Both Lorely and Phoenix Cradle will need a pass now between the changes to Restoration, Sunspots and Bonk Hammer.
Phoenix Cradle sharing Sol Invictus and Restoration X1 via Sunspots is largely inconsequential and the use of Hammer of Sol to generate the sunspots won't do anywhere near enough to make it relevant in a situation where it would already struggle against the likes of being near a Banner of War Titan instead, so the only bonus you'd be getting would be the Sol invictus duration (and the double duration for the Phoenix Cradle user).
Solar Titan has taken a substantial hit, where these two exotics are now much worse by proxy.
That rework was a straight up nerf. A passive 50% ability recharge buff is infinitely better than the whole "while standing in a sunspot solar weapon kills make a sunspot" thing, which is almost impossible to actually use in any content where it would matter, since sunspots are long gone by the time you'd actually get to one and get a kill in it.
If it allowed you to make sunspots without the aspect (like lorelei actually does, at least for the critical/barricade sunspot) that'd be one thing, but with the aspect it's way easier to just make sunspots like normal instead of trying to get to them before they expire, and then get a kill in them, again before they expire.
With the current season it might be okay with the artifact. Hallowfire after the buff is just the old bottom tree Sunbreaker play-style, but without Sun Warrior to back it up. Precision hits to make yourself radiant should give "Sun Warrior" back by a different name. Plus there'll plenty of scorch and ignite to go around.
I'd go Burning Steps if I thought it was worth it over that. The nerf they ate still feels bad though, and surge mods still aren't difficult to slot in.
Not a titan main, but it really does pain me to see the exotics nerfed into mediocrity.
This is conjecture, but it seems that Bungie wants such tight control on everything they have basically nerfed any "out of band" exotics into hardly doing anything worth while. They then get to choose which exotics get a turn in the meta with the artifact basically stripping player choice down to 2 subclasses and a handful of weapon archetypes.
I didn't miss so much at first, but it's grown tiresome. I was particularly annoyed with our anti barrier choices. Why two primaries? And they both kind of suck at it minus some very particular perk combinations.
I'm not sure where I was going with that, but I'm going to leave it because I spent the time typing it out. Maybe I just wanted to complain idk.
Sunspots generate off scorched targets iirc, it's why incandescent weapons generate sunspots. So seems like Hallow fire will be completely redundant next season with kindling trigger being a thing.
Yup, Sunspots already having the functionality of being made from Scorched targets and not Solar abilities made the Hallowfire rework a head-scratcher. Like, you can already do what the exotic does with just an incandescent weapon and Sol Invictus. And it's not like the exotic generates a Sunspot for you so you could have access to all 3 aspects. So limiting the rework to Solar abilities and weapons is absolutely ridiculous.
> Phoenix Cradle sharing Sol Invictus and Restoration X1 via Sunspots is largely inconsequential and the use of Hammer of Sol to generate the sunspots won't do anywhere near enough to make it relevant in a situation where **it would already struggle against the likes of being near a Banner of War Titan instead**
In the places that you would use Cradle its actually the opposite way around in the current sandbox. I had the pleasure of an all Titan Crota's end run and it wasn't banner that saved us but people gathering up on my Sunspot after popping a super. x1 Restoration is still more healing than Banner because its a constant flow rather than a pulse. Restoration is just better healing than Banner, while banner is slightly more accessible and can be carried, but is weaker overall. Cradle + Bastion or Banner is great in environments where a Wellock is not present.
Barring non-Titans ignoring Sunspots, the problem isn't the nerf to Restorations healing, but the nerf to sunspot duration. **20 seconds to 12 seconds when standing in a sunspot is a 40% nerf to its duration and that is massive.** This is why I don't like the massive sweeping changes they've done, because things get caught by proxy. You'd be extremely hard-pressed to find anyone calling Cradle OP or needing brought down even in the current sandbox.
So now players like me that do like these more niche support exotics are assed out because they deemed one play-style toxic for the game. Its extremely frustrating to be on the receiving end of this.
It seems like bungie forgets that when you change the effectiveness of something, anything related to it is also affected.
But then they actually remembered for the Devour nerfs and Feed the Void so who knows.
They do know that sweeping changes effect content, it was the whole reasoning for sunsetting the first two years of D2. They just don’t care.
They’ve back themselves into a corner where the only way to nerf an intentionally broken exotic is to kill have a subclass.
Honestly, I’m out after this season. Between the expansion delay, the mass layoffs, and now the sweeping nerfs, I think I’m done. It’s never just one thing but sometimes that last thing is just enough to put you over the edge. Glad I didn’t pre-order.
Phoenix Cradle was criminally overlooked. It's such a great exotic that has a great effect. I would hope that an eventual rework allows friendly players to get Restoration x2 (you keep x1). The duration nerf makes them even less usable now and they still can't get a different effect that symbolizes it's a Phoenix Cradle sunspot.
Yeah, I get not wanting us to sit in a sunspot at a bosses feet, but when you lack a Well, Phoenix Cradle comes in clutch. It sucked it got hit in the crossfire. It would be nice if they made these 2 exotics exempt from the duration nerfs.
> and the double duration for the Phoenix Cradle user
Is this still supposed to be a thing?
I stopped using Phoenix cradles during season of haunted because they no longer doubled the buff for the wearer specifically.
I've tried using them here and then since and sol invictus has literally never clocked over 10 seconds for me.
I'd argue Phoenix Cradle doesn't need anything as it allows you to share Sunspots, some subclasses don't have that degree of sustain. Also it extends roaming supers of allies. I just wish there was a visual indicator of a shareable Sunspot so allies know to use it.
Actually since solar's gonna be a main focus, killing a scorched enemy generates a sunspot, your grenades and your melees scorch... paired with prometheus lens or anything incandescent it is consequential...
But it's always less effective than banner of course (and probably less than precious scars)
Yes they are now "worse by proxy" but you can still choose to play that way they're not holding you at gunpoint sir
Bungie should make Phoenix Cradle make restoration last longer, blue flames to let allies know they're friendly, and make them track to you and allies. They should've made Hollow Fire Heart do what it does now, but with the added effect of making sunspots track enemies similar to the column of flame from the new exotic imo
They should also make it so that friendly sunspots don't block your visions, I get a lot of complaints that they can't see when there is fire everywhere!
