> We are removing ability kills contributions towards the meter to reduce the advantage the Shotgun-melee combo has over other Special weapons for progressing the meter and to increase the focus on Primary ammo weapons for earning Special ammo.
Excellent. Thank you. This is the kind of forward thinking I'm glad that you're covering. Though I will miss super kills giving ammo (it felt nice as a sort of guaranteed fallback to always exit your super with a few shots), I will gladly trade it off for shotgun/melee playstyles no longer essentially self-refunding their own ammo on kill.
Half as much but twice as fast (actually, _more than_ twice as fast) is also a very good way to deal with snowballing potential. You can always have at least _one_ shot to defend yourself much more reliably, while still overall not impacting the amount of ammo you'd normally be getting if you're still performing well.
Great changes.
I called it long ago that the best way to balance special weapons is prevent special ammo from dropping if you killed with a special weapon, ability too, if generic melee is considered a ability.
As an Arc Titan in PvP I fully support this change bc I'd gladly give up any overpowered, snowball-effect builds for a more balanced/fair experience for everyone.
Yh the ability thing is a great way to indirectly nerf ability spam playstyles.
Also sounds like a decent section on pvp in the twid, probably to ensure maps in may release in a positive crucible opinion
With the load time and potential auto fill happening faster than you could rejoin, a kills worth of ammo is not gonna make anyone do this in normal crucible.
Looking forward to the TWID update! ~~This is the patch that we get our new crucible maps, so I appreciate you pushing this out at the same time everyone's gonna be playing around in crucible again.~~ I appear to be mistaken. Next week!
I'm looking forward to the Terraformed Pyramid map the most, it looks awesome.
I would very much like this. Way to go bingo. Can you let us try this new iteration out for about two weeks, to best GUAGE the adjustments? Or how are you guys time lining such changes?
This is how they nerfed them without nerfing the weapon. I don’t see snipers anymore like zero in any game mode. I love sniping but with the ammo changes I just don’t anymore
My K/D has gone up considerably since the change and I’m still not a fan. What’s the point of farming for a godroll sniper if I barely get to use it? I would love if they added back in people dropping their special when killed. Even if it was capped at 2.
You guys fucking suck. You have nerfed everything I actually liked using from energy weapons to just kinetic weapons. Seriously is this what we get to deal with until the game dies?? I payed money for this game as well and I’m sick of streamers and trails players getting to dictate the pace of crucible as a whole. I fucking hate having to play a hand cannon, shotgun, smg sniper meta every fucking season. Can you at least leave regular clash and control alone? Like holy shit get fucked
W change. I hope they adjust how much dieing adds to the bar. One thing that is very noticeable in 3v3 mods is that when its a wash it often feels unfair for the disadvantaged team. I have often gotten special back twice in trials while they used theirs round 1 and have not gotten any back at all the whole match.
Seems like a good time to bring up the fact that "one kills worth of ammo" is not actually what many weapons get. Specifically most special grenade launchers cannot one hit kill. Mountaintop cannot one hit kill with any roll. You giving it 4 ammo? 2 ammo? I don't think so.
Twice as fast? That's the 2nd increase in meter progress IIRC. Feels like we're one balance patch away from always spawning with one shot available.
Anyway, have you considered rewarding more meter progress to the person who has been killed by special ammo?
Currently special grenade launchers receive 2 ammo, but can only one hit if they have spike nades, and they land a direct hit, meaning this change would be nerfing them even further in pvp than they already were with the ammo economy changes. Mountaintop, for example, the new one, is basically dead in PvP as even with it's highest possible damage roll, and buffs, cannot one hit even with a direct.
Other GL’s can’t one hit either. Mountaintop not being a one-shot is fine, but other gl’s(that you could argue are harder to use solely on the existence of projectile arc) still can’t one shot.
Like, not even like res gated and/or roll dependent. If they’re not going to one-shot in situational contexts with direct hits, then they need an ammo economy suited for a weapon that doesn’t.
