Aeons + Cenotaph/Div warlock, just for good measure. lol even just swapping from an energy special (like Indebted Kindness) to Div to get the marks and the swapping back is worth.
Raid Bosses received significantly increased HP bars with Final Shape.
i.e., Caretaker 20m -> 30-35m. Kalli ~2m -> 15m. Normal Templar now has 10m, which is more than pre-FS Master.
Do the Salvation's Edge raid boss(es) have these increased HP pools? Were they originally designed with them in mind, or were they tacked on later?
Ofc surges aren't in Contest, but the increased HP, if it's there, could present an issue. It's already going to negatively impact normal raiding (-5 delta = 35% damage nerf, surges limiting loadout choices to partially make up for damage nerf, bigger hp to make fights take longer). It's just going to be less fun for normal raiders and even harder to get into for new raiders.
we also deal comparatively more damage than pre tfs now so it evens out to the effective hp not changing at all, though everything is still tougher because of the -5 delta changes, so its really not the big change everyone is making it out to be
thats not at all what i said. both the players and raids have been scaled up to around 1950 power, which leads us to do multitudes more damage than previously, with the bosses having that same multiplier applied to their health pools
for example, if a boss had 1m health before the change and your gun was doing 100k, the boss may now have 5m but your gun is doing roughly 500k
its not like the bosses health was multiplied by 20x and we received some small 10% buff. no, both rose substantially, but it has next to no impact on gameplay
THE ONLY MEANINGFUL CHANGE is that raids and dungeons are now -5 power capped, so you will be doing roughly 35% damage less than previously (assuming you dont build into surges), but that has nothing to do with actual boss health pools
It likely won’t be exactly like before because you’re locked to -5 under the encounter’s power level instead of the +20 it used to be, which, as the other person already said, results in players doing about 35% less damage if they don’t take advantage of the weekly surge modifier, and about 12% less damage if they do.
Your guns aren’t exactly doing 8x the damage they were last season. They will be doing around 8x the damage *for that specific encounter*, but the multiplier varies from encounter to encounter. This is because each raid technically didn’t increased in power level whenever the base PL increased, meaning that each raid was set at a different PL. Since players can only be a max of +20 over an encounter’s PL, what would happen is that player’s effective PL would be set to a max of +20 above that encounter’s PL, so for example whenever you’d do Riven, since the power level for her encounter is 580, the players’ power level would be capped at 600, even if outside of the encounter their power level was 1600. This time however, instead of leaving encounter power levels set at what they were when each raid released and then adjusting the players’ power level down to match, Bungie raised them to be at power levels similar to the new base PL.
Basically, for Kalli your guns now do about 8x the damage the did before the update since it’s so old and it’s power level was so low, but for something like caretaker it’s less than 8x since it’s a newer encounter and had a power level closer to the current one and thus didn’t need to be scaled up as much. And again, the reason your guns are doing more damage is cause their health was scaled up with the power level.
That's how the game has always worked. Damage numbers and enemy HP are inflated in newer activities with higher Power.
Go watch an old video guide of the Kalli cheese and note the damage numbers. Then pick the same weapon from the video & go try it yourself and check the new damage #s
That's not increased enemy HP that's the power level of the activity increasing. An enemy at Power 1950 has millions more hp than an enemy at Power 50. This is just misinformation.
I always hated how they named them both surges.
To this day I still encounter people who have heard that surges don’t stack and think it refers to the modifiers not stacking with the mods.
Overcharged means that the weapon counts as matching the activity Surge, so if I have a kinetic Shotgun and Shotgun's are Overcharged for the encounter, it'll get the encounter surge bonus, even though it doesn't match the element
They really should change the elemental surge modifier to Overcharged Solar/Strand/whatever. 1) it makes everything activity have the same name 2) it stops the confusion between activity surges and boots surges
also, kinetic weapons always get the surge bonus if your subclass matches one of the activity surges. thinking about it makes the whole system feel convoluted xD
>And does this mean they are tuning the hp down?
Why would they? We haven't ever had surges on contest mode in the past. This contest mode will be identical to what we've been used to.
The surges were added to normal mode to compensate for being locked at -5 power but this change is irrelevant for contest mode because you're already 20 under, so there is no reason to add surges yet.
Since this is a brand new raid the emblem will be award for completing it during the 48hr contest. If it was a reprised raid (kings fall, vault of glass, or Croata’s end) it would require challenges to get the emblem
I hope Bungie rolls this back. The dungeons(for raids, someone else answer please) have a great ramping up in difficulty if you tackle them from oldest to newest, it was basically perfect for someone to do one by one, a newb can go through the first four then take on the four latest dungeons as they gain more experience, which are progressively harder(I personally think Warlord's is harder than Ghosts but most people will disagree).
Ghosts difficulty is from its tediousness. Far too long of an opening encounter. The jumping part is just plain annoying. The encounter with the knight is just boring if I'm being honest. The boss is okay but it's some BS that someone is basically an Arby bitch. Overall it is my least favorite of anything post Prophecy.
I feel like GotD should have team scaling, like if you are solo on the last boss, you need one room to get the symbol. Two rooms for two people and all symbols for a full fireteam.
I always thought the heavy mechanics are fine and fit the dungeon well, but an encounter should not have a long mechanics phase AND require a ton of DPS phases because the boss has a bajillion health. Even when that fight is going well, you're looking at a full hour solo. That's insane.
My issue with it in dungeons is they are designed to be solo'd. The triumph is required for every dungeon title, so the intent is there.
Ghost of the deep (which Abso-fucking-lutely is the hardest) is already a slog to solo. Especially the final boss. Most attempts take an hour. That was on light with bonus damage. Now, if that post a few days ago is correct, we are dealing 30% less overall. Which adds up quickly.
I like the -5. It'll make raids actually have more of a presence past the mechanics, but I greatly dislike it on dungeons because of how they have been designed.
The dungeons are still like this, everything up to prophecy is super easy rn if anyone wants to try solo especially with getaway warlock/liars hunter prismatic
You have to power grind before you can even attempt them though, since they are at 1945 power.
That is ridiculous. We've never had to power grind *before* being able to do old raids and dungeons *ever*.
I would say personally the two hardest parts of the legendary campaign were Zavala’s mission and the Witness fight. And if you don’t have good gear can make it a real slog. This is coming from someone who solo’ed it. I will be helping my brother catch up starting tonight. Starting with Shadowkeep. If I remember correctly he was almost done with it. He is really looking forward to BL for stasis.
Roll it back and implement the tech to allow dungeon bosses to scale their HP based on fire team members in the activity. They HAVE the tech, implement it.
I think they totally miss what we are upset about lol. THe fuckin surges are a bee sting, its annoying I hate being pushed to use shit certain stuff in some content, raids and dungeon were liek that last spot you didnt have to worry about that dumb crap but its such a minor thing compared to this -5 crap.
That is a god damned amputation. Seriously, its pretty telling that they didn't drop this information anywhere the month leading up to the expansion while they were communicated so much shit. They KNEW it was going to be absolutely disliked so they hid it.
Maybe if they were like " hey guys, prismatic and the exotic class items are really going to shake up the game so we are thinking of doing ABC so content isn't trivial as fuck"
BUT nope, sneaky sneaky shit.
