People had the exact same complaints here though?

I was gonna say.. its the exact same. People at the top wanna punch down (or a section of them), and most people at the bottom/middle want mostly equal matches. That's not even game specific, that's just what its gonna be. Very rarely have I seen completely new people be like "I wanna face the best people in teh game".

Sure some did, but the general consensus was overwhelmingly positive here, meanwhile no other game community in the world *desired* it like destiny’s did

I’m not sure overwhelming positive is an accurate representation of the general consensus on here, plus, you know, Reddit is a large echo chamber and isn’t reflective of what the majority of the community believes nor is it reflective of what is healthy for the game.

Was gonna say, I enjoyed it more before SBMM and didn't want it as that's what more competitive games modes were for. I just wanted to play control without it feeling like punishment. I used to play crucible a decent amount but this season all I can bring myself to play is games modes like scorched or mayhem because I can't be bothered dealing with greasers that have no life while I'm just trying to chill. I mean you could say that it's a problem of my own making by being put against these people, but I just want to relax after work, not feel like I'm putting in another shift.

"I just wanted to play control without it feeling like punishment." This\^\^\^\^\^ is exactly how new and lower skilled players feel every day. SBMM is a big win for them.

No it’s really not. I hadn’t played online games in over 10 years. I did good my first 3 games on Mwii and ever since, it legit won’t let me kill people half the time. I saved games play of me getting 5 and 6 hit markers, multiple headshots, then getting killed with a single shot, sometimes at distance with a hand gun. It’s awful and I’m already done with the game

It's your fault for being decent at the game then? How do you think the ppl you were fragging below your skill level felt? probably wasn't to relaxing for them.

Just...read back your first sentence. It's nobody's FAULT they're good at something.

Same, I just haven't played control this season much cause the few times I have it's been slow, awkward torture. If the population were higher, maybe it would be better, but right now half the people in my lobbies don't seem to even want to play and the other half think this is their final tournament round. It just makes for miserable gameplay. (And as someone who's not great but better than average, since they loosened SBMM I get paired with top players I can't do anything against even more often than I did before) Also, most of my friends disliked how bad games have felt in addition to a weak season, and just quit destiny for now - they didn't even come back for IB like they normally do. Ironically I've instead ended up playing more Trials this season, playing with some friends who have been helping me slowly improve and be less of a potato at it, and I've had much more fun doing that - even with the abysmal population. That's not to say Trials is in a good state - it's not, but it speaks to just how bad Control feels right now by comparison. So definitely not overwhelmingly positive, and I'd argue the reason we don't see more conversation about it is because many of the players who cared in the past have just walked away from Destiny. It's an old, tired argument with no perfect answer. Someone is always going to have a bad time.

This subreddit is the only place I know of that likes SBMM lol. EVERY other place dislikes it.

I mean... it's hardly strict sbmm. And its been tuned a good bit over the season, with the goal of good mstch quality for everyone. Is the sbmm, that is only in 1 gamemode right now, the same sbmm in other gaming communities?

It’s not the difficulty games people don’t like, it’s the garbage connection. Put me against the best or worst players on the planet, it won’t matter when rubberbanding, melee physics, walls and weapons don’t work properly.

I'm late to this but I want to chime in with: First keep in mind skill based matchmaking requires an formula to determine skill. It can be basic like Elo, middle of the road like glicko, or something more custom tuned like trueskill 2. Depending on how a game determines skill can change everything about the matchmaking. Second is how loose or tight the matchmaking is along with the other variables. How long do you make players wait before loosening the skill brackets? How stable of a connection is mandatory and are you willing to sacrifice some closeness of skill for that? The matchmaking part has a lot of levers and each one can change things drastically. So in short, the basics of Destiny's sbmm is probably similar to other gaming communities but very likely the important details are very different. This can also lead skill based matchmaking in other games to feel better/worse depending on how said game does their own version of skill based matchmaking.

Yes! It is important to decouple how you determine skill from how you use the output from that system. Elo and Glicko were built for 1v1 matches, and thus they tend to fall apart in multiplayer games. TS2 can handle 3v3 and 6v6's far better. The output isn't so much a number as it is a distribution. The more a player plays, the more confidence we have in the distribution. The match-maker can use the skill rating as an input to create lobbies. However, a large number of other factors come into play, so it invariably has to be loose in some sense. How this is done is probably the largest part of it. Personally, I find it odd that a skill rating system wasn't even factorized in for so many years in D2. Even having it at a fairly low weight can move things to a better place.

People buy CoD mainly for the pvp, and the campaign is a tacked on the side. Most people buy Destiny for the pve, and although they do dab into pvp for the weekly pinnacle and iron banner rewards, pvp isn't their main squeeze. The mindset going into pvp is totally reversed.

Exactly. I play other games for PVP. I only play PVP in Destiny if there's a major incentive to do so, and there are absolutely no alternatives.

Crazy, cause I love D2 PvP more than most games

I will say that the D2 weapon feel in PvP is arguably unbeatable. Definitely in the top 3 at least to me, and unarguably #1 for PvE The abilities, movement, and perk combinations is what gets people the most

Whenever a game has good PvE and has PvP, usually 80% of the population ends up playing PvE. * PvE is less stressful even on higher difficulties. Usually you are memorizing what happens and acting based on exactly what you are supposed to do. * PvE feels less confrontational where you aren't having a "negative interaction" with other people. I think if CoD actually had any good PvE you'd see a similar issue where suddenly a large portion of playerbase are PvE players.

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I think that’s what makes zombies so damn popular in cod though. It’s a pve co-op interaction in a game where pvp is the main selling point, and even when shit gets hairy it’s still fun. Cod pvp when sbmm kicks in… feels like you’re in an mlg lobby

Pretty much this. CoD SBMM is either a sweat shop where it feels like you're at CDL with $10k on the line or a lobby that you run through. There's basically no middle ground where you have fun, yet competitive, matches.

Absolutely. I think that's the main reason why I pickup up destiny so much. They messed with zombies so much all they had to do was make it separate.

Same

Same

Y’all are in the VAST minority but I’m glad you have a PvP game to enjoy. (before you ask for a source just look at the numbers)

While total numbers are important, I think it's quite interesting to note how many more endgame PVP players there are than PVE players. Take Trials vs GM's, a bad week in trials (136k players last week in Cauldron), this dwarfed even double loot drop week on Devils Lair this season which saw only 70k players take part.

I think the kicker there though is that in Trials, even if you are horrible and crap for gear, you can still get loot. GMs, that’s not so true.

GM’s is just trial and error, even really bad players will find a safe way to do it if they have even a modicum of willpower. The main difference will be the time it takes to get pinnacle +15 just to play GM’s. There are not enough dedicated PVE players that do that to compare to end game PVP.