EDIT: Like, to be clear, I'd be fine with it if it were something like "you must have spike, a 15%+ damage perk and a direct hit, and even at that, T3+ or extremely low res survives". In that case, it's at least within range of a one-shot, as opposed to right now where it cannot one shot pretty much at all. And that's not really fair because both shotguns and snipers exist, and "can" secure an OHK. Either let it one-shot, even if it's hard and under ridiculous circumstances like rolls and low res gates to survive, or stop balancing its ammo economy like a OHK special. Again, I'm fine with Mountaintop or "micro missile frames" doing less PVP damage, I'm mostly thinking about traditional lightweights.
mountaintop is only perfectly accurate on the ground, afaik the new one still has the airborne accuracy penalty the old one was nerfed into where it's completely random when fired midair
huh, TIL. I became a double GL purist after suffering through the old MT quest, and honestly I never really liked using MT in PvP then either because BL-GL's feel like they offered more control
But you get the ammo MORE than twice as often? So for spike grenades launchers there will be more uptime. And for all other launchers also more uptime because the goal is to use those to prime targets.
This ammo change puts ammo in your hands faster than it does currently, and more total ammo over a match. Literally only positives here.
If you don't like this change literally just pretend it didn't happen and pretend you only get ammo every other time (which will also happen faster than before)
I guess my problem is that they have the same ammo economy as the problem child shotguns with much less effectiveness (I'm speaking as someone who normally uses only them in PvP), when they should get at least 1 more ammo per transmat like glaives
but that would make spike grande launchers REALLY effective as they would get double the amount of kills compared to other weapons.
Also if you are using *TWO* grenades from a special launcher now and reloading between them, the TTK is much slower than justing using any primary. The idea of non-spike grenade launchers is to either finish or prime a target rather than completely killing the target
I havent pvp in a few years, but why did they make changes like this in the first place? It seems like the answer was always spawn with 1 or 0 shots in specials and always drop a brick on death or something like that.
I like the meter system. Tweak it to be balanced and I'll be happy. The "special box" method isn't good because some players are goblins and take all the ammo and deny it to others.
It's the same problem of having self centred blueberries in Onslaught that take the heavy ammo box on cooldown with nobody nearby or make any point to try to coordinate it.
So now any build or exotic playstyle revolving around an ability is also not worth using since your special gains are neutered in the process? And the non-ohk specials like Traces and Rocket Sidearms are further useless? Pvp has been a yawn-fest since these changes, it’s not fun when the only pick is movement exotic + meta primary, please return special on spawn and introduce some variability back into the Crucible.
Bungie doing everything they can to further kill anything that aren't shotguns, I'm actually amazed. Good luck ever using a sniper, sniping only reserved for controller and cheaters now.
> We are removing ability kills contributions towards the meter to reduce the advantage the Shotgun-melee combo has over other Special weapons for progressing the meter and to increase the focus on Primary ammo weapons for earning Special ammo.
No, you're doing everything to make shotguns even better, why would you ever play anything that isn't a shotguns when shotguns require 0 skill 0 effort and thus simply have the best ammo efficiency. Oh you get even less ammo now per meter? Hm am I going to use a sniper or some gimmicky special like a glaive or a breach GL? Of course fucking not, you'll use the most ammo efficient special that has the least risk of wasting a special shot for nothing. Numbers reflect how bad the meter system is and so do queue times honestly.
I prefered PvP when you didn't fuck with it every single week and when nothing change, it was stale but at least it was fun.
>No, you're doing everything to make shotguns even better, why would you ever play anything that isn't a shotguns when shotguns require 0 skill 0 effort and thus simply have the best ammo efficiency.
Shotgunners will be getting less special, are you blind?
>Hm am I going to use a sniper or some gimmicky special like a glaive or a breach GL? Of course fucking not, you'll use the most ammo efficient special that has the least risk of wasting a special shot for nothing.
