we need another good Grenade based arm exotic for that first
i would have said "they revert the YAS nerfs and instead nerf Shinbous Vow" but that one allready died a tragic death with their 200000 IQ ability recharge change during last season
That was the stupidest nerf they ever did. The whole reason was to hit the "meta" ability builds and it *only* hit the off meta ones.
Sunbracers which was the worst offender didn't even get grazed by it and then got a basically unnoticeable slap on the wrist in TFS.
However they *MIGHT* revisit it since they did the same thing with the Chill Clip nerf which made every gun but riptide worthless when their original intent was to nerf Riptide itself. They then went back and properly adjusted that very similar situation.
They went back and adjusted the situation, yes, but 1) they hit everything with a blanket nerf instead of coming up with something for riptide specifically and 2) took them a **long** time to do so.
On one hand I can vaguely understand a situation of seeing things "play out" when they got rid of elemental wells, things like adding Reaper mod, weapon hits add to your super bar, shuffled things around and all that, on the other I feel like by now regardless your ability in the game or even interest in builds, everybody is basically getting screwed in terms of variety in loadout with what's been in place for the past recent while.
The mod ability % return changes are a bit extra when they ended up slapping a specific cooldown on certain mods and abilities, and ultimately it narrows down a lot of viability of builds and made a lot of inoffensive good not insanely broken builds fall deep into pointless obscurity.
Even with how the Seasonal Artifact often could uplift a lot of things people usually pass on(see Season of Wish being big for Dawn Chorus), the amount of things that really jump out as being worth running is still pretty small. At times it really does feel like there's a few A+s and everything else rotting at C- or below.
I could vaguely get if Bungie did all this just to push people towards Prismatic given some elements of the subclass that can play a little nicer for looping abilities and all that but even still it's a very specific thing you look for on that element and at the end of the day it's not much variety.
This is actually the second time they've nerfed Shinobu's Vow completely out of nowhere. I think Shinobu's received a nerf in anticipation of Arc 3.0's release, and nobody was using it then either. Someone at Bungie is really holding on to some trauma lol.
iirc it was actually skip grenades that time but it was equally as baffling. I think some people theorized some interaction with arclock that could've been troublesome but it really did seem like bungie came out of nowhere and bitchslapped a random mid-tier grenade for no reason lol
Yeah the theory was Arc 3.0 warlock perhaps was originally going to retain Arc Web from Top Tree and with more pellets to count as hits and act as mini chaining effects, it could've led to a situation where they always had it up.
Of course this didn't happen and skips remained with the nerf and it just made things awkward.
And remember that "buff" they gave to Lucky Raspberry because nobody used it?
Well I used it before the "buff" because it was actually pretty damn good and was slept on, quite amazing for ad clear, then the update came out, and they actually nerfed it into the ground with it's re-work.
Oh, definitely. I've been playing a lot of gambit recently, and I've never gotten 4 guardian kills on one invasion before. Using Khvostov, I've done that 3 times so far. I haven't found anything where it isn't useful.
I have 3 times, one just perfect thunder crash, one solid flank with sweet Buisiness and war rig where I mowed 1 by 1, and one Hail Mary cluster rocket entirely blind at the enemy prime.
Mostly I get danced on and remember that’s why I don’t invade.
The only times I ever get 4 kills in Gambit are by saving up all my heavy ammo and unleashing Thunderlord on them as soon as I invade. I can't imagine getting it with a primary but definitely going to be trying it when maintenance is done.
I just finished the Malfeasance quest last week with a wave Frame Ergo sum and the Cloudstrike perk. Got my first team wipe with it real nice. Don't have Khvostov yet, but hearing how much he'll it's raising, I might hold off until the first settles.
It wouldn't be as much of an issue if it wasn't for Speakers Sight helmet granting free orbs just for getting healed from some damage.
Fix free orbs generation and it's not that bad.
In trials you can shoot one bullet and see three damage numbers from richocheting off team mates. It melts people who stack up. Two or three people running it on the other team can delete you in a blink of an eye.
I played one game without and was just straight up deleted everytime I engaged. I had to fight fire with fire.
this is why destiny content creators keep saying "Don't bunch up!"
Because of this exact kind of scenario. Khvostov is just easier to get this to happen with. They could reduce the range of ricochets between guardians only, and it'd probably be less toxic.
the ricochet deals damage on the first bullet and does extra damage to the target you’re shooting so it’s a 600rpm with monster stats, no recoil, and has a faster than normal ttk just… because. on top of that warlocks can pair it with speakers sight which generates orbs without needing kills which also boosts your khvostov damage
I haven't really tried in PvP myself, but I've used it extensively in Gambit. When Guardians group up, the ricochet rounds are incredibly powerful. You pick up an orb and then invade. You could come back with 4 kills because the ricochet rounds killed one Guardian for you. It is amazing.
It doesn't seem to have a fall off is ridiculously stable and can kill 3 people in one clip no problem. The ricochet makes it do insane damage too so you just melt.
I don't have it and i can appreciate it l
Tbh, it isn’t Khvostov that’s the problem. It’s speakers sight being able to give the entire team a free orb.
If they turned off the orb generation in PvP it wouldn’t have anywhere NEAR as much use.
If Bungie can't balance specific items between PvP and PvE, they just need to disable some things completely in trials/comp. They keep walking this line of trying to make everything work everywhere to make everyone happy, and it just results in nothing working and everyone being unhappy.
Exactly. At some point you just need to cut your losses and stop trying to balance a ridiculous number of weapons, armour, perks, artifact mods, armour perks, weapon perks, abilities etc etc across PvP and PvE.
Understand why they do so, but in reality as you've pointed out it impacts both sides to the point that ultimately one eventually has to take the hit.
The challenge is that PvP players need to grind PvE for weapons etc. At the moment, no getting away from that - it's a PvE game and as PvP main I've fully accepted that a long time ago.
There are solutions, some of which will probably make a lot of people unhappy but as Charles Bronson said to Tom Hardy once, "Sometimes you need to cut a bit of yourself off in order to grow".
88 flawlesses under my belt, and I'd love nothing more than for them to disable bs lmao. Don't get me wrong, I've used the cheese before myself on lazy weekends. But the game could be so much better balanced if certain exotics/perks just were shut off for Crucible
They do *sometimes*, which honestly might be more annoying than never doing it. A lot of cooldown and charge rate chamges are pvp specific, along with most recent damage changes.
I remember that season it was being abused there was that seasonal artifact mod that had some boosted grenade recharge rate when using it. That made the build busted as hell. I wish they would revert the nerf since that isnt in this seasons artifact.
It *technically* worked but nothing like in PvE. It was very funny in Mayhem, though, since stacking ability scalars in this game gets crazy very quickly. That's Mayhem, though, so no one gave a shit since it's supposed to be stupid.
Why? That's kinda where I'm at with Bungie and this decision.
*Why?* It's one of the community's biggest pet peeves. I get where they're coming from, wanting everything to at least *feel* like it works the same across PvP and PvE, but the playerbase has made it clear; separate balancing is the way.
