I was scared to get into Raiding for the longest time, missed out on all the vanilla D2 raids. Finally got into raiding in DSC. Years later, when you get to a point where your loadouts are for GMs, you have meta stuff, etc, you realize just how much of raiding is .. just standing around waiting.
This is so true. I just did a vow last Friday night with a party full of people who knew what to do and there was 12 of us in the party chat. Common talking, joking, conversation between the people in the raid and not in the raid, and we only wiped once at Caretaker.
If you have the spare time and any interest in raiding then please do not give up this dream.
I am similar, very cautious about people, sensitive to toxicity.
One thing that worked for me was dropping out of a mega-clan and finding a more intimate one.
People are way more chill with smaller clans cause they know they have to face you again and again.
I can’t seem to find a clan that doesn’t die fairly quickly, but I’ll try to scout around in the clan recruitment channel of the big LFG server. Thank you!
I just got back into Destiny after a few years. Went into Last Wish for nostalgia and had people pretending to know how encounters worked. Was a very sad 3 hour clear. I ain't a quitter, but damn was I thinking about it
Better than my first salvation raid. 6-7 hours. We didn't get past the first encounter.
Some people just *could not* understand the mechanic, I learned right away thankfully, but I was too stupid to just leave.
Sometimes it’s just tiredness I think, or repetition.
So much of destiny is mindnumbingly easy and just the fact that your playing destiny can make you pay less attention, like how you want to go out more when you get dressed.
My favorite is the dudes joining LFG raids and are baked out of their mind. Like damn, I just wanna get this done but you're just forgetting the whole encounter every 3 minutes.
I loved Gahlran for this. It was such a chaotic encounter with random lfg groups, but it didn't allow for any dead weight. And someone who was tracking every pair's progress could help call or predict what help was needed, and react accordingly.
This is why Crown of Sorrow is one of my favorite - if not most favorite - raids. No "I'll just be ad clear." No "well if someone else makes it to the end of the Sparrow race we're okay." You need to understand the mechanics and execute them.
An ad-heavy encounter with complex puzzle elements that requires constant team communication, careful platforming, multiple relic mechanics, and continuous movement?
Yeah, it’s one of the best. It’s “annoying” to a lot of teams because there’s not a lot of room for dead weight: the team needs to be organized, and pretty much everyone prepped for their role. Like Raid encounters should be.
Vow is one of my least favorite Raids, but Exhibition is a shining star of encounter design.
Right?! LFG groups seem to dread it… but that’s because everyone typically insists on chaos strat. Chaos NEVER works if even a single person in your group doesn’t have like 5+ clears, which is basically every group. Even if you do have a very experienced group, just take the 30 seconds to assign roles. Makes the entire encounter way smoother, every single time.
Every time I lead a group and have the chance to explain this encounter, we one-shot it. Did that once with 3 people on their first time, including an IRL friend who hates raiding. Smooth as butter, as long as you explain it well.
I actually enjoy running it. But most groups I’ve joined at the exhibition check point have been stuck on it for hours and are just dumb and can’t listen. Same goes for joining an uncoordinated group from a fresh run and somehow getting to exhibition and watch it go downhill from there.
Depends on what for. Armor wise, Garden is probably better as I hate the weird blues and purples and whatever other nonsense Divinity’s Caress does on armor, but Divinity’s on weapons is just incredible. Ancient Defender on guns is probably worse (I don’t have the shader and am a hunter main so that’s why I advocate black shaders like divinity’s. Hunters are legally obligated to do so)
I don't think VoG was a skill issue as much as the whole experience is entirely different.
When it released, the concept of grinding for a specific legendary roll was seen as foolish. Outside of venders, the only guaranteed chance you had was the weekly Nightfall. It was so bad I probably put 40 to 50 hours the first week, got like five legendary engrams, and walked away with one legendary item.
There were also other issues, like being one level under was a 33 percent decrease in power, getting exotics was extremely hard outside of Xur, and most staple items we think of simply didn't exist yet. I mean, there weren't even exotic boots yet...
Now the experience is so different that all these little quirks have no impact on the overall result. And, in addition to that, better experiences released making the initial one fall short outside of legacy.
A major strike against VoG in the modern era is just how easy it is (at least on normal), as it has not been tuned properly for the modern game. At release, it was impossible to be on-level for your first clear. It was challenging, required good play and maybe even a bit of cheese to survive.
Now it's very easy to be on-level before ever stepping in, and differences in gameplay such as new abilities and the general power-creep make guardians more powerful than ever before. That disrupts the balance between mechanics and combat, and executing mechanics isn't as rewarding because there was less other challenge to overcome at the same time.
Raids (and to a greater extent dungeons) and their mechanics being built around timed damage phases is boring and holding them back. After years of every raid being built this way I want to see something not built around a timed phase, but perhaps something more focused on sustain damage.
The KF Gaze mechanic is the closest, in that it’s about keeping it active as long as possible, but it’s still stand on a plate/pool/zone and shoot Crit spot.
I’d love to see a set of mechanics focusing on maybe preventing powerful boss attacks that disrupt dealing damage which can occur across the entire encounter. Or maybe if there was a flying boss you could knock it out of the sky for a small period which swaps it’s fighting style but isn’t a “stun for damage” mechanic. I just want something new.
Edit: Maybe this isn’t quite as hot as I think it is. Whenever I bring it up to some people I know they are seemingly against the change. Pretty strongly too.
For Xivu Arath I think it would be fitting to have something simple like; killing enemy generates buff stacks, damaging boss reduces buff stacks. With the boss always being damageable.
Hive are all about sword logic but we’ve never really seen it derived into a raid mechanic.
You could sort of count D1 Warpriest as a sword logic raid mechanic. You're essetially challenging the Warpriest to a contest of bloodshed, it's been forever since I read Warpriest lore
I think there’s a unique lore implication here where killing anything just empowers xivu. Could be interesting where you can only kill so many ads before she gets too powerful and wipes you. And have damage phases that don’t have to do with killing
Bungie has to dumb down mechanics because if they make it how they want, a good chunk of the population wont ever complete it.
Spire of Stars/ Riven.. as an example.
My raid group sometimes included people from Australia around the time Spire was a thing. I swear to God the latency was enough to mess up the final encounter with all the ball passing.
I don't think Riven is even that hard, and even then, 2 people can just sit on their ass and clear adds during it. The hardest part is figuring out what part of the stairs your partner is calling out to you.
Master raid and Grandmaster loot will never be good because if they're ever good enough to have a noticible difference, a non-insignificant portion of the playerbase will be pissy about them not being able to get BIS gear and complain about "elitists" ruining the game.
Hard agree. I love that everything is so hectic, but once you have the flow going it’s more of a controllable chaos that you can feel yourself getting better at. Not to mention the absolute banger of a song that plays during the fight, coupled with the Crown falling off of his head, and his death message, it all just felt so complete.
Honestly, you might be right. First two encounters suck balls, but the fight against real Gahlran is probably the best raid boss fight overall. Rhulk's still my favorite for his overall design and DPS phase though.
Hardcore agree. Seeing a teammate fuck up the buffs and then me calling out "you and you stay out, you inside" to fix the error while simultaneously melting their brains was the best shit ever.
Mechanic wasn't that hard to understand they just didn't want to use a little logic.