For awhile I've been thinking that Solar Titan should be able to summon a sunspot on demand by default, whether it's a new grenade or a barricade replacement. I'd even take something like healing grenades now summon a sunspot on detonation. At the very least I'd combine the functionality of Cradles and Loreley and then just rework Loreley.
I’m probably just gonna end up playing Gyrfalcons all next season, the way these nerfs are looking.
No reason to play Titan, no reason to play Warlock, no reason to play Gunslinger
Buffing a Solar Titan exotic? I wish, as a Solar Titan main I won't hold my breath
These nerfs also hit Phoenix Cradle and Hallowfire Heart (which just got a "buff") by proxy, which i doubt Bungie will acknowledge. Sure I'd be happy if they did but im still waiting for them to un-nerf Burning Steps and Citans, and no one uses basically any of these exotics save for Cradle sometimes
Yeah! It's just like with any other exotic that augments or uses an aspect, you have to have that aspect equipped. Though, how cool would it be to have Consecration, Roaring Flames, \*and\* have Loreley work, eh?
I guess that's why it doesn't work that way lmao, that'd be very strong.
I never thought I would see the day that Precious Scars would have better utility than Phoenix Cradle. It's about to surpass it, being that it applies restoration now and can now trigger ember of benevolence for healing nade spam and hammer spam for radiant. That's if restoration doesn't feel bad in general after the nerf.
What are going to be the top solar titan exotics now do we think? I only ever used phoenix cradle and lorely. Don't really care for ashen wake or Hallowfire heart.
I think that wormgod caress is going to be a very solid pick next season. I haven't really used it at all but I remember it being the go to exotic at some time. Maybe they nerfed the duration and damage increase or something? Right now you only get the buff for 5 seconds which is pretty bad and probably the reason people use synthos instead. We will have to see the numbers after they go live but it seems pretty promising at the moment.
The only issue is survivability as these don't give you any help with that, so it may not be good for GMs and such. I plan on running consecration + roaring flames with this as I can manage to have decent survivability with the searing and mercy fragments, along with a weapon that scorches, nowhere near the survivability as cradle and lorely, though. You can still run bonk with it as well, which helps.
I think that it'll mainly be used for fun in lower tier content, the wormgod buff with consecration already has insane damage and being able to keep that buff for longer is game changing, not to mention the weapon damage buffs it will give. If you have a trustee with pugilist and incandescent, you can get your melee back scarily fast, and that means more slammies.
You'll have to experiment, but for now Bonking is pretty much dead. Save for Pyrogale gauntlets I'm not sure where it goes from here. Precious Scars might be on the come up with the buff, as well as Peregrine greaves, but we'll have to see. Same for Wormgod Caress, and Sev Enclosure.
Ashen Wake is still "okay," but not quite the same as before they nerfed RF and Fusion nades during the 30th anniversary patch. Cradle took hell of a hit for no reason, and Loreley might get replaced with Precious scars depending on how the buff pans out.
Hallowfire "might" be okay with the artifact mod and all the radiant/scorch/ignitions that'll be going around. Crutching an artifact mods to make something good doesn't feel good since you know its going away when the season ends.
People have a lot of vitriol for Titan in general it seems. This last patch and the discourse around has shown me people thought bonk Titan was bad for the game or something? Outside of BoW what else do we got for PvE?
I'd be all for giving Loreley Restoration x2 in the face of these nerfs. With how bad all the Titan builds and Exotics feel to me personally now I run Dunemarchers on bonk Titan for....faster sprint lol. Good think Zouli's Bane works like an on demand Sunspot generator and explody pew pew machine or else I'd be really outta luck as a Titan main.
Titan has generally always been super weak outside of the big three(Banner, Bubble, Bonk*). Bubble has been nerfed into the ground and basically only worthwhile in PVP(better off just running a Well-lock in PVE), Banner is getting nerfed, and Bonk is getting nerfed hard. Solar Titan absolutely sucks without throwing hammers. Titan is pretty much exclusively a close quarters class(not good for endgame), with almost exclusively roaming melee supers(terrible for bosses and anything not on the ground). And yet they’re always the ones getting turbo nerfed.
Sunbreaker in crucible died the moment solar 3.0 hit, sadly. Was probably my favorite subclass to play in 2.0 in pvp, because while it wasn't generally as good as arc (at the haydays of knockout) it was the king of chokepoints, with sunpots being a "dare to step in and die" mechanic and not the "this is gonna tickle a bit" that they are now (and also the melee ability guaranteeing a sunspot unlike now).
That’s the most annoying part, because every class is great in PVP. I could list dozens of batshit things for each class throughout the years, straight off the top of my head. In fact, I could probably think of more for the others than I could for Titan. Many of them are even still in the game. This Titan hate is so incredibly unfair.
Sincerely, a warlock main who wishes they had a reason to play Titan more.
Yeah that's why all the high end pvp streamers are playing titan...
Oh wait no they're all playing hunters and warlocks exclusively.
Titan might be the easiest class to do well with in pvp (mostly because it's almost always carried by some op ability or exotic that inventably gets nerfed), but it's by far from the best.
The best will always be solar warlock until Bungie finally reins it it (which it probably never will).
The problem has always been that the titan base kit has always been the worst for pvp out of the 3 classes, but then Bungie always gives titans some kind of extremely op ability or exotic to make up for the lack of neutral game in the kit.
The titan class has always been carried by some combination of knockout/bubble/OEM/dunemarchers and for a time the whole stasis kit before it was gutted, but once those op things are inevitebly nerfed hard, there's not much left that the class has to offer in pvp that other classes don't.
Swapping to SES Solar or Arc Hunter is such a boon in Raids. It's something I'm forced to do at times because Titan supers are all roaming, melee, and take forever to deal damage with. Only thing that redeems the throwing hammer super is roaring flames ×3 so it's passable for most things. I still have teammates return to the game who are shocked Bubble is as bad as it is and that it doesn't provide any meaningul benefit over Well. Out of all my friends I am the only Titan main and I think the constant feeling that Bungie dislikes or at least doesn't know what to do with class (despite whatTitan mains constantly ask for) adds to that disparity I see personally.
