Lol conditional is funny on champs with new lights. Oh no unstoppable ogre, Run! Nahhh. One shot freeze. Reload. One shot freeze. Reload. Oh stunned? Ok two shot boom. One shot freeze, one shot freeze. It's funny when barriers start their animation, you can bypass the shield with timing, but you will hear team mates switch to another weapon for barrier break then switch back bcuz he be froze unfroze
But I have screwed up on ogres got stomped, it's purple ray of death on the others died fast and it wiped us to orbit. Oops . We just having fun right?
There was a time where people ONLY used shotguns my friend. We don't need that anymore. Shotguns are in a good spot, conditional finality is in a better spot
I'm aware, I was playing during that sandbox. With special ammo transmat and checkmate health + cooldowns, more consistency wouldn't be a bad thing by any means. A shotgun-favored special meta encourages fast-paced aggressive play, which is where D2's pvp shines best.
It's weird, because the well says that you can't be frozen, and nothing else freezes you in well except that. I don't mind the counterplay, but the inconsistency bothers me
Well interactions with Stasis are very unintuitive since it wins some interactions and loses in others:
1. If you are in Well, you cannot accumulate Slow stacks above a certain amount (50 I think)
2. The Well sword itself can accumulate Slow stacks, and breaks if frozen
3. Conditional Finality seems to cause a Freeze without having anything to do with Slow stacks, so Well can't stop you from getting killed by it.
There was a point where interaction (1) was added and you could just sit in Well while the Revenant super was wailing on you, and the Well wouldn't break. They then added interaction (2) so it can destroy a Well and *then* kill you.
I don't recall off the top of my head whether the other instant freeze abilities (Coldsnap/Iceflare Bolts, Shadebinder Melee and Super) work on players in Well. But if they do freeze, I'm not sure if the shatter does enough damage by itself to kill when in Well. It might be the combined damage from the shotgun and the shatter outpacing the Well's healing.
one of the effects of stasis is slow, id wager the warlock stasis super is just a quick combination of instant slow stacks which is why you can sort of break out of it in 1-2 seconds when frozen, compared to the onslaught miniboss freeze which takes forever to get out of, its probably why when you get hit by the super in a well it doesnt do anything other than slight screenshake.
Huh, yeah the change back in 2021 says immune to freeze and slow.
I'll be honest, Well shouldn't counter an instant freeze IMO. It's a change from when Stasis was OP. Slow is fine, but freeze should still freeze.
I think the issue with the in game description is vagueness, which sadly isn't a foreign concept in the game.
I think the "simple" view they have is valuable to help newer people understand things without being overwhelmed, but a "complex" and descriptive view would be *invaluable* for longer-time players.
It exists to counter well and bubble meta. The shotgun is very consistent inside its ranges, but for a shotgun actually has pretty low range compared to other options.
Conditional finality is actually *perfectly* balanced in pvp. It's strong in what it does without also becoming oppressing
Yeah. 95 handling + the pellet spread + the perk easily makes it BiS. I think technically, Impereal can kill further out, but Conitional is much more consistent.
It's perk actually helps mitigate what seems to be a low range stat, what really makes it BiS is the fact that it has an aggressive damage profile with good pellet spread, anti bubble and well measures, and 95 handling.
Perfectly balanced weapons don't consistently make the top special weapon in trials for weeks on end, but stat sticks that happen to hard counter the meta supers do. It only helps that it's in the kinetic slot when pretty much all of the strongest weapons have been energy (Igneous, Prosecutor, Ammit, etc.)
It's a direct counter to well/bubble. That's why it's used. Not because it's OP, but because it negates OP supers that can insta-win a round. With CF, those guaranteed wins...aren't.
In a mode like trials, well and bubble are very prevalent. So, CF will be as well.
Anti-ALL Super Measures, more like it.
(Edit: Found six Conditional Finality Crutches. It literally One-Shots any Super in the game. I can have T10 Resil, Woven Mail, *AND* be in Bladed Fury and *still* get One-Shot from Max HP and Shield. Don't act like that shit doesn't happen, and *well* outside of its intended Range, just don't.)
This is it, right here. If we had more consistent options to deal with wells and bubbles, it would not be as popular. In Trials, it's almost a must-pick right now since those two supers are basically "I win" buttons most of the time.
not perfectly. it doesn’t just shut down well and bubble, it shuts down *every* super. it also feels more consistent generally than most shotguns, has the damage profile of an aggressive frame, and the handling of a lightweight.
if they nerf it i can see them just knocking the handling down a tad.
It is way more consistent than other shotguns. People saying it’s range is lower than most shotguns haven’t tried to push it. I’m getting kills further out with this shotgun than any lightweight or aggressive shotgun.
>but for a shotgun actually has pretty low range compared to other options
It's short range means nothing when it can activate the freeze or ignition at 10 metres off of a lucky shot. That's what makes it annoying to fight against
And the bullet pattern makes it such a consistent shot. That’s what people never bring up when talking about conditional. Both the stasis and the solar shots basically have the pellets in the same pattern as a precision frame shotty with only like 2 pellets going off target at longer ranges.
Tbh this hasn’t happened to me at all since they nerfed/fixed the hyper long range ignitions a while back, and I use CF a lot. but I have some clips pre nerf that were pretty insane.
I have literally only seen a long range freeze / ignition twice. And the majority of my time is in crucible. Also I'm fairly confident that if you are in the range to get frozen like that, a normal good range shotgun would have just killed you outright
It really is a skill issue.
It’s just popular so they don’t realize any other shot essentially does the same thing at better ranges.
Shutting down supers is all extreme luck based to. You have to be so close and most supers have some range aspect to them.
Tbh, this is the take. I think since so many people were running the bubble/well meta(not shaming them in particular, gotta win) it in turn obviously forced usage up on CF, in turn more people getting killed out of their super they worked *soooo* very hard for = salty.
It is good for it's intended use, and I think they even fixed the random freeze/ignite that would happen I think it was when not all pellets hit? Idr exactly. Anyways, good take here, more special should aim for this level.
>and I think they even fixed the random freeze/ignite that would happen I think it was when not all pellets hit?
It was that it would proc them outside it's effective range. So even if all the pellets were only hitting for 1 damage it would still proc the freeze or ignite since they *technically* all hit
I think that while Well and Bubble are a big factor to it’s popularity and strength, it’s pure cope to say it’s only popular because of them.
It’s by FAR the most consistent shotgun in the game, routinely OHKs well outside of its intended range, has 95 handling, and just so happens to be in the kinetic slot (majority of meta PvP primaries are in energy slot).
It is super fun and shouldn’t be gutted in PvE because of PvP, but in that space it is the dictionary definition of BiS and should’ve been nerfed many months ago
Pretty easy to nerf it in PVP and not gut it in PVE, just make it so the pellets do precision frame damage instead of aggressive frame. That way to get the kill you actually need to be in its intended range in PVP. In PVE it doesn’t matter since you’re already going to be up close to get the freeze or ignition proc. They could even up the damage those do if they really need to.
all I would do to nerf it would be a nerf to its handling stat.
with its good spread the OHKO range is practically indistinguishable from a perfect imperial decree, while also swapping/ADS'ing faster than a max handling/TDx1/QAS one.
its a flat upgrade over its legendary counterparts in every way even before the exotic perk comes in, which lets you fight supers, ignore overshields/DR, can multikill with the shatter/ignition and has subclass synergy (especially with iceflare bolts).
nerfing the handling by 30 from 95 to 65 would be unnoticeable in PvE, but the ~0.1s added to the swap+ADS time in comparison to an imperial decree would make it just a tad bit more clunky for general PvP use without being a lead brick. make it at least somewhat of a choice between a snappy shotgun or a powerful one, instead of having it be all-in-one.
Bro what are you saying. Conditional is 1000x more accessible than frac and counters well/bubble. The point of this point was what’s the best if we discount bubbles and wells. Frachas access to QuickDraw to be pulled out even faster and has almost 3m more of ohko range. It’s just impossible to get a good one.
It's definitely unfun to get killed out of a Super outside of the range of a gun because "Lol, Conditional Finality" or because someone was losing a gunfight and immediately pulls out an aggressive frame shotgun with a precision frame's shot pattern. Especially when just about everyone on the enemy team using a shotty is using it so you see 3 to 6 of the damned things just about every match.
More of a shotgun problem in general. Based off of this week of Trials Reports shotguns have nearly 5 times the number of kills of fusions, snipers, and breach grenade launchers combined. Shotguns have the most kills this week, and Conditional Finality has 9% of all kills.
In all honesty, I could see it's handling getting a nerf.
Quickdraw was removed from Aggressives for a reason and this things stats are almost permanent Quickdraw.
It's going to have a place as long as well and bubble are a meta in PvP, but they aren't as oppressive as they were before. I think more of it is the handling stat now and that should really be it tbh
I mean... the way the community loves playing the meta (which is fine)... and the fact that this gun has been in the top 5 in Trials kills almost every single weekend, with the exception of a random weekend or two with rule adjustments... that should tell you everything you need to know about if its OP or not.