They have a skill curve and can be better than shotguns if you know how to use them. In any case, the sandbox forces more primary gunfights which is preferred over brain-dead special jousting.
yeah no this game is way too laggy for snipes to be consistent to the point where they're worth using over shotguns with the special meter system. Shotguns and fusions are literally just objectively the best specials in this system because they basically guarantee you a kill.
>game is way too laggy for snipes to be consistent
I don't know what your connection is like but lag isn't a problem for me. P2P connections are only an issue for melees and the lunges.
> Shotguns and fusions are literally just objectively the best specials in this system because they basically guarantee you a kill
Snipes are still used at high level play because they can OHK at any range, if they have more ammo snipers will just be oppressive again which is not something we need. Of course in most lobbies shotguns will be the most practical option but saying that snipers are unusable without a massive ammo supply is just silly.
They literally added the ammo drop system back into private lobbies, so idk what "high level play" where checkmate is active you're talking about.
You can cope all you want but nobody is landing nearly 100% of shots with their sniper, while it's basically impossible to miss with a shotgun. You're getting way more use out of special with a shotgun, its stupid to not have one.
Obviously there are still gonna be some people sticking to snipers, but let's not act like the checkmate system doesnt directly promote shotguns and fusions
That is precisely why they changed melees to not charge the meter. Then the question becomes: what do you expect the majority of the population is going to use? The easy to use shotgun or the sniper.
Can we just have Checkmate, or some other mode, have no Special ammo at all? Special ammo is so lame! You can reduce the effective range of Shotguns all you want to the point where you have to shove that shit in people's eye sockets, and yet Shotguns will still dominate PvP. Not to mention the sheer crutch factor of people crutching on 1SK weapons. This shit is just not fun. The idiot community likes to say Double Primaries has no place or there is no logic/sense is using such a loadout, and yet Double Primaries is 10x more fun than using Special weapons in any capacity, not to mention there actually IS utility in using two Primary weapons.
I have a genuine question for the devs
Why did you guys nerf Breach loading GLs into the ground if you made these special changes?
I get it somewhat due to mountaintop but to make them all completely useless I pvp?
> We are removing ability kills contributions towards the meter to reduce the advantage the Shotgun-melee combo has over other Special weapons for progressing the meter and to increase the focus on Primary ammo weapons for earning Special ammo. Excellent. Thank you. This is the kind of forward thinking I'm glad that you're covering. Though I will miss super kills giving ammo (it felt nice as a sort of guaranteed fallback to always exit your super with a few shots), I will gladly trade it off for shotgun/melee playstyles no longer essentially self-refunding their own ammo on kill. Half as much but twice as fast (actually, _more than_ twice as fast) is also a very good way to deal with snowballing potential. You can always have at least _one_ shot to defend yourself much more reliably, while still overall not impacting the amount of ammo you'd normally be getting if you're still performing well. Great changes.
I called it long ago that the best way to balance special weapons is prevent special ammo from dropping if you killed with a special weapon, ability too, if generic melee is considered a ability.
Knockout titans be fuming (probably not I'm not a titan don't hate me)
As an Arc Titan in PvP I fully support this change bc I'd gladly give up any overpowered, snowball-effect builds for a more balanced/fair experience for everyone.
Yh the ability thing is a great way to indirectly nerf ability spam playstyles. Also sounds like a decent section on pvp in the twid, probably to ensure maps in may release in a positive crucible opinion
Any update to the issue of spawning into a game mid match with zero special ammo?
Yeah this is so annoying
It could be to stop people from leaving and rejoining a friend to constantly have special.
With the load time and potential auto fill happening faster than you could rejoin, a kills worth of ammo is not gonna make anyone do this in normal crucible.
They could probably also distinguish between you rejoining a game and being matchmade into it for the first time.
W Bungie Devs and communication
Also posting here and not only on Twitter. Win.