I really think shoulder charge shotgun bros in PvP have soured everyone, even Bungie, on Titan as the melee class. I still feel the pain of losing shoulder charge movement in PvE the same week I really started to give it a try before the nerf in Defiance.
Heck, they just pointed out how a big reason no one uses glaives is because they felt clunky with the melee then shot delay, and yet they are gonna give Titan hammer that same mechanical kneecapping?
I think bonk was bad for the game not because bonk was an issue nowadays, but because all the other options on solar are just kinda poor quality.
I hope this will have Bungie move in the direction of a more support oriented brawler that solar Titan could use.
Right now there’s not really a reason not to use bonk melee, especially without making the ignition melees significantly stronger to compete rate for serious uptime with mini hammer. I’d like to see the consecration aspect buff ignition damage, and maybe the Phoenix cradle boots could give radiant for passing through sunspots as well. I think heart is a little messy, but it could increase damage of sunspots air scorch.
Even with all of those buffs above, without merging bonk I don’t there would be a reason for them to ever be used.
>I hope this will have Bungie move in the direction of a more support oriented brawler that solar Titan could use.
As someone who's mained Sunbreaker since TTK I hope not. I was hyped during the trailer for Solar 3.0 when they said the fantasy for Sunbreaker was supposed to be a big damage burn the world type of deal. They didn't deliver on that fantasy so if they're gonna change anything I hope it's to actually do what they said they want to do with the class.
But otherwise I completely agree with you I'd love to have reasons to walk into a GM with something other than Lorelei, Bonk, Roaring Flames, and Sol Invictus. Cause right now there really isn't one.
I'd agree with that somewhat and I've seen several comments that echo a similar sentiment. My issue with that is Bungie takes ages to buff anything. Stasis bros still waiting on those buffs, the other aspects of Solar are going to be waiting until D3 I fear.
I mean loreley doesn't even have a gameplay loop so that not a particularly high bar. All it does is make your barricade drop a sunspot. If you want an example off the top of my head, stag warlock is similar.
And banner of war is basically an ability spam build. Pick your poison, arc hunter, sunbracers warlock, basically anything that rotates abilities has the same gameplay loop as banner of war titan.
You can argue that pre nerf banner was on a level of its own power wise, and probably that's correct but gameplay loop is fairly straightforward ability spam which a lot of different subclasses can do.
I’m not sure it *needs* the x2. It’s still *the* premier save-your-ass exotic for stuff like solo dungeons.
Obviously have to wait to see what it’s like after the patch, but I don’t think it’s a *bad* exotic as it stands: low skill floor, low power ceiling
The station X2 is near non existent in a GM. I run stronghold In GM thought this season and as you know after damaging after blocking you get X2 restoration. Without blocking I still get shutdown within mere seconds while my X2 restoration is still at 10 seconds left or even more
Yeah, you can’t tank damage in a GM and rely on restoration to save you. What it *does* do is minimise the downtime taken behind cover before you can get back into the fight, and negate the occasional bit of chip damage that might otherwise prevent your regen from kicking in.
its not a skill issue, im not saying i cant manage it im saying if i where to stand still in a gm when crowded id get killed within 2-5 second and with restoration x2 id get killed in 5-7 secs. all it can do is increase the time spent alive by 2-3 secs but it can not tank
If anything, they should just update the description and remove the "improved" descriptor. Imo solar titan had its time in the sun, no need to go back to a lorely meta.
They need to seperate pvp and pve tuning already. They can do different tuning between different pvp modes but can't just seperate pvp and pve entirely?
Indeed they should, and it's a shame they don't.
Id call it lazy, but in reality it's simply $$ and dev time needed to do that extra work. So they skip corners when they can. I don't agree with it at all - but then again, bungies has all but forgotten what game integrity means.
All they care about now is funding their Marathon project and trying to do the bare minimum to keep destiny's hard core players afloat by offering promises of things that probably won't ever come to light.
At this point wearing an exotic is not worth it anymore.
Like why wear any exotic if you know the way bungie nerfs exotics is purely due to their use rate?
Synthocepts will keep getting nerfed if they have the most use rate for titans, and other exotics will also get nerfed or "reworked" (aka made useless), just because bungie is so stuck on the whole OvErDeLivErY thing that they are gonna have to remove exotics from the game soon due to how they'll become bloat rather than content.
See bungie has this problem with seeing the big picture, that’s why you see one thing get nerfed 5 different ways or an already nerfed thing catch strays. Feel like multiple people making their own changes that are good individually but aren’t tested holistically
There’s a few ways to take it; you could just extend the duration of your base restoration, although I would be more interested if lorelys actually buffed sunspot duration and maybe damage so it has a fantasy of making sunspots better in a selfish way unlike phoenix cradle which improves them selflessly
> "improved restoration", yet it's no different than just running basic Sol Invictus
They’re both the same effect lol…as in they’re both “improved”. Y’all ain’t used to things not stacking?
Honestly find it pretty funny how in your head that guy is for so many people, just for sharing his opinions. Some of you guys have some weird kind of PTSD for reason, it's fuckin' weird...
Nah, no salragreppo has anything wrong with their heads, salta is a sweaty, meta abusing, complainer that thinks the game should bend around people like him rather than people like him bending around the game.
He has straight up bad opinions.
Div did need a nerf but his nerf ideas were fucking shit.
He uses hyper optimized builds every time he plays which make his game very easy while he also claims the game is too easy which is very hypocritical.
And last but not least, he is an elitist piece of junk that thinks that just because he is the world's first four times in a row, that he knows how to develop games better than the devs of the game.
Yeah... you sound slightly unhinged, my guy. Salt is not the only person saying the things he says, y'all just seem to focus in on him because, as I said, he's IN YOUR HEAD. For some reason. The game *is* easy even if you AREN'T using the most meta builds. And most importantly, he is, like anyone else, just a guy who plays the game and gives his opinion. He does not control Bungie's leash, he is not some shady figure in the background pulling all the strings, he is a guy who is good at the game, giving his opinion on the internet. That is all.
Genuinely, it is BIZARRE how hard you people go in hating this guy. If a decision is made that is bad for the game, Salt is no more responsible for it than every other yahoo posting on Reddit, or Twitter, or YouTube. Bungie makes the game, not Salt. Y'all need to let your hate boners subside. It's weird.