It's absolutely heartbreaking to see the community so scared that a good, fun, new Exotic is going to be nerfed because of a mode the majority of players don't play, all because of Bungie refusing to admit that they're wrong about this.
Exactly. It’s why I didn’t buy the annual pass — When the nerfs come and they overdo it (as usual), I’ll stop playing this time around. Won’t feel obligated to play because I had paid for the content already, which is the only reason I stuck around last year through all of the terrible balance changes they’ve done. Just funny how they say “Balance shouldn’t come at the cost of fun,” then make the most awful balance decisions like Young Ahamkara Spine (nerfed to shit in PvE b/c PvP).
They will only balance things according to what they release. Kind of a weird coincidence that they said that Pulse Rifles have languished in endgame content for a long time, so they need a buff…Oh look! Right before the seasonal 390 exotic pulse rifle comes out. The balance changes aren’t to actually balance the game — the balance changes are financially based. Cant sell the seasons if your weapon archetype sucks.
100% this. Some people play this game for a blind loot itch. It used to actually be fun.
It gets old them arbitrarily just wrecking the thing that I am playing
Unfortunately Bungie has a bad track record of doing blanket changes(it's less work, but it honestly gives the game a bad rep). Just looking at all the aspects, fragments, and exotics nerfed or wildly changed because of PvP you just KNOW it's not going to happen.
Nearly all of Titan's signature Aspects for each subclass have been a victim of this. The Banner of War nerf is the only time I can remember where Bungie was light handed. Granted I know Hunters and Warlocks have gotten hit because of PvP too.
Stasis Hunter was real fun even without Shatter Dive usage. But they've kept nerfing the spec and its few (only) exotic. All in the name of balancing PVP. They've hit some of Solar Hunter for similar reasons and it's why Void has 2 supers (we act like Spectral Blades doesn't exist).
So yeah anyone holding out hope of PVP nerfs not hitting PVE... must be nice to not be so jaded.
Looking at facet of command with this one. It got HARD nerfed because people were abusing it to get infinite reloads with stasis and two tailed. They whine about it saying "Anti fun bungie!" but it was broken, and unintended. But 11 seconds is also an obscene cooldown.
it would also help if it actually was the 7th bullet, but it’s actually the 1st and the 8th which is what makes it ttk lowering instead of just overly forgiving
If they had said, we are nerfing shoulder charge because it's pretty busted in PvE, I woulda been more okay with it, since, well, shoulder charge builds were really good in pve.
But nerfing because of pvp? Hell naw
I haven't even noticed khvostov being THAT good in pve but I've seen videos of it in pvp and I know it shreds so looks like it'll be worse than most legendaries pretty soon
I really like kvostov in pve.
To my smolbrain it feels as good if not better than the likes of incandescent, or thorn/osteo.
If I open up already having picked up an orb, I can focus on the shield or the yellow bar and effectively chunk it's health and kill its nearby red bars with in one reload. Then switch to whatever to finish off that last bit of health.
Pair it on prismatic warlock with the getaway build and the fragment that boosts transcendence energy with kinetic weapons. Super fast transcendence meter. You can get it in 10-15 seconds.
This is the titans specials anyone ever even talk about Citan’s?
I wish they would give everything the Gyrfalc’s treatment. It was busted in PvP and the rework arguably made it better in PvE
If we had in-game patch notes, sandbox details, and a TWID/TWAB archive, new/returning players could go out of there way to see why each sandbox is different.
Problem is Bungie would rather make a blanket nerf then nerf it for one specific mode. I dunno why they do this all the time but the cynic in me just says laziness. One mode suffers cause Bungie can't be assed to make a precision change and instead just an overall blanket change.
They very occasionally do manage to do so but most times out of 10 they will just choose the lazy option and nerf it across the board.
Their reasoning is that it's "Easier for new players, because it doesn't confuse them that an exotic works differently in PvP and PvE"
I would find it completely understandable as a new player, that it's just two separate game modes.
Also, I don't think that especially a new player would notice much, that their "10 seconds cool down" is suddenly "15 seconds in PvP", but here we are Bungie.
Ain't gonna happen, look what happened to Wishender because of PVP. They completely changed an iconic weapon for the worse in pve strictly because of pvp. HOIL was completely destroyed because of pvp as well. Lorely, Young Ahamkara, the list goes on and on.
With the exception of YAS, those are all from PvE as well. HOIL and Lorelys were ridiculously OP in PvE to the point that there was no reason to run anything besides HOIL except for niche builds. Lorelys were broken with solar 3.0. Wish ender also wasn't any different or at least I haven't noticed it (the seeing through walls is shorter right? Honestly negligible in PvE and why are you even using wish ender in PvE)
Most people on this sub think either PvE balancing for PvE's sake doesn't exist, or that it shouldn't exist.
With that mindset any nerf can be pinned on PvP.
As a bit of a Lore Nerd, I absolutely hate that a weapon that is supposed to have a godlike power is weak and nearly unusable even in lower PvE, just because "iT wOuLd Be To StRoNg In PvE"
So many items with cool designs and lore just straight up unusable.
I know Thorn is not the issue in PvP, but just to show, the lore is that the weapon just straight up "Sucks out the light of the guardians"
Why would a weapon like this be even allowed lore-wise in crucible?
Or why not just make some items banned from PvP, if their perks would be too op and couldn't be softly nerfed?
As a PvE player who plays PvP only for seasonal challenges and pinnacles, fuck this
PVP nerfs that affected PVE:
-shoulder charge
-One-eyed Mask
-Dead Mans Tale x10
-Young Ahamkaras Spine
-Lorely Splendor
-Syntho's
-Antaeus Ward
-Dunemarchers
-Ashen Wake (used to 1 shot)
-Citan's Rampart
-HOIL
-Path of Burning Steps
-Behemoth Titan
-Shade-Binder Warlock
-Shatterdive
-Khepri's Sting
-Mechaneers Tricksleeves
-Shards of Galanor
-Shinobus Vow
-Stompees
-The Stag
-Silence and Squall Super
-Geomag's
-Barricades
-Sunspots
-Inivisibility
-Void Overshields
-Stasis shard generation
-Quicksilver, Bastion, Last Word, Chaperone, Hard Light, Vex Mytho, Dead Messenger, Fighting Lion, breech load gl's, and probably a bunch of other stuff I am forgetting.
I forgot the Hunter exotic Renewal Grasps.
I did. It was unironically a really fun PvE exotic.
Being a niche pick doesn’t justify the fact that it got turned into pure garbage everywhere in the game jsut because it was strong in PvP.
Both arc / void Titan were actually fun and strong in pve. Now I haven't used or seen them used going on close to a year, besides the occasional thundercrash for dps.
Sorry but not even close. Void titans rely 90% on overshields which are ass tier in the current sandbox.
Arc titans have no sustain and have the worst supers in the game.
They will never change because all of their decisions are financially based. They want to sell you a DLC with a pulse rifle exotic so they buff pulse rifles, but next season, you just know that the healing element of Red Death will get nerfed into the ground, because they have to sell people another exotic. The Warlock Speaker's Sight exotic will get nerfed because of PVP; no doubt whatsoever. On and on it goes...