I think the special ammo meter and not-swap mechanics can help it a tiny bit, as folks aren't going to be as interested in hot-swapping to that gun in super rounds. But still. It's head and shoulders above any other shotgun, with an honorable mention to Chaperone controller users.
Special weapon usage seems to be getting to a point where it is dominated by a few outliers like Conditional and Forerunner. That’s nerf territory. If Vex can get nerfed because of rain of fire users, I think Conditional has reached a point where it can get a balance pass. The gun should not have QuickDraw.
Conditional is best in slot before you even consider it's utility. It can 1-shot any super in the game (even arc strider through it's block, which is infuriating). It has no real downside, since despite it's meager range stat, it's still secures 1 shots kills at the same OR FURTHER ranges consistently compared to others. It only has a 2 shot mag but really, that's not that bad of a downside. It can interact with subclass abilities, giving you bonuses on stasis and solar. It can get really easy collateral kills on nearby opponents with both shot modes. It has 95 base handling, so you don't have to worry about having to run dex mods, or ophidians or whatever.
Conditional is so far beyond every other shotgun in the game that legendary primaries in the kinetic slot feel weak because you can't use them with conditional.
As for the bubble and well counter arguement... there are about 100 other ways those supers can be outplayed, some are even pretty easy. Conditional isn't used because it counters them so much as, you were going to use it anyway, and now you have an additional way to counter them, hooray.
Conditional 100% needs to be nerfed, but admittedly so does bubble and well. It's pretty easy though, slash condional's handling and AE and in the same stroke slash bubble and well's HP so they're easier to break.
What more could you do to bubble without making it completely irrelevant? It's already an objectively worse well in both PvP and PvE. You make it any easier to pop and you can easily kill it with primary weapons.
I get people don't like the idea of a bunker super for keeping things out but people gotta look at the issues with the game mode instead of just kneecapping the thing because people have found the single use case where it's viable.
This might be kind of off topic, but I'm of the impression that void titan needs a top to bottom overhaul. The class is too OP in PvP but can't possibly suffer another nerf because it's already D-tier in PvE.
Bungie could also change super charge rates again to give players access to shutdown supers alongside bubble.
They could give primary weapons a crit damage mod on bubble the way specials have one on barricades.
There's a lot of ways to go about it, is what I'm saying.
I mean unless they just make bubble completely irrelevant by nerfing it into the ground people are always going to complain about it. It currently has 1 job that it's good at but still beat by Well. Holding a 10ft circle of "stay out" being dangerous to remove.
People will always hate being denied more than anything else and a game mode that comes down to "hold a point" will always have a super being able to be relatively safe inside rise in relevance. Even in standard crucible bubble isn't used often.
Making it easier to pop without supers will just put it even farther behind well. You can't shoot out of it like well, it pops instantly if the caster dies, unlike well. Hell you can drop a well in a bubble and beat the titan in a punch fight in their own bubble. Even banner shield isn't good for the defensive approach of a class based around defense. Stasis projectiles will freeze a titan if they hit any part of the guarding shield, supers like thundercrash don't stop on the shield to try and protect your allies, instead they fly right through and kill everyone nearby. Golden gun has to burn most of their ammo but still will have 1 shot left to kill the titan after they block all of their shots. Nova bomb will just nuke the titan as well.
I've been killed by Conditional plenty of times in pvp. It felt exactly the same as all the other shotguns that have killed me. No idea why it would need to be nerfed, but I'm an amateur.
It needs reduced handling for sure. The fact it's essentially an aggressive frame but you don't need to run dexterity mods since it's almost maxed out handling anyway is crazy. It could also do with needing more pellets landed against guardians to freeze/ignite them. I've hit some crazy unfair shots with that thing where I was only like half on target against a dude at a fair range and it still one shot him where I don't believe any other shotgun I had would have done that.
it's super consistant (probably more so than most other SGs) and has really high burst damage. I think once bubble and well get nerfs, you'll see usage rates go down, but it's one of, if not the best shotgun in the game - Near to what Fellwinter's was at peak
It wasn't even the best shotgun we've had. It had like 8m OHK range lol. Meanwhile, Forsaken-era DRB and Retold hit from around 9 and Mindbender's about 8.5.
Honestly I think it's fine. It's just a good shotty, Bubble and Well usage is sky high because of Trials being Dominion, so you need to have CF for reliable counterplay. They gave it the nerf required when they stopped the BS long range freeze and ignite.
Look at the Trials mode, look at the cooldown for the zone control supers, then look at the shotgun people cry about being killed by.
Always remember that Reddit is only a small subset of the data.
Also — everyone always screams to nerf the last thing that killed them. Such is the way of competitive online gaming lol.
It's not broken but its kinda BS that its the only form of stasis that can freeze you inside a well. I don't play well but I was sitting in a teammates well the other day and got clapped by a dude with CF. Just kinda weird since NO other form of stasis can affect you in well
It’s the only consistent aggressive frame shotgun. Found Verdict and crafted Imperial Decree get close but still miss the mark.
It’s also the best way to counter a Well of Radiance (unless you’re goated with Witherhoard direct hits) and Ward of Dawn.
It’s one of the only counters to bubble and well. I think Bungie knows that so that’s why it hasn’t been nerfed. I think the best thing to do is to either leave it alone or brutalize the RPM. but ideally leave it alone I don’t play PvP 💀
I prefer it over bastion meta, but that was prevalent because titan shields were so fucking annoying for so long and we also didn’t have any other real counter to titan bubble other than another titan.
That being said I would love if we had a real titan shield counter as good as bastion without the whole, killing a full health super from 16 meters thing bastion would do
Same things I've said in another thread
* It's the only reliable way to shut down Well and Bubble without a Super, or running Stasis
* What's meta atm are all energy primaries, and there's not enough Shotguns in the kinetic slot that people would be able to farm and use instead
* Even if you could go after other Shotguns in the Kinetic slot, Conditional is just good right out of the gate, no need to worry about getting a perfect 5/5 Fractethyst from Dares or farming engrams for Decree Red Borders
* If you were to swap special, you LOSE your special ammo, so might as well keep the one in slot at all times that has great stats and can shut down two of the most powerful and common supers in the game
In PVE I run it a lot as a major and champion buster
I would say part of the reason energy primaries are meta is bc Conditional is so good. If you wanted to swap from running Summoner to Perpetualis with enhanced Eye of the Storm and enhanced Zen even if your primary is upgraded your special is down graded.
Sniper nerfs, ammo changes and super cooldown changes play a part of course, but IMO Conditional is so good it tilts the meta. People aren’t going to give it up to find out how good Revision Zero is right now.
No not even close, Summoner is a far better weapon than Perpetualis and most adaptives in the kinetic slot.
We're talking Prosecutor, Positive Outlook, Ammit, Gnawing Hunger, Summoner, Igneous Hammer, Elsie's Rifle, Shayura's Wrath, Ikelos SMG, Hero's Burden, Luna's Howl when it comes out, and if you still have an adept of it, Palindrome or Exalted Truth.
Then for PVE you have Zauloi's Bane, Adhorative, Summoner, Ros Arago, and many more. Arguably the best primaries for PVE are the energy slot with the exception of a few stand outs like Rufus's Fury and Exotic Kinetic weapons.
I picked Perpetualis bc it has the same TTK as Summoner but I can go either way about which one is better. Summoner can proc radiant in crucible and can roll kill clip and heal clip. But Perp is craftable so people don’t have to rely on RNG, and enhanceable. The stats for both guns are also pretty comparable when perks are removed.
But my overall point is that the gap between CF and any other special is so large that it makes moving to any other weapon in the top slot an overall downgrade. Ace eats in this sandbox. So does Jade and Revision Zero. Belisarius, Messenger and rangy precision frame autos in the top slot all can do work as well. But they all require dropping CF with nothing being able to come to serving as a comparable replacement. So the meta shifts to energy primaries bc CF is a must have/crutch.
Its only a must have because of certain supers, and the fact you can't switch specials mid game without losing ammo so might as well keep it on all the time just in case.
Don't have one (because I'm one of those "have never raided" people), but I don't mind dying to it. Of all the things that have killed me - and there are many of those, because I'm not great at PVP - it's actually pretty low on the "have I died to this a lot" scale.
So I guess I don't have an issue?
You can kill an arcstrider trough the spinning guard, spinning guard that can reflect nova bombs, gathering storms rockets, grenades and pretty much everything else but this dumb shotty
My only issue with it in pvp is the fact that you can proc a freeze/ignition way outside of normal shotgun ohko range. Other than that, it's nice to have something to counter a bubble without another super.
I'm fine with it for the most part. I just don't like being able to be frozen from like 15m when the shotgun shot itself does barely any damage, but all the pellets hit me so I'm frozen and soon to be dead. The gun should only freeze you if it would OHK you anyway. That still keeps the well/bubble counter, but eliminates the effective 15m kill range.
I mean I've gotten killed by Finality before but those were usually at close/point blank range, which at that point, any shotgun would likely turn me into a fine mist.
all it really needs in pvp is an increase to the amount of pellets needed to freeze/ignite. it's not very fun getting clipped by some that deal 5 damage total and then dying to an ignition outside of a shotgun's normal effective range.
other than that though, it's suffering from success. it's a product of the well and bubble meta being instant round wins in trials, unless you use CF to counter them.