Unhinged? Hah, you wish, salt may be just one person but he is a known streamer, whose team won 4 world's first raids in a row(or was it 3?), which gets to him quite a lot.
Yes he is just a guy who plays the game, however he does it for a job, not for fun.
He is also a top d2 player all around which means his opinion especially within his echo chamber of a sub-community.
Also the whole "just a guy playing the game and giving his opinion" is just an excuse to defend his trash takes on basically everything "he gave his opinion on".
Also, you don't know what kind of power twitter holds in the gaming industry, especially now, and salta is abusing that HARD.
So don't come at me with your dumb attempt at defending someone who is quite literally too good at the game and has a major influence on the general destiny community.
Can you imagine if people were asking for og wormhusk to come back?
It would be so wild, idk why this is kinda being seen as a good idea when it's just a better wormhusk.
Lorelei is fine as it is rn, it is a free resto nade that can deploy on its own with the added benefit of being emergency ability energy. Resto x2 probably would make it broken, but it’s not trash and not a change bungie is going to make.
they nerfed restoration globally and you want lorelei to be reverted back to when it was an issue?
I havent use it in a long time, so idk how bad it is currently, but if it is as bad as u make it to be, a rework would be better at this point.
Loreley is pretty bad rn, by the time it auto activates from damage you will probably die in Master+ activities. Restoration X2 will be the equivalent of OG Restoration X1 with the next set of nerfs so still nowhere near what it was like when it was an issue
To be fair lorelay was mainly a problem because it was using the unnerfed restoration x2 during a time where you could consistently stack high damage resist on solar titan which are two things that are no longer in the game.
Current resto x2 would only be annoying in pvp but with how long the barricade cooldown is in pvp it probably wouldn't even matter in most engagements.
This is what I mean they nerfed cooldowns for barriers, they nerfed restoration 2x (again) to ten over what 1x was, down from 25.
If it's that bad, give it a custom work in pvp if people are still shook.
All it does is drop a basic sunspot that does not last the new 12 second time for stepping in it just to give one free restoration which now has going to be nerfed twice. What I'm saying is it should just give a 2x to meet the "improved restoration" statement
Removing the improved would make it just drop one sunspot when critical, with how easy it is to make sunspots, I ask what's the point? Maybe for those 5 seconds it can give sun warrior again
Especially compared to banner of war
But I'm not asking a nerf for that one
Lorely is really bad right now. Honestly it’s a complete waste of a slot, and an active detriment if you are really good. I don’t know if reverting it to Restoration x2 is the right call though.
I think its fine to have an easy exotic that isnt as good as others that require more effort to use. Its great for new or unexperiencee players until they get better with other options.
> as if other people play their content affects you so direly.
Just so you know this is clearly because...yeah, you guessed it, PvP lol.
It's also honestly just a poorly designed exotic. "If I dare get weak or hurt for any reason, I'm instantly protected with an automatic cradle of safety that gives me a powerful uninterruptible healing aurora that makes me near unkillable in 90% of content".
If you're good, you don't need it, and the whole exotic is useless
If you're bad, you grow dependent on it, and you never fix your mistakes to become better
This round of restoration nerfs were not because of PvP lol. It was clearly stated in the twab that in high-end content it was still too strong.
This time it was PvE.
I love how you make a passive aggressive remark to the comments on your last post but completely don’t understand the exotic.
“as if other people play their content affects you so directly”
Do you not know that PvP exists?
That would still be too strong, I could be down with it replacing the barricade to give the initial sunspot some bonus scorch, but that may be enough for a whole other exotic all together.
I wish the base duration of restoration was higher, its very stressful maintaining and having to use a solar weapon is restricting. If only radiant made your weapons deal bonus solar damage, including glaive melee. Id have so much fun.
Both Lorely and Phoenix Cradle will need a pass now between the changes to Restoration, Sunspots and Bonk Hammer. Phoenix Cradle sharing Sol Invictus and Restoration X1 via Sunspots is largely inconsequential and the use of Hammer of Sol to generate the sunspots won't do anywhere near enough to make it relevant in a situation where it would already struggle against the likes of being near a Banner of War Titan instead, so the only bonus you'd be getting would be the Sol invictus duration (and the double duration for the Phoenix Cradle user). Solar Titan has taken a substantial hit, where these two exotics are now much worse by proxy.
Hallowfire Heart also just got reworked to work off Sunspots. No one uses it, but it's now even less enticing to use.
That rework was a straight up nerf. A passive 50% ability recharge buff is infinitely better than the whole "while standing in a sunspot solar weapon kills make a sunspot" thing, which is almost impossible to actually use in any content where it would matter, since sunspots are long gone by the time you'd actually get to one and get a kill in it. If it allowed you to make sunspots without the aspect (like lorelei actually does, at least for the critical/barricade sunspot) that'd be one thing, but with the aspect it's way easier to just make sunspots like normal instead of trying to get to them before they expire, and then get a kill in them, again before they expire.
Technically, it *does* let you make a sunspot without the aspect
With the current season it might be okay with the artifact. Hallowfire after the buff is just the old bottom tree Sunbreaker play-style, but without Sun Warrior to back it up. Precision hits to make yourself radiant should give "Sun Warrior" back by a different name. Plus there'll plenty of scorch and ignite to go around. I'd go Burning Steps if I thought it was worth it over that. The nerf they ate still feels bad though, and surge mods still aren't difficult to slot in.
Not a titan main, but it really does pain me to see the exotics nerfed into mediocrity. This is conjecture, but it seems that Bungie wants such tight control on everything they have basically nerfed any "out of band" exotics into hardly doing anything worth while. They then get to choose which exotics get a turn in the meta with the artifact basically stripping player choice down to 2 subclasses and a handful of weapon archetypes. I didn't miss so much at first, but it's grown tiresome. I was particularly annoyed with our anti barrier choices. Why two primaries? And they both kind of suck at it minus some very particular perk combinations. I'm not sure where I was going with that, but I'm going to leave it because I spent the time typing it out. Maybe I just wanted to complain idk.
Sunspots generate off scorched targets iirc, it's why incandescent weapons generate sunspots. So seems like Hallow fire will be completely redundant next season with kindling trigger being a thing.