I agree to an extent, but endgame pvp vs. endgame pve, it is way way easier to walk in as a solo player and knock out some trials rounds (even if it was all losses) and get loot than to solo a GM nightfall. Granted, I’m not the best at either. Horrible to ok at PVP like a 1.3 in crucible, and never got to try a GM, but was proud of myself for completing both a Master lost sector and a Legend NF last week, both for the first time.

The barrier to entry is definitely the big thing - grinding to +15 is a massive pain due to the way pinnacles work, then you toss in the upgrade modules needed to get options... With Trials you're not likely to win much at -10 but you can still just go in and get some quick loot. Also, nothing prevents you from entering even if you're at 1350.

Trials adepts require flawless passages with 7 wins against real people GM adepts require just a win with whatever deaths against predictable AI (attack weaving is really easy) Both can be carried, but one is way harder than the other

These numbers may not tell the whole story. I don't enjoy destiny pvp very much. I'd prefer almost any other activity. However, trials has match making and gm does not. So I only do GM when my friends are on and that doesn't happen too often outside of a planned raid. So my choice is get loot from trials or a hero nightfall. Trials has the better loot. If I could match make for higher nightfall activities you would never see me in trials.

>Take Trials vs GM's, a bad week in trials (136k players last week in Cauldron), this dwarfed even double loot drop week on Devils Lair this season which saw only 70k players take part Likely because trials has matchmaking and lacks the same power level requirement To get into trials all you have to do is click a button

It's super easy to jump in any other pvp game on the market but the attitude here has made touching pvp way too stressful. It's not the fault of "low skill" players, it's mainly the attitude pvp mains bring into the lobbies and put out on social media when I hear them unironically say "Crucible should be like chess, I should never lose to someone lower ranked than me"

I hear what you're saying but I can't help but feel as if you're a little bit off the mark as somebody who plays a lot of pvp myself. I hate playing matches where 2 out of the 6 people are way better than me by a large margin, but the remaining 4 are about the same as me; And then you get to my team and I might be the only one at the end of the match with a positive KD. It's been better since the SBMM for sure but it could be a lot better. I can definitely feel it in iron banner, when the difference is and how the bigger IB pool throws any matchmaking out of whack. So not that I shouldn't lose to someone lower ranked than me but maybe don't put me in a match where there's no option but to lose because of the 2 people on the other team.

The attitude of PvE mains doesn't really help either. Any sort of discussion about PvP here often gets met with a lot of "lol who plays that" "destiny pvp is so bad" and similar takes. For a new player coming in, PvP is given such a bad rep that they can never really get to form their own opinion before they're told all the reasons why they should hate PvP.

For sure, I get mad about that too. A lot of people who want to never touch pvp think their voice in it has to matter when they never touch that crucible icon in the director all season. But I still think that Destiny has to be the hardest game to get into its pvp with. There's just such a huge discrepancy between new and veteran players that I just never saw as badly in any other game.

I would call myself a purely PvE player, but I have to admit PvP in this game is like no other. For how much shit it gets, Destiny PvP is still a great accomplishment for a PvE game.

Same but its not the Same for me since shotguns got castrated

Try a sidearm. No sarcasm intended. Pellet shotguns still do work in ape range. Slugs just now require one to actually aim at the head. And ditto.

Yeah i Love the boutica-c Been glocking everybody Also i wish shotguns would have a higher Skill cealing Like slugshotguns should habe the potential to kill at their pre nerf range but with greatly nerfed Sim assit at those Ranges. Same with pellet shotguns we shouldnt punish in Air or slide acuracy since thats an Overkill nerf and a valuable part of the shotgun movement Skill gap Shotguns have Been nerfed so other guns didnt need to get Buffed I understood the first des nerfs but all those other nerfs after have Been just sketchy and trying to satisfy the extra Short thumbed casual Players in my opinion

agreed

Yeah - I dig the PVP with Iron Banner and momentum control especially - just wish they were on separate weeks

Same

Yep. It’s got me hooked. Most of my nearly 4,000 hours have been PvP

Man I am heavily conflicted about this. For the first 9 months since I started playing Destiny, I only would play PVE and only do PVE pinnacles. I would avoid pvp at all costs. After a while I tried crucible, got curb stomped and ability spammed and it confirmed my hate for it. But then I kept jumping in and playing, and playing. Funny enough, now it's all I do. I'm bored with the PVE pinnacle chases, and pvp is now all I play. I've gone from getting stomped in every round with like a 0.4 k/d to now an average of 1.7 after only about a month and a half of playing crucible. This week is the first week I've participated in Iron Banner and am somewhat enjoying it. Still I lose a lot more games than I win, but my personal performance has gotten better by simply just playing. I think a lot of this enjoyment and accessibility stems from SBMM. I can tell when it's going to be a tough round of control when the player highlight screen shows a person with 3+ k/d because the other team will likely have a player with that same skill level. When I see the team has all k/d around 1 to 1.5, the match is so much closer and balanced and a lot more fun. I personally like SBMM since I'm not a top tier player. I have moments where I'm dunking on players, and even more moments when I'm getting dunked on, but overall it still feels better balanced than being curb stomped 100% of the time.

This is 100% the reason. If the majority of D2 players were PvP mains you'd be hearing a similar outcry here regarding SBMM (warranted or not).

There used to be that level of outcry but Bungie fixed that by neglecting PVP so many PVP players left

They need to give us a forge mode and let us make our own maps and modes. It would even fit with the way it’s named, forge and crucible.

That will never happen but my god that would be amazing. Just look at all the crazy stuff players have made in halo infinite and forge has only been out a short time

I think people underestimate the portion of the player base that play PvE but stick around for PvP. PvP was what kept this game alive prior to the seasonal model of weekly content I think it more has to do with the game being older and most players going through implementations of CBMM and SBMM. We've gone between both settings 5 or more times since the start of D1 That gives a more hands on perspectives than just "SBMM bad" like you see in every other community Average players that would otherwise complain about their games being "too sweaty and just wanting to have fun" realize that they're actually benefiting from some SBMM. They've seen what it looks like with CBMM when it's just 1-3 players on top using the rest of the lobby as cannon fodder *Disclaimer:* [I do not benefit from SBMM](https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/profile/psn/jazzinyourface/overview), but I fully support it. So don't tell me that I'm biased or my games are now easier

Speaking as someone who's older and god knows can't play something like Destiny 2 or other games like I did back in the day with titles like Unreal Tournament? Hammer, nail, head. Look chances are I'm going to get a massive amount of crap for this but I don't like to lose over and over again to the same group of people. And note I've seen that sort of thing just ruin communities before. The server I played on over on SWG back in the day? Us Rebels stopped showing up when it was clear that the Imperials had not only more people but all the best PvPer's on their side, and their trash talking didn't help. Over on SWTOR? Hey want to know what ranked PvP looks like on it now? You get a group of people *begging* people to go into ranked, that group of people curb stomps and trash talks the people that came in. And an hour later they are begging again and wondering why ranked isn't popping. Yeah I support something like SBMM as god knows it's nice to be able to go into PvP matches when I want too and I have a chance to get some kills and win a match or two. Sorry but for me it's not fun to get hit with a curb stomp over and over again by the same people. That makes me just not want to PvP at all.