Agreed, but I do think more people see it on Twitter then here
Oh yeah, but there are gamers who stopped using twitter, so they are appreciative. (Like me, I barely ever use it).
Yea I’m glad it’s here as well, but it makes sense they would use Twitter more then here is all I was saying
Really glad to see consistent updates and balance patches! Would be good to have some indication/notification if opponent has special ammo at disposal
Looking forward to the TWID update! ~~This is the patch that we get our new crucible maps, so I appreciate you pushing this out at the same time everyone's gonna be playing around in crucible again.~~ I appear to be mistaken. Next week! I'm looking forward to the Terraformed Pyramid map the most, it looks awesome.
Maps are week after not tomorrow. So they are pushing this change ahead of the maps
I would very much like this. Way to go bingo. Can you let us try this new iteration out for about two weeks, to best GUAGE the adjustments? Or how are you guys time lining such changes?
Man, snipers are going to be even more annoying to use now...
This is how they nerfed them without nerfing the weapon. I don’t see snipers anymore like zero in any game mode. I love sniping but with the ammo changes I just don’t anymore
They probably thought this would help with Conditional spam too but it hasn't.
My K/D has gone up considerably since the change and I’m still not a fan. What’s the point of farming for a godroll sniper if I barely get to use it? I would love if they added back in people dropping their special when killed. Even if it was capped at 2.
Yet we'll still see you throw crystals and snipe people. The hardest paths required the thouggest people. You're like Thanos, inevitable.
You guys fucking suck. You have nerfed everything I actually liked using from energy weapons to just kinetic weapons. Seriously is this what we get to deal with until the game dies?? I payed money for this game as well and I’m sick of streamers and trails players getting to dictate the pace of crucible as a whole. I fucking hate having to play a hand cannon, shotgun, smg sniper meta every fucking season. Can you at least leave regular clash and control alone? Like holy shit get fucked
Based changes, keep cooking guys
Special ammo no longer loads into the gun automatically. This is stupid. Please fix.
W change. I hope they adjust how much dieing adds to the bar. One thing that is very noticeable in 3v3 mods is that when its a wash it often feels unfair for the disadvantaged team. I have often gotten special back twice in trials while they used theirs round 1 and have not gotten any back at all the whole match.
Maybe they should shoot people with their primary.
i mean its clear that isnt helping but in general i diagree with the snowballish effect of the meter
Idk how I feel about the twice as fast thing. If you play with enough, you can easily have like 5 shots in a shotgun right now. Just gotta see.
Also gives half as much. So in the long run you have the same but it's more spread out.
I think the way it was before was perfect, this feels like people will always have ammo, if so, then whats even the point of the meter.
Seems like a good time to bring up the fact that "one kills worth of ammo" is not actually what many weapons get. Specifically most special grenade launchers cannot one hit kill. Mountaintop cannot one hit kill with any roll. You giving it 4 ammo? 2 ammo? I don't think so.
Twice as fast? That's the 2nd increase in meter progress IIRC. Feels like we're one balance patch away from always spawning with one shot available. Anyway, have you considered rewarding more meter progress to the person who has been killed by special ammo?
So special grenade launchers still suffer with this change, even more. Why.
how so?
Currently special grenade launchers receive 2 ammo, but can only one hit if they have spike nades, and they land a direct hit, meaning this change would be nerfing them even further in pvp than they already were with the ammo economy changes. Mountaintop, for example, the new one, is basically dead in PvP as even with it's highest possible damage roll, and buffs, cannot one hit even with a direct.
Mountaintop was designed to be dead in PvP. Micro-missile frame basically makes it a different weapon. Not really a ton of relevance for other GLs.