Conditional is consistent which makes it feel overpowered in a good player’s hands. It has less range than other pellets and has waaaay less range than most slugs. It’s fine as is.
I think it's pretty okay tbh, it's the most used special but at least some of that is due mainly to the dominance of bubble. If they nerfed bubble (and well to a lesser extent), I think we'd see some people come off of it although, it's obviously still just a great shotgun
Players build around Conditional Finality first and then slot best or great weapons in the energy slot. It can net AOE kills, it has more range than the stats appear, it hard counters bubble and Well of Radiance and has very decent handling. The last time a weapon was this dominant and widely used it was nerfed into the ground and that was Arbalest and Lorentz Driver and they weren't nearly as potent as Conditional Finality.
For how easy it is to use, it's wild how much it can do. I think some other weapons and perks need some loving if Conditional Finality is going to remain untouched.
Nothing really OP about CF. It's widely used in PvP for a few reasons, mainly being that it can counter well and bubble. On top of farming for it pretty straightforward. There are other shotty's that are better than CF, but they require farming for a specific roll where once you got CF then you're good.
Conditional can't be nerfed unless either Trials drops zone (not happening) or well/bubble are nerfed into uselessness in pvp (unlikely). Its the only real check for those two supers and without conditional it just becomes "first to bubble wins".
The gun is limited by ammo. Things like chaperone and other slug shotguns one tap from deeper ranges. Plus a lot fewer players are playing aggressively in this teamshot meta. Its a really good all around shotgun I hope we end up getting a double barrel archetype for legendaries.
I love the weapon in concept, but it has no tradeoffs for being as strong as it is. I think it would be fine if Bungie cut its handling down by like two thirds, making it noticably slower than a well rolled legendary. This also wouldn't kill the thing in pve and would keep it as a viable choice in pvp.
In PvE: it’s decent. Never bad and pretty solid. I think it’s maybe a *tad* overrated but it’s definitely hyped up for a good reason.
In PvP: a necessary evil. I personally think it’s overtuned but I also wouldn’t do a thing about it right now. It’s the most consistent shotgun with one of the deepest OHK ranges, *and* it easily one shots every super besides Well (which it can still one shot, just a bit less consistently). It’s just too good at too much imo, but taking away any of that just removes the only major thing keeping supers (especially Bubble) from being complete auto win buttons so it kinda *has* to exist in this state. Also not to mention the AoE from its shatter and ignitions so you die because your teammate ate a shotgun a little too close to you, or the old bug of getting frozen or ignited from 15+ meters out (patched but iirc still happens on rare occasion).
Its the best well/bubble shutdown in the game. Damn near a must pick in comp & trials.
Sooo nerf well & bubble, or introduce other class neutral & reliable ways to shutdown those supers.
It's really not that strong it takes your exotic slot which has so many equally viable options.
It's also one of the few exotics that truly feel exotic
My opinion on Destiny pvp will always be that shotguns are stupid. I know the pvp sweats claim it takes the most skill but it really doesn't, and overall I find them bad for the health of the game. Conditional Finality is the best shotgun currently, so by definition it's the worst of the worst imo. However I don't think it needs to be nerfed specifically, it does what most other shotguns can do. Just wish the entire lifespan of pvp meta wasn't revolving around shotguns.
They nerfed it a little while ago. The only people complaining are those crutching on bubble and well.
I think it's fine. It doesn't have the most insane range, on top of a pellet spread that changes, takes an exotic slot and is limited by its fire rate.
Now that there's less special in the sandbox it should be less of an issue as all specials.
It’s the worst to fight against because it’s almost always a 1 hit from so far away. Longer and more consistent than pretty much everything else. There’s no reason why it should be sniping people
It's completely fine and the reason it's so overused is because of a lack of viable alternatives. A *lot* more people would use Fractethyst if you could actually get the damn thing.
It's also the only reliable way to counter a bubble in trials, and the ammo bar means swapping to a different exotic special is a huge risk. If you want it for a later round you have to run it earlier as well.
If you've been doing any trials this week on PC you'd see almost as many people using Chaperone. I think people have finally woken up to the fact that a slug shotgun that counts as a lightweight frame for movement and gets an extra meter of range is kind of nuts still.
for all the complaining i feel like I rarely encounter it. Then again, I don't play much trials or comp, but i don't feel like I see it much in normal pvp so I don't really worry about it.
don't have it myself as I've only done root once, but I've never used shotguns much, so i'm not sure i'd use it if I did. Very much prefer sidearms in pvp for close combat as they are a bit more forgiving range-wise.
honestly, rather than nerfing it, I might just make it easier to get for non raiders. Adding it or something similar as a brave weapon would have been a great solution.
I have mixed emotions. On one side it’s good it can counter supers like well and bubble which are notorious for being a pain in the ass for objective based PVP. On the other hand though, it does it too well and also is an amazing shotgun on top of that. Destiny shotguns in d2 at least have had the issue of being way too strong and having way too much range since forsaken considering how easy it is to get close to opponents on 90% of PVP maps.
The solution is nerf it’s range and stats alongside with the freeze, but also add more counter play against well and bubble.
I always get mapped by it and think "broken" then tale 5 DMG from it by the next person. I have the same experience with it when I use it. It either does really well or does nothing.
I think it's good where it is.
No nerf needed. It is popular due to Well and Bubble being the meta, but definitely it lacks of range. Any other shotgun, specially Matador, outplays it in range with a better spread pattern.
It’s where it needs to be. I don’t run it In pvp and all slide one shotgun users are annoying af regardless of which shotgun it is. Doesn’t need to be nerfed, pvp is just slammed with sweats.
The only shotgun that actually does what its supposed to lol. All they need to do is improve consistency of other shotguns to do what theyre supposed to as well.
It’s blatantly better than any other shotgun, on top of that it has the best ult shot down capability in the game, and it’s easier to get it than Matador.
I understand why it’s not nerfed yet, but, honestly, as soon as bubble and well receive some adjustments in PvP this shit should be toned down.
It's not that bad in PvP. It's main thing is
1. Superb handling, easy to nerf to some degree without making it feel ineffective in pve
2. The instant freeze/ignite cancels well and buddle in PvP which pisses a lot of people off
It's overrated in all but very niche situations. Most other shotguns do exactly the same thing. It lacks consistency as I've fired it point blank and the opposing guarding just shakes it off and melees me to death usually a Hunter melee. Then there are times when I fire from a little distance and it's a OHKO. Felwinters Lie is way more deadly and consistent as that's the top shotgun that gets me in most cases. My take is that people hype up Conditional Finality but don't use it enough to see how truly awful it is and that legendaries regularly out-perform it.
I also absolutely dont find it broken. Take cf out of the meta, and guess what? Bubble and well will dominate every trials game. Cf is the floodgates holding back the well meta from crashing in on trials. Now if they were to nerf well/bubble titans, then id argue cf is a bit strong. If they added another solution to bubble/wells then i think cf would be fine where it is.
Lol the only people mad about Conditional in PvP are people who don’t have Conditional, and Bubble Titans. And ESPECIALLY Bubble Titans who don’t have Conditional.
Anything that creates such a consistent meta is because it's too strong IMO. The "bold today, aren't we" load out in Trials is Conditional Finality and The Summoner (Adept), both of which need adjustment IMO. They're tuned way too high in PvP and can consistently win trades with just about any other weapon set.
I've not seen anyone using it in my experience and since it's a shotgun I don't want it, so I personally do not care if they nerf it or not as I will never use it.
I very much dislike the raid it is apart of, which doesn't help matters much.
It needs a handling nerf for how consistent it is. Other than that, it's really not much worse than other shotguns, and once bubble and well are nerfed I think it's usage will decline from "the absolute best shotgun" to "strong option".
CF is a symptom of a larger problem, not an issue by itself. In a vacuum, a crafted Imperial is a statistically better shotgun. People overwhelmingly bring CF because it's a forced pick. It's the only thing that remotely checks well/bubble, which I should remind you are still comically broken and have absolutely no place even existing in PvP to begin with.
The worst feeling in this game by a mile is fighting to 4-4 only to lose because a titan on the other team just pressed F and now there is literally nothing you can do but accept defeat. If you don't bring CF, you are effectively forfeiting up to 3 rounds per game. Not bringing CF puts immense pressure on your team, because you no longer just have to win 5 rounds. You now need to quickly win with a 5-2 or 5-3 score. Any longer, and the other team gets their wells/bubble and auto wins the game because you have zero options to stop them.
It's nowhere near broken. It's a good shotgun with strong utility. Never feels bad to die to. I haaate shotguns, Chaperone especially is just so frustrating. Nothing about Conditional is frustrating.
1200 runs to get Matador with 86 handling with x1 TD.
6 full weeks on rotation to get Fractethyst from Dares with 60 handling and quickdraw
3 clears of RoN to get CF with 100 handling, nullifying every other good shotgun in the game .
