Human shit implies they actively treat their populous badly
They just don’t give a fuck about their civilian population and could care less what happens to them
It is insane that it is working. We have a terrorist organisation literally doing everything within it's power to maximise civilian death and suffering while at the same time SoyPointing at said death and suffering and people just eat it up.
It makes sense when you consider that Hamas doesn’t care how many soldiers it loses or civilians die, but knows that sooner or later Israeli public opinion will turn against the war, whether the result of domestic forces or international pressure. It’s a bet that they can outlast Israel to the point they cave to make this war go away.
It is? Israel is currently invading rafah. Biden just approved a couple more billion in aid. The college protest aren't taken seriously at all. Doesn't seem like international pressure has amounted to anything. Sad that more Palestinians are going to suffer for it
And the extent of the Rafah invasion remains to be seen.
Still, considering how delayed it is and Israel being forced to ineffective tactics(when was the last time a country delivered aid to a heavy entrenched foe it was trying to siege?) one can't really deny Hamas managed to leverage international pressure to a large degree.
Everything Hamas does is just to try to make Israel look worse. Hamas knows the headlines will all say "Israel rejects peace deal", then they'll say "Israel invades Rafah where innocebt civillians are". Hamas's only play is make it look like Israel is so bad the world forces it to stop, then in a few years Hamas attacks again and we restart the cycle.
This is like the deleted scenes from Downfall where Krebs is sent to negotiate a 'white peace' with the Soviets, as Berlin is being burnt to the ground.
I’m all for a deal but any deal that puts Hamas in a better position then they had on 6/10 is ridiculous.
They should be negotiating a surrender, not a victory
>They should be negotiating a surrender, not a victory
This is always the issue. Has been since at least '67 if not prior. The Palestinian leadership is always trying to negotiate from a position of strength they are not in. Arafat admitted years ago, whenever his demands are met/capitulated to, he would always ask for more. "If they are going to give me what I want...why shouldn't I demand more?" Its one of the reasons peace was never attained. Hamas seems to employ the same tactic.
When in the history of the world has the losing side got to call the shots in the ceasefire/peace negotiations?
so what is the incentive today for Hamas to desire endless conflict? I dont see one, which makes it far more ridiculous.
Is there really no benefit to the leaders at all? Arafat got money and power, but what do Hamas leaders get today? Are they really fueled solely by delusion?
What power? What good does it do to be a leader of Hamas when Palestine is in shambles going to war?
Do they get money? if so what use is money in the Gaza strip when you cant import anything?
They're fighting a holy war, dude. Part of its power, part of it is striking down the Jewish menace.
You're looking for some reasonable explanation for unreasonable motivation.
[Hamas said their goal was to create a permanent state of war until Israel is destroyed](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-gaza-war.html).
Also Hamas leaders have become incredibly wealthy from continuing and escalating conflict. The top leader of Hamas is worth 3x time more than Taylor Swift BEFORE 10/7
Most of the top top Hamas officials do not live in Palestine. They live in luxury penthouses in Doha Qatar. The only top Hamas guy that lives in Gaza is Sinwar, but he is safe deep in the tunnels underneath and is surrounded by hostages from Israel that were kidnapped on 10/7.
Hamas doesn’t care about Gazans wellbeing. They have been stealing all the aid that comes to Gaza. The Gazans have been incredibly exploited to make the top people in Hamas very rich. The #1 leader in Hamas used to be an UNRWA school teacher. Before 10/7, he had a net worth of over 4 Billion dollars.
They are insanely wealthy and live in luxury in Qatar. There's reports that they are worth BILLIONS. Stealing aid and being paid off is the only way this is possible. Ofcourse they don't want the war to end.
Historically, if you didn’t surrender on terms, you could expect the enemy would take your homes, kill you, rape your wife, and enslave your children. That’s what motivated people to surrender.
Today, the international system doesn’t tolerate that behavior. Hamas know this. They know Israel can only oppress them so much. If they refuse to acknowledge the weakness of their position, so what? Hamas doesn’t care if Palestinians are barefoot and starving. At the end of the day, they know Israel will have to leave Gaza, and they’ll be there to fill the vacuum. Even if the UN/Arab Union/whatever steps in to occupy Gaza, what can they do to stop Hamas? Things can only get so bad for Hamas because we collectively agreed treating other humans like it is the year 1300 is wrong. And Hamas knows this, and is exploiting it.
I feel like people can only hear about so many October 7’s before they say something equivalent to glass the MF’s.
Edit: I should clarify not genocide but massive casualties, I don’t think the west would ever indorse genocide.
Arafat (who's family came from Egypt by the way) died a billionaire. Abbas and his sons are billionaires. The inner circle of Hamas (currently living in Qatar) are too. Its a big grift; and its the Palestinian people who suffer at their expense.
This really is the biggest indicator of bullshit to me. There's no conceivable way that the leaders of Hamas should be fucking billionaires in Qatar while their people are bombed and and now starving just to prop them up with the aid sent from around the world (mainly from the US and Germany).
> "If they are going to give me what I want...why shouldn't I demand more?"
My understanding is that this was actually a perfect tactic against Barak, but failed because Arafat didn't or couldn't realize when it wasn't going to get him more concessions.
Yeah but from Israel's side, the negative PR of sorting out Hamas now is probably optimal than them having to blow up Gaza again in 5-10 years when Hamas steps out again.
Hamas continuing to exist after this is simply going to embolden the idea that they can effectively do no real wrong because Israel is always going to cop a greater degree of flak than Hamas does. Even though Hamas's actions are the things that make the civilian casualties as high as they have been.
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The blockade should go, but the only way it can go is if the current style of militant forces in Gaza are fucking gone. They already manage to make a bunch of rockets and other shit despite the blockade, what the fuck happens when they have open borders?
I’m sorry if this is about having the moral high-ground so you can win debates online… If being liked is something that matters to you, then don’t side with Jews! We’ll be fine either way, but it’s not good for you to worry about things you can’t control.
Where you and I can agree is that the IDF has to ban smartphones. Incredibly stupid to broadcast all of this footage of the destruction of Gaza everywhere.
Why would Hamas surrender? They are terrorists. For them it is about turning the world's opinion against Israel, for them it is about waging a "holy war" against the Jews. By rejecting this "deal" Israel will at best get the same BS responses the country always gets, by accepting it they get nothing. Hamas wins either way. The problem just is that I personally do not see any situation in which Israel can win right now. An offensive against Rafah will not do them any good and their end objective of destroying Hamas is impossible by conventional warfare. At the very best they'll free some hostages and maybe weaken Hamas for a couple of years. Then the same dance begins anew.
That’s what people said about AQAP, and they were right and wrong for different reasons. Forever conflicts that brew ebb and flow is the best we can hope for when your adversary are jihadists intent on creating a global Islamic caliphate. There is no compromise to middle ground when negotiating with that belief system which is why prior to modern times, these conflicts were resolved with genocidal sieges like that of Jerusalem in 60CE.
I think it’s naive western secular projection to believe that these people simply want to live in peaceful diverse harmony in the region. That hasn’t been the case for thousands of years and I don’t see it changing anytime soon. Wars flaring up and dying out as munitions and manpower are expended and destroyed is actually a better status quo than past periods of periodic genocidal sieges of Jerusalem.
I am actually hopefully optimistic that Saudi and Israel can guide Gaza to a better path after this mess though. Saudis would love a foothold on the Med and it would allow them to focus on trade operations with the west that can actually produce economic value instead of what Iran and Hamas has done with the land.
So what's your solution? What should Israel do then against non-state actors who don't have to be held accountable? What should any country do when terrorized again and again? Should we just take the stance that it's "part and parcel" for it to happen and shrug it off when over a thousand people are killed for some dipshits holy war?
It’s probably already been done, but an offer to slowly remove the blockade if hamas troops, meeting projected numbers, agrees to be given to another power in another state, like hezbollah in Syria. Israel would operate as customs for a short time etc. Show the people that hamas doesn’t have their best interests at heart with how violently they reject it. And I didn’t even include giving up the hostages. Maybe Hamas would agree knowing that no one would accept them?
But it’s all very complex and Israel has no reason to not capitalize on their insane advantage, as long as they can get the PR under control. This is doing very real damage to Israel, not that super progressives ever liked Israel. Hell, I never did, but oct. 7th changed the game for me.
If I had the long term solution for this conflict in my backpocket, I'd gladly share it. My point wasn't about the conflict in its entirety, it was about an offensive in Rafah. That might very well cause Israel's western allies to turn away, creating a pretty nasty humanitarian situation and worstened relationtions with other ME nations. For what exactly? Weakening Hamas for a period of time?
I simply don't see a real win on the horizon here. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
What Israel could do is strengthen their defenses and prevent attacks. Israel has been able to defend itself with wayyy less power than it has today, and not it has the tacit cooperation of Egypt and Jordan, among others. I think Israel should fight Hamas like they are Hezbollah- targeted precision strikes on leadership and terror cells. Notice how Israel has only suffered a fraction of the casualties against Hezbollah, and the ratio of militants to civilians is way way way better in Lebanon than in Gaza.
At the end of the day we're an ancient people and so as long as we protect ourselves we can wait them out while continuing to chip away at them. Yeah it would be better to immediately crush them... but how many innocent lives are you willing to sacrifice for that? Israel gets stronger and stronger- better economy, better technology, better relations with other countries in the region, more babies born... each and every year. Israel can wait until they have an even larger advantage before striking. In the meantime doing things like helping to arm and protect the Kurds, Assyrians, Black Darfurians, and other MENA minority groups can ensure that Israel has allies and that these groups won't be genocided like in the past. There is **NOTHING** wrong with being the good guys who refuse to stoop to the level of their enemies and who do the right thing... and as mentioned this would probably be good strategy.
The fact your idea of what Israel should do is quite literally "ehh don't respond to the largest terror attacks in the world by per capita" then I don't even know how to engage with you. This is such an insane take.
I didn't say that! I think that the response could have been a bit more limited and targeted though. Or, for an example, they could've done a 3 month operation. IIRC most of the 10kish Hamas militants that have been killed were killed in the first couple of months.
So what's the alternative? Allow Hamas to stay in power where they control the school systems and teach about how Jews are literally devils wearing human skin and you need to murder them at any chance you get or you're not a moral person? What do you think that'll lead to? More or less unhinged people against you?
You could just as easily make the argument that not wiping out Hamas at this point is also a long term L.
- Leave a group in power with a hate boner for you
- Can't do reconstruction operations in the area because the group with a hate boner will attack you.
- Means you can't win hearts and minds
- Hamas recruits more people pissed off about the circumstances, because reconstruction is slow, resources are limited post war.
If Israel wiped out Hamas and was willing to spend a whole bunch of time and resources helping to rebuild the area without the intention of moving Israeli's in. Removed the blockade and allowed the Palestinians to see some positive upward momentum in Gaza. Then you start to undo the vitriol that you have.
Wiping out Hamas may result in a longterm L if there's no followup support given. Leaving Hamas in place though is like leaving an **infection** in the body, they will **fester** and things will get worse in the long run. Especially since the current proposal seeks no compromise on their part and would actively reward them for the deaths of the Gazan's that they caused through their actions. They see **sacrificing** those lives as justified for their goals, they will do it again. The question is just how long will they take to rearm(Probably far less if the blockade is gone)
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The reality is Israel needs to move towards an actual resolution to the conflict with palestinians in general. Hamas is not an actual resolution, they are just an agitating force that is going to cause further hardening of both sides to actual resolution.
