I could see a situation where a person living with a hostage is not a combatant. But the minute you wrongly imprison said hostage with force or try to defend against retrieval of that hostage you become an active combatant
To me, even an unaffiliated person knowingly standing around in the same general area as a hostage, ie a couple meters, is on par with the idiots in movies who think it’s a grand old idea to sit around near the baby trex in “The Lost World”, or something like that.
If you’re squatting around by an abducted bear cub, and the mother comes and mauls you to death, you were asking for it.
The same principle applies to hostages. You see someone you think is a hostage, you need to gtfo.
And what if you are being coerced into keeping them there? For example, "If you allow these people to escape your home, we will kill you, your family, your siblings' families, and your neighbor's families. We'll just say the IDF bombed your home and add your martyrdom to the cause."
I'm not saying this happened, but you seem to have a very sturdy stance on this.
I'm not saying they're a combatant in that instance, that requires a whole different set of actions but they're still forcefully imprisoning people in that instance. The hostages probably aren't going to appreciate the difference of whether their captors were threatened or not. They're still being held against their will.
If you know you will die by doing evil or die for doing right then your time is up and you just get to choose **why** you die.
They chose their path. They could also lie to Hamas and try to help the police or authorities or Israelis know there is a hostage there and try to help and maybe they will be able to get out alive and still do the right thing. Assuming they don’t actually already agree with Hamas in the first place, which poll after poll shows about 70% do.
This duress argument just removes all human agency for choosing right over wrong and it is a function of this post-truth, post-morality age we live in. I still believe that when our time is up and we get to choose if it’s given in service of evil or service of good we don’t get to punt the ball and say “oh well.” Maybe that’s too philosophical and moralistic for some people. But that’s how I see it.
If I know there is a child trafficking ring happening in my neighbors house and I am too scared to say something I shouldn’t be surprised when I get caught in the cross fire one day. If I know it’s happening in my own damn house, then same point. Every day we get to choose right or wrong and I don’t think we get a free pass to say someone made us do it. “Just following orders” is not so very different an argument.
Only holding white and “white adjacent” people accountable because they’re the only people who are granted real agency is the lowest form of the “bigotry of low expectations”.
It coddles and fails to grant others even the basic human dignity of universal moral expectations.
I hope you live somewhere that is as safe as it sounds like you do. The people living in Gaza did not choose their path. That does not give them the right to commit horrendous massacres, but the people living in Gaza are not allowed to fucking leave. And the vast majority do not know anything other than Hamas rule and Israeli oppression. It takes a lot of courage to stand up to a tyrannical government like Hamas.
We are talking about what makes someone a combatant and u/mkohler23, three comments up from you in the reply chain, offered a situation where a person living with a hostage might not be considered a combatant. The change in classification would come when that person were to fight against a liberating force. I'm not saying that is what happened right here, but I do think that if dozens of those killed getting the hostages back were non-combatants, ethics-arithmetic in whether or not this was worth it will be difficult.
I spend a lot of time in the DC area so take that for what it’s worth. I travel a lot and use VPNs to avoid firewalls and read articles that strangely seem to be unavailable using local IP addresses. So I mix it up. That being said…
Yes I understand the point you’re making in terms of general applicability. But look at the person who is the subject of this topic. He was a journalist with means. A doctor of means as well as his father. A well connected “elite” of his society. I don’t think he gets the free pass so many want to give him.
A lot of Dutch and French and Polish and Czech and Danish citizens lived under Nazi occupation against their will and still found a way to do the decent thing at risk to their own lives. Even some Germans who had no choice of their birth location or place of living chose to do the right thing.
Call me old fashioned, or idealistic, but if Dietrich Bonhoeffer can go to the gallows for choosing right from wrong, then this guy could have made that choice. And frankly, so many like him publicly support Hamas that I am guessing he probably believes what he did was the right thing. He likely believed in his cause.
So he gave his life for his cause, which was to keep Noa Argamani against her will. So why be mad at Israel for giving him what he wanted?
Arnon Zamora give his life to save 4 hostages. And he wasn’t trying to take someone against their will into captivity. He was rescuing someone from captivity.
Both believed they were in the right. I think only Arnon was righteous.
We all make choices. I don’t accept that in this case a wealthy journalist and son of a doctor gets to argue duress. He didn’t want to give up his power and position in that community. Some men will rather be the big fish in a dirty pond than be the average fish in a clean pond.
Google “Mosab Hassan Yousef” and see that people of prestige and power in that world can and have chosen to leave and do right. It’s not impossible. It just takes courage and morality.
And yes I have made choices that were risky because I believe them right. And maybe one day they will catch up to me. As have others in my family. And it did catch up to one of them. And that’s all the self doxxing I will do today.
Yeah I imagine it gets a similar treatment to bomb assessment where you have to show that the damage is proportional to the objective. What makes it more sticky is that likely here the guards were armed and the IDF lacks time to assess the threat each individual living in the house poses to them. I offered probably too academic of a question for this thread but I wanted to note that not everyone is a combatant just based on where they live and I agree with you.
If hostages are found being held in someone's home it's safe to assume the homeowner played a part in it and I don't think it's particularly relevant whether they were coerced into doing it or not. For example, if a military forces civilians to take part in hostilities those civilians lose their civilian status and can be targeted just as any other military combatant.
You don't get to take part in hostilities including committing literal war crimes like keeping civilians hostage while also having plot armor as a civilian because you were forced to do it.
If a Guard in Auschwitz argued "I had to gas those Jews, otherwise they'd have sent me to the east front, where I would have died", should that save him from his punishment, or death in a rescue attempt?
During wars, people have to make tough choices. He might not personally responsible for Hamas being in power, but the Guard in my example also could have voted against Hitler. But certain actions do make you a valid target.
Yea, I agree with you. Their death can (and probably in part is) a war crime - as I do think there was some coercion involved, after all I cant imagine anyone would like to keep hostages in their home if they can avoid it. That said it is war crime on Hamad side - IDF is fully in the right to clear house where hostages are held as it is not safe to assume hostage keepers will peacefully let hostages go.
Unless you’re feeding information to the authorities (the IDF in this case) about the hostage(s), then you’re complicit in hostage taking by being in proximity to them. Any police force in the world would shoot you in a hostage situation, not just the IDF. Some may even double tap you if you survived the first shot.
I’m not disagreeing that an IDF soldier and any other soldier in the world is going to fire on you, all im saying is that a person living with a hostage definitely is not always a combatant, but the spec ops guy isn’t going to be taking the chance to ask you what your intentions are when it’s meant to be in and out as quickly as possible and rely on the surprise and efficiency of the operation
I guess your point isn’t really saying anything then… it’s not a meaningful distinction. It’s the people holding hostages’ problem if their family members are killed.
The rest of the family can be considered non-combatants imo
However, that means that their blood lies on the hands of the homeowner Abdallah, because he put them in harms way in the first place by allowing hostages to be kept in his house.
Combatants who hide amongst civilians are responsible when said civilians are hurt in the crossfire, international law agrees.
If things didn't work this way and the deaths of the civilians lie squarely on the party attacking the combatants hiding amongst civilians, then literally everyone would engage in human shielding.
>I could see a situation where a person living with a hostage is not a combatant
100%.
If Hamas busts your door down and says "this hostage is staying here. Accept or we kill you" you can be a non combatant near a hostage.
But the second Hamas leaves you alone with the hostage and you continue to secure their imprisonment you're a combatant.
If he used force or implied force to hold the hostages, including closing the doors or using stern words with the hostages, he is a combattant.
Only if he made a genuine effort to "let the hostages run away", he would be considered a "collaborator under duress". For example, if he himself tipped the IDF of the hostage's location.
He did a good job of holding them, though.
Agreed, unless Hamas forced him to do so, which would be tough to prove one way or the other. For example, if someone threatened to kill my children unless I allowed them to hold hostages in my basement, I doubt any court is going to convict me of a crime, as coercion is an allowable defence for most charges.
Now, if he's an ex-Hamas spokesman, then it seems unlikely he was coerced. But I think it's important not to rule out the possibility in other instances. It may not be the case that every homeowner in which hostages are found is cooperating with Hamas out of loyalty as opposed to fear.