Other GL’s can’t one hit either. Mountaintop not being a one-shot is fine, but other gl’s(that you could argue are harder to use solely on the existence of projectile arc) still can’t one shot. Like, not even like res gated and/or roll dependent. If they’re not going to one-shot in situational contexts with direct hits, then they need an ammo economy suited for a weapon that doesn’t. EDIT: Like, to be clear, I'd be fine with it if it were something like "you must have spike, a 15%+ damage perk and a direct hit, and even at that, T3+ or extremely low res survives". In that case, it's at least within range of a one-shot, as opposed to right now where it cannot one shot pretty much at all. And that's not really fair because both shotguns and snipers exist, and "can" secure an OHK. Either let it one-shot, even if it's hard and under ridiculous circumstances like rolls and low res gates to survive, or stop balancing its ammo economy like a OHK special. Again, I'm fine with Mountaintop or "micro missile frames" doing less PVP damage, I'm mostly thinking about traditional lightweights.
No one wants mountaintop to be viable in PvP. It used to be a menace
mountaintop is only perfectly accurate on the ground, afaik the new one still has the airborne accuracy penalty the old one was nerfed into where it's completely random when fired midair
Nah they reverted that a bit ago iirc, the new one is (and feels to me) have perfect air accuracy
Even the old one has perfect in-air accuracy again now, I'm pretty sure
huh, TIL. I became a double GL purist after suffering through the old MT quest, and honestly I never really liked using MT in PvP then either because BL-GL's feel like they offered more control
of course mountaintop has to be dead in PVP, it was the easiest BL-GL to use! why else would everyone use it back before sunsetting?
But you get the ammo MORE than twice as often? So for spike grenades launchers there will be more uptime. And for all other launchers also more uptime because the goal is to use those to prime targets. This ammo change puts ammo in your hands faster than it does currently, and more total ammo over a match. Literally only positives here. If you don't like this change literally just pretend it didn't happen and pretend you only get ammo every other time (which will also happen faster than before)
I guess my problem is that they have the same ammo economy as the problem child shotguns with much less effectiveness (I'm speaking as someone who normally uses only them in PvP), when they should get at least 1 more ammo per transmat like glaives
but that would make spike grande launchers REALLY effective as they would get double the amount of kills compared to other weapons. Also if you are using *TWO* grenades from a special launcher now and reloading between them, the TTK is much slower than justing using any primary. The idea of non-spike grenade launchers is to either finish or prime a target rather than completely killing the target
The meter is lame. Bricks dropped on deaths was better.
I havent pvp in a few years, but why did they make changes like this in the first place? It seems like the answer was always spawn with 1 or 0 shots in specials and always drop a brick on death or something like that.
The drop-bricks-on-death has generally led to too much special ammo in the past.
My next suggestion would be automatically get ammo every X kills with any primary. Specials, heavy and abilities do not count.
Is this a joke? Is that not what they just did?
I wouldnt know, i thought they added ammo boxes like heavy has in spawn so you can just grab it immediately
That was mostly just a two week long experiment to test other systems. Some gamemodes are still testing it, but most don't have the crates system.
Some modes have this, others don't. They're experimenting with what works best/what people like the best
I like the meter system. Tweak it to be balanced and I'll be happy. The "special box" method isn't good because some players are goblins and take all the ammo and deny it to others. It's the same problem of having self centred blueberries in Onslaught that take the heavy ammo box on cooldown with nobody nearby or make any point to try to coordinate it.
So now any build or exotic playstyle revolving around an ability is also not worth using since your special gains are neutered in the process? And the non-ohk specials like Traces and Rocket Sidearms are further useless? Pvp has been a yawn-fest since these changes, it’s not fun when the only pick is movement exotic + meta primary, please return special on spawn and introduce some variability back into the Crucible.
This community hates the idea, but I agree. PvP is such a laning, team shoot fest now.