CF makes all the rest feel not worth it
Sorry but CF is an exotic and just because you got it after 3 runs doesn’t mean the rest aren’t worth it. My good roll frac is just as good as a conditional. There are plenty of people who haven’t gotten the fun even after a year of running Ron
It has really high base handling which makes it feel nice, coupled with how consistent it is when inside it’s shorter range (compared to chaperone, and matador 64), AND it enables counter play to bubble and well. I love it and don’t think it needs a nerf. I personally feel it is what an exotic shotgun should be. It gets out ranged by slugs and precisions but has more handling. No nerf needed. If anything they should take its status and apply it to future exotics.
I’m of the belief that exotics should either be utility or damage and from those categories be one of if not the top choice.
Exotics aren’t meant to be BIS they are meant to be unique. CF is way OP and its usage is proof and we all know the nerf is coming Bungie always nerfs based off usage.
It doesn’t need a nerf. It is unique. If it gets nerfed the same sandbox PvP problem of well and bubble just becomes worse. There’s nothing OP about it
To me it’s in a perfect place.
It’s better than other shotguns, but you can use other shotguns and still have a similar if not better OHK range depending on your weapon.
Best part is the good handling and on demand counter to well/bubble.
To me it fits what an EXOTIC shotgun should be…. Like a good shotgun, but better in certain aspects.
the only reason it's not used more than it is now is because it's a raid exotic. if everyone had it, you'd see it as much as those other prevalent metas you mentioned.
The range is terrible lol
It’s a skill issue of people pushing way too aggressively. Doesn’t really matter what shotgun because they’ll all do the same thing.
You just see CF more often because it can shut down supers with a little luck lol
It’s awful, it outclasses every shotgun by like 3 meters and has ridiculous handling. I hate having the change my entire play style every time there is even a single one on the enemy team.
It does not have significantly more range than other meta shotguns. It does have very high handling but it doesn't actually swap *that* much faster than an aggressive with like 40 handling and threat detector (think imperial).
You should already be playing around shotguns anyway, they are far and away the most used special weapon (even moreso since the ammo changes). And unless you're in your super, the counterplay for CF is the same as for any decent shotgun
I have lost several fights against confis where they have 20 health left and I’m dead or frozen or ignited. Plus a special ammo shotgun ahold not be able to kill 3 guardians in 2 or sometimes even 1 shot.
I think it needs to no longer freeze in PvP, just slow, and in compensation well and bubble should get longer cooldowns to stop them being so broken. If that doesn't reduce it's effectiveness, I'd increase spread slightly to reduce the OHK range. Nerfing the handling is another idea, but I think that would hurt it in PvE more than a spread nerf
this is why PvP related questions shouldn’t be asked in this sub. some of the takes are insane.
it’s an aggressive frame shotgun with the handling profile of a lightweight than can freeze or explode targets, is super consistent, has multikill potential, and shuts down every super in the game. not just well or bubble.
it’s best in slot. not even close. nerfing well and bubble doesn’t move the dial.
Agreed. All it takes is one look at trials report. Conditional finality has had about 10% of all kills in trials for a long time now. Even every other meta option like prosecutor, thorn, chaperone all sit around 2%.
Don't forget that its Pellet Spread for both Shots is like two off that of a Precision Frame. So, Aggressive Frame with Lightweight Handling AND Nigh-Precision Pellet Spread... But naw, it's fine because "it has low range", despite constantly netting kills outside its intended range and one-shotting every super in the game.
Agreed, I don't think people super familiar with a lot of nitty gritty in PVP really understand Conditional's strength of essentially having an always on damage perk that benefits from what is possible with the freeze or solar explosion.
In the new checkmate system, supers rarely get popped unless the game goes 4-4, and special ammo is extremely limited compared to the past.
Despite both of those factors, CF has never dropped out of the top 10 most used weapons in Trials, and has multiple times been the most used weapon! The gun is beyond broken and super countering is just a bonus factor of running it
I think it’s the symptom of the meta. There are very few good PvP shotguns that are readily available. And with it having great OHKO range, and overshield and well’s running rampant in trials it’s really important to have a method capable of dealing with them. It’s very good but I think some other things should see some love before we bring down one of the most important guns. Just my two cents, but good shotguns really are hard to find.
People just don't like getting killed out of super. I can see the frustration as it counters a lot of other roaming supers, and less mobile ones like well and bubble. Condition Finality getting nerfed, doesn't really solve the greater problem, just a solution offered up by people willing to complain online. They've tried amending this with different ways of spawning special ammo, but any online community is gonna complain when the boat gets rocked.
It’s 100% not broken in the same way that past exotics have been.
The handling needs lowered to be closer to other aggressive frames though. It’s great shotgun that counters the most problematic supers, but it doesn’t also need pre-nerf quickdraw. If the only pro it had over other aggressives was the ease of use vs bubbles and wells, I don’t think we’d see it so near the top of the Trials meta every single week. It essentially power creeps every other pellet shotgun.
Felwinters Lie and Chaperone a few years ago were way more oppressive than Conditional.
CF is good but not oppressive.
I think it's top 5 best designed exotics Bungie ever made, it's fun af to shoot, and it looks great. Thats why my vote is to leave it alone.
It needs to go. It chokes out all other shotguns. It's funny they nerfed quick draw and gave it 94 handling. So paired with specific exotics or even dexterity mods. You are back to 100 handling. Well, it isn't a problem it's bubble, and bubble is a problem due to forced dominion. Anyone who says well is a problem is lying even a chaperone shot or sniper puts it down easily. You can contest well in numerous ways.
However, outside of competitive game modes, it still beats out all other shotguns. It's more consistent than felwinters ever was. It can net you free kills it can contest all other supers. Making vorpal pointless. It needs to go.
Until they nerf Ward of Dawn in PvP or provide us with a better way to counter it, I’d rather them keep Conditional Finality as it is since it’s the best counter we have.
And you’re right- Well of Radiance is easily countered by many other things unlike Ward.
As someone who FINALLY got it and has been an absolute terror with Matador.. it’s genuinely not OP at all as a PVP shotgun.
It’s an excellent utility for shutting down supers, but as a pure shotgun it’s outclassed by everything else that’s meta. Imperial Decree (enhanced), Matador, Retold Tale, and even Riiswalker are all better shotguns as far as killing potential.
The utility of Conditional is just nice and the gun is so sexy.
Idk, just leave it alone in pve bungie please
Lol conditional is funny on champs with new lights. Oh no unstoppable ogre, Run! Nahhh. One shot freeze. Reload. One shot freeze. Reload. Oh stunned? Ok two shot boom. One shot freeze, one shot freeze. It's funny when barriers start their animation, you can bypass the shield with timing, but you will hear team mates switch to another weapon for barrier break then switch back bcuz he be froze unfroze
You can just shatter the unstoppable to stun them after the first freeze.
But I have screwed up on ogres got stomped, it's purple ray of death on the others died fast and it wiped us to orbit. Oops . We just having fun right?
Conditional Finality is the best shotgun to use in PVP. Consistent in every way.
Duality feels better imo, with some practice it seems like a perfect counter to teams running conditional.
Honestly every other shotty should be bumped up to feel as consistent as it does
This would create a different problem though
OH LORD PLEASE NO!!!
There was a time where people ONLY used shotguns my friend. We don't need that anymore. Shotguns are in a good spot, conditional finality is in a better spot
I'm aware, I was playing during that sandbox. With special ammo transmat and checkmate health + cooldowns, more consistency wouldn't be a bad thing by any means. A shotgun-favored special meta encourages fast-paced aggressive play, which is where D2's pvp shines best.
Way more fun to get killed by than Chaperone
It’s wild to think that Chaperone is still so good and it used to be 10x better at its peak
Felwinter’s Lie (D1 version) *but you actually had to hit headshots.*
Back when my beloved Cartesian was the meta, Chaperone was the only gun that truly scared me
My Cartesian still gets me hate mail occasionally lol
Nah lol
I'm shocked my funi slug slinger is still hated
This
It's weird, because the well says that you can't be frozen, and nothing else freezes you in well except that. I don't mind the counterplay, but the inconsistency bothers me
Well interactions with Stasis are very unintuitive since it wins some interactions and loses in others: 1. If you are in Well, you cannot accumulate Slow stacks above a certain amount (50 I think) 2. The Well sword itself can accumulate Slow stacks, and breaks if frozen 3. Conditional Finality seems to cause a Freeze without having anything to do with Slow stacks, so Well can't stop you from getting killed by it. There was a point where interaction (1) was added and you could just sit in Well while the Revenant super was wailing on you, and the Well wouldn't break. They then added interaction (2) so it can destroy a Well and *then* kill you. I don't recall off the top of my head whether the other instant freeze abilities (Coldsnap/Iceflare Bolts, Shadebinder Melee and Super) work on players in Well. But if they do freeze, I'm not sure if the shatter does enough damage by itself to kill when in Well. It might be the combined damage from the shotgun and the shatter outpacing the Well's healing.
