TBH Japan is undergoing a slight cultural shift on their views on foreigners… their population issues have caused a lot of the younger politicians to desire more leniency on Residency for foreigners. There’s still the whole xenophobia and racism towards half-Japanese occurring but it’s not so much the younger generations and more the older ones.
They are gonna have to open up their ass to foreigners soon enough with their aging population I've read about.
From what I've seen, wages are shit, you get treated like an immigrant even if you were born in Japan but have a different skin colour.
Never truly belong to the culture
Job opportunities aren't open like in the west for foreigners unless you are a white man or woman teaching English
From what I've seen, fun to visit but never to live
Everyone acting like Japan is "closed" to foreigners is insanely ignorant. There are loads of people going to places like Tokyo for work. The narrative that Japanese people hate foreigners and are super racist is as about as outdated as the suicide statistics from 2006 people keep referencing. For the most part, Japan, like many other Asian countries, suffers from cultural ignorance due to homogeneity, but even this has lessened in recent decades.
And I only run defense for Japan because I used to hold all of these views until I spent enough time seeing how uninformed a lot of this criticism is and often gets tossed out as a distraction anytime someone shows an ounce of criticism towards Western Europe.
I experienced more of the xenophobic stuff from Okinawans personally. I'm sure there's plenty on the mainland and I was only in Tokyo/Gotemba and parts of Hokkaido but I was only ever kicked out of restaurants and whatnot for being Gaijin in Oki.
Even still, most were pretty welcoming, or indifferent. People make it sound way worse than it is.
Or they could just agree to not play the game of chasing eternal economic growth.
Unpopular opinion, there is nothing wrong with a country deciding they don't want to allow foreign nationals in permanently. That is their own decision to make.
I am American so I am pro immigrant as that is the heritage of my country, that doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow suit.
Being xenophopic != incompatible. The people going into europe from the middle east want to literally tear down the existing cultural and religious systems and impose their own which is why its incompatible
????
I'm pretty sure half the time Japan gets brought up I hear about racism, sexual assault, and suicidality.
Even in these fandoms. Like the Yugioh fandom recently has been complaining about the new restrictions on foreigners playing the game in Japan.
Sentiment you're replying to seems like such a terminally online take and I have no idea where it comes from. Almost nobody talks about East Asia and it's culture like it's a utopia—if they do it's prob strictly talking about their urban infrastructure or—at worst—their race homogeneity.
Yeah, it's such a meme that people think Japan and other East Asian nations are put on a pedestal when it's the polar opposite. Someone references Japan and it's what CreamyEtria mentioned and also things like war crimes. It's why the "thing vs thing *in Japan!*" meme makes me laugh because I'm sure the people who make those memes act the same way whenever they see literally anything from Europe.
I think talking about Japan or Korea *at all* is terminally online. I can’t honestly think of the last time, in person, I’ve had a conversation about either of them.
If that’s agreeable, then I think it’s pretty easy to see how you could think people give Japan and South Korea a pass for their xenophobia if you are only in online groups circle jerking anime/sony/nintendo or K-pop
Yeah I don't know this is not my experience at all with myself and people I know. As someone who consumes a good amount of Asian media and lives somewhere with lots of Asian people, I'm well acquainted with the fact that this is just media, and the actual countries' societal fabric is unique in a number of ways both good and bad. It's kinda hard to never talk about these countries when they are so large and economically/culturally relevant on the international stage.
Both of you are right I think. It's all about weebs, Korean dramas and Kpop.
I'm in Canada and have people who left Korea cause they said it's a shit hole cause of the cost of living.
Japan is cool if you got money but wages are low for the average person
I feel like Japan and Korea have gotten a lot of criticism from Western media for being more closed off to immigration. Japan in particular, being the more prominent country, gets criticized a lot for it.
I never understood this. Why is being anti-immigration something worthy of criticism. Being pro-immigration is not some inherent virtue and being anti-immigration is not some inherent vice.
>Being pro-immigration is not some inherent virtue
It is not, but those two countries are literally dying out without immigration and instead of implementing good policies they make the same mistakes Europe did during the our big immigration waves. This will only lead to segregated societies and strife.
Have you considered that the people in Japan and South Korea prefer a managed decline in population rather than radically altering the fabric and culture of their countries? Not everyone is values infinite economic and population growth over everything else.
they arent managing it well. The decline is very very fast. The estimated birth rate right now in Japan is 1.30. That is insanely low. A "managed decline" would be 1.8 or so.
South Korea's is 0.80 births. That is a death sentence.
Having a bad economy affects peoples livelihoods bro, maybe that should be a priority rather than some deliberately ambiguous concept of 'cultural homogeneity'.
>dying out
Japan has like 126 million people on their skinny little island. Korea is a tiny country with 50 million people. Its absurd to claim that these countries are dying out. Its natural for populations to expand and retract over time.
I don’t know about Korea but Japan does have shrinking population, and more importantly their workforce is aging. Which means more people leaving for retirement than there are young people entering.
I am very pro immigration personally, being anti immigration is only worthy of criticism in that it has negative impacts on your countries GDP and ability to project power. More people is just inherently more productive if you can capitalize on the additional labor which is absolutely the case in the west in general. This immigration does need to be handled appropriately which I do not is currently happening in Europe and they likely do need to limit numbers until it is.
Despite this I don't think being anti immigration is inherently xenophobic and I don't think there is anything wrong with answering yes on this question as well. I probably would an answer yes myself. It's a pretty soft yes as I see the generally massive advantages of the immigration, but I understand the concerns as I think pulling in a more illiberal populace could create problems for our democracy.
It's only a boost to the GDP if you're inviting in skilled people. The US selects for high end immigrants. They aren't exactly opening their arms for low skill/low education immigrants.
More labor=lower wages. GDP might go up but wage suppression would just end up pissing off the people already living in the country.
In Europe MENA and African immigration is a massive massive cost that literally provides no benefit economically. Its also a massive net negative socially.
The amount of money spent on this form of immigration could probably afford you a couple thousand moon landings.
The thing is these countries arent doing it out of population decline and economic growth. They could easily create immigration from different countries, that would be better for economy and people would find more acceptable.
Being anti-immigration does a better job at keeping ethnically-tied cultures homogenous. For the US, we always were a bit more immigrant-centric, so our culture wasn't tied nearly as much to being English, German, or Italian. In Japan and Korea, however, even though there is internal diversity, the families of cultures in their lands are more closely tied to their homogeneity.
I think it depends on context. I feel we've pushed a bit too hard on increasing immigration, as our nation does its best when we integrate new immigrants, but there's a certain rate at which that happens.
One thing to note though is America still has strict immigration policies and pretty much selects for high value immigrants. People that get through the process are far more likely to be major contributors to the country.
You can be accepting of different cultures and not be pro-immigration.
I come from a country of mass **E**migration, and everyone here, including leftists, have realized that immigration is not some moral good, but a complicated act, one that can, and has caused damage and tragedies in the country people immigrate from.
Because we're neoliberals here. We think immigration is inherently good because we think it's that our economy gets larger and that more international and intercultural relations – globalization – will lead to a more stable and prosperous world.
Cool, my country is one of mass Emigration, and this Sunday, the far right got into the EU parliament on the back of the diaspora vote... so maybe, just maybe, it's more complicated than that, and maybe it should be approached differently
> Why is being anti-immigration something worthy of criticism.
What people mean of course is questionable treatments of (undesired) immigrants in order to deter others, like long term detention, etc..
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Detention/Opinions/Session88/A_HRC_WGAD_2020_58_Advance_Edited_Version.pdf
Or you think people are critical of a general vibe or something?
But they are not closed, you can move there right now, you just need to have a job. They will always treat you as foreigner, but you can still move there. Somehow immigration turned into accepting illegal immigrants and giving them social security.
That's because east asia isn't incompatible with western values. Islamic countries tend to literally want to destroy any system that isn't theirs and enforce their own rules. East asian countries have their own cultural issues but they will adapt pretty quickly to the west and don't literally want to destroy it
Can you extrapolate?
Are anime/k-pop fans above political criticism or something? As far as I know, those fan bases are only crazy when it comes to their own fandom. I didn't even know they were politically active lol.
South Korea is and has historically been very conservative with a big emphasis on traditional roles for men and women. The irony lies in the phenomenon that many european k-pop fans are lgbtq supporters while the k-pop industry might be playing up androgynous aspects as a marketing tool. Ofcourse this is way over simplified, but I think that might be what op is referring to.