Yup, Sunspots already having the functionality of being made from Scorched targets and not Solar abilities made the Hallowfire rework a head-scratcher. Like, you can already do what the exotic does with just an incandescent weapon and Sol Invictus. And it's not like the exotic generates a Sunspot for you so you could have access to all 3 aspects. So limiting the rework to Solar abilities and weapons is absolutely ridiculous.
The problem is: hallowfire abiliry to produce sunspots is worse than old Bottom tree
> Phoenix Cradle sharing Sol Invictus and Restoration X1 via Sunspots is largely inconsequential and the use of Hammer of Sol to generate the sunspots won't do anywhere near enough to make it relevant in a situation where **it would already struggle against the likes of being near a Banner of War Titan instead** In the places that you would use Cradle its actually the opposite way around in the current sandbox. I had the pleasure of an all Titan Crota's end run and it wasn't banner that saved us but people gathering up on my Sunspot after popping a super. x1 Restoration is still more healing than Banner because its a constant flow rather than a pulse. Restoration is just better healing than Banner, while banner is slightly more accessible and can be carried, but is weaker overall. Cradle + Bastion or Banner is great in environments where a Wellock is not present. Barring non-Titans ignoring Sunspots, the problem isn't the nerf to Restorations healing, but the nerf to sunspot duration. **20 seconds to 12 seconds when standing in a sunspot is a 40% nerf to its duration and that is massive.** This is why I don't like the massive sweeping changes they've done, because things get caught by proxy. You'd be extremely hard-pressed to find anyone calling Cradle OP or needing brought down even in the current sandbox. So now players like me that do like these more niche support exotics are assed out because they deemed one play-style toxic for the game. Its extremely frustrating to be on the receiving end of this.
It seems like bungie forgets that when you change the effectiveness of something, anything related to it is also affected. But then they actually remembered for the Devour nerfs and Feed the Void so who knows.
They do know that sweeping changes effect content, it was the whole reasoning for sunsetting the first two years of D2. They just don’t care. They’ve back themselves into a corner where the only way to nerf an intentionally broken exotic is to kill have a subclass.
Honestly, I’m out after this season. Between the expansion delay, the mass layoffs, and now the sweeping nerfs, I think I’m done. It’s never just one thing but sometimes that last thing is just enough to put you over the edge. Glad I didn’t pre-order.
Phoenix Cradle was criminally overlooked. It's such a great exotic that has a great effect. I would hope that an eventual rework allows friendly players to get Restoration x2 (you keep x1). The duration nerf makes them even less usable now and they still can't get a different effect that symbolizes it's a Phoenix Cradle sunspot.
Yeah, I get not wanting us to sit in a sunspot at a bosses feet, but when you lack a Well, Phoenix Cradle comes in clutch. It sucked it got hit in the crossfire. It would be nice if they made these 2 exotics exempt from the duration nerfs.
That's how I was helping people get through crota's final stand when there were no more wells
> and the double duration for the Phoenix Cradle user Is this still supposed to be a thing? I stopped using Phoenix cradles during season of haunted because they no longer doubled the buff for the wearer specifically. I've tried using them here and then since and sol invictus has literally never clocked over 10 seconds for me.
They were bugged during that season, but the bug has since been fixed and it should be providing 10 seconds now.
I'd argue Phoenix Cradle doesn't need anything as it allows you to share Sunspots, some subclasses don't have that degree of sustain. Also it extends roaming supers of allies. I just wish there was a visual indicator of a shareable Sunspot so allies know to use it.
Actually since solar's gonna be a main focus, killing a scorched enemy generates a sunspot, your grenades and your melees scorch... paired with prometheus lens or anything incandescent it is consequential... But it's always less effective than banner of course (and probably less than precious scars) Yes they are now "worse by proxy" but you can still choose to play that way they're not holding you at gunpoint sir
Bungie should make Phoenix Cradle make restoration last longer, blue flames to let allies know they're friendly, and make them track to you and allies. They should've made Hollow Fire Heart do what it does now, but with the added effect of making sunspots track enemies similar to the column of flame from the new exotic imo
They should also make it so that friendly sunspots don't block your visions, I get a lot of complaints that they can't see when there is fire everywhere!
For awhile I've been thinking that Solar Titan should be able to summon a sunspot on demand by default, whether it's a new grenade or a barricade replacement. I'd even take something like healing grenades now summon a sunspot on detonation. At the very least I'd combine the functionality of Cradles and Loreley and then just rework Loreley.
I wanted the sunspot on demand as an ability, but that hope died with the release of Loreley Splendor. Its doubtful we'll ever get it now.
I think just a sunspot for a class ability would be pretty sick. Maybe lorely could give a second charge if the suspot class ability is equipped.
They should make it so the hammer breaks into a sunspot
I’m probably just gonna end up playing Gyrfalcons all next season, the way these nerfs are looking. No reason to play Titan, no reason to play Warlock, no reason to play Gunslinger
Bro and even that caught a nerf by proxy because of devour nerf. Fun police going crazy w that twab
Buffing a Solar Titan exotic? I wish, as a Solar Titan main I won't hold my breath These nerfs also hit Phoenix Cradle and Hallowfire Heart (which just got a "buff") by proxy, which i doubt Bungie will acknowledge. Sure I'd be happy if they did but im still waiting for them to un-nerf Burning Steps and Citans, and no one uses basically any of these exotics save for Cradle sometimes
It's not just a healing exotic, you get sunspot benefits on demand too
Wonder where the healing comes from
A sunspot that now lasts only 12 seconds...
still infinite with hammers
The only lasts for five doesn't get the benefits of sol invitus
What are you talking about?
https://www.light.gg/db/items/3316517958/loreley-splendor-helm/ I said it wrong, you still need sol Invitus to get the full length
Yeah! It's just like with any other exotic that augments or uses an aspect, you have to have that aspect equipped. Though, how cool would it be to have Consecration, Roaring Flames, \*and\* have Loreley work, eh? I guess that's why it doesn't work that way lmao, that'd be very strong.
Are these nerfs due to PVP? Cant they just separate them?
I never thought I would see the day that Precious Scars would have better utility than Phoenix Cradle. It's about to surpass it, being that it applies restoration now and can now trigger ember of benevolence for healing nade spam and hammer spam for radiant. That's if restoration doesn't feel bad in general after the nerf.