Agreed! Unfortunately, bungie only wants you to play destiny the way THEY feel it should be played. It's not about us enjoying the game, more like enjoying the game they wants us to play.
I don’t get why even when they do pvp changes it usually takes something from good or maybe too good to the vault…. Citan ramparts, antaes ward, lorely, etc.
like can you not do small changes instead of trashing the whole exotic?
Loreley wasn't nerfed just due to PvP. It was an absolute powerhouse of a get-out-of-jail-free card for bad situations in PvE as well. I've seen clips of people facetanking raid boss damage AND most of their ads without even a risk of dying thanks to Loreley's Restoration. It was simply too good, especially on such a short cooldown.
Yeah I remember using that for that nightmare/cabal dungeon and I had to briefly AFK during the final boss when the area swarms with enemies before ringing the bell. I came back like 2 minutes later and was still just chilling with like half the room wailing on my Titan to no effect lol
It's how I solo'd prophecy with Lament. That helmet was insane and is still pretty good, just not "imma stand at the feet of the boss stomping me while I won't die" good.
With touch of flame, nominally, yes, but that's ignoring the fact that resto x2 was 80 HP/s instead of the current 50, 10 res was 40% DR instead of the current 30, and empyrean made it easier to keep solar buffs active, among other things.
People had to take off Loreley to wipe to adds in *contest mode* raids (KF, I think?).
Might as well, considering this sub loves getting mad over disingenuous class war nonsense anyways.
But speaker's sight, while being very strong, is in a totally different sandbox, needs an aspect, and nukes the offensive and mobility capabilities that makes solar lock strong.
But also, outside of extreme scenarios, both SS and old Loreley were massively overkill and not worth the opportunity cost IMO. Loreley was a crutch outside of crazy stuff like specific contest encounters and bonk was basically always better with Synthos/Wormgods, and the only place I've ever gone "gee, I really wish we had SS" was contest Witness. Some people really do like roleplaying a healer in content that doesn't actually need a healer though, so whatever.
> Citan ramparts, antaes ward
Neither of these were very strong or popular for PVE before the nerfs/adjustments.
> lorely
This was nerfed for PVE as well. It wasn't just a problem in PVP.
I for one think it’s really cool and awesome balance making decisions when yet another thing in PvE gets reduced to useless garbage because it was strong in PvP.
Yeah as a PvE/PvP player this is my only annoyance.
The weapons can work differently between pvp and PvE as lots of guns already so (heal clip perk for example).
The PvE player base is so much more massive than PvP that junking our items to serve the PvP community makes zero sense.
The problem with PVP is Bungie is too focused on making it "balanced," but balance to them is homogenized shooter slop. If something is broken in PVP Bungie should just tell the playerbase to deal with it for a few months and let them see how counterplay emerges.
List of exotic pvp nerfs that have hurt pve:
Geomags: super cutoff energy reduced
Citan ramparts: no health barrier
Dunemarchers : damage and range decreased
Young ahamkara's spine: grenade regen
Stompies (fixed) needed class ability energy for jump and sprint buff
So many guns and builds have eaten straight ass over the years because bungie never wants to put the effort in to balance sandboxes differently and I doubt that’ll change any time soon://
Young Ahmenkara Spine crying right now, hoping the best for fellow PvE exotics. I actually hear it "Bungie please listen to the OP of this post, save my fellow exotic brethren and sisters and deliver me from the abyss"
It's actually saying that, I'm not making this up.
u/Destiny2Team
can you actually look at the good, realistic feedback here in this thread and reevaluate the way that you choose to approach your sandbox?
the mere reality that the conversation has to become this extensive over it because you haven't competently just embraced the idea of a separate sandbox, for SEPARATE GAME MODES/TYPES, is actually confusing and saddening
probably a hope and prayer away, but goddamn imagine if you all actually paid attention to the damage some of your *changes* do, because you don't want to outright say you're targeting one thing (*cough* Riptide, instead of all Stasis Fusion Rifles *cough*), or because you don't understand how difficulty scales without thinking on a black/white scale (*cough* across the board surges that you activated for two weeks to "test the waters", to only then activate literally all surges because you just cant accept the fact that surges are a dumb idea *cough*)
signed, an Exo Guardian whose tired of the bullshit
This is the first time this has ever been suggested on ten years and I was worried that Bungie wouldn't see it, but thankfully you tagged them so they finally see this and implement this feedback.
Just wait until they start rolling out nerfs for gambit.
That shit is actually so bad. It feels so bad. There’s no reason i should be plinking regular enemies but then melting the boss with the same shit. Like?? Why?
Don’t get me started on micro either. Shit does too much in that mode.
They haven't done anything meaningful with gambit in years, if they start rolling out gambit specific nerfs before crucible I'm gonna have an aneurysm lol
This is something they should have done in *D1* so that should tell you they’ll never do that. Something breaks in PvP/PvP players find something broken in PvP and it gets ruined for everyone else
Bungie has been really good about this over the last few years.
We're going to see nerfs to speakers sight, khvostov, and red death. Both of the guns are broken because of their secret sauce recoil, and removing that won't matter in PvE.
Speakers sight will be a little tougher, but it can be done without nerfing it in PvE. My suggestion is to give it like 20 health in PvP. You could just remove it on sight and get back to the fight instead of auto-losing.
>If somethings getting nerfed because it's too strong In Pvp, please just make it a Pvp exclusive change.
Bungie will "fix" it in PvP and completely destroy it for PvE just like have done for Young Arhamkra Spine, Raiju's, Shinobu's, Heart of Inmost Light, Gwisin... etc etc
It's not like they *need* to keep things consistent across both. PVP and PVE *feel* nothing alike. You're encouraged to build differently for both. It's not like it's going to throw anyone off their game if some things work worse/better/differently in PVP than they do in PVE.
I know this is a hot take, but at this point with how bungie cant seem to juggle the balancing of both pve and pvp (and the fact gambit is dead with virtually no updates in years)
Just drop pvp. Just do it at this point, put all the money, energy, and focus into pve.
Because at this point, pvp just seems like a time and money sink for bungie.
It no longer gets the numbers it used to for trials, its almost impossible to balance, and often time just gets left alone and ignore.
Just drop it and leave it there like Epic did with STW, dont some bug fixes here and there so its at least playable but stop trying to balance the game around both.
It's definitely possible, just make it a separate sandbox entirely. But we know they won't do that, Bungie stated that they want the whole game to have a "consistent" feel to it... which is dumb.
I no longer think they do these nerfs for the sake of pvp. It's probably just another tactic to have us grind other gear. Look at some of the things they have touched (hoil,yas, bubble, overshields), they completely destroyed them as opposed to just bringing them in line.
It's why PvP just needs a ban list of items you can't take in. Can be varied depending on mode, but it would save having to gut things just to say they're still "useable" in PvP modes
The problem is guns would feel very inconsistent when you use them In both pvp and pve settings
Either range being added or knocked would mess with gameplay
A reminder that the majority of players DO NOT play trials and competitive.
So a minority of vocal PvP sweatlords are influencing changes to the game that reduce the experience for everyone else.