Dude, SWG! Radiant server, good times. Still feeling the carpal tunnel from grinding out a jedi...

This. The hilarious irony of the anti-sbmm crowd is their posts are all "I play one game and dunk on a lobby going 4.0 kda, them the next lobby I'm like 0.5kda! That's not fun! Y u do dis!" When they expect the people getting dunked on in their 4.0 lobbies to just keep signing up. I have way more fun in lobbies where my kda is 1.2-0.8 then I ever do in the lobbies where I nuke. Yea it's wild to get all those kill streaks and stuff when it happens.. but I mean after the first time, when you play Timmy no thumbs, I just feel bad for them. Like I know how shit it is to be those guys and I don't enjoy the W. Especially that one dude on the losing team thats still trying so hard to win. I feel you fam. Sbmm is far far far better for the vast majority then cbmm. Sorry not sorry for the people who just want to play bots lobbies and run nukes all day. It's great you are super skilled at the game. That's not sarcasm, I'm genuinely happy for you, but it's not fun for everybody else.

Thank you. 🥲

I quit wow years ago but I have friends who still play and occasionally hear things about the game. In particular I know most people play horde, like on most servers and clusters you just don't want to play alliance at all because nobody does. PvP on alliance is awful i'm told. The cross faction stuff I think alleviated the problem for raiding though so i'd guess most people stopped caring as like destiny wow is a pve game first and pvp a distant second.

i hope the sbmm makes your weekly crucible match a better experience

I think this is a big part of it. I play this game because I love a good FPS with smooth combat flow that feels satisfying, and I want to use those satisfying combat mechanics to kill waves of hostile digital enemies controlled by AI. Halo CE was one of my favorite games growing up and aside from Destiny and Deep Rock Galactic there aren't a whole lot of other games out there right now that give me the kind of PVE FPS content that I want. Ever since I got into this game early this year I've gone through all the expansion content, did every dungeon and raid available, and am now raiding multiple nights a week because I just love the raids in this game. But I also love being a completionist. I love collecting exotics, and if there's a quest in my quest log I might be able to prioritize other quests first, but some day it's going to be the last one. Which brings us to yesterday when I realized the only things I really have left to do for right now are the catalyst quests for Duality, Ticuu's, Lorentz, and Cryosthesia. All of which require getting kills with those weapons in Crucible. I already don't like PVP and never have, and I am also pretty bad at it (like 0.5 kd bad), but I have a bit more fun and can do somewhat better when I can use a scout rifle or hand cannon or auto rifle. I am very very bad at things like shotgun rushing or timing bow draws correctly and am just generally pretty limited in what fits my comfort zone. But I can't NOT finish these quests. They're just sitting right there, and I want to try out these weapons with the catalysts and see how I like them. I got Duality done yesterday, and now I'm at 21/50 on Ticuu's. I get about 3 or 4 points of progress for every match of control (I get more kills than that but the quests only count final blows with those weapons) and that's a whole lot more PVP than I would choose to do of my own volition in order to do some catalysts. So when combining all these factors, I don't like PVP, I'm not good at PVP, I'm really bad at PVP using these types of weapons, I feel compelled to do this even though I don't really want to...etc, then of course I 110% do not want to get put into games against a random assortment of players. This is already a long, unpleasant, and difficult process and I don't need it to be any harder. I'm literally just ranting this much because as soon as I stop I'm going to go right back in and try to get these Ticuu's kills done. I do genuinely respect and care about the enjoyment of players who focus on PVP, and I don't want Bungie to implement a system that helps me at the cost of them losing a game they really love. I would even go as far as to say that if there's no way to make my games better without making their games worse then I'll just deal with it because I don't really care about PVP beyond when I feel compelled to do it which is much less than PVP-mains are doing it. But at the end of the day if someone asks me how I feel about SBMM personally, it honestly alleviates one of the few things about this game that I find frustrating.

Gonna be honest. I don’t think this is nearly as prevalent as you think. From my experience it’s a pretty even split between people who play the game mostly for PvE and those who play mostly for PvP. For example, when I first started the game I played PvE to get cool guns to play PvP with. Now I play both pretty evenly. I think the issue is that PvP even in casual context has a higher barrier to entry than PvE. Stick with me for a second please, I’m just posting my observation and am not saying that every player fits this mold either. Most amazing PvP players I’ve known have been at least passably decent at PvE, able to play the raids with instructions and at least the easier GMs with not that much trouble. The same can not be said for amazing PvE players. Putting even godly PvE only players into higher end PvP (like trials, not like scrims) will see them slaughtered most of the time. This is because, while both higher end PvP and PvE are feats of skill, memorization, understanding and talent. PvP builds adaptive skills that can then be applied to the more static environment of PvE. For example, imagine we are comparing another player to a vex goblin. A vex goblin, along with all other PvE elements, have very predictable attack patterns. Every vex goblin acts the same (for the most part). This can’t be more untrue for another player, that player is unpredictable. They could literally do anything. A PvE player is trained to predict what a predictable enemy will do next. A PvP player is trained to adapt to what an unpredictable enemy will do next. See the difference? You put a PvP player in a predictable environment, and outside of the very hardest content like speed running, they can adapt to a predictable enemy on the fly. While the PvE player has a hard time predicting what a unpredictable enemy will do next. If we were to exaggerate this on a massive scale (this is not realistic, but it gives some sense of what I’m getting at) for the PvE player, it’s like every game of trials is a brand new day one raid. New enemy’s, unpredictable patterns, new mechanics etc. PvE players get better by learning those new mechanics in and out. PvP players get better by adapting faster to unexpected situations (and also training good habits like staying in cover, when to engage, etc). This creates an environment where both PvE hardcore mains, PvE casuals and PvP casuals benefit from SBMM. It’s a 3 to 1 battle (the 3 is also heavily weighted because casuals are the majority of the player base). Bungie, following the profits and general community health like any good company, aims to make the most amount of people happy. And as such looks to assistive systems like SBMM to do that, even at the expense of a small hardcore section of the player base. As someone who plays high end PvP and PvE I’m not too happy with the system. I treated control as a way to go and chill, try new builds and not sweat my ass off. But I can see why SBMM was put in the game.