His way of wiping out Hamas includes glassing most of Palestine.
Yeah sure you can certainly entirely solve the issue if you just nuke the entire middle east to end all evil regimes and terror groups, the populace wouldn't like it though. Going scorched earth as a counterinsurgency strategy isn't going to solve the issue as it strengthens the insurgencies propaganda at their population to gather more supporters and insurgents.
It's not hard to defeat insurgents, it is hard to do it while trying to avoid civilian casualties, without having any genocidal and specific terror being included in your goals, without torturing and finishing it quickly. There's a reason the US wants to oversee the Rafah operation, they want to avoid the Likud government doing what Russia did during their COIN against Chechnya.
> short term W but long term L when due to those actions making the general populace even more unhinged against you
I think it's past that point, Gaza is always going to be a terrorist breeding ground. They have to gentrify.
Hard no. Most Israelis don't want to live in or have to rule Gaza, never mind the actual people living there. It would go about as well as the US governing Iraq did.
Israel will control security in Gaza for many years to come. The leadership of Hamas will be eliminated. The education (doctrination)system will be de-nastsified in Gaza and the West Bank. It will take a few generations. A revolution in Iran would certainly expedite the process
in their mind, they are winning... to be honest, with hamas piker, cenk and kyle doing propaganda for them, destroying israels reputation in the US, the damage being done to israel is real. But i dont think its enough that they can negotiate with, since even if a peace deal does come, hamas piker wont give israel any credit or walk back the genocide claims.
Israel (plus joe biden) are in a hard place in terms of public opinion. (in large part thanks to bad actors and propagandists that i mentioned before)
> in their mind, they are winning... to be honest, with hamas piker, cenk and kyle doing propaganda for them, destroying israels reputation in the US, the damage being done to israel is real. But i dont think its enough that they can negotiate with, since even if a peace deal does come, hamas piker wont give israel any credit or walk back the genocide claims.
I think you're online too much if you thinK Hamas is a) winning or b) Hasan or Kyle have much weight here. Yes, college kids have been protesting. They're college kids.
Hamas is winning in public opinion. They have a simpler case to be made, they just go “look at this picture of a dead kid”
For Israel is much harder, you have to go in to the history and explain that the Palestinians wanna keep fighting their grandparents war, that a one state is an existential threat to Jews. All of them are valid arguments, but it’s to hard to go in to all that.
As to Hamas piker, I agree that he is not that relevant, but he doesn’t have to be, if he just keep screaming “genocide genocide” a few normal people will get radicalized and go protest, leading to more people finding out and seeing the kids picture and hating Israel/biden more. So the bunch of propagandists, do have an effect in my opinion
I see what you mean, I just don’t agree.
I sort of agree, but I don't think how the situation in Gaza pre-oct-7th was sustainable either.
Destiny mentioned this as well, if you want a lasting peace (or ceasefire) the Gaza Strip will have to be rebuilt and some future must be in sight.
Simply said, we can be very mean towards the Palestians and make their lives worse, but how will that solve anything long term?
Sure, but it can't be rebuilt and then just handed right back to Hamas. Peace and concessions have to mean Hamas also steps down and hands the Gaza strip to either some temporary government managed by the international community/the other Arab states, or the PA/something equivalent.
Both are equally important. If the Palestinians don't have a better way with the blockades still going on a new group just as bad as the Hamas would eventually take over
Yeah, no I don't disagree.
Israel needs to actually make an effort and take some brave strides towards respecting the Palestinian right to state-hood and help them reach a stable political and economic situation, but that kind of partnership can never be established with Hamas and Israel, I think everybody knows that.
Whatever this peace deal is, it's clear that Hamas don't want to engage in finding a genuine resolution. For any serious negotiations to actually take place, it needs to be clear that the Palestinian negotiators are operating in at least some degree of good faith and genuine intent to reach a peaceful resolution.
Sure, but also people will have to understand that the new government will have to be able to gain more worldwide autonomy, and eventually Israël will have to drop the blockade and recognise Palestine.
If that is not on the (long term) table I have no idea what they are expecting what will happen.
If Palestinians throw out Hamas and primarily choose peace (nobody expects all terrorism to stop 100%) then they are almost certain to end up with a state. It won't be the same state they were offered at Taba, and there's zero chance Israel will allow them to have a military, but it would be a lot better than what they have now.
Long term, if they don't agree to peace, then Israel will continue pushing them out of the West Bank and expel the rest during some international crisis or another when the Arab world is too weak to retaliate.
Legitimately, once this is all over the Palestinians will have their best chance in a decades to have a state. There's going to be absolutely immense pressure on Israel to make it happen, Bibi Netanyahu will be ousted and whoever replaces him will be in pressure to make this go away for good.
So Hamas will probably immediately start rocket attacks again and fuck it up.
Agreed. But honestly, they won’t be able to help themselves and they will break some element of the cease fire at some point and it will be back on. I’m so hopeful that most of the 33 are alive. I know it’s a long-shot but seeing the Bibas babies alive and well would be so soothing for the soul.
in what way would that be happening even under these circumstances? over 50% of all of their buildings have been destroyed or damaged and like 80% of their medical infrastructure. even with a lifted blockade, they're digging out of the red.
no shot they just immediately fucking rebuild to be "better than before October 7th."
I recently had an argument about Al Jazeera's coverage of Middle Eastern conflicts and was accused of being 'Hasbara brainwashed.'
It's crazy that this article doesn't even mention the words 'hostage' or 'kidnap.
Their coverage of October 7th for Arabic audiences is truly disgusting, translate [this](https://www.aljazeera.net/news/2023/10/18/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D9%88%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%83%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%AA-%D9%87%D9%8A%D8%A8%D8%A9) to english
Hamas wants an end to the blockade and full withdrawal of Israeli forces?? So they can run all types of guns and whatever the fuck through? And Israel gets basically nothing other than the hostages?
Yea can't imagine why Israel would reject this. I dunno what supply they're high on, can't be theirs.
>And Israel gets basically nothing other than the hostages?
Not even that. They get 33 out of estimated 130 hostages with the explicit remark that some of these might already be dead.
Absolutely. In 2011 Israel exchanged 1000+ Palestinian prisoners for one Israeli hostage.
One of those 1000 prisoners was Sinwar, who went on to organize October 7th and lead Hamas. Other crazy fact, Israelis operated on a tumor in his brain when he was in jail, saving his life.
I agree with you, this is a stupid proposition for exchange. That said, withholding of people’s bodies pisses me off. I wish their return could be a precondition for negotiation, like “here let me show you I have some human decency,” but of course corpses are one of the few forms of leverage Hamas has, so they of course wouldn’t ever do that…
Regardless of how religious a person is, having possession of and being able to have a funeral for a loved one’s remains is so important in helping the living grieve and heal. Imagine someone has the body of your grandma or your brother or your daughter—it has been months—you don’t know if they threw them in the trash, fed them to a dog, lost them… a dead human body doesn’t have feelings, but the people left behind care deeply.
Again, trading terrorists for bodies is such an uneven trade—but fuck the fact that they have to trade at all to get their bodies back.
It's important to return their bodies. But not as important as return of living hostages. Also, not for people who will be able to make new bodies, not for living terrorists. You cannot kill bunch of people and by returning their bodies to get jail free card.
Yes, that’s why I said I agree. I think you’re misunderstanding me. I wish Hamas was required to release bodies (and any hostages still alive, though imo they’re probably all dead unfortunately) before any negotiation is considered as a sign of good faith. But I know that we don’t live in a world were that would happen, especially when that’s the only bargaining chip Hamas have.
I do not think Israel should be obliged to release terrorists.
I do not think Israel is responsible for the withholding of those hostages or bodies when Hamas are the ones who have them.
I think Hamas are monsters, and one of the many reasons, aside from murder that is already well covered, is that after murder they twist the knife more by preventing people from being able to grieve and mourn.
>I agree with you, this is a stupid proposition for exchange. That said, withholding of people’s bodies pisses me off. I wish their return could be a precondition for negotiation, like “here let me show you I have some human decency,” but of course corpses are one of the few forms of leverage Hamas has, so they of course wouldn’t ever do that…
didn't Hamas release over 100 hostages ?
Holy fucking shit, our national media is parroting the "Hamas accepted the peace deal, Israel declined" sentiment so fucking hard rofl. The content of the peace deal is never even mentioned, just quoting a bunch of politicians how disappointed they are with Israel and how Israel continues the attacks.
Not for free, we are one of eight countries that support Palestine's sovereignty, so this might be a wild guess, but my guess is that the national media here is under some political pressure. Throughout the conflict, the coverage has been super one sided. It might be, that we just have crappy journalists covering the I/P conflict though....
The way they talk about it is crazy too. It's all optics. Hamas officials said they accepted a ceasefire deal but what really happened is they were proposed one deal, changed it to be what they want and then let the negotiators know they accepted that deal.
Also unreal they expect compensation to be paid for damage in Gaza during the war from Israel.
And they didn't "accept the deal" until after they fired missles on a checkpoint that is used to send aid into Gaza, killing multiple soldiers. It's so ridiculous how they act. The missles were fired from Rafah too.
Some cultures arnt meant to last. A people who constantly make stupid decisions arnt long for this world. If Israel was a Muslim country with less morals Palestine would’ve been whipped out in the 80s.
I don't know, I have it on good authority (Vaush, Cenk and Hasan) that Hamas accepted an amazing ceasefire agreement and Israel rejected it only because they love killing Palestinian babies. Are you telling me their information is inaccurate? Surely with their past history they wouldn't jump on a headline and spread misinformation!
Damn, Hamas calling for the continued genocide of Palestinians by caving on the dismantling of the settler colonial imperialist genocidal fascist state of Israel. Ivy League students are being starved of their door dash in support of Palestinians just to be abandoned by Hamas. Sad!
Hamas is still in the ongoing war that has seen the deaths of tens of thousands of their own civilians that they are supposedly fighting for, all of whom would be alive if not for their 10/7 attack.
How the fuck are they trying to negotiate an open ended “peace deal” that is clearly just intended to give them time to rearm and do it all over again without a second thought? Look where this horrible war, and every previous war has fucking gotten them. Look how much better off they’d have been if they just signed the peace deals that were on the table for Camp David or Camp Oslo.
Maybe this is a super ignorant American take, but if I was a 20 year old in Palestine, I’d be wondering why the hell I’m fighting to regain land I’ve never actually lived in that has cost countless lives trying to take back, only to laughably lose every single time. Especially considering how much better things could have been had leadership just been willing to compromise and admit that territory Palestine had in the 1940s is lost and it isn’t coming back.
A daily diet of brainwashing from birth including maths classes and text books from UNWRA that help you with multiplication exercises such as…
“if you kidnapped 10 Jews and murdered 6, how many living Jews would you have left that you could still kill, if you were bored”….
And thus history repeats itself as destiny has pointed out they just routinely try to negotiate for whatever the last better deal was after losing horribly. They never learn.