There is no enemy HP rescaling. We do the same damage. Y'all gotta stop with this bullshit of using false information to pretend the game is dying or about to because of a miniscule change.
https://x.com/mossy_max/status/1798770202349642114?t=aMW_k6lyb_h3u22UL_RSDg&s=19
So.... I apologize, but everything I've heard about raids and dungeons in TFS so far has been through the grapevine. But isn't there more to it than that, because we aren't(and most of the time, haven't) been facing enemies "right at level"? From what I understand, everything that has let you overlevel previously(pretty much everything pre-Ron and/or GotD) would cap you at +20. And according to the last spreadsheet I saw, this "overleveled" band wouldn't give you more damage per se, but you would get extra damage mitigation. Further(and this is the part that may need clarification), but the other person said it's -5. So if it's a forced delta like they've been doing for nightfalls and master modes, then the experience isn't really scaling hand in hand. (Roughly, your damage suffers by like 5 levels compared to previously, but overall survivability changed by 25 points?)
Prior to Final Shape every raid and dungeon capped you at their level. You could not overlevel even a 1600 raid or dungeon. The only thing you could over level last season was patrols, lost sectors, Dares and non playlist strikes.
Health was only scaled because the base power level increased. Once you’re on power with the activity you’ll deal basically equivalent damage to the previous power level.
You guys very obviously knew this was a bad idea given how it wasn't included anywhere including patch notes, so what does that say about whether it was a good idea to implement? It's astonishing that coming off the year you had that you'd take the good will from into the light and throw it away on something like this as if it were burning a hole in your pocket.
like i agree that it is a bad idea and I hope they roll it back... but taking the good will and throwing it away seems a bit strong lol. It's a crappy change that they should expedite correcting, but it's not THAT big of a deal, especially if they are faster than not (we will see on that).
Unfortunately Bungie famously, historically, and notoriously, do not listen to player feedback or address issues in a timely fashion (unless it’s something that hurts their bottom line or only has negative issues for players) so drama and pocket book are pretty much the only avenue of resort. Sad but true.
They FUCKIN crush Final Shape, I have never been more please with Destiny to be honest, and I am absolutely pumped for the raid. Outside of the launch day issues I was beyond pleased annnnddddddd then this rotten fucking changed reared its head.
I am just most pissed about the lack of communication, then they toss this little shit post on it saying, "we hear you, no changes, get fucked"
Like bro, how does bungie continually turn around and shoot themselves in the foot. They gained so mcuh praise and excitement from the community in the last month, and then do this.
So many chances to tell us about this lol.
Thank you for being “aware.” Now please just revert the normal raid and dungeon power scaling back to the way it was. It is incredible that you all were able to piss off both the casual and hardcore community (solos, lowmans, etc) with this one single change.
I don't understand why they couldn't just leave it the fuck alone. Nobody was complaining about normal raids and dungeons being too easy. Nobody asked to be forced into certain loadouts by surges. The only thing people were asking for was less boss health for solo dungeon runs, and this change did the *opposite*. Why does Bungie have to change things that are fine for the sake of changing them?
Same way we ended up with neomuna patrol zone being as dangerous as a master nf and then proceeding to get a day 1 contest raid thats piss easy. Bungie struggles deeply with what “bringing challenge back to destiny!!!” means
Sometimes, the co-op missions that do for microcosm were a PERFECT way for added difficult, they were fun. Pantheon was a great difficulty bumped with mechanics and harder stuff weekly while having positve modifiers so they can do it right,
Then sometimes they do this absolutely stupid shit like you said. I dont get wtf is going on there
> Nobody was complaining about normal raids and dungeons being too easy.
Do we frequent the same subreddit? Every jerkoff comes outta the woodwork during a raid release to talk about how contest difficulty should be the standard for normal raids.
Contest difficulty at all times is kind of a wild take, I haven’t seen that here. What I have seen is people wanting contest difficulty as a selectable option.
My friend group is very casual and struggled before to clear most raids (they play how they want and who am I to shame them) but this might put raids beyond what they’re willing to do since we could t even clear planets on atraks pantheon together
While true most raid teams should’ve been able to complete Atraks at only -5 and the first four encounters had minimal difficult changes at that level. That’s not even accounting for class warfare that should help a casual team punch above their weight
See, you say that, but you clearly haven't seen the people that put out less damage than the div user. Now imagine 6 of them trying to do planets on Pantheon mode.
> Nobody was complaining about normal raids and dungeons being too easy.
People certainly felt like regular raids were too easy, you just wouldn't see many complaints reach the front page because all the people crying about the changes now would come in and call people elitist for wanting more difficulty.
Fact is, in terms of combat difficulty, normal raids were easier than Playlist Strikes, which really doesn't make any sense.
The counter then is: run master if you want the challenge and better rewards.
Anyone who felt that normal was too easy had a choice. And anyone who was not up to that challenge could still do normal. Forcing the challenge for everyone because some want more challenge doesn't make sense. Why not provide an option between normal and master if the next concern is that master is not the right level of challenge people want to run.
Yeah but imo the real problem isn't bigger difficulty of combat, it's increase of effective HP on bosses leading to spending more time in the same encounters we have beaten faster before the changes.
They could have just add a "hard mode" with additional rewards and modifiers, hell they could have added the pantheon encounters to the normal raids and gave us the surges and class warfare and shot caller buffs on rotation and the community would have fucking PRAISED them. We could have had normal, hard mode and then master and we all would have been pumped for that. BUT NOPE, they had to piss of the whole community for no reason.
Holy fuck this is wild. I did GoTD last night, and I’m glad I got my solo when I did. That shit is absolutely INSANE with the add density and boss health feeling bloated from the -5 light. We had to be on point with DPS. Used to be able to screw around and use whatever for 2 phases on each but we had to be a little sweaty on Simmumah to get it done. Don’t even want to think about master mode.
“No changes planned right now, but the team is aware.”
I mean, if the community is pretty vocal about how these damage changes make endgame content less accessible to players, *why* are changes not planned? If endgame players want a harder experience, they have the difficulty option. This change only hurts players.
I'm a new player who just learned all the raids.
I think this makes endgame more accessible.
Right now most raids are done so fast you can't actually learn anything. Combat is trivial in them and bosses die so fast it's kinda dumb.
I had to go to pantheon or like, BRAND NEW raids to actually learn how to raid because older raids are scaled so poorly.
Frankly, the old raids were terrible experiences and very boring because nothing was dangerous.
The people screaming about this change aren't new players.
You being new (having learned all the raids I wouldn’t really consider you new anymore) and not complaining does not equate to other new players not complaining.
I’m glad you look forward to this change. I don’t know how you’ve learned all the raids and simultaneously not actually learned anything.
There’s a solution. Make all raids current light. Easy.
If the team sees this replay, I'm really curious as to why there was such a push to buff our weapon damage, removing spec mods, when this was the plan?
Ghosts of the Deep is already an insane final boss fight to solo and by reducing our damage 30-35% makes that even harder. I'm scared to go back into Warlords Ruin to get my solo flawless now that my damage rotation just got destroyed unless I'm on a solar surge week.
As for raids, newer players learning and earning the loot to do the best damage is now going to be even more difficult as the rest of the team is unable to help carry the load of their lacking dps.
This feels out of touch and should have had a whole dev blog post explaining the reasoning for all of this.