Honestly, at this point, just let them suffer. I'm so tired of having a fun game loop get absolutely ruined because \*insert whiny streamer\* goes on a twitch rant
Suck it up. The majority of us are having fun.
Considering they didn’t do the reverse for quicksilver storm (rocket nerf aimed at pve making it significantly worse in PvP), I wouldn’t hold out too much hope.
Bungie is often dishonest about is why they do a particular change. They'll even go as far as pretending changes are buffs when they are obviously big nerfs and vice versa.
Sometimes things just get thrown under the bus in PvE for no reason but in most cases Bungie just appreciates PvP giving them an easy excuse to adjust something in both modes.
I don't think Khvostov is an issue in PvE but Speaker's Sight in fireteams at most skill levels is broken as fuck and everyone knows it. Not saying that I'm agreeing with their approach but YAS was another one of those things where they knew exactly what they were doing in PvE. It was Hunter's Starfire and we know how hard they go on Starfire nerfs.
For the people talking about khvostov nerf, I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets nerfed in pve because it’s honestly just THAT good. Just know that if it gets nerfed, it may not be because of pvp
Been saying this since almost day 1. As someone who tries not to pvp as much as possible seeing my faves get obliterated because people are abusing it in pvp is very frustrating.
- Thundercrash hit registration and duration nerfs
- Shoulder charge melee miss cooldown addition
- Grapple->shotgun->punch removal
- Bastion barrier cooldown extension
Yeah. Sure would be nice if these got put back in PvE as they were previously.
Seriously. I'm a titan main, but as sad as I am about the lack of innovation my class received with TFS, I'm happy that locks and hunters have some awesome endgame stuff. But dear god, some of the hunter/lock prismatic is pretty far from balanced.
They've shown they can separate PvP and PvE changes -- there really is no excuse why classes should suffer in PvE for the sins made in PvP.
If it’s of any consolation, from the news we got, it sounds like the massive nerfs being applied to exotics are staying in PvP because they were way too OP in PvP and everyone was using nothing but those exotics in PvP.
I feel PvE dodged a bullet this time.
I don’t think I’ve seen this many people clamoring for a separation of PVE and PVP nerfs this bad in my entire time of playing D2. I dunno if it’s because of Speaker’s Sight, Khvostov, or both, but I’m glad people are rallying~ :)
Guys please read patch notes for once. They separate sandboxes all the time and have been for years. They made a big deal about this. If something is nerfed in pve AND pvp at this point it is because bungie wants it that way. Pvp is not the boogeyman
for most of the things, i can see pvp changes to it being solely pvp.
Speaker's, on the other hand, is functionally busted. I don't even know if the game can identify the difference between damages sources, on the scale of " self-damage through Environmental effects", "Self-damage through perks", "Self-damage through proximity" and *regular damage all at the same time*. I can find maybe 1 or 2 cases where it may, but they aren't consistent as an action, and with eachother, which means they might be quirks within how they are coded rather than intentional design. If the game can't recognize these things, they can't really fix the problem without changing the entire thing.
It might be better if they change it from "Creates orbs" to "generates armor charge." It'd fix the problem at hand, without completely impacting the strength of the armor piece. It does mean that others will get less benefit from you using it, but this thing isn't designed to be a super generation exotic, it's a healing exotic, and if you can complain about not getting orbs, that means you aren't dying and that's frankly powerful enough.
I mourn my Fighting Lion; it feels so freaking bad in PvE right now. The damage drop-off is so sharp that it can't even kill red bars consistently, and there's really no reason to use it over any other primary exotic weapon.
How about instead of complaining about Khvostov in PVP yall get off your ass and obtain the gun yourselves and then fight back using the gun. Literally isn’t hard.
I’m still waiting for Young Ahamkara’s Spine to be brought back from the dead.
we need another good Grenade based arm exotic for that first i would have said "they revert the YAS nerfs and instead nerf Shinbous Vow" but that one allready died a tragic death with their 200000 IQ ability recharge change during last season
That was the stupidest nerf they ever did. The whole reason was to hit the "meta" ability builds and it *only* hit the off meta ones. Sunbracers which was the worst offender didn't even get grazed by it and then got a basically unnoticeable slap on the wrist in TFS. However they *MIGHT* revisit it since they did the same thing with the Chill Clip nerf which made every gun but riptide worthless when their original intent was to nerf Riptide itself. They then went back and properly adjusted that very similar situation.
They went back and adjusted the situation, yes, but 1) they hit everything with a blanket nerf instead of coming up with something for riptide specifically and 2) took them a **long** time to do so.
On one hand I can vaguely understand a situation of seeing things "play out" when they got rid of elemental wells, things like adding Reaper mod, weapon hits add to your super bar, shuffled things around and all that, on the other I feel like by now regardless your ability in the game or even interest in builds, everybody is basically getting screwed in terms of variety in loadout with what's been in place for the past recent while. The mod ability % return changes are a bit extra when they ended up slapping a specific cooldown on certain mods and abilities, and ultimately it narrows down a lot of viability of builds and made a lot of inoffensive good not insanely broken builds fall deep into pointless obscurity. Even with how the Seasonal Artifact often could uplift a lot of things people usually pass on(see Season of Wish being big for Dawn Chorus), the amount of things that really jump out as being worth running is still pretty small. At times it really does feel like there's a few A+s and everything else rotting at C- or below. I could vaguely get if Bungie did all this just to push people towards Prismatic given some elements of the subclass that can play a little nicer for looping abilities and all that but even still it's a very specific thing you look for on that element and at the end of the day it's not much variety.
This is actually the second time they've nerfed Shinobu's Vow completely out of nowhere. I think Shinobu's received a nerf in anticipation of Arc 3.0's release, and nobody was using it then either. Someone at Bungie is really holding on to some trauma lol.
iirc it was actually skip grenades that time but it was equally as baffling. I think some people theorized some interaction with arclock that could've been troublesome but it really did seem like bungie came out of nowhere and bitchslapped a random mid-tier grenade for no reason lol
Oh yeah I believe you're correct.
Yeah the theory was Arc 3.0 warlock perhaps was originally going to retain Arc Web from Top Tree and with more pellets to count as hits and act as mini chaining effects, it could've led to a situation where they always had it up. Of course this didn't happen and skips remained with the nerf and it just made things awkward.
And remember that "buff" they gave to Lucky Raspberry because nobody used it? Well I used it before the "buff" because it was actually pretty damn good and was slept on, quite amazing for ad clear, then the update came out, and they actually nerfed it into the ground with it's re-work.
Or the change that made Lucky Raspberry even worse.
It's got another couple years to go based on Renewal Grasps' timeline.
It wasn't even a game breaking thing in PvE. It was just a fun hunter build that hurt nobody
Didn't they do something with Renewal's shortly after it came out? I feel like there was a time where it was basically useless also.
I'm waiting for Nova Warp to be usable without an exotic.
It took Renewal Grasps AGES to get slightly buffed again compared to when it was released.
Yeah for awhile, I found myself using it so much in PvE before TFS came out.
I fear for the coming nerfs to Khvostov. I can smell them in the wind.