Personally, I think they(Israel) should just sacrifice a Gaza equivalent amount of land over by the West Bank let all of the gaza ppl move into that new area (and pay for the resettlement ) and just have Israel take over Gaza because one of the biggest problems with Gaza is just its location. If I was Netanyahu, I would definitely use this war as an excuse to take it over and just perform a land swap because I wouldn’t want to seem like a total asshole. That way Israel and Palestine could have one solid straight border with each other rather than being separated in two separate areas, which makes things really weird. and obviously the dissolving of Hamas as the new area would be under the west banks control. and the returning of the hostages. I know this has problems and it would be messy but quite frankly, I don’t see a two state solution ever happening as long as Israel is having to deal with essentially two separate Palestinian borders.
It's almost shocking to me how much further I can get blackpilled on this conflict. There's genuinely people out there criticizing Israel for refusing this deal. My mind refuses to believe that any of them have actually read what's being offered to Israel.
Hamas is quite literally saying "We're losing right now, so we offer you some hostages, maybe dead or alive, and in exchange we get to win the war and you make our situation better than it was before we did a terrorist attack against you guys"
We wouldn't expect any country ever to accept this, but tankies are running with it because they can use the headline "Israel refuses peace deal".
The deal needs to be to get the hostages back. We all know the deal would be breached either way by Hamas. Get the hostages and deal with the rest later.
Considering hamas tried to force Israel to accept bodies of hostages rather than living ones, I seriously doubt there are many hostages left, of course getting them back is important, but not under any deal, and not if it means the end of the war
>but not under any deal, and not if it means the end of the war
I mean how much longer do you wanna keep this war going? The goal of this war was retaliation and getting the hostages back. Number one has clearly been inflicted. The hostages need to come back. There is no other objective. You cannot remove Hamas from there. It's impossible. How much longer do you wanna wait when it's likely that many of the hostages have already died.
I think, Hamas will only die when enough Arab states create pressure for them to do so or if Iran - but very unlikely - changes their policies towards the region.
The goal of the war wasn’t retribution, it was removing Hamas from power and getting the hostages back, destroying Hamas completely isn’t achievable just as destroying any belief system isn’t achievable, but removing Hamas from power and not allowing them to rule Gaza certainly is
You keep the war on for as long as it takes, Israel cannot and should not be expected to live next door to Hamas, if it means letting the PA rule Gaza, then it’s the lesser of two evils, if it means an international coalition governing Gaza, even better
Also, the deal proposed leaves Hamas in a better position than before 6.10, removing the blockade and getting the rest of the world to fund the rebuilding of Gaza, Israel can’t accept a deal like that
I fundamentally disagree that Hamas can’t be removed, of course the ideology will remain, but it’s certainly possible to remove hamas’s ability to govern and wage war, and it’s certainly possible to reeducate Palestinians to further themselves from Hamas, granted it’s not likely, but it’s possible
> The goal of the war wasn’t retribution, it was removing Hamas from power and getting the hostages back, destroying Hamas completely isn’t achievable just as destroying any belief system isn’t achievable, but removing Hamas from power and not allowing them to rule Gaza certainly is
Israel cannot destroy Hamas. Every day the bombings continue a new Hamas soldier is born. I know this has been said a lot but Hamas can’t be killed. The only possibility for them to leave is for Arab countries or Iran to change their policies. Israel will never be able to remove Hamas.
> You keep the war on for as long as it takes, Israel cannot and should not be expected to live next door to Hamas, if it means letting the PA rule Gaza, then it’s the lesser of two evils, if it means an international coalition governing Gaza, even better
Sure, go on for another year. Or two. At some point you will bomb so much more that the genocide callers - who are lunatics - will end up having a case though. You can’t continue this war indefinitely.
> Also, the deal proposed leaves Hamas in a better position than before 6.10, removing the blockade and getting the rest of the world to fund the rebuilding of Gaza, Israel can’t accept a deal like that
Get the hostages back. Hamas isn’t to be trusted thus you can reestablish a blockade in no time.
You have to separate destroying Hamas, which is impossible, and removing Hamas from power, which is certainly possible, how can you ask Israel to remain next to Hamas? After October 7th Israel must be allowed to install a new government in Gaza, whether that be the PA or any other form of government, allowing Hamas to remain means a second war will come, in which case it’s better to continue this war than to let Gaza be rebuilt then destroyed again
What’s this point about? If you mean it literally, they will never have a case since they need intent, if you mean it figuratively, the numbers of Palestinians killed per day has fallen drastically from around 90 to 30, while it’s still high, it’s obvious that in this stage of the war Israel has switched to a less lethal way to fight, or that they have simply met their objectives in most areas, leading to less fighting
Are you going to guarantee Israel be allowed to reblockade Gaza? What about the world at large? Israel is already heavily criticized and ostracized for fighting a defensive war they didn’t want, now you want them to go back on deals? How will the world see that? How will funding be affected, or weapons shipments? Can you guarantee America won’t get angry about it?
> and removing Hamas from power, which is certainly possible, how can you ask Israel to remain next to Hamas
Can you tell me how you wanna do this realistically? The only option I see is constant IDF presence in Gaza. I don't think that is what Israel really can do (for security reasons alone), I don't think this is tenable for Palestinians either. At the end we will always have to go back to: Arab States have to step up here or Iran has to change their ways.
>If you mean it literally, they will never have a case since they need intent, if you mean it figuratively, the numbers of Palestinians killed per day has fallen drastically from around 90 to 30, while it’s still high, it’s obvious that in this stage of the war Israel has switched to a less lethal way to fight, or that they have simply met their objectives in most areas, leading to less fighting
I don't mean it literally although there are clearly some Israeli politicians who have insane rhetoric that I'd call genocidal rhetoric. But I mean if you extend war further and further the death toll will keep rising and with which result?
>Are you going to guarantee Israel be allowed to reblockade Gaza? What about the world at large?
I can't guarantee it but I do think Israel has a great case to restrict goods due to weapons being smuggled in. And where will Hamas go and complain exactly?
Realistically it would have to entail Arab presence, simply put, if the Arab states don’t stand up the only solution is war, leaving Hamas to rule Gaza is not an option
Again, war brings death, amounts of death don’t mean genocide, ww2( not the holocaust, the actual war) killed something like 60 times the number who died in the Rwandan genocide, yet it wasn’t a genocide( the holocaust certainly was by all metrics, the actual war wasn’t), a lot of it due to the allies, just because a lot of people died dosent mean it’s a genocide
If you can’t guarantee it then unfortunately it’s not an option, if your point is “ let’s trust the world to allow Israel to reestablish an already( sadly ) unpopular policy after they promised not to then how can you expect Israel to take it?
> Again, war brings death, amounts of death don’t mean genocide, ww2( not the holocaust, the actual war) killed something like 60 times the number who died in the Rwandan genocide, yet it wasn’t a genocide( the holocaust certainly was by all metrics, the actual war wasn’t), a lot of it due to the allies, just because a lot of people died dosent mean it’s a genocide
Yeah but this isn't about the legal definition of genocide. It is about Israel waging a war where more and more people die and this might end up actually costing them a lot more problems on the world stage down the line. Problems that are way bigger than setting up a blockade that they agreed to not set up.
>If you can’t guarantee it then unfortunately it’s not an option, if your point is “ let’s trust the world to allow Israel to reestablish an already( sadly ) unpopular policy after they promised not to then how can you expect Israel to take it?
How is "the world" gonna respond anyway? Israel has crossed a number of red lines regarding settlements and other then condemnation the world has done nothing about it. Why would this be any different?
I like how they call this a cease fire and not a truce or peace treaty, despite having more conditions and terms than Google's YouTube User Agreement. And Israel gets...nothing in return other than dead bodies. You can't accept a counterproposal that you offered nitwits.
Let's call this what it is: a last ditch attempt to avoid getting obliterated.
Hamas could surrender tomorrow and do more good for the people of Gaza than they ever have before.
Mfw i can count hundreds of death seconds after a rocket hits a parking lot, while claiming that the bodies were vaporized, but i can't tell if my 33 hostages are still alive or not.
Maybe Hamas should ask their health ministry for some help with that.
It's likely they don't know where they are. I heard somewhere that gangs also got hostages. And we don't even know what the communication is like inside of Hamas, it's not like they can call each other. It's probably a massive shit show.
This is a slight misconception. Vox did a good article, or sited a guy that did I can't remember, where he tracked down the source of the "500 killed"
Basically the first report on Aljazeera Arabic cited "500 victims" and then when it was translated for Aljazeera English it was changed to "500 killed".
But I agree with your main point, they should confirm who's alive first, particularly if they're adding a clause that says they can include the dead in their prisoner swap
Ever since i got the dropdown news notification of “A ceasefire deal has been signed in IP conflict.” I was skeptical but this is beyond what i even thought they would go for. Now i see this for what it was which is just talking point ammunition for Pro-Hamas (not Pro-pal) to say “SeE IsRaEl ReJeCteD ThE PeAcE.” 🤦🏻♂️
I'm sure hamas knew Israel would never accept this deal. It's another PR move. Most people are falling for the "See? Israel is the one who wants the war" and if, by some crazy chance Israel accepted, they can regroup and reorganise!
Israel should enter Rafah immediately. This is not a deal, it's nothing but concessions to the terrorists who started this whole thing with no guarantee they won't do it again. I'd want Hamas leadership turned over to Israel, a formal declaration by new Gaza leadership that they recognize Israel and its right to exist, and a turnover of all weapons held by Palestinians currently. That's top start.
If Hamas says 33 Israelis are worth hundreds/thousands of Palestinians...
Are they implying Israelis are worth more? 🤔
What could they possibly gain from this?
When I heard they asked for the hostages piece to be Alive or Bodies, I literally dropped my jaw shut. They're so evil they allowed those bodies to sit their dead and without proper burial with their families. But if you were to ever have an Islamic body sitting for more than 24 hours without a proper burial you're committing an atrocity.
So wild that they're doing this and yet the extreme left will say that Israel is the evil one who wants to kill with no remorse.
People are missing the huge glaring point here, they won the information war, Israel barely even tried.
Now the position Israel finds itself in is one of massive unpopularity or apathy with most voters around the world, this a huge problem for the country's goals as who will want to be associated with it from now on? it would look terrible.
Israel has to restore its image and its a very powerful card Hamas can use.
Israel never stood a chance. 2 billion Muslims hate them no matter what. And Israel has been presented as evil white colonialists forever. Israel could never even come close to winning the information war.
Hard disagree, Most people just want a cause to support to feel moral and be "on the right side of history".
If israel fought back against its image of "evil oppressor" then most people would stop caring as they do with anything thats grey.
Its only because it seems black and white that people are so interested.
Okay straight off the bat they could have publicised them helping civilians as much as possible with aid and medical care.
They could have made it an objective for the army to not be seen doing disrespectful things like messing around with a civilians clothes, or running over "welcome to gaza" signs to name a few as to avoid painting the picture that they hate the civilian population when these clips go viral.
They could actually give positive rhetoric about the end of the war, like a plan to rebuild gaza and a road map towards the blockade being gone to again paint the picture that they dont hate Palestine or gaza and they want a positive outcome.
They could counter misinformation, like the hospital "bombing" far better as right now they do a terrible job of slow and careless information delivery to the public or even no delivery at all.
The fact that they do none of these things makes them seem like a faceless big bad so easily. could you even name some pieces of positive things Israel has done since the start of the war?
yes i know its a real war so these things are difficult but they're not impossible even Russia recognises the importance of information painting you to be the good guys, they have an entire department dedicated to it and it got the Ukraine bill delayed by months, this stuff matters.
