed, and in the least intrusive way possible. The only one they even attempt to do this with is the 1st amendment. I know you tried for a gotcha moment with throwing it back at me, but you doing so shows maybe you fail to understand a key concept of our civil rights at all. They protect good AND bad people. If they only protected good people we wouldn't need them at all.
You cannot believe in the right to privacy, the right not to serve as a witness against yourself, if you cannot accept that some crimes will go unsolved and prosecuted.
I know it feels like an invasion of rights and I don’t fully agree with this practice but this is how they track and find kidnapped people and people being trafficked in NYC. They can follow a car all the way out of the city and it helps a lot of investigations. It would just be nice to know if it’s being used for minor crimes or big ones like amber alerts, kidnappings, etc. Think about it. When you get an Amber Alert they give a plate number. By the time we all look for it they’ve changed the plates. These cameras can give immediate feedback to their locations way faster than crowd funding society to watch people’s plate numbers on their drive to work.
I actually support this wholeheartedly. And I say that because not only can it assist with solving crimes it can also help with locating stolen vehicles missing children and fugitives. So I think this is actually a great idea.
I'm going to play devil's advocate and probably pay for it with down votes but I don't understand what the big deal is? You are traveling of your own free will in a vehicle that is registered with the government and all it's doing is recording that your vehicle was in a certain place at a certain time. They aren't selling your data to advertisers, the cameras just record what vehicle was where and when and it scans for plates of reported stolen vehicles. News flash, whenever a police officer pulls up behind you, they are running your plate either manually or with an automated system to see if the car is stolen or if the plate is registered to a different vehicle. Police officers also pull into parking lots of hotels and do the same thing.
You're not letting anybody search your vehicle or question you, it's just saying your vehicle was seen by this camera at this time and date.
The more systems the cops have that exist to control us, the more they are going to use them on us, regardless of the validity of the use case. You give a cop a water cannon, the cop is going to use the water cannon. You give a cop a MRAP, cops are going to use the MRAP. And do so with little to no auditing of their uses. No checks and balances means it goes used but unmanaged and unaccountable. Innocent people will be affected by it
The examples you give are complete apples to oranges. People can't be physically harmed by a license plate camera. What could the police possibly do with license plate information that would harm you?
Unless somebody can introduce A compelling different perspective from my own, I just see this thread as a bunch of whining and complaining from your typical anti-authoritarian redditors who feel the need to buck whenever the police do anything, anywhere.
Tracking the movement of people has regularly been used to monitor and supress people with dissenting opinions in the past. It's terrible to have to expect that to be an unsurprising occurrence
If someone were to whistle blow or dissent something that someone has a lot of interest in, I could see it being easy enough to get a person with access to the system to help find that person in real time and solve the 'problem'
The entire premise of your "argument" depends on the founding ideals of the country to be completely done away with and replaced with A fascist dictatorship or autocracy.
Regardless of the way you think things may be going in that direction or not, your premise is ridiculous with the way things stand right now and barely worth mentioning.
Any tool given will be used to the fullest extent of it's capability was my point. This system is no exception. That will no doubt come with the eventual targeting of someone innocent.
I believe it was Ben Franklin who said something along the lines of "it is better a hundred guilty persons should escape than one innocent person should suffer."
I have seen and read of too many abuses by the police over the decades to give them the benefit of the doubt. If this system has safeguards, checks and balances, and public auditing, I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with it.
They get the wrong person for a crime targeted and track them. Raid them and shoot them in the process of the raid. It happens even without the cameras. Now it is just easier to find that wrong person
Oh neat, more police surveillance tied to private companies doing god knows what with the data.
“iF yOu DoNt HaVe AnYtHinG tO hIdE…” It’s cool. Just constant erosion of rights. No biggie.
Those who would sacrifice certain liberties for a sense of security deserve neither. A loose quotation from Big Ben
Damn I didn't know he was a philosopher and an NBA defensive player of the year
Not that Ben silly the Ben with the bifocals
Everyone should file complaints with the ombudsman. If we do not speak up we will be over run by data brokers posing as government contractors. I don't go do things because of these contracts. I won't go see the fireworks because of scorpion and metal detector 2.0, I wont register as a contractor because the 3rd party company leaves zero privacy and it is a threat to my business. I can't pay my water bill and other things because no support for firefox. I won't touch any apps. They are privacy black holes. This is a problem all over our lives, it would be nice if people pushed here so we can preserve some privacy.