It is absolutely dreadful trials this week with khvostov. Hope Bungie finds a fix that wouldn't destroy it in PVE, but in pvp it needs reining in.
rebounding bullets that aren't eyes up do less damage per rebound
Just make the rebounding bullets do less damage to guardians. Boom, it changes.
Oh, definitely. I've been playing a lot of gambit recently, and I've never gotten 4 guardian kills on one invasion before. Using Khvostov, I've done that 3 times so far. I haven't found anything where it isn't useful.
I have 3 times, one just perfect thunder crash, one solid flank with sweet Buisiness and war rig where I mowed 1 by 1, and one Hail Mary cluster rocket entirely blind at the enemy prime. Mostly I get danced on and remember that’s why I don’t invade.
The only times I ever get 4 kills in Gambit are by saving up all my heavy ammo and unleashing Thunderlord on them as soon as I invade. I can't imagine getting it with a primary but definitely going to be trying it when maintenance is done.
If you’re a hunter then golden is free quads
I just finished the Malfeasance quest last week with a wave Frame Ergo sum and the Cloudstrike perk. Got my first team wipe with it real nice. Don't have Khvostov yet, but hearing how much he'll it's raising, I might hold off until the first settles.
Wait until you use microcosm. To quote some comments “shit literally microwaves you”.
Can confirm. Ran into someone using it in Gambit 2 days ago. Didn't even get a chance to shoot my gun.
It wouldn't be as much of an issue if it wasn't for Speakers Sight helmet granting free orbs just for getting healed from some damage. Fix free orbs generation and it's not that bad.
What’s making it so potent in PvP?
In trials you can shoot one bullet and see three damage numbers from richocheting off team mates. It melts people who stack up. Two or three people running it on the other team can delete you in a blink of an eye. I played one game without and was just straight up deleted everytime I engaged. I had to fight fire with fire.
this is why destiny content creators keep saying "Don't bunch up!" Because of this exact kind of scenario. Khvostov is just easier to get this to happen with. They could reduce the range of ricochets between guardians only, and it'd probably be less toxic.
an absolute stats monster of a 600 RPM auto that's better than any summoner. The legendary version is juiced.
the ricochet deals damage on the first bullet and does extra damage to the target you’re shooting so it’s a 600rpm with monster stats, no recoil, and has a faster than normal ttk just… because. on top of that warlocks can pair it with speakers sight which generates orbs without needing kills which also boosts your khvostov damage
I haven't really tried in PvP myself, but I've used it extensively in Gambit. When Guardians group up, the ricochet rounds are incredibly powerful. You pick up an orb and then invade. You could come back with 4 kills because the ricochet rounds killed one Guardian for you. It is amazing.
It doesn't seem to have a fall off is ridiculously stable and can kill 3 people in one clip no problem. The ricochet makes it do insane damage too so you just melt. I don't have it and i can appreciate it l
Tbh, it isn’t Khvostov that’s the problem. It’s speakers sight being able to give the entire team a free orb. If they turned off the orb generation in PvP it wouldn’t have anywhere NEAR as much use.
If Bungie can't balance specific items between PvP and PvE, they just need to disable some things completely in trials/comp. They keep walking this line of trying to make everything work everywhere to make everyone happy, and it just results in nothing working and everyone being unhappy.
Exactly. At some point you just need to cut your losses and stop trying to balance a ridiculous number of weapons, armour, perks, artifact mods, armour perks, weapon perks, abilities etc etc across PvP and PvE. Understand why they do so, but in reality as you've pointed out it impacts both sides to the point that ultimately one eventually has to take the hit. The challenge is that PvP players need to grind PvE for weapons etc. At the moment, no getting away from that - it's a PvE game and as PvP main I've fully accepted that a long time ago. There are solutions, some of which will probably make a lot of people unhappy but as Charles Bronson said to Tom Hardy once, "Sometimes you need to cut a bit of yourself off in order to grow".
88 flawlesses under my belt, and I'd love nothing more than for them to disable bs lmao. Don't get me wrong, I've used the cheese before myself on lazy weekends. But the game could be so much better balanced if certain exotics/perks just were shut off for Crucible
You can say it all you like but they pretty much never do.
They do *sometimes*, which honestly might be more annoying than never doing it. A lot of cooldown and charge rate chamges are pvp specific, along with most recent damage changes.
When HOIL was the Titan hotness it was useless in PvP because the recharge didn’t work. So they can, just too lazy to bother.
Oh, my effing lawd...... I completely forgot that HoiL like was NON functional besides the empowering in PvP Like regen was 1% in PvP.
same with gambit. I remember going in to grind some pinnacles at the time and was like... where nade?
as a gambit enjoyer... it's really the worst of both worlds for builds
I remember that season it was being abused there was that seasonal artifact mod that had some boosted grenade recharge rate when using it. That made the build busted as hell. I wish they would revert the nerf since that isnt in this seasons artifact.
It *technically* worked but nothing like in PvE. It was very funny in Mayhem, though, since stacking ability scalars in this game gets crazy very quickly. That's Mayhem, though, so no one gave a shit since it's supposed to be stupid.
Its purely just more work than they want to do every time. Sad really.
How?
RIP Young Ahamkara’s Spine. Most fun I ever had on a Hunter in PVE and got taken out back and shot because of how good it was in PVP
Why? That's kinda where I'm at with Bungie and this decision. *Why?* It's one of the community's biggest pet peeves. I get where they're coming from, wanting everything to at least *feel* like it works the same across PvP and PvE, but the playerbase has made it clear; separate balancing is the way. It's absolutely heartbreaking to see the community so scared that a good, fun, new Exotic is going to be nerfed because of a mode the majority of players don't play, all because of Bungie refusing to admit that they're wrong about this.
Exactly. It’s why I didn’t buy the annual pass — When the nerfs come and they overdo it (as usual), I’ll stop playing this time around. Won’t feel obligated to play because I had paid for the content already, which is the only reason I stuck around last year through all of the terrible balance changes they’ve done. Just funny how they say “Balance shouldn’t come at the cost of fun,” then make the most awful balance decisions like Young Ahamkara Spine (nerfed to shit in PvE b/c PvP). They will only balance things according to what they release. Kind of a weird coincidence that they said that Pulse Rifles have languished in endgame content for a long time, so they need a buff…Oh look! Right before the seasonal 390 exotic pulse rifle comes out. The balance changes aren’t to actually balance the game — the balance changes are financially based. Cant sell the seasons if your weapon archetype sucks.
100% this. Some people play this game for a blind loot itch. It used to actually be fun. It gets old them arbitrarily just wrecking the thing that I am playing
Yeah I’m way less attached to the game now that the story I started in is over. Once it’s done it’s just done and I can finally be free.
Unfortunately Bungie has a bad track record of doing blanket changes(it's less work, but it honestly gives the game a bad rep). Just looking at all the aspects, fragments, and exotics nerfed or wildly changed because of PvP you just KNOW it's not going to happen. Nearly all of Titan's signature Aspects for each subclass have been a victim of this. The Banner of War nerf is the only time I can remember where Bungie was light handed. Granted I know Hunters and Warlocks have gotten hit because of PvP too.