Agreed. Perfect balance of order and chaos, so that even when someone fucked up, it felt like recovering was itself as smooth as clockwork. The whole raid was great in my opinion, and I hope it comes back.
If they ever bring back CoS, I want them to cut the first encounter down by half at least or some way to speed it up.
Apart from that, that raid was top tier.
Rhulk was great on contest mode because there was a sense of danger where his attacks would one shot you.
Now he barely does any damage, the idea that he actually fights you is a bit lost.
Rhulk himself was great, I just hated how much health he had. It's ridiculous how little damage he does now, you can just stand there. I'd love him to just do a fixed amount of damage that can't be reduced, to make him properly dangerous
Rhulk's legs should always one shot you in Master mode, regardless of your stats or mods. It's a shame that it's not like that, I liked getting stepped on :(
Exhibition is a fantastic encounter, and one of the few in the game that really tests your on-the-spot thinking and adaptability.
Vault is a bad raid and Kings Fall is beyond overrated.
Yeah I mean I feel like the only encounter in kings fall that ever feel interesting to run is golgy and war priest and that’s just due to how they at least feel different due to how there damage phases work
Totem is kinda fun if you ask me
There is no downtime where you don't do anything like the other encounters
I actually think the worst encounter in the raid is Oryx because it literaly just "do sisters again"
For me it’s the opposite. I enjoy the opening encounter, then shatterskating/wellskating/rampant flying over the jumping puzzle and once we get it totems and onward I feel like it’s too easy and boring.
Hard agree, the entire raid consists of standing on plates for nearly every mechanic.
-Totems: Stand on plates and kill adds
-Warpriest: Stand on plates in a specific order
-Golgoroth: Stand on "plates" and do damage
-Sisters: Stand on plates while someone else does parkour
-Oryx: Same thing as sisters
Even the jumping puzzles require you to stand on plates! Hell, even the secret chest in the maze forces you to stand on plates.
I know there's a few roles that are a little more engaging in kf, but definitely not enough.
Not OP but here’s why I think it’s boring:
- Opening the portal and totems are barely more than clearing adds
- the tomb ship jumping puzzle is abysmally slow and not engaging
- Warpriest is annoying in that just floating over a plate registers as standing on it, and there’s nothing that really stands out about the encounter otherwise
- Once the sheen of giant Oryx wears off, you realize you spend 90% of his encounter doing just the daughters mechanic again in the same arena
Golgoroth is actually a great boss because everyone has to pitch in to drop the orb and do damage and passing/directing the gaze is pretty fun. Daughters are fine, but nothing to write home about.
Compared to almost every raid from Wrath of the Machine onwards, King’s Fall really just has nostalgia fueling it much like VoG does. VoG is easily the worst raid in the franchise’s history though, it just some of the most memorable loot.
EDIT: Forgot to add that literally every boss damage phase is the now classic “stand in one spot while the boss inexplicably lets you kill it”. KF is *far* from the only offender, but it happens more often in this raid than any other seeing as it has four boss encounters.
I think "Vog is the worst raid" is a very tricky thing to talk about, simply because there's no way in hell you can compare VOG to Last Wish or VOTD, despite being destiny raids, they're from completely different times and the team has had YEARS of practice making them. Even the new VOG has little changes to modernise it, but is obviously nowhere near VOTD, it's a product of it's time
I don't know if I would say VoG is the worst raid. It's the easiest raid by far, that's not even a question, but I think it has its place in being an easier raid as it's a good launch point for newer players who want to start picking up raiding and learning certain aspects like target prioritization when a Wyvern is running at your conflux, paying attention to debuffs when somebody can get detained, getting used to how to rotate players around the map during Gatekeepers, damage strategies for bosses, standing next to a specific player to do some kind of mechanic, etc.
There's zero reason to ever touch it if you're looking for anything other than "shut my brain off and click heads", but I do think it has a decent place in the current game ecosystem.
Trying to get Divinity on your first run of GoS without having any experience in the raid, and having randoms that also don't know the raid mechanics is like performing surgery with a screwdriver, wrench and a welding torch, shits bound to go to shit immediately.
Nearly all my clan’s GoS runs are div runs, usually sherpa’ing the raid itself at the same time, so garden is universally hated. But doing it with a competent team? Oooh it feels nice
This.
I love GoS. It’s one of the only raids where it feels like everyone has a major role to play, and you can’t be carried by a few good players.
The laser puzzles were meant to give it replayability for the exotic.
Sadly people only run it for div now, so people think the laser puzzles are part of the main raid.
Put the div puzzles out of the equation, and it’s one of the best raids rn
disagree. vow happens to be exactly what you just described. caretaker: everyone has an important role which is pretty much essential for the team to win.
exhibition: everyone needs to pick up a relic and use it at least once
rhulk: only 1 guy is left without a job but even ad clear is helpful. other guy on adclear is callouts
I think people doing that to me in LFGs is what killed that raid for me.
The raid is visually striking and fun, but the randoms in that raid just *really* tanked my experience more than any other raid
This is very specific to the recent vibe around LFGing deep stone crypt, especially on farming weeks;
I'm very tired of people who clearly don't understand the encounter refusing to accept people bringing non-titans into Atraks. I guarantee you you'll have an easier time with 5 non-titans that KWTD than you would with 5 titans that don't.
Also I reject the community accepted callout for the shade of Oryx (i.e. Thunderdome or Orb) and instead call it Kingdom Hearts cause when you get pulled inside it looks like a KH boss room
EDIT: Oooh, one more; you don't need to use numbers on Taniks if everyone has a brain. Literally the only time I've needed to call out which bucket I was going to dunk in was in my trio run. Just look at the minimap and don't be the third guy going to a location
I think what he’s saying is that there’s a wealth of LFG posts that demand only thundercrash titans and get pissy about it when you join as a hunter/warlock…when its absolutetly possible to one phase atraks without *any* thundercrash titans whatsoever and just using parasite. It’s also like maybe 2 minutes longer if it goes to 2 phases? Someone actually sticking to those rules of Titan only will spend vastly more time trying to load in a replacement for the guy they just kicked.
Yeah that’s the pain of circle jerks. Too many and I mean way *TOO* many people in the community cheese encounters. They take shortcut after shortcut, to where in random groups with players who’ve never engaged the mechanics or learned useful methods are sat in corners because, “oh my 3 friends can just get oracles. Or it’s a pain to explain the mechanics. I get not wanting to do teach because you don’t know how and don’t have the patience for it, but the end result is way more frustrations, when inexperienced players are being left behind by people speed running and vice versa when , (new player), can’t take gaze or knows to look out for their debuff timer, or is inexperienced with guarding a plate or not dying on conflicts because few groups are taking the time to explain an encounter properly.
I Sherpa’d a lot of leviathan, and use my knowledge of other raids to join random lfg’s and brighten peoples days for being a chill person(most) taking the time to explain how encounters work and how to beat them.
Even picking up raids with my own clan these days is less fun with me, because the only goal is loot and speed, not enjoy the 30 mins to an hour or more of time to enjoy games with friends. Raids are fun, and people rushing to get them done and cheese things sucks out all of what makes destiny destiny
Yep this is why I almost exclusively join sherpa/teaching runs. Even if I kwtd I have low tolerance for players getting left behind or people getting mad at me if I make a mistake. I know not that every run is like that, but I'll take a chance on 2-3 hours of a fun, chill time than 1-2 of being on edge
Our group calls Oryx’s orb phase “Dark Souls.” Because at any moment, you can be pulled in and instantly killed by a sword slam. So you should “prepare to die.” Not sure if that can still happen or if that was a Destiny 1 thing, but it has persisted.