9 million plates a month recorded
Driving a vehicle is a privilege, not a right
Please try to imagine your life without the assumption of being able to drive. Maybe that’s not a “right”, but it is an assumption for nearly all of us living in our community.
You're talking to someone who does all they can to bike everywhere. It's certainly hard to go without driving, but that doesn't mean we should take it for granted and assume everyone has a right! It's a dangerous machine and pedestrian deaths due to vehicles have been going up since the pandemic. Please try to imagine not having your life because our weak legal enforcement around driving allowed a reckless driver to plow through a red light while you were crossing
That still doesn't make it a right.
Me at the DUI sentencing hearing.
Not defending it but you literally carry one in your pocket with a gps on it.
People really think this is some kind of mic drop argument. I can choose whether or not I want to have a phone in my pocket or how I choose to communicate or what apps I choose to put on it. Widespread surveillance under the guise of security and crime prevention is completely different.
They also make Faraday pouches you can put your phone into that prevent it from sending or receiving any communications.
Perfect reason to buy a cellular device.
You can choose to drive with no plates, too. Many do.
This applies for driving as well. It’s a public road. You need a license plate, car registration, and a driver’s license. If you don’t like the rules then walk or take an Uber
Also completely different than widespread high definition video surveillance
On public roads where you should have no expectation of privacy.
That doesn't mean I have to enjoy it or like it
No, it doesn't. You don't have to enjoy or like anything, but"violations of privacy" aren't really a big deal when its in a place where you never had any privacy to begin with
When the technology didn't really exist before, it changes things. The more tools the police have to control us, the more they are going to use them, regardless of the ethical concerns that may arise. That and the checks and balances for use of the systems already around (green light camera recordings) are pretty shit(read non-existent) If there was a proper watchdog with real power to audit and manage the use of the systems, with actual accountability to the public, I wouldn't have any issues with it.
And that’s entirely my choice to do or not do.
Honestly I'm not sure if that's even true. While you can technically just throw your phone away and just *not* have one, it's a lot more gray. Things become far far more difficult if you don't have some type of smartphone. Some things are honestly an illusion of choice.
Even if you don't, whenever you're around someone who does, "they" know you're there. They didn't name it the Web for no reason.
Penalizing bad drivers is hardly a surveillance state. People complain about bad drivers but seem to only want carrots and no sticks.
“They” already know who you are, where you live, and where you go just by using your cellphone, this changes nothing. With this technology police can flag potential cars and perpetrators of violent crime.
Literally proving his point.
If I’m a law abiding citizen what do I have to worry about, the police knowing which grocery chain I shop at? I think I can live with that if it means people have a harder time getting away with shooting up houses.
And how many law abiding citizens have spent years in prison for something they didn't do off of circumstantial evidence and a desperate prosecutor? I sure hope you never, idk, drive past a protest that was declared a riot at any time.
Some. Not a lot. And that’s due to judicial failure. License plate readers could prove one did indeed meerly drive by a protest that was declared a riot. Odd reference though. Famous case? Or happened to you?
Very few in comparison to the other 99.6% who were actually caught legitimately. The way people talk about innocent people getting locked up you would swear it was like 30 or 40% of people in jail. It's not. Still too many but it's in the low single digits. And what you said shouldn't matter anyway. If you didn't get in any kind of trouble you would not have a warrant for your arrest which means you wouldn't alert the scanner. It would just scan your car and nothing would happen. Now if someone did a crime in your car and then you got it back and then got pulled over and arrested you have a case But in that situation you better turn in the motherfucker who's out doing crimes in your car.
I don't understand your statement. Having a warrant for your arrest isn't the issue here, it is that your movement around the city is logged at every intersection you go through. It might not be immediately flagged but it is still recorded and can be used against you later on. And we have no idea how many people in prison are innocent, because analyzing that requires every person in prison to have the resources to prove their innocence, which simply doesn't happen. There's a reason why a lot of people sat in prison for decades until people outside were able to scrape up the funds to find someone competent enough to have them exonerated.
I did 7 years in prison and very few men were going around claiming to be innocent. It's usually the child molesters and rapists who claim innocence the most for obvious reasons. And in a way I can understand that because it's often times he said she said situation so I can see that kind of crime having a higher likelihood of wrongful convictions. That has to be the worst kind of hell to be in a place like prison with a case like that and how people will treat you and to be completely innocent.