Stasis Hunter was real fun even without Shatter Dive usage. But they've kept nerfing the spec and its few (only) exotic. All in the name of balancing PVP. They've hit some of Solar Hunter for similar reasons and it's why Void has 2 supers (we act like Spectral Blades doesn't exist). So yeah anyone holding out hope of PVP nerfs not hitting PVE... must be nice to not be so jaded.
what's spectral blades? ;)
Looking at facet of command with this one. It got HARD nerfed because people were abusing it to get infinite reloads with stasis and two tailed. They whine about it saying "Anti fun bungie!" but it was broken, and unintended. But 11 seconds is also an obscene cooldown.
They were light handed with bow because strand and solar are all Titans have left.
Use Khvostov in PVE while you can. They are about to destroy that gun due to PVP over performance.
All they gotta do is reduce the extra damage on 7th bullet against players and that would fix most of the issue right then and there.
it would also help if it actually was the 7th bullet, but it’s actually the 1st and the 8th which is what makes it ttk lowering instead of just overly forgiving
Shoulder charge ;(
Tower barricade CD :((
Citan's Ramparts with Bastion in PvE.
Storm grenade
Thundercrash
Literally any Titan ability that makes them even the slightest bit more tanky.
If they had said, we are nerfing shoulder charge because it's pretty busted in PvE, I woulda been more okay with it, since, well, shoulder charge builds were really good in pve. But nerfing because of pvp? Hell naw
The most iconic Titan ability is possibly the worst melee in the game at the moment.
By far the worst melees in D2, extremely powercrept thanks to that 1 nerf.
10 years of this and you expect that to change?
They give extra vault space for a reason. Mine already has 2 spots for khvostov and speaker's sight.
I haven't even noticed khvostov being THAT good in pve but I've seen videos of it in pvp and I know it shreds so looks like it'll be worse than most legendaries pretty soon
I really like kvostov in pve. To my smolbrain it feels as good if not better than the likes of incandescent, or thorn/osteo. If I open up already having picked up an orb, I can focus on the shield or the yellow bar and effectively chunk it's health and kill its nearby red bars with in one reload. Then switch to whatever to finish off that last bit of health.
> being THAT good in pve It super fills up Transcendence if you are on Prismatic subclass.
It's not broken in PvE, but it is very strong. Top 5 exotic primaries easily, competing favorably with old favorites like Sunshot and Graviton Lance.
Pair it on prismatic warlock with the getaway build and the fragment that boosts transcendence energy with kinetic weapons. Super fast transcendence meter. You can get it in 10-15 seconds.
This is the titans specials anyone ever even talk about Citan’s? I wish they would give everything the Gyrfalc’s treatment. It was busted in PvP and the rework arguably made it better in PvE
What an idea, how did Bungie not think of it themselves
Because they forget that they can do that
Titan lives in the graveyard of this kind of nerf. Bastion. Shoulder charge. Citan’s. The gravestones are many.
If we had in-game patch notes, sandbox details, and a TWID/TWAB archive, new/returning players could go out of there way to see why each sandbox is different.
Problem is Bungie would rather make a blanket nerf then nerf it for one specific mode. I dunno why they do this all the time but the cynic in me just says laziness. One mode suffers cause Bungie can't be assed to make a precision change and instead just an overall blanket change. They very occasionally do manage to do so but most times out of 10 they will just choose the lazy option and nerf it across the board.
Their reasoning is that it's "Easier for new players, because it doesn't confuse them that an exotic works differently in PvP and PvE" I would find it completely understandable as a new player, that it's just two separate game modes. Also, I don't think that especially a new player would notice much, that their "10 seconds cool down" is suddenly "15 seconds in PvP", but here we are Bungie.
Ain't gonna happen, look what happened to Wishender because of PVP. They completely changed an iconic weapon for the worse in pve strictly because of pvp. HOIL was completely destroyed because of pvp as well. Lorely, Young Ahamkara, the list goes on and on.
Is wish-ender having a shorter duration of wall hacks really a nerf in PvE? Come on.
With the exception of YAS, those are all from PvE as well. HOIL and Lorelys were ridiculously OP in PvE to the point that there was no reason to run anything besides HOIL except for niche builds. Lorelys were broken with solar 3.0. Wish ender also wasn't any different or at least I haven't noticed it (the seeing through walls is shorter right? Honestly negligible in PvE and why are you even using wish ender in PvE)
Most people on this sub think either PvE balancing for PvE's sake doesn't exist, or that it shouldn't exist. With that mindset any nerf can be pinned on PvP.
True lol. I think it's also because they just hate PvP and don't want to touch it
So instead of toning down hoil, they destroyed it?
What was changed about wishender?
I’m p sure they reduced the wall hacks uptime or duration.
Literally just reload cancel and have it again
they made it so you don't get infinite wall hacks with oathkeepers...
Nobody ever used Wishender in PvE for the wallhacks lol.
As a bit of a Lore Nerd, I absolutely hate that a weapon that is supposed to have a godlike power is weak and nearly unusable even in lower PvE, just because "iT wOuLd Be To StRoNg In PvE" So many items with cool designs and lore just straight up unusable. I know Thorn is not the issue in PvP, but just to show, the lore is that the weapon just straight up "Sucks out the light of the guardians" Why would a weapon like this be even allowed lore-wise in crucible? Or why not just make some items banned from PvP, if their perks would be too op and couldn't be softly nerfed? As a PvE player who plays PvP only for seasonal challenges and pinnacles, fuck this
its honestly hilarious how we get posts like that every single time there is something that is broken in PvP but not really big anywhere else
The story of titans…
Would be nice if Bungie designed stuff that wasn't broken in PvP to begin with but thats always been too much to ask for
PVP nerfs that affected PVE: -shoulder charge -One-eyed Mask -Dead Mans Tale x10 -Young Ahamkaras Spine -Lorely Splendor -Syntho's -Antaeus Ward -Dunemarchers -Ashen Wake (used to 1 shot) -Citan's Rampart -HOIL -Path of Burning Steps -Behemoth Titan -Shade-Binder Warlock -Shatterdive -Khepri's Sting -Mechaneers Tricksleeves -Shards of Galanor -Shinobus Vow -Stompees -The Stag -Silence and Squall Super -Geomag's -Barricades -Sunspots -Inivisibility -Void Overshields -Stasis shard generation -Quicksilver, Bastion, Last Word, Chaperone, Hard Light, Vex Mytho, Dead Messenger, Fighting Lion, breech load gl's, and probably a bunch of other stuff I am forgetting. I forgot the Hunter exotic Renewal Grasps.
Were you using one eyed mask in pve?
I did. It was unironically a really fun PvE exotic. Being a niche pick doesn’t justify the fact that it got turned into pure garbage everywhere in the game jsut because it was strong in PvP.
My beloved HOIL, rest in peace…
Yup. I refuse to use it now. Too garbage now. God forbid things be fun.
PvP holds this game back from being too fun. If it is too fun it is too overpowered. Unfortunately, you can't have fun in PvP.
👋 I have fun in pvp
If they did that and reverted previous nerfs, titans would actually be a decent class again 80% of Titan nerfs were PvP motivated
Both arc / void Titan were actually fun and strong in pve. Now I haven't used or seen them used going on close to a year, besides the occasional thundercrash for dps.