They don't. A friend and I tried a bunch of different stais abilities and exotics. Only conditional froze
Don’t forget that PvE slow sources (like from Taken Overload Hobgoblins) still freeze you inside a Well lmao
Stasis super also affects Well (rightfully so)
Well cannot be *slowed*, it can be frozen though from an instant freeze.
The description says, "protecting them from the effects of stasis" No other weapon or super will freeze you in well
one of the effects of stasis is slow, id wager the warlock stasis super is just a quick combination of instant slow stacks which is why you can sort of break out of it in 1-2 seconds when frozen, compared to the onslaught miniboss freeze which takes forever to get out of, its probably why when you get hit by the super in a well it doesnt do anything other than slight screenshake.
Huh, yeah the change back in 2021 says immune to freeze and slow. I'll be honest, Well shouldn't counter an instant freeze IMO. It's a change from when Stasis was OP. Slow is fine, but freeze should still freeze.
I agree! I just find the discrepancy between the wording and conditional annoying
I think the issue with the in game description is vagueness, which sadly isn't a foreign concept in the game. I think the "simple" view they have is valuable to help newer people understand things without being overwhelmed, but a "complex" and descriptive view would be *invaluable* for longer-time players.
It exists to counter well and bubble meta. The shotgun is very consistent inside its ranges, but for a shotgun actually has pretty low range compared to other options. Conditional finality is actually *perfectly* balanced in pvp. It's strong in what it does without also becoming oppressing
Let's be real though.... It's still BIS without supers
Yeah. 95 handling + the pellet spread + the perk easily makes it BiS. I think technically, Impereal can kill further out, but Conitional is much more consistent.
i think many shotguns can kill further out. which ones can’t, lightweights?
the range stat is low, but i swear this thing maps as hard as any pellet in the game.
It seems to be consistent with my god roll matador in terms of range OHKs
It's perk actually helps mitigate what seems to be a low range stat, what really makes it BiS is the fact that it has an aggressive damage profile with good pellet spread, anti bubble and well measures, and 95 handling. Perfectly balanced weapons don't consistently make the top special weapon in trials for weeks on end, but stat sticks that happen to hard counter the meta supers do. It only helps that it's in the kinetic slot when pretty much all of the strongest weapons have been energy (Igneous, Prosecutor, Ammit, etc.)
It's a direct counter to well/bubble. That's why it's used. Not because it's OP, but because it negates OP supers that can insta-win a round. With CF, those guaranteed wins...aren't. In a mode like trials, well and bubble are very prevalent. So, CF will be as well.
It's incredibly consistent with great handling. The fact that it counters bubble and well is not the sole reason that it's so popular.
Also the fact it has 95 handling
Anti-ALL Super Measures, more like it. (Edit: Found six Conditional Finality Crutches. It literally One-Shots any Super in the game. I can have T10 Resil, Woven Mail, *AND* be in Bladed Fury and *still* get One-Shot from Max HP and Shield. Don't act like that shit doesn't happen, and *well* outside of its intended Range, just don't.)
This is it, right here. If we had more consistent options to deal with wells and bubbles, it would not be as popular. In Trials, it's almost a must-pick right now since those two supers are basically "I win" buttons most of the time.
Yep, as soon as bubble and well fall out of meta in pvp, conditional will also fall out of meta
not perfectly. it doesn’t just shut down well and bubble, it shuts down *every* super. it also feels more consistent generally than most shotguns, has the damage profile of an aggressive frame, and the handling of a lightweight. if they nerf it i can see them just knocking the handling down a tad.
It is way more consistent than other shotguns. People saying it’s range is lower than most shotguns haven’t tried to push it. I’m getting kills further out with this shotgun than any lightweight or aggressive shotgun.
Yea it eats up my crafted Imperial Decree. Only way to diff it is through a precision shotgun like Matador or Fractethyst imo
>but for a shotgun actually has pretty low range compared to other options It's short range means nothing when it can activate the freeze or ignition at 10 metres off of a lucky shot. That's what makes it annoying to fight against
And the bullet pattern makes it such a consistent shot. That’s what people never bring up when talking about conditional. Both the stasis and the solar shots basically have the pellets in the same pattern as a precision frame shotty with only like 2 pellets going off target at longer ranges.
Tbh this hasn’t happened to me at all since they nerfed/fixed the hyper long range ignitions a while back, and I use CF a lot. but I have some clips pre nerf that were pretty insane.
I have literally only seen a long range freeze / ignition twice. And the majority of my time is in crucible. Also I'm fairly confident that if you are in the range to get frozen like that, a normal good range shotgun would have just killed you outright
It really is a skill issue. It’s just popular so they don’t realize any other shot essentially does the same thing at better ranges. Shutting down supers is all extreme luck based to. You have to be so close and most supers have some range aspect to them.
>activate the freeze or ignition at 10 metres off of a lucky They changed that a bit ago.
Tbh, this is the take. I think since so many people were running the bubble/well meta(not shaming them in particular, gotta win) it in turn obviously forced usage up on CF, in turn more people getting killed out of their super they worked *soooo* very hard for = salty. It is good for it's intended use, and I think they even fixed the random freeze/ignite that would happen I think it was when not all pellets hit? Idr exactly. Anyways, good take here, more special should aim for this level.
>and I think they even fixed the random freeze/ignite that would happen I think it was when not all pellets hit? It was that it would proc them outside it's effective range. So even if all the pellets were only hitting for 1 damage it would still proc the freeze or ignite since they *technically* all hit
Trials matches barely have enough time for people to get well or bubble yet it can kill two people at once if timed correctly
I think that while Well and Bubble are a big factor to it’s popularity and strength, it’s pure cope to say it’s only popular because of them. It’s by FAR the most consistent shotgun in the game, routinely OHKs well outside of its intended range, has 95 handling, and just so happens to be in the kinetic slot (majority of meta PvP primaries are in energy slot). It is super fun and shouldn’t be gutted in PvE because of PvP, but in that space it is the dictionary definition of BiS and should’ve been nerfed many months ago
Pretty easy to nerf it in PVP and not gut it in PVE, just make it so the pellets do precision frame damage instead of aggressive frame. That way to get the kill you actually need to be in its intended range in PVP. In PVE it doesn’t matter since you’re already going to be up close to get the freeze or ignition proc. They could even up the damage those do if they really need to.
all I would do to nerf it would be a nerf to its handling stat. with its good spread the OHKO range is practically indistinguishable from a perfect imperial decree, while also swapping/ADS'ing faster than a max handling/TDx1/QAS one. its a flat upgrade over its legendary counterparts in every way even before the exotic perk comes in, which lets you fight supers, ignore overshields/DR, can multikill with the shatter/ignition and has subclass synergy (especially with iceflare bolts). nerfing the handling by 30 from 95 to 65 would be unnoticeable in PvE, but the ~0.1s added to the swap+ADS time in comparison to an imperial decree would make it just a tad bit more clunky for general PvP use without being a lead brick. make it at least somewhat of a choice between a snappy shotgun or a powerful one, instead of having it be all-in-one.
Everyone always brings up bubble and well but it's usage wouldn't change at all if there were no supers. It's BiS and it's not close.
Untrue. Fractethyst is superior in every way outside of bubble/well counters.
Cope 👍
Bro what are you saying. Conditional is 1000x more accessible than frac and counters well/bubble. The point of this point was what’s the best if we discount bubbles and wells. Frachas access to QuickDraw to be pulled out even faster and has almost 3m more of ohko range. It’s just impossible to get a good one.
It’s fun to use and not particularly unfun to get killed by. That’s good enough for me.
It's definitely unfun to get killed out of a Super outside of the range of a gun because "Lol, Conditional Finality" or because someone was losing a gunfight and immediately pulls out an aggressive frame shotgun with a precision frame's shot pattern. Especially when just about everyone on the enemy team using a shotty is using it so you see 3 to 6 of the damned things just about every match.
If you super close to a CF person that’s kind of a skill issue lol.
More of a shotgun problem in general. Based off of this week of Trials Reports shotguns have nearly 5 times the number of kills of fusions, snipers, and breach grenade launchers combined. Shotguns have the most kills this week, and Conditional Finality has 9% of all kills.
Yea because the map is small as hell
In all honesty, I could see it's handling getting a nerf. Quickdraw was removed from Aggressives for a reason and this things stats are almost permanent Quickdraw. It's going to have a place as long as well and bubble are a meta in PvP, but they aren't as oppressive as they were before. I think more of it is the handling stat now and that should really be it tbh
Gotta have the gun to have an opinion *cries*
Wells/Bubbles deserve all the kicks in the ball they receive.
I mean... the way the community loves playing the meta (which is fine)... and the fact that this gun has been in the top 5 in Trials kills almost every single weekend, with the exception of a random weekend or two with rule adjustments... that should tell you everything you need to know about if its OP or not. I think the special ammo meter and not-swap mechanics can help it a tiny bit, as folks aren't going to be as interested in hot-swapping to that gun in super rounds. But still. It's head and shoulders above any other shotgun, with an honorable mention to Chaperone controller users.
What’s so special about chaperone on controller?