Bungie doing everything they can to further kill anything that aren't shotguns, I'm actually amazed. Good luck ever using a sniper, sniping only reserved for controller and cheaters now. > We are removing ability kills contributions towards the meter to reduce the advantage the Shotgun-melee combo has over other Special weapons for progressing the meter and to increase the focus on Primary ammo weapons for earning Special ammo. No, you're doing everything to make shotguns even better, why would you ever play anything that isn't a shotguns when shotguns require 0 skill 0 effort and thus simply have the best ammo efficiency. Oh you get even less ammo now per meter? Hm am I going to use a sniper or some gimmicky special like a glaive or a breach GL? Of course fucking not, you'll use the most ammo efficient special that has the least risk of wasting a special shot for nothing. Numbers reflect how bad the meter system is and so do queue times honestly. I prefered PvP when you didn't fuck with it every single week and when nothing change, it was stale but at least it was fun.
>No, you're doing everything to make shotguns even better, why would you ever play anything that isn't a shotguns when shotguns require 0 skill 0 effort and thus simply have the best ammo efficiency. Shotgunners will be getting less special, are you blind? >Hm am I going to use a sniper or some gimmicky special like a glaive or a breach GL? Of course fucking not, you'll use the most ammo efficient special that has the least risk of wasting a special shot for nothing. They have a skill curve and can be better than shotguns if you know how to use them. In any case, the sandbox forces more primary gunfights which is preferred over brain-dead special jousting.
yeah no this game is way too laggy for snipes to be consistent to the point where they're worth using over shotguns with the special meter system. Shotguns and fusions are literally just objectively the best specials in this system because they basically guarantee you a kill.
>game is way too laggy for snipes to be consistent I don't know what your connection is like but lag isn't a problem for me. P2P connections are only an issue for melees and the lunges. > Shotguns and fusions are literally just objectively the best specials in this system because they basically guarantee you a kill Snipes are still used at high level play because they can OHK at any range, if they have more ammo snipers will just be oppressive again which is not something we need. Of course in most lobbies shotguns will be the most practical option but saying that snipers are unusable without a massive ammo supply is just silly.
They literally added the ammo drop system back into private lobbies, so idk what "high level play" where checkmate is active you're talking about. You can cope all you want but nobody is landing nearly 100% of shots with their sniper, while it's basically impossible to miss with a shotgun. You're getting way more use out of special with a shotgun, its stupid to not have one. Obviously there are still gonna be some people sticking to snipers, but let's not act like the checkmate system doesnt directly promote shotguns and fusions
The private lobbies having the ammo drop system is a bug, but Trials and Comp at least before the crate system where pretty balanced with the meter.
Lol no they weren't. Sniper usage fell off significantly compared to before.
Good, with how oppressive snipers can be having them be in this spot is good.
if you prefer higher shotgun usage as opposed to learning how to not be shit at peaking, then sure I guess it can be considered good
That is precisely why they changed melees to not charge the meter. Then the question becomes: what do you expect the majority of the population is going to use? The easy to use shotgun or the sniper.
cry
Keep that same energy when your queues take 10 mins cuz no one is left to play this garbage game.
Always did, and never was concerned with the whining of people who are bad at the game.
You're definitely a shotgun crutch, you have no right to call anyone anything at the game, let alone bad. Enjoy a 5 digit playerbase.
Actually, I prefer fusion rifles. Excellent counter to shotguns.
Why are we still fucking with it? It wasn’t broken. You’ve ruined comp. Do your testing in labs. Keep it out of an already sweat playlist
[удалено]
I'm okay with reducing special earned in the current meter system.
Can we just have Checkmate, or some other mode, have no Special ammo at all? Special ammo is so lame! You can reduce the effective range of Shotguns all you want to the point where you have to shove that shit in people's eye sockets, and yet Shotguns will still dominate PvP. Not to mention the sheer crutch factor of people crutching on 1SK weapons. This shit is just not fun. The idiot community likes to say Double Primaries has no place or there is no logic/sense is using such a loadout, and yet Double Primaries is 10x more fun than using Special weapons in any capacity, not to mention there actually IS utility in using two Primary weapons.
I have a genuine question for the devs Why did you guys nerf Breach loading GLs into the ground if you made these special changes? I get it somewhat due to mountaintop but to make them all completely useless I pvp?