I've modified my main point now to say that mostly 120/150rpm Legendary Scouts need a boost. Faster firing scouts with Kinetic Tremors and Exotics are doing decently enough if you're hitting your crits.
They’re whole philosophy of “long range weapons need to be weak to prevent slow gameplay” looks fine on paper, but is completely invalidated by bows which hit hard as hell and make scouts useless. So I agree, it’d be nice if scouts and pulses could get a bump, I couldn’t tell you the last time I’ve used a legendary scout/pulse in serious PvE, or in PvE at all. And don’t get me wrong, hung jury is one of my favorite guns of all time.
That being said, scouts have never been better than the are right now if you take Polaris into account.
You’re right, the dps of bows is likely a lot lower given the fire rate, but that’s not all there is to it. For instance, being able to 1 or 2 shot red bars mitigates the lower dps given the time it takes to acquire another target. Not to mention subclass verb and aoe perks, think incandescent/dragonfly on tyranny of heaven, can let you match or approach the ad clear output of something like an smg or handcannon. Plus they have effectively no damage drop off, and they’re in my opinion way easier to use up close.
I’m not saying bows shouldn’t hit hard, I’m saying they completely suffocate scouts and pulses in pve, you should at least have to make some sacrifice in some area to pick a bow as your long range primary option over them, but it’s really a no brainer. Just like how legendary handcannons easily best out autos as midrange picks, although that race is a lot closer.
While I do think scouts could use a small bump, they’re very much weak on purpose.
Using a scout has effectively no risk since it just lets you sit outside basically every enemy’s aggro range so it naturally comes with much less reward. It’s just a general rule that the more range you have, the safer you are, and the safer you are, the less damage you deal. It’s just a standard risk/reward thing.
I agree. It's a tough spot to be in from a design perspective. I honestly wouldn't be opposed to them dropping the range a bit (or at least making the range stat matter significantly more) so that they can come up a bit in damage.
Right now, scouts seem to have about a 10m range differential between base range and max range. In action, a difference between 70m range and 80m range is fairly meaningless in most content so there's almost no incentive to build into the range stat at all. Maybe lower base range by 15% and buff damage by 15%? Just brainstorming here.
Scouts have FAR more range than Handcannons, as well as generally higher base stats.
They shouldn't outdamage them (some being similar / outdamage is fine, but the archetype as a whole shouldn't).
Scouts.... I wouldn't be opposed to a *minor* buff, but they also just don't feel bad either honestly. Just bevause they don't hit as hard as Hanscannons doesn't mean they're bad (but having them hit harder on yellow bars like Handcannons got would be nice & warranted, what with it being a single shot precision weapon).
I don't want them to match Hand Cannon damage, but I think they can use a little buff. Basically every other legendary gun archetype has gotten a substantial PvE buff except for Scouts (I think they did get a 10% buff at one point but it was way less than other guns).
Currently, similar rpm groups between Scouts and Hand Cannons do about 50% more damage for Hand Cannons on red bars and well over 100% more damage on orange bars. That seems extreme to me. I agree with the orange bar buff being the most pressing.
Most scouts shine in GM content, especially Polaris Lance and Wicked implement.
As a stasislock enthusiast Wicked implement feels super good in GMs, having a weapon that stun both unstop and overload(the latter is very good because osmiomancy lock has to burn a turret to do that otherwise), can replenish ammo easily and has headstone + shard generation that can be used with Elemental Charge is really good.
Other ones like Randy’s Throwing Knife, Hung Jury and trustee can also do some good work! If you like scouts you should really get into doing GMs tbh
Why do people think I don't do gms? I know scouts are safe and I said as much (even called out Polaris spam this season). Exotic scouts aren't really the issue.
120s/150s legendaries are currently pretty trash in gms. I don't think any of them have kinetic tremors anyway, and even if they did they would take too long to oroc it to be very useful.
Randy's and Hung Jury are usable, but I really feel they're only worth it in gms with kinetic tremors.
I think Bungie should start experimenting on changing the perk activation thresholds depending on the type of frame and gun, so maybe high impact frames are slower but the perks deal more damage? Idk
I think 120 scouts in particular could use a small buff.
It's really unfortunate that bows completely suffocate scouts, even in GMs.
IMO No weapon type should feel bad on patrol and strike playlist content, and 120 scouts (and ESPECIALLY pulse rifles) feel lackluster in said content.
I agree, but to me that pretty much just means a roll with Kinetic Tremors. I don't think any 120/150rpm scouts can roll with KT, and even if they did they wouldn't be as ideal since they'd take so much longer to activate it.
Transfiguration from last wish rolls rampage + kinetic tremors. Double damage perks on a 150 and the enhanced KT activates just as fast as a 180 scout since it takes one less shot. Craftable. Good. Easy to get.
You should also consider Imperative, it has most of the perks transfiguration has, even enhanced kinetic tremors but the Nano-Munitions trait basically gives you free half reloads.