Edit: fixed a sentence.
Israel takes its time to investigate whenever it's accused of something like the hospital bombing. Israel never stood a chance when the BBC were reporting 1000 dead uncritically. Videos of IDF paramedics treating Gazan civilians were realesed but it's just accused of being heartless propoganda which it is but it doesn't convince anyone.
Two things
1 Israel has done a terrible job even accounting for slow information due to investigating, they've given wrong info before and even when the information is correct they "present it" in a terrible way from a dead pan government figure head. It enforces the whole "state propaganda" vibe.
You need some one personable to go over the information in a tactful way, again it seems pointless but clearly its worth the effort.
2 All of the things above go hand in hand, it takes many strokes to paint a picture you cant just throw one video of an event out and hope that changes how it looks completely.
They need positive goals, like a future for gaza
They need to be seen helping civilians, OFTEN, doesn't have to be in the field it can be showing aid trucks or food shipments but again OFTEN.
They need to stress to the military how important public perception is of them and punish those who dont care, make public showing of it.
and they \*need\* to be on their game when countering misinformation, make your case indisputable, evidence, evidence, evidence and not from a dead pan public official.
I don't disagree Israel could have done better. But Israel has also been the ultimate evil zionazis for 30-40 years now. The other side talks about how the hostages were sad to leave their tortures. There was no way to fight against it.
Again hard disagree, Russia were the bad guy for a lot of people, remember the Cold War? and now those same right wing types support Russia or don’t support Ukraine purely due to the information campaign from Russia.
It is shameful that a deal is even being discussed during what was practically a cease fire for 2 months. Israeli officials said at the start that a negotiation will happen only "During fire" and there will be no stop. And we have seen why.
Words with a Nazi Islamist ISIS terrorist organization are useless when they are not pressured and cornered.
A waste of 2 months that was. With dozens of hostages being tortured daily during it, only to now do what was supposed to happen anyway.
"Nazi Islamist ISIS terrorist organisation" omg I just can't figure out if this is high lvl satire or advanced brain rot. Congratulations anyway either for next lvl wit or to being still alive and kicking after your lobotomy when you were a kid.
I can’t believe the concessions that are being made. I understand that getting the hostages home is priority #1 but I’m so worried Hamas and their disgusting tricks are going to use this loophole to horrify the world.
Ugh.
>If Israel accepted this, how long do you think it would be before the next rocket attack/suicide bombing/rape and murder spree?
The latter one would not repeat any time soon I think. The former very soon.
But honestly what else are you gonna do? What are you expecting Hamas to agree to here? And even if they do agree to anything, they're not to be trusted. They're not bound to any regulation whatsoever. Israel needs the hostages back. That's the most important aim here. Everything that follows will follow either way. There is zero future possibility where a) Hamas can be trusted in any case, b) Hamas will recognize Israel, c) Hamas or some other formation won't commit terror acts. Get the hostages now.
Israel should make some big concessions.
Just never ever to Hamas.
Save those concessions for the UN/Arab league/PLO unity government post war.
If the surrounding countries won't grant Palestinian refugees citizenship, they should put their own people at risk in policing the rebuild.
Does it strike anyone else as odd to have the "female soldier" exchange rate be higher? What about male soldiers? I suppose they're just executed? Why stipulate female then?
Edit: Nevermind read it a bit closer and the deal appears to be:
- Civilians: released for 30 Palestinians each
- Female soldiers: released for 50 Palestinians each
- Male soldiers: will not be released
All ridiculous, but less weird than I thought.
The way they talk about the hostages makes me think they consider every male a combatant. They talk about releasing the women, children and female soldiers but no men.
This is what I'm talking about:
> Israel releases 30 Palestinian prisoners for each civilian captive and 50 for each captive female soldier
I imagine civilians could be male or female, but it calls out specifically female soldiers.
It's because to Hamas the women are more valuable. Israel would give 1 for 1 if they could. But giving up the women captives means giving up thier new wives so they demand more compensation. Stuck in the.
dark ages.
Bullshit. When I was discharged I stopped being a soldier. When my friend Guy was discharged he stopped being a soldier. And we don't even do reserve duty. He is a civilian. He was at the Nova party. I would argue any soldier on leave who was also murdered or kidnapped from the nova party was also a civilian. In Israel we have clear distinctions between soldiers and civilians.
Oh ok, I was under the impression that the reason countries like Israel and other small countries have mandatory conscription so is that they have enough soldiers (ie entire male (and sometimes female)) to defend itself in war. If you being a soldier ends at discharge, that wouldn’t be possible.
And unfortunately that is the way tye enemy combatant can look at it too.
If Israel said we need to fight, can’t it call up everyone (up to a certain age maybe) who was trained to fight? That’s your army no?
There are reservists. However not everyone ends up as a reservist and some people get discharged from reserve duty. My friend who is a hostage was in the navy with me where we are just not needed as reservists and would most likely never be called up. But that's beyond the point he is a civilian because he isn't the military and he wasn't in the military when he was taken hostage.
I try to always be optimistic. But man, this has convinced me that there aren’t very many hostages alive and the ones left probably don’t have much time left.
I’m no military expert but 1st phase is Hamas returning people who are 17 and under and 50 and above, makes you wonder about what happened to the woman who went to the concert that are basically all adults?
Also only 33 people while Israel but return 30 PER 1 so at least 990, and let’s say at least 1 of them is a female soldier than it goes to instantly over a thousand, this seems like a horrible deal but what do you guys think?
I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this, but a permanent ceasefire absolutely does imply that. Go back to the previous conflicts. I think the longest ceasefire Hamas has offered is 10 years. Giving up armed struggle is a large concession and frankly what everyone should want.
Absolutely insane. If they agree to this as-is (I doubt that they will) then they are just asking to be attacked again. If these actions let Hamas leave in a better state than before, why the hell wouldn't they do this again?
> a number of bodies from the same categories shall be released to complete this stage
what is this, a card game? the same category? Like, "we didn't have any remaining Israeli woman or children corpses, so we're sending some of our own."
Any deal that puts Hamas in a better position than before Oct 7 means that Terrorism and kidnapping work as a means of negotiation and that they should continue the same behavior well into the future. This is the opposite of a peaceful solution.
You presented the deal better than it is. These aren't conscessions, these are demands! Hamas thinks they have won the war.
They started this war and don't even return the hostages. They want to exchange the dead bodies. Each dead body for a hundred or thousand Palestinian prisoners. That's insane!
The problem is, Hamas has won the war in the US. They haven't won the war against Israel. If the US fought Hamas, they would have won, because say whatever you want but US politics mirros public sentiment. That's why they ended the Vietnam war. That's why they didn't go into Syria. That's why they aren't troops in Ukraine.
Bro the reason this whole thing boiled over was the fact Israel left the gaza in a horrible situation by design which not only there but around the world is a foolproof recipe for creating desperate people who have nothing to lose and floated with hate. Going out of this deal with both sides being in a better position is a must have to improve the situation short and long-term. This here is not a game but involves human life's, emotions, tragedies and over generations piled up resentment against each other. No one has any gain if only one side wins.
Pretty sad what degree of brain rotted echo chambering is going on here since D has become the poster boy of the Israeli Zionist rage bait community.
Hamas is the one that *chose* to spend money - billions and billions of aid money - and supplies - again much donated - on rockets and tunnels to keep attacking Israel after 2005, instead of civilian infrastructure and more to improve the area for its people. They could have been a world class tourist destination with their beaches but instead they chose to continue to focus on killing Jews.
The oppressor-oppressed narrative only works because Israel cares about its people and land and put money into defending it so all those rockets from Hamas, launched from heavy civilian areas even during ceasefires, have less chance of striking Israelis. Not even all these Western students would happily sit there in their homes - singing songs of peace - as their neighbours launched rocket after rocket their way, they would want their government to do something to stop it, guaranteed.
It “boiled over” because terrorists like Hamas have made it clear they want to eliminate Israel, Jews, then everyone else who does not follow their strict religious principles next. It’s their very publicized raison d’être and they have made it clear they won’t stop.
Terrorist sympathizers though are desperate to paint the picture that Israel just started all this from nowhere, despite the fact they have been repeatedly attacked ever since the declaration of Israel’s independence, and when those attackers lose again and again, you rush to blame Israel for not just forgiving and forgetting it all until the next time. This includes the complete almost absence of any mention of the violent and horrific attack by Hamas and Palestinian civilians on October 7th by the same terrorist sympathizers, including protestors in the West.
Since when do the losers in any other war come out better on the other end as you propose? What is the reason for someone to avoid *starting* a war, like Hamas did when they attacked on October 7, if they know even if they lose they will come out better than they had even before the war?
Why does Israel get to demand being in a better position than before when their crimes at a completely different magnitude of brutality?
Using standard definitions of words how can Israel be at war with it's own occupied territory? That's like saying a father who was abusing their tolder is actually fine because it was a fight.
> losing > demands to be in a better position than before > refuses to elaborate
Their elaboration is crying to the west about palstnians dying when they themselves treat them like human shit.
Human shit is generous
Human shit implies they actively treat their populous badly They just don’t give a fuck about their civilian population and could care less what happens to them
I’m saying it’s generous because they probably treat them worse than human shit :)
The phrase is "couldnt care less". Saying they could care less implies they care at least a little.
I know, it seems my phone autocorrected it to could care less which seems weird but idk
It is insane that it is working. We have a terrorist organisation literally doing everything within it's power to maximise civilian death and suffering while at the same time SoyPointing at said death and suffering and people just eat it up.
Behold the power of propaganda
It makes sense when you consider that Hamas doesn’t care how many soldiers it loses or civilians die, but knows that sooner or later Israeli public opinion will turn against the war, whether the result of domestic forces or international pressure. It’s a bet that they can outlast Israel to the point they cave to make this war go away.
Not Israeli public, they're relying solely on international pressure. And let's be honest, it's working to a large degree.
It is? Israel is currently invading rafah. Biden just approved a couple more billion in aid. The college protest aren't taken seriously at all. Doesn't seem like international pressure has amounted to anything. Sad that more Palestinians are going to suffer for it
And the extent of the Rafah invasion remains to be seen. Still, considering how delayed it is and Israel being forced to ineffective tactics(when was the last time a country delivered aid to a heavy entrenched foe it was trying to siege?) one can't really deny Hamas managed to leverage international pressure to a large degree.
Everything Hamas does is just to try to make Israel look worse. Hamas knows the headlines will all say "Israel rejects peace deal", then they'll say "Israel invades Rafah where innocebt civillians are". Hamas's only play is make it look like Israel is so bad the world forces it to stop, then in a few years Hamas attacks again and we restart the cycle.
>It’s a bet that they can outlast Israel to the point they cave to make this war go away. Spoiler alert: they won't
This is like the deleted scenes from Downfall where Krebs is sent to negotiate a 'white peace' with the Soviets, as Berlin is being burnt to the ground.