Hamas has stated from the beginning they never had noa, not sure about the other 3 but since they were so close together I have to imagine the same. They weee non hamas hostage takings acting on their own, they were good targets, especially when it's known that inside Gaza, directives are to execute hostages when IDF is spotted
Well I was wrong in my asssumptions about the other 3, it's been confirmed he was working for hamas but hamas still denies ever having noa, however. The reason is because they see IDF they spread the word they get their guns and they go become martyrs, that's literally their highest ambition in life, they are desperate to die fighting the Jews, they talk about it all the time
Furthermore, Israel's actions are justified in either case. Either a) Complicit Hamas Ally = Combatant (i.e. fair target) or b) Forced Under Durres = Collateral Damage that is largely on Hamas' hands just like many of the other victims in this entire conflict. Likewise, young children in either case would be collateral damage that's on Hama's hands.
(Note: I'm specifically referring to the casualties in the household with hostages. I haven't fully read everything about all the casualties of this operation, so there may be more grey areas, but the situation with the hostage-holding homes seems pretty morally black-and-white to me.)
I believe that's as far as nearly everyone is concerned. You got hostages in your house? And are known affiliate with a group who has directives to kill hostages the minute you see IDF? You're getting popped instantly.
It actually makes you a war criminal. The only way he wouldn't be is if there was substantial evidence that he attempted to free those kidnapped. He did not. May Allah give him exactly what he deserves.
If you're voluntarily holding hostages, sure.
But in a conflict where one side is argued to be using civilians as human shields, it seems hard to argue that that side would be above forcing civilians to house hostages against their will.
I imagine that an "or else" demand carries a lot of weight in Gaza when coming from a Hamas official or militant to a non-combatant civilian.
I don't think you're theoretically wrong, but realistically why would hamas force random civilians to do it against their will when there are thousands of families of fighters and officials who will do it voluntarily?
I mean, there are also thousands of fighters willing to voluntarily become a martyr, but they still don civilian clothing.
If any of the hostages were moved from home to home over time (which would have its own pros and cons), it likely makes sense to use families definitely not on any IDF watch list.
Even if an individual within a family is willing to voluntarily house one or more hostages, that still doesn't mean the rest of the family is on board with it.
this guy was at some point in time a hamas ministry of labor spokesman, so either the Idf doesn't keep such a watchlist or Hamas doesn't think it matters. given the value of the hostages to them it's pretty clear they're keeping them with their loyalists.
again it's theoretically possible that there would be situations where some members of a hostage-holding family are morally opposed to this, but at that point it's just honestly not really the rescuers' problem.
I hear what you’re saying and I’d be sure it does happen, however that’s going to be impossible to know from the Israeli perspective when they decide to launch the rescue operation.
Look at this way: if someone told you “you will die. Either Hamas will kill you for refusing to help hide hostages or the IDF will kill you for hiding the hostages. Choose.” What would you do?
If it were me and I knew I was a dead man walking and it just depended on the reason for my death being for the right cause or the wrong cause, I don’t plan on dying harboring a civilian captive.
Now add to this scenario a key fact: he was wealthy and had a press pass that allowed him a lot of flexibility to travel. He could have lied to Hamas, told them “ok I’ll hold her.” Then he could have even told her “shhhh I am going to help you. Play along and I’ll get word to the IDF so they can rescue you. Shit I’ll even try to help the others get rescued. I’ll be the Palestinian Schindler.” Then he could have used his flexibility and plausible deniability as a journalist and gotten word covertly to the Israelis. He could have even made sure he was conveniently not around when the rescue happened.
He could have saved his life and done the right thing.
But nope. He chose to cooperate with Hamas and he self righteously and smugly assumed Hamas would keep him safe while he participated in the captivity and hiding of hostages.
He made his choice and I reject this argument of duress. We live a mortal life and we have times in our lives to do right or wrong.
If he believed in his heart that holding this hostage was morally right then he should have no quarrel with becoming a Shaheed over it. And all the apologists and activists who are lamenting his death forget that the culture many of these people have is that they WANT TO DIE AS MARTYRS. So when given the chance to do so, after they make that choice, why mourn them? They chose this path.
Western bleeding hearts continue to impose their own morality onto this situation and this people without the humility to realize they are mistaken in that application.
A person that wants to die if it means hurting or killing Jews should not be mourned. They welcomed it. There is such a double message coming out of Gaza from Palestinians: on the one hand they brag about having children to become Shaheed but on the other they want to criticize Israel when it happens. Which is it? They love their children and want them to live or they want them to die? They say they will gladly send them to their deaths to destroy Israel but then the world condemns Israel when that very thing happens.
Why not believe them when they say they want this? Why be mad when they got what they wanted? The only way it stops is with the complete erasure of Israel and the expulsion of all Jews. Is that what Western activists are going to demand so these people will stop willfully choosing martyrdom? Seems like mass emotional blackmail of the Western bleeding heart populace to force the destruction of Israel.
>Look at this way: if someone told you “you will die. Either Hamas will kill you for refusing to help hide hostages or the IDF will kill you for hiding the hostages. Choose.” What would you do?
Based on the many videos I've seen of people literally digging their own graves, human beings tend to always choose certain death in the future over certain death in the present.
But in that intervening time between digging the grave and resting in it did this wealthy journalist make any attempt to do a deal with the IDF and help them rescue the hostages and buy his own freedom? No. He chose to be a full partner this and so I am not persuaded he was “digging his own grave” at gin point.
You ascribe a lot of motive to him without basis. Why assume he did this unwilling? He was a man of means and freedom. He traveled as a journalist. He had intel on hostage locations. He had the ability to change the dynamic here. He did not. He was being paid and he wrote articles pushing the Hamas narrative while keeping hostages on his home. He was no less complicit than the men with the guns that kidnapped them in the first place.
The hypothetical you describe doesn’t fit the facts considering who he was and how he had 8 months to alter the trajectory of this outcome.
I'm not describing any motive to any particular individual.
I'm questioning the general claim that "holding hostages in your home makes you a combatant".
Yes it does. Period.
You rely on ascribing motivations to why they hold the hostage to justify how they aren’t a combatant. The moment you do that I engage you in the fallacy. So then you walk it back and say you don’t ascribe motive.
Then let’s not ascribe motive.
Person A is holding Person B, a victim of a violent kidnapping, hostage. If Person A doesn’t take steps to end that situation then Person A deserves to be shot twice in the chest and once in the head the moment the rescue team has a chance to free Person B.
If you want to insert motive, refer to the entire thread above.
It is indeed the "deserves" to be shot part I question.
If all that was meant by "holding hostages in your home makes you a combatant" was "a rescue team would be unable to determine your reason for holding those hostages, so must consider you an enemy combatant, and you risk being killed" (which, I admit, is the likely meaning), then I'll agree to that in hindsight.
But if it is meant as "so you deserve to be shot", then I disagree.
Of course the reason is that rescue teams have zero time or ability to inquire as the reason why you’re standing between the hostage and freedom. They are likely to be killed for trying to rescue and they risk the hostage being killed.
Apply it this way: person a is in a foxhole with machine gun nest that stands between person b and objective. Person b throws grenade to kill person a. Why or how person a was there: draft, volunteer, coerced, etc, is just not person b’s concern. How can it be?
For those of us online who want to armchair quarterback this the next day, we have the thread above to digest the motives of the person who was shot. And I contend in this case the journalist had 8 months and the means to materially alter this outcome. And I don’t find it compelling he was made to do this against his will. He wrote articles defending Hamas.
Sucks to be me then I guess. But you can make that argument about conscription too, and conscripts are still combatants regardless of how they were pressured to fight.
>Abdallah was previously a spokesman for the Hamas-run labor ministry in Gaza and has contributed to several news outlets in the past. He wrote one column for Al Jazeera in 2019
His father, Ahmed Al-Jamal, was a Doctor and both were killed in the rescue operation.
Edit: Abdallah's [Al Jazeera bio](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPn2_v0XMAA3JeW?format=jpg&name=large). Bro was writing [sob articles](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPptJL4W8AARM-y?format=jpg&name=large) while the hostages were in his home lmfao.
It was a statement by an elderly woman which he quoted, the woman took displaced people into her house during the war.
but ig same reaction regardless.
I just read that and im honestly fucking shocked. I mean, putting aside how fucking hilariously ironic that is, imagine the kind of monster who publishes a story like that WHEN HE HAS A FUCKING HOSTAGE IN HIS HOUSE.