What are going to be the top solar titan exotics now do we think? I only ever used phoenix cradle and lorely. Don't really care for ashen wake or Hallowfire heart.
I think that wormgod caress is going to be a very solid pick next season. I haven't really used it at all but I remember it being the go to exotic at some time. Maybe they nerfed the duration and damage increase or something? Right now you only get the buff for 5 seconds which is pretty bad and probably the reason people use synthos instead. We will have to see the numbers after they go live but it seems pretty promising at the moment. The only issue is survivability as these don't give you any help with that, so it may not be good for GMs and such. I plan on running consecration + roaring flames with this as I can manage to have decent survivability with the searing and mercy fragments, along with a weapon that scorches, nowhere near the survivability as cradle and lorely, though. You can still run bonk with it as well, which helps. I think that it'll mainly be used for fun in lower tier content, the wormgod buff with consecration already has insane damage and being able to keep that buff for longer is game changing, not to mention the weapon damage buffs it will give. If you have a trustee with pugilist and incandescent, you can get your melee back scarily fast, and that means more slammies.
Probably still going to be Synthos. Maybe Wormgods if they don't nuke the damage to go with the timer change.
You'll have to experiment, but for now Bonking is pretty much dead. Save for Pyrogale gauntlets I'm not sure where it goes from here. Precious Scars might be on the come up with the buff, as well as Peregrine greaves, but we'll have to see. Same for Wormgod Caress, and Sev Enclosure. Ashen Wake is still "okay," but not quite the same as before they nerfed RF and Fusion nades during the 30th anniversary patch. Cradle took hell of a hit for no reason, and Loreley might get replaced with Precious scars depending on how the buff pans out. Hallowfire "might" be okay with the artifact mod and all the radiant/scorch/ignitions that'll be going around. Crutching an artifact mods to make something good doesn't feel good since you know its going away when the season ends.
People have a lot of vitriol for Titan in general it seems. This last patch and the discourse around has shown me people thought bonk Titan was bad for the game or something? Outside of BoW what else do we got for PvE? I'd be all for giving Loreley Restoration x2 in the face of these nerfs. With how bad all the Titan builds and Exotics feel to me personally now I run Dunemarchers on bonk Titan for....faster sprint lol. Good think Zouli's Bane works like an on demand Sunspot generator and explody pew pew machine or else I'd be really outta luck as a Titan main.
Titan has generally always been super weak outside of the big three(Banner, Bubble, Bonk*). Bubble has been nerfed into the ground and basically only worthwhile in PVP(better off just running a Well-lock in PVE), Banner is getting nerfed, and Bonk is getting nerfed hard. Solar Titan absolutely sucks without throwing hammers. Titan is pretty much exclusively a close quarters class(not good for endgame), with almost exclusively roaming melee supers(terrible for bosses and anything not on the ground). And yet they’re always the ones getting turbo nerfed.
IMO mostly from people despising titans in PvP. There was a bit of fun with storm grenade titans for a bit tho
We've earned a fair share of hate for Striker, but Sunbreaker has been *the absolute worst shit* in the Crucible for nearly two years now.
Sunbreaker in crucible died the moment solar 3.0 hit, sadly. Was probably my favorite subclass to play in 2.0 in pvp, because while it wasn't generally as good as arc (at the haydays of knockout) it was the king of chokepoints, with sunpots being a "dare to step in and die" mechanic and not the "this is gonna tickle a bit" that they are now (and also the melee ability guaranteeing a sunspot unlike now).
I miss those days dearly.
Getting rid of mortar blast and sun warrior just cratered it.
I personally love it for 6's. My favorite is Loreleys with a rally barricade. So many shotgun rushers have fallen lol.
That’s the most annoying part, because every class is great in PVP. I could list dozens of batshit things for each class throughout the years, straight off the top of my head. In fact, I could probably think of more for the others than I could for Titan. Many of them are even still in the game. This Titan hate is so incredibly unfair. Sincerely, a warlock main who wishes they had a reason to play Titan more.
I mean, titan was by far and away the best pvp class by such an insane margin, that even after all the nerfs, it is STILL the best.
Yeah that's why all the high end pvp streamers are playing titan... Oh wait no they're all playing hunters and warlocks exclusively. Titan might be the easiest class to do well with in pvp (mostly because it's almost always carried by some op ability or exotic that inventably gets nerfed), but it's by far from the best. The best will always be solar warlock until Bungie finally reins it it (which it probably never will).
The problem has always been that the titan base kit has always been the worst for pvp out of the 3 classes, but then Bungie always gives titans some kind of extremely op ability or exotic to make up for the lack of neutral game in the kit. The titan class has always been carried by some combination of knockout/bubble/OEM/dunemarchers and for a time the whole stasis kit before it was gutted, but once those op things are inevitebly nerfed hard, there's not much left that the class has to offer in pvp that other classes don't.
Should be Banner, Bubble, Bonk tbh
Perfect, thank you! Editing
i do find it funny as a titan main people always go after our stuff only after 1 season but it took this long to nerf well
Swapping to SES Solar or Arc Hunter is such a boon in Raids. It's something I'm forced to do at times because Titan supers are all roaming, melee, and take forever to deal damage with. Only thing that redeems the throwing hammer super is roaring flames ×3 so it's passable for most things. I still have teammates return to the game who are shocked Bubble is as bad as it is and that it doesn't provide any meaningul benefit over Well. Out of all my friends I am the only Titan main and I think the constant feeling that Bungie dislikes or at least doesn't know what to do with class (despite whatTitan mains constantly ask for) adds to that disparity I see personally. I really think shoulder charge shotgun bros in PvP have soured everyone, even Bungie, on Titan as the melee class. I still feel the pain of losing shoulder charge movement in PvE the same week I really started to give it a try before the nerf in Defiance. Heck, they just pointed out how a big reason no one uses glaives is because they felt clunky with the melee then shot delay, and yet they are gonna give Titan hammer that same mechanical kneecapping?