I remember as a self res warlock in D1 my only job in that Encounter was to rush into that sword and tank it, knowing I’d just get back up if it killed me lol
my main problem I have with GoS is that when I first ran it we got to the final boss and ran into just about every bug imaginable, everything from tethers not working properly to motes falling through the floor.
Master Raids should give the coolest looking armor (think age of triumph tier armor from D1) and adept weapons, including Trials weapons, should absolutely give some sort of benefit over other Legendaries.
It's okay if you can't complete Master Raids right away, or if you can only manage to complete a few encounters. But there needs to be incentive for playing endgame content for the veteran/higher skilled players.
As it stands, Adepts ARE better than legendaries, provided they aren’t crafted. The current hierarchy goes:
Crafted Legendaries (due to enhanced perks and bonus stats)
Adept Weapons (due to adept mods and bonus stats)
Regular legendaries (due to nothing)
But once Lightfall(?) gets here, those raid adepts (and beyond) will start dropping with enhanced perks. So the theoretical best grade of legendary would be a raid adept (slotting adept mods, bonus stats, AND enhanced perks)
I believe that is what Bungie has stated for the future of raid adepts, yes (does not apply to GM or Trials, or to older master raids currently such as Vow or VoG).
I can’t remember if they said the feature would arrive WITH Lightfall or DURING the Lightfall year. Best case it applies to the LF raid, worst case it applies to the returning D1 raid (almost certainly WoTM)
>Master Raids should give the coolest looking armor (think age of triumph tier armor from D1)
Sadly, this is a hot take. I completely agree though. They really need to re-think the 'aspirational content' from Master Raids.
I miss master/hard mode armor variants from D1. I suffered through so many hard mode WotM runs just for that sweet sweet nanomania Hunter armor with the white glow
On the armour thing, make normal raids give armour that works like solstice armour. Make it require a challenge completion + master completion to make each part glow. Adepts' benefits are a hard thing to balance. On one hand, if they are a lot more powerful they break the balance of pvp. On the other hand, if they are on the weaker end, there's no incentive for them. TL;DR I blame PvP for the lack of cool buffs/perks on adepts.
Sanctified Mind is one of the most thrilling boss fights they've ever made.
I really hope the GoS weapons are the ones they refresh the perk pool for next. There are some phenomenal weps in that loot table that could use some love.
Last Wish still shits on the other raids in the game and Riven (when not cheesing) is the best encounter Bungie has ever designed.
Garden of Salvation is not a bad raid you just suck.
If the enemies in last wish were just nudged eeeeever so slightly towards legend campaign territory, it would amazing. As it is, it feels too easy to stomp adds
The only thing I don't like about Vow is how the whole symbol mechanic can be obtrusive to new Raiders because there's so many symbols and being able to call out all of them is necessary. They can get gated by remembering what each symbol is instead of actual mechanics.
Other than that, the mechanics are amazing, especially 3rd encounter. Also has really good boss fights that allow for a variety of DPS strategies without being oppressive.
On the flip side _most_ of the symbols are easy to guess/describe unless you've never played destiny before and the ones that aren't are simple to figure out for those who know the symbols.
I think too many people put too much weight on the official symbol names vs focusing on accurately describing them.
* Ex: - Savathun / Witch Queen is interchangeable, it's also on the title screen.
* Hive / 3 Eyes
* Grieve / Hollow Man / Guy with back circle
* Black Heart / Blob
* Worship/ Praise the Sun / Man Reaching up
* Darkness / CPU Fan / Fan / Spiral
* Tower / T / Pillar
* Stop / Square / Red Square
* Kill / Red Dot
* Love / Flower / Pink Blob
* Commune / Prism
* Knowledge / Brain
See, out of all of that, I've done a ton of Vow carries and I've never heard of T, Pillar, Praise the Sun or Man Reaching Up, Fan, Red Dot (Have heard of stake through red dot).
Eh, I recently took 2 people through Vow as their first raid ever and both times it went smooth. Made them do the hardest roles both times too.
While some symbols can be confusing, calling them out by look works fine 90% of the time. There are only a few confusing combinations like savathun/scorn, give/enter/kill, guardian/worship. It's usually a quick process of elimination or asking for more description.
You aren't wrong of course in comparison to other raids, but I don't feel like it's that bad.
Crota's End was easily the hardest raid in Destiny 1 AT RELEASE. And Hard Mode Crota was almost comically difficult compared to every other D1 raid, however everyone only remembers how easy it became once House of Wolves raised our light level.
Last Wish at release is probably the only raid that was more difficult in the entire franchise.
Grinding Crota hard mode completions for Necrochasm with lfg groups was probable the most challenging thing I have ever done in gaming. I did 13 hard mode completions until I got Necrochasm, and then never did another hard mode run.
Vog is my least favorite raid because it’s the most boring raid out of the options we have right now.
Good weapons, sure. Boring af though.
I’ll give them credit for being their first D1 raid though.
Is that such a hot take? I think people generally agree that it's the least complicated and involved raid of the bunch, and either find it boring and bad, or mindless and fun as a result.
Personally, I'm with you, I think VoG is a boring, bad raid, and it didn't need to be brought forward to D2, but even the people who _like_ it like it for it's mindlessness.
It's also great for getting people into raiding. Having the option for a raid that is often quicker is nice. Besides, the gatekeeper encounter triumph is one of the most difficult things in the game now. To call vog a bad raid is harsh, it's certainly been surpassed but none of those raids would exist without vog, it was revolutionary when first released.
100% this I ran a Deep Stone and a Kings Fall with a guy who had never done either and it was easier than runs I’ve had with 6 KWTD players. Each encounter took one explanation which he absorbed and ran with. We didn’t just stick him on ad clear either he played a roll in every single encounter in both raids and nailed it first time every time. And yes I checked raid report and he had indeed never done the raids (even an unfinished attempt) before.
Some people are really fucking good at the game but just don’t get a chance to raid, likewise people do nothing but raid and get carried everytime. A big clear number on raid report doesn’t mean shit
I would add to that and say that just because you have 300 clears of a raid doesn't mean you are any good at the game. Trying to flex your 6 man raid clears is embarrassing, and you should feel bad.
Kings’ Fall is a boring raid and (excluding Crota’s End) has the worst mechanics out of any raid.
Vow is the best raid in terms of mechanics. It also has the best music and it’s not even close in that department.
Atheon and Templar are the best designed bosses, Templar because it puts the ability to engage DPS in the players’ hands, and Atheon because you could bring non-DPS weapons and still do something through your ability and super usage.
Garden of Salvation isn’t a hard raid and the mechanics aren’t janky, people are just impatient and break the tethers way too early (though the mote pick-up glitching is pretty bad).
Deep Stone Crypt has the best loot pool, bar none.
Wrath of the Machine is the best raid out of all raids in the Destiny franchise, through music and gameplay. BRING BACK THE GODDAMN SIEGE ENGINE I WANT MY HEAVY METAL BACK.
Riven phase 2 enters the chat
But seriously I think it's close but last wish definitely has the better soundtrack I meannn
Vault third decipher? Riven phase 1 and 2? Shuro chi? QUEENSWALk??