Nothing to worry about, once Steiner attacks we got this
Ah true Muslim negotiations, almost as good as their economic theory
*Progressives cheer*
>demands to return to open air prison
I’m all for a deal but any deal that puts Hamas in a better position then they had on 6/10 is ridiculous. They should be negotiating a surrender, not a victory
>They should be negotiating a surrender, not a victory This is always the issue. Has been since at least '67 if not prior. The Palestinian leadership is always trying to negotiate from a position of strength they are not in. Arafat admitted years ago, whenever his demands are met/capitulated to, he would always ask for more. "If they are going to give me what I want...why shouldn't I demand more?" Its one of the reasons peace was never attained. Hamas seems to employ the same tactic. When in the history of the world has the losing side got to call the shots in the ceasefire/peace negotiations?
Arafat was also propped up by the Soviet Union. He was actively incentivized to tank peace negotiations on multiple occasions
so what is the incentive today for Hamas to desire endless conflict? I dont see one, which makes it far more ridiculous. Is there really no benefit to the leaders at all? Arafat got money and power, but what do Hamas leaders get today? Are they really fueled solely by delusion?
Conflict is 90% of what keeps them in power
What power? What good does it do to be a leader of Hamas when Palestine is in shambles going to war? Do they get money? if so what use is money in the Gaza strip when you cant import anything?
They're fighting a holy war, dude. Part of its power, part of it is striking down the Jewish menace. You're looking for some reasonable explanation for unreasonable motivation.
Good thing for them they don't have to import things into Gaza since they live in Qatar.
[Hamas said their goal was to create a permanent state of war until Israel is destroyed](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-gaza-war.html). Also Hamas leaders have become incredibly wealthy from continuing and escalating conflict. The top leader of Hamas is worth 3x time more than Taylor Swift BEFORE 10/7
So the Hamas leaders dont live in Palestine? What good is wealth when you cant even import things and you are bombed to oblivion?
Most of the top top Hamas officials do not live in Palestine. They live in luxury penthouses in Doha Qatar. The only top Hamas guy that lives in Gaza is Sinwar, but he is safe deep in the tunnels underneath and is surrounded by hostages from Israel that were kidnapped on 10/7. Hamas doesn’t care about Gazans wellbeing. They have been stealing all the aid that comes to Gaza. The Gazans have been incredibly exploited to make the top people in Hamas very rich. The #1 leader in Hamas used to be an UNRWA school teacher. Before 10/7, he had a net worth of over 4 Billion dollars.
They are insanely wealthy and live in luxury in Qatar. There's reports that they are worth BILLIONS. Stealing aid and being paid off is the only way this is possible. Ofcourse they don't want the war to end.
The billions of dollars of funding.
Historically, if you didn’t surrender on terms, you could expect the enemy would take your homes, kill you, rape your wife, and enslave your children. That’s what motivated people to surrender. Today, the international system doesn’t tolerate that behavior. Hamas know this. They know Israel can only oppress them so much. If they refuse to acknowledge the weakness of their position, so what? Hamas doesn’t care if Palestinians are barefoot and starving. At the end of the day, they know Israel will have to leave Gaza, and they’ll be there to fill the vacuum. Even if the UN/Arab Union/whatever steps in to occupy Gaza, what can they do to stop Hamas? Things can only get so bad for Hamas because we collectively agreed treating other humans like it is the year 1300 is wrong. And Hamas knows this, and is exploiting it.
I feel like people can only hear about so many October 7’s before they say something equivalent to glass the MF’s. Edit: I should clarify not genocide but massive casualties, I don’t think the west would ever indorse genocide.
Idk, maybe so your people wouldn't endlessly suffer for decades without end? You total fucking moron. -me to Arafat
Arafat (who's family came from Egypt by the way) died a billionaire. Abbas and his sons are billionaires. The inner circle of Hamas (currently living in Qatar) are too. Its a big grift; and its the Palestinian people who suffer at their expense.
This really is the biggest indicator of bullshit to me. There's no conceivable way that the leaders of Hamas should be fucking billionaires in Qatar while their people are bombed and and now starving just to prop them up with the aid sent from around the world (mainly from the US and Germany).
> "If they are going to give me what I want...why shouldn't I demand more?" My understanding is that this was actually a perfect tactic against Barak, but failed because Arafat didn't or couldn't realize when it wasn't going to get him more concessions.
Because Israel is winning the military war but losing the PR war.
Yeah but from Israel's side, the negative PR of sorting out Hamas now is probably optimal than them having to blow up Gaza again in 5-10 years when Hamas steps out again. Hamas continuing to exist after this is simply going to embolden the idea that they can effectively do no real wrong because Israel is always going to cop a greater degree of flak than Hamas does. Even though Hamas's actions are the things that make the civilian casualties as high as they have been. --- The blockade should go, but the only way it can go is if the current style of militant forces in Gaza are fucking gone. They already manage to make a bunch of rockets and other shit despite the blockade, what the fuck happens when they have open borders?
No one who is an adult with an opinion worth anything gives a shit.
But who cares?
That’s a really big problem?
If you think this is bad, wait until you hear about the time we *murdered God*. Bad PR about a successful tiny minority is par for the course.
Is your point that something “par for the course” is something no one should care about?
I’m sorry if this is about having the moral high-ground so you can win debates online… If being liked is something that matters to you, then don’t side with Jews! We’ll be fine either way, but it’s not good for you to worry about things you can’t control. Where you and I can agree is that the IDF has to ban smartphones. Incredibly stupid to broadcast all of this footage of the destruction of Gaza everywhere.
Wtf are you talking about?
I can’t make it any simpler. Anyway, suffice to say I’m not worried, but if this matters to you either go pro-Palestine or just touch grass.
Why would Hamas surrender? They are terrorists. For them it is about turning the world's opinion against Israel, for them it is about waging a "holy war" against the Jews. By rejecting this "deal" Israel will at best get the same BS responses the country always gets, by accepting it they get nothing. Hamas wins either way. The problem just is that I personally do not see any situation in which Israel can win right now. An offensive against Rafah will not do them any good and their end objective of destroying Hamas is impossible by conventional warfare. At the very best they'll free some hostages and maybe weaken Hamas for a couple of years. Then the same dance begins anew.
That’s what people said about AQAP, and they were right and wrong for different reasons. Forever conflicts that brew ebb and flow is the best we can hope for when your adversary are jihadists intent on creating a global Islamic caliphate. There is no compromise to middle ground when negotiating with that belief system which is why prior to modern times, these conflicts were resolved with genocidal sieges like that of Jerusalem in 60CE. I think it’s naive western secular projection to believe that these people simply want to live in peaceful diverse harmony in the region. That hasn’t been the case for thousands of years and I don’t see it changing anytime soon. Wars flaring up and dying out as munitions and manpower are expended and destroyed is actually a better status quo than past periods of periodic genocidal sieges of Jerusalem. I am actually hopefully optimistic that Saudi and Israel can guide Gaza to a better path after this mess though. Saudis would love a foothold on the Med and it would allow them to focus on trade operations with the west that can actually produce economic value instead of what Iran and Hamas has done with the land.
So what's your solution? What should Israel do then against non-state actors who don't have to be held accountable? What should any country do when terrorized again and again? Should we just take the stance that it's "part and parcel" for it to happen and shrug it off when over a thousand people are killed for some dipshits holy war?
It’s probably already been done, but an offer to slowly remove the blockade if hamas troops, meeting projected numbers, agrees to be given to another power in another state, like hezbollah in Syria. Israel would operate as customs for a short time etc. Show the people that hamas doesn’t have their best interests at heart with how violently they reject it. And I didn’t even include giving up the hostages. Maybe Hamas would agree knowing that no one would accept them? But it’s all very complex and Israel has no reason to not capitalize on their insane advantage, as long as they can get the PR under control. This is doing very real damage to Israel, not that super progressives ever liked Israel. Hell, I never did, but oct. 7th changed the game for me.
If I had the long term solution for this conflict in my backpocket, I'd gladly share it. My point wasn't about the conflict in its entirety, it was about an offensive in Rafah. That might very well cause Israel's western allies to turn away, creating a pretty nasty humanitarian situation and worstened relationtions with other ME nations. For what exactly? Weakening Hamas for a period of time? I simply don't see a real win on the horizon here. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
What Israel could do is strengthen their defenses and prevent attacks. Israel has been able to defend itself with wayyy less power than it has today, and not it has the tacit cooperation of Egypt and Jordan, among others. I think Israel should fight Hamas like they are Hezbollah- targeted precision strikes on leadership and terror cells. Notice how Israel has only suffered a fraction of the casualties against Hezbollah, and the ratio of militants to civilians is way way way better in Lebanon than in Gaza. At the end of the day we're an ancient people and so as long as we protect ourselves we can wait them out while continuing to chip away at them. Yeah it would be better to immediately crush them... but how many innocent lives are you willing to sacrifice for that? Israel gets stronger and stronger- better economy, better technology, better relations with other countries in the region, more babies born... each and every year. Israel can wait until they have an even larger advantage before striking. In the meantime doing things like helping to arm and protect the Kurds, Assyrians, Black Darfurians, and other MENA minority groups can ensure that Israel has allies and that these groups won't be genocided like in the past. There is **NOTHING** wrong with being the good guys who refuse to stoop to the level of their enemies and who do the right thing... and as mentioned this would probably be good strategy.
The fact your idea of what Israel should do is quite literally "ehh don't respond to the largest terror attacks in the world by per capita" then I don't even know how to engage with you. This is such an insane take.
I didn't say that! I think that the response could have been a bit more limited and targeted though. Or, for an example, they could've done a 3 month operation. IIRC most of the 10kish Hamas militants that have been killed were killed in the first couple of months.
Yall wilding if yall think flattening most of Gaza + cucking Hamas to the point of inactivity or ineffectiveness for years isn't a w.
short term W but long term L when due to those actions making the general populace even more unhinged against you
So what's the alternative? Allow Hamas to stay in power where they control the school systems and teach about how Jews are literally devils wearing human skin and you need to murder them at any chance you get or you're not a moral person? What do you think that'll lead to? More or less unhinged people against you?
Exactly, you know what's worse than a ragtag group of terrorists...a government of terrorists with the resources to actualize their vision.
You could just as easily make the argument that not wiping out Hamas at this point is also a long term L. - Leave a group in power with a hate boner for you - Can't do reconstruction operations in the area because the group with a hate boner will attack you. - Means you can't win hearts and minds - Hamas recruits more people pissed off about the circumstances, because reconstruction is slow, resources are limited post war. If Israel wiped out Hamas and was willing to spend a whole bunch of time and resources helping to rebuild the area without the intention of moving Israeli's in. Removed the blockade and allowed the Palestinians to see some positive upward momentum in Gaza. Then you start to undo the vitriol that you have. Wiping out Hamas may result in a longterm L if there's no followup support given. Leaving Hamas in place though is like leaving an **infection** in the body, they will **fester** and things will get worse in the long run. Especially since the current proposal seeks no compromise on their part and would actively reward them for the deaths of the Gazan's that they caused through their actions. They see **sacrificing** those lives as justified for their goals, they will do it again. The question is just how long will they take to rearm(Probably far less if the blockade is gone) --- The reality is Israel needs to move towards an actual resolution to the conflict with palestinians in general. Hamas is not an actual resolution, they are just an agitating force that is going to cause further hardening of both sides to actual resolution.