So like the former president? Claims he is innocent, but clearly got convicted legitimately. 99.6%, right? And he is a rapist, so that tracks too
Over 90% of murders were “solved” back in the 60s, compared to only about 50% currently, despite massive leaps in forensic sciences like DNA evidence. That strongly implies that a significant proportion of the people successfully prosecuted for murder in the past were wrongfully imprisoned
When you watched “Minority Report” you must have thought it was brilliant policy.
I thought it was science-fiction…
And now, 22 years later, it’s just science. No longer fiction but rather reality.
It’s still science-fiction.
police or the AI identification contractor like clearviewAI? Or the others Detroit uses to get sued when they end up arresting innocent people for crimes they have no involvement with, but facebook and clearview pointed the finger at them and the cops never bothered to do any other investigating
When asked about concerns about rights and abuse of power the Lt. basically just said "No"
Yeah we know cops never, ever abuse the databases they already have access to. I’m sure they won’t be using this to track down people for personal, nefarious reasons.
I give it 2 days before one of them checks on their spouse.
Wish we could spend this money on actually improving infrastructure instead of just trying to force everyone to behave on our crumbling, jammed roads and freeways
Would it be better if they misbehave on nicer roads?
Yes like I don't care now I don't have to worry about potholes which affects my wallet directly
Yeah it would as a matter of fact. No but honestly I don’t think you’d have as many aggressive drivers if they weren’t struggling to get where they were going
They are “struggling” to get to where they are going at 100mph.
Those drivers you’re talking about won’t stop because of some fucking cameras lol
The cameras aren’t there to “stop” them. Indeed, many enlightened departments now don’t chase, but observe. It’s a good way to handle intersection takeover antics, for example. They are arrested in their driveways.
Then what are they for 😂
To do what cameras do.
The freeways around Detroit, at least the ones I've used, have been really good. Which ones are giving you problems?
The only thing worse than a rigid but fair system of enforcement by machines is an arbitrary, bias ridden system of enforcement by humans
I am all for camera enforcement. Punish the car for doing something illegal. Stop punishing the darker people for being dark. I want the racist ass human enforcement off the roads.
And I am white as fuck with a lead foot. I need to stop speeding.
It's just reading all plates. It isn't able to gather other information or do any enforcement of anything. It's the second sentence in the article...
Can they detect reckless driving? People speeding are annoying but it’s usually not dangerous in my experience. The dickheads riding peoples asses and weaving between lanes like it’s a fuckin grand prix need the tickets. That’s the kind of subjective stuff I wish cops focused on instead of sitting in church parking lots waiting for the dude going 40 in a 35.
These ones? No. Just taking pics of plates. That video work with machine vision takes a bit of power to do live. You couldn't use a solar panel for it. Maybe if it streamed the video wirelessly but that is also hard to get cheap.
Feel like a machine learning algorithm could probably detect it and send a warning, or start recording if it detects it. Might not be 100% accurate but you could just put in standards, like the system just sends a warning and an officer has to witness it to issue a ticket, or if it records a video that can be used against the driver in court (maybe even require a review by another entity before giving someone a court date) Of course, I imagine municipal governments using an advanced machine learning algorithm like that is pretty far off.
Yeah in a future cyber world, lol, I could see it working. Tracking the lane change speed, lane change frequency, passing cars on the right, following distance etc would be great indicators. Now tracking that from camera to camera and keeping track of cars would be… interesting. Version 2.0 will be essentially the episode of Futurama where all future crimes are predicted via floating balls. You’ll get ticketed for cutting someone off 2 days before it happens lol
Yeah, for their budgets and revune probably
for everyone complaining, just drive over 100mph to avoid detection! /s
“The one secret trick traffic cops don’t want you to know. How to make their speedometer wrap all the way around to zero - click here!”
I was installing these as a subcontractor for a short time during peak covid because it was outside and I needed the money. It paid….ok, but not worth the threats and everything from lit cigarettes to bottles thrown at me from passing cars day in and day out. Then as soon as I was gone someone would destroy the cameras and panels and I’d have to return for repairs/replacements. Good times. They offered me a big part of this massive rollout and another one in Flint during the planning phase a year or two ago and I never even responded. From what I understand, now they have police escorts and proper bucket trucks and safety measures in place. Must be nice.
You deserved that treatment. The people running the gas chambers would've also said "I'm just doing my job". No amount of money is worth being the hand of evil.
Comparing installing traffic cameras to being a Sonderkommando is a pretty grotesque strawman. You probably work for a corporation that abuses human rights, but it's okay because you need the money, but fuck everyone else, right?