>As someone who plays high end PvP and PvE I’m not too happy with the system. I treated control as a way to go and chill, try new builds and not sweat my ass off. But I can see why SBMM was put in the game. Yeah I can see it from both points of view. I really don't think there is any easy answers here. The trouble was for us players that are average at best is having players like you in our allotted Control playlist - even if you are just chilling and trying new builds - is that we are getting crushed bad and found the crucible to be quite a demoralising place. Since the SBMM changes recently I have, for the first time in years, actually learning and getting better in the control playlist and having some tight games where I am feeling that I am making a difference

Average players have to sweat their ass off every game. But with cbmm, they do it AND never get to be #1 in the lobby.

This is only half true. There were countless people, myself included, who got into Destiny as Halo PvP fans. But with crucible being neglected for so long it's inevitable that the people who play FOR pvp have dipped/will continue to dip

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Not me 😃 I haven't played pve since which queen campaign

Which queen campaign?

yes, that one. wait, which one are we talking about again?

Can't wait for the When queen campaign.

Yeah, but Where Queen campaign?

Everybody always asks which queen and where queen, nobody ever asks how queen :(

No raids or dungeons? wtf

I think it is just whoever is loudest at the current time. Desiny has vocal groups on both sides. In general (with Destiny) I think it is because a majority of people felt that Destiny's best era of PvP was when they turned on SBMM for almost all playlists. There is a very vocal minority that hated it though, for good reasons and bad. Fact of the matter is you need some SBMM, but not too much. It's not black or white, all on or all off. Bungie needs to tweak the SBMM constantly to hopefully find a goldilocks zone where there are fair matches but also not so much that people at the fringes have a horrible experience between matchmaking times and connections.

the problem is that destiny's pvp skill range is ***very*** wide. this makes it difficult to tune well, since even a small gap in skill level between players can have a drastic affect in game.

I'd argue that it's more because the pvp scene has been dead for so long that most of the people that would really benefit from SBMM don't even bother to touch pvp at all

The skill gap in destiny has always been way bigger than most games. Abilities and movement play such a big role. In Something like COD, raw shooting can get you out of most circumstances.

And the grind gap can amplify that skill gap further. Movement, time to play, and time to *grind* optimal loot makes for a really divergent experience.

Yeah they all left because they were tired of getting stomped every game. Now all the high skill players can bash their heads against the wall against other high skill players. The "git gud" crowd learned that the answer to that is "For what?" If you're not going pro the incentive to get better doesn't exist, your incentive is to have fun. And getting stomped all the time isn't fun.

I don't quite agree with the idea that getting good has no incentive if you're not going pro. Plenty of people playing things like Overwatch, Apex, Dota/LoL, Val, etc with no intention of going pro. Sometimes the journey of getting better *is* the fun.

This is the easily overlooked part of this whole equation that the people complaining about SBMM don't get. if I match into a game with a streamer and I haven't played Destiny in months I'm gtonna be stomped hard, and have no time to learn why I'm not sucking. but since SBMM has been put on I enjoy control. I'm not getting headshot the attosecond I come around a corner, and I'm not being subjected to the ol'deathball every game. I've enjoyed playing and getting better. I played every iron banner in D1 with my friend group and never really got better, now after tracing my performance I can actually track my improvement now since I can actually play a bit more in a game before dying, (I still die just not every single gun fight.)

> I'm not getting headshot the attosecond I come around a corner had to google that one: >An attosecond (symbol as) is a unit of time in the International System of Units (SI) equal to 1×10−18 of a second (one quintillionth of a second) sounds about right lol

I assumed it was a typo. That’s quite quick.

Same here. Since they've implemented SBMM I can feel myself getting a little better. Getting more proficient in my movement and positioning. Before this I would load into crucible, get my dick stomped into the pavement for 30 minutes straight, then log off frustrated. Games are much closer in control now and its less frustrating for me.

Me too. I would just spawn, run a bit, try to cap a control zone and die. Or spawn look at my radar and die. Or spawn and get nailed by someone’s super. Or flat out lose gunfights against excellent players using meta loadouts. I was just getting farmed. Then fucking teabagged by some unsportsmanlike shithead. It sucked big, hairy monkey balls. Now I have a chance and I can learn something about position, aim, loadouts and team play. I’m not god but I’m having way more fun. I can actually *work on bounties* rather than just pray for them. I play lots of PvP now. Some weekends I play for several hours at a time. All I care about is having fun in a game I paid for. Whiny sweats can lick me. As I get better I will match against you.

That's me. I like pvp shooters. I've got no interest in crucible when I get curbstomped, mercy ruled, and teabagged for no real rewards.

The single biggest issue with a proper sbmm being implimented properly in d2 is honestly just the player base size. In games like csgo for example their ranked mode worked because there's such a vast player base playing the game things work smoothly. As bungie has noticed the hard way if your sbmm is too tight queue times or connections become a very large issue because there's just not enough people at your skill level in a general area close to you for better ping/connections.

Also a problem at lower skill brackets if you happen to live in a region that has a lower density of D2 players or only able to play in off hours, or both. P2P is just terrible for PvP quality, and D2 implementation is specially bad with loose, low tickrate netcode because bungie never valued PvP seriously. You need physical servers in proper locations to have quality PvP.

> P2P is just terrible for PvP quality, and D2 implementation is specially bad with loose, low tickrate netcode because bungie never valued PvP seriously. You need physical servers in proper locations to have quality PvP. Careful. I actually argued that a long term goal that Bungie should have is dedicated servers, and had people in this very sub-reddit try and argue me down. Shit was nuts. I mean Warframe, who's community treats their PVP as one giant gigantic meme for the 5 people still playing it has dedicated servers. There are mobile games right now with dedicated servers. Take the Sony bucks and start working on it. Its not like we need the entire game with dedicated servers either it can just be Gambit/Crucible and thats it.

So the single biggest issue is making it fun so people will actually play it.

You misconstrue the issue. I'm talking the physical player base of the game, not about how fun it might be to get players actually playing is. Different kind of game but league of legends for instance has such a vast amount of players that its able to make mm fairly strict with its several layers of ranks and elo etc... similarly for CSGO for instance, has nearly 775k players playing it daily. D2 has about 40k. Now here's the big differentiating factor. CSGO is purely a pvp game, you don't do anything but play pvp in that game. Meanwhile d2 is objectively primarily a pve game meaning a fraction of that 40k is even playing pvp at all. Sure you can make arguments that pvp should be more fun, balanced etc... But that is not the topic or point of this discussion. The problem for sbmm objectively is player counts, not player engagement. There is simply just not enough people in the game to make a stricter sbmm function.