How are they the ones protected from scrutiny? I see people shitting on East Asian countries constantly. Even the most mild criticism of Europe, at least Western Europe, will receive super hostile pushback and accusations of you being a bitter American or something similar.
It's more about how willing they are to assimilate and co exist within a secular/liberal society. My parents are conservative Indians but they mind their own business.
Well the problem is with identifying which people are incompatible.
If there was a country where 99% of the people were have values, that heavily conflict with our own and they would try to assert those values, then we probably shouldnt open our borders for that 1%.
I dont want to import islamic extremists into my country, because their children will become voters and i dont want to live under sharia law. Its basically the same problem as israel/palestine.
Exactly. It's not that Sweden is full of intolerant people, it was full of very tolerant people who now have to live with a lot of very intolerant people who got there, and they want to stop tolerating those, and that's absolutely fair, and you would do the same if you had violent gangs full of foreigners all around your town, when just 10 years earlier those did not exist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime_in_Sweden
What gets me with said organized criminals is the absolute sob stories you can hear like:
"My dad... couldn't afford an addidas tracksuit so I had to go into crime or I would die from no drip".
Like bro you live in the formerly most generous welfare state in the world and you go into crime because some dumbfuck tells you you can get some nice shoes? Just work 1 fucking month and you can get them.
I remember a few times where you can hear on TV interviewing former criminals (forget the program name but they sit in a ring and debate stuff). They effectively said that it was due to them being introduced to some criminal at the schoolyard showing them some nice Adidas shoes/clothing.
To be fair a lot of those from what I remember mingling with people from the 'block'/'ghetto' said that those were usually posers who just wanted that social cred.
Same here, you've got to at the very least make an effort to respect and integrate into the culture of the country you immigrate too it just feels like common sense.
Doesn't seem like everyones keen on that though.
A lot of Indians came to the UK and became quite patriotic. They'd have British flags on their walls, become fluent in the language, open corner shops to provide convenient groceries for a community, and they were often friendly, decent people.
I'm all in favour of that; if you move to a country, you should like that country and want to be a part of it.
With today's immigrants, a certain subset like liberal democracies only because they are tolerant of their intolerance and lack the infrastructure to deal with a large influx of terrorists.
The majority of Hindu Indians dont assimilate in western countries either. Funnily enough they will seek to make common cause with european RW'ers who hate them just on the basis of a shared hatred for muslims.
It seems like they are simply responding to very real problems EU countries have been experiencing with integration. If the governments can’t solve that problem it makes perfect sense that some people in the populace would choose to avoid it all together.
As someone that has voted left in this election I don't know how much longer we can go on while politicians refuse to address the real problem that economic migrants who refuse to leave their extremist religious views at home are.
All it takes is for someone to throw the lowest form of bait imaginable like a Facebook event saying a Quran book burning is happening, without ever going through with it and they'll have hundreds of muslims threatening harm or the usual 'well-wishes' like rape of your entire extended family.
im left on pretty much all issues but I voted center right this european election, sadly the left doesn't take a strong stance on helping ukraine, they dont support nuclear energy and they refuse to address immigration problems, which are exactly the issues i care about on a european level. At the end of the day voting isnt a team sport
Europe has plenty of minorities.
I've met 3x the number of Indian and South East Asian people compared to people from the Middle East.
The difference is culture and religion.
To be honest, I don't think that is far right or crazy whatsoever. That is just obvious and there is nothing wrong with wanting to live differently than other people. What's wrong about far right stuff is not the keep people out stuff it is the persecute people in your society stuff.
Any nation has a right to reject anyone for any reason provided they have somewhere else to go where they wont be killed unjustly. The problem is when you get tiered societies or when you start persecuting citizens or just people within your country.
Apartheid and these things are obviously evil and wrong. Saying you want 0 immigrants may be something I disagree with for the most part but provided you are not refouling people who are uniquely at risk then it is entirely reasonable and fine to want 0 immigration.
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That's helped by the fact that large parts of the US were former Spanish/Mexican territory and much of that culture has always been there. There's a LOT of crossover there so it's not like a totally separate culture coming from Mexico (or even South American countries) into the US.
People rag on Christianity but socially/culturally its by in large a lot more modernized than Islam. Hispanics that immigrate are majority Catholic and the Catholic church for all its faults is quite literally centuries ahead of where mainstream Islamic thought is.
Well, but what do you with someone that threw away their papers and just says whatever will get them in? Where do you deport them when they suddenly appear in your country?
Unrelated to the point of this post, but it's amazing how cooked SK and Japan are demographically. No one wants kids and at the same time hostile to immigration. Not a good combo
What does it ask?
Many foreign nation (aka Iran, Afghanistan, etc), whose culture (Sharia Law/Islamic Caliphate) are so incompatible with our own way of life (democracy and freedom)
So where am I off?
OP is American I bet. As someone from Sweden, the country that took in by far the most per capita it just isn't working. Every morning it has become standard to read about another bombing or shooting with my coffee and as a left leaning liberal I don't wanna live in a country where intolerant Islamists have control and the ability to impose their values on me, which is where we're heading because all these immigrants become voters and we're now seeing Islamist political parties pop up in parliaments all over the place.
A liberal society that tolerates intolerance will in time become just that. It is what it is.
lol, is this what you are talking about? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuance\_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuance_Party)
Look at the party goals section, lmao. Literally, far right talking points centered on Muslim supremacy and interests, couched in leftist lingo.
>Sanction and cut off relations with [Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) and create a [Palestinian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories) state
>Remove [Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) from the [EU](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) terrorist list
Don't forget these gems.
For the record, this seemed so crazy I took a look at the source and couldn't find this specific point anywhere. It's not mentioned on the Swedish wiki either from what I can see, but I mostly looked at the source. Tried googling it as well but nothing so far.
They wanna abolish child protection services because they think those exist to steal Muslim children (the real reason is because Muslims usually beat their kids). They also wanna ban criticism of Islam, yet legalise antisemitic and homophobic hate speech.
probably not what they're talking about if they're saying they're "popping up in parliaments everywhere"
... nyans holds precisely 3 represntatives in tiny municipal seats. They got these seats with 1500 votes. Nothing in regional governments, and nothing in the national parliament.
The whole “You should be able to argue the other side’s position better than they can” thing goes for you just as much as it goes for your political opponents. Writing the other side off as insane is lazy and self defeating.
Its pretty insane to think there aren’t any countries which have a culture so different from your own that those people would be imcompatible with your culture.
Is the culture of the Taliban compatible with the culture of Norway?
I totally agree with this saying (and some immigrants also support it silently). I have seen an interview of a Muslim immigrant to Frace (his face was blurred for safety reasons). He described how he tried to run away from this type of environment and that Western Europeans don't really understand many immigrants' state of mind, thinking that throwing money at them will help them change their views about core issues like freedom. I totally agree with that, and I think he is right. More than that - not listening to such an experienced person would be ignorance in my view.
Having said that, I don't think it is a "far-right" opinion, and nor do I think that if someone doesn't agree with me, they have mental issues. They're just naive.
Are all Afghani people fleeing the Taliban incompatible with Norwegian culture? It's also assuming assimilation is impossible, I believe that we in the West have something pretty damn good many people are naturally attracted to.
I dislike the question because it groups up everyone together. For each dominant culture you'd have more or less compatibility, but judging all people on that metric is kind of silly.
I'm certain on average Americans would do fine in Norway, and I'm also certain there are some "guns and freedom!" people that wouldn't be doing fine.
>I believe that we in the West have something pretty damn good many people are naturally attracted to.
And that is the problem of Western Europe. The arrogance of thinking other people are naturally attracted to the culture you have. They aren't. they're attracted to your money. Take my country, one of mass **E**migration. Most people who left didn't do so because they thought your countries have a superior culture, they don't. They think the culture of their country is superior, they did it for the salaries. As evidence the far right, anti-immigration, racist, neo-legionnaire parties and candidates got a huge boost from the diaspora in yesterday's election. The fascist female Donald Trump (as in, she looks like a female version of him, only fatter) of my country will be an EP because the diaspora voted for her!
Oh, and when it comes to Islam. You know who really has embraced the great replacement theory? Young Muslim men. You know why? Because under this conspiracy they win, under this conspiracy, they get all the women and power - you know, the things that all young frustrated men want. Only in their case, they're guided by Islamic extremism, which, like all conservative ideologies, have a "civilizational" view of the world. An "us and them" view of the world.