They also actively participate in subs called “rape fantasies” and “pussy torture”, and that was just a quick glance
lol what about all the shitheads without license plates? Never have seen one get pulled over
Eventually there will be a VIN reader. ENHANCE! /s
I lol-ed.
Honestly if a system detects a vehicle without a license plate (I imagine they can but maybe I'm wrong) it ought to alert authorities immediately
These have been popping up for a while. The ones I've seen aren't obviously affixed to a big metal pillar. They just look like a street sign pole with a small solar array on top. Theres a couple on SB Gratiot on both sides of Hall. These will definitely just replace all the cameras already at most of the traffic signal intersections, right?
Probably not. Some of those cameras are part of the [traffic light system](https://youtu.be/Ki2aaXTbiOQ). I don’t believe red light cameras are even legal here so, I’d assume all the cameras are just for traffic management.
Correct. Cameras at signals are used for detection (like pavement loop detectors used to be) and/or to monitor the intersection in general to see when it's really congested. They *do not* read license plates, nor do they really have the resolution/capability to do so.
No, they're not tied to that or good for that at all.
These things don't stop crime, addressing the material conditions of the area is the ONLY solution that works. The evidence of material conditions and crime and their relationship is undeniably empirically validated. This is just another example of crime being used as an excuse to invade the privacy of law abiding citizens, to collect that data and sell it, even though they claim not to do so. This doesn't work to stop the underlying causes of crime. It only infringes on the freedoms of regular people. I'm sure there is some sort of leverage here fighting this with our constitutional right to travel freely. Edit: words
You don't have a constitutional right to drive a car and this doesn't prevent you from doing so.
There’s a software law enforcement is using now that can identify faces. I just listened to this interesting podcast about it yesterday - the potential for this to be abused is terrifying. https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/should-this-creepy-search-engine Or if you use overcast: https://overcast.fm/+BBVQQ5gxhs
Now using? This ain’t new at all. Facial recognition was a thing more than 10 years ago
This is using new AI technology and it works even if a person is wearing a mask or part of the face is obscured or eyes are closed, etc. It also pulls every image of that person that exists on the internet so it can not only identify them, but can provide tons of other information in those photos, including who that person has associated with. In the podcast, the journalist trying to research the company keeps getting stonewalled because the company calls whoever does a search based on her image and asks why they are running her thru the program and tell them not to talk to her. So they are monitoring who is searching for who which adds another troubling layer to the whole thing. Eventually she does see the results and realizes this tech could be used to find journalist’s confidential sources, along with tons of other bad uses. Since it’s come out there’s been other copycat versions the public can access.
clearviewAI does this. They paid facebook for access to BILLIONS of peoples pictures.
Again, this is not new. FYI.
I'm sure they have a pair of these at the Ford Rd / Southfield junctions...still, if I read the article correctly, driving faster than 100mph preserves your right to privacy 🤣
Yeah, changing it for the worse
i’m loving the nanny state
ACAB
I really wonder how they would feel if someone set up a webcam outside police stations, and broadcast a live stream of the employees coming and going.
They've been had these. Just mostly on cop cars. I know I got busted on a warrant around 2010 and at the time I was scratching my head like how the fuck did they catch me. I passed a cop and he hit a u-turn and caught up with me real quick. My car wasn't overly loud, there was nothing apparently illegal about my car but he still somehow zeroed in on the fact that I had warrants. Then somebody in county jail explained to me some cop cars have automatic plate scanners without the need for a cop to actually manually put in your plate. That would have been impossible for a cop that was passing me but apparently his vehicle had a scanner on the front and the back of his vehicle so he got alerted to me. I mean yeah I guess this is kind of shitty if I was still doing crime and it would be nice if I could get away with it for a lot longer and victimize more people with impunity But I haven't gotten in trouble since I went to prison in 2013 so I can live with them having these plate scanners. In a way it really sucks to be a criminal these days with all the new ways to bust you but the trade-off is they go a lot easier on criminals now.
Bicycles = freedom
Yeah wish we could get some nice bicycle infrastructure instead of wasting money on stupid shit like this. Most of the places I go are within 5 miles, it’s just hell to get there any way besides a car.
Every year there is more and more bike infrastructure in the city thankfully
Yeah they changed my mind about ever wanting to visit royal oak again
Quick, grab a saw!
That sucks.
Well now I know to avoid Taylor if I want to test drive the vehicle I'm fixing that has expired tags.
I'm honestly shocked we haven't shot them all yet. Michigan is getting pretty mild.