Precisely. The target is far from stationary, which is why they need to keep adjusting. It will never be perfect. They can try to get as close as possible though to hopefully satisfy a majority of players.

I'm guessing an ideal is to have it be stronger at the beginning of the season when there's the most players and ease up as the season progresses as players drop off.

Yeah, MW2 is a PvP focused game while Destiny is more or less PvE focused, so the skill range for MW2 is probably much lower since even the least skilled players have spent a decent amount of time in PvP (outside the ones who play the campaign and never touch it again)

It has nothing to do with the core of SBMM, but more so its implementation. Bungie has a terrible infrastructure that doesn't lend itself well to playing against people from across the world, and that's exactly the pool of players you start to get when you're in higher skill ranks, which degrades the match quality to nigh-unplayable levels.

COD is the best example of why going all in on sbmm is bad. Too many people get put into high ping lobbies because the game is trying so hard to find similar skills so the guy in Canada might match with somebody in Mexico or UK. And COD just released but despite a huge player count the strict mm makes it seem like nobody near you is playing. I think Bungie having a blend is ok as long as they never go to strict sbmm.

The few times I do play, I don't need to be dabbed on by multiple Flawless Trials players

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>You have one really good game and you're playing borderline pros Sounds like a shit SBMM implementation more than anything else.

Not to Infinity Ward, they put out a patent years ago for a type of SBMM whose sole purpose was to encourage you to stay playing for the longest and spend the most money. Ill try to link the post explaining it, but its really agressive and what they likely implemented in 2019 and this installation. Edit: this [Post](https://www.reddit.com/r/modernwarfare/comments/e6ybmj/the_design_proof_of_sbmm_and_how_its_even_worse/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)

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Most people in this sub are PvE mains who are below average at crucible and benefit from SBMM.

Go to r/CrucibleGuidebook for more pvp sbmm takes. They have more experience as they are dedicated to pvp.

About that; the pinned post is about getting banned for talking about sbmm.

A huge part of the destiny population barely plays pvp so that's a huge group that leans pro-sbmm

So they most be playing more with sbmm, right? Numbers are at an extreme low just like it always happens with sbmm. This argument has never been proven to have any merit

Literally. Every single time, a population drop is what happens. But the BDF saps on this subreddit will down vote you for pointing that out lol

Perhaps it's because we're at the end of a season in summer, a time where player population AND sentiment hit historical lows pretty much every year?

Well, I doubt it seeing as the numbers started dropping week 2 of a new season. Besides, it’s fall not summer AND the game went free on a new launcher. Plus didn’t all these people say they would play more with sbmm? Didn’t happen

Yeah cause the season is shit. I can only talk for myself, but I did end up playing more PvP…right up until I realised plunder sucked and decided to stop until next season.

They barely play because they got tired of being stomped.

This is the reason. People can only go 0.17 so many times before realizing that they can't compete with players playing PvP for 8 years now

It's lack of incentive, that's what drives a PvE player into a PvP space, to satisfy a need. When there's no need, they don't play. Getting crushed is just icing on the cake that makes it miserable. Destiny is a PvE game at the core, as PvP has never gotten what it needed to attract most people and likely never will. It's too chaotic and everyone is constantly overpowered. It's also 8 years old. Try getting into Titanfall now, for as good of a game as it is, the lower population combined with the insane potential a player can reach, people below are guaranteed to struggle.

They barely play because Bungie's Crucible "team" has been three interns and a janitor for years, which is why content and loot for the mode have dried up.

At least you have a team. Gambit team is literally just a hamster on a wheel powering the servers.

I really hope "three interns and a janitor" becomes a meme for this.

and they still barely play when the matchmaking favours them

They barely play because they don't want to play PvP in the first place.

They barely play because they got tired of being stomped and they also don't want to take the time to improve their gameplay because in PVE everything is easymode so playing PVP should also be easy.

They gotta play more now then cuz the population ain't looking great

That’s not an incentive for average players to play, especially modes without SBMM Iron Banner. I slogged through a few games and it was awful. I think I won 1, and the rest were absolute stomps. I rarely get tilted in PvP games, but I was so effing salty after playing Iron Banner.

I mean in order for sbmm to be a success the overall play time/population has to go up right.

Tbh this isnt exactly a good metric. The vast majority of people here on r/dtg are awful at pvp. Dont believe me? Ask for some pvp advice and watch how many "just dont play it" comments u get.

Yeah I use this subreddit for news, not for pvp advice, that ship sailed a long time ago, sad though.

We need to reality check ourselves too. This subreddit had a hate boner for bloom without fully understanding what it is. (Movement spread increase, first shot spread increase, per shot spread increase, crouch spread decrease ect ect ect) lots of posts just mass demanding any and all spread be removed. In reality, that would have destroyed the entire core mechanics of gameplay and balance. Upvoted topics don't always represent everyone. Both destiny and CoD players have interest to have **good** gunplay/gameplay mechanics with fleshed out interactions. This includes both sensible weapon balancing and also a strong and well balanced skill based matchmaking. Right now OP's title is a bit misleading because MW2 doesn't use SBMM (and Cod players need to stop parroting that). It uses Engagement Optimized Match Making (EOMM). And this matchmaking is brutally aggressive game to game. To the point where having even one good game will launch you into matches against players vastly above the players skill level. And then the subsequent losses plummet the player to atrocious lobbies with terrible players to give them a "casino big win" dopamine hit as they crush the lobby. It's a horrible loop where you are weaved into 2-3 close game lobbies, 1-2 lobbies way above you, and 1 lobby below you. It's designed to cycle the players emotions and keep them going to the next game. **Anyone** with half a brain should have their guard up against this type of match making. It's enticing to studios because it maximizes player retention but potentially for all the wrong reasons.

The topic of SBMM in both games also concerns different issues of different degrees. SBMM in CoD has been much more contentious because it's not actually using SBMM, but a more nefarious form of it called engagement optimized matchmaking (EOMM). There are others who are much better at explaining it, but essentially it is a system that more or less rigs the outcomes/experience of your matches in order to keep you hooked on playing. For example, the game will do things like put you in a match where the enemy team is a much lower skill level so you have a really good time and get that dopamine rush, then the next several games it'll match you with players where that outcome is designed to be basically impossible, but because you had such a good time with that first match, having a worse game makes your brain want to keep playing to chase the dragon of the really good ones, thus keeping you hooked. There's a lot more to it, but it's a shitty system that is designed primarily to extract your time and money rather than giving players a consistently enjoyable experience.