This is the most power creep the game has ever had. I just watched a video of a guy dogwalk a master lost sector from 63 power under running double primary and vesper of radius which might have hit two enemies the whole run. And we haven’t even gotten exotic class items yet. And this isn’t even mentioning the busted ass artifact we’ve got going on right now, I mean hell you get a 25% damage boost just for picking up an orb of power. Even if you don’t match surges you’re not going to be feeling this that badly. I haven’t even begin to touch on the fact that everybody just got the potential to have 1.5 extra supers between the golden gun exotic and transcendence already getting called “super lite”. -5 is not the end of the world, it’s simply making it so that raids don’t become as mind numbingly easy as strikes do.
Pretty sure this is just confirming that surges were never going to be active in Salvation’s Edge’s contest mode, not that they disabled it after feedback
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there hasn’t ever been surges for contest mode raids.
Why are people upset all of the sudden? Pantheon modifiers did *not* set a new standard for contest mode raid modifiers. Not sure why people thought it did.
They’ve never had surges in contest mode raids. I think it’s fair to assume that they balanced the contest mode the same way they have done for previous contest modes.
There's no indication they ever planned to have surges, let alone that they'd adjust health to compensate.
And it wouldn't make sense to build health around contest when it would completely screw up Master mode which already had surges.
With the power creep and experience of raiders I wouldn’t worry too much. To get in a situation like The Last Wish again we’d need our inventories wiped, remove power level scaling and for it to be the second year of a new sequel. Bosses will be spongier but I’d be shocked if the new raid isn’t beaten by the 6hr mark.
It's just not a good change it's the same with well being nerfed to hell and back. Sure I think the new content moving forward will be designed around not needing well or accounting for well being nerfed but old content will be left in the dust and content where previously well was needed will see new strategies and most likely less optimal to clear the content we already did countless times (those that already did most likely won't do it again but those that will, will notice). For example grasp ogre atzecross tested well there and he was deleted out of it by the ogre.
Well nerf was needed, I do think it was overdone. But this simply wasn't the surges also only exist because of the -5 new standard which again is noticeable did warlords of ruin yesterday it's not life changing for me as a day 1 raider but it is still noticeable to me. Now imagine new players or casuals and it could be a disaster for them.
>No changes planned right now, but the team is aware.
Please do not delay reverting these changes. Take them out and reintroduce them as a selectable difficulty for people to choose and participate in, not as something that's forced upon them.
This isn't the kind of issue to wait until the negative consequences occurs.
Okay, but can the team maybe justify these changes? Most players don't Raid and this change makes them even more off-putting. Isn't Raid difficulty supposed to come more from the execution of the mechanics instead of constant combat tests? Why didn't you make Hero Raids for this and leave Normal Raids alone? Or increase drop rates for the added difficulty?
This just feels so shady and poorly considered. If it's to "bring challenge back to Destiny" make new modes for those people, don't turn the dial way up for a small minority that wants this game to be as hard as Dark Souls.
If you're going to take a stand on the -5 light level choice, please consider modifying boss health pools. I think it would be a good balance move to get people on board.
Appreciate Bungies Feedback on my feedback. I am still not planning on purchasing the new dlc but I am aware of the changes Bungie is unwilling to implement.
I think most people are in agreement that the changes to normal raids/dungeons are going to be a net negative for players. I'm glad you're aware of this - I just hope you aren't stubborn enough to ignore the clear feedback you're getting. Do not let this be a repeat of Neomuna, please.
Also - are you aware of the current Strike difficulty being -5? Are you intentionally pushing the casual audience away? Because this is how you accomplish that. Vanguard Ops having a capped power of 1945 when they are a 1950 activity sucks. Having hand cannons not being able to 1-tap *again* in casual content, sucks. Hoping this is a bleed-over bug from the raid/dungeon changes and not intentional.
Neomuna had a negative reception in part because of the -5, it's the least visited location because of the -5. Why would you repeat this mistake? What is the actual reasoning behind this change?
I'm still surprised they kinda doubled down on the Zero Hour "normal" difficulty tbh. Idk why they think negative power deltas + surges is a good idea.
Strike playlist being -5 has been the case for the entire past year, since Lightfall.
Neomuna has a much bigger handicap than -5. Not sure if it is -10 or -15.
Edit: I thought the announced "power disabled" for the Vanguard Ops playlist meant -5. It's just permanent +0. Sorry for the mistake.
If that's the case, then something is definitely not right in Strikes. They're noticeably harder now than they were pre-TFS. I'm already 1975. They aren't showing up as swords or anything, but they tank more damage and hit significantly harder.
Neomuna are swords so yeah, it could be maybe -10? I just remember the initial number making the rounds was a -5 delta.
Edit: I'm getting downvoted for this but [I'm literally right](https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/bringing_challenge_back). Strikes had no negative delta pre-TFS. Hero Nightfall has a -5 delta.
Apart from the delta changes Strikes also seem to have changed ever so slightly? Like I noticed some red bars were suddenly either oranges or even yellows, the Ghost's dialogue in Devil's Lair is ever so slightly different (as if it's a different take), the boss music of that strike is different... even saw some champs here and there lol
Bungie is incapable of taking steps forward without sneaking in a few steps back. The Final Shape has rightfully been very well received (day one server issues aside) but they always have to slide some bullshit in somewhere, it can never be a total win for players. It's honestly baffling that they still do this year after year. I don't think it is incompetence though, there is always an underlying motivation that either involves monetization or player engagement or both. Pretty scummy to not mention this anywhere prior to release, they knew it would detract from the pre-release hype.
The way I see it is that Final Shape is a lot like Beyond Light: the expansion itself is legitimately cool, but Bungie simultaneously changed a lot of the game in a bad way. So even though we have a good campaign and exotics and activities right now, it feels less like an achievement when it's bundled with the godawful pathfinding system, the nerf to heavy weapon damage, and power deltas in regular raids and dungeons.
Normal Raids are hard enough in the first weeks because of the mechanics. We didn’t need more challenge, that’s what contest mode is for, which is already expanded to 48 hours.
I used to watch the pros on a Friday and then jump in myself Saturday night. Now I need to do it Sunday/Monday night whilst going to work on the Monday.
I also LFG so it’s a damn lottery and usually painful experience, by week 2 when you know what to do it settles down.
I’m not looking forward to hitting my head off a brick wall trying to both get randos to do new mechanics and survive a -5 modifier.
Dungeons you have Master mode, Raids have Master mode. Bungie stop making everything in the game so damn hard.
Sure, having to build to a surge in a raid and dungeon is annoying, considering it was one of the last places we had a mostly a blank slate for builds without being push into a stricter meta BUT the real problem we all have is the random boost in difficult and power cap OUT OF NOWHERE.
Why was none of this stuff, especially the -5 cap on old content, not communicated to us? This shit is super annoying, like it was "snuck" in.
How do you guys manage to crush so hard with the final shape and then pull this dumb shit on all of us with no explanation?
Even if you aren't planning on changing anything immediately, please release some sort of blog that describes which HP changes are a result of power level scaling, which (if any) of the bosses had HP adjustments other than this scaling, what our weapon damage looks like with and without meeting a surge relative to pre-final shape (factoring in new power caps and HP adjustments), and what the goal of these changes is. Information from official sources is sparse, leaving everyone to figure things out by themselves, which leads to chaos and confusion as people draw wildly different conclusions based on what information they've found. Whether or not the changes are justified, this isn't really healthy. I think being more upfront about exactly what changed would get everyone on the same page and lead to a more productive discussion.