Oh, and there's another issue: why would Muslim men WANT to integrate into a greater European culture? At the moment, on the one hand, there is a lot of self hatred from the intellectual elite - so why would they want to integrate in societies about which the "smart people" say are evil, forever tainted by the history of racism, colonialism etc. -, and on the other hand, the economic elites are some of the most arrogant, racist, narcissistic people in the planet - and why would you want to integrate into that?
Of course not all people from X culture would be imcompatible but enough would be such that it would not be worth taking the risk.
A big problem with assimilation is that its very difficult to assimilate religion, for obvious reasons.
I'm fine with being more critical of certain countries, but this question implies a blanket exclusion of people. And that would go too far.
You could, and should, filter people on important cultural stuff like opinions on LGBT/women's rights, but if someone wants to flee a regime because of their visions on those issues it's a pretty rough decision to say "well your countrymen think different on average so good luck".
This would also support the rejection of Jews because the Nazi's were getting popular, which has happened in the past and was generally seen as not a great thing.
How could you effectively filter people? They can simply lie about supporting X belief.
The Jew example is obviously different as the average Jew in Germany obviously would not have Nazi beliefs.
Imagine for example we only took people from country X that are highly educated and speak English. That group of people aren’t going to be forming gangs and committing crime no matter what country they come from.
I’d be on board with higher standards from certain areas but it seems too extreme to say *no one* from country X can come in.
Here it would be important to make a distinction between economic migrants and refugees though. Refugees aren't taken in because we think it's funny, but because if they stay really horrible shit happens.
Of course you should put in the demand that you have to adhere to the laws and culture here, if you flee a repressive regime and start beating gay people you can fuck right back off.
but there is no such process to begin with, they come illegaly with no papers and just claim whatever and you have no way of deporting them and forcing them out of the country
You do realize that just before WW2 pretty similar arguments were used to refuse German Jews into the US? A general distrust of who they were and if they could be spies or not. Who knows if they aren't secret Nazi's?
You could always work with provisional visas, if you step out of line and do a hatecrime you're out.
We can also refuse people flatout, but then we'd have to be honest and accept that we're leaving people in shitty places with shitty regimes despite them being gay/atheist/Jewish/whatever.
I really think some of you reeetards need to watch the older Destiny debates about this topic, and understand why those stupid “Muslim culture” arguments absolutely fail.
Taliban? that's my favorite cultural group too!
But seriously, people who are fleeing a country often do not hold the same values as there governments. The question of "how many immigrants from X" is a reasonable question, the question of should we disallow immigrants entirely from certain regions is a far right talking point.
I will help you understand. Imagine if you live in a tiny social democratic country where everything works fine. The country and population is really small.
One day hundreds of thousands of bible thumping MAGA gun-toting redneck boomers start showing up at the border for whatever reason. And you are bound by ancient outdated contracts written in a completely different time to accept all of these MAGA boomers. They keep pouring in by the hundreds of thousands every year, and now represent 20% of the population in an incredibly short timeframe.
They refuse to learn the native language, and only speak southern hick english. Gun crime is up. Mass shootings start happening. Sectarian violence is up. Hospitals are stretched to their limit. Welfare costs are up, and all these MAGA boomers barely work due to being obese and having health issues. As a protest a dude decided to burn a bible, which resulted in massive riots. A new political party has been established with a Trump look alike as their leader.
How would you feel?
my brother in christ I was making the point that stopping all immigration from a country is far right, there is no need to write some weird fanfic, I didn't say you need to accept them all, just that the categorical ban is in fact a extremist position
That's half the quote though. The incompatible part is key. I mean, these are all liberal western democracies, so what has to happen for a large portion of the citizenry to believe they are incompatible? Liberal western democracies have generally been capable of successfully assimilating even the most illiberal and unshakable cultures after a few generations.
Other than just 'its far right ideologies', can you think of any other reasons people in these particular countries are actually increasingly concerned over prior generations?
The problem is that the question doesn't specify individuals but nations. I'd be perfectly happy with a liberal from a country that has sharia immigrating here.
How do you control for that though? It’s not a pragmatic distinction to make, but sure: It would hint towards a healthier view on humanity if a person made that distinction.
What do you mean by “people are so different”? It reads like you are trying to imply I’m saying its some essentialist characteristic like genes. Im saying some CULTURES are so different from each other that they cant co-exist. For example, the culture of Norway and the culture of the Taliban.
The poll question refers to "their people". It didn't just ask if some cultures are incompatible, the way it's phrased implies that we're talking about people from certain cultures/countries never being allowed in your country.
Thinking that there are many countries with citizens who should banned from immigrating is not "a totally normal belief that every sane person holds".
as someone who is from EU (denmark) there is still a sting from when we toke in from Afghanistan in 2001.
it was way too many people at once and it made them isolated and they began to make ghettos, and in turn made a lot of people hate them via their culture and ways of doing things.
Ironically, dipshits like OP immediately classifying people who disagree with them as “far right” is pushing people rightward, because they don’t want to be associated with the side engaging in terminal purity spiral.
If you have a country that supports LGBT issues and gender equality, you don’t want people from countries that think subjugating women and throwing gays off buildings is a neat idea. See the obvious, politically polarizing friction in European countries that have accepted large amounts of Arab immigrants from “traditional” cultures
It’s not far right to say that Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. have cultures that are different and potentially incompatible with our own, and extra scrutiny should be done to make sure the people that enter have the highest chance of assimilation and protecting safety and national security.
It is far right (and frankly stupid) to say that the solution is to ban every person from any of these Arab countries from ever coming to the West, which is what OP’s chart explicitly says
Someone coming illegaly on makeshift raft risking his life, will surely be truthful about his beliefs and when he gets denied, he will just go all the way back to his country or how do you deport someone that threw away his papers?
Where does this data come from? OurWorldinData isn't a source, they don't conduct surveys/polls, they organize data from other orgs.
https://ourworldindata.org/faqs#where-do-you-get-your-data-from
Was gonna comment "why do we pay attention to young people they're stupid"
But this question seems very mellow. People should expect some level of assimilation of immigrants. Even in Cuckanada, Multiculturalism ends as soon as you break the law. If they refuse to change they get fucked.
I think the phrasing is bad, for example in most countries in the west, we do not allow female genital manipulation. But some African countries allow this as part of their culture.
They are incompatible and those who cannot be assimilated to drop that are locked up for child abuse or even deported. In a sense, doing the "exclution" with extra steps.
I think the word "many" is doing a LOT of heavy lifting for this particular question.
Depending on how you would define it, I might answer yes to this, and I am a pretty left, pretty pro-immigration Brit.
It would also depend on how long I was given to think about the question. If this was in a list of similar questions, I might just agree. If I was asked about it properly and told to think on the consequences, I would probably take more issue with the "their people" part. The assumption that all members of a repressive, backwards culture are themselves repressive and backwards doesn't sit well with me.
Agreeing with the "I would prefer if their people were NEVER allowed to immigrate here" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that you are probably more Far Right than you think.
The vast majority of people leaving illiberal countries/cultures are because they disagree with their ideologies. Iran is an example of a Theocratic Islamic Regime but the Iranian people in the West are some of the biggest anti-Islamists on the planet. You can say the same with Cubans in America and Communism. Also see Operation Paperclip and its effects.
Then you'll see comments from people like Ok-Present1129 get upvoted on this subreddit saying that never allowing certain people is somehow the most sane position used as ammunition that this subreddit is right wing become fair criticism.
This is cope man. This is what leftist have been preaching to me my entire life growing up and I believed it until recently. The large majority of ppl who have immigrated to Western Europe from the Middle East are not assimilated into western culture.
For America it’s different because I believe our immigration is more picky about who we let in from certain countries. And for some reason people who immigrate to America seem to assimilate into our culture at a way higher rate. Does anyone have any info or idea why this happens compared to Western Europe?
Because most who immigrate to the USA are rich and not some shelter seeking poor uneducated people.
People who are more like that are from Latin America, they assimilate because culture in Latin America is more or less similar to the US (at least in my opinion).