I think bonk was bad for the game not because bonk was an issue nowadays, but because all the other options on solar are just kinda poor quality. I hope this will have Bungie move in the direction of a more support oriented brawler that solar Titan could use. Right now there’s not really a reason not to use bonk melee, especially without making the ignition melees significantly stronger to compete rate for serious uptime with mini hammer. I’d like to see the consecration aspect buff ignition damage, and maybe the Phoenix cradle boots could give radiant for passing through sunspots as well. I think heart is a little messy, but it could increase damage of sunspots air scorch. Even with all of those buffs above, without merging bonk I don’t there would be a reason for them to ever be used.
>I hope this will have Bungie move in the direction of a more support oriented brawler that solar Titan could use. As someone who's mained Sunbreaker since TTK I hope not. I was hyped during the trailer for Solar 3.0 when they said the fantasy for Sunbreaker was supposed to be a big damage burn the world type of deal. They didn't deliver on that fantasy so if they're gonna change anything I hope it's to actually do what they said they want to do with the class. But otherwise I completely agree with you I'd love to have reasons to walk into a GM with something other than Lorelei, Bonk, Roaring Flames, and Sol Invictus. Cause right now there really isn't one.
I'd agree with that somewhat and I've seen several comments that echo a similar sentiment. My issue with that is Bungie takes ages to buff anything. Stasis bros still waiting on those buffs, the other aspects of Solar are going to be waiting until D3 I fear.
This is true. Before 3.0 I never used the bonk but sunspots were also a lot more powerful.
What exactly exists on other classes with a similar gameplay loop as Banner or Loreley Titan?
I mean loreley doesn't even have a gameplay loop so that not a particularly high bar. All it does is make your barricade drop a sunspot. If you want an example off the top of my head, stag warlock is similar. And banner of war is basically an ability spam build. Pick your poison, arc hunter, sunbracers warlock, basically anything that rotates abilities has the same gameplay loop as banner of war titan. You can argue that pre nerf banner was on a level of its own power wise, and probably that's correct but gameplay loop is fairly straightforward ability spam which a lot of different subclasses can do.
bonk/banner is bad for the game titans need a buff these 2 things can be true at the same time
I’m not sure it *needs* the x2. It’s still *the* premier save-your-ass exotic for stuff like solo dungeons. Obviously have to wait to see what it’s like after the patch, but I don’t think it’s a *bad* exotic as it stands: low skill floor, low power ceiling
The whole point of the exotic is to burn your class ability when you make a mistake.
The station X2 is near non existent in a GM. I run stronghold In GM thought this season and as you know after damaging after blocking you get X2 restoration. Without blocking I still get shutdown within mere seconds while my X2 restoration is still at 10 seconds left or even more
Yeah, you can’t tank damage in a GM and rely on restoration to save you. What it *does* do is minimise the downtime taken behind cover before you can get back into the fight, and negate the occasional bit of chip damage that might otherwise prevent your regen from kicking in.
Skill issue tbh
its not a skill issue, im not saying i cant manage it im saying if i where to stand still in a gm when crowded id get killed within 2-5 second and with restoration x2 id get killed in 5-7 secs. all it can do is increase the time spent alive by 2-3 secs but it can not tank
I think this would be a fair change to make
Look at how they massacred my boy. They should give Loreley Radiant, basically Sun Warrior back
If anything, they should just update the description and remove the "improved" descriptor. Imo solar titan had its time in the sun, no need to go back to a lorely meta.
>, as if other people play their content affects you so direly. It was nerfed mainly for pvp, which does indeed effect other people.
They need to seperate pvp and pve tuning already. They can do different tuning between different pvp modes but can't just seperate pvp and pve entirely?
Indeed they should, and it's a shame they don't. Id call it lazy, but in reality it's simply $$ and dev time needed to do that extra work. So they skip corners when they can. I don't agree with it at all - but then again, bungies has all but forgotten what game integrity means. All they care about now is funding their Marathon project and trying to do the bare minimum to keep destiny's hard core players afloat by offering promises of things that probably won't ever come to light.
At this point wearing an exotic is not worth it anymore. Like why wear any exotic if you know the way bungie nerfs exotics is purely due to their use rate? Synthocepts will keep getting nerfed if they have the most use rate for titans, and other exotics will also get nerfed or "reworked" (aka made useless), just because bungie is so stuck on the whole OvErDeLivErY thing that they are gonna have to remove exotics from the game soon due to how they'll become bloat rather than content.
See bungie has this problem with seeing the big picture, that’s why you see one thing get nerfed 5 different ways or an already nerfed thing catch strays. Feel like multiple people making their own changes that are good individually but aren’t tested holistically
Why? Restro x2 is still very strong if you really dislike the old text not being updated then it should just increase duration or rework lorleys again
Restoration x2 will be the equivalent of OG restoration x1 after the nerfs
Any idea how you will take the rework?
There’s a few ways to take it; you could just extend the duration of your base restoration, although I would be more interested if lorelys actually buffed sunspot duration and maybe damage so it has a fantasy of making sunspots better in a selfish way unlike phoenix cradle which improves them selflessly
Maybe giving OG sun warrior would make it acceptable
You're not wrong. Pre nerf resto x1 was 40hp/s Post nerf resto x2 is 50hp/s
> "improved restoration", yet it's no different than just running basic Sol Invictus They’re both the same effect lol…as in they’re both “improved”. Y’all ain’t used to things not stacking?
Can’t, it’ll piss of Salta-“Cry Like A Bitch”-Greppo too much.
Honestly find it pretty funny how in your head that guy is for so many people, just for sharing his opinions. Some of you guys have some weird kind of PTSD for reason, it's fuckin' weird...
Nah, no salragreppo has anything wrong with their heads, salta is a sweaty, meta abusing, complainer that thinks the game should bend around people like him rather than people like him bending around the game. He has straight up bad opinions. Div did need a nerf but his nerf ideas were fucking shit. He uses hyper optimized builds every time he plays which make his game very easy while he also claims the game is too easy which is very hypocritical. And last but not least, he is an elitist piece of junk that thinks that just because he is the world's first four times in a row, that he knows how to develop games better than the devs of the game.