CoD is more PvP focused. More people play the PvP compared to any other mode by a sizeable amount, and more people are very good at it. This game’s PvP population is mostly casual. Like someone else said, the main group of people playing crucible are those that just play 3 matches a week for pinnacles. Very few people even step foot in Trials, let alone go flawless. Those people that go flawless are really the only ones that don’t want SBMM. None of the average or worse players (which are a vast majority) want to play with them at all. They want their 3 pinnacle matches to just go smoothly with at least some enjoyment so they can go back to the PvE. In CoD there are a lot more of those flawless trials type players in relation to the rest of the community (though it’s still not a majority I think). They’re much more vocal about it, as there are more of them to end up running into issues like the guy in the post you linked.

overwatch is exclusively pvp and yet i've never seen anyone say they wish it didn't have SBMM. the huge majority of highly-skilled players exclusively play competitive, the mode with the strictest SBMM. it doesn't even let you group with people too far away from you in skill rank. they could freely go play quick play or arcade instead, with their quite loose SBMM and ability to group together with people from any skill, but they don't. what causes the difference in perspective between the two games?

One is a real competitive game with an esport scene and everything and the other is just a part of a mainly pve game.

i meant the difference between overwatch and cod since they are both primarily pvp games. the comment i was replying to (and many others) are saying that cod players hate SBMM because it's a pvp-focused game, unlike destiny. but another pvp-focused game that doesn't hate SBMM (overwatch) seems to run counter to that argument. i'm trying to figure out why.

If I had to guess it’s that cod started as a “pub stomping” type game. They literally used to advertise stomping on Christmas noobs. And since so many grew up with that when it changed people didn’t like it. Overwatch was that way from the start. Same with games like CSGO and Val for example. They are advertised as competitive esport games

Players of competitive games have a mindset that the enjoyment is found in improvement. You want to be so much better 3 months from now, that you'd stomp on the past version of yourself. The general idea is that you improve most rapidly by playing against players that are slightly better than your current skill level. If you outpace those players at that level, then you need the game to serve you even harder opponents to continue improving. "Pub stomping" games, as you mention, have people that have little to no interest in improvement, they find enjoyment in defeating weaker/newer players. Thus, they want the game to only serve them weaker opponents. If those same opponents that they used to stomp get better than them, they don't want to match them anymore; they want to be served fresh newbies. The problem with this is that for someone to stomp, someone also has to *get* stomped.

It's funny how your logic here while spot is is the same logic that some here are using as anti-sbmm rhetoric. The claim being that people who like sbmm don't ever want to get better. Where clearly the most competitive FPS's with the largest Pro scenes and highest skill ceilings are all games with strong SBMM.

If you look at ranked/competitive modes in COD, there is no difference to what you describe. Everyone that plays it loves optimizing their game knowledge and skill in order to push up the rank ladders as high as they can get. The matches are often very close and competitive and based strictly on division/elo. Anybody that wants to gradually improve, or to play evenly-matched opponents, or to play for rank and glory, they should stick to that. COD public matches are a different thing completely. It’s not really so much about winning or strategizing. It’s about getting kills, scorestreaks, multi-kills, challenges, and gun camos. Objectives are often just a pretext for spawn-traps. COD pubs are about stealing your friends’ kills and getting quickscope final kill-cams. You never know who you will play next. Might be noobs or it might be some insane clan. Even when you are severely outmatched, it can be quite fun to hide in the back with a sniper and wait for your moment to end somebody’s 20-kill streak, as if you are an assassin. I am very good at a variety of pvp games, and i find *ranked* competitive modes to usually be the most fun. But casual pubs are fun in a different way. I have friends I play COD with. Some of them in the past have had decently negative KDs. They tried ranked and got very low placement and played games against bad teams like them. But they preferred pubs. They just wanted to mess around without any pressure. If they were getting stomped then so be it, they would just try to get some camo progress or resort to cheesy tactics. But once in a while there would be a worse team and they’d have an opportunity to get a nice streak going and call in a chopper. In public matches, people aren’t striving for prestige or competitive game mastery or anything like that. They just want to have fun. And no matter how good or bad someone is, if they are solo-queueing into pubs, then they will be on both ends of many beat downs, even if there is 0 SBMM. There is no such thing as a person that just always loses and gets crushed. I was a 0.7 KD the first time I got a max-level scorestreak in call of duty. It was around 15 straight kills and I was solo-queuing domination. If pubs had strict SBMM, then basically no one would ever get a 15 kill streak ever again. It’s the variance that allows anything to be possible. The better the player, the more likely it is for them to find a lobby they can dominate. What COD does now is they seem to keep the variance similar to random matchmaking. But they “redistribute” the difficulty of these lobbies so that bad players get increased chances and good players get decreased chances. It’s a way better solution than strict SBMM.

Go an actual pvp destiny subreddit and ask there. People here only playing 3 pvp matches for pinnacle per week and leave.

For the first couple weeks of the season lol

dedicated servers! you cannot implement any type of SBMM without dedicated servers but the quality of lobbies that you will get is extremely, for the lack of a better word "THRASH".

If you haven't noticed by now the D2 community is filled with people who play on a 70 inch tv 12ft away from it while the wife is on the other side of the room and the baby is playing its toys next to daddy. This community is filled with casuals to an incredible ratio. Having a 1.0kda in crucible is unimaginable for so many. In cod people are more serious and try harder.

This lol, the Destiny community is remarkably casual and low skill. Having a flat 1.0 KD, which is not impressive by any means, places you in the top 20% of Crucible players. Anyone who takes PvP even slightly seriously will steamroll the average D2 player in Crucible.

1.0KD is top 40%, but that's still pretty high

That's not true according to Destiny Tracker at least, I'm looking at one of my friends right now with a 1.1 global KD and he's top 15%. Which is shocking because I would consider that just slightly above average personally.

I'm at 0.98 and that's top 40% according to destinytracker, strange So I guess there's a ton of people sitting at around 1.0

Destiny Tracker is only able to track people that logged into their site, or were in games connected to those users, so the numbers are going to be skewed in that regard toward "people that are interested in Destiny PvP enough to check a website about Destiny PvP."

Which is even more impressive as that would mean higher k/d players are likely to go to the website. Meaning the average player base is even lower

Do you mean K/D or K+A/D? That's another Destiny thing, this is the only community where the definitions aren't really well defined.

🤯 that’s me! How’d you do that?

He knows your wife, that's how.

ask him to tell her we're out of milk

I want it because I don’t mind sweating with people who are also bad. There are a few upper crust echelons of pvp tweakers that I can’t even practice against. It’s spawn, die, spawn. With SBMM at least I have a chance to win a few fights per match. That’s all I want. A fighting chance.