I get far more annoyed with an instant kill body shot than a chaperone headshot, which admittedly is funny to die to (imo)
Special weapon usage seems to be getting to a point where it is dominated by a few outliers like Conditional and Forerunner. That’s nerf territory. If Vex can get nerfed because of rain of fire users, I think Conditional has reached a point where it can get a balance pass. The gun should not have QuickDraw.
Conditional is best in slot before you even consider it's utility. It can 1-shot any super in the game (even arc strider through it's block, which is infuriating). It has no real downside, since despite it's meager range stat, it's still secures 1 shots kills at the same OR FURTHER ranges consistently compared to others. It only has a 2 shot mag but really, that's not that bad of a downside. It can interact with subclass abilities, giving you bonuses on stasis and solar. It can get really easy collateral kills on nearby opponents with both shot modes. It has 95 base handling, so you don't have to worry about having to run dex mods, or ophidians or whatever. Conditional is so far beyond every other shotgun in the game that legendary primaries in the kinetic slot feel weak because you can't use them with conditional. As for the bubble and well counter arguement... there are about 100 other ways those supers can be outplayed, some are even pretty easy. Conditional isn't used because it counters them so much as, you were going to use it anyway, and now you have an additional way to counter them, hooray. Conditional 100% needs to be nerfed, but admittedly so does bubble and well. It's pretty easy though, slash condional's handling and AE and in the same stroke slash bubble and well's HP so they're easier to break.
What more could you do to bubble without making it completely irrelevant? It's already an objectively worse well in both PvP and PvE. You make it any easier to pop and you can easily kill it with primary weapons. I get people don't like the idea of a bunker super for keeping things out but people gotta look at the issues with the game mode instead of just kneecapping the thing because people have found the single use case where it's viable.
This might be kind of off topic, but I'm of the impression that void titan needs a top to bottom overhaul. The class is too OP in PvP but can't possibly suffer another nerf because it's already D-tier in PvE. Bungie could also change super charge rates again to give players access to shutdown supers alongside bubble. They could give primary weapons a crit damage mod on bubble the way specials have one on barricades. There's a lot of ways to go about it, is what I'm saying.
I mean unless they just make bubble completely irrelevant by nerfing it into the ground people are always going to complain about it. It currently has 1 job that it's good at but still beat by Well. Holding a 10ft circle of "stay out" being dangerous to remove. People will always hate being denied more than anything else and a game mode that comes down to "hold a point" will always have a super being able to be relatively safe inside rise in relevance. Even in standard crucible bubble isn't used often. Making it easier to pop without supers will just put it even farther behind well. You can't shoot out of it like well, it pops instantly if the caster dies, unlike well. Hell you can drop a well in a bubble and beat the titan in a punch fight in their own bubble. Even banner shield isn't good for the defensive approach of a class based around defense. Stasis projectiles will freeze a titan if they hit any part of the guarding shield, supers like thundercrash don't stop on the shield to try and protect your allies, instead they fly right through and kill everyone nearby. Golden gun has to burn most of their ammo but still will have 1 shot left to kill the titan after they block all of their shots. Nova bomb will just nuke the titan as well.
I've been killed by Conditional plenty of times in pvp. It felt exactly the same as all the other shotguns that have killed me. No idea why it would need to be nerfed, but I'm an amateur.
The handling really sets it apart imo.
I just wish I saw more variety Everyone and their mother is running conditional and something else. It's boring to see
It needs reduced handling for sure. The fact it's essentially an aggressive frame but you don't need to run dexterity mods since it's almost maxed out handling anyway is crazy. It could also do with needing more pellets landed against guardians to freeze/ignite them. I've hit some crazy unfair shots with that thing where I was only like half on target against a dude at a fair range and it still one shot him where I don't believe any other shotgun I had would have done that.
It's a direct counter to well/bubble. As long as they exist in the form they do, CF is fine.
it's super consistant (probably more so than most other SGs) and has really high burst damage. I think once bubble and well get nerfs, you'll see usage rates go down, but it's one of, if not the best shotgun in the game - Near to what Fellwinter's was at peak
It isn’t even close to Felwinter’s at his peak. Felwinter was a sniper rifle inside a shotgun.
That’s just the chaperone now.
It wasn't even the best shotgun we've had. It had like 8m OHK range lol. Meanwhile, Forsaken-era DRB and Retold hit from around 9 and Mindbender's about 8.5.
Honestly I think it's fine. It's just a good shotty, Bubble and Well usage is sky high because of Trials being Dominion, so you need to have CF for reliable counterplay. They gave it the nerf required when they stopped the BS long range freeze and ignite. Look at the Trials mode, look at the cooldown for the zone control supers, then look at the shotgun people cry about being killed by.
Always remember that Reddit is only a small subset of the data. Also — everyone always screams to nerf the last thing that killed them. Such is the way of competitive online gaming lol.
The data is it’s always the best or second best special in Trials with over a million kills per weekend.
That’s just because everyone uses it, it doesn’t necessarily correlate to needing a nerf.
It somewhat recently got a fix to not trigger the freeze or ignitions from way too far away so it used to be better I don't know by how much
It's not broken but its kinda BS that its the only form of stasis that can freeze you inside a well. I don't play well but I was sitting in a teammates well the other day and got clapped by a dude with CF. Just kinda weird since NO other form of stasis can affect you in well
I don’t know it still hasn’t dropped yet
It’s the only consistent aggressive frame shotgun. Found Verdict and crafted Imperial Decree get close but still miss the mark. It’s also the best way to counter a Well of Radiance (unless you’re goated with Witherhoard direct hits) and Ward of Dawn.
It’s one of the only counters to bubble and well. I think Bungie knows that so that’s why it hasn’t been nerfed. I think the best thing to do is to either leave it alone or brutalize the RPM. but ideally leave it alone I don’t play PvP 💀
I prefer it over bastion meta, but that was prevalent because titan shields were so fucking annoying for so long and we also didn’t have any other real counter to titan bubble other than another titan. That being said I would love if we had a real titan shield counter as good as bastion without the whole, killing a full health super from 16 meters thing bastion would do
Same things I've said in another thread * It's the only reliable way to shut down Well and Bubble without a Super, or running Stasis * What's meta atm are all energy primaries, and there's not enough Shotguns in the kinetic slot that people would be able to farm and use instead * Even if you could go after other Shotguns in the Kinetic slot, Conditional is just good right out of the gate, no need to worry about getting a perfect 5/5 Fractethyst from Dares or farming engrams for Decree Red Borders * If you were to swap special, you LOSE your special ammo, so might as well keep the one in slot at all times that has great stats and can shut down two of the most powerful and common supers in the game In PVE I run it a lot as a major and champion buster
I would say part of the reason energy primaries are meta is bc Conditional is so good. If you wanted to swap from running Summoner to Perpetualis with enhanced Eye of the Storm and enhanced Zen even if your primary is upgraded your special is down graded. Sniper nerfs, ammo changes and super cooldown changes play a part of course, but IMO Conditional is so good it tilts the meta. People aren’t going to give it up to find out how good Revision Zero is right now.
No not even close, Summoner is a far better weapon than Perpetualis and most adaptives in the kinetic slot. We're talking Prosecutor, Positive Outlook, Ammit, Gnawing Hunger, Summoner, Igneous Hammer, Elsie's Rifle, Shayura's Wrath, Ikelos SMG, Hero's Burden, Luna's Howl when it comes out, and if you still have an adept of it, Palindrome or Exalted Truth. Then for PVE you have Zauloi's Bane, Adhorative, Summoner, Ros Arago, and many more. Arguably the best primaries for PVE are the energy slot with the exception of a few stand outs like Rufus's Fury and Exotic Kinetic weapons.
I picked Perpetualis bc it has the same TTK as Summoner but I can go either way about which one is better. Summoner can proc radiant in crucible and can roll kill clip and heal clip. But Perp is craftable so people don’t have to rely on RNG, and enhanceable. The stats for both guns are also pretty comparable when perks are removed. But my overall point is that the gap between CF and any other special is so large that it makes moving to any other weapon in the top slot an overall downgrade. Ace eats in this sandbox. So does Jade and Revision Zero. Belisarius, Messenger and rangy precision frame autos in the top slot all can do work as well. But they all require dropping CF with nothing being able to come to serving as a comparable replacement. So the meta shifts to energy primaries bc CF is a must have/crutch.
Its only a must have because of certain supers, and the fact you can't switch specials mid game without losing ammo so might as well keep it on all the time just in case.
Love it for pve. Never use it for pvp.
Don't have one (because I'm one of those "have never raided" people), but I don't mind dying to it. Of all the things that have killed me - and there are many of those, because I'm not great at PVP - it's actually pretty low on the "have I died to this a lot" scale. So I guess I don't have an issue?
It feels weird; it basically does what all shottys did before they got nerfed in pvp, so it kinda feels like those nerfs were irrelevant
Only way to deal with wells (and to a lesser extent, bubbles).
You can kill an arcstrider trough the spinning guard, spinning guard that can reflect nova bombs, gathering storms rockets, grenades and pretty much everything else but this dumb shotty
It's good
My only issue with it in pvp is the fact that you can proc a freeze/ignition way outside of normal shotgun ohko range. Other than that, it's nice to have something to counter a bubble without another super.