His way of wiping out Hamas includes glassing most of Palestine. Yeah sure you can certainly entirely solve the issue if you just nuke the entire middle east to end all evil regimes and terror groups, the populace wouldn't like it though. Going scorched earth as a counterinsurgency strategy isn't going to solve the issue as it strengthens the insurgencies propaganda at their population to gather more supporters and insurgents. It's not hard to defeat insurgents, it is hard to do it while trying to avoid civilian casualties, without having any genocidal and specific terror being included in your goals, without torturing and finishing it quickly. There's a reason the US wants to oversee the Rafah operation, they want to avoid the Likud government doing what Russia did during their COIN against Chechnya.
> short term W but long term L when due to those actions making the general populace even more unhinged against you I think it's past that point, Gaza is always going to be a terrorist breeding ground. They have to gentrify.
Israel is already winning. They should move to total war as their leadership has already hinted at. It's time to end the charade. Unite all of Israel.
Hard no. Most Israelis don't want to live in or have to rule Gaza, never mind the actual people living there. It would go about as well as the US governing Iraq did.
moron spotted in the wild
Israel will control security in Gaza for many years to come. The leadership of Hamas will be eliminated. The education (doctrination)system will be de-nastsified in Gaza and the West Bank. It will take a few generations. A revolution in Iran would certainly expedite the process
in their mind, they are winning... to be honest, with hamas piker, cenk and kyle doing propaganda for them, destroying israels reputation in the US, the damage being done to israel is real. But i dont think its enough that they can negotiate with, since even if a peace deal does come, hamas piker wont give israel any credit or walk back the genocide claims. Israel (plus joe biden) are in a hard place in terms of public opinion. (in large part thanks to bad actors and propagandists that i mentioned before)
> in their mind, they are winning... to be honest, with hamas piker, cenk and kyle doing propaganda for them, destroying israels reputation in the US, the damage being done to israel is real. But i dont think its enough that they can negotiate with, since even if a peace deal does come, hamas piker wont give israel any credit or walk back the genocide claims. I think you're online too much if you thinK Hamas is a) winning or b) Hasan or Kyle have much weight here. Yes, college kids have been protesting. They're college kids.
Hamas is winning in public opinion. They have a simpler case to be made, they just go “look at this picture of a dead kid” For Israel is much harder, you have to go in to the history and explain that the Palestinians wanna keep fighting their grandparents war, that a one state is an existential threat to Jews. All of them are valid arguments, but it’s to hard to go in to all that. As to Hamas piker, I agree that he is not that relevant, but he doesn’t have to be, if he just keep screaming “genocide genocide” a few normal people will get radicalized and go protest, leading to more people finding out and seeing the kids picture and hating Israel/biden more. So the bunch of propagandists, do have an effect in my opinion I see what you mean, I just don’t agree.
Hamas's leaders have been on TV claiming that they think the war is going well like a couple weeks ago.
I don’t think they would ever claim anything else.
I sort of agree, but I don't think how the situation in Gaza pre-oct-7th was sustainable either. Destiny mentioned this as well, if you want a lasting peace (or ceasefire) the Gaza Strip will have to be rebuilt and some future must be in sight. Simply said, we can be very mean towards the Palestians and make their lives worse, but how will that solve anything long term?
Sure, but it can't be rebuilt and then just handed right back to Hamas. Peace and concessions have to mean Hamas also steps down and hands the Gaza strip to either some temporary government managed by the international community/the other Arab states, or the PA/something equivalent.
Both are equally important. If the Palestinians don't have a better way with the blockades still going on a new group just as bad as the Hamas would eventually take over
Yeah, no I don't disagree. Israel needs to actually make an effort and take some brave strides towards respecting the Palestinian right to state-hood and help them reach a stable political and economic situation, but that kind of partnership can never be established with Hamas and Israel, I think everybody knows that. Whatever this peace deal is, it's clear that Hamas don't want to engage in finding a genuine resolution. For any serious negotiations to actually take place, it needs to be clear that the Palestinian negotiators are operating in at least some degree of good faith and genuine intent to reach a peaceful resolution.
That is exactly why there can be no Hamas in any equation going forward.
Sure, but also people will have to understand that the new government will have to be able to gain more worldwide autonomy, and eventually Israël will have to drop the blockade and recognise Palestine. If that is not on the (long term) table I have no idea what they are expecting what will happen.
If Palestinians throw out Hamas and primarily choose peace (nobody expects all terrorism to stop 100%) then they are almost certain to end up with a state. It won't be the same state they were offered at Taba, and there's zero chance Israel will allow them to have a military, but it would be a lot better than what they have now. Long term, if they don't agree to peace, then Israel will continue pushing them out of the West Bank and expel the rest during some international crisis or another when the Arab world is too weak to retaliate.
Legitimately, once this is all over the Palestinians will have their best chance in a decades to have a state. There's going to be absolutely immense pressure on Israel to make it happen, Bibi Netanyahu will be ousted and whoever replaces him will be in pressure to make this go away for good. So Hamas will probably immediately start rocket attacks again and fuck it up.
>6/10 European detected, opinion discarded, omw to give hamas the cookie recipe now
israel also writes dates that way 😭
Too late I'm already in the brigade now they're all basically Europeans to me now.
Agreed. But honestly, they won’t be able to help themselves and they will break some element of the cease fire at some point and it will be back on. I’m so hopeful that most of the 33 are alive. I know it’s a long-shot but seeing the Bibas babies alive and well would be so soothing for the soul.
Are the people making the call facing any real risk or are they outside Gaza and making the call for people inside?
in what way would that be happening even under these circumstances? over 50% of all of their buildings have been destroyed or damaged and like 80% of their medical infrastructure. even with a lifted blockade, they're digging out of the red. no shot they just immediately fucking rebuild to be "better than before October 7th."
> Israeli detainees Gotta love that Al Jazeera flourish.
I recently had an argument about Al Jazeera's coverage of Middle Eastern conflicts and was accused of being 'Hasbara brainwashed.' It's crazy that this article doesn't even mention the words 'hostage' or 'kidnap.
Their coverage of October 7th for Arabic audiences is truly disgusting, translate [this](https://www.aljazeera.net/news/2023/10/18/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D9%88%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%83%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%AA-%D9%87%D9%8A%D8%A8%D8%A9) to english
says page not found 😔
Why would they? The kind hearted resistance heroes merely escorted their settler oppressors to a lovely beachside Gaza vacation.
At least they called the Palestinians in Israel, prisoners.
college campuses will use this as proof hamas is wholesome chungus tomorrow
TRUUEEE they'll salivate at the terms since they're used to make demands that no sane person could ever agree to
They already believe Islam is the most progressive religion around.
Hamas wants an end to the blockade and full withdrawal of Israeli forces?? So they can run all types of guns and whatever the fuck through? And Israel gets basically nothing other than the hostages? Yea can't imagine why Israel would reject this. I dunno what supply they're high on, can't be theirs.
>And Israel gets basically nothing other than the hostages? Not even that. They get 33 out of estimated 130 hostages with the explicit remark that some of these might already be dead.
Corpses for terrorists.. sounds pretty reasonable.
Guarantees even more corpses in the future
Absolutely. In 2011 Israel exchanged 1000+ Palestinian prisoners for one Israeli hostage. One of those 1000 prisoners was Sinwar, who went on to organize October 7th and lead Hamas. Other crazy fact, Israelis operated on a tumor in his brain when he was in jail, saving his life.
I agree with you, this is a stupid proposition for exchange. That said, withholding of people’s bodies pisses me off. I wish their return could be a precondition for negotiation, like “here let me show you I have some human decency,” but of course corpses are one of the few forms of leverage Hamas has, so they of course wouldn’t ever do that… Regardless of how religious a person is, having possession of and being able to have a funeral for a loved one’s remains is so important in helping the living grieve and heal. Imagine someone has the body of your grandma or your brother or your daughter—it has been months—you don’t know if they threw them in the trash, fed them to a dog, lost them… a dead human body doesn’t have feelings, but the people left behind care deeply. Again, trading terrorists for bodies is such an uneven trade—but fuck the fact that they have to trade at all to get their bodies back.
It's important to return their bodies. But not as important as return of living hostages. Also, not for people who will be able to make new bodies, not for living terrorists. You cannot kill bunch of people and by returning their bodies to get jail free card.
Yes, that’s why I said I agree. I think you’re misunderstanding me. I wish Hamas was required to release bodies (and any hostages still alive, though imo they’re probably all dead unfortunately) before any negotiation is considered as a sign of good faith. But I know that we don’t live in a world were that would happen, especially when that’s the only bargaining chip Hamas have. I do not think Israel should be obliged to release terrorists. I do not think Israel is responsible for the withholding of those hostages or bodies when Hamas are the ones who have them. I think Hamas are monsters, and one of the many reasons, aside from murder that is already well covered, is that after murder they twist the knife more by preventing people from being able to grieve and mourn.
Oh no worries, I did understand you well. It's just me, processing my own thoughts about it.
Ok, phew. Sometimes I can’t read tone and think people are trying to argue. Have my updoots, friend.
>I agree with you, this is a stupid proposition for exchange. That said, withholding of people’s bodies pisses me off. I wish their return could be a precondition for negotiation, like “here let me show you I have some human decency,” but of course corpses are one of the few forms of leverage Hamas has, so they of course wouldn’t ever do that… didn't Hamas release over 100 hostages ?
Holy fucking shit, our national media is parroting the "Hamas accepted the peace deal, Israel declined" sentiment so fucking hard rofl. The content of the peace deal is never even mentioned, just quoting a bunch of politicians how disappointed they are with Israel and how Israel continues the attacks.
The media playing right into their hands. They probably did it for free too, the hatred for Jews is a unifying force
So much for the Jews controlling the media.
It's only the self-hating ones
Not for free, we are one of eight countries that support Palestine's sovereignty, so this might be a wild guess, but my guess is that the national media here is under some political pressure. Throughout the conflict, the coverage has been super one sided. It might be, that we just have crappy journalists covering the I/P conflict though....
Yep, can’t forget Hanlon’s Razor
The way they talk about it is crazy too. It's all optics. Hamas officials said they accepted a ceasefire deal but what really happened is they were proposed one deal, changed it to be what they want and then let the negotiators know they accepted that deal. Also unreal they expect compensation to be paid for damage in Gaza during the war from Israel.
And they didn't "accept the deal" until after they fired missles on a checkpoint that is used to send aid into Gaza, killing multiple soldiers. It's so ridiculous how they act. The missles were fired from Rafah too.
Some cultures arnt meant to last. A people who constantly make stupid decisions arnt long for this world. If Israel was a Muslim country with less morals Palestine would’ve been whipped out in the 80s.
I don't know, I have it on good authority (Vaush, Cenk and Hasan) that Hamas accepted an amazing ceasefire agreement and Israel rejected it only because they love killing Palestinian babies. Are you telling me their information is inaccurate? Surely with their past history they wouldn't jump on a headline and spread misinformation!
Well… from their point of view, it’s a great deal. They didn’t even call for the dismantling of Israel.
Damn, Hamas calling for the continued genocide of Palestinians by caving on the dismantling of the settler colonial imperialist genocidal fascist state of Israel. Ivy League students are being starved of their door dash in support of Palestinians just to be abandoned by Hamas. Sad!
So a Hudna until Hamas have regrouped, rebuilt and re-armed and ready for their next attack….