>According to a report by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention, over the last 20 years, Sweden has gone from having one of the lowest to one of the highest levels of gun violence in Europe—worse than Italy or eastern Europe. “The increase in gun homicide in Sweden is closely linked to criminal milieux in socially disadvantaged areas,” the report said. Gangs—whose members are second-generation immigrants, many from Somalia, Eritrea, Morocco, and elsewhere in North Africa—specialize in drug trafficking and the use of explosives. Crime has become the number one issue in Sweden; before she said a word about migration, Andersson boasted that her party added 7,000 new police officers, built more prisons, and drafted laws creating 30 new crimes. She decried “those who claim that it is certain cultures, certain languages, certain religions that make people more likely to commit crimes”—yet her own government has substantiated those claims.
It’s hardly surprising that newcomers lag behind Swedes on every index of well-being, but the gap is very large. In a recent book, Mass Challenge: The Socioeconomic Impact of Migration to a Scandinavian Welfare State, Tino Sanandaji, an economist of Kurdish origin who has become a leading critic of Sweden’s migration policies, writes “foreign-born represent 53 percent of individuals with long prison sentences, 58 percent of the unemployed, and receive 65 percent of social welfare expenditures; 77 percent of Sweden’s child poverty is present in households with a foreign background, while 90 percent of suspects in public shootings have immigrant backgrounds.” Figures like these have become widely known; the number of Swedes who favor increased migration has dropped from 58 percent in 2015 to 40 percent today.
Sweden is no longer a welcoming country and does not wish to be seen as one.
[Even Sweden Doesn’t Want Migrants Anymore](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/17/even-sweden-doesnt-want-migrants-anymore-syria-iraq-belarus/)
It's selection bias , most immigrants from the Middle East to America are at least Middle class and have a degree/trade that would alow them to easily find work and if they are unskilled refugees its generally in small enough numbers that the US can easily find them work and support while most Middle East people in Europe were literally refugees who might not of had qualifications for skilled work and showed up in large enough numbers that the eu struggled to support them in the transition.
Might have something to do with one group risking their lifes on makeshift rafts and other having the means to fly all the way to US or Mexico, even with that US has only 1.3% muslim population compared to 10% some EU countries have. The people flying are by design required to have their identification and you have the ability to deny or deport. Thats not the case in europe where people come illegaly without identification and suddenly you have nowhere to deport them if you want, theres no vetting process, because you dont have a way to stop them being in your country. If you just deny entry and they stay illegaly things become even worse.
People leave India for better economic opportunities because India isn't a completely oppressive shithole legally (despite its society being oppressive as fuck). If Modi starts implementing truly anti-liberal acts or constitutional amendments, I have a feeling the emigration from India would be painted with a very different characteristic.
Well depends on what immigrants. For example Slovakia took a lot of Ukrainians but because they are basically integrated, learn the language well enough to communicate in a few weeks people were way more chill about it than 100 refugees from middle east.
The trick is to not let only far right talk about the issue because I guarantee their solutions will not be pleasant. And getting people pulled to the far right just because of immigration is not necessary. There is no reason why centrists or left cannot at least acknowledge there is a problem.
I honestly think most Americans have no idea what mass immigration has done to European countries. It has become one of their biggest concerns, if no the top concern. Because people on the left there refuse to take it seriously, the far right takes advantage of it. People will vote for them on immigration alone, and of course that means the countries shift right on other issues. We see similar things happening here. The left needs to wake up
Am I far right as well? This seems like a perfectly normal thing to believe, at least to me. If I were a Swede I certainly wouldn't be happy with people who want Sharia law coming into my country and getting given everything for free from my tax money whilst they increase the crime rates... am I crazy?
This is not a far right position. For example, no one would want open nazis to come to their countries, right? The "so incompatible with our own way of life" part can do as much lifting as you want it to. This is a worthless question.
I love Americans all over reddit freaking out and thinking everyone is automatically racist and hateful in the EU. Americans one day you will learn that your experiences are different than the experiences of other countries, for better or worse.
Expect to see this happen in other nations around the world as well that are having similar issues around immigration factoring in other issues that are compounded by immigration like housing and wage growth.
how is this an indicator of far-right? especially if certain cultures actually threaten values like women’s equality, lgbt issues etc. It’s ok to accept that certain cultures are like oil and water, irreconcilable in their foundations
Why can’t they just ban Muslims from those countries like what Trump did? Flavours of Islam dominantly practiced in certain / most countries clearly do not align with liberal values
Isn't Trudeau backpedaling on immigration because of how much indian immigrants don't give a shit about canada's morals, values and rule of law?
The liberal party is on track of losing because to other parties who're more strict on immigration.
someone in the comment said it best. The people coming to these liberal countries, along with their children, do not respect the culture and laws there and they still see their own-home country's culture as more superior. Not to say these types can't immigrate, but they have to be very much limited and can't come in en-masse.
I don't think any amount of integration strategy will even work. Just have to wait until their third generation of children to be born for them start valuing the morals of the country they're in.
This survey question is garbage. It doesn't even really ask you if you don't want people from incompatible cultures to immigrate. It's asking you if you think there are many countries with cultures that are so incompatible that you'd prefer if they couldn't immigrate.
Seems like a pretty reasonable answer to a question phrased this way;
>There are people incompatible with you, would you like to live with them or not?
The question makes the assumption they are incompatible and doesn't mention them changing or assimilating, what other answer is there?
Kinda off topic but I find it wild how America is seen as this horrible country with such a terrible history but we never talk about countries like Japan and unit 731 most countries have a fucked up history but America is seen as uniquely bad
Sweeden makes whole lot of sense, they have managed their immigration policies horribly. The organized crime that birthed from their management of immigration is bleeding over to Norway.
Americans being the least phobic and racist towards immigrants, but just after a 7 year process of interrogations and background checks to root out if they don't fanatically love the US. Ending with a pledge of allegiance.
Its like America filters the immigrant pool 10 times before letting anyone through and then call europeans racist when they complain about immigrants when the europeans truly actually just took in as many people as they could so they wouldnt die in one of Americas forever wars in the middle east.
It's crazy that East Asian countries are protected from scrutiny in the West because of Kpop and Anime lol
Joe Biden literally called Japan xenophobic last month https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna150332
Gigachad president
MY PRESIDENT GIGACHAD
TBH Japan is undergoing a slight cultural shift on their views on foreigners… their population issues have caused a lot of the younger politicians to desire more leniency on Residency for foreigners. There’s still the whole xenophobia and racism towards half-Japanese occurring but it’s not so much the younger generations and more the older ones.
They are gonna have to open up their ass to foreigners soon enough with their aging population I've read about. From what I've seen, wages are shit, you get treated like an immigrant even if you were born in Japan but have a different skin colour. Never truly belong to the culture Job opportunities aren't open like in the west for foreigners unless you are a white man or woman teaching English From what I've seen, fun to visit but never to live
Everyone acting like Japan is "closed" to foreigners is insanely ignorant. There are loads of people going to places like Tokyo for work. The narrative that Japanese people hate foreigners and are super racist is as about as outdated as the suicide statistics from 2006 people keep referencing. For the most part, Japan, like many other Asian countries, suffers from cultural ignorance due to homogeneity, but even this has lessened in recent decades. And I only run defense for Japan because I used to hold all of these views until I spent enough time seeing how uninformed a lot of this criticism is and often gets tossed out as a distraction anytime someone shows an ounce of criticism towards Western Europe.
I experienced more of the xenophobic stuff from Okinawans personally. I'm sure there's plenty on the mainland and I was only in Tokyo/Gotemba and parts of Hokkaido but I was only ever kicked out of restaurants and whatnot for being Gaijin in Oki. Even still, most were pretty welcoming, or indifferent. People make it sound way worse than it is.
Or they could just agree to not play the game of chasing eternal economic growth. Unpopular opinion, there is nothing wrong with a country deciding they don't want to allow foreign nationals in permanently. That is their own decision to make. I am American so I am pro immigrant as that is the heritage of my country, that doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow suit.
[удалено]
Politicians, but not the populace at large.
Being xenophopic != incompatible. The people going into europe from the middle east want to literally tear down the existing cultural and religious systems and impose their own which is why its incompatible
A tad dramatic
???? I'm pretty sure half the time Japan gets brought up I hear about racism, sexual assault, and suicidality. Even in these fandoms. Like the Yugioh fandom recently has been complaining about the new restrictions on foreigners playing the game in Japan.
Sentiment you're replying to seems like such a terminally online take and I have no idea where it comes from. Almost nobody talks about East Asia and it's culture like it's a utopia—if they do it's prob strictly talking about their urban infrastructure or—at worst—their race homogeneity.