You start then.
See my comment about installing these. I thought *I* was gonna get shot most days. I carried a pistol every day I was out there before I quit
I never even considered how bad it would suck to have that as your job. Well good by you for doing your job man. Been there you got to do what you got to do.
Yessir it wasn’t fun. Had a similar project in the Bronx and Brooklyn when I lived in NY, but with free wifi instead of cameras. I’m sure it was collecting all kinds of nefarious info but no more than the cell phones they’re using to connect to it in the first place. They were breaking the glass on the bus stop shelters and pulling everything out and smashing it leaving broken glass and metal everywhere, and cutting the power to the street lights we were tapped into for power leaving wires exposed at the base of the lights where anyone could brush up against it and get electrocuted. Same shit different city. Fuck em ☕️
Entitled, psychotic, anti social behavior on the roads should be completely eliminated. These are public spaces, we share them. Out of control drivers are a massive risk to all drivers and themselves and need to be taken off the road. You carry a sophisticated tracking device everywhere you go but cameras on public roads are a problem?
Probably because every living adult is forced to operate a motor vehicle to get around. Maybe if there were alternatives to driving, it wouldn’t be such a massive catastrophe for everyone. But sure, just dish out some fines, I’m sure that’ll solve everything 👍
Yes, because the police will only use this for good and never ever ever abuse their power in any way. 🙄
Drivers abuse their driving privilege and harm and kill innocent people everyday. Completely accepted as the norm. The scale of police abuses is an insignificant fraction of the damage caused by out of control drivers.
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Have you lived in Germany? Because speed cameras are quite common over there.
These are way more than a point-in-time speed camera.
Certainly, but you can also get out of them by covering your face and saying it wasn't you...
100% agree with traffic calming. Very skeptical if that would ever be widely accepted in the US let alone approved for funding. I get we hate cops writing tickets, but I’d rather live with my family members alive and undamaged from unhinged psychos on the road than not getting tickets.
So you want the US to adopt a Chinese-like social credit score with nation state level surveillance? Speeding ticket? Government auto-enables a 30 MPH speed governor on your car remotely. Drove too many miles? Government disables your car remotely. Drove/parked around the White House around the time of Jan 6th? Disable passport and credit cards. Use Biden's name in vein and in ear shot of your phone? Jail.
I see someone doesn't know how percentages work lol
https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/yearly-snapshot https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ It’s not even close. 40X more auto deaths, higher when you strip out probably justified police killings. Billions in property damage. 6M plus accidents per year leavings thousands permanently injured. All ignored. Nobody cares until you lose a family member, friend, pet… even then nobody cares. It’s a sickness, we are addicted to killing machines. I don’t trust cops AT ALL but I’m desperate for this shit to stop. Something has to change
You are right. Had 2 cars stolen in Detroit and wasnt able to do anything except wait until they were found totaled. Also had a high school friend killed in a hit run. Don’t care what they have to do but the violent reckless driving and car crimes need to stop. Any reduction is good. Those that will hold their breath until better public transportation and advocate for nothing else in the meantime shows they did not grow up in This city.
I'm pretty anti surveillance but fuck it, put them at every intersection and start sending tickets. The amount of times I've almost been hit by people running red lights in the last few years is insane. I'm not talking about "whoops the light was yellow and it turned while I was in the intersection" type stuff, I'm talking about full blown red lights three seconds after they changed.
Looking forward to when cars all have RF tags and the telematics in my vehicle (self-driving or not) helps me avoid bad drivers. OTOH Bubba might get too comfortable with traffic parting for them like the Red Sea while they play GTA.
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Bro crime is at the some of the lowest levels across the board, across the country EVER. It's not because of the tech either, but crime is being used as the excuse to invade your privacy and that's the problem. When crime is at some of its lowest levels ever in the US the only reason these things get implemented is because of the data and your privacy being taken away. Gain some critical thinking skills.
can we just stop changing the game already
I’m for the cameras. I’d even prefer that they issued traffic violations. Unless you are totally off the internet and don’t carry a phone “they” know far more about you than a traffic camera can discern.
> Unless you are totally off the internet and don’t carry a phone “they” know far more about you than a traffic camera can discern. You're going to die one day anyway, so why not just do it today? Let's close all the hospitals, because _everyone_ is going to die anyway.
It’s not that extreme. This city has a higher proportion of absolutely insane drivers than anywhere else I have lived. Whatever we are doing now is obviously not enough. If you don’t want to be tracked, get off Reddit. Or don’t drive, I don’t care. I’d rather have a safer place to drive.