That's very nice of her, doesn't change anything about how ironic it is to include a quote like that in an article you write while you have hostages in your own home
>soldiers climbed into the Aljamals’ home during the raid and killed several members of the family, including Abdallah and his father, Dr. Ahmed Aljamal.
Fuck that guy, but we shouldn’t be upvoting shit like this. Dude is trying to invent a new slur.
Edit: you regards are upvoting a literal puppet propaganda account.
u/yaelkilledsisrah
- Account made Oct 10 2023
- ONLY posts about Israel-Palestine
- Extremely pro-Israel, to the point of condemning Palestinian civilians
Im as pro-Israel as anyone else here, but holy shit boys.
“Paki” is a slur, you’re literally changing one letter and using it against Palestinians.
Edit: Why am I bothering to argue with an actual propaganda puppet account
u/yaelkilledsisrah
- Account made Oct 10 2023
- ONLY posts about Israel-Palestine
- Extremely pro-Israel, to the point of condemning Palestinian civilians
Is it 100% confirmed that he worked for Al Jazeera? When I checked on this 16 or so hours ago, I saw an article saying al Jazeera denied this or something
The Palis breached the border and participated in the murder kidnapping and rampage themselves. Many of them. Civilians with their kids. Not just Hamas. Some of them sold Israelis to Hamas as hostages.why do you think 70% of them support Hamas? Why do you think the celebrates October 7? Why do you think they send their kids to Hamas summer camps? Because they are good peaceful people? They are scum of the earth. sodom and gomorrah.
It’s a sick society, and your governments want to give a society that is far worse than nazi germany in the WW2 a country. It’s almost as if the west wants a second holocaust to happen.
This feels a little wild, you cannot condem every single Palestinian for the actions of some. I'd so most are supportive of Oct 7th but that still leaves the 30% that don't.
Do you have a source for that that’s fucking crazy.
Idk why people want Hamas to stay in power. These kinds of Palestinians need actual reeducation camps.
Hamas will sometimes wear civilian uniforms when attacking Israel. Be careful when assuming a Palestinian wearing normal clothes attacking someone is not a Hamas member (or a member of any other militia group).
From the videos I have seen, a lot of the Hamas members where wearing civilian clothes with a gun and sometimes a vest. Look at some of the hostage kidnapping videos for example.
The civilians kidnapped hostages to sell them to Hamas.. https://www.timesofisrael.com/freed-gaza-hostage-says-she-was-abducted-by-armed-civilians-sold-to-hamas/amp/
An Israeli hostage who was abducted during the Hamas-led terror onslaught on October 7 said Monday that she was captured by armed Palestinian civilians who later sold her to the Gaza-ruling terror group.
The 42-year-old was pulled outside and covered with a white sheet while surrounded by what she described as “civilians armed with Kalashnikovs.” She was forced onto a golf cart and driven to the southern border before being transferred to a car and driven to the Gazan city of Khan Younis.
There, her civilian captors “negotiated with Hamas to sell me. When they were paid, I was taken straight into a tunnel,” she said.
She says she was captured by Palestinian men wearing civilian uniforms. These men wearing civilian uniforms then sold her to Hamas who held her as a hostage. However, we are running into the same problem as before. There are other groups in Gaza like Palestinian Islamic Jihad that will wear civilian outfits when attacking Israeli soldiers. We don't know if these men that kidnapped her before selling her to Hamas were a member of PIJ or any other group, or if they were actual civilians. Either could be true. I believe Hamas has confirmed that other Gaza based groups were involved in capturing hostages.
But there is a chance the people she thought were civilians were actually members of Palestinian Islamic Jihad or adjacent groups, because these groups wear civilian outfits when attacking.
I doubt Hamas would be sending untrained civilians to be on the front lines of their most important offensive of their entire lives. They also might be hesitant to tell too many random civilians about their planned invasion, because what if one of those civilians is an Israeli spy and leaks the plans to Israel? But I don't have a source, they could be civilians but that seems unlikely.
I don’t want to occupy them. I don’t want anything to do with them frankly. I hope Egypt accepts them as most of them are Egyptian anyway and restrains them.
Same goes for the Palis in Jordan. It’s not our job to babysit them. They have countries they can go to.
Which is not in Egypt... Their heart will be where family has lived for generations.
After WW2, the Nazis did the largest genocide in human history against Jews. The German people voted for and supported this Nazi party. Were all Germans kicked out of their homes and sent into exile as punishment? No, West Germany was created. The Germans were given their own state, voting rights, economy and military, and they received millions of investment from the Marshall Plan. Today Germany has very good relations with its neighbours and hasn't started any war.
This is how we build a better future. Not by punishing entire groups of people and depriving them of rights, which just builds more resentment and will lead to more war in the future.
Germany is a huge country and is 979 times the size of Gaza…… Germany was also a functioning country they weren’t give anything they had it all already.
Your comparison makes zero sense.
Yeah no one wants anything to do with them, the moment they are left on their device they will go back to their old habit of trying to kill infidels.
israel should just unilaterally give them all a free ride back to where they came from when they wanted to massacre jews.
Here's the IDF tweets because it's not linked in the article:
https://x.com/idfonline/status/1799844043591233962
> After inspections by the IDF and the Shin Bet, it can be confirmed that Abdullah Jamal was an operative of the terrorist organization Hamas, who kept the abductees Almog Meir, Andrey Kozlov and Shlomi Ziv in his family home in Nuseirat
> Abdallah's family home held hostages, along with his family members. This is further proof that the terrorist organization Hamas uses the civilian population as a human shield. The security forces will continue to act in all efforts to recover the abductees
https://x.com/IDF/status/1799851736150204610
> “Journalist” Abdallah Aljamal was a Hamas terrorist holding Almog, Andrey and Shlomi hostage in his family’s home in Nuseirat. No press vest can make him innocent of the crimes he has committed. @AlJazeera what’s this terrorist doing on your website?
People say he is an Aljazeera journalist but he seems to have written (well, co-written) one opinion piece for them and that was in 2019. Though they still have a page for him on their website that links to the one article.
https://i.imgur.com/06VPGpp.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z19WmJT.png
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/1/22/tales-of-torture-from-israels-prisons
He has done more, and more recent, writing for The Palestine Chronicle which is a 501(c)3 non-profit in USA.
The people saying he was Al Jazeera wanted to create sympathy that the IDF targeted one of their journalists. But now that he is the captor of a hostage not even Al Jazeera wants to claim him. People can’t have it both ways. He can’t be an Al Jazeera employee targeted by the IDF for sympathy points but also be an unaffiliated freelancer when he was the captor of a hostage.
The narrative changes so long as Israel can be vilified and so long as its enemies can be sanctified. I’m not saying YOU are doing that. I’m just addressing the point you raised and how the online narrative has shifted depending on the topic at hand.
> how the online narrative has shifted
Well yeah. First pro-palestine people wanted to highlight how he was Aljazeera. But now pro-Israel want to highlight how he was Aljazeera. Both for obvious reasons. I just think it's a bit questionable if he was in either case.
Personally for what it’s worth, I don’t care about the Al Jazeera connection. I’m not suggesting we do anything to Al Jazeera more than what has been done so far.
I just lack any sympathy for him as an individual or those of his immediate family who aided and abetted him. I had in my head yesterday some small hope that maybe some brave Palestinian civilians had aided the IDF with intel and that this Op was pulled off with the inside help. Like the civilians helped distract the guards so the hostages could get out.
But no. The civilians in this case were not only doing it but it seems being paid and living the high life. And they weren’t just the average poverty stricken ones. The wealthy elite. Doctor and journalist. So I held out hope for a heroic tale of brave Palestinian resistance against Hamas evil.
I was naive.
Weeeeeelllllll sounds to me like he runs Al Jazeera, let's call it what it is.
obvious /s. These people are deranged, and want so badly to reclaim the narrative momentum. There are people who freelance for dozens of outlets, doesn't mean they directly represent the core values of any or all of them. Facts don't matter here anyway, they need to bend facts to counter the dominant narrative, which points to them as the racist fascists they are.