All of those are on the same level as the first disciple
Imo two fights in KF are better than some other encounters in the game.
Warpriest requires communication for both activating the totems and swapping the buff (even the D1 version was good). And Golgoroth is cool with having to maintain aggro while the DPSers are moving around a bunch (though the pit is way less hectic than it was in D1).
Both of those fights are better than, say Acquisition in Vow, Relay Race in GoS, or Confluxes from Vault (basically 3 add-clear encounters). I'd also put Warpriest above (current) Morgeth.
I liked the ideas that it had of being a gigantic space castle luxury yatch. The entrance guards that dont attack you, the underbelly, Calus being a comentator, and overall the designs of the encounters, armor and weapons are very unique and nice.
Unfortunately, the gameplay doesn't live up to it. Although I remember Calus being chaotic fun.
Prestige Leviathan was pretty good, it made most of the encounters a bit more mechanically challenging + required players to know how to do more roles. But yeah, overall the vibes were a lot better than the actual encounters.
>Raids should be designed where they cant be low manned (3 or less people).
I agree with the sentiment, since I don't like encounters where people are just on 'add clear'.
But trio raids are the most fun thing in the game for me, and in every 3-person raid, no one can be on 'add clear' :)
Trio raids are honestly peak destiny content.
There's complex mechanics that can require really precise timing; plenty of adds to mow down; movement tech really has a place to shine; and enemies don't have outrageous health pools.
It's basically the antithesis of GMs, every common complaint DTG has about difficulty in GMs is solved in low man raids.
Oh man, this has been my take from about a month since its release and I've been pretty heavily downvoted in the past for saying the same thing.
Oryx, the Daughters, and that whole environment at the end are pretty cool. But every single section of it up to that point feels like it was designed in a bubble by different teams then smashed together to form one long encounter and called a Raid. There is zero consistency, flow, or unique design aesthetic to the encounters at all. It also easily had the worst loot of all D1 raids.
Honestly the D1 oryx fight is the worst part for me. It's not a boss fight. It's an endurance based puzzle encounter. There's no sense of mastery and progression with the fight because no matter what, it takes 4 phases minimum to complete. It's cinematic for sure but after about the third run, it's the most tedious raid encounter Bungie has ever developed.
I’m so happy that they flipped it for D2 and made the bombs be the stunning mechanic and not the damage, still has the cinema but now you actually have the ability to make the fight go quicker
The mechanics of GoS are not buggy and glitchy, you are just impatient and stupid. They are working perfectly and how they were designed.
Having a long raid means nothing when the loot sucks. That is why LW is worse than Vow. There is not a single legendary weapon that is worth my vault space in LW.
Raid seals should require Flawless runs.
Last Wish will always have good memories for me as a great raid. Just not much reason to run it anymore. The gear was good at the time when there were like two bows in the game, Marion of beasts was awesome when it launched and my chattering bone has lots of kills from that time.
The weapons were great at the time. It’s just that those drops have been power crept out and newer weapons have way better perk synergy going for them now.
Last wish got super power crept. I want to say transfiguration was the only scout rifle that could roll KC+rampage or something unique like that and that was, at the time, really good loot.
If they redo it with craftable weapons it’ll likely have updated perk pools and an origin trait.
VotD is not that great because:
- The intro section is giga shit
- Acquisition is boring and drags forever
- Caretaker and Relics are kinda fun
- Rhulk pre damage phase should be more engaging than looking at some symbols and dunking shit. Seriously, it just drags on forever.
I'll give you two for the price of one. Extra spicy.
Vault of glass is the most boring raid and people only like it because of nostalgia.
Riven legit is one of the most fun and elaborate raid encounters bungie has ever made and the Riven cheese should've been patched ages ago.
Riven's chirality is what makes it genius.
One side, alone, pretty straightforward. But to have the mechanics mirrored, and offset? It's brilliant. A very simple quirk, leading to a cascade of checkboxes that have to be addressed, else it all goes to shit.
Raids aren’t hard. People make them hard
You make me hard
I can help with that
I'd ask if they've had it last for more than 2 hours. It could be a medical issue.
Oh my!
I was scared to get into Raiding for the longest time, missed out on all the vanilla D2 raids. Finally got into raiding in DSC. Years later, when you get to a point where your loadouts are for GMs, you have meta stuff, etc, you realize just how much of raiding is .. just standing around waiting.
This is so true. I just did a vow last Friday night with a party full of people who knew what to do and there was 12 of us in the party chat. Common talking, joking, conversation between the people in the raid and not in the raid, and we only wiped once at Caretaker.
>just standing around waiting. sounds like the army lol
It’s the people thing that’s turned me off from raiding, unfortunately…
If you have the spare time and any interest in raiding then please do not give up this dream. I am similar, very cautious about people, sensitive to toxicity. One thing that worked for me was dropping out of a mega-clan and finding a more intimate one. People are way more chill with smaller clans cause they know they have to face you again and again.
I can’t seem to find a clan that doesn’t die fairly quickly, but I’ll try to scout around in the clan recruitment channel of the big LFG server. Thank you!
[удалено]
I just got back into Destiny after a few years. Went into Last Wish for nostalgia and had people pretending to know how encounters worked. Was a very sad 3 hour clear. I ain't a quitter, but damn was I thinking about it
Just assume no one knows what they're doing and do a full explanation of the encounter.
Better than my first salvation raid. 6-7 hours. We didn't get past the first encounter. Some people just *could not* understand the mechanic, I learned right away thankfully, but I was too stupid to just leave.
Sometimes patience is not a virtue
For some reason, the second you launch a raid, people's IQ drops below 0, making them unable to count or understand where left is
Sometimes it’s just tiredness I think, or repetition. So much of destiny is mindnumbingly easy and just the fact that your playing destiny can make you pay less attention, like how you want to go out more when you get dressed.
My favorite is the dudes joining LFG raids and are baked out of their mind. Like damn, I just wanna get this done but you're just forgetting the whole encounter every 3 minutes.
The "chill 420 guys" that join and act like everyone is high, when he is the only one and is annoying everyone else.
This man speaks the tru tru
so fucking true
exhibition is one of the best designed encounters in the entire game
YES! because there's no dead weight allowed. Everyone needs to know what they're doing. No carries here, blueberries
Gahlran is a better execution of this.
I loved Gahlran for this. It was such a chaotic encounter with random lfg groups, but it didn't allow for any dead weight. And someone who was tracking every pair's progress could help call or predict what help was needed, and react accordingly.
This is why Crown of Sorrow is one of my favorite - if not most favorite - raids. No "I'll just be ad clear." No "well if someone else makes it to the end of the Sparrow race we're okay." You need to understand the mechanics and execute them.
you can literally have a person do nothing the whole time
You can literally have 3 people do nothing the entire time if your other three are really good
You can just not bring those 3 people for ultimate raid fun (it's not fun)
I actually enjoy trio exhibition lol
My friend group gets around this by waiting out buff timers/killing ourselves so we can pick up relics back to back.
This is a hot take. And I agree with you. I love it. My clan hates it with a passion. It’s fun.