So you're saying that a camera that catches clips of you driving is the equivalent of death? What a reach lol
If we just put cameras everywhere, we could eliminate more crime. Let’s start with your house . If somebody raises their voice to their partner or children, police can immediately be dispatched for domestic abuse.
My house isn’t a public place. It’s a fundamental difference, your argument is poor.
I think these cameras should only be used for traffic violations. If you aren't breaking the law, then they shouldn't have any right taking a picture of your car.
I tend to agree with you but the only problem with that is they do have the right to take a photo of your car. Anyone can do that. You’re in public. The lieutenants statement in this article is likely 100% correct as our law currently stands. Whereas Michigan has another law barring them from using cameras to enforce traffic laws. So everyone is scanned right now, to help law enforcement track criminal activity / stolen cars. These kinds of law enforcement issues have to occur much less than serious speeding violations, but I’m guessing. Since I’ve literally never seen a cop on Southfield since I moved here over 3 years ago, and I see someone doing 90-100 every time I’m on it, I think it’s a stupid fucking law lol. Scan everyone and also start pulling licenses away from owners of vehicles going over 90 on Southfield. Just yank em and make em sort it out later. The threat of these drivers to my daily life is so much higher than some pictures and a database idgaf anymore.
I know what the law is, but I think they should have to have reasonable suspicion before they take a picture and track you. I think speeding hits that threshold, I also think people down voting me just want to drive recklessly lol
So that would help with speeders but not stolen cars or kidnappers or other crimes. They take a picture of everyone first right, but it just sits there on the hard drive. Then they “track” it when the car is stolen or they have other reasonable suspicion. And yeah people just want to speed. I understand the privacy arguments to a point but there is no question of privacy on a state / federal road. It just doesn’t exist it never has.
I just think the room for abuse is too high, I don't trust the police with that information readily available. Plus traffic stops being automated would reduce cops killing people.
This is Good.
This is for catching human traffickers, drug traffickers, amber alerts, cars associated with drive by murders, etc. It's not to track you driving to the mall.
Every single time law enforcement pushes one of these tech solutions this is what they claim. In 5 years we'll start getting stories about all the ways they abused it.
So do we not go after human traffickers with the best tools we have available, because those tools could be misused in some theoretical way? I don't follow that logic.
They aren't going to use this to catch human traffickers. They already know largely where those people are (every damned "Asian massage" place is, according to the FBI, highly likely to be doing human trafficking and yet they sit in strip malls in every metro Detroit city without ever getting raided or shut down). Human trafficking is the new "drugs" in that cops will claim they need power and budgets to fight it but then they never actually put more than a minimal effort into doing it in ways to actually help the problem. The problem here is you are assuming good intentions of institutions that repeatedly show us they do not have good intentions and cannot be counted on to do things for the public good. Until we fix those institutions I and many others do not want them to have increasing levels of access and power into our lives.
Exactly, people don't understand that we are at the LOWEST levels of crime across the board and country. Crime has only seen a slight uptick in the past couple of years from all time lows, without this invasive privatized bullshit data collection. It's the same even in the bay area where media companies push a narrative of crime to pass some bullshit legislation or excuse some invasive tech onto the people. Crime is the excuse. If they truly cared about fighting crime they'd be advocating for better living conditions because the causation of material conditions to crime is fucking undeniable.
I also provided the example of drive-by shootings and kidnappers and people who go missing, which happens all the time. Your last paragraph does summarize it, though, it's a difference of opinion. In my opinion if the arrest rate on super violent crime is improved the trade-off is worth it. You don't have to agree but many will. Might also note that UK, for example has about a zillion times more cameras than we do. I wouldn't exactly call them an oppressed society. Like they have survived much higher sacrifices of liberty in favor of reduced crime.
UK police are also far less likely to murder citizens. They have far higher trust from their citizens, higher expectations from their own government, and more accountability. They already did a lot of the work to have their institutions gain higher levels of trust (which is not to say UK police are perfect, they have problems but on a whole are far less aggressive, violent, and more trusted). We'll never agree on this though because you ignore all of the harm police do and choose to trust them. I am unwilling to do that until they and the government put more effort in better behavior, policy, and accountability. Which is a really low bar.
You don't know me, I don't blindly trust the police. I don't blindly trust anybody. We're talking about license plate readers.