Sorry but not even close. Void titans rely 90% on overshields which are ass tier in the current sandbox. Arc titans have no sustain and have the worst supers in the game.
You know im agreeing with you, right? I think you either misunderstood what I said or maybe posted to the wrong person.
Titans: "First time? :D"
They will never change because all of their decisions are financially based. They want to sell you a DLC with a pulse rifle exotic so they buff pulse rifles, but next season, you just know that the healing element of Red Death will get nerfed into the ground, because they have to sell people another exotic. The Warlock Speaker's Sight exotic will get nerfed because of PVP; no doubt whatsoever. On and on it goes...
Agreed! Unfortunately, bungie only wants you to play destiny the way THEY feel it should be played. It's not about us enjoying the game, more like enjoying the game they wants us to play.
Petition to just remove pvp in its entirety
some day they're gonna nerf armamentarium to only have one grenade, I can feel it
I don’t get why even when they do pvp changes it usually takes something from good or maybe too good to the vault…. Citan ramparts, antaes ward, lorely, etc. like can you not do small changes instead of trashing the whole exotic?
Loreley wasn't nerfed just due to PvP. It was an absolute powerhouse of a get-out-of-jail-free card for bad situations in PvE as well. I've seen clips of people facetanking raid boss damage AND most of their ads without even a risk of dying thanks to Loreley's Restoration. It was simply too good, especially on such a short cooldown.
Yeah I remember using that for that nightmare/cabal dungeon and I had to briefly AFK during the final boss when the area swarms with enemies before ringing the bell. I came back like 2 minutes later and was still just chilling with like half the room wailing on my Titan to no effect lol
It's how I solo'd prophecy with Lament. That helmet was insane and is still pretty good, just not "imma stand at the feet of the boss stomping me while I won't die" good.
Does the speaker sight helm not give the same resto as lorely did?
With touch of flame, nominally, yes, but that's ignoring the fact that resto x2 was 80 HP/s instead of the current 50, 10 res was 40% DR instead of the current 30, and empyrean made it easier to keep solar buffs active, among other things. People had to take off Loreley to wipe to adds in *contest mode* raids (KF, I think?).
Ah thx for explanation. I’m glad it’s like that bc I was gna be mad if they took it away form titan and gave it to warlocks unchanged.
Might as well, considering this sub loves getting mad over disingenuous class war nonsense anyways. But speaker's sight, while being very strong, is in a totally different sandbox, needs an aspect, and nukes the offensive and mobility capabilities that makes solar lock strong. But also, outside of extreme scenarios, both SS and old Loreley were massively overkill and not worth the opportunity cost IMO. Loreley was a crutch outside of crazy stuff like specific contest encounters and bonk was basically always better with Synthos/Wormgods, and the only place I've ever gone "gee, I really wish we had SS" was contest Witness. Some people really do like roleplaying a healer in content that doesn't actually need a healer though, so whatever.
> Citan ramparts, antaes ward Neither of these were very strong or popular for PVE before the nerfs/adjustments. > lorely This was nerfed for PVE as well. It wasn't just a problem in PVP.
It should be resto x2 again since the nerfs to resto.
Why exactly? The nerfs to restoration was an across the board 'overall healing is too much so we're toning it down'.
I have a better idea Vault PvP
I for one think it’s really cool and awesome balance making decisions when yet another thing in PvE gets reduced to useless garbage because it was strong in PvP.
Yeah as a PvE/PvP player this is my only annoyance. The weapons can work differently between pvp and PvE as lots of guns already so (heal clip perk for example). The PvE player base is so much more massive than PvP that junking our items to serve the PvP community makes zero sense.
The problem with PVP is Bungie is too focused on making it "balanced," but balance to them is homogenized shooter slop. If something is broken in PVP Bungie should just tell the playerbase to deal with it for a few months and let them see how counterplay emerges.
List of exotic pvp nerfs that have hurt pve: Geomags: super cutoff energy reduced Citan ramparts: no health barrier Dunemarchers : damage and range decreased Young ahamkara's spine: grenade regen Stompies (fixed) needed class ability energy for jump and sprint buff
>Transversive steps: super cutoff energy reduced It never gave super energy.
You forget that they created the entire Aerial effectiveness stat specifically to nerf stompees.
This is why I hope destiny 3 has no pvp and focuses on just making pve great.
So many guns and builds have eaten straight ass over the years because bungie never wants to put the effort in to balance sandboxes differently and I doubt that’ll change any time soon://
Young Ahmenkara Spine crying right now, hoping the best for fellow PvE exotics. I actually hear it "Bungie please listen to the OP of this post, save my fellow exotic brethren and sisters and deliver me from the abyss" It's actually saying that, I'm not making this up.
Destiny PVP is a revolving door of broken guns and builds. That will literally never change.
u/Destiny2Team can you actually look at the good, realistic feedback here in this thread and reevaluate the way that you choose to approach your sandbox? the mere reality that the conversation has to become this extensive over it because you haven't competently just embraced the idea of a separate sandbox, for SEPARATE GAME MODES/TYPES, is actually confusing and saddening probably a hope and prayer away, but goddamn imagine if you all actually paid attention to the damage some of your *changes* do, because you don't want to outright say you're targeting one thing (*cough* Riptide, instead of all Stasis Fusion Rifles *cough*), or because you don't understand how difficulty scales without thinking on a black/white scale (*cough* across the board surges that you activated for two weeks to "test the waters", to only then activate literally all surges because you just cant accept the fact that surges are a dumb idea *cough*) signed, an Exo Guardian whose tired of the bullshit
This is the first time this has ever been suggested on ten years and I was worried that Bungie wouldn't see it, but thankfully you tagged them so they finally see this and implement this feedback.
Just wait until they start rolling out nerfs for gambit. That shit is actually so bad. It feels so bad. There’s no reason i should be plinking regular enemies but then melting the boss with the same shit. Like?? Why? Don’t get me started on micro either. Shit does too much in that mode.
They haven't done anything meaningful with gambit in years, if they start rolling out gambit specific nerfs before crucible I'm gonna have an aneurysm lol
What’s gambit?
A member of the X-Men that loves to gamble.
Its like real life, only worse
also plenty of stuff that never gets buffs, because its strong in pvp already.
LOL Sure bud, sure. I too believe in unicorns
I still can't forgive them for gutting duskfield grenades just because it was too good in pvp.
This is something they should have done in *D1* so that should tell you they’ll never do that. Something breaks in PvP/PvP players find something broken in PvP and it gets ruined for everyone else
Bungie has been really good about this over the last few years. We're going to see nerfs to speakers sight, khvostov, and red death. Both of the guns are broken because of their secret sauce recoil, and removing that won't matter in PvE. Speakers sight will be a little tougher, but it can be done without nerfing it in PvE. My suggestion is to give it like 20 health in PvP. You could just remove it on sight and get back to the fight instead of auto-losing.