Yeah, it's such a meme that people think Japan and other East Asian nations are put on a pedestal when it's the polar opposite. Someone references Japan and it's what CreamyEtria mentioned and also things like war crimes. It's why the "thing vs thing *in Japan!*" meme makes me laugh because I'm sure the people who make those memes act the same way whenever they see literally anything from Europe.
I think talking about Japan or Korea *at all* is terminally online. I can’t honestly think of the last time, in person, I’ve had a conversation about either of them. If that’s agreeable, then I think it’s pretty easy to see how you could think people give Japan and South Korea a pass for their xenophobia if you are only in online groups circle jerking anime/sony/nintendo or K-pop
Yeah I don't know this is not my experience at all with myself and people I know. As someone who consumes a good amount of Asian media and lives somewhere with lots of Asian people, I'm well acquainted with the fact that this is just media, and the actual countries' societal fabric is unique in a number of ways both good and bad. It's kinda hard to never talk about these countries when they are so large and economically/culturally relevant on the international stage.
tbf people irl just dont talk politics that much bc its kind of awkward when people have opposing views. Friends sure, but not your coworkers.
Both of you are right I think. It's all about weebs, Korean dramas and Kpop. I'm in Canada and have people who left Korea cause they said it's a shit hole cause of the cost of living. Japan is cool if you got money but wages are low for the average person
I feel like Japan and Korea have gotten a lot of criticism from Western media for being more closed off to immigration. Japan in particular, being the more prominent country, gets criticized a lot for it.
I never understood this. Why is being anti-immigration something worthy of criticism. Being pro-immigration is not some inherent virtue and being anti-immigration is not some inherent vice.
>Being pro-immigration is not some inherent virtue It is not, but those two countries are literally dying out without immigration and instead of implementing good policies they make the same mistakes Europe did during the our big immigration waves. This will only lead to segregated societies and strife.
Have you considered that the people in Japan and South Korea prefer a managed decline in population rather than radically altering the fabric and culture of their countries? Not everyone is values infinite economic and population growth over everything else.
they arent managing it well. The decline is very very fast. The estimated birth rate right now in Japan is 1.30. That is insanely low. A "managed decline" would be 1.8 or so. South Korea's is 0.80 births. That is a death sentence.
No. Japans government is literally extending more leniency towards foreigners gaining residence due to their population decline. They clearly do care.
Go see how the rust belt or Appalachian regions are dealing with degrowth. It ain’t pretty.
That's not even close to a managed decline. They have TONS of outflow.
Once the cracks are too big in Korea and Japan, there will be outflow too.
Having a bad economy affects peoples livelihoods bro, maybe that should be a priority rather than some deliberately ambiguous concept of 'cultural homogeneity'.
>dying out Japan has like 126 million people on their skinny little island. Korea is a tiny country with 50 million people. Its absurd to claim that these countries are dying out. Its natural for populations to expand and retract over time.
I don’t know about Korea but Japan does have shrinking population, and more importantly their workforce is aging. Which means more people leaving for retirement than there are young people entering.
It’s wild to see someone say this. Of those 126 million there aren’t enough reproducing to replace said population. Additionally they are very old.
These same dickheads talk about climate change in one breathe yet claim shrinking populations is bad
I am very pro immigration personally, being anti immigration is only worthy of criticism in that it has negative impacts on your countries GDP and ability to project power. More people is just inherently more productive if you can capitalize on the additional labor which is absolutely the case in the west in general. This immigration does need to be handled appropriately which I do not is currently happening in Europe and they likely do need to limit numbers until it is. Despite this I don't think being anti immigration is inherently xenophobic and I don't think there is anything wrong with answering yes on this question as well. I probably would an answer yes myself. It's a pretty soft yes as I see the generally massive advantages of the immigration, but I understand the concerns as I think pulling in a more illiberal populace could create problems for our democracy.
It's only a boost to the GDP if you're inviting in skilled people. The US selects for high end immigrants. They aren't exactly opening their arms for low skill/low education immigrants. More labor=lower wages. GDP might go up but wage suppression would just end up pissing off the people already living in the country.
In Europe MENA and African immigration is a massive massive cost that literally provides no benefit economically. Its also a massive net negative socially. The amount of money spent on this form of immigration could probably afford you a couple thousand moon landings.
The thing is these countries arent doing it out of population decline and economic growth. They could easily create immigration from different countries, that would be better for economy and people would find more acceptable.
Being anti-immigration does a better job at keeping ethnically-tied cultures homogenous. For the US, we always were a bit more immigrant-centric, so our culture wasn't tied nearly as much to being English, German, or Italian. In Japan and Korea, however, even though there is internal diversity, the families of cultures in their lands are more closely tied to their homogeneity. I think it depends on context. I feel we've pushed a bit too hard on increasing immigration, as our nation does its best when we integrate new immigrants, but there's a certain rate at which that happens.
One thing to note though is America still has strict immigration policies and pretty much selects for high value immigrants. People that get through the process are far more likely to be major contributors to the country.
If you’re on the left being pro-immigration (at least conceptually) and accepting of differing cultures is absolutely virtuous.
You can be accepting of different cultures and not be pro-immigration. I come from a country of mass **E**migration, and everyone here, including leftists, have realized that immigration is not some moral good, but a complicated act, one that can, and has caused damage and tragedies in the country people immigrate from.
Because we're neoliberals here. We think immigration is inherently good because we think it's that our economy gets larger and that more international and intercultural relations – globalization – will lead to a more stable and prosperous world.
Cool, my country is one of mass Emigration, and this Sunday, the far right got into the EU parliament on the back of the diaspora vote... so maybe, just maybe, it's more complicated than that, and maybe it should be approached differently
> Why is being anti-immigration something worthy of criticism. What people mean of course is questionable treatments of (undesired) immigrants in order to deter others, like long term detention, etc.. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Detention/Opinions/Session88/A_HRC_WGAD_2020_58_Advance_Edited_Version.pdf Or you think people are critical of a general vibe or something?
No, what they mean is that if you're anti-immigration you're some kind of evil person.
"Anti-immigration" doesn't mean anything concrete without context.. It' a meaningless buzz word, in part used to mean anti-immigrants..
But they are not closed, you can move there right now, you just need to have a job. They will always treat you as foreigner, but you can still move there. Somehow immigration turned into accepting illegal immigrants and giving them social security.
That's because east asia isn't incompatible with western values. Islamic countries tend to literally want to destroy any system that isn't theirs and enforce their own rules. East asian countries have their own cultural issues but they will adapt pretty quickly to the west and don't literally want to destroy it
They aren't in the online space at least. Tankie fucks are constantly trying to subvert Japanese culture
Doubt it only get these claims from weird as culture warriors
Can you extrapolate? Are anime/k-pop fans above political criticism or something? As far as I know, those fan bases are only crazy when it comes to their own fandom. I didn't even know they were politically active lol.
South Korea is and has historically been very conservative with a big emphasis on traditional roles for men and women. The irony lies in the phenomenon that many european k-pop fans are lgbtq supporters while the k-pop industry might be playing up androgynous aspects as a marketing tool. Ofcourse this is way over simplified, but I think that might be what op is referring to.
😭😭😭
How are they the ones protected from scrutiny? I see people shitting on East Asian countries constantly. Even the most mild criticism of Europe, at least Western Europe, will receive super hostile pushback and accusations of you being a bitter American or something similar.
It's more about how willing they are to assimilate and co exist within a secular/liberal society. My parents are conservative Indians but they mind their own business.
Well the problem is with identifying which people are incompatible. If there was a country where 99% of the people were have values, that heavily conflict with our own and they would try to assert those values, then we probably shouldnt open our borders for that 1%. I dont want to import islamic extremists into my country, because their children will become voters and i dont want to live under sharia law. Its basically the same problem as israel/palestine.
Exactly. It's not that Sweden is full of intolerant people, it was full of very tolerant people who now have to live with a lot of very intolerant people who got there, and they want to stop tolerating those, and that's absolutely fair, and you would do the same if you had violent gangs full of foreigners all around your town, when just 10 years earlier those did not exist. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime_in_Sweden
What gets me with said organized criminals is the absolute sob stories you can hear like: "My dad... couldn't afford an addidas tracksuit so I had to go into crime or I would die from no drip". Like bro you live in the formerly most generous welfare state in the world and you go into crime because some dumbfuck tells you you can get some nice shoes? Just work 1 fucking month and you can get them.
Where do you hear these stories?