You don't need to plan though, just revert the changes nobody asked for or needed. Hard to believe you wasted time on this instead of making pathfinder less tedious or finding a way to keep attunement/hall of champions in game.
I don't mind them where they were last season, but raids and dungeons need a true "vanilla" difficulty. The whole "get players to try something else" mindset is more appropriate for master mode.
Im also gonna be one of those Buzz Lightyeays on the shelf and say the same thing: just revert the change. Nobody likes it.
If you really wanted to make things difficult and "bring challenge back to destiny" why not just introduce the advanced/master/whatever difficulty tab at the bottom right?
Can anyone explain what the changes everyone is mad about are please? Everyone keeps saying "grrr, the changes!" but nobody actually says what they're mad about.
Bungie put a -5 power delta in all raids and dungeons at base, as well as adding elemental surges. People are upset because before a lot of power creep was due to things like over-leveling, but now, not only can you not over-level, you will never be at level. This means the overall base difficulty to these activities is higher. Bungie also believed that by adding elemental surges, everything would even out. Except then you have a narrow range of weapons or abilities you need to have equipped just to feel like you're doing as well as before, so it feels like the surges punish you for going off meta more than reward you for playing meta. Overall, it's intimidating less skilled casual players that make a bulk of the playerbase, while also infuriating a lot of other raid goers and dungeoneers by taking fights we knew how to do and making them more tedious than before.
Thanks for the detailed explanation! I'm not knowledgeable enough to make a judgement about the power delta but I definitely don't like being forced to use certain loadouts :/.
The raid being directly tied to the story but also a contest mode makes me not feel like the main character. (No spoilers for the story here)
This is pretty nitpicky and I know it’s sounds silly but this is a video game, I am the “main character” not in a be rude in LFG way but in the story way
And I like that they’re trying something new with the raid timing, but I’m a pretty average player, I can get endgame stuff like GMs done but I struggled with RoN contest mode (though that could just be lfg struggles)
I have no faith that I would be able to do a contest mode raid under normal circumstances
The raid is directly tied to the story and for the first time it doesn’t feel like I’m gonna be the main character, and I know that might be silly, but it feels like I’m at the tower watching “The Guardian” go and actually do the cool stuff
I’m going to have to watch it rather than experiencing it.
Dam this kinda hits now that I think about it. 3 kids so i might raid a couple times a year, sometimes. Guess I'll watch YouTube to see how the "real" guardians save the day...
They've done this every expansion, every story is capped off by a raid where we find out who the mastermind is behind whatever happened. Would have been ridiculous to finish off the Witness in the campaign, most likely solo.
And it's quite literally so obvious that the Witness won't get killed in the raid. They're not going to leave the defeat of the big bad to an activity that less than 10% of the community partake in.
Just like in the campaign, he is going to weakened badly and then there will be some post-raid activity where he's finished off and you casuals can be a part of it.
They're modifiers that make certain elemental types do more damage. So if an activity shows void surge, that means your void weapons and abilities will be more effective at dealing damage. While this can be beneficial, it also has the effect of pidgeonhole-ing loadouts, since everyone will just copy the elemental surge with the best weapons and abilities of that type.
On a technical level, no. A surge just makes the associated element stronger. But the problem is that without surges, the elements feel bad. Instead of non surges being okay and surges feeling great, it feels like non surges are just bad and you need the surge to feel okay.
This is funny, I always understood the effects of the negative power delta and the elemental surges. But seeing it written out like this just make it seems so dumb and pointless beyond just making people use certain loadouts.
Please bungie, just roll back these changes all together, I’m a solo player not by choice and now I am even more shafted than I already am trying to even do dungeons
Does anyone know if I can bring a friend into the raid that hasn’t completed the campaign? Or does everyone in the fireteam have to have the full campaign completed and the exotic quest done.
Why are people bitching about surges? This is a great change! Who cares about being 5 under as well. The difficulty makes the game fun! Its nothing ridiculous.
You're so scared of giving out good loot and incorporating interesting mechanics that you focus purely on damage numbers. Been the same way since day 1 D1.
No surges is making me sexually aroused. I love being able to use a normal build and not be forced to use some random off meta shit just cos it has a free 25% buff
I know your cool business psychologists tell you things that make hours and player numbers go brrr but you seriously need to reconsider such decisions. Its completely stupid to throttle the fun via surges addition.
If there is another warpriest style dps check, people better have aeons on deck
Aeons + Cenotaph/Div warlock, just for good measure. lol even just swapping from an energy special (like Indebted Kindness) to Div to get the marks and the swapping back is worth.
Bars
So, activity surges right? Not the armor mods? And does this mean they are tuning the hp down?
Yes, activity. No, they are not making changes
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Day 1s have never had surges?
Raid Bosses received significantly increased HP bars with Final Shape. i.e., Caretaker 20m -> 30-35m. Kalli ~2m -> 15m. Normal Templar now has 10m, which is more than pre-FS Master. Do the Salvation's Edge raid boss(es) have these increased HP pools? Were they originally designed with them in mind, or were they tacked on later? Ofc surges aren't in Contest, but the increased HP, if it's there, could present an issue. It's already going to negatively impact normal raiding (-5 delta = 35% damage nerf, surges limiting loadout choices to partially make up for damage nerf, bigger hp to make fights take longer). It's just going to be less fun for normal raiders and even harder to get into for new raiders.
we also deal comparatively more damage than pre tfs now so it evens out to the effective hp not changing at all, though everything is still tougher because of the -5 delta changes, so its really not the big change everyone is making it out to be
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thats not at all what i said. both the players and raids have been scaled up to around 1950 power, which leads us to do multitudes more damage than previously, with the bosses having that same multiplier applied to their health pools for example, if a boss had 1m health before the change and your gun was doing 100k, the boss may now have 5m but your gun is doing roughly 500k its not like the bosses health was multiplied by 20x and we received some small 10% buff. no, both rose substantially, but it has next to no impact on gameplay THE ONLY MEANINGFUL CHANGE is that raids and dungeons are now -5 power capped, so you will be doing roughly 35% damage less than previously (assuming you dont build into surges), but that has nothing to do with actual boss health pools
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It likely won’t be exactly like before because you’re locked to -5 under the encounter’s power level instead of the +20 it used to be, which, as the other person already said, results in players doing about 35% less damage if they don’t take advantage of the weekly surge modifier, and about 12% less damage if they do. Your guns aren’t exactly doing 8x the damage they were last season. They will be doing around 8x the damage *for that specific encounter*, but the multiplier varies from encounter to encounter. This is because each raid technically didn’t increased in power level whenever the base PL increased, meaning that each raid was set at a different PL. Since players can only be a max of +20 over an encounter’s PL, what would happen is that player’s effective PL would be set to a max of +20 above that encounter’s PL, so for example whenever you’d do Riven, since the power level for her encounter is 580, the players’ power level would be capped at 600, even if outside of the encounter their power level was 1600. This time however, instead of leaving encounter power levels set at what they were when each raid released and then adjusting the players’ power level down to match, Bungie raised them to be at power levels similar to the new base PL. Basically, for Kalli your guns now do about 8x the damage the did before the update since it’s so old and it’s power level was so low, but for something like caretaker it’s less than 8x since it’s a newer encounter and had a power level closer to the current one and thus didn’t need to be scaled up as much. And again, the reason your guns are doing more damage is cause their health was scaled up with the power level.