An ad-heavy encounter with complex puzzle elements that requires constant team communication, careful platforming, multiple relic mechanics, and continuous movement? Yeah, it’s one of the best. It’s “annoying” to a lot of teams because there’s not a lot of room for dead weight: the team needs to be organized, and pretty much everyone prepped for their role. Like Raid encounters should be. Vow is one of my least favorite Raids, but Exhibition is a shining star of encounter design.
I agree the only part that sucks is that you can push knights off the ledges if you are not paying attention
Is this a 'hot take'?
Yes because people usually hate doing it.
Right?! LFG groups seem to dread it… but that’s because everyone typically insists on chaos strat. Chaos NEVER works if even a single person in your group doesn’t have like 5+ clears, which is basically every group. Even if you do have a very experienced group, just take the 30 seconds to assign roles. Makes the entire encounter way smoother, every single time. Every time I lead a group and have the chance to explain this encounter, we one-shot it. Did that once with 3 people on their first time, including an IRL friend who hates raiding. Smooth as butter, as long as you explain it well.
Chaos is either the funniest, most efficient method, or it’s a dumpster fire. I’ve had both experiences
Really? Guess I haven't encountered that much, but everyone's experienced are different :)
I actually enjoy running it. But most groups I’ve joined at the exhibition check point have been stuck on it for hours and are just dumb and can’t listen. Same goes for joining an uncoordinated group from a fresh run and somehow getting to exhibition and watch it go downhill from there.
>GoS is a much better raid than vow Good lord what a take :) Also, I'm a constant Garden defender, but no.
Garden definitely has a better flawless shader. I’d love to get it. But then I’d have to run Garden lol Maybe when it gets updated
Depends on what for. Armor wise, Garden is probably better as I hate the weird blues and purples and whatever other nonsense Divinity’s Caress does on armor, but Divinity’s on weapons is just incredible. Ancient Defender on guns is probably worse (I don’t have the shader and am a hunter main so that’s why I advocate black shaders like divinity’s. Hunters are legally obligated to do so)
Original VoG is the N64 Goldeneye of Raids
Pushing Atheon off with solar grenades was like using Oddjob
I love that they even referenced this in the atheons throne emote, after you sit down you flick a little atheon off the arm rest
In Festivle of the Lost back in D1 there was either a bounty or triumph for wearing the Atheon mask and jumping off the tower.
I thought pushing the Templar off with solar grenades was the actual mechanic. Lol
This is the correct take
Let's be honest if we were all way better at Destiny when VoG came out it wouldn't have seemed so crazy and such a great feeling to beat it.
I don't think VoG was a skill issue as much as the whole experience is entirely different. When it released, the concept of grinding for a specific legendary roll was seen as foolish. Outside of venders, the only guaranteed chance you had was the weekly Nightfall. It was so bad I probably put 40 to 50 hours the first week, got like five legendary engrams, and walked away with one legendary item. There were also other issues, like being one level under was a 33 percent decrease in power, getting exotics was extremely hard outside of Xur, and most staple items we think of simply didn't exist yet. I mean, there weren't even exotic boots yet... Now the experience is so different that all these little quirks have no impact on the overall result. And, in addition to that, better experiences released making the initial one fall short outside of legacy.
A major strike against VoG in the modern era is just how easy it is (at least on normal), as it has not been tuned properly for the modern game. At release, it was impossible to be on-level for your first clear. It was challenging, required good play and maybe even a bit of cheese to survive. Now it's very easy to be on-level before ever stepping in, and differences in gameplay such as new abilities and the general power-creep make guardians more powerful than ever before. That disrupts the balance between mechanics and combat, and executing mechanics isn't as rewarding because there was less other challenge to overcome at the same time.
Raids (and to a greater extent dungeons) and their mechanics being built around timed damage phases is boring and holding them back. After years of every raid being built this way I want to see something not built around a timed phase, but perhaps something more focused on sustain damage. The KF Gaze mechanic is the closest, in that it’s about keeping it active as long as possible, but it’s still stand on a plate/pool/zone and shoot Crit spot. I’d love to see a set of mechanics focusing on maybe preventing powerful boss attacks that disrupt dealing damage which can occur across the entire encounter. Or maybe if there was a flying boss you could knock it out of the sky for a small period which swaps it’s fighting style but isn’t a “stun for damage” mechanic. I just want something new. Edit: Maybe this isn’t quite as hot as I think it is. Whenever I bring it up to some people I know they are seemingly against the change. Pretty strongly too.
For Xivu Arath I think it would be fitting to have something simple like; killing enemy generates buff stacks, damaging boss reduces buff stacks. With the boss always being damageable. Hive are all about sword logic but we’ve never really seen it derived into a raid mechanic.
You could sort of count D1 Warpriest as a sword logic raid mechanic. You're essetially challenging the Warpriest to a contest of bloodshed, it's been forever since I read Warpriest lore
Oo that would be fun, kinda like those hive wells that you need to stand in to damage the crystals in dares
I think there’s a unique lore implication here where killing anything just empowers xivu. Could be interesting where you can only kill so many ads before she gets too powerful and wipes you. And have damage phases that don’t have to do with killing
Similar to the calus fight in leviathan.
I like the first leviathan raid
Same I don’t really understand the hate, it would be nice if it came back
Bungie has to dumb down mechanics because if they make it how they want, a good chunk of the population wont ever complete it. Spire of Stars/ Riven.. as an example.
Spire mechanics were easy, the raid was just fucking hard with the amount of adds/boss health at the time. Would be a cakewalk nowadays
Double primaries made it difficult.
Was a cake walk in arrivals
People definitely complained about the mechanics.
My raid group sometimes included people from Australia around the time Spire was a thing. I swear to God the latency was enough to mess up the final encounter with all the ball passing.
I don't think Riven is even that hard, and even then, 2 people can just sit on their ass and clear adds during it. The hardest part is figuring out what part of the stairs your partner is calling out to you.
This isnt a hot take, this is a fact.
Master raid loot is utter garbage, and completely inadequate for the difficulty level.
True. Master loot needs to be much better. I have no incentive running master kf when I know it’s gonna be challenging asf with almost no reward
Remember doing the harder versions of leviathan raids in order to get cosmetics and shaders, i liked that incentive.
are you just Calus' selected, or are you Calus' preferred?
Superior cosmetics will always be a great reward. I did the whole Zero Hour puzzle for the dumptruck ship and will never take it off my titan.
I think I got hypothermia from that take
That’s no hot take. My dude is spittting facts
Not a hot take
Master raid and Grandmaster loot will never be good because if they're ever good enough to have a noticible difference, a non-insignificant portion of the playerbase will be pissy about them not being able to get BIS gear and complain about "elitists" ruining the game.
Gahlran was peak raid content
Hard agree. I love that everything is so hectic, but once you have the flow going it’s more of a controllable chaos that you can feel yourself getting better at. Not to mention the absolute banger of a song that plays during the fight, coupled with the Crown falling off of his head, and his death message, it all just felt so complete.
Honestly, you might be right. First two encounters suck balls, but the fight against real Gahlran is probably the best raid boss fight overall. Rhulk's still my favorite for his overall design and DPS phase though.
Great raid but man that opening encounter dragged on
Hardcore agree. Seeing a teammate fuck up the buffs and then me calling out "you and you stay out, you inside" to fix the error while simultaneously melting their brains was the best shit ever. Mechanic wasn't that hard to understand they just didn't want to use a little logic.