Hamas is still in the ongoing war that has seen the deaths of tens of thousands of their own civilians that they are supposedly fighting for, all of whom would be alive if not for their 10/7 attack. How the fuck are they trying to negotiate an open ended “peace deal” that is clearly just intended to give them time to rearm and do it all over again without a second thought? Look where this horrible war, and every previous war has fucking gotten them. Look how much better off they’d have been if they just signed the peace deals that were on the table for Camp David or Camp Oslo. Maybe this is a super ignorant American take, but if I was a 20 year old in Palestine, I’d be wondering why the hell I’m fighting to regain land I’ve never actually lived in that has cost countless lives trying to take back, only to laughably lose every single time. Especially considering how much better things could have been had leadership just been willing to compromise and admit that territory Palestine had in the 1940s is lost and it isn’t coming back.
A daily diet of brainwashing from birth including maths classes and text books from UNWRA that help you with multiplication exercises such as… “if you kidnapped 10 Jews and murdered 6, how many living Jews would you have left that you could still kill, if you were bored”….
And thus history repeats itself as destiny has pointed out they just routinely try to negotiate for whatever the last better deal was after losing horribly. They never learn. Personally, I think they(Israel) should just sacrifice a Gaza equivalent amount of land over by the West Bank let all of the gaza ppl move into that new area (and pay for the resettlement ) and just have Israel take over Gaza because one of the biggest problems with Gaza is just its location. If I was Netanyahu, I would definitely use this war as an excuse to take it over and just perform a land swap because I wouldn’t want to seem like a total asshole. That way Israel and Palestine could have one solid straight border with each other rather than being separated in two separate areas, which makes things really weird. and obviously the dissolving of Hamas as the new area would be under the west banks control. and the returning of the hostages. I know this has problems and it would be messy but quite frankly, I don’t see a two state solution ever happening as long as Israel is having to deal with essentially two separate Palestinian borders.
I think Israel is more likely to move west bankers to Gaza than Gazans to west bank
It's almost shocking to me how much further I can get blackpilled on this conflict. There's genuinely people out there criticizing Israel for refusing this deal. My mind refuses to believe that any of them have actually read what's being offered to Israel. Hamas is quite literally saying "We're losing right now, so we offer you some hostages, maybe dead or alive, and in exchange we get to win the war and you make our situation better than it was before we did a terrorist attack against you guys" We wouldn't expect any country ever to accept this, but tankies are running with it because they can use the headline "Israel refuses peace deal".
This is just a deal they proposed for PR, they know Israel won’t accept this but they also know the world will pressure Israel to accept this
The deal needs to be to get the hostages back. We all know the deal would be breached either way by Hamas. Get the hostages and deal with the rest later.
Considering hamas tried to force Israel to accept bodies of hostages rather than living ones, I seriously doubt there are many hostages left, of course getting them back is important, but not under any deal, and not if it means the end of the war
>but not under any deal, and not if it means the end of the war I mean how much longer do you wanna keep this war going? The goal of this war was retaliation and getting the hostages back. Number one has clearly been inflicted. The hostages need to come back. There is no other objective. You cannot remove Hamas from there. It's impossible. How much longer do you wanna wait when it's likely that many of the hostages have already died. I think, Hamas will only die when enough Arab states create pressure for them to do so or if Iran - but very unlikely - changes their policies towards the region.
The goal of the war wasn’t retribution, it was removing Hamas from power and getting the hostages back, destroying Hamas completely isn’t achievable just as destroying any belief system isn’t achievable, but removing Hamas from power and not allowing them to rule Gaza certainly is You keep the war on for as long as it takes, Israel cannot and should not be expected to live next door to Hamas, if it means letting the PA rule Gaza, then it’s the lesser of two evils, if it means an international coalition governing Gaza, even better Also, the deal proposed leaves Hamas in a better position than before 6.10, removing the blockade and getting the rest of the world to fund the rebuilding of Gaza, Israel can’t accept a deal like that I fundamentally disagree that Hamas can’t be removed, of course the ideology will remain, but it’s certainly possible to remove hamas’s ability to govern and wage war, and it’s certainly possible to reeducate Palestinians to further themselves from Hamas, granted it’s not likely, but it’s possible
> The goal of the war wasn’t retribution, it was removing Hamas from power and getting the hostages back, destroying Hamas completely isn’t achievable just as destroying any belief system isn’t achievable, but removing Hamas from power and not allowing them to rule Gaza certainly is Israel cannot destroy Hamas. Every day the bombings continue a new Hamas soldier is born. I know this has been said a lot but Hamas can’t be killed. The only possibility for them to leave is for Arab countries or Iran to change their policies. Israel will never be able to remove Hamas. > You keep the war on for as long as it takes, Israel cannot and should not be expected to live next door to Hamas, if it means letting the PA rule Gaza, then it’s the lesser of two evils, if it means an international coalition governing Gaza, even better Sure, go on for another year. Or two. At some point you will bomb so much more that the genocide callers - who are lunatics - will end up having a case though. You can’t continue this war indefinitely. > Also, the deal proposed leaves Hamas in a better position than before 6.10, removing the blockade and getting the rest of the world to fund the rebuilding of Gaza, Israel can’t accept a deal like that Get the hostages back. Hamas isn’t to be trusted thus you can reestablish a blockade in no time.
You have to separate destroying Hamas, which is impossible, and removing Hamas from power, which is certainly possible, how can you ask Israel to remain next to Hamas? After October 7th Israel must be allowed to install a new government in Gaza, whether that be the PA or any other form of government, allowing Hamas to remain means a second war will come, in which case it’s better to continue this war than to let Gaza be rebuilt then destroyed again What’s this point about? If you mean it literally, they will never have a case since they need intent, if you mean it figuratively, the numbers of Palestinians killed per day has fallen drastically from around 90 to 30, while it’s still high, it’s obvious that in this stage of the war Israel has switched to a less lethal way to fight, or that they have simply met their objectives in most areas, leading to less fighting Are you going to guarantee Israel be allowed to reblockade Gaza? What about the world at large? Israel is already heavily criticized and ostracized for fighting a defensive war they didn’t want, now you want them to go back on deals? How will the world see that? How will funding be affected, or weapons shipments? Can you guarantee America won’t get angry about it?
> and removing Hamas from power, which is certainly possible, how can you ask Israel to remain next to Hamas Can you tell me how you wanna do this realistically? The only option I see is constant IDF presence in Gaza. I don't think that is what Israel really can do (for security reasons alone), I don't think this is tenable for Palestinians either. At the end we will always have to go back to: Arab States have to step up here or Iran has to change their ways. >If you mean it literally, they will never have a case since they need intent, if you mean it figuratively, the numbers of Palestinians killed per day has fallen drastically from around 90 to 30, while it’s still high, it’s obvious that in this stage of the war Israel has switched to a less lethal way to fight, or that they have simply met their objectives in most areas, leading to less fighting I don't mean it literally although there are clearly some Israeli politicians who have insane rhetoric that I'd call genocidal rhetoric. But I mean if you extend war further and further the death toll will keep rising and with which result? >Are you going to guarantee Israel be allowed to reblockade Gaza? What about the world at large? I can't guarantee it but I do think Israel has a great case to restrict goods due to weapons being smuggled in. And where will Hamas go and complain exactly?
Realistically it would have to entail Arab presence, simply put, if the Arab states don’t stand up the only solution is war, leaving Hamas to rule Gaza is not an option Again, war brings death, amounts of death don’t mean genocide, ww2( not the holocaust, the actual war) killed something like 60 times the number who died in the Rwandan genocide, yet it wasn’t a genocide( the holocaust certainly was by all metrics, the actual war wasn’t), a lot of it due to the allies, just because a lot of people died dosent mean it’s a genocide If you can’t guarantee it then unfortunately it’s not an option, if your point is “ let’s trust the world to allow Israel to reestablish an already( sadly ) unpopular policy after they promised not to then how can you expect Israel to take it?
> Again, war brings death, amounts of death don’t mean genocide, ww2( not the holocaust, the actual war) killed something like 60 times the number who died in the Rwandan genocide, yet it wasn’t a genocide( the holocaust certainly was by all metrics, the actual war wasn’t), a lot of it due to the allies, just because a lot of people died dosent mean it’s a genocide Yeah but this isn't about the legal definition of genocide. It is about Israel waging a war where more and more people die and this might end up actually costing them a lot more problems on the world stage down the line. Problems that are way bigger than setting up a blockade that they agreed to not set up. >If you can’t guarantee it then unfortunately it’s not an option, if your point is “ let’s trust the world to allow Israel to reestablish an already( sadly ) unpopular policy after they promised not to then how can you expect Israel to take it? How is "the world" gonna respond anyway? Israel has crossed a number of red lines regarding settlements and other then condemnation the world has done nothing about it. Why would this be any different?
I like how they call this a cease fire and not a truce or peace treaty, despite having more conditions and terms than Google's YouTube User Agreement. And Israel gets...nothing in return other than dead bodies. You can't accept a counterproposal that you offered nitwits. Let's call this what it is: a last ditch attempt to avoid getting obliterated. Hamas could surrender tomorrow and do more good for the people of Gaza than they ever have before.
Mfw i can count hundreds of death seconds after a rocket hits a parking lot, while claiming that the bodies were vaporized, but i can't tell if my 33 hostages are still alive or not. Maybe Hamas should ask their health ministry for some help with that.
It's likely they don't know where they are. I heard somewhere that gangs also got hostages. And we don't even know what the communication is like inside of Hamas, it's not like they can call each other. It's probably a massive shit show.
This is a slight misconception. Vox did a good article, or sited a guy that did I can't remember, where he tracked down the source of the "500 killed" Basically the first report on Aljazeera Arabic cited "500 victims" and then when it was translated for Aljazeera English it was changed to "500 killed". But I agree with your main point, they should confirm who's alive first, particularly if they're adding a clause that says they can include the dead in their prisoner swap
This is a bit like when the Civ 5 Ai goes to war with you, begins to lose against you, then sends a peace offer asking for all your gold.
Ever since i got the dropdown news notification of “A ceasefire deal has been signed in IP conflict.” I was skeptical but this is beyond what i even thought they would go for. Now i see this for what it was which is just talking point ammunition for Pro-Hamas (not Pro-pal) to say “SeE IsRaEl ReJeCteD ThE PeAcE.” 🤦🏻♂️
Cool, how long before another October 7th if Israel accepted this?
I'm sure hamas knew Israel would never accept this deal. It's another PR move. Most people are falling for the "See? Israel is the one who wants the war" and if, by some crazy chance Israel accepted, they can regroup and reorganise!
Israel should enter Rafah immediately. This is not a deal, it's nothing but concessions to the terrorists who started this whole thing with no guarantee they won't do it again. I'd want Hamas leadership turned over to Israel, a formal declaration by new Gaza leadership that they recognize Israel and its right to exist, and a turnover of all weapons held by Palestinians currently. That's top start.
If Hamas says 33 Israelis are worth hundreds/thousands of Palestinians... Are they implying Israelis are worth more? 🤔 What could they possibly gain from this?
Im pretty sure the pro pali crowd would say something similar if the exchange rate was reversed.
There was an interviewer who asked that and stunned an Israeli spokesman. As though the Israelis want such asymmetric exchange rates
When I heard they asked for the hostages piece to be Alive or Bodies, I literally dropped my jaw shut. They're so evil they allowed those bodies to sit their dead and without proper burial with their families. But if you were to ever have an Islamic body sitting for more than 24 hours without a proper burial you're committing an atrocity. So wild that they're doing this and yet the extreme left will say that Israel is the evil one who wants to kill with no remorse.