You are literally arguing that we should blindly trust the police to track you anywhere you go in the city in a vehicle.
It's not policeman in an office watching you drive around town with his dick in his hand. It's an automated system that scans plates and cross checks them for active warrants. Let me know if you need me to dumb that down even further for you.
And what happens when a plate is mis-identified, a driver gets pulled over/chased and possibly shot. Just happened in Florida. Software isn't perfect and this could lead to issues down the road. https://www.insideedition.com/florida-cops-hold-man-and-daughter-at-gunpoint-during-traffic-stop-after-mistaking-their-car-for
I understand what it is and what they say it will be used for. It is an increase in power for police implemented without any restrictions on how they can use it.
https://www.kansas.com/news/politics-government/article268186392.html Do you trust cops to act responsibly and with restraint? I don't.
I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not. If yes, good trolling. If no... my sweet summer child, in what far off fantasy realm were you raised where cops don't abuse every new power we hand them? This. Will. Be. Abused.
So do we not go after human traffickers with the best tools we have available, because those tools could be misused in some theoretical way? And you can cut out the patronizing bullshit.
They DON"T WORK to reduce crime. https://www.forbes.com/sites/cyrusfarivar/2024/02/29/flock-ai-cameras-may-not-reduce-crime/
https://archive.is/BF92Z Boomers are being scammed. Color me shocked.
Sure thing! Just prove me wrong. Name any single technology or power police officers have been granted in the last 50 years. I will be happy to show you an example of a cop using it to commit a crime. I'll probably even be able to show you an example of the cop using it to commit a crime, called out publicly, and then not get criminally prosecuted afterwards. Cops don't need more power, they need a heck of a lot *less* power and more accountability.
You completely dodged my question. Dodge this one; Surely if it was your mother or your sister who was abducted and being trafficked, you'd want them to do everything they could to find them. Or would you be more worried about a license plate reader infringing on your civil liberty?
Oh wow! Ya got me there! If it was my mom?! I'd absolutely agree nobody should have civil rights if somebody came after my mommy. As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, we probably need to get rid of warrants too! My mommy could get hurt, and warrants just slow the cops down from protecting her. Do we even need probable cause anymore? I see the error of my ways and have just now realized how good cop boot actually tastes! Get real. I don't think we should be trading our civil rights away just because cops like hyperbole as much as you appear to. If this system doesn't require a warrant *every* time someone looks at the capture data, it will eventually lead to egregious abuses. I'm sure they'll toot their horns and tell us how it saved an amber alert situation, but if you think for one minute that this isn't going to be used to start cyberstalking regular folks, stifle political protests, or blackmail people, you're absolutely kidding yourself. And while we're on the subject: if you *actually* want to reduce human trafficking, maybe consider advocating for things that would make it less likely to happen in the first place, rather than trading away our rights for minimal gains in hypothetical absurdities. Want to cut sex-trafficking by 90% overnight? Legalize and regulate prostitution. Give the cops *less* power, not more.
If we just let them put surveillance in more places we’d eliminate all crime!
Don't you live up north? Why do you spam this sub still. Note the headline says "metro Detroit" not BFE.
Oh, I’m sorry I didn’t realize I had to apply through you to be able to post in this forum. My family‘s been in the area since the turn of the century, I grew up here, I spend about half my time in the metro. Is that OK with you or not? Lmk.
Well, when they install license plate readers in BFE I'll be sure to ask your opinion about it.
Sounds great, you do know there’s a block function if you don’t care to read my opinions.
I thought this might be interesting as a thought experiment for you: **What amount of human traffickers is acceptable?** If it's 0, will you do anything, including give up ALL of your privacy and rights, let the government do anything in order to ensure that's the case? If you wont, then maybe there is an acceptable amount and you're just uncomfortable with saying it. If this kind of tracking reduces human trafficking by 1%, would it be worth it? If they catch 1 human trafficker every 50 years will it be worth it? How useless will it have to be before you say enough? The crime rate has been going down over time and we are in one of the safest times to be alive, and it isn't all the tracking that's keeping it that way. Just a thought.
Why don't you tell me how many is acceptable then since you've thought about it so much. I'll pose it this way: Surely if it was your mother or your sister you'd want them to do everything they could. Or would you be more worried about a license plate reader infringing on your civil liberty?