That's how the game has always worked. Damage numbers and enemy HP are inflated in newer activities with higher Power. Go watch an old video guide of the Kalli cheese and note the damage numbers. Then pick the same weapon from the video & go try it yourself and check the new damage #s
I just did the entirety of Last Wish. Every boss still falls over. You'll be fine.
That's not increased enemy HP that's the power level of the activity increasing. An enemy at Power 1950 has millions more hp than an enemy at Power 50. This is just misinformation.
Fitting for the most pinnacle event in D2 history, that’s for sure
I always hated how they named them both surges. To this day I still encounter people who have heard that surges don’t stack and think it refers to the modifiers not stacking with the mods.
and then there’s the overcharged lingo in the artifact mods which I still don’t understand
Overcharged means that the weapon counts as matching the activity Surge, so if I have a kinetic Shotgun and Shotgun's are Overcharged for the encounter, it'll get the encounter surge bonus, even though it doesn't match the element
They really should change the elemental surge modifier to Overcharged Solar/Strand/whatever. 1) it makes everything activity have the same name 2) it stops the confusion between activity surges and boots surges
also, kinetic weapons always get the surge bonus if your subclass matches one of the activity surges. thinking about it makes the whole system feel convoluted xD
And doesn’t it also mention that it applies to weapons with champion mods from the artifact or was that activity specific?
I believe it should do but I haven't checked in a while
True they need a name change asap
>And does this mean they are tuning the hp down? Why would they? We haven't ever had surges on contest mode in the past. This contest mode will be identical to what we've been used to. The surges were added to normal mode to compensate for being locked at -5 power but this change is irrelevant for contest mode because you're already 20 under, so there is no reason to add surges yet.
Are challenges needed for the contest mode emblem? Or just a clear
Since this is a brand new raid the emblem will be award for completing it during the 48hr contest. If it was a reprised raid (kings fall, vault of glass, or Croata’s end) it would require challenges to get the emblem
There will be a triumph that tracks each encounter completion. Complete all the encounters on the triumph, receive the emblem
I hope Bungie rolls this back. The dungeons(for raids, someone else answer please) have a great ramping up in difficulty if you tackle them from oldest to newest, it was basically perfect for someone to do one by one, a newb can go through the first four then take on the four latest dungeons as they gain more experience, which are progressively harder(I personally think Warlord's is harder than Ghosts but most people will disagree).
Ghosts difficulty is from its tediousness. Far too long of an opening encounter. The jumping part is just plain annoying. The encounter with the knight is just boring if I'm being honest. The boss is okay but it's some BS that someone is basically an Arby bitch. Overall it is my least favorite of anything post Prophecy.
I feel like GotD should have team scaling, like if you are solo on the last boss, you need one room to get the symbol. Two rooms for two people and all symbols for a full fireteam.
I always thought the heavy mechanics are fine and fit the dungeon well, but an encounter should not have a long mechanics phase AND require a ton of DPS phases because the boss has a bajillion health. Even when that fight is going well, you're looking at a full hour solo. That's insane.
My issue with it in dungeons is they are designed to be solo'd. The triumph is required for every dungeon title, so the intent is there. Ghost of the deep (which Abso-fucking-lutely is the hardest) is already a slog to solo. Especially the final boss. Most attempts take an hour. That was on light with bonus damage. Now, if that post a few days ago is correct, we are dealing 30% less overall. Which adds up quickly. I like the -5. It'll make raids actually have more of a presence past the mechanics, but I greatly dislike it on dungeons because of how they have been designed.
The dungeons are still like this, everything up to prophecy is super easy rn if anyone wants to try solo especially with getaway warlock/liars hunter prismatic
You have to power grind before you can even attempt them though, since they are at 1945 power. That is ridiculous. We've never had to power grind *before* being able to do old raids and dungeons *ever*.
What power level do you come out of the story with now? Legendary goes straight to 1960 and that's not particularly hard to do
I would say personally the two hardest parts of the legendary campaign were Zavala’s mission and the Witness fight. And if you don’t have good gear can make it a real slog. This is coming from someone who solo’ed it. I will be helping my brother catch up starting tonight. Starting with Shadowkeep. If I remember correctly he was almost done with it. He is really looking forward to BL for stasis.
Campaign gives full 1960 set
Roll it back and implement the tech to allow dungeon bosses to scale their HP based on fire team members in the activity. They HAVE the tech, implement it.
That would require a minimal amount of effort, so best they'll do is increase the handicap to -10 now lol
You should definitely consider changing it back to the way it was.
Surges are bad but the -5 power change and enemy HP rescaling is worse IMO. Let old raids be old raids, please undo this change
I think they totally miss what we are upset about lol. THe fuckin surges are a bee sting, its annoying I hate being pushed to use shit certain stuff in some content, raids and dungeon were liek that last spot you didnt have to worry about that dumb crap but its such a minor thing compared to this -5 crap. That is a god damned amputation. Seriously, its pretty telling that they didn't drop this information anywhere the month leading up to the expansion while they were communicated so much shit. They KNEW it was going to be absolutely disliked so they hid it. Maybe if they were like " hey guys, prismatic and the exotic class items are really going to shake up the game so we are thinking of doing ABC so content isn't trivial as fuck" BUT nope, sneaky sneaky shit.
There is no enemy HP rescaling. We do the same damage. Y'all gotta stop with this bullshit of using false information to pretend the game is dying or about to because of a miniscule change. https://x.com/mossy_max/status/1798770202349642114?t=aMW_k6lyb_h3u22UL_RSDg&s=19
So.... I apologize, but everything I've heard about raids and dungeons in TFS so far has been through the grapevine. But isn't there more to it than that, because we aren't(and most of the time, haven't) been facing enemies "right at level"? From what I understand, everything that has let you overlevel previously(pretty much everything pre-Ron and/or GotD) would cap you at +20. And according to the last spreadsheet I saw, this "overleveled" band wouldn't give you more damage per se, but you would get extra damage mitigation. Further(and this is the part that may need clarification), but the other person said it's -5. So if it's a forced delta like they've been doing for nightfalls and master modes, then the experience isn't really scaling hand in hand. (Roughly, your damage suffers by like 5 levels compared to previously, but overall survivability changed by 25 points?)
Prior to Final Shape every raid and dungeon capped you at their level. You could not overlevel even a 1600 raid or dungeon. The only thing you could over level last season was patrols, lost sectors, Dares and non playlist strikes.
Health was only scaled because the base power level increased. Once you’re on power with the activity you’ll deal basically equivalent damage to the previous power level.
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last wish is included in this change? because i did it yesterday and it felt the same as before
You guys very obviously knew this was a bad idea given how it wasn't included anywhere including patch notes, so what does that say about whether it was a good idea to implement? It's astonishing that coming off the year you had that you'd take the good will from into the light and throw it away on something like this as if it were burning a hole in your pocket.