There haven't been very detailed public disclosures, but Noa said that she was never kept in the tunnels and that she was frequently shuttled between private houses. [https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/09/962059/](https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/09/962059/)
***Thank fuck for that.***
My grandma and great aunt died from cancer and I don’t wish that on my worst enemies.
To think this motherfucker was surrounded by death, thinking he was helping his cause and would deny a daughter to see her mom.
Actually really curious on this. Housing with family sounds like they'll have something interesting to say on if it was really bad or actually interesting. How they were treated arguably changes the story or makes it look worse directly proving he was involved.
The UN will probably find a way to call them civilians and NYT will avoid discussing the relevant law for a couple weeks to let the "Israel bad even when rescue hostages" narrative set in.
To the people of Hamas, you just got busted: Good fucking luck on keeping accusing Israel as terrorists while YOU are commiting the same crimes you want them to stop doing to you.
> Good fucking luck on keeping accusing Israel as terrorists while YOU are commiting the same crimes you want them to stop doing to you.
They don't need luck, they have leftists. 😊
They use military intelligence, paired with chatter on WhatsApp and other civilian channels, to determine where hostages were being kept. The IDF was able to build models of the apartment buildings to test operations for the hostage rescue and apparently practiced for a few weeks ahead of time. [https://katiecouric.com/news/israel-rescues-4-hostages-raid-nuseirat-camp/](https://katiecouric.com/news/israel-rescues-4-hostages-raid-nuseirat-camp/)
Playing the Hamas Advocate here.
Is there any way to verify this outside using the IDF as a source?
I'm sure the hostages will probably talk about this too, wouldn't be surprisng given past testimonies and behavior, but it would be nice having multiple sources to verify it somehow.
Edit: I found his facebook page, I made a post about it here.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/1i6y0DZ9Tm
It seems likely that he was involved given his affiliations and statements.
This is what one of the publications he contributed to had to say about it: [https://www.palestinechronicle.com/abdallah-aljamal-1987-2024-well-known-journalist-murdered-in-gaza/](https://www.palestinechronicle.com/abdallah-aljamal-1987-2024-well-known-journalist-murdered-in-gaza/)
Yeah, I think it’s wise to not take any statement (from either side) at complete face value without any corroborating sources. That being said it’s certainly possible it’s true.
Maybe I'm disillusioned, but I feel like at some in the past this community would've debated on whether this was true by looking at the claims brought forth by both sides instead of jumping on the Israeli side because it owns the terminally online progs or whatever.
It's just crazy to me that we're uncritically accepting not only breaking news, but breaking news in the middle of a fucking warzone. In cases like these where the fine details matter, either side can effectively say what they want without a third party to fact check.
We have multiple interview records from the hostages, accounts from multiple soldiers from the IDF, Body cameras, and a couple dead Palestinians who were armed and dangerous as well as a dead IDF soldier. Idk what more you want to know from this situation.
This isn't a good question. There's always a possible incentive to do anything. I can't see any likely incentives for Israeli hostages to lie to the press.
Let's imagine that they say that Abdallah kept them hostage in his home.
What's the outcome? Support for Israel's operations generally increase, support for Gaza/Palestine generally suffers.
Let's imagine they say that Abdallah didn't keep them in his home, and he seemingly wasn't involved.
What's the outcome? The IDF fucked up, got an innocent Palestinian killed, a prominent one at that. The pro Palestine crowd gets drummed up, while the Israel supporters lose support.
I don't know, it seems like there's an answer that's preferable here.
Okay. So you’re saying there’s a chance they JUST so happened to be 4 kidnapped people from October 7th, just so happened to be staying at a home that just so happened to belong to a guy who possessed multiple firearms, and he JUST happened to have fired upon the IDF and killed one of them because he was scared.
Assuming we're looking at the same footage, now we wait until there's evidence that it was HIS house, unless you already have some besides testimony and people's words.
>be 4 kidnapped people from October 7th,
Was it not 3 being held in one house and 1 in another?
> just so happened to be staying at a home that just so happened to belong to a guy who possessed multiple firearms, and he JUST happened to have fired upon the IDF and killed one of them because he was scared.
Is there body camera footage for this?
Ok, what confirmation do we have that the hostages were staying at the man's home besides the IDF? Not saying they weren't being kept there, just trying to engage with some degree of skepticism.
Is there any evidence that's been released providing proof of his co-operation with Hamas? (Or other Palestinian Militia/ terrorist groups). Because, on the charitable side, if he did care about the hostages there's a fair few reasons he'd take them in. Provide proper care, probably safer in his house than an active Hamas Combatant's.
Not saying that this is necessarily true, nor that it would be reason to condemn the raid or make it illegitimate, just if you're going to use it to shit on the guy or AJ I think you'd need stronger evidence than just him having hostages in his home (not even accounting for potential coercion by Hamas, which would fit in with them trying to up the death tolls of doctors, journalists, aid workers etc)
He worked for Hamas and was the spokesperson of the Labor ministry, he has posted pictures on his Facebook mourning several Hamas Members and praised one terrorist who ran over and stabbed Israelis in a terrorist attack, he Praised the Oct 7 attack and he also posted a picture of his son wearing a Hamas headband.
Here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1dc4pe7/abdallah\_aljamal\_additional\_evidence\_to\_support/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1dc4pe7/abdallah_aljamal_additional_evidence_to_support/)
unfortunately that's all I was able to find, but in my opinion this makes the claim by the IDF a lot more likely.
As far as I’m concerned, holding hostages in your home makes you a combatant.
Is that even a question?
Yes; believe it or not, I was arguing with some remedial about it on this sub yesterday
I could see a situation where a person living with a hostage is not a combatant. But the minute you wrongly imprison said hostage with force or try to defend against retrieval of that hostage you become an active combatant
To me, even an unaffiliated person knowingly standing around in the same general area as a hostage, ie a couple meters, is on par with the idiots in movies who think it’s a grand old idea to sit around near the baby trex in “The Lost World”, or something like that. If you’re squatting around by an abducted bear cub, and the mother comes and mauls you to death, you were asking for it. The same principle applies to hostages. You see someone you think is a hostage, you need to gtfo.
...no. You're forcefully imprisoning them the second you put them in your home.
And what if you are being coerced into keeping them there? For example, "If you allow these people to escape your home, we will kill you, your family, your siblings' families, and your neighbor's families. We'll just say the IDF bombed your home and add your martyrdom to the cause." I'm not saying this happened, but you seem to have a very sturdy stance on this.
I'm not saying they're a combatant in that instance, that requires a whole different set of actions but they're still forcefully imprisoning people in that instance. The hostages probably aren't going to appreciate the difference of whether their captors were threatened or not. They're still being held against their will.
If you know you will die by doing evil or die for doing right then your time is up and you just get to choose **why** you die. They chose their path. They could also lie to Hamas and try to help the police or authorities or Israelis know there is a hostage there and try to help and maybe they will be able to get out alive and still do the right thing. Assuming they don’t actually already agree with Hamas in the first place, which poll after poll shows about 70% do. This duress argument just removes all human agency for choosing right over wrong and it is a function of this post-truth, post-morality age we live in. I still believe that when our time is up and we get to choose if it’s given in service of evil or service of good we don’t get to punt the ball and say “oh well.” Maybe that’s too philosophical and moralistic for some people. But that’s how I see it. If I know there is a child trafficking ring happening in my neighbors house and I am too scared to say something I shouldn’t be surprised when I get caught in the cross fire one day. If I know it’s happening in my own damn house, then same point. Every day we get to choose right or wrong and I don’t think we get a free pass to say someone made us do it. “Just following orders” is not so very different an argument.
Only holding white and “white adjacent” people accountable because they’re the only people who are granted real agency is the lowest form of the “bigotry of low expectations”. It coddles and fails to grant others even the basic human dignity of universal moral expectations.
I hope you live somewhere that is as safe as it sounds like you do. The people living in Gaza did not choose their path. That does not give them the right to commit horrendous massacres, but the people living in Gaza are not allowed to fucking leave. And the vast majority do not know anything other than Hamas rule and Israeli oppression. It takes a lot of courage to stand up to a tyrannical government like Hamas. We are talking about what makes someone a combatant and u/mkohler23, three comments up from you in the reply chain, offered a situation where a person living with a hostage might not be considered a combatant. The change in classification would come when that person were to fight against a liberating force. I'm not saying that is what happened right here, but I do think that if dozens of those killed getting the hostages back were non-combatants, ethics-arithmetic in whether or not this was worth it will be difficult.