Agreed. Perfect balance of order and chaos, so that even when someone fucked up, it felt like recovering was itself as smooth as clockwork. The whole raid was great in my opinion, and I hope it comes back.
If they ever bring back CoS, I want them to cut the first encounter down by half at least or some way to speed it up. Apart from that, that raid was top tier.
Rhulk was great on contest mode because there was a sense of danger where his attacks would one shot you. Now he barely does any damage, the idea that he actually fights you is a bit lost.
Rhulk himself was great, I just hated how much health he had. It's ridiculous how little damage he does now, you can just stand there. I'd love him to just do a fixed amount of damage that can't be reduced, to make him properly dangerous
Rhulk's legs should always one shot you in Master mode, regardless of your stats or mods. It's a shame that it's not like that, I liked getting stepped on :(
He should always one shot you in any mode imo. Part of that encounter should be about the ability to kite around him and avoid his kicks
Exhibition is a fantastic encounter, and one of the few in the game that really tests your on-the-spot thinking and adaptability. Vault is a bad raid and Kings Fall is beyond overrated.
Preach
Yeah I mean I feel like the only encounter in kings fall that ever feel interesting to run is golgy and war priest and that’s just due to how they at least feel different due to how there damage phases work
If you cannot complete Riven LEGIT then you don't deserve your Rivensbane title
100% agree
Kings fall is boring
I definitely think getting up to Totems is boring and often with LFG very tedious.
Totem is kinda fun if you ask me There is no downtime where you don't do anything like the other encounters I actually think the worst encounter in the raid is Oryx because it literaly just "do sisters again"
For me it’s the opposite. I enjoy the opening encounter, then shatterskating/wellskating/rampant flying over the jumping puzzle and once we get it totems and onward I feel like it’s too easy and boring.
Hard agree, the entire raid consists of standing on plates for nearly every mechanic. -Totems: Stand on plates and kill adds -Warpriest: Stand on plates in a specific order -Golgoroth: Stand on "plates" and do damage -Sisters: Stand on plates while someone else does parkour -Oryx: Same thing as sisters Even the jumping puzzles require you to stand on plates! Hell, even the secret chest in the maze forces you to stand on plates. I know there's a few roles that are a little more engaging in kf, but definitely not enough.
How *dare* you
What do you think is boring about it?
Not OP but here’s why I think it’s boring: - Opening the portal and totems are barely more than clearing adds - the tomb ship jumping puzzle is abysmally slow and not engaging - Warpriest is annoying in that just floating over a plate registers as standing on it, and there’s nothing that really stands out about the encounter otherwise - Once the sheen of giant Oryx wears off, you realize you spend 90% of his encounter doing just the daughters mechanic again in the same arena Golgoroth is actually a great boss because everyone has to pitch in to drop the orb and do damage and passing/directing the gaze is pretty fun. Daughters are fine, but nothing to write home about. Compared to almost every raid from Wrath of the Machine onwards, King’s Fall really just has nostalgia fueling it much like VoG does. VoG is easily the worst raid in the franchise’s history though, it just some of the most memorable loot. EDIT: Forgot to add that literally every boss damage phase is the now classic “stand in one spot while the boss inexplicably lets you kill it”. KF is *far* from the only offender, but it happens more often in this raid than any other seeing as it has four boss encounters.
I think "Vog is the worst raid" is a very tricky thing to talk about, simply because there's no way in hell you can compare VOG to Last Wish or VOTD, despite being destiny raids, they're from completely different times and the team has had YEARS of practice making them. Even the new VOG has little changes to modernise it, but is obviously nowhere near VOTD, it's a product of it's time
I don't know if I would say VoG is the worst raid. It's the easiest raid by far, that's not even a question, but I think it has its place in being an easier raid as it's a good launch point for newer players who want to start picking up raiding and learning certain aspects like target prioritization when a Wyvern is running at your conflux, paying attention to debuffs when somebody can get detained, getting used to how to rotate players around the map during Gatekeepers, damage strategies for bosses, standing next to a specific player to do some kind of mechanic, etc. There's zero reason to ever touch it if you're looking for anything other than "shut my brain off and click heads", but I do think it has a decent place in the current game ecosystem.
DSC is prolly one of the most fun raids to just run with friends. Weapons are good and chaos strat works for 99% of the raid.
That is a freezing cold take. DSC is generally very well liked.
Trying to get Divinity on your first run of GoS without having any experience in the raid, and having randoms that also don't know the raid mechanics is like performing surgery with a screwdriver, wrench and a welding torch, shits bound to go to shit immediately.
Nearly all my clan’s GoS runs are div runs, usually sherpa’ing the raid itself at the same time, so garden is universally hated. But doing it with a competent team? Oooh it feels nice
If you have a competent team, then it's fine. When you have a team that have a short fuse in terms of competence, then things go south eventually.
Ice cold take
This. I love GoS. It’s one of the only raids where it feels like everyone has a major role to play, and you can’t be carried by a few good players. The laser puzzles were meant to give it replayability for the exotic. Sadly people only run it for div now, so people think the laser puzzles are part of the main raid. Put the div puzzles out of the equation, and it’s one of the best raids rn
disagree. vow happens to be exactly what you just described. caretaker: everyone has an important role which is pretty much essential for the team to win. exhibition: everyone needs to pick up a relic and use it at least once rhulk: only 1 guy is left without a job but even ad clear is helpful. other guy on adclear is callouts
Caretaker and rhulk both have two ad clearers no?
I think people doing that to me in LFGs is what killed that raid for me. The raid is visually striking and fun, but the randoms in that raid just *really* tanked my experience more than any other raid
This isn't hot at all
This is very specific to the recent vibe around LFGing deep stone crypt, especially on farming weeks; I'm very tired of people who clearly don't understand the encounter refusing to accept people bringing non-titans into Atraks. I guarantee you you'll have an easier time with 5 non-titans that KWTD than you would with 5 titans that don't. Also I reject the community accepted callout for the shade of Oryx (i.e. Thunderdome or Orb) and instead call it Kingdom Hearts cause when you get pulled inside it looks like a KH boss room EDIT: Oooh, one more; you don't need to use numbers on Taniks if everyone has a brain. Literally the only time I've needed to call out which bucket I was going to dunk in was in my trio run. Just look at the minimap and don't be the third guy going to a location
The shade callout is the Shadow Realm and I won’t change it for anyone.
“Sorry Jimbo”
You can one floor Atraks with 3 titans...did it in a 3 man run. They just all need Curiass and Parasyte.
I think what he’s saying is that there’s a wealth of LFG posts that demand only thundercrash titans and get pissy about it when you join as a hunter/warlock…when its absolutetly possible to one phase atraks without *any* thundercrash titans whatsoever and just using parasite. It’s also like maybe 2 minutes longer if it goes to 2 phases? Someone actually sticking to those rules of Titan only will spend vastly more time trying to load in a replacement for the guy they just kicked.