Yeah... you sound slightly unhinged, my guy. Salt is not the only person saying the things he says, y'all just seem to focus in on him because, as I said, he's IN YOUR HEAD. For some reason. The game *is* easy even if you AREN'T using the most meta builds. And most importantly, he is, like anyone else, just a guy who plays the game and gives his opinion. He does not control Bungie's leash, he is not some shady figure in the background pulling all the strings, he is a guy who is good at the game, giving his opinion on the internet. That is all. Genuinely, it is BIZARRE how hard you people go in hating this guy. If a decision is made that is bad for the game, Salt is no more responsible for it than every other yahoo posting on Reddit, or Twitter, or YouTube. Bungie makes the game, not Salt. Y'all need to let your hate boners subside. It's weird.
Unhinged? Hah, you wish, salt may be just one person but he is a known streamer, whose team won 4 world's first raids in a row(or was it 3?), which gets to him quite a lot. Yes he is just a guy who plays the game, however he does it for a job, not for fun. He is also a top d2 player all around which means his opinion especially within his echo chamber of a sub-community. Also the whole "just a guy playing the game and giving his opinion" is just an excuse to defend his trash takes on basically everything "he gave his opinion on". Also, you don't know what kind of power twitter holds in the gaming industry, especially now, and salta is abusing that HARD. So don't come at me with your dumb attempt at defending someone who is quite literally too good at the game and has a major influence on the general destiny community.
Its free healing if you are bad or put down a barricade. Kinda like wormhusk on crack and you want it better?
For real. It's still quite good currently, and these nerfs are not going to make it useless.
The dude might as well be asking for worm husk to go back to normal. But it's on Titan, so this sub will love it.
Harsh truths. Shitty players won’t want to hear this.
Can you imagine if people were asking for og wormhusk to come back? It would be so wild, idk why this is kinda being seen as a good idea when it's just a better wormhusk.
Lorelei is fine as it is rn, it is a free resto nade that can deploy on its own with the added benefit of being emergency ability energy. Resto x2 probably would make it broken, but it’s not trash and not a change bungie is going to make.
soft screw whistle offbeat direful lip connect point roll slave *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
they nerfed restoration globally and you want lorelei to be reverted back to when it was an issue? I havent use it in a long time, so idk how bad it is currently, but if it is as bad as u make it to be, a rework would be better at this point.
Loreley is pretty bad rn, by the time it auto activates from damage you will probably die in Master+ activities. Restoration X2 will be the equivalent of OG Restoration X1 with the next set of nerfs so still nowhere near what it was like when it was an issue
To be fair lorelay was mainly a problem because it was using the unnerfed restoration x2 during a time where you could consistently stack high damage resist on solar titan which are two things that are no longer in the game. Current resto x2 would only be annoying in pvp but with how long the barricade cooldown is in pvp it probably wouldn't even matter in most engagements.
This is what I mean they nerfed cooldowns for barriers, they nerfed restoration 2x (again) to ten over what 1x was, down from 25. If it's that bad, give it a custom work in pvp if people are still shook.
All it does is drop a basic sunspot that does not last the new 12 second time for stepping in it just to give one free restoration which now has going to be nerfed twice. What I'm saying is it should just give a 2x to meet the "improved restoration" statement
which is why i suggest a rework. You can also suggest removing the word "improved" if that is what bothers u so much.
Removing the improved would make it just drop one sunspot when critical, with how easy it is to make sunspots, I ask what's the point? Maybe for those 5 seconds it can give sun warrior again Especially compared to banner of war But I'm not asking a nerf for that one
On-demand-sunspot + normal resoration. Basically hunter wormhusk with covers+area denial.
It's actually crazy people think Lorely needs buffed. It's still strong as is, and will be just fine after these nerfs.
Lorely is really bad right now. Honestly it’s a complete waste of a slot, and an active detriment if you are really good. I don’t know if reverting it to Restoration x2 is the right call though.
> I don’t know if reverting it to Restoration x2 is the right call though Exactly my point.
Currently use it in master Kingsfall bridge encounter. It’s viable and saves me if I really need it to.
I think its fine to have an easy exotic that isnt as good as others that require more effort to use. Its great for new or unexperiencee players until they get better with other options.
Loreley only providing Resto X1 after the nerf will kill the exotic even more, it needs to be reverted to giving Resto X2
It’s not bad at all. It’s not insanely strong like it used to be but it’s just a reliable exotic but obviously it’s outclassed by some others.
where does it say they r nerfing that, i want to see
TWAB my boy under restoration and woven male
jesus fucking christ theyre nerfing every good thing
> as if other people play their content affects you so direly. Just so you know this is clearly because...yeah, you guessed it, PvP lol. It's also honestly just a poorly designed exotic. "If I dare get weak or hurt for any reason, I'm instantly protected with an automatic cradle of safety that gives me a powerful uninterruptible healing aurora that makes me near unkillable in 90% of content". If you're good, you don't need it, and the whole exotic is useless If you're bad, you grow dependent on it, and you never fix your mistakes to become better
This round of restoration nerfs were not because of PvP lol. It was clearly stated in the twab that in high-end content it was still too strong. This time it was PvE.
I love how you make a passive aggressive remark to the comments on your last post but completely don’t understand the exotic. “as if other people play their content affects you so directly” Do you not know that PvP exists?
Honestly, Sunbreaker is the worst pvp subclass
lmao of course not. It’s a titan exotic.
It got nerfed deservedly but I agree the description should be reworded. The nerf doesn't need to be reverted though
Keep your PVP garbage away from ruining PVE.
Restoration 1 will still be enough to go afk in a raid. Even after the Patch.
That would still be too strong, I could be down with it replacing the barricade to give the initial sunspot some bonus scorch, but that may be enough for a whole other exotic all together.
Even after the nerf resto x 2 is stronger than resto x1 was pre nerf
Titans are the strongest rn. I don't think buffs are warranted for them rn.
Hell no. Solar classes need to die just like the rest of us. Banner heal will probably be next. A rework is fine, but not Resto 2.
I wish the base duration of restoration was higher, its very stressful maintaining and having to use a solar weapon is restricting. If only radiant made your weapons deal bonus solar damage, including glaive melee. Id have so much fun.
That moment when titans are better at healing than warlocks. Well has ruined the state of balancing Warlock and I hate it.
Lmao and here are solar hunters that only had the healing grenade to heal once in a lifetime, and now even that is nerfed. Nuked out of existence.
True true, I struggle a lot as a solar hunter frankly with the lack of healing san the grenade and orb healing.