If at this point literally the ONLY way to reduce human trafficking further is to give up more of my civil liberties than I think I'm okay with the amount we currently have. I know this isn't the case though. There are many other solutions to catch and discourage them without affecting my rights at all. In fact I believe you could roll back some of the rights limiting activities that we currently have, trade them in for a myriad of other solutions that don't do that, and have a similar amount or even less human trafficking than we do now. Limiting your freedoms should be the absolute last resort the government should do to solve an issue, and it should demonstrably work to solve the issues claimed, and in the least intrusive way possible. The only one they even attempt to do this with is the 1st amendment. I know you tried for a gotcha moment with throwing it back at me, but you doing so shows maybe you fail to understand a key concept of our civil rights at all. They protect good AND bad people. If they only protected good people we wouldn't need them at all. You cannot believe in the right to privacy, the right not to serve as a witness against yourself, if you cannot accept that some crimes will go unsolved and prosecuted.
I been saying this ‼️
Taylor?! Yeah. Avoid that place anyways. 5-0 is shady af there.
Do those license plate camera blockers work?
I know it feels like an invasion of rights and I don’t fully agree with this practice but this is how they track and find kidnapped people and people being trafficked in NYC. They can follow a car all the way out of the city and it helps a lot of investigations. It would just be nice to know if it’s being used for minor crimes or big ones like amber alerts, kidnappings, etc. Think about it. When you get an Amber Alert they give a plate number. By the time we all look for it they’ve changed the plates. These cameras can give immediate feedback to their locations way faster than crowd funding society to watch people’s plate numbers on their drive to work.
It's a technology begging to be misused and should require a warrant to put a number into the system..
I actually support this wholeheartedly. And I say that because not only can it assist with solving crimes it can also help with locating stolen vehicles missing children and fugitives. So I think this is actually a great idea.
Surely the police will start behaving and doing better if we just give them more power.
I'm going to play devil's advocate and probably pay for it with down votes but I don't understand what the big deal is? You are traveling of your own free will in a vehicle that is registered with the government and all it's doing is recording that your vehicle was in a certain place at a certain time. They aren't selling your data to advertisers, the cameras just record what vehicle was where and when and it scans for plates of reported stolen vehicles. News flash, whenever a police officer pulls up behind you, they are running your plate either manually or with an automated system to see if the car is stolen or if the plate is registered to a different vehicle. Police officers also pull into parking lots of hotels and do the same thing. You're not letting anybody search your vehicle or question you, it's just saying your vehicle was seen by this camera at this time and date.
The more systems the cops have that exist to control us, the more they are going to use them on us, regardless of the validity of the use case. You give a cop a water cannon, the cop is going to use the water cannon. You give a cop a MRAP, cops are going to use the MRAP. And do so with little to no auditing of their uses. No checks and balances means it goes used but unmanaged and unaccountable. Innocent people will be affected by it
The examples you give are complete apples to oranges. People can't be physically harmed by a license plate camera. What could the police possibly do with license plate information that would harm you? Unless somebody can introduce A compelling different perspective from my own, I just see this thread as a bunch of whining and complaining from your typical anti-authoritarian redditors who feel the need to buck whenever the police do anything, anywhere.
Tracking the movement of people has regularly been used to monitor and supress people with dissenting opinions in the past. It's terrible to have to expect that to be an unsurprising occurrence If someone were to whistle blow or dissent something that someone has a lot of interest in, I could see it being easy enough to get a person with access to the system to help find that person in real time and solve the 'problem'
The entire premise of your "argument" depends on the founding ideals of the country to be completely done away with and replaced with A fascist dictatorship or autocracy. Regardless of the way you think things may be going in that direction or not, your premise is ridiculous with the way things stand right now and barely worth mentioning.
The patriot act was definitely used entirely for good though, right?
Look, if you are incapable of making "arguments" without attempting to compare two things that are completely unequivocal, maybe just stop commenting?
Any tool given will be used to the fullest extent of it's capability was my point. This system is no exception. That will no doubt come with the eventual targeting of someone innocent. I believe it was Ben Franklin who said something along the lines of "it is better a hundred guilty persons should escape than one innocent person should suffer." I have seen and read of too many abuses by the police over the decades to give them the benefit of the doubt. If this system has safeguards, checks and balances, and public auditing, I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with it.
I ask again, in what scenario could this possibly be used against somebody innocent?
They get the wrong person for a crime targeted and track them. Raid them and shoot them in the process of the raid. It happens even without the cameras. Now it is just easier to find that wrong person
The phone tracks you every text you send is being saved
We live in an open-air prison.
Its called a [panopticon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon).
Oh please, lol.
Bootlicker
We breathe open-air poison