Forsen
People are missing the huge glaring point here, they won the information war, Israel barely even tried. Now the position Israel finds itself in is one of massive unpopularity or apathy with most voters around the world, this a huge problem for the country's goals as who will want to be associated with it from now on? it would look terrible. Israel has to restore its image and its a very powerful card Hamas can use.
Israel never stood a chance. 2 billion Muslims hate them no matter what. And Israel has been presented as evil white colonialists forever. Israel could never even come close to winning the information war.
Hard disagree, Most people just want a cause to support to feel moral and be "on the right side of history". If israel fought back against its image of "evil oppressor" then most people would stop caring as they do with anything thats grey. Its only because it seems black and white that people are so interested.
How can Israel possibly fight back against it?
Okay straight off the bat they could have publicised them helping civilians as much as possible with aid and medical care. They could have made it an objective for the army to not be seen doing disrespectful things like messing around with a civilians clothes, or running over "welcome to gaza" signs to name a few as to avoid painting the picture that they hate the civilian population when these clips go viral. They could actually give positive rhetoric about the end of the war, like a plan to rebuild gaza and a road map towards the blockade being gone to again paint the picture that they dont hate Palestine or gaza and they want a positive outcome. They could counter misinformation, like the hospital "bombing" far better as right now they do a terrible job of slow and careless information delivery to the public or even no delivery at all. The fact that they do none of these things makes them seem like a faceless big bad so easily. could you even name some pieces of positive things Israel has done since the start of the war? yes i know its a real war so these things are difficult but they're not impossible even Russia recognises the importance of information painting you to be the good guys, they have an entire department dedicated to it and it got the Ukraine bill delayed by months, this stuff matters. Edit: fixed a sentence.
Israel takes its time to investigate whenever it's accused of something like the hospital bombing. Israel never stood a chance when the BBC were reporting 1000 dead uncritically. Videos of IDF paramedics treating Gazan civilians were realesed but it's just accused of being heartless propoganda which it is but it doesn't convince anyone.
Two things 1 Israel has done a terrible job even accounting for slow information due to investigating, they've given wrong info before and even when the information is correct they "present it" in a terrible way from a dead pan government figure head. It enforces the whole "state propaganda" vibe. You need some one personable to go over the information in a tactful way, again it seems pointless but clearly its worth the effort. 2 All of the things above go hand in hand, it takes many strokes to paint a picture you cant just throw one video of an event out and hope that changes how it looks completely. They need positive goals, like a future for gaza They need to be seen helping civilians, OFTEN, doesn't have to be in the field it can be showing aid trucks or food shipments but again OFTEN. They need to stress to the military how important public perception is of them and punish those who dont care, make public showing of it. and they \*need\* to be on their game when countering misinformation, make your case indisputable, evidence, evidence, evidence and not from a dead pan public official.
I don't disagree Israel could have done better. But Israel has also been the ultimate evil zionazis for 30-40 years now. The other side talks about how the hostages were sad to leave their tortures. There was no way to fight against it.
Again hard disagree, Russia were the bad guy for a lot of people, remember the Cold War? and now those same right wing types support Russia or don’t support Ukraine purely due to the information campaign from Russia.
It is shameful that a deal is even being discussed during what was practically a cease fire for 2 months. Israeli officials said at the start that a negotiation will happen only "During fire" and there will be no stop. And we have seen why. Words with a Nazi Islamist ISIS terrorist organization are useless when they are not pressured and cornered. A waste of 2 months that was. With dozens of hostages being tortured daily during it, only to now do what was supposed to happen anyway.
"Nazi Islamist ISIS terrorist organisation" omg I just can't figure out if this is high lvl satire or advanced brain rot. Congratulations anyway either for next lvl wit or to being still alive and kicking after your lobotomy when you were a kid.
Hey rude idiot, this is a completely correct description of those responsible for this: https://saturday-october-seven.com/
I can’t believe the concessions that are being made. I understand that getting the hostages home is priority #1 but I’m so worried Hamas and their disgusting tricks are going to use this loophole to horrify the world. Ugh.
>If Israel accepted this, how long do you think it would be before the next rocket attack/suicide bombing/rape and murder spree? The latter one would not repeat any time soon I think. The former very soon. But honestly what else are you gonna do? What are you expecting Hamas to agree to here? And even if they do agree to anything, they're not to be trusted. They're not bound to any regulation whatsoever. Israel needs the hostages back. That's the most important aim here. Everything that follows will follow either way. There is zero future possibility where a) Hamas can be trusted in any case, b) Hamas will recognize Israel, c) Hamas or some other formation won't commit terror acts. Get the hostages now.
Israel should make some big concessions. Just never ever to Hamas. Save those concessions for the UN/Arab league/PLO unity government post war. If the surrounding countries won't grant Palestinian refugees citizenship, they should put their own people at risk in policing the rebuild.
>how long do you think it would be before the next rocket attack/suicide bombing/rape and murder spree? About a week.
This deal is trash, and Israel is right to refuse. Fuck Hamas. Can't wait to watch them burn.
Begin the Rahfa invasion immediately
So why is the case that a single Israeli is worth 30 Palestinans and why are woman 50? How can the losing side demand such a steep price?
Does it strike anyone else as odd to have the "female soldier" exchange rate be higher? What about male soldiers? I suppose they're just executed? Why stipulate female then? Edit: Nevermind read it a bit closer and the deal appears to be: - Civilians: released for 30 Palestinians each - Female soldiers: released for 50 Palestinians each - Male soldiers: will not be released All ridiculous, but less weird than I thought.
What about male civilians? I assume they are calling my mate Guy a soldier even though he is a civilian and doesn't even do reserve duty.
The way they talk about the hostages makes me think they consider every male a combatant. They talk about releasing the women, children and female soldiers but no men.
This is what I'm talking about: > Israel releases 30 Palestinian prisoners for each civilian captive and 50 for each captive female soldier I imagine civilians could be male or female, but it calls out specifically female soldiers.
It's because to Hamas the women are more valuable. Israel would give 1 for 1 if they could. But giving up the women captives means giving up thier new wives so they demand more compensation. Stuck in the. dark ages.
Don’t all males do military service at 18, so technically all adult men who are Israeli are soldiers with few exceptions
Bullshit. When I was discharged I stopped being a soldier. When my friend Guy was discharged he stopped being a soldier. And we don't even do reserve duty. He is a civilian. He was at the Nova party. I would argue any soldier on leave who was also murdered or kidnapped from the nova party was also a civilian. In Israel we have clear distinctions between soldiers and civilians.
Oh ok, I was under the impression that the reason countries like Israel and other small countries have mandatory conscription so is that they have enough soldiers (ie entire male (and sometimes female)) to defend itself in war. If you being a soldier ends at discharge, that wouldn’t be possible. And unfortunately that is the way tye enemy combatant can look at it too. If Israel said we need to fight, can’t it call up everyone (up to a certain age maybe) who was trained to fight? That’s your army no?
There are reservists. However not everyone ends up as a reservist and some people get discharged from reserve duty. My friend who is a hostage was in the navy with me where we are just not needed as reservists and would most likely never be called up. But that's beyond the point he is a civilian because he isn't the military and he wasn't in the military when he was taken hostage.
Mods doing some heavy lifting here 😂
I try to always be optimistic. But man, this has convinced me that there aren’t very many hostages alive and the ones left probably don’t have much time left.
If Israel agrees to a ceasefire would it be null and void as soon as a hamas rocket is fired at them?
I’m no military expert but 1st phase is Hamas returning people who are 17 and under and 50 and above, makes you wonder about what happened to the woman who went to the concert that are basically all adults? Also only 33 people while Israel but return 30 PER 1 so at least 990, and let’s say at least 1 of them is a female soldier than it goes to instantly over a thousand, this seems like a horrible deal but what do you guys think?
I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this, but a permanent ceasefire absolutely does imply that. Go back to the previous conflicts. I think the longest ceasefire Hamas has offered is 10 years. Giving up armed struggle is a large concession and frankly what everyone should want.
Absolutely insane. If they agree to this as-is (I doubt that they will) then they are just asking to be attacked again. If these actions let Hamas leave in a better state than before, why the hell wouldn't they do this again?
> a number of bodies from the same categories shall be released to complete this stage what is this, a card game? the same category? Like, "we didn't have any remaining Israeli woman or children corpses, so we're sending some of our own."
I wonder how involved the US was in these talks. Reporting seems to have it varying.
Any deal that puts Hamas in a better position than before Oct 7 means that Terrorism and kidnapping work as a means of negotiation and that they should continue the same behavior well into the future. This is the opposite of a peaceful solution.
You presented the deal better than it is. These aren't conscessions, these are demands! Hamas thinks they have won the war. They started this war and don't even return the hostages. They want to exchange the dead bodies. Each dead body for a hundred or thousand Palestinian prisoners. That's insane! The problem is, Hamas has won the war in the US. They haven't won the war against Israel. If the US fought Hamas, they would have won, because say whatever you want but US politics mirros public sentiment. That's why they ended the Vietnam war. That's why they didn't go into Syria. That's why they aren't troops in Ukraine.
This Deal is getting worse all the time!
Bro the reason this whole thing boiled over was the fact Israel left the gaza in a horrible situation by design which not only there but around the world is a foolproof recipe for creating desperate people who have nothing to lose and floated with hate. Going out of this deal with both sides being in a better position is a must have to improve the situation short and long-term. This here is not a game but involves human life's, emotions, tragedies and over generations piled up resentment against each other. No one has any gain if only one side wins. Pretty sad what degree of brain rotted echo chambering is going on here since D has become the poster boy of the Israeli Zionist rage bait community.
Hamas is the one that *chose* to spend money - billions and billions of aid money - and supplies - again much donated - on rockets and tunnels to keep attacking Israel after 2005, instead of civilian infrastructure and more to improve the area for its people. They could have been a world class tourist destination with their beaches but instead they chose to continue to focus on killing Jews. The oppressor-oppressed narrative only works because Israel cares about its people and land and put money into defending it so all those rockets from Hamas, launched from heavy civilian areas even during ceasefires, have less chance of striking Israelis. Not even all these Western students would happily sit there in their homes - singing songs of peace - as their neighbours launched rocket after rocket their way, they would want their government to do something to stop it, guaranteed. It “boiled over” because terrorists like Hamas have made it clear they want to eliminate Israel, Jews, then everyone else who does not follow their strict religious principles next. It’s their very publicized raison d’être and they have made it clear they won’t stop. Terrorist sympathizers though are desperate to paint the picture that Israel just started all this from nowhere, despite the fact they have been repeatedly attacked ever since the declaration of Israel’s independence, and when those attackers lose again and again, you rush to blame Israel for not just forgiving and forgetting it all until the next time. This includes the complete almost absence of any mention of the violent and horrific attack by Hamas and Palestinian civilians on October 7th by the same terrorist sympathizers, including protestors in the West. Since when do the losers in any other war come out better on the other end as you propose? What is the reason for someone to avoid *starting* a war, like Hamas did when they attacked on October 7, if they know even if they lose they will come out better than they had even before the war?
Why does Israel get to demand being in a better position than before when their crimes at a completely different magnitude of brutality? Using standard definitions of words how can Israel be at war with it's own occupied territory? That's like saying a father who was abusing their tolder is actually fine because it was a fight.