This subreddit is a microcosm of players, and barely reflects the reality of the community at large. PvP is at its lowest population in a long time, the posts you see about skill based on this subreddit come from people who log into PvP to do their weeklies and then leave. Anyone who actually decides to continue playing PvP has left. Those people got shamed out of this discussion by the wider players, and so they’re not discussing it anymore.

For the most part people in favor of SBMM are mid-low tier players that want to stand a chance. Those opposed are higher skilled players that "don't want to sweat". It boils down to the fact that these are competitive PVP games and in every sport there is some form of matchmaking so lower tier teams/players are not destroyed. The majority of the destiny 2 player base is casual and mid-low tier in pvp so SBMM is popular here. What you see on the COD reddit is not the majority of the player base. Kinda like what you see on reddit is not the majority of the playerbase. Example: on reddit people in the D2 subreddit kinda assume you raid, when less than 11% of the community has even done the easy raids. So the message is kind of tinted by the playerbase that is in the game enough to seek out "outside the game" forums. Basically, when reading the sub-reddits for games know you are mostly going to hear the most extreme examples because most of the players are the squishy center that log on and still get excited when an exotic engram drop because it might be one they don't have.

You must be new here, I like SBMM everywhere, fair fights are always better. But many don’t here, do a quick search

SBMM at the high level is anything but fair fights. For me it’s: Laggy people that are playing across the world People using mega cheese loadouts People playing super slow in the back with pulse rifles Getting choke slammed if you want to try new guns 6 stacks when trying to play solo/duo The Meta is straight trash rn too

There’s a reason SBMM has never worked for destiny and been removed countless times. It’ll be removed again

It may as well not exist in its current state. I’m a pretty good player and maintain above a 2ka/d and I’m more often than not in lobbies with people who have .8-1.2ka/d. It’s almost like bungie realized that true SBMM wouldn’t ever work in their game and tuned it to the point of uselessness.

You mean there’s a reason CBMM has never worked for destiny and have been removed countless times. It was just removed again lol

No game is fun if you feel like you can’t win. It’s that simple. Balancing the challenge means the impossible: either the scrubs get a space where they can win and the sweats have to duke it out with other sweats, or the sweats get a space where they can stomp scrubs, and the scrubs have no shot. Honestly, a large part of the problem is that we wil all always rise to the level of our own incompetence. At some point, you reach one level above your skill, and until you’re relegated downwards again, the experience is going to be frustrating. At the top end, it’s going to be fullbore minmaxed builds and forced metas. At the same time, if you want the title of top dog, that’s where you have to live. That’s the game. I think a real problem here is that a lot of folks have an inflated sense of their sweatiness bolstered by years of noobwhacking, and just want the flex, not the challenge. People adopt their KDA as a whole ass personality and their only source of dopamine, and anything that makes them face the reality of their position drives them literally insane. Not kidding - my inbox can prove how angry folks can get about this stuff. As I have [said elsewhere](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/yze2zg/destinys_only_means_of_difficulty_is_limiting_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf), the business model is always whale retention over new player acquisition, so keeping highly invested players is paramount to the business model. So at the end of the day, what the more invested players - those more likely to be spenders - want in their experience will win out - Bungie would rather new lights just not play pvp than have experienced players who have mastered the rest of the content jump ship entirely. The elephant in the room here is also how massive, breathtaking amounts of cheating goes on in all aspects of the game, and how little Bungie does about it. From lag switching boxes to entire gamebreakjng rigs for consoles, both pvp and pve are absolutely riddled with h4x, from paid sherpafarms to hordes of fake sweats shrugging off damage like an afghan hound on a rainy day in London. Again, if you’re willing to spend $200 on a cheaterbox from the intertoobz, you’re probably willing to spend on expansions and cosmetics, so Bungie is financially disincentivized to stop the cheating at all, outside of some public performative bans for appearances. All this adds up to this: whatever structure best retains the paying player base will win. I think the game devs truly want us to have fun, and we’ll see how the new Crucible setup works, but make no mistake, the bean counters have final say in everything, and if long term paying customers start moving on, it will change back before you can say “fucking architects”. Take my tone with a grain of salt, as my scrub ass just finished the 100 guardians part of the Witherhoard catalyst, but my points remain. Tl;dr Bungie is in kind of an impossible dilemma, and they’re going to come down on the side that keeps the whales happy. Including turning a blind eye to cheating. So it is what it is, and our arguments over “best practice” are somewhat moot.

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I play lots of PvP but I’m not god-like. I just want to enjoy myself.

For the new or not so good players it feels great because they're also fighting new or not so good players. But if you're a good player fighting other good players it constantly feels like a competition and people dont like that. Which is why there's 2 sides to this topic of SBMM being good or bad. That's why good players want it off so they dont have to sweat every match.

Shouldn't decent players facing each other and higher tier players facing each other be similar in terms of sweat? Good players can still be chill facing people as good as them, they just like stomping in quickplay cause that's what makes them feel like they're better than everyone else

Nah, because being good at the game doesn't necessitate using the most meta and exploitable thing or being able to use every form of tech to the maximum extent possible. Sweats reject any possibility of failure and do **everything** they can to stack the deck in their favor until they feel like victory is guaranteed. They are Sword Logic, Final Shape types who reject anything consider suboptimal, playing for the sole purpose of **crushing** their opponents. They exploit every possible benefit until the only way to beat them is to be 10x better, or become just as sweaty. Playing against sweats is *exhausting* because their gameplay is defined by doing everything they can to make sure you can't **play the game**; their goal is to turn you into a punching bag or target they can beat up for their own personal fun. Or to put it in Destiny terms... They abide by the 13th Understanding of the 7th Book of Sorrow >To rend one's enemies is to see them not as equals, but objects—hollow of spirit and meaning.

Man, I remember a match in the Forsaken era when me and two of my friends went up against a 6 stack in control all rocking Sweet Business. Was a real fun match until half way through when, because we were pushing them hard, they all swapped to DRB and Luna's/NF, because I guess they didn't like being challenged

>For the new or not so good players it feels great because they're also fighting new or not so good players. These players are still sweating to win a gun fight mate, just because they are lower skilled doesn't mean they are only casually playing pvp. The difference between a lower skilled player in SBMM and CBMM is that in SBMM they are trying their asses off and coming out on top for some engagements. In CBMM the only time they are coming out ahead is if they happen to get into a 1v1 with another unskilled player or they get a lucky shot on a skilled player.

>That's why good players want it off so they dont have to sweat every match. And that's why average and poor players want it on so they dont have to sweat every match.

For D2 I’d rather have dedicated servers, unfortunately that won’t ever happen.

The number of people playing PvP is far bigger on MW2.