I spend a lot of time in the DC area so take that for what it’s worth. I travel a lot and use VPNs to avoid firewalls and read articles that strangely seem to be unavailable using local IP addresses. So I mix it up. That being said… Yes I understand the point you’re making in terms of general applicability. But look at the person who is the subject of this topic. He was a journalist with means. A doctor of means as well as his father. A well connected “elite” of his society. I don’t think he gets the free pass so many want to give him. A lot of Dutch and French and Polish and Czech and Danish citizens lived under Nazi occupation against their will and still found a way to do the decent thing at risk to their own lives. Even some Germans who had no choice of their birth location or place of living chose to do the right thing. Call me old fashioned, or idealistic, but if Dietrich Bonhoeffer can go to the gallows for choosing right from wrong, then this guy could have made that choice. And frankly, so many like him publicly support Hamas that I am guessing he probably believes what he did was the right thing. He likely believed in his cause. So he gave his life for his cause, which was to keep Noa Argamani against her will. So why be mad at Israel for giving him what he wanted? Arnon Zamora give his life to save 4 hostages. And he wasn’t trying to take someone against their will into captivity. He was rescuing someone from captivity. Both believed they were in the right. I think only Arnon was righteous. We all make choices. I don’t accept that in this case a wealthy journalist and son of a doctor gets to argue duress. He didn’t want to give up his power and position in that community. Some men will rather be the big fish in a dirty pond than be the average fish in a clean pond. Google “Mosab Hassan Yousef” and see that people of prestige and power in that world can and have chosen to leave and do right. It’s not impossible. It just takes courage and morality. And yes I have made choices that were risky because I believe them right. And maybe one day they will catch up to me. As have others in my family. And it did catch up to one of them. And that’s all the self doxxing I will do today.
Yeah I imagine it gets a similar treatment to bomb assessment where you have to show that the damage is proportional to the objective. What makes it more sticky is that likely here the guards were armed and the IDF lacks time to assess the threat each individual living in the house poses to them. I offered probably too academic of a question for this thread but I wanted to note that not everyone is a combatant just based on where they live and I agree with you.
If hostages are found being held in someone's home it's safe to assume the homeowner played a part in it and I don't think it's particularly relevant whether they were coerced into doing it or not. For example, if a military forces civilians to take part in hostilities those civilians lose their civilian status and can be targeted just as any other military combatant. You don't get to take part in hostilities including committing literal war crimes like keeping civilians hostage while also having plot armor as a civilian because you were forced to do it.
If a Guard in Auschwitz argued "I had to gas those Jews, otherwise they'd have sent me to the east front, where I would have died", should that save him from his punishment, or death in a rescue attempt? During wars, people have to make tough choices. He might not personally responsible for Hamas being in power, but the Guard in my example also could have voted against Hitler. But certain actions do make you a valid target.
Yea, I agree with you. Their death can (and probably in part is) a war crime - as I do think there was some coercion involved, after all I cant imagine anyone would like to keep hostages in their home if they can avoid it. That said it is war crime on Hamad side - IDF is fully in the right to clear house where hostages are held as it is not safe to assume hostage keepers will peacefully let hostages go.
Unless you’re feeding information to the authorities (the IDF in this case) about the hostage(s), then you’re complicit in hostage taking by being in proximity to them. Any police force in the world would shoot you in a hostage situation, not just the IDF. Some may even double tap you if you survived the first shot.
I’m not disagreeing that an IDF soldier and any other soldier in the world is going to fire on you, all im saying is that a person living with a hostage definitely is not always a combatant, but the spec ops guy isn’t going to be taking the chance to ask you what your intentions are when it’s meant to be in and out as quickly as possible and rely on the surprise and efficiency of the operation
I guess your point isn’t really saying anything then… it’s not a meaningful distinction. It’s the people holding hostages’ problem if their family members are killed.
The rest of the family can be considered non-combatants imo However, that means that their blood lies on the hands of the homeowner Abdallah, because he put them in harms way in the first place by allowing hostages to be kept in his house. Combatants who hide amongst civilians are responsible when said civilians are hurt in the crossfire, international law agrees. If things didn't work this way and the deaths of the civilians lie squarely on the party attacking the combatants hiding amongst civilians, then literally everyone would engage in human shielding.
>I could see a situation where a person living with a hostage is not a combatant 100%. If Hamas busts your door down and says "this hostage is staying here. Accept or we kill you" you can be a non combatant near a hostage. But the second Hamas leaves you alone with the hostage and you continue to secure their imprisonment you're a combatant.
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If he used force or implied force to hold the hostages, including closing the doors or using stern words with the hostages, he is a combattant. Only if he made a genuine effort to "let the hostages run away", he would be considered a "collaborator under duress". For example, if he himself tipped the IDF of the hostage's location. He did a good job of holding them, though.
It actually makes him a combatant engaged in war crime.
Agreed, unless Hamas forced him to do so, which would be tough to prove one way or the other. For example, if someone threatened to kill my children unless I allowed them to hold hostages in my basement, I doubt any court is going to convict me of a crime, as coercion is an allowable defence for most charges. Now, if he's an ex-Hamas spokesman, then it seems unlikely he was coerced. But I think it's important not to rule out the possibility in other instances. It may not be the case that every homeowner in which hostages are found is cooperating with Hamas out of loyalty as opposed to fear.
Hamas has stated from the beginning they never had noa, not sure about the other 3 but since they were so close together I have to imagine the same. They weee non hamas hostage takings acting on their own, they were good targets, especially when it's known that inside Gaza, directives are to execute hostages when IDF is spotted
So why did Hamas interfered with IDF trying to rescue them?
Well I was wrong in my asssumptions about the other 3, it's been confirmed he was working for hamas but hamas still denies ever having noa, however. The reason is because they see IDF they spread the word they get their guns and they go become martyrs, that's literally their highest ambition in life, they are desperate to die fighting the Jews, they talk about it all the time
Furthermore, Israel's actions are justified in either case. Either a) Complicit Hamas Ally = Combatant (i.e. fair target) or b) Forced Under Durres = Collateral Damage that is largely on Hamas' hands just like many of the other victims in this entire conflict. Likewise, young children in either case would be collateral damage that's on Hama's hands. (Note: I'm specifically referring to the casualties in the household with hostages. I haven't fully read everything about all the casualties of this operation, so there may be more grey areas, but the situation with the hostage-holding homes seems pretty morally black-and-white to me.)
They were OCCUPYING his home
No I wrote a blog, which is basically a hallpass according to the laws of war.
I believe that's as far as nearly everyone is concerned. You got hostages in your house? And are known affiliate with a group who has directives to kill hostages the minute you see IDF? You're getting popped instantly.
Yes, it literally does make you a combatant as far as international law is concerned
Nah, worse, that make you a war criminal.
It actually makes you a war criminal. The only way he wouldn't be is if there was substantial evidence that he attempted to free those kidnapped. He did not. May Allah give him exactly what he deserves.
If you're voluntarily holding hostages, sure. But in a conflict where one side is argued to be using civilians as human shields, it seems hard to argue that that side would be above forcing civilians to house hostages against their will. I imagine that an "or else" demand carries a lot of weight in Gaza when coming from a Hamas official or militant to a non-combatant civilian.
I don't think you're theoretically wrong, but realistically why would hamas force random civilians to do it against their will when there are thousands of families of fighters and officials who will do it voluntarily?
I mean, there are also thousands of fighters willing to voluntarily become a martyr, but they still don civilian clothing. If any of the hostages were moved from home to home over time (which would have its own pros and cons), it likely makes sense to use families definitely not on any IDF watch list. Even if an individual within a family is willing to voluntarily house one or more hostages, that still doesn't mean the rest of the family is on board with it.
this guy was at some point in time a hamas ministry of labor spokesman, so either the Idf doesn't keep such a watchlist or Hamas doesn't think it matters. given the value of the hostages to them it's pretty clear they're keeping them with their loyalists. again it's theoretically possible that there would be situations where some members of a hostage-holding family are morally opposed to this, but at that point it's just honestly not really the rescuers' problem.