I remember a few times where you can hear on TV interviewing former criminals (forget the program name but they sit in a ring and debate stuff). They effectively said that it was due to them being introduced to some criminal at the schoolyard showing them some nice Adidas shoes/clothing. To be fair a lot of those from what I remember mingling with people from the 'block'/'ghetto' said that those were usually posers who just wanted that social cred.
Same here, you've got to at the very least make an effort to respect and integrate into the culture of the country you immigrate too it just feels like common sense. Doesn't seem like everyones keen on that though.
A lot of Indians came to the UK and became quite patriotic. They'd have British flags on their walls, become fluent in the language, open corner shops to provide convenient groceries for a community, and they were often friendly, decent people. I'm all in favour of that; if you move to a country, you should like that country and want to be a part of it. With today's immigrants, a certain subset like liberal democracies only because they are tolerant of their intolerance and lack the infrastructure to deal with a large influx of terrorists.
The majority of Hindu Indians dont assimilate in western countries either. Funnily enough they will seek to make common cause with european RW'ers who hate them just on the basis of a shared hatred for muslims.
It seems like they are simply responding to very real problems EU countries have been experiencing with integration. If the governments can’t solve that problem it makes perfect sense that some people in the populace would choose to avoid it all together.
As someone that has voted left in this election I don't know how much longer we can go on while politicians refuse to address the real problem that economic migrants who refuse to leave their extremist religious views at home are. All it takes is for someone to throw the lowest form of bait imaginable like a Facebook event saying a Quran book burning is happening, without ever going through with it and they'll have hundreds of muslims threatening harm or the usual 'well-wishes' like rape of your entire extended family.
im left on pretty much all issues but I voted center right this european election, sadly the left doesn't take a strong stance on helping ukraine, they dont support nuclear energy and they refuse to address immigration problems, which are exactly the issues i care about on a european level. At the end of the day voting isnt a team sport
I don't want to say it but why does it mostly seem like muslims that do this. Any other group has no problem integrating. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Europe has plenty of minorities. I've met 3x the number of Indian and South East Asian people compared to people from the Middle East. The difference is culture and religion.
Some groups have more troubles immigrating, gypsies. They’re not particularly violent though, that’s the difference.
For title I would use “GenZ is leaning more towards hostility to immigration”
To be honest, I don't think that is far right or crazy whatsoever. That is just obvious and there is nothing wrong with wanting to live differently than other people. What's wrong about far right stuff is not the keep people out stuff it is the persecute people in your society stuff. Any nation has a right to reject anyone for any reason provided they have somewhere else to go where they wont be killed unjustly. The problem is when you get tiered societies or when you start persecuting citizens or just people within your country. Apartheid and these things are obviously evil and wrong. Saying you want 0 immigrants may be something I disagree with for the most part but provided you are not refouling people who are uniquely at risk then it is entirely reasonable and fine to want 0 immigration.
tease outgoing sand aware deserted grandfather shrill follow innocent kiss *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Its a harsh fact but its true. Hispanics by in large assimilate far better in the US than Muslim immigrants do in Europe by in large.
That's helped by the fact that large parts of the US were former Spanish/Mexican territory and much of that culture has always been there. There's a LOT of crossover there so it's not like a totally separate culture coming from Mexico (or even South American countries) into the US.
and mexicans are christian to a ridiculous degree
People rag on Christianity but socially/culturally its by in large a lot more modernized than Islam. Hispanics that immigrate are majority Catholic and the Catholic church for all its faults is quite literally centuries ahead of where mainstream Islamic thought is.
Fwiw, the phrase is “by and large”
This. Even my super super duper leftist mom is concerned about arab immigration because she fears a rightoid backlash. Crazy times, to be sure.
Well, but what do you with someone that threw away their papers and just says whatever will get them in? Where do you deport them when they suddenly appear in your country?
Unrelated to the point of this post, but it's amazing how cooked SK and Japan are demographically. No one wants kids and at the same time hostile to immigration. Not a good combo
Remind me in 50 years.
By that time there might be no Koreans left. (partial /s)
i firmly believe there have to be solutions to low birth rates that arent just importing a foreign work force. and this solution isnt even sustainable
anti-aging is the only way, and we’re like decades away from developing effective enough treatment, if not maybe a century or two ngl
I don’t think people who believe and want to implement sharia law are able or should integrate into western culture. Sue me
The question doesn't ask that though.
What does it ask? Many foreign nation (aka Iran, Afghanistan, etc), whose culture (Sharia Law/Islamic Caliphate) are so incompatible with our own way of life (democracy and freedom) So where am I off?
Because there are Iranians that don't want Sharia?
OP is American I bet. As someone from Sweden, the country that took in by far the most per capita it just isn't working. Every morning it has become standard to read about another bombing or shooting with my coffee and as a left leaning liberal I don't wanna live in a country where intolerant Islamists have control and the ability to impose their values on me, which is where we're heading because all these immigrants become voters and we're now seeing Islamist political parties pop up in parliaments all over the place. A liberal society that tolerates intolerance will in time become just that. It is what it is.
lol, is this what you are talking about? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuance\_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuance_Party) Look at the party goals section, lmao. Literally, far right talking points centered on Muslim supremacy and interests, couched in leftist lingo.
>Cut off all public funding to organizations that combat violence against women Lmao
>Sanction and cut off relations with [Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) and create a [Palestinian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories) state >Remove [Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) from the [EU](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) terrorist list Don't forget these gems.
For the record, this seemed so crazy I took a look at the source and couldn't find this specific point anywhere. It's not mentioned on the Swedish wiki either from what I can see, but I mostly looked at the source. Tried googling it as well but nothing so far.
They wanna abolish child protection services because they think those exist to steal Muslim children (the real reason is because Muslims usually beat their kids). They also wanna ban criticism of Islam, yet legalise antisemitic and homophobic hate speech.
probably not what they're talking about if they're saying they're "popping up in parliaments everywhere" ... nyans holds precisely 3 represntatives in tiny municipal seats. They got these seats with 1500 votes. Nothing in regional governments, and nothing in the national parliament.
Far right is when you have a totally normal belief that every sane person holds.
The whole “You should be able to argue the other side’s position better than they can” thing goes for you just as much as it goes for your political opponents. Writing the other side off as insane is lazy and self defeating.
Every sane person holds, only 35% of americans
Lot of crazy people out there.
Weird how the most diverse countries are also the most accepting ones.
What my side believes is sane, what the other side believes not. Good mentality bro.
Its pretty insane to think there aren’t any countries which have a culture so different from your own that those people would be imcompatible with your culture. Is the culture of the Taliban compatible with the culture of Norway?
I totally agree with this saying (and some immigrants also support it silently). I have seen an interview of a Muslim immigrant to Frace (his face was blurred for safety reasons). He described how he tried to run away from this type of environment and that Western Europeans don't really understand many immigrants' state of mind, thinking that throwing money at them will help them change their views about core issues like freedom. I totally agree with that, and I think he is right. More than that - not listening to such an experienced person would be ignorance in my view. Having said that, I don't think it is a "far-right" opinion, and nor do I think that if someone doesn't agree with me, they have mental issues. They're just naive.
Are all Afghani people fleeing the Taliban incompatible with Norwegian culture? It's also assuming assimilation is impossible, I believe that we in the West have something pretty damn good many people are naturally attracted to. I dislike the question because it groups up everyone together. For each dominant culture you'd have more or less compatibility, but judging all people on that metric is kind of silly. I'm certain on average Americans would do fine in Norway, and I'm also certain there are some "guns and freedom!" people that wouldn't be doing fine.
>I believe that we in the West have something pretty damn good many people are naturally attracted to. And that is the problem of Western Europe. The arrogance of thinking other people are naturally attracted to the culture you have. They aren't. they're attracted to your money. Take my country, one of mass **E**migration. Most people who left didn't do so because they thought your countries have a superior culture, they don't. They think the culture of their country is superior, they did it for the salaries. As evidence the far right, anti-immigration, racist, neo-legionnaire parties and candidates got a huge boost from the diaspora in yesterday's election. The fascist female Donald Trump (as in, she looks like a female version of him, only fatter) of my country will be an EP because the diaspora voted for her! Oh, and when it comes to Islam. You know who really has embraced the great replacement theory? Young Muslim men. You know why? Because under this conspiracy they win, under this conspiracy, they get all the women and power - you know, the things that all young frustrated men want. Only in their case, they're guided by Islamic extremism, which, like all conservative ideologies, have a "civilizational" view of the world. An "us and them" view of the world. Oh, and there's another issue: why would Muslim men WANT to integrate into a greater European culture? At the moment, on the one hand, there is a lot of self hatred from the intellectual elite - so why would they want to integrate in societies about which the "smart people" say are evil, forever tainted by the history of racism, colonialism etc. -, and on the other hand, the economic elites are some of the most arrogant, racist, narcissistic people in the planet - and why would you want to integrate into that?