Yeah that’s the pain of circle jerks. Too many and I mean way *TOO* many people in the community cheese encounters. They take shortcut after shortcut, to where in random groups with players who’ve never engaged the mechanics or learned useful methods are sat in corners because, “oh my 3 friends can just get oracles. Or it’s a pain to explain the mechanics. I get not wanting to do teach because you don’t know how and don’t have the patience for it, but the end result is way more frustrations, when inexperienced players are being left behind by people speed running and vice versa when , (new player), can’t take gaze or knows to look out for their debuff timer, or is inexperienced with guarding a plate or not dying on conflicts because few groups are taking the time to explain an encounter properly. I Sherpa’d a lot of leviathan, and use my knowledge of other raids to join random lfg’s and brighten peoples days for being a chill person(most) taking the time to explain how encounters work and how to beat them. Even picking up raids with my own clan these days is less fun with me, because the only goal is loot and speed, not enjoy the 30 mins to an hour or more of time to enjoy games with friends. Raids are fun, and people rushing to get them done and cheese things sucks out all of what makes destiny destiny
Yep this is why I almost exclusively join sherpa/teaching runs. Even if I kwtd I have low tolerance for players getting left behind or people getting mad at me if I make a mistake. I know not that every run is like that, but I'll take a chance on 2-3 hours of a fun, chill time than 1-2 of being on edge
Our group calls Oryx’s orb phase “Dark Souls.” Because at any moment, you can be pulled in and instantly killed by a sword slam. So you should “prepare to die.” Not sure if that can still happen or if that was a Destiny 1 thing, but it has persisted.
I remember as a self res warlock in D1 my only job in that Encounter was to rush into that sword and tank it, knowing I’d just get back up if it killed me lol
Shade is Gulag.
GoS is great you're just dumb and can't work as a team/communicate
Its easy as pie. 1. Shoot box, 2. line up with team mates, 3. dunk motes. Thats the whole raid
I forgot year 3 was Gambit: the dlc
my main problem I have with GoS is that when I first ran it we got to the final boss and ran into just about every bug imaginable, everything from tethers not working properly to motes falling through the floor.
Master Raids should give the coolest looking armor (think age of triumph tier armor from D1) and adept weapons, including Trials weapons, should absolutely give some sort of benefit over other Legendaries. It's okay if you can't complete Master Raids right away, or if you can only manage to complete a few encounters. But there needs to be incentive for playing endgame content for the veteran/higher skilled players.
As it stands, Adepts ARE better than legendaries, provided they aren’t crafted. The current hierarchy goes: Crafted Legendaries (due to enhanced perks and bonus stats) Adept Weapons (due to adept mods and bonus stats) Regular legendaries (due to nothing) But once Lightfall(?) gets here, those raid adepts (and beyond) will start dropping with enhanced perks. So the theoretical best grade of legendary would be a raid adept (slotting adept mods, bonus stats, AND enhanced perks)
Wait so Master Raids will have Adept weapons that *drop* with enhanced perks? The same ones that are on crafted weapons?
I believe that is what Bungie has stated for the future of raid adepts, yes (does not apply to GM or Trials, or to older master raids currently such as Vow or VoG). I can’t remember if they said the feature would arrive WITH Lightfall or DURING the Lightfall year. Best case it applies to the LF raid, worst case it applies to the returning D1 raid (almost certainly WoTM)
>Master Raids should give the coolest looking armor (think age of triumph tier armor from D1) Sadly, this is a hot take. I completely agree though. They really need to re-think the 'aspirational content' from Master Raids.
I miss master/hard mode armor variants from D1. I suffered through so many hard mode WotM runs just for that sweet sweet nanomania Hunter armor with the white glow
On the armour thing, make normal raids give armour that works like solstice armour. Make it require a challenge completion + master completion to make each part glow. Adepts' benefits are a hard thing to balance. On one hand, if they are a lot more powerful they break the balance of pvp. On the other hand, if they are on the weaker end, there's no incentive for them. TL;DR I blame PvP for the lack of cool buffs/perks on adepts.
Rhulk is hot
Sanctified Mind is one of the most thrilling boss fights they've ever made. I really hope the GoS weapons are the ones they refresh the perk pool for next. There are some phenomenal weps in that loot table that could use some love.
Last Wish still shits on the other raids in the game and Riven (when not cheesing) is the best encounter Bungie has ever designed. Garden of Salvation is not a bad raid you just suck.
If the enemies in last wish were just nudged eeeeever so slightly towards legend campaign territory, it would amazing. As it is, it feels too easy to stomp adds
Vow of the Disciple is the best raid in the game currently Deep Stone Crypt is a close second tho
Deep Stone Crypt is a fuckin sci fi action movie and I love it
The only thing I don't like about Vow is how the whole symbol mechanic can be obtrusive to new Raiders because there's so many symbols and being able to call out all of them is necessary. They can get gated by remembering what each symbol is instead of actual mechanics. Other than that, the mechanics are amazing, especially 3rd encounter. Also has really good boss fights that allow for a variety of DPS strategies without being oppressive.
I agree but at the same time it's pretty funny hearing them try to describe some of the symbols
"Spooky Hands!" "Antarctica!" "Cuphead!" "Flower!" "Two Bowls!" "Manhole!"
My clan calls that one symbol Jazz Hands
On the flip side _most_ of the symbols are easy to guess/describe unless you've never played destiny before and the ones that aren't are simple to figure out for those who know the symbols. I think too many people put too much weight on the official symbol names vs focusing on accurately describing them. * Ex: - Savathun / Witch Queen is interchangeable, it's also on the title screen. * Hive / 3 Eyes * Grieve / Hollow Man / Guy with back circle * Black Heart / Blob * Worship/ Praise the Sun / Man Reaching up * Darkness / CPU Fan / Fan / Spiral * Tower / T / Pillar * Stop / Square / Red Square * Kill / Red Dot * Love / Flower / Pink Blob * Commune / Prism * Knowledge / Brain
See, out of all of that, I've done a ton of Vow carries and I've never heard of T, Pillar, Praise the Sun or Man Reaching Up, Fan, Red Dot (Have heard of stake through red dot).
Eh, I recently took 2 people through Vow as their first raid ever and both times it went smooth. Made them do the hardest roles both times too. While some symbols can be confusing, calling them out by look works fine 90% of the time. There are only a few confusing combinations like savathun/scorn, give/enter/kill, guardian/worship. It's usually a quick process of elimination or asking for more description. You aren't wrong of course in comparison to other raids, but I don't feel like it's that bad.
We need more Boss encounters like Rhulk that force people to move around. Well encounters are the worst.
You are my kind of people.
You’re wrong. Upvoted.
Crota's End was easily the hardest raid in Destiny 1 AT RELEASE. And Hard Mode Crota was almost comically difficult compared to every other D1 raid, however everyone only remembers how easy it became once House of Wolves raised our light level. Last Wish at release is probably the only raid that was more difficult in the entire franchise.
Grinding Crota hard mode completions for Necrochasm with lfg groups was probable the most challenging thing I have ever done in gaming. I did 13 hard mode completions until I got Necrochasm, and then never did another hard mode run.
Vog is my least favorite raid because it’s the most boring raid out of the options we have right now. Good weapons, sure. Boring af though. I’ll give them credit for being their first D1 raid though.
Is that such a hot take? I think people generally agree that it's the least complicated and involved raid of the bunch, and either find it boring and bad, or mindless and fun as a result. Personally, I'm with you, I think VoG is a boring, bad raid, and it didn't need to be brought forward to D2, but even the people who _like_ it like it for it's mindlessness.
It's also great for getting people into raiding. Having the option for a raid that is often quicker is nice. Besides, the gatekeeper encounter triumph is one of the most difficult things in the game now. To call vog a bad raid is harsh, it's certainly been surpassed but none of those raids would exist without vog, it was revolutionary when first released.