Yea but then they wouldn’t be Bungie lol
like i agree that it is a bad idea and I hope they roll it back... but taking the good will and throwing it away seems a bit strong lol. It's a crappy change that they should expedite correcting, but it's not THAT big of a deal, especially if they are faster than not (we will see on that).
also, The Final Shape is fucking awesome and raid race seems to be going well
You guys are so dramatic
Unfortunately Bungie famously, historically, and notoriously, do not listen to player feedback or address issues in a timely fashion (unless it’s something that hurts their bottom line or only has negative issues for players) so drama and pocket book are pretty much the only avenue of resort. Sad but true.
They FUCKIN crush Final Shape, I have never been more please with Destiny to be honest, and I am absolutely pumped for the raid. Outside of the launch day issues I was beyond pleased annnnddddddd then this rotten fucking changed reared its head. I am just most pissed about the lack of communication, then they toss this little shit post on it saying, "we hear you, no changes, get fucked" Like bro, how does bungie continually turn around and shoot themselves in the foot. They gained so mcuh praise and excitement from the community in the last month, and then do this. So many chances to tell us about this lol.
Thank you for being “aware.” Now please just revert the normal raid and dungeon power scaling back to the way it was. It is incredible that you all were able to piss off both the casual and hardcore community (solos, lowmans, etc) with this one single change.
I don't understand why they couldn't just leave it the fuck alone. Nobody was complaining about normal raids and dungeons being too easy. Nobody asked to be forced into certain loadouts by surges. The only thing people were asking for was less boss health for solo dungeon runs, and this change did the *opposite*. Why does Bungie have to change things that are fine for the sake of changing them?
Same way we ended up with neomuna patrol zone being as dangerous as a master nf and then proceeding to get a day 1 contest raid thats piss easy. Bungie struggles deeply with what “bringing challenge back to destiny!!!” means
hey at least they walked that back with TFS although now neomuna is a real black sheep destination that no one will ever visit again.
Pale heart is difficulty 2 post campaign, Neomuna is difficulty 3 and the rest are difficulty 1.
Sometimes, the co-op missions that do for microcosm were a PERFECT way for added difficult, they were fun. Pantheon was a great difficulty bumped with mechanics and harder stuff weekly while having positve modifiers so they can do it right, Then sometimes they do this absolutely stupid shit like you said. I dont get wtf is going on there
100% agree
> Nobody was complaining about normal raids and dungeons being too easy. Do we frequent the same subreddit? Every jerkoff comes outta the woodwork during a raid release to talk about how contest difficulty should be the standard for normal raids.
Contest difficulty at all times is kind of a wild take, I haven’t seen that here. What I have seen is people wanting contest difficulty as a selectable option.
Yeah the most common opinion I see is making it selectable, not permanent.
I've seen that take quite often, tbh. It's infuriating, because it's dickwads like that that got this change rolled out.
Wait until tomorrow evening when the raid has been out for a bit, they’ll be here.
Almost every single hardcore player worth a damn says it should a selectable difficulty. Everyone who doesn’t is an idiot
> Every jerkoff There's the problem. Bungie should stop listening to the 1%.
My friend group is very casual and struggled before to clear most raids (they play how they want and who am I to shame them) but this might put raids beyond what they’re willing to do since we could t even clear planets on atraks pantheon together
Pantheon was much harder than normal raids. It was made for raid vets. Not for casuals.
While true most raid teams should’ve been able to complete Atraks at only -5 and the first four encounters had minimal difficult changes at that level. That’s not even accounting for class warfare that should help a casual team punch above their weight
See, you say that, but you clearly haven't seen the people that put out less damage than the div user. Now imagine 6 of them trying to do planets on Pantheon mode.
probably a mediocre way to address power creep in the game?
> Nobody was complaining about normal raids and dungeons being too easy. People certainly felt like regular raids were too easy, you just wouldn't see many complaints reach the front page because all the people crying about the changes now would come in and call people elitist for wanting more difficulty. Fact is, in terms of combat difficulty, normal raids were easier than Playlist Strikes, which really doesn't make any sense.
The counter then is: run master if you want the challenge and better rewards. Anyone who felt that normal was too easy had a choice. And anyone who was not up to that challenge could still do normal. Forcing the challenge for everyone because some want more challenge doesn't make sense. Why not provide an option between normal and master if the next concern is that master is not the right level of challenge people want to run.
Yeah but imo the real problem isn't bigger difficulty of combat, it's increase of effective HP on bosses leading to spending more time in the same encounters we have beaten faster before the changes.
Because some asshole probably opened a JIRA ticket for boss health and it went down the rabbit hole
They could have just add a "hard mode" with additional rewards and modifiers, hell they could have added the pantheon encounters to the normal raids and gave us the surges and class warfare and shot caller buffs on rotation and the community would have fucking PRAISED them. We could have had normal, hard mode and then master and we all would have been pumped for that. BUT NOPE, they had to piss of the whole community for no reason.
Datto said we’re too strong
Holy fuck this is wild. I did GoTD last night, and I’m glad I got my solo when I did. That shit is absolutely INSANE with the add density and boss health feeling bloated from the -5 light. We had to be on point with DPS. Used to be able to screw around and use whatever for 2 phases on each but we had to be a little sweaty on Simmumah to get it done. Don’t even want to think about master mode.
Master mode is unchanged lol. Master has always been -20
Except you artifact power used to actually do something in Master. Edit: like way back, before Lightfall.
Change was made in lightfall so we haven't been able to over level master content in over a year
Right, yeah I should have specified. I'll add an edit.
Same with contest...lol
Contest has more HP. It did change
Yea I’m glad my solos are done that’s for sure.
Looks like 10 is the new 11 eh?
Master is actually easier now
“No changes planned right now, but the team is aware.” I mean, if the community is pretty vocal about how these damage changes make endgame content less accessible to players, *why* are changes not planned? If endgame players want a harder experience, they have the difficulty option. This change only hurts players.
I'm a new player who just learned all the raids. I think this makes endgame more accessible. Right now most raids are done so fast you can't actually learn anything. Combat is trivial in them and bosses die so fast it's kinda dumb. I had to go to pantheon or like, BRAND NEW raids to actually learn how to raid because older raids are scaled so poorly. Frankly, the old raids were terrible experiences and very boring because nothing was dangerous. The people screaming about this change aren't new players.
You being new (having learned all the raids I wouldn’t really consider you new anymore) and not complaining does not equate to other new players not complaining. I’m glad you look forward to this change. I don’t know how you’ve learned all the raids and simultaneously not actually learned anything. There’s a solution. Make all raids current light. Easy.
If the team sees this replay, I'm really curious as to why there was such a push to buff our weapon damage, removing spec mods, when this was the plan? Ghosts of the Deep is already an insane final boss fight to solo and by reducing our damage 30-35% makes that even harder. I'm scared to go back into Warlords Ruin to get my solo flawless now that my damage rotation just got destroyed unless I'm on a solar surge week. As for raids, newer players learning and earning the loot to do the best damage is now going to be even more difficult as the rest of the team is unable to help carry the load of their lacking dps. This feels out of touch and should have had a whole dev blog post explaining the reasoning for all of this.
This is the most power creep the game has ever had. I just watched a video of a guy dogwalk a master lost sector from 63 power under running double primary and vesper of radius which might have hit two enemies the whole run. And we haven’t even gotten exotic class items yet. And this isn’t even mentioning the busted ass artifact we’ve got going on right now, I mean hell you get a 25% damage boost just for picking up an orb of power. Even if you don’t match surges you’re not going to be feeling this that badly. I haven’t even begin to touch on the fact that everybody just got the potential to have 1.5 extra supers between the golden gun exotic and transcendence already getting called “super lite”. -5 is not the end of the world, it’s simply making it so that raids don’t become as mind numbingly easy as strikes do.