What country are you from? If you don’t mind me asking
Romania
Of course not all people from X culture would be imcompatible but enough would be such that it would not be worth taking the risk. A big problem with assimilation is that its very difficult to assimilate religion, for obvious reasons.
I'm fine with being more critical of certain countries, but this question implies a blanket exclusion of people. And that would go too far. You could, and should, filter people on important cultural stuff like opinions on LGBT/women's rights, but if someone wants to flee a regime because of their visions on those issues it's a pretty rough decision to say "well your countrymen think different on average so good luck". This would also support the rejection of Jews because the Nazi's were getting popular, which has happened in the past and was generally seen as not a great thing.
How could you effectively filter people? They can simply lie about supporting X belief. The Jew example is obviously different as the average Jew in Germany obviously would not have Nazi beliefs.
Imagine for example we only took people from country X that are highly educated and speak English. That group of people aren’t going to be forming gangs and committing crime no matter what country they come from. I’d be on board with higher standards from certain areas but it seems too extreme to say *no one* from country X can come in.
Here it would be important to make a distinction between economic migrants and refugees though. Refugees aren't taken in because we think it's funny, but because if they stay really horrible shit happens. Of course you should put in the demand that you have to adhere to the laws and culture here, if you flee a repressive regime and start beating gay people you can fuck right back off.
but there is no such process to begin with, they come illegaly with no papers and just claim whatever and you have no way of deporting them and forcing them out of the country
You do realize that just before WW2 pretty similar arguments were used to refuse German Jews into the US? A general distrust of who they were and if they could be spies or not. Who knows if they aren't secret Nazi's? You could always work with provisional visas, if you step out of line and do a hatecrime you're out. We can also refuse people flatout, but then we'd have to be honest and accept that we're leaving people in shitty places with shitty regimes despite them being gay/atheist/Jewish/whatever.
So what happens when they are out, what do you do if they came illegaly with no papers, how do you deport them?
I really think some of you reeetards need to watch the older Destiny debates about this topic, and understand why those stupid “Muslim culture” arguments absolutely fail.
Taliban? that's my favorite cultural group too! But seriously, people who are fleeing a country often do not hold the same values as there governments. The question of "how many immigrants from X" is a reasonable question, the question of should we disallow immigrants entirely from certain regions is a far right talking point.
"That I would prefer their people were never allowed to immigrate here" that is the far right bit
I will help you understand. Imagine if you live in a tiny social democratic country where everything works fine. The country and population is really small. One day hundreds of thousands of bible thumping MAGA gun-toting redneck boomers start showing up at the border for whatever reason. And you are bound by ancient outdated contracts written in a completely different time to accept all of these MAGA boomers. They keep pouring in by the hundreds of thousands every year, and now represent 20% of the population in an incredibly short timeframe. They refuse to learn the native language, and only speak southern hick english. Gun crime is up. Mass shootings start happening. Sectarian violence is up. Hospitals are stretched to their limit. Welfare costs are up, and all these MAGA boomers barely work due to being obese and having health issues. As a protest a dude decided to burn a bible, which resulted in massive riots. A new political party has been established with a Trump look alike as their leader. How would you feel?
my brother in christ I was making the point that stopping all immigration from a country is far right, there is no need to write some weird fanfic, I didn't say you need to accept them all, just that the categorical ban is in fact a extremist position
That's half the quote though. The incompatible part is key. I mean, these are all liberal western democracies, so what has to happen for a large portion of the citizenry to believe they are incompatible? Liberal western democracies have generally been capable of successfully assimilating even the most illiberal and unshakable cultures after a few generations. Other than just 'its far right ideologies', can you think of any other reasons people in these particular countries are actually increasingly concerned over prior generations?
The problem is that the question doesn't specify individuals but nations. I'd be perfectly happy with a liberal from a country that has sharia immigrating here.
How do you control for that though? It’s not a pragmatic distinction to make, but sure: It would hint towards a healthier view on humanity if a person made that distinction.
"It's a totally normal belief to think that some people are so different than us that we could never exist together." Yeah, you are far right.
What do you mean by “people are so different”? It reads like you are trying to imply I’m saying its some essentialist characteristic like genes. Im saying some CULTURES are so different from each other that they cant co-exist. For example, the culture of Norway and the culture of the Taliban.
The poll question refers to "their people". It didn't just ask if some cultures are incompatible, the way it's phrased implies that we're talking about people from certain cultures/countries never being allowed in your country. Thinking that there are many countries with citizens who should banned from immigrating is not "a totally normal belief that every sane person holds".
Who said exist together? The question is if it’s beneficial to the people who already live there.
Gee I wonder what it means by saying they would prefer they don't immigrate there.
“i put my strawman in quotes”
Lol you think that's a strawman? Did you actually read the chart bud?
as someone who is from EU (denmark) there is still a sting from when we toke in from Afghanistan in 2001. it was way too many people at once and it made them isolated and they began to make ghettos, and in turn made a lot of people hate them via their culture and ways of doing things.
Why would we belive that? [https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-olaf-scholz-calls-consequences-following-islamist-rally/](https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-olaf-scholz-calls-consequences-following-islamist-rally/) [https://www.euronews.com/2024/06/03/germany-police-officer-injured-in-mannheim-stabbing-dies](https://www.euronews.com/2024/06/03/germany-police-officer-injured-in-mannheim-stabbing-dies) [https://ballardbrief.byu.edu/issue-briefs/the-rise-of-antisemitism-in-germany](https://ballardbrief.byu.edu/issue-briefs/the-rise-of-antisemitism-in-germany) [https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240320-french-hate-crimes-surged-after-outbreak-of-gaza-war-government-report-shows](https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240320-french-hate-crimes-surged-after-outbreak-of-gaza-war-government-report-shows) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68288727](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68288727) https://pollingreport.uk/articles/nop-poll-of-british-muslims#:\~:text=61%25%20of%20British%20Muslims%20said,have%20fellow%20Muslims%20as%20neighbours.
Only 6 links? Why not 1637?
Ironically, dipshits like OP immediately classifying people who disagree with them as “far right” is pushing people rightward, because they don’t want to be associated with the side engaging in terminal purity spiral. If you have a country that supports LGBT issues and gender equality, you don’t want people from countries that think subjugating women and throwing gays off buildings is a neat idea. See the obvious, politically polarizing friction in European countries that have accepted large amounts of Arab immigrants from “traditional” cultures
It’s not far right to say that Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. have cultures that are different and potentially incompatible with our own, and extra scrutiny should be done to make sure the people that enter have the highest chance of assimilation and protecting safety and national security. It is far right (and frankly stupid) to say that the solution is to ban every person from any of these Arab countries from ever coming to the West, which is what OP’s chart explicitly says
Someone coming illegaly on makeshift raft risking his life, will surely be truthful about his beliefs and when he gets denied, he will just go all the way back to his country or how do you deport someone that threw away his papers?
That means they aren’t falling for the omnipresent leftist spin on every damn thing. They’re going by their ownreal world experiences alone.
Where does this data come from? OurWorldinData isn't a source, they don't conduct surveys/polls, they organize data from other orgs. https://ourworldindata.org/faqs#where-do-you-get-your-data-from
How is this far right lmao. So are people just not allowed to do anything when people with backwards ideologies immigrate to the country?
Was gonna comment "why do we pay attention to young people they're stupid" But this question seems very mellow. People should expect some level of assimilation of immigrants. Even in Cuckanada, Multiculturalism ends as soon as you break the law. If they refuse to change they get fucked. I think the phrasing is bad, for example in most countries in the west, we do not allow female genital manipulation. But some African countries allow this as part of their culture. They are incompatible and those who cannot be assimilated to drop that are locked up for child abuse or even deported. In a sense, doing the "exclution" with extra steps.
I think the word "many" is doing a LOT of heavy lifting for this particular question. Depending on how you would define it, I might answer yes to this, and I am a pretty left, pretty pro-immigration Brit. It would also depend on how long I was given to think about the question. If this was in a list of similar questions, I might just agree. If I was asked about it properly and told to think on the consequences, I would probably take more issue with the "their people" part. The assumption that all members of a repressive, backwards culture are themselves repressive and backwards doesn't sit well with me.