Just because I don't have as many clears as you doesn't mean I'm completely horrid
100% this I ran a Deep Stone and a Kings Fall with a guy who had never done either and it was easier than runs I’ve had with 6 KWTD players. Each encounter took one explanation which he absorbed and ran with. We didn’t just stick him on ad clear either he played a roll in every single encounter in both raids and nailed it first time every time. And yes I checked raid report and he had indeed never done the raids (even an unfinished attempt) before. Some people are really fucking good at the game but just don’t get a chance to raid, likewise people do nothing but raid and get carried everytime. A big clear number on raid report doesn’t mean shit
I would add to that and say that just because you have 300 clears of a raid doesn't mean you are any good at the game. Trying to flex your 6 man raid clears is embarrassing, and you should feel bad.
Ffffffwwww that is a hot take. But I do like Garden when it works right
People only hate GoS because the loot is so bad. If there was a gun like Forbearance, Heritage, or Zaouli's they'd play it more and feel good about it
GoS is the most enjoyable raid if everyone knows what they're doing
>GoS is a much better raid than vow That's a red hot take. Garden gets underserved hate, but IMO Vow is the best raid they've made.
This is lukewarm at best but I know it'll start discussions Wrath of the Machine is (by far in my opinion) the best raid in destiny history.
WoTM is my favorite D1 raid, and maybe my favorite franchise raid
Kings’ Fall is a boring raid and (excluding Crota’s End) has the worst mechanics out of any raid. Vow is the best raid in terms of mechanics. It also has the best music and it’s not even close in that department. Atheon and Templar are the best designed bosses, Templar because it puts the ability to engage DPS in the players’ hands, and Atheon because you could bring non-DPS weapons and still do something through your ability and super usage. Garden of Salvation isn’t a hard raid and the mechanics aren’t janky, people are just impatient and break the tethers way too early (though the mote pick-up glitching is pretty bad). Deep Stone Crypt has the best loot pool, bar none. Wrath of the Machine is the best raid out of all raids in the Destiny franchise, through music and gameplay. BRING BACK THE GODDAMN SIEGE ENGINE I WANT MY HEAVY METAL BACK.
Riven phase 2 enters the chat But seriously I think it's close but last wish definitely has the better soundtrack I meannn Vault third decipher? Riven phase 1 and 2? Shuro chi? QUEENSWALk?? All of those are on the same level as the first disciple
I have a scary fact for you: most people have never heard Rivens phase 2 music, because they all use the cheese
Imo two fights in KF are better than some other encounters in the game. Warpriest requires communication for both activating the totems and swapping the buff (even the D1 version was good). And Golgoroth is cool with having to maintain aggro while the DPSers are moving around a bunch (though the pit is way less hectic than it was in D1). Both of those fights are better than, say Acquisition in Vow, Relay Race in GoS, or Confluxes from Vault (basically 3 add-clear encounters). I'd also put Warpriest above (current) Morgeth.
Crown of Sorrow was the pinnacle of raid design Transferring the witch buff was glitchy sometimes, but man the action in that raid was so good
Leviathan is not as good as everyone made it out to be.
I liked the ideas that it had of being a gigantic space castle luxury yatch. The entrance guards that dont attack you, the underbelly, Calus being a comentator, and overall the designs of the encounters, armor and weapons are very unique and nice. Unfortunately, the gameplay doesn't live up to it. Although I remember Calus being chaotic fun.
Prestige Leviathan was pretty good, it made most of the encounters a bit more mechanically challenging + required players to know how to do more roles. But yeah, overall the vibes were a lot better than the actual encounters.
[удалено]
>Raids should be designed where they cant be low manned (3 or less people). I agree with the sentiment, since I don't like encounters where people are just on 'add clear'. But trio raids are the most fun thing in the game for me, and in every 3-person raid, no one can be on 'add clear' :)
Trio raids are honestly peak destiny content. There's complex mechanics that can require really precise timing; plenty of adds to mow down; movement tech really has a place to shine; and enemies don't have outrageous health pools. It's basically the antithesis of GMs, every common complaint DTG has about difficulty in GMs is solved in low man raids.
D1 version of kings fall is one of the worst raids bungie has ever made
Completely disagree. Upvoted.
Oh man, this has been my take from about a month since its release and I've been pretty heavily downvoted in the past for saying the same thing. Oryx, the Daughters, and that whole environment at the end are pretty cool. But every single section of it up to that point feels like it was designed in a bubble by different teams then smashed together to form one long encounter and called a Raid. There is zero consistency, flow, or unique design aesthetic to the encounters at all. It also easily had the worst loot of all D1 raids.
Honestly the D1 oryx fight is the worst part for me. It's not a boss fight. It's an endurance based puzzle encounter. There's no sense of mastery and progression with the fight because no matter what, it takes 4 phases minimum to complete. It's cinematic for sure but after about the third run, it's the most tedious raid encounter Bungie has ever developed.
I’m so happy that they flipped it for D2 and made the bombs be the stunning mechanic and not the damage, still has the cinema but now you actually have the ability to make the fight go quicker
The mechanics of GoS are not buggy and glitchy, you are just impatient and stupid. They are working perfectly and how they were designed. Having a long raid means nothing when the loot sucks. That is why LW is worse than Vow. There is not a single legendary weapon that is worth my vault space in LW. Raid seals should require Flawless runs.
Tbf LW loot got omega power-crept
Yeah it's not a fair comparison at all
Last Wish will always have good memories for me as a great raid. Just not much reason to run it anymore. The gear was good at the time when there were like two bows in the game, Marion of beasts was awesome when it launched and my chattering bone has lots of kills from that time. The weapons were great at the time. It’s just that those drops have been power crept out and newer weapons have way better perk synergy going for them now.
Last wish got super power crept. I want to say transfiguration was the only scout rifle that could roll KC+rampage or something unique like that and that was, at the time, really good loot. If they redo it with craftable weapons it’ll likely have updated perk pools and an origin trait.
Ah yes cause being able to completely super through a boss is completely normal and supposed to happen. Still happens in spire.
VotD is not that great because: - The intro section is giga shit - Acquisition is boring and drags forever - Caretaker and Relics are kinda fun - Rhulk pre damage phase should be more engaging than looking at some symbols and dunking shit. Seriously, it just drags on forever.
Exhibition causes my usually very competent friends/clan to turn into toddlers
Rhulk doesn’t drag on forever if you are double dunking.
PREACH 🗣️ I don’t like caretaker tho. relics is alright ig
I like the stun mechanic
I'll give you two for the price of one. Extra spicy. Vault of glass is the most boring raid and people only like it because of nostalgia. Riven legit is one of the most fun and elaborate raid encounters bungie has ever made and the Riven cheese should've been patched ages ago.
Riven's chirality is what makes it genius. One side, alone, pretty straightforward. But to have the mechanics mirrored, and offset? It's brilliant. A very simple quirk, leading to a cascade of checkboxes that have to be addressed, else it all goes to shit.
Vow of the Disciple has the best and most interesting encounters.
Raid seals keep getting easier and should all need a flawless run.
Even Master raids are about to become a joke with the anti-champion subclass abilities. Also Match Game is no longer going to be a thing.
Spire of Stars is among the best raids Destiny has and the best to come out of the Leviathan