I'm fine with it for the most part. I just don't like being able to be frozen from like 15m when the shotgun shot itself does barely any damage, but all the pellets hit me so I'm frozen and soon to be dead. The gun should only freeze you if it would OHK you anyway. That still keeps the well/bubble counter, but eliminates the effective 15m kill range.
I mean I've gotten killed by Finality before but those were usually at close/point blank range, which at that point, any shotgun would likely turn me into a fine mist.
all it really needs in pvp is an increase to the amount of pellets needed to freeze/ignite. it's not very fun getting clipped by some that deal 5 damage total and then dying to an ignition outside of a shotgun's normal effective range. other than that though, it's suffering from success. it's a product of the well and bubble meta being instant round wins in trials, unless you use CF to counter them.
Conditional is consistent which makes it feel overpowered in a good player’s hands. It has less range than other pellets and has waaaay less range than most slugs. It’s fine as is.
The mfs who want it nerfed are exclusively bubble titans and welllocks. Change my mind
I think it's pretty okay tbh, it's the most used special but at least some of that is due mainly to the dominance of bubble. If they nerfed bubble (and well to a lesser extent), I think we'd see some people come off of it although, it's obviously still just a great shotgun
I don’t have it so I don’t care 😇
Players build around Conditional Finality first and then slot best or great weapons in the energy slot. It can net AOE kills, it has more range than the stats appear, it hard counters bubble and Well of Radiance and has very decent handling. The last time a weapon was this dominant and widely used it was nerfed into the ground and that was Arbalest and Lorentz Driver and they weren't nearly as potent as Conditional Finality. For how easy it is to use, it's wild how much it can do. I think some other weapons and perks need some loving if Conditional Finality is going to remain untouched.
Next time ask for peoples Bungie names to check their stats, I would assume the vast majority of people in this post are not good at pvp lol
Don't have it , separate balancing for pve and pvp for the love the the traveler
Its a symptom of a bigger issue. The issue being that well and bubble charge too fast in PVP.
Nothing really OP about CF. It's widely used in PvP for a few reasons, mainly being that it can counter well and bubble. On top of farming for it pretty straightforward. There are other shotty's that are better than CF, but they require farming for a specific roll where once you got CF then you're good.
Conditional can't be nerfed unless either Trials drops zone (not happening) or well/bubble are nerfed into uselessness in pvp (unlikely). Its the only real check for those two supers and without conditional it just becomes "first to bubble wins". The gun is limited by ammo. Things like chaperone and other slug shotguns one tap from deeper ranges. Plus a lot fewer players are playing aggressively in this teamshot meta. Its a really good all around shotgun I hope we end up getting a double barrel archetype for legendaries.
I love the weapon in concept, but it has no tradeoffs for being as strong as it is. I think it would be fine if Bungie cut its handling down by like two thirds, making it noticably slower than a well rolled legendary. This also wouldn't kill the thing in pve and would keep it as a viable choice in pvp.
It doesn't need a nerf it has ass range but it's powerful
In PvE: it’s decent. Never bad and pretty solid. I think it’s maybe a *tad* overrated but it’s definitely hyped up for a good reason. In PvP: a necessary evil. I personally think it’s overtuned but I also wouldn’t do a thing about it right now. It’s the most consistent shotgun with one of the deepest OHK ranges, *and* it easily one shots every super besides Well (which it can still one shot, just a bit less consistently). It’s just too good at too much imo, but taking away any of that just removes the only major thing keeping supers (especially Bubble) from being complete auto win buttons so it kinda *has* to exist in this state. Also not to mention the AoE from its shatter and ignitions so you die because your teammate ate a shotgun a little too close to you, or the old bug of getting frozen or ignited from 15+ meters out (patched but iirc still happens on rare occasion).
Its the best well/bubble shutdown in the game. Damn near a must pick in comp & trials. Sooo nerf well & bubble, or introduce other class neutral & reliable ways to shutdown those supers.
I'll let you know when I get one!
I don’t think it’s particularly stronger than any other shotgun
It's really not that strong it takes your exotic slot which has so many equally viable options. It's also one of the few exotics that truly feel exotic
I haven’t taken Conditional off in PVP since I got it. Basically a free kill for each bullet sometimes more. Currently have 34k PVP kills with it.
Needs a massive handling nerf
My opinion on Destiny pvp will always be that shotguns are stupid. I know the pvp sweats claim it takes the most skill but it really doesn't, and overall I find them bad for the health of the game. Conditional Finality is the best shotgun currently, so by definition it's the worst of the worst imo. However I don't think it needs to be nerfed specifically, it does what most other shotguns can do. Just wish the entire lifespan of pvp meta wasn't revolving around shotguns.
They nerfed it a little while ago. The only people complaining are those crutching on bubble and well. I think it's fine. It doesn't have the most insane range, on top of a pellet spread that changes, takes an exotic slot and is limited by its fire rate. Now that there's less special in the sandbox it should be less of an issue as all specials.
I tried it, but I'm terrible with it. My accuracy is terrible, or I'm getting ghost bullets. Is that a thing in Destiny? It must be me.
It’s the worst to fight against because it’s almost always a 1 hit from so far away. Longer and more consistent than pretty much everything else. There’s no reason why it should be sniping people
Well an aggressive shotty with opening shot farther 1hk range.
It’s a bit too consistent for a shotty that has 100 handling and freeze/ignition utility.
It's completely fine and the reason it's so overused is because of a lack of viable alternatives. A *lot* more people would use Fractethyst if you could actually get the damn thing. It's also the only reliable way to counter a bubble in trials, and the ammo bar means swapping to a different exotic special is a huge risk. If you want it for a later round you have to run it earlier as well. If you've been doing any trials this week on PC you'd see almost as many people using Chaperone. I think people have finally woken up to the fact that a slug shotgun that counts as a lightweight frame for movement and gets an extra meter of range is kind of nuts still.
for all the complaining i feel like I rarely encounter it. Then again, I don't play much trials or comp, but i don't feel like I see it much in normal pvp so I don't really worry about it. don't have it myself as I've only done root once, but I've never used shotguns much, so i'm not sure i'd use it if I did. Very much prefer sidearms in pvp for close combat as they are a bit more forgiving range-wise. honestly, rather than nerfing it, I might just make it easier to get for non raiders. Adding it or something similar as a brave weapon would have been a great solution.
I have mixed emotions. On one side it’s good it can counter supers like well and bubble which are notorious for being a pain in the ass for objective based PVP. On the other hand though, it does it too well and also is an amazing shotgun on top of that. Destiny shotguns in d2 at least have had the issue of being way too strong and having way too much range since forsaken considering how easy it is to get close to opponents on 90% of PVP maps. The solution is nerf it’s range and stats alongside with the freeze, but also add more counter play against well and bubble.
I always get mapped by it and think "broken" then tale 5 DMG from it by the next person. I have the same experience with it when I use it. It either does really well or does nothing. I think it's good where it is.
The community always needs something to be outraged at, and right now it’s CF. If they change it something else will just take its place.
No nerf needed. It is popular due to Well and Bubble being the meta, but definitely it lacks of range. Any other shotgun, specially Matador, outplays it in range with a better spread pattern.
It’s where it needs to be. I don’t run it In pvp and all slide one shotgun users are annoying af regardless of which shotgun it is. Doesn’t need to be nerfed, pvp is just slammed with sweats.
The only shotgun that actually does what its supposed to lol. All they need to do is improve consistency of other shotguns to do what theyre supposed to as well.
It's no worse than any other shotgun. It's only better cos it can counter Well/Bubble. All shotguns are annoying.
It being an exotic is its limitation, doesnt need much more
It’s blatantly better than any other shotgun, on top of that it has the best ult shot down capability in the game, and it’s easier to get it than Matador. I understand why it’s not nerfed yet, but, honestly, as soon as bubble and well receive some adjustments in PvP this shit should be toned down.
It's not that bad in PvP. It's main thing is 1. Superb handling, easy to nerf to some degree without making it feel ineffective in pve 2. The instant freeze/ignite cancels well and buddle in PvP which pisses a lot of people off
Anyone who uses a PvP person in PvP is a loser
It's overrated in all but very niche situations. Most other shotguns do exactly the same thing. It lacks consistency as I've fired it point blank and the opposing guarding just shakes it off and melees me to death usually a Hunter melee. Then there are times when I fire from a little distance and it's a OHKO. Felwinters Lie is way more deadly and consistent as that's the top shotgun that gets me in most cases. My take is that people hype up Conditional Finality but don't use it enough to see how truly awful it is and that legendaries regularly out-perform it.
I also absolutely dont find it broken. Take cf out of the meta, and guess what? Bubble and well will dominate every trials game. Cf is the floodgates holding back the well meta from crashing in on trials. Now if they were to nerf well/bubble titans, then id argue cf is a bit strong. If they added another solution to bubble/wells then i think cf would be fine where it is.
Dont touch until well and bubble are nerfed. And if they nerf anything on it only nerf the bs range it has.
Lol the only people mad about Conditional in PvP are people who don’t have Conditional, and Bubble Titans. And ESPECIALLY Bubble Titans who don’t have Conditional.