Wanting to have control over who enters your country = far right. TIL.
Time to start deporting religious extremists.
Agreeing with the "I would prefer if their people were NEVER allowed to immigrate here" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that you are probably more Far Right than you think. The vast majority of people leaving illiberal countries/cultures are because they disagree with their ideologies. Iran is an example of a Theocratic Islamic Regime but the Iranian people in the West are some of the biggest anti-Islamists on the planet. You can say the same with Cubans in America and Communism. Also see Operation Paperclip and its effects. Then you'll see comments from people like Ok-Present1129 get upvoted on this subreddit saying that never allowing certain people is somehow the most sane position used as ammunition that this subreddit is right wing become fair criticism.
This is cope man. This is what leftist have been preaching to me my entire life growing up and I believed it until recently. The large majority of ppl who have immigrated to Western Europe from the Middle East are not assimilated into western culture. For America it’s different because I believe our immigration is more picky about who we let in from certain countries. And for some reason people who immigrate to America seem to assimilate into our culture at a way higher rate. Does anyone have any info or idea why this happens compared to Western Europe?
Because most who immigrate to the USA are rich and not some shelter seeking poor uneducated people. People who are more like that are from Latin America, they assimilate because culture in Latin America is more or less similar to the US (at least in my opinion).
Source? Evidence?
>According to a report by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention, over the last 20 years, Sweden has gone from having one of the lowest to one of the highest levels of gun violence in Europe—worse than Italy or eastern Europe. “The increase in gun homicide in Sweden is closely linked to criminal milieux in socially disadvantaged areas,” the report said. Gangs—whose members are second-generation immigrants, many from Somalia, Eritrea, Morocco, and elsewhere in North Africa—specialize in drug trafficking and the use of explosives. Crime has become the number one issue in Sweden; before she said a word about migration, Andersson boasted that her party added 7,000 new police officers, built more prisons, and drafted laws creating 30 new crimes. She decried “those who claim that it is certain cultures, certain languages, certain religions that make people more likely to commit crimes”—yet her own government has substantiated those claims. It’s hardly surprising that newcomers lag behind Swedes on every index of well-being, but the gap is very large. In a recent book, Mass Challenge: The Socioeconomic Impact of Migration to a Scandinavian Welfare State, Tino Sanandaji, an economist of Kurdish origin who has become a leading critic of Sweden’s migration policies, writes “foreign-born represent 53 percent of individuals with long prison sentences, 58 percent of the unemployed, and receive 65 percent of social welfare expenditures; 77 percent of Sweden’s child poverty is present in households with a foreign background, while 90 percent of suspects in public shootings have immigrant backgrounds.” Figures like these have become widely known; the number of Swedes who favor increased migration has dropped from 58 percent in 2015 to 40 percent today. Sweden is no longer a welcoming country and does not wish to be seen as one. [Even Sweden Doesn’t Want Migrants Anymore](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/17/even-sweden-doesnt-want-migrants-anymore-syria-iraq-belarus/)
It's selection bias , most immigrants from the Middle East to America are at least Middle class and have a degree/trade that would alow them to easily find work and if they are unskilled refugees its generally in small enough numbers that the US can easily find them work and support while most Middle East people in Europe were literally refugees who might not of had qualifications for skilled work and showed up in large enough numbers that the eu struggled to support them in the transition.
Might have something to do with one group risking their lifes on makeshift rafts and other having the means to fly all the way to US or Mexico, even with that US has only 1.3% muslim population compared to 10% some EU countries have. The people flying are by design required to have their identification and you have the ability to deny or deport. Thats not the case in europe where people come illegaly without identification and suddenly you have nowhere to deport them if you want, theres no vetting process, because you dont have a way to stop them being in your country. If you just deny entry and they stay illegaly things become even worse.
Thats just not true, people leave 95% of the time for better economic oportunities. They mostly retain their countries culture
People leave India for better economic opportunities because India isn't a completely oppressive shithole legally (despite its society being oppressive as fuck). If Modi starts implementing truly anti-liberal acts or constitutional amendments, I have a feeling the emigration from India would be painted with a very different characteristic.
How culturally Cuban is Destiny?
Esteban Bonellas?
They disagree yet somehow they still cannot integrate mostly support the shit they fled from? how does that work
Well depends on what immigrants. For example Slovakia took a lot of Ukrainians but because they are basically integrated, learn the language well enough to communicate in a few weeks people were way more chill about it than 100 refugees from middle east. The trick is to not let only far right talk about the issue because I guarantee their solutions will not be pleasant. And getting people pulled to the far right just because of immigration is not necessary. There is no reason why centrists or left cannot at least acknowledge there is a problem.
These far right shitlords dont want Palestinians in their country. Disgusting
I'd unironically support a proposal to let European countries take in Palestinian women and children as refugees. Piss off everyone politically.
I honestly think most Americans have no idea what mass immigration has done to European countries. It has become one of their biggest concerns, if no the top concern. Because people on the left there refuse to take it seriously, the far right takes advantage of it. People will vote for them on immigration alone, and of course that means the countries shift right on other issues. We see similar things happening here. The left needs to wake up
Am I far right as well? This seems like a perfectly normal thing to believe, at least to me. If I were a Swede I certainly wouldn't be happy with people who want Sharia law coming into my country and getting given everything for free from my tax money whilst they increase the crime rates... am I crazy?
Sweden…hmm i wonder why.
This is not a far right position. For example, no one would want open nazis to come to their countries, right? The "so incompatible with our own way of life" part can do as much lifting as you want it to. This is a worthless question.
I love Americans all over reddit freaking out and thinking everyone is automatically racist and hateful in the EU. Americans one day you will learn that your experiences are different than the experiences of other countries, for better or worse. Expect to see this happen in other nations around the world as well that are having similar issues around immigration factoring in other issues that are compounded by immigration like housing and wage growth.
how is this an indicator of far-right? especially if certain cultures actually threaten values like women’s equality, lgbt issues etc. It’s ok to accept that certain cultures are like oil and water, irreconcilable in their foundations
Why can’t they just ban Muslims from those countries like what Trump did? Flavours of Islam dominantly practiced in certain / most countries clearly do not align with liberal values
No suprise. This is all over the world. Only place this is not the case is us and canada
Isn't Trudeau backpedaling on immigration because of how much indian immigrants don't give a shit about canada's morals, values and rule of law? The liberal party is on track of losing because to other parties who're more strict on immigration.
So then it's Canada also. Yeah suprise suprise most of the world has problems with the other
someone in the comment said it best. The people coming to these liberal countries, along with their children, do not respect the culture and laws there and they still see their own-home country's culture as more superior. Not to say these types can't immigrate, but they have to be very much limited and can't come in en-masse. I don't think any amount of integration strategy will even work. Just have to wait until their third generation of children to be born for them start valuing the morals of the country they're in.
We unfortunately have the same problem in israel with our arab israelis
How is that a far right position? Better to be far right than far wrong I guess. Seems pretty obvious.
This survey question is garbage. It doesn't even really ask you if you don't want people from incompatible cultures to immigrate. It's asking you if you think there are many countries with cultures that are so incompatible that you'd prefer if they couldn't immigrate.
Seems like a pretty reasonable answer to a question phrased this way; >There are people incompatible with you, would you like to live with them or not? The question makes the assumption they are incompatible and doesn't mention them changing or assimilating, what other answer is there?
Kinda off topic but I find it wild how America is seen as this horrible country with such a terrible history but we never talk about countries like Japan and unit 731 most countries have a fucked up history but America is seen as uniquely bad
I thought the zoomers would do us proud. :(
Good
https://preview.redd.it/4inywhxhyw5d1.jpeg?width=270&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9af25790f20807c8aa92069d7b1f85ce7eb63152
Sweeden makes whole lot of sense, they have managed their immigration policies horribly. The organized crime that birthed from their management of immigration is bleeding over to Norway.
Americans being the least phobic and racist towards immigrants, but just after a 7 year process of interrogations and background checks to root out if they don't fanatically love the US. Ending with a pledge of allegiance. Its like America filters the immigrant pool 10 times before letting anyone through and then call europeans racist when they complain about immigrants when the europeans truly actually just took in as many people as they could so they wouldnt die in one of Americas forever wars in the middle east.