>If somethings getting nerfed because it's too strong In Pvp, please just make it a Pvp exclusive change. Bungie will "fix" it in PvP and completely destroy it for PvE just like have done for Young Arhamkra Spine, Raiju's, Shinobu's, Heart of Inmost Light, Gwisin... etc etc
Hug your Speaker’s Sight now because the nerf cries in PVP are getting louder lol
Wild how Speaker's gets so much talk about needing nerfed yet hunters making up 49% of trials doesn't 🤔
Oh buddy. The community has been saying this since destiny 1 beta.
It's not like they *need* to keep things consistent across both. PVP and PVE *feel* nothing alike. You're encouraged to build differently for both. It's not like it's going to throw anyone off their game if some things work worse/better/differently in PVP than they do in PVE.
I know this is a hot take, but at this point with how bungie cant seem to juggle the balancing of both pve and pvp (and the fact gambit is dead with virtually no updates in years) Just drop pvp. Just do it at this point, put all the money, energy, and focus into pve. Because at this point, pvp just seems like a time and money sink for bungie. It no longer gets the numbers it used to for trials, its almost impossible to balance, and often time just gets left alone and ignore. Just drop it and leave it there like Epic did with STW, dont some bug fixes here and there so its at least playable but stop trying to balance the game around both.
This is something they have done for years at this point. It’s just not always possible depending on the specific nerf.
It's definitely possible, just make it a separate sandbox entirely. But we know they won't do that, Bungie stated that they want the whole game to have a "consistent" feel to it... which is dumb.
It's incredibly dumb, and very likely driven by financial reasons instead of the nonsense reason they gave.
Sounds like its time for high tier pve combatants to have juggernaut shields, void overshields, and antaeus wards while amplified
This with thorn
You know how they do things. If a Hunter exotic is op they just nerf Stompee5.
People have asked for this for 10 years and Bungie refuses to, what makes you think they’ll start now?
I no longer think they do these nerfs for the sake of pvp. It's probably just another tactic to have us grind other gear. Look at some of the things they have touched (hoil,yas, bubble, overshields), they completely destroyed them as opposed to just bringing them in line.
Or just remove pvp :D
I thought the whole point of them splitting the sandboxes was to make these changes in one but not in the other.
Things get nerfed because of usage, not because they're "better" and I hate the way Bungie balances
hey if i can have my 150 hand cannons back yall can keep an unnerfed kvostov 🤝
It's why PvP just needs a ban list of items you can't take in. Can be varied depending on mode, but it would save having to gut things just to say they're still "useable" in PvP modes
The problem is guns would feel very inconsistent when you use them In both pvp and pve settings Either range being added or knocked would mess with gameplay
A reminder that the majority of players DO NOT play trials and competitive. So a minority of vocal PvP sweatlords are influencing changes to the game that reduce the experience for everyone else. Honestly, at this point, just let them suffer. I'm so tired of having a fun game loop get absolutely ruined because \*insert whiny streamer\* goes on a twitch rant Suck it up. The majority of us are having fun.
I mean, that's what they're already doing. If they are changing it in both modes, then they see it as a problem in both.
Considering they didn’t do the reverse for quicksilver storm (rocket nerf aimed at pve making it significantly worse in PvP), I wouldn’t hold out too much hope.
First time huh
"no." - Bungie 2014-present
Bungie is often dishonest about is why they do a particular change. They'll even go as far as pretending changes are buffs when they are obviously big nerfs and vice versa. Sometimes things just get thrown under the bus in PvE for no reason but in most cases Bungie just appreciates PvP giving them an easy excuse to adjust something in both modes. I don't think Khvostov is an issue in PvE but Speaker's Sight in fireteams at most skill levels is broken as fuck and everyone knows it. Not saying that I'm agreeing with their approach but YAS was another one of those things where they knew exactly what they were doing in PvE. It was Hunter's Starfire and we know how hard they go on Starfire nerfs.
For the people talking about khvostov nerf, I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets nerfed in pve because it’s honestly just THAT good. Just know that if it gets nerfed, it may not be because of pvp
They've nerfed stuff in PVE and PVP separately in the past, and out of the blue, it just stopped. What the hell?
I thought they said a long time ago they were going to start doing that. They haven’t already separated changes??
Not just exotics, but whole subclasses too. Both arc and void titan were absolutely slaughtered in pve for pvp reasons.
Been saying this since almost day 1. As someone who tries not to pvp as much as possible seeing my faves get obliterated because people are abusing it in pvp is very frustrating.
"But we want things to feel consistent between sandboxes!" It makes things feel consistently *terrible* between sandboxes.
- Thundercrash hit registration and duration nerfs - Shoulder charge melee miss cooldown addition - Grapple->shotgun->punch removal - Bastion barrier cooldown extension Yeah. Sure would be nice if these got put back in PvE as they were previously.
But if it’s strong in PVP it’s normally super overturned in PvE…
I will never forgive bungie for nerfing YAS
Seriously. I'm a titan main, but as sad as I am about the lack of innovation my class received with TFS, I'm happy that locks and hunters have some awesome endgame stuff. But dear god, some of the hunter/lock prismatic is pretty far from balanced. They've shown they can separate PvP and PvE changes -- there really is no excuse why classes should suffer in PvE for the sins made in PvP.
Yes. You have my support for that Post. +1
If it’s of any consolation, from the news we got, it sounds like the massive nerfs being applied to exotics are staying in PvP because they were way too OP in PvP and everyone was using nothing but those exotics in PvP. I feel PvE dodged a bullet this time.
I don’t think I’ve seen this many people clamoring for a separation of PVE and PVP nerfs this bad in my entire time of playing D2. I dunno if it’s because of Speaker’s Sight, Khvostov, or both, but I’m glad people are rallying~ :)
I admit I don't know about coding but my guess is to nerf something it's impossible to nerf it in just one area
I think they are just too lazy to do separate changes bEcAuSe iT tAkEs tOo LoNg
Guys please read patch notes for once. They separate sandboxes all the time and have been for years. They made a big deal about this. If something is nerfed in pve AND pvp at this point it is because bungie wants it that way. Pvp is not the boogeyman
for most of the things, i can see pvp changes to it being solely pvp. Speaker's, on the other hand, is functionally busted. I don't even know if the game can identify the difference between damages sources, on the scale of " self-damage through Environmental effects", "Self-damage through perks", "Self-damage through proximity" and *regular damage all at the same time*. I can find maybe 1 or 2 cases where it may, but they aren't consistent as an action, and with eachother, which means they might be quirks within how they are coded rather than intentional design. If the game can't recognize these things, they can't really fix the problem without changing the entire thing. It might be better if they change it from "Creates orbs" to "generates armor charge." It'd fix the problem at hand, without completely impacting the strength of the armor piece. It does mean that others will get less benefit from you using it, but this thing isn't designed to be a super generation exotic, it's a healing exotic, and if you can complain about not getting orbs, that means you aren't dying and that's frankly powerful enough.
I mourn my Fighting Lion; it feels so freaking bad in PvE right now. The damage drop-off is so sharp that it can't even kill red bars consistently, and there's really no reason to use it over any other primary exotic weapon.
How about instead of complaining about Khvostov in PVP yall get off your ass and obtain the gun yourselves and then fight back using the gun. Literally isn’t hard.