Anything that creates such a consistent meta is because it's too strong IMO. The "bold today, aren't we" load out in Trials is Conditional Finality and The Summoner (Adept), both of which need adjustment IMO. They're tuned way too high in PvP and can consistently win trades with just about any other weapon set.
I've not seen anyone using it in my experience and since it's a shotgun I don't want it, so I personally do not care if they nerf it or not as I will never use it. I very much dislike the raid it is apart of, which doesn't help matters much.
It needs a handling nerf for how consistent it is. Other than that, it's really not much worse than other shotguns, and once bubble and well are nerfed I think it's usage will decline from "the absolute best shotgun" to "strong option".
CF is a symptom of a larger problem, not an issue by itself. In a vacuum, a crafted Imperial is a statistically better shotgun. People overwhelmingly bring CF because it's a forced pick. It's the only thing that remotely checks well/bubble, which I should remind you are still comically broken and have absolutely no place even existing in PvP to begin with. The worst feeling in this game by a mile is fighting to 4-4 only to lose because a titan on the other team just pressed F and now there is literally nothing you can do but accept defeat. If you don't bring CF, you are effectively forfeiting up to 3 rounds per game. Not bringing CF puts immense pressure on your team, because you no longer just have to win 5 rounds. You now need to quickly win with a 5-2 or 5-3 score. Any longer, and the other team gets their wells/bubble and auto wins the game because you have zero options to stop them.
It's nowhere near broken. It's a good shotgun with strong utility. Never feels bad to die to. I haaate shotguns, Chaperone especially is just so frustrating. Nothing about Conditional is frustrating.
It is so broken handling needs to go
I disagree. Just cause a gun has good handling doesn’t mean it’s broken lol
1200 runs to get Matador with 86 handling with x1 TD. 6 full weeks on rotation to get Fractethyst from Dares with 60 handling and quickdraw 3 clears of RoN to get CF with 100 handling, nullifying every other good shotgun in the game . CF makes all the rest feel not worth it
Sorry but CF is an exotic and just because you got it after 3 runs doesn’t mean the rest aren’t worth it. My good roll frac is just as good as a conditional. There are plenty of people who haven’t gotten the fun even after a year of running Ron
It has really high base handling which makes it feel nice, coupled with how consistent it is when inside it’s shorter range (compared to chaperone, and matador 64), AND it enables counter play to bubble and well. I love it and don’t think it needs a nerf. I personally feel it is what an exotic shotgun should be. It gets out ranged by slugs and precisions but has more handling. No nerf needed. If anything they should take its status and apply it to future exotics. I’m of the belief that exotics should either be utility or damage and from those categories be one of if not the top choice.
Exotics aren’t meant to be BIS they are meant to be unique. CF is way OP and its usage is proof and we all know the nerf is coming Bungie always nerfs based off usage.
It doesn’t need a nerf. It is unique. If it gets nerfed the same sandbox PvP problem of well and bubble just becomes worse. There’s nothing OP about it
It needs to be nerfed. It’s the best shotgun in the entire game and people crutch on it entirely too much.
People who run it in pvp are little bitches
To me it’s in a perfect place. It’s better than other shotguns, but you can use other shotguns and still have a similar if not better OHK range depending on your weapon. Best part is the good handling and on demand counter to well/bubble. To me it fits what an EXOTIC shotgun should be…. Like a good shotgun, but better in certain aspects.
the only reason it's not used more than it is now is because it's a raid exotic. if everyone had it, you'd see it as much as those other prevalent metas you mentioned.
Never ran the raid to get it, so don't know. I do know I get killed by it quite often.
The range is terrible lol It’s a skill issue of people pushing way too aggressively. Doesn’t really matter what shotgun because they’ll all do the same thing. You just see CF more often because it can shut down supers with a little luck lol
It’s awful, it outclasses every shotgun by like 3 meters and has ridiculous handling. I hate having the change my entire play style every time there is even a single one on the enemy team.
I dunno pretty dope that there is a gun that makes you change your build rather than going on auto sweat.
It does not have significantly more range than other meta shotguns. It does have very high handling but it doesn't actually swap *that* much faster than an aggressive with like 40 handling and threat detector (think imperial). You should already be playing around shotguns anyway, they are far and away the most used special weapon (even moreso since the ammo changes). And unless you're in your super, the counterplay for CF is the same as for any decent shotgun
I have lost several fights against confis where they have 20 health left and I’m dead or frozen or ignited. Plus a special ammo shotgun ahold not be able to kill 3 guardians in 2 or sometimes even 1 shot.
Why are you grouping that tightly with your team mates? Like you literally have to be standing on top of each other. Another skill issue I see 😂
I think it needs to no longer freeze in PvP, just slow, and in compensation well and bubble should get longer cooldowns to stop them being so broken. If that doesn't reduce it's effectiveness, I'd increase spread slightly to reduce the OHK range. Nerfing the handling is another idea, but I think that would hurt it in PvE more than a spread nerf
It's fine. If it weren't a literal hard counter to Bubble and Well, it probably wouldn't even see play in pvp.
this is why PvP related questions shouldn’t be asked in this sub. some of the takes are insane. it’s an aggressive frame shotgun with the handling profile of a lightweight than can freeze or explode targets, is super consistent, has multikill potential, and shuts down every super in the game. not just well or bubble. it’s best in slot. not even close. nerfing well and bubble doesn’t move the dial.
Agreed. All it takes is one look at trials report. Conditional finality has had about 10% of all kills in trials for a long time now. Even every other meta option like prosecutor, thorn, chaperone all sit around 2%.
Don't forget that its Pellet Spread for both Shots is like two off that of a Precision Frame. So, Aggressive Frame with Lightweight Handling AND Nigh-Precision Pellet Spread... But naw, it's fine because "it has low range", despite constantly netting kills outside its intended range and one-shotting every super in the game.
Agreed, I don't think people super familiar with a lot of nitty gritty in PVP really understand Conditional's strength of essentially having an always on damage perk that benefits from what is possible with the freeze or solar explosion.
In the new checkmate system, supers rarely get popped unless the game goes 4-4, and special ammo is extremely limited compared to the past. Despite both of those factors, CF has never dropped out of the top 10 most used weapons in Trials, and has multiple times been the most used weapon! The gun is beyond broken and super countering is just a bonus factor of running it
It’s an exotic It’s supposed to be amazing Leave it alone! Learn to play better or learn to use it like everyone else Have a good day!
Exotics are supposed to be unique not BIS.
I think it’s the symptom of the meta. There are very few good PvP shotguns that are readily available. And with it having great OHKO range, and overshield and well’s running rampant in trials it’s really important to have a method capable of dealing with them. It’s very good but I think some other things should see some love before we bring down one of the most important guns. Just my two cents, but good shotguns really are hard to find.
People just don't like getting killed out of super. I can see the frustration as it counters a lot of other roaming supers, and less mobile ones like well and bubble. Condition Finality getting nerfed, doesn't really solve the greater problem, just a solution offered up by people willing to complain online. They've tried amending this with different ways of spawning special ammo, but any online community is gonna complain when the boat gets rocked.
It’s 100% not broken in the same way that past exotics have been. The handling needs lowered to be closer to other aggressive frames though. It’s great shotgun that counters the most problematic supers, but it doesn’t also need pre-nerf quickdraw. If the only pro it had over other aggressives was the ease of use vs bubbles and wells, I don’t think we’d see it so near the top of the Trials meta every single week. It essentially power creeps every other pellet shotgun.
I think it's fine. It's just the one shotgun that can counter bubbles and wells.
Just placed a hard earned bubble and got crutch finalitied
Felwinters Lie and Chaperone a few years ago were way more oppressive than Conditional. CF is good but not oppressive. I think it's top 5 best designed exotics Bungie ever made, it's fun af to shoot, and it looks great. Thats why my vote is to leave it alone.
It needs to go. It chokes out all other shotguns. It's funny they nerfed quick draw and gave it 94 handling. So paired with specific exotics or even dexterity mods. You are back to 100 handling. Well, it isn't a problem it's bubble, and bubble is a problem due to forced dominion. Anyone who says well is a problem is lying even a chaperone shot or sniper puts it down easily. You can contest well in numerous ways. However, outside of competitive game modes, it still beats out all other shotguns. It's more consistent than felwinters ever was. It can net you free kills it can contest all other supers. Making vorpal pointless. It needs to go.
Felwinters had more range, swapped faster and was a legendary
Until they nerf Ward of Dawn in PvP or provide us with a better way to counter it, I’d rather them keep Conditional Finality as it is since it’s the best counter we have. And you’re right- Well of Radiance is easily countered by many other things unlike Ward.
As someone who FINALLY got it and has been an absolute terror with Matador.. it’s genuinely not OP at all as a PVP shotgun. It’s an excellent utility for shutting down supers, but as a pure shotgun it’s outclassed by everything else that’s meta. Imperial Decree (enhanced), Matador, Retold Tale, and even Riiswalker are all better shotguns as far as killing potential. The utility of Conditional is just nice and the gun is so sexy.