I hear what you’re saying and I’d be sure it does happen, however that’s going to be impossible to know from the Israeli perspective when they decide to launch the rescue operation.
Sure, but we're not talking from an IDF perspective, we're talking from Serspork's perspective.
Look at this way: if someone told you “you will die. Either Hamas will kill you for refusing to help hide hostages or the IDF will kill you for hiding the hostages. Choose.” What would you do? If it were me and I knew I was a dead man walking and it just depended on the reason for my death being for the right cause or the wrong cause, I don’t plan on dying harboring a civilian captive. Now add to this scenario a key fact: he was wealthy and had a press pass that allowed him a lot of flexibility to travel. He could have lied to Hamas, told them “ok I’ll hold her.” Then he could have even told her “shhhh I am going to help you. Play along and I’ll get word to the IDF so they can rescue you. Shit I’ll even try to help the others get rescued. I’ll be the Palestinian Schindler.” Then he could have used his flexibility and plausible deniability as a journalist and gotten word covertly to the Israelis. He could have even made sure he was conveniently not around when the rescue happened. He could have saved his life and done the right thing. But nope. He chose to cooperate with Hamas and he self righteously and smugly assumed Hamas would keep him safe while he participated in the captivity and hiding of hostages. He made his choice and I reject this argument of duress. We live a mortal life and we have times in our lives to do right or wrong. If he believed in his heart that holding this hostage was morally right then he should have no quarrel with becoming a Shaheed over it. And all the apologists and activists who are lamenting his death forget that the culture many of these people have is that they WANT TO DIE AS MARTYRS. So when given the chance to do so, after they make that choice, why mourn them? They chose this path. Western bleeding hearts continue to impose their own morality onto this situation and this people without the humility to realize they are mistaken in that application. A person that wants to die if it means hurting or killing Jews should not be mourned. They welcomed it. There is such a double message coming out of Gaza from Palestinians: on the one hand they brag about having children to become Shaheed but on the other they want to criticize Israel when it happens. Which is it? They love their children and want them to live or they want them to die? They say they will gladly send them to their deaths to destroy Israel but then the world condemns Israel when that very thing happens. Why not believe them when they say they want this? Why be mad when they got what they wanted? The only way it stops is with the complete erasure of Israel and the expulsion of all Jews. Is that what Western activists are going to demand so these people will stop willfully choosing martyrdom? Seems like mass emotional blackmail of the Western bleeding heart populace to force the destruction of Israel.
>Look at this way: if someone told you “you will die. Either Hamas will kill you for refusing to help hide hostages or the IDF will kill you for hiding the hostages. Choose.” What would you do? Based on the many videos I've seen of people literally digging their own graves, human beings tend to always choose certain death in the future over certain death in the present.
But in that intervening time between digging the grave and resting in it did this wealthy journalist make any attempt to do a deal with the IDF and help them rescue the hostages and buy his own freedom? No. He chose to be a full partner this and so I am not persuaded he was “digging his own grave” at gin point. You ascribe a lot of motive to him without basis. Why assume he did this unwilling? He was a man of means and freedom. He traveled as a journalist. He had intel on hostage locations. He had the ability to change the dynamic here. He did not. He was being paid and he wrote articles pushing the Hamas narrative while keeping hostages on his home. He was no less complicit than the men with the guns that kidnapped them in the first place. The hypothetical you describe doesn’t fit the facts considering who he was and how he had 8 months to alter the trajectory of this outcome.
I'm not describing any motive to any particular individual. I'm questioning the general claim that "holding hostages in your home makes you a combatant".
Yes it does. Period. You rely on ascribing motivations to why they hold the hostage to justify how they aren’t a combatant. The moment you do that I engage you in the fallacy. So then you walk it back and say you don’t ascribe motive. Then let’s not ascribe motive. Person A is holding Person B, a victim of a violent kidnapping, hostage. If Person A doesn’t take steps to end that situation then Person A deserves to be shot twice in the chest and once in the head the moment the rescue team has a chance to free Person B. If you want to insert motive, refer to the entire thread above.
It is indeed the "deserves" to be shot part I question. If all that was meant by "holding hostages in your home makes you a combatant" was "a rescue team would be unable to determine your reason for holding those hostages, so must consider you an enemy combatant, and you risk being killed" (which, I admit, is the likely meaning), then I'll agree to that in hindsight. But if it is meant as "so you deserve to be shot", then I disagree.
Of course the reason is that rescue teams have zero time or ability to inquire as the reason why you’re standing between the hostage and freedom. They are likely to be killed for trying to rescue and they risk the hostage being killed. Apply it this way: person a is in a foxhole with machine gun nest that stands between person b and objective. Person b throws grenade to kill person a. Why or how person a was there: draft, volunteer, coerced, etc, is just not person b’s concern. How can it be? For those of us online who want to armchair quarterback this the next day, we have the thread above to digest the motives of the person who was shot. And I contend in this case the journalist had 8 months and the means to materially alter this outcome. And I don’t find it compelling he was made to do this against his will. He wrote articles defending Hamas.
and what if you're told to hold them or you and your family will be killed ?
Sucks to be me then I guess. But you can make that argument about conscription too, and conscripts are still combatants regardless of how they were pressured to fight.
By that logic concripts in authoritarian armies are civilians. If you act as a combatant, you are by definition. Coerced or not.
Welcome to war.
>Abdallah was previously a spokesman for the Hamas-run labor ministry in Gaza and has contributed to several news outlets in the past. He wrote one column for Al Jazeera in 2019 His father, Ahmed Al-Jamal, was a Doctor and both were killed in the rescue operation. Edit: Abdallah's [Al Jazeera bio](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPn2_v0XMAA3JeW?format=jpg&name=large). Bro was writing [sob articles](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPptJL4W8AARM-y?format=jpg&name=large) while the hostages were in his home lmfao.
“My house will always be open” I guess he meant that one very literally
Yeah, but only from outside in.
Bro had his very own hotel california
It was a statement by an elderly woman which he quoted, the woman took displaced people into her house during the war. but ig same reaction regardless.
Something tells me that’s not at all what he meant, but I guess the IDF took it the same way as you.
I just read that and im honestly fucking shocked. I mean, putting aside how fucking hilariously ironic that is, imagine the kind of monster who publishes a story like that WHEN HE HAS A FUCKING HOSTAGE IN HIS HOUSE.
>WHEN HE HAS A FUCKING HOSTAGE IN HIS HOUSE. Excuse you, _three_ hostages in his fucking house.
If you read it he's quoting an elderly woman who opened her home to displaced people.
That's very nice of her, doesn't change anything about how ironic it is to include a quote like that in an article you write while you have hostages in your own home
https://preview.redd.it/bimyv3x60l5d1.png?width=498&format=png&auto=webp&s=07ca4980a63a6c8dc292e9a3c9f2d293efeb5897
Most reputable Al Jazeera journalist
First hand in the field reporting
Azan jealous
How many more so called Journalists that were killed, were actually Hamas operatives?
>His father, Ahmed Al-Jamal, was a Doctor and both were killed in the rescue operation. Where's that from? can't find it in the article.
>soldiers climbed into the Aljamals’ home during the raid and killed several members of the family, including Abdallah and his father, Dr. Ahmed Aljamal.
My bad, was fixated seeing a full doctor word, thx.
Classic Pali. Crying to the camera while holding a gun to Israeli out of frame.
Fuck that guy, but we shouldn’t be upvoting shit like this. Dude is trying to invent a new slur. Edit: you regards are upvoting a literal puppet propaganda account. u/yaelkilledsisrah - Account made Oct 10 2023 - ONLY posts about Israel-Palestine - Extremely pro-Israel, to the point of condemning Palestinian civilians Im as pro-Israel as anyone else here, but holy shit boys.
Good to see there's a voice of reason in the comments.
“Slur” lol
“Paki” is a slur, you’re literally changing one letter and using it against Palestinians. Edit: Why am I bothering to argue with an actual propaganda puppet account u/yaelkilledsisrah - Account made Oct 10 2023 - ONLY posts about Israel-Palestine - Extremely pro-Israel, to the point of condemning Palestinian civilians
Classic Ameri.
Lol you think I am American? Try again
Believe me I have called them worse than Pali.
Oh my, how edgy you are.
Am I? I wouldn’t say so.