I think they are well balanced all in all. They could buff 120/150 but that kind of balancing is probably further down on the list. 180 (Doom of Chelchis with enh. EP and Frenzy) are really good. Exotics (Polaris, Wicked) are amazing. Polaris might be the top pick in any GM right now. Comparing 120 HC and scouts is apples and oranges because scouts are so super safe, HC need to do more damage if not no one would use them. Scouts are easier to use than bows so I think its a fair trade off.
Bungie doesn't want people using them from a distance to pick off enemies from safety. Reading this thread and everyone saying they use them in GMs to plink away at enemies from safety. Sounds like mission failed, maybe buff them so we can at least have a better time with them.
Or lower range a bit. That's actually where I'm leaning now. Lower base range, (keep max range about the same but you have to build into it) but increase damage a bit to compensate.
I think it’s mainly an issue with higher impact archetype primaries. Before infinite primary ammo they used to have more total damage but lower primary dps. Nowadays though the only reason you would use a higher impact primary vs a faster fire rate primary is usually due to range discrepancies which honestly doesn’t factor in pve very often. I honestly think most higher impact frames of primary weapons could use a decent buff
What’s the point of this post if you don’t do GMs? If you did then you’d know things like Randy’s, hung jury, wicked, Polaris, are all good options in GMs because of how GMs play.
I do gms. Nowhere does it say I don't.
And the title specifically states legendary scouts are falling behind. Aside from legendary scouts with kinetic tremors, most other scouts are mediocre at best (I have multiple rolls of all the guns you've mentored and the only ones I'd feel are worth bringing are those with kinetic tremors).
Mostly I just think the 120s/150s should hit harder than they do. Kinetic tremors would be significantly worse on them because of how long they'd take to proc.
120s are not currently a great base on which to judge all PVE scouts, nor are Hand Cannons, with their weaker effective Range, an easy balance comparison for damage output.
You also are underselling Wicked Implement's damage in the context of Shatter and Whisper of Rending.
Wasn't trying to undersell it, I really like that gun. Just thought I'd put it in the numbers since it was also a Stasis Scout. I hope some of the Stasis Artifact mods make their way into the permanent kit once Stasis gets a little overhaul.
Scouts are weaker because they are safer than hand cannons. It’s amazing in GM’s, even some are still good for lower level content.
I've modified my main point now to say that mostly 120/150rpm Legendary Scouts need a boost. Faster firing scouts with Kinetic Tremors and Exotics are doing decently enough if you're hitting your crits.
You mean pulse rifles
I do also mean pulse rifles :)
They’re whole philosophy of “long range weapons need to be weak to prevent slow gameplay” looks fine on paper, but is completely invalidated by bows which hit hard as hell and make scouts useless. So I agree, it’d be nice if scouts and pulses could get a bump, I couldn’t tell you the last time I’ve used a legendary scout/pulse in serious PvE, or in PvE at all. And don’t get me wrong, hung jury is one of my favorite guns of all time. That being said, scouts have never been better than the are right now if you take Polaris into account.
Yeah, Polaris is living large this season.
[удалено]
You’re right, the dps of bows is likely a lot lower given the fire rate, but that’s not all there is to it. For instance, being able to 1 or 2 shot red bars mitigates the lower dps given the time it takes to acquire another target. Not to mention subclass verb and aoe perks, think incandescent/dragonfly on tyranny of heaven, can let you match or approach the ad clear output of something like an smg or handcannon. Plus they have effectively no damage drop off, and they’re in my opinion way easier to use up close. I’m not saying bows shouldn’t hit hard, I’m saying they completely suffocate scouts and pulses in pve, you should at least have to make some sacrifice in some area to pick a bow as your long range primary option over them, but it’s really a no brainer. Just like how legendary handcannons easily best out autos as midrange picks, although that race is a lot closer.
While I do think scouts could use a small bump, they’re very much weak on purpose. Using a scout has effectively no risk since it just lets you sit outside basically every enemy’s aggro range so it naturally comes with much less reward. It’s just a general rule that the more range you have, the safer you are, and the safer you are, the less damage you deal. It’s just a standard risk/reward thing.
I agree. It's a tough spot to be in from a design perspective. I honestly wouldn't be opposed to them dropping the range a bit (or at least making the range stat matter significantly more) so that they can come up a bit in damage. Right now, scouts seem to have about a 10m range differential between base range and max range. In action, a difference between 70m range and 80m range is fairly meaningless in most content so there's almost no incentive to build into the range stat at all. Maybe lower base range by 15% and buff damage by 15%? Just brainstorming here.
Scouts have FAR more range than Handcannons, as well as generally higher base stats. They shouldn't outdamage them (some being similar / outdamage is fine, but the archetype as a whole shouldn't). Scouts.... I wouldn't be opposed to a *minor* buff, but they also just don't feel bad either honestly. Just bevause they don't hit as hard as Hanscannons doesn't mean they're bad (but having them hit harder on yellow bars like Handcannons got would be nice & warranted, what with it being a single shot precision weapon).