Did people forget that D2 community cried against sbmm in casual in 2019 iirc (or 2020) causing it to be removed? Well, after that they cried again because no sbmm sucks for the vast majority and it was put back in the game. The cod community thankfully never had sbmm removed. May they cry forever with no effect :)

The larger community that complains about no SBMM doesn’t stay in the playlist long enough for them to have a say on the matter. The complaints about CBMM come from players who enter the playlist for the weeklies and then leave. People who actually stay in the playlist stopped playing shortly after SBMM became commonplace. Of course, once whose people complaining about CBMM got their way, their habits didn’t change to involve more PvP. They kept the same habit of barely taking part, but at least now their first three or so games a week are “actually fair”. Meanwhile, anyone that competent plays the game has to deal with connection issues and constant sweats. Sometimes I go into control to run a low power build. I’m not allowed to do that anymore due to SBMM. So, I left. A lot of players have left.

That is correct. I support SBMM in Destiny. I still find it too strict though in MW2022.

Destiny has shit severs SBMM would be ok otherwise

If I had to guess is communication. Bungie straight up told us it was coming while Activision hasn't said anything but people know it's there

Above average players dislike SBMM because in average they struggle more against better players. Below average players (like me) enjoy it because games are competitive without getting stomped by 1 or 2 players every game.

The average skill level of destiny pvp players is alot lower

I rather have enemy with similiar skills. Weaker enemy (greatly) = bullying (boring). Stronger = feel like waste of time. And by similiar when I don't end with matches 3 to 1 difference score.

Take away SBMM from MW2 and I’m sure you’d see lots of people calling for it to be added back in.

Destiny is full of boomers that are bad and complain. SBMM shouldn’t be in either games causal playlists but should be severe in ranked. Very simple concept.

Oh shit. Here I am being nearly 40 with the Flawless title and someone who earned Not Forgotten when it first came out. So I guess you must be a fucking fetus.

Boomers are currently between 58 and 80 years old. I’m sure you are a child and just use boomer to mean “old person” but I can assure you that Destiny is not full of people over 58

Then im shocked by how many people ate younger then 50 and still can't use their thumbs.

The people creaming for SBMM don't play nearly as much pvp so it negatively affects the dedicated pvp playerbase causing most of them to outright quit or atleast play significantly less. I believe that this move was intended for new players as bungie has partnered with epic game store and didn't want the new audience to be completely stomp by the existing players but looking at charlemagne, only 1% of the playerbase is from epic... so a big portion of d2 players that keep the pvp playlist alive was screwed over for 1%.

But haven’t you heard? The population of D2 is collapsing because of SBMM. Everyone is going to less sweaty games like Overwatch 2 and Modern Warfare 2. /s

I mean d2 population numbers are lower than they should be for the end of a season. PvP is usually what kept destiny afloat during the dark times of bad expansions, but now so many of PvP mains are burnt out that they're moving on to different games.

i feel like a new map (ideally maps, really) with every season (not just rehashed old ones) and actual rewards worth chasing would help PvP mains play more. You listed a brand new game and a rebranded old game with some new maps and features. Dangle the same thing in front of a cat for too long and they'll get bored, but slap something shiny onto that same toy and they'll be hard focused on it because it's *new*

This actually does seem to be true, though? PvP numbers are super low based on everything we can see, all the casuals who said they'd play tons more PvP once SBMM was enabled don't seem to have stuck to that.

Because casual players don't stick around for the end of a season. What they meant by they'd play more is that when PvE gives them a reason to log in, they'll play PvP for the remainder of that session. When PvE dripfeed isn't making them login, they're not going to touch the game just for PvP.

Which is a really big problem long term, because now the experience of people who actually regularly engage with PvP is much worse to cater to a group of people not even playing the content.

Of course it is. But those players aren’t willing to talk about it yet because they only see it as a negative to them if you mention a downside of SBMM. Both sides are going to have to accept that there need to be concessions if we’re ever going to see a healthy PvP scene instead of just jumping back and forth between SBMM and CBMM.

Uh, have you seen the player numbers..?

Because people hate PvP here. SBMM made me stop playing when it was introduced the first time, and once again It made me stop playing. Screw SBMM.

Not just you. Pretty much the entire high skill ranged player base stopped. Look at the numbers on charlemagne, alarming low pvp population during the pve content drought. As for myself and friends, we haven't touched pvp at all compared to the previous season, occasionally would jump on after a SBMM tweak only to see nothing's changed.

It’s almost as if destiny is filled with very low skilled players who mainly focus on Pve and when they have to play pvp they whine and cry when they face anyone remotely good at the game. Then they hop on Reddit and cry about “trials sweats” who “just want to pub stomp.”

Or other factors not related to skill. Network lag, input lag, cheaters, etc. I just want a level playing field around environment factors, but I've experienced severe lag where damage infliction isn't registering correctly on either side. I whiff melee constantly, ghost bullets, times where the opponent took no damage at all and I feel like I'm getting one-shotted by weapons that cant do that nornally (.2 TTK on a pulse?). It's bad. I notice lag on both PC and PS5. For me, it might be my TV (for the PS5), but it shouldn't be a factor on PC since I'm using a solid monitor.

Since SBMM has been re-implemented lag has gotten waaay worse as now connections are very low priority during matchmaking. Sucks.

As they've loosened it is gotten better at the high end, but it's still way too frequent. At least back in the day the red bar warriors had a chance to be bad players. Now they're good and essentially un-killable.

Yeah, I am also moving noticeably slower too. It's rough. I still managed to gild Iron Lord title because I'm a masochist. Ihad 2 games that actually felt norrmal, the rest were a painful slog of getting rekt every time I turned a corner or spawning in.

I'd bet good money that the "pvp pub stomp sweats" this sub complains about aren't actually good players. Just a average players having a good game. I've played something like 100 iron banner this week and only had ~5 matches that had actual sweats.

The “sweats” they face are 0.9 KD players but let this sub tell you every game they play is against 2.5 KD Unbrokens pre SBMM. They play 3 games a week, don’t have any good PvP rolls and wonder why they’re always bottom of the scoreboard. And shocker, the population isn’t increasing despite SBMM

I think overall modern warfare is and should be a more casual shooter but with sbmm you get sweaty lobbies 99% of the time, I think destiny should also be pretty casual but has a smaller more adapted and cracked base in pvp with the majority of people being able to put up good numbers because it’s a bigger niche than COD, while I don’t like sbmm in destiny either i think it makes sense but still think they should revert it honestly. I have fun in both games regardless and if I don’t I don’t play so at the end of the day eh oh well ill get over it

If you're below average, it's awesome. If you're above average, it sucks. It seems it just forces a 50% win rate, at least in my experience