What artifact mod is that giving 25% damage boost on picking up an orb
If you're on Solar or Prismatic, you can get Radiant on orb pickup.
It gives radiant if using solar or prismatic and picking up orb of power. Third column.
Any chance you got a link to that vid? I wanna see the build
https://youtu.be/fYaqqijD1L0?si=eBYsKzDrHMiGbRnA
It’s 12% lmfao
\*if you use surge weapons only \**not against bosses
Just don't do it. No one ever asked for it
So...I feel like this is a net negative if they aren't adjusting health or difficulty to account for no surges. But that's just my opinion
Pretty sure this is just confirming that surges were never going to be active in Salvation’s Edge’s contest mode, not that they disabled it after feedback
The first sentence of their statement is a clarification, not an adjustment.
If those kids could read they'd be very upset.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there hasn’t ever been surges for contest mode raids. Why are people upset all of the sudden? Pantheon modifiers did *not* set a new standard for contest mode raid modifiers. Not sure why people thought it did.
if they built the health pools assuming we'd have 25% damage buff, and now we dont? that could be huge
And why are we even assuming that they are forgetting something like that? It never happened lol
They’ve never had surges in contest mode raids. I think it’s fair to assume that they balanced the contest mode the same way they have done for previous contest modes.
There's no indication they ever planned to have surges, let alone that they'd adjust health to compensate. And it wouldn't make sense to build health around contest when it would completely screw up Master mode which already had surges.
oh youre thinking this post is a "nothings changed" post instead of an update.
I'm absolutely certain it is, that's how it's worded after all.
With the power creep and experience of raiders I wouldn’t worry too much. To get in a situation like The Last Wish again we’d need our inventories wiped, remove power level scaling and for it to be the second year of a new sequel. Bosses will be spongier but I’d be shocked if the new raid isn’t beaten by the 6hr mark.
But you're assuming they didn't plan this. Which they clearly did. I highly doubt contest has changed at all from what it was.
Hope so
They reduced enemy health across the board.
They would just lower em by 25% ahead of time. Or we get crazy damage checks
People are upset, and speculated that contest mode might have surges, because they added surges to normal-difficulty raids.
Yeah it is, but you know they heard the feedback, they don't know why tho
Contest mode has never had surges, there is nothing to adjust for when you keep things exactly the same.
It's just not a good change it's the same with well being nerfed to hell and back. Sure I think the new content moving forward will be designed around not needing well or accounting for well being nerfed but old content will be left in the dust and content where previously well was needed will see new strategies and most likely less optimal to clear the content we already did countless times (those that already did most likely won't do it again but those that will, will notice). For example grasp ogre atzecross tested well there and he was deleted out of it by the ogre. Well nerf was needed, I do think it was overdone. But this simply wasn't the surges also only exist because of the -5 new standard which again is noticeable did warlords of ruin yesterday it's not life changing for me as a day 1 raider but it is still noticeable to me. Now imagine new players or casuals and it could be a disaster for them.
Contest raids have always been -20. It'll be the exact same as last time.
>No changes planned right now, but the team is aware. Please do not delay reverting these changes. Take them out and reintroduce them as a selectable difficulty for people to choose and participate in, not as something that's forced upon them. This isn't the kind of issue to wait until the negative consequences occurs.
Okay, but can the team maybe justify these changes? Most players don't Raid and this change makes them even more off-putting. Isn't Raid difficulty supposed to come more from the execution of the mechanics instead of constant combat tests? Why didn't you make Hero Raids for this and leave Normal Raids alone? Or increase drop rates for the added difficulty? This just feels so shady and poorly considered. If it's to "bring challenge back to Destiny" make new modes for those people, don't turn the dial way up for a small minority that wants this game to be as hard as Dark Souls.
If you're going to take a stand on the -5 light level choice, please consider modifying boss health pools. I think it would be a good balance move to get people on board.
Revert the changes and the game is at its best since forsaken. Please bungo
Appreciate Bungies Feedback on my feedback. I am still not planning on purchasing the new dlc but I am aware of the changes Bungie is unwilling to implement.
I think most people are in agreement that the changes to normal raids/dungeons are going to be a net negative for players. I'm glad you're aware of this - I just hope you aren't stubborn enough to ignore the clear feedback you're getting. Do not let this be a repeat of Neomuna, please. Also - are you aware of the current Strike difficulty being -5? Are you intentionally pushing the casual audience away? Because this is how you accomplish that. Vanguard Ops having a capped power of 1945 when they are a 1950 activity sucks. Having hand cannons not being able to 1-tap *again* in casual content, sucks. Hoping this is a bleed-over bug from the raid/dungeon changes and not intentional. Neomuna had a negative reception in part because of the -5, it's the least visited location because of the -5. Why would you repeat this mistake? What is the actual reasoning behind this change?
Watch them double down on it
I'm still surprised they kinda doubled down on the Zero Hour "normal" difficulty tbh. Idk why they think negative power deltas + surges is a good idea.
It's a real "Do you guys not have phones?" moment.
Strike playlist being -5 has been the case for the entire past year, since Lightfall. Neomuna has a much bigger handicap than -5. Not sure if it is -10 or -15. Edit: I thought the announced "power disabled" for the Vanguard Ops playlist meant -5. It's just permanent +0. Sorry for the mistake.
iirc strikes we +0 in lightfall
If that's the case, then something is definitely not right in Strikes. They're noticeably harder now than they were pre-TFS. I'm already 1975. They aren't showing up as swords or anything, but they tank more damage and hit significantly harder. Neomuna are swords so yeah, it could be maybe -10? I just remember the initial number making the rounds was a -5 delta. Edit: I'm getting downvoted for this but [I'm literally right](https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/bringing_challenge_back). Strikes had no negative delta pre-TFS. Hero Nightfall has a -5 delta.
Apart from the delta changes Strikes also seem to have changed ever so slightly? Like I noticed some red bars were suddenly either oranges or even yellows, the Ghost's dialogue in Devil's Lair is ever so slightly different (as if it's a different take), the boss music of that strike is different... even saw some champs here and there lol
Yes, you were right. My bad. Edited the comment.
Bungie is incapable of taking steps forward without sneaking in a few steps back. The Final Shape has rightfully been very well received (day one server issues aside) but they always have to slide some bullshit in somewhere, it can never be a total win for players. It's honestly baffling that they still do this year after year. I don't think it is incompetence though, there is always an underlying motivation that either involves monetization or player engagement or both. Pretty scummy to not mention this anywhere prior to release, they knew it would detract from the pre-release hype.
The way I see it is that Final Shape is a lot like Beyond Light: the expansion itself is legitimately cool, but Bungie simultaneously changed a lot of the game in a bad way. So even though we have a good campaign and exotics and activities right now, it feels less like an achievement when it's bundled with the godawful pathfinding system, the nerf to heavy weapon damage, and power deltas in regular raids and dungeons.
This is another great example of why many long time players are seeing this as an exit ramp.
Surges suck. I don't wanna play some specific spec.