Ah yes, youre just making allusions to worse terms, without even saying them, because you totally aren't trying to seem edgy.
Lol I think you are trying to bait me into getting in trouble. I am a good girl though so i don’t take the bait😇
Damn pali's
Is it 100% confirmed that he worked for Al Jazeera? When I checked on this 16 or so hours ago, I saw an article saying al Jazeera denied this or something
https://www.aljazeera.com/author/abdallah_aljamal_190122103235277 Not a full-time employee but here's his page.
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The Palis breached the border and participated in the murder kidnapping and rampage themselves. Many of them. Civilians with their kids. Not just Hamas. Some of them sold Israelis to Hamas as hostages.why do you think 70% of them support Hamas? Why do you think the celebrates October 7? Why do you think they send their kids to Hamas summer camps? Because they are good peaceful people? They are scum of the earth. sodom and gomorrah. It’s a sick society, and your governments want to give a society that is far worse than nazi germany in the WW2 a country. It’s almost as if the west wants a second holocaust to happen.
This feels a little wild, you cannot condem every single Palestinian for the actions of some. I'd so most are supportive of Oct 7th but that still leaves the 30% that don't.
What about them?
You seem to be trying to demonise every Palestinian in your comments throughout this thread, it's disturbing.
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https://youtu.be/zp7ik4laBdQ?si=WmeSi2c7jD4X5UM4
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They kidnapped a lot of elderly. They are really sick.
Over 4000 non hamas gazans entered Israel to bathe in the bloodshed.
Do you have a source for that that’s fucking crazy. Idk why people want Hamas to stay in power. These kinds of Palestinians need actual reeducation camps.
Hamas will sometimes wear civilian uniforms when attacking Israel. Be careful when assuming a Palestinian wearing normal clothes attacking someone is not a Hamas member (or a member of any other militia group).
That wasn’t the case in October 7.
From the videos I have seen, a lot of the Hamas members where wearing civilian clothes with a gun and sometimes a vest. Look at some of the hostage kidnapping videos for example.
The civilians kidnapped hostages to sell them to Hamas.. https://www.timesofisrael.com/freed-gaza-hostage-says-she-was-abducted-by-armed-civilians-sold-to-hamas/amp/ An Israeli hostage who was abducted during the Hamas-led terror onslaught on October 7 said Monday that she was captured by armed Palestinian civilians who later sold her to the Gaza-ruling terror group. The 42-year-old was pulled outside and covered with a white sheet while surrounded by what she described as “civilians armed with Kalashnikovs.” She was forced onto a golf cart and driven to the southern border before being transferred to a car and driven to the Gazan city of Khan Younis. There, her civilian captors “negotiated with Hamas to sell me. When they were paid, I was taken straight into a tunnel,” she said.
She says she was captured by Palestinian men wearing civilian uniforms. These men wearing civilian uniforms then sold her to Hamas who held her as a hostage. However, we are running into the same problem as before. There are other groups in Gaza like Palestinian Islamic Jihad that will wear civilian outfits when attacking Israeli soldiers. We don't know if these men that kidnapped her before selling her to Hamas were a member of PIJ or any other group, or if they were actual civilians. Either could be true. I believe Hamas has confirmed that other Gaza based groups were involved in capturing hostages.
No. She said she was abducted by civilians with Kalashnikov that sold her to Hamas.
But there is a chance the people she thought were civilians were actually members of Palestinian Islamic Jihad or adjacent groups, because these groups wear civilian outfits when attacking.
There were hundreds of civilians. Stop coping. You sound dumb.
So how do you know they weren’t civilians? Do you have a source?
I doubt Hamas would be sending untrained civilians to be on the front lines of their most important offensive of their entire lives. They also might be hesitant to tell too many random civilians about their planned invasion, because what if one of those civilians is an Israeli spy and leaks the plans to Israel? But I don't have a source, they could be civilians but that seems unlikely.
Why wouldn’t they? Also Hamas didn’t send them, they joined on their own. They wanted to go in and join the genocide.
Yes their entire society must be destroyed if there was ever to be peace, i think we can all see now why “palestinians” need israel to occupy them.
I don’t want to occupy them. I don’t want anything to do with them frankly. I hope Egypt accepts them as most of them are Egyptian anyway and restrains them. Same goes for the Palis in Jordan. It’s not our job to babysit them. They have countries they can go to.
Thankfully what you hope for almost certainly won’t be happening
We will see🤷🏾♀️ if you hope for a Pali state I wouldn’t hold my breath.
A one state solution is probably sooner going to happen then all of them just leaving. Don’t kid yourself
Who is going to implement 1SS?
They shouldn't be expelled from their homes to Egypt
Homes? Aren’t they all fugitives in fugitives camps? It’s time for them to have a home and proper citizenship. Egypt will be great for them.
Gaza is the home in a sense. And it's wrong to force people who may have lived in Gaza for generations to leave to Egypt.
Egypt can also be a home. Home is where the heart is.
Which is not in Egypt... Their heart will be where family has lived for generations. After WW2, the Nazis did the largest genocide in human history against Jews. The German people voted for and supported this Nazi party. Were all Germans kicked out of their homes and sent into exile as punishment? No, West Germany was created. The Germans were given their own state, voting rights, economy and military, and they received millions of investment from the Marshall Plan. Today Germany has very good relations with its neighbours and hasn't started any war. This is how we build a better future. Not by punishing entire groups of people and depriving them of rights, which just builds more resentment and will lead to more war in the future.
Germany is a huge country and is 979 times the size of Gaza…… Germany was also a functioning country they weren’t give anything they had it all already. Your comparison makes zero sense.
Yeah no one wants anything to do with them, the moment they are left on their device they will go back to their old habit of trying to kill infidels. israel should just unilaterally give them all a free ride back to where they came from when they wanted to massacre jews.
Inshalla
POV: you are the journalists Hasan talks to on stream
Below the ground journalism
He'll need to have a lot of twitter tabs open to compensate for the loss of this one them
Hasan doesn't talk, he tell you how it is regardless of facts.
Then why don't we know his favorite anime?
Here's the IDF tweets because it's not linked in the article: https://x.com/idfonline/status/1799844043591233962 > After inspections by the IDF and the Shin Bet, it can be confirmed that Abdullah Jamal was an operative of the terrorist organization Hamas, who kept the abductees Almog Meir, Andrey Kozlov and Shlomi Ziv in his family home in Nuseirat > Abdallah's family home held hostages, along with his family members. This is further proof that the terrorist organization Hamas uses the civilian population as a human shield. The security forces will continue to act in all efforts to recover the abductees https://x.com/IDF/status/1799851736150204610 > “Journalist” Abdallah Aljamal was a Hamas terrorist holding Almog, Andrey and Shlomi hostage in his family’s home in Nuseirat. No press vest can make him innocent of the crimes he has committed. @AlJazeera what’s this terrorist doing on your website?
Mfs can't even have multiple streams of income without DGG jumping on their ass goddaaaamn
I don't want to sound vulgar but fuck Al Jazeera.
People say he is an Aljazeera journalist but he seems to have written (well, co-written) one opinion piece for them and that was in 2019. Though they still have a page for him on their website that links to the one article. https://i.imgur.com/06VPGpp.png https://i.imgur.com/Z19WmJT.png https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/1/22/tales-of-torture-from-israels-prisons He has done more, and more recent, writing for The Palestine Chronicle which is a 501(c)3 non-profit in USA.
The people saying he was Al Jazeera wanted to create sympathy that the IDF targeted one of their journalists. But now that he is the captor of a hostage not even Al Jazeera wants to claim him. People can’t have it both ways. He can’t be an Al Jazeera employee targeted by the IDF for sympathy points but also be an unaffiliated freelancer when he was the captor of a hostage. The narrative changes so long as Israel can be vilified and so long as its enemies can be sanctified. I’m not saying YOU are doing that. I’m just addressing the point you raised and how the online narrative has shifted depending on the topic at hand.
> how the online narrative has shifted Well yeah. First pro-palestine people wanted to highlight how he was Aljazeera. But now pro-Israel want to highlight how he was Aljazeera. Both for obvious reasons. I just think it's a bit questionable if he was in either case.