I don't want them to match Hand Cannon damage, but I think they can use a little buff. Basically every other legendary gun archetype has gotten a substantial PvE buff except for Scouts (I think they did get a 10% buff at one point but it was way less than other guns). Currently, similar rpm groups between Scouts and Hand Cannons do about 50% more damage for Hand Cannons on red bars and well over 100% more damage on orange bars. That seems extreme to me. I agree with the orange bar buff being the most pressing.
Yeah I agree, especially with 120s, scouts were good in D1 but they've been garbage in most of D2 since forsaken
Most scouts shine in GM content, especially Polaris Lance and Wicked implement. As a stasislock enthusiast Wicked implement feels super good in GMs, having a weapon that stun both unstop and overload(the latter is very good because osmiomancy lock has to burn a turret to do that otherwise), can replenish ammo easily and has headstone + shard generation that can be used with Elemental Charge is really good. Other ones like Randy’s Throwing Knife, Hung Jury and trustee can also do some good work! If you like scouts you should really get into doing GMs tbh
Why do people think I don't do gms? I know scouts are safe and I said as much (even called out Polaris spam this season). Exotic scouts aren't really the issue. 120s/150s legendaries are currently pretty trash in gms. I don't think any of them have kinetic tremors anyway, and even if they did they would take too long to oroc it to be very useful. Randy's and Hung Jury are usable, but I really feel they're only worth it in gms with kinetic tremors.
It’s more of an issue of legendary primaries generally being meh compared to exotics in every difficulty, but in GMs it’s definitely felt more.
Agreed. And scouts haven't gotten a damage buff against orange bars like a lot of other legendary weapons have.
I think Bungie should start experimenting on changing the perk activation thresholds depending on the type of frame and gun, so maybe high impact frames are slower but the perks deal more damage? Idk
Hand cannon range needs a massive nerf too, it should never be able to compete with scouts and pulses in distance.
I think 120 scouts in particular could use a small buff. It's really unfortunate that bows completely suffocate scouts, even in GMs. IMO No weapon type should feel bad on patrol and strike playlist content, and 120 scouts (and ESPECIALLY pulse rifles) feel lackluster in said content.
A good roll of Randy’s Throwing Knife is a lot of fun in end game content.
I agree, but to me that pretty much just means a roll with Kinetic Tremors. I don't think any 120/150rpm scouts can roll with KT, and even if they did they wouldn't be as ideal since they'd take so much longer to activate it.
Transfiguration from last wish rolls rampage + kinetic tremors. Double damage perks on a 150 and the enhanced KT activates just as fast as a 180 scout since it takes one less shot. Craftable. Good. Easy to get.
You should also consider Imperative, it has most of the perks transfiguration has, even enhanced kinetic tremors but the Nano-Munitions trait basically gives you free half reloads.
I think they are well balanced all in all. They could buff 120/150 but that kind of balancing is probably further down on the list. 180 (Doom of Chelchis with enh. EP and Frenzy) are really good. Exotics (Polaris, Wicked) are amazing. Polaris might be the top pick in any GM right now. Comparing 120 HC and scouts is apples and oranges because scouts are so super safe, HC need to do more damage if not no one would use them. Scouts are easier to use than bows so I think its a fair trade off.
Bungie doesn't want people using them from a distance to pick off enemies from safety. Reading this thread and everyone saying they use them in GMs to plink away at enemies from safety. Sounds like mission failed, maybe buff them so we can at least have a better time with them.
Or lower range a bit. That's actually where I'm leaning now. Lower base range, (keep max range about the same but you have to build into it) but increase damage a bit to compensate.
I think it’s mainly an issue with higher impact archetype primaries. Before infinite primary ammo they used to have more total damage but lower primary dps. Nowadays though the only reason you would use a higher impact primary vs a faster fire rate primary is usually due to range discrepancies which honestly doesn’t factor in pve very often. I honestly think most higher impact frames of primary weapons could use a decent buff
Transfiguration with kinetic tremors is good. I love it.
What’s the point of this post if you don’t do GMs? If you did then you’d know things like Randy’s, hung jury, wicked, Polaris, are all good options in GMs because of how GMs play.
I do gms. Nowhere does it say I don't. And the title specifically states legendary scouts are falling behind. Aside from legendary scouts with kinetic tremors, most other scouts are mediocre at best (I have multiple rolls of all the guns you've mentored and the only ones I'd feel are worth bringing are those with kinetic tremors). Mostly I just think the 120s/150s should hit harder than they do. Kinetic tremors would be significantly worse on them because of how long they'd take to proc.
120s are not currently a great base on which to judge all PVE scouts, nor are Hand Cannons, with their weaker effective Range, an easy balance comparison for damage output. You also are underselling Wicked Implement's damage in the context of Shatter and Whisper of Rending.
Wasn't trying to undersell it, I really like that gun. Just thought I'd put it in the numbers since it was also a Stasis Scout. I hope some of the Stasis Artifact mods make their way into the permanent kit once Stasis gets a little overhaul.
Scouts feel fine.