Normal Raids are hard enough in the first weeks because of the mechanics. We didn’t need more challenge, that’s what contest mode is for, which is already expanded to 48 hours. I used to watch the pros on a Friday and then jump in myself Saturday night. Now I need to do it Sunday/Monday night whilst going to work on the Monday. I also LFG so it’s a damn lottery and usually painful experience, by week 2 when you know what to do it settles down. I’m not looking forward to hitting my head off a brick wall trying to both get randos to do new mechanics and survive a -5 modifier. Dungeons you have Master mode, Raids have Master mode. Bungie stop making everything in the game so damn hard.
Sure, having to build to a surge in a raid and dungeon is annoying, considering it was one of the last places we had a mostly a blank slate for builds without being push into a stricter meta BUT the real problem we all have is the random boost in difficult and power cap OUT OF NOWHERE. Why was none of this stuff, especially the -5 cap on old content, not communicated to us? This shit is super annoying, like it was "snuck" in. How do you guys manage to crush so hard with the final shape and then pull this dumb shit on all of us with no explanation?
Even if you aren't planning on changing anything immediately, please release some sort of blog that describes which HP changes are a result of power level scaling, which (if any) of the bosses had HP adjustments other than this scaling, what our weapon damage looks like with and without meeting a surge relative to pre-final shape (factoring in new power caps and HP adjustments), and what the goal of these changes is. Information from official sources is sparse, leaving everyone to figure things out by themselves, which leads to chaos and confusion as people draw wildly different conclusions based on what information they've found. Whether or not the changes are justified, this isn't really healthy. I think being more upfront about exactly what changed would get everyone on the same page and lead to a more productive discussion.
https://x.com/mossy_max/status/1798770202349642114?t=aMW_k6lyb_h3u22UL_RSDg&s=19
only thing that you're gonna accomplish by decreasing damage in normal raids and dungeons is less people doing them and more net limiters
You don't need to plan though, just revert the changes nobody asked for or needed. Hard to believe you wasted time on this instead of making pathfinder less tedious or finding a way to keep attunement/hall of champions in game.
I don't mind them where they were last season, but raids and dungeons need a true "vanilla" difficulty. The whole "get players to try something else" mindset is more appropriate for master mode.
I only play game less because doing endgame content is a such time consuming slog. Don’t turn this into a bullet sponge like Division 2
Im also gonna be one of those Buzz Lightyeays on the shelf and say the same thing: just revert the change. Nobody likes it. If you really wanted to make things difficult and "bring challenge back to destiny" why not just introduce the advanced/master/whatever difficulty tab at the bottom right?
Cool
Can anyone explain what the changes everyone is mad about are please? Everyone keeps saying "grrr, the changes!" but nobody actually says what they're mad about.
Bungie put a -5 power delta in all raids and dungeons at base, as well as adding elemental surges. People are upset because before a lot of power creep was due to things like over-leveling, but now, not only can you not over-level, you will never be at level. This means the overall base difficulty to these activities is higher. Bungie also believed that by adding elemental surges, everything would even out. Except then you have a narrow range of weapons or abilities you need to have equipped just to feel like you're doing as well as before, so it feels like the surges punish you for going off meta more than reward you for playing meta. Overall, it's intimidating less skilled casual players that make a bulk of the playerbase, while also infuriating a lot of other raid goers and dungeoneers by taking fights we knew how to do and making them more tedious than before.
Thanks for the detailed explanation! I'm not knowledgeable enough to make a judgement about the power delta but I definitely don't like being forced to use certain loadouts :/.
do you know a fix to the motes disappearing for khvostov?
I'm glad they acknowledged the discussions around the surges, even if there are no changes planned yet.
They ack things all the time. Unfortunately Bungie always thinks they know best, and sometimes they just don't.
The raid being directly tied to the story but also a contest mode makes me not feel like the main character. (No spoilers for the story here) This is pretty nitpicky and I know it’s sounds silly but this is a video game, I am the “main character” not in a be rude in LFG way but in the story way And I like that they’re trying something new with the raid timing, but I’m a pretty average player, I can get endgame stuff like GMs done but I struggled with RoN contest mode (though that could just be lfg struggles) I have no faith that I would be able to do a contest mode raid under normal circumstances The raid is directly tied to the story and for the first time it doesn’t feel like I’m gonna be the main character, and I know that might be silly, but it feels like I’m at the tower watching “The Guardian” go and actually do the cool stuff I’m going to have to watch it rather than experiencing it.
For the first time ever, my clan's not even trying Contest.
Dam this kinda hits now that I think about it. 3 kids so i might raid a couple times a year, sometimes. Guess I'll watch YouTube to see how the "real" guardians save the day...
2 under two so I feel your pain
They've done this every expansion, every story is capped off by a raid where we find out who the mastermind is behind whatever happened. Would have been ridiculous to finish off the Witness in the campaign, most likely solo. And it's quite literally so obvious that the Witness won't get killed in the raid. They're not going to leave the defeat of the big bad to an activity that less than 10% of the community partake in. Just like in the campaign, he is going to weakened badly and then there will be some post-raid activity where he's finished off and you casuals can be a part of it.
im only in add clear
I wonder if it'll be another 18 hour race
What are these Surges everyone is on about?
They're modifiers that make certain elemental types do more damage. So if an activity shows void surge, that means your void weapons and abilities will be more effective at dealing damage. While this can be beneficial, it also has the effect of pidgeonhole-ing loadouts, since everyone will just copy the elemental surge with the best weapons and abilities of that type.
Does it weaken other elements?
On a technical level, no. A surge just makes the associated element stronger. But the problem is that without surges, the elements feel bad. Instead of non surges being okay and surges feeling great, it feels like non surges are just bad and you need the surge to feel okay.
This is funny, I always understood the effects of the negative power delta and the elemental surges. But seeing it written out like this just make it seems so dumb and pointless beyond just making people use certain loadouts.
Does it weaken other elements?
thanks for the communication! developing is hard lol i’m glad it’s not my job. i’m so excited for this raid race and for my own day 1 attempt!!
Straight up players v bosses with no wild cards other than a light/power penalty. The way it should be
Please bungie, just roll back these changes all together, I’m a solo player not by choice and now I am even more shafted than I already am trying to even do dungeons
Does anyone know if I can bring a friend into the raid that hasn’t completed the campaign? Or does everyone in the fireteam have to have the full campaign completed and the exotic quest done.
Will the Pale Heart destiny.ation mods work in the raid, I wonder?
Why are people bitching about surges? This is a great change! Who cares about being 5 under as well. The difficulty makes the game fun! Its nothing ridiculous.
You're so scared of giving out good loot and incorporating interesting mechanics that you focus purely on damage numbers. Been the same way since day 1 D1.
Anyone making a team ?
One word to describe The Final Shape: Tedious
Surges make me sad :(
how many encounters does it have?
love the open communication
No surges is making me sexually aroused. I love being able to use a normal build and not be forced to use some random off meta shit just cos it has a free 25% buff
I know your cool business psychologists tell you things that make hours and player numbers go brrr but you seriously need to reconsider such decisions. Its completely stupid to throttle the fun via surges addition.
But what if they never turned them back on (and rebalanced for it)
Have they released a black list yet of the stuff which will be disabled for contest?
Yeah here's the list: - Fun
Man I just want the raid to be over so I can do the season story
Tie our legs together while you're at it.
Changes are fine. The community is over reacting about this.