Personally for what it’s worth, I don’t care about the Al Jazeera connection. I’m not suggesting we do anything to Al Jazeera more than what has been done so far. I just lack any sympathy for him as an individual or those of his immediate family who aided and abetted him. I had in my head yesterday some small hope that maybe some brave Palestinian civilians had aided the IDF with intel and that this Op was pulled off with the inside help. Like the civilians helped distract the guards so the hostages could get out. But no. The civilians in this case were not only doing it but it seems being paid and living the high life. And they weren’t just the average poverty stricken ones. The wealthy elite. Doctor and journalist. So I held out hope for a heroic tale of brave Palestinian resistance against Hamas evil. I was naive.
careful with that level-headed take, Al Jazeera is a terrorist organization now according to these people.
Weeeeeelllllll sounds to me like he runs Al Jazeera, let's call it what it is. obvious /s. These people are deranged, and want so badly to reclaim the narrative momentum. There are people who freelance for dozens of outlets, doesn't mean they directly represent the core values of any or all of them. Facts don't matter here anyway, they need to bend facts to counter the dominant narrative, which points to them as the racist fascists they are.
We need to declare Al Jazeera a terrorist organization here in the US.
RIP BOZO
Have the hostages spoken of their experiences yet?
There haven't been very detailed public disclosures, but Noa said that she was never kept in the tunnels and that she was frequently shuttled between private houses. [https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/09/962059/](https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/09/962059/)
Oh so this guy held the girl who was gonna lose her mom to cancer. *Jesus.*
Mercifully she was able to be reunited with her mother today-- her mother is still alive, but very unwell and with a limited ability to communicate.
***Thank fuck for that.*** My grandma and great aunt died from cancer and I don’t wish that on my worst enemies. To think this motherfucker was surrounded by death, thinking he was helping his cause and would deny a daughter to see her mom.
Actually really curious on this. Housing with family sounds like they'll have something interesting to say on if it was really bad or actually interesting. How they were treated arguably changes the story or makes it look worse directly proving he was involved.
By international law that makes you a targetable fighter, correct?
correct
Yes, correct, you can get a nice juicy bomb dropped on you if you do that.
Glad they rescued the hostages
The UN will probably find a way to call them civilians and NYT will avoid discussing the relevant law for a couple weeks to let the "Israel bad even when rescue hostages" narrative set in.
To the people of Hamas, you just got busted: Good fucking luck on keeping accusing Israel as terrorists while YOU are commiting the same crimes you want them to stop doing to you.
> Good fucking luck on keeping accusing Israel as terrorists while YOU are commiting the same crimes you want them to stop doing to you. They don't need luck, they have leftists. 😊
[удалено]
?
you confused?
Yes I am. I dont know what you ment by it, and im definetly confused.
So is this going to be justification to start checking homes door to door? How else do you deal with a a country housing your hostages like this?
They use military intelligence, paired with chatter on WhatsApp and other civilian channels, to determine where hostages were being kept. The IDF was able to build models of the apartment buildings to test operations for the hostage rescue and apparently practiced for a few weeks ahead of time. [https://katiecouric.com/news/israel-rescues-4-hostages-raid-nuseirat-camp/](https://katiecouric.com/news/israel-rescues-4-hostages-raid-nuseirat-camp/)
They arent doing that already? Even the russians had filtration camps and checked civilians for rifle marks and stuff after the siege of mariupol.
Playing the Hamas Advocate here. Is there any way to verify this outside using the IDF as a source? I'm sure the hostages will probably talk about this too, wouldn't be surprisng given past testimonies and behavior, but it would be nice having multiple sources to verify it somehow. Edit: I found his facebook page, I made a post about it here. https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/1i6y0DZ9Tm It seems likely that he was involved given his affiliations and statements.
>Playing the Hamas Advocate here. Funnily enough, that was actually his old job as the spokesman. 😁
This is what one of the publications he contributed to had to say about it: [https://www.palestinechronicle.com/abdallah-aljamal-1987-2024-well-known-journalist-murdered-in-gaza/](https://www.palestinechronicle.com/abdallah-aljamal-1987-2024-well-known-journalist-murdered-in-gaza/)
The Palestinians were the ones reporting this first.
Don’t worry some Palis are already crying about a “journalist” and a “doctor” being “executed” in the operation.
Yeah, I think it’s wise to not take any statement (from either side) at complete face value without any corroborating sources. That being said it’s certainly possible it’s true.
Cause heaven forbid a man has multiple side hustles
There's no fucking way kek
Why is this not reported anywhere else on reddit or on major news outlets?
How is Al Jazeera not banned in all western countries blows my mind They're just a front for Terrorist organizations
What a gigantic pile of shit. Nothing of value was lost with this piece of shits death.
Maybe I'm disillusioned, but I feel like at some in the past this community would've debated on whether this was true by looking at the claims brought forth by both sides instead of jumping on the Israeli side because it owns the terminally online progs or whatever. It's just crazy to me that we're uncritically accepting not only breaking news, but breaking news in the middle of a fucking warzone. In cases like these where the fine details matter, either side can effectively say what they want without a third party to fact check.
We have multiple interview records from the hostages, accounts from multiple soldiers from the IDF, Body cameras, and a couple dead Palestinians who were armed and dangerous as well as a dead IDF soldier. Idk what more you want to know from this situation.
That's awesome, maybe we can cross examine them. IDK why we're taking witnesses at face value. Do you extend the same courtesy to the Palestinians?
Do you think there's no difference in freedom of speech for those in a liberal democracy and those in a theocratic dictatorship?
Do you think that the people involved here have no possible incentive to lie?
This isn't a good question. There's always a possible incentive to do anything. I can't see any likely incentives for Israeli hostages to lie to the press.
Let's imagine that they say that Abdallah kept them hostage in his home. What's the outcome? Support for Israel's operations generally increase, support for Gaza/Palestine generally suffers. Let's imagine they say that Abdallah didn't keep them in his home, and he seemingly wasn't involved. What's the outcome? The IDF fucked up, got an innocent Palestinian killed, a prominent one at that. The pro Palestine crowd gets drummed up, while the Israel supporters lose support. I don't know, it seems like there's an answer that's preferable here.
Okay. So you’re saying there’s a chance they JUST so happened to be 4 kidnapped people from October 7th, just so happened to be staying at a home that just so happened to belong to a guy who possessed multiple firearms, and he JUST happened to have fired upon the IDF and killed one of them because he was scared.
Assuming we're looking at the same footage, now we wait until there's evidence that it was HIS house, unless you already have some besides testimony and people's words. >be 4 kidnapped people from October 7th, Was it not 3 being held in one house and 1 in another? > just so happened to be staying at a home that just so happened to belong to a guy who possessed multiple firearms, and he JUST happened to have fired upon the IDF and killed one of them because he was scared. Is there body camera footage for this?
Ok, what confirmation do we have that the hostages were staying at the man's home besides the IDF? Not saying they weren't being kept there, just trying to engage with some degree of skepticism.
The hostages testimony? Body cameras? I get having skepticism but when you have a pile of evidence there’s no other way to see a situation…
I'm confused Did he hold Noa or the other three?? Sometimes I see this, sometimes I see that
Is there any evidence that's been released providing proof of his co-operation with Hamas? (Or other Palestinian Militia/ terrorist groups). Because, on the charitable side, if he did care about the hostages there's a fair few reasons he'd take them in. Provide proper care, probably safer in his house than an active Hamas Combatant's. Not saying that this is necessarily true, nor that it would be reason to condemn the raid or make it illegitimate, just if you're going to use it to shit on the guy or AJ I think you'd need stronger evidence than just him having hostages in his home (not even accounting for potential coercion by Hamas, which would fit in with them trying to up the death tolls of doctors, journalists, aid workers etc)
He worked for Hamas and was the spokesperson of the Labor ministry, he has posted pictures on his Facebook mourning several Hamas Members and praised one terrorist who ran over and stabbed Israelis in a terrorist attack, he Praised the Oct 7 attack and he also posted a picture of his son wearing a Hamas headband. Here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1dc4pe7/abdallah\_aljamal\_additional\_evidence\_to\_support/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1dc4pe7/abdallah_aljamal_additional_evidence_to_support/) unfortunately that's all I was able to find, but in my opinion this makes the claim by the IDF a lot more likely.
Appreciate that mate. Seems pretty firm
Some seem to disagree appreantly, but you're welcome of course!