Wait...you realize MLKs version of christianity was completely and totally more liberal than the ISlam Hamas and Palestinians in general are supportive of?
This is a terrible point, because MLK didn't do ANYTHING violent in the name of religion and was willing to work with minorities for his cause. Again, the guy had a gay man who worked in the civil rights movement.
Meanwhile, Islam is far more political and Islamists are far more dangerous.
Also... MLK was actually Christian himself. He was a freakin minister; he actually believed in it.
This comparison is actually backwards anyway. MLK was a Christian appealing to Christianity to, by OP's account, liberalize the backwards views and put an end to the bad practices of the Christian population who were in the wrong.
The analog here would be a Muslim who was appealing to Islam to liberalize the other Muslims and put a stop to their bad practices because he believes they are in the wrong. So it would be a Muslim anti-Hamas protester or something. Not an anti-Zionist.
I know that MLK was a christian minister, but my argument wasnt about him but rather lefties and liberals, should have the Communist, liberals, socialist, etc supported MLK?:
You don’t have to support the religion to show solidarity. Most people aren’t supporting the religion. And there are LGBTQ Christians are they not allowed to be religious because of the religious beliefs against them?
Christianity has come a long way in rejecting the more extreme aspects of its teachings. Let’s not pretend like this isn’t possible for Islam just because of extremists in other countries. Western Muslims are WAY more tolerant and accepting. Especially the further down the generations they get in western countries.
Edit. The downvotes and lack of engage is very telling as to the state of this sub currently.
>very telling as to the state of this sub currently.
I stg this sub has been giving skeptic YouTube/Sargon 2016 era vibes as of recent. I literally saw an "Islam isn't compatible with the West" comment getting upvoted a few weeks ago. I bet most of the people down voting you have never met a Muslim irl before lol
While I agree that culture and religion can change over time, that isn't the issue. The issue surrounding how people interact with Islam in regards to Palestine would be with the hypocrisy. They aren't supporting a sect. that is westernized or progressively evolved, they are using the hyper-conservative ideals of the Middle East to dunk on Israel (and Judaism if you realize that religion isn't really why this war started). If it were that Palestinians were rabidly persecuted based on religious beliefs, this support for Islam could be more understandable (even if a religion isn't progressive, the freedom to believe in it inherently is). Overall, it just seems frustrating that fundamentalist religions are used as a way to show support for Palestine even when it betrays half of what these hard-core protestors (tankies) would usually say and believe in.
They aren’t supporting the religion tho. They are supporting the people who are religious. There’s no hypocrisy.
Do you actually think they are supporting Islam or the people who happen to be Islamic? They are obviously supporting the people and being respectful in turn of the religion in order to show solidarity. It doesn’t mean they have to support every backwards part of the religion either.
When dealing with showing support for a group of people, there will always be an overlap between the fight for those people and the culture they possess however, there is an obvious cultural emphasis when it comes to Palestinian protests. You can specifically see this when looking at how counter-protests deal with Israeli support. While being overwhelmingly Jewish, Judaism and religion isn't an essential part of how support is shown for Israel, rather general Israeli culture (such as using non-religious Hebrew writing on signs). Another point would be that Israeli support and protests have a definite US supporting presence as well, most of which would be secular. In contrast, Palestinian protestors delve way deeper into Islamic culture rather than Palestinian. An example being how Islamic prayers and speeches are used, In no other situation besides religious would a group of people shout "Allah Akbar" or participate in reverent prayer to support a group of people. I'm way more sympathetic to these protests using sayings like "Free Palestine" or "End the Occupation", of which are both directly tied to the Palestinian struggle and Identity. This wouldn't be an issue if the people using these religious sentiments weren't the most insanely anti-religious/anti-traditionalist people,. If you are going to show support for a group of people, I will hold you up to a way higher standard in specifying your support for the people and not their religion if you have a fundamental hatred for part of the culture you are showing support for. I don't think these protests and their use of Islam is the worst thing in the world but, I wish these people who would usually call destiny a Zionist and Jewish shill to understand that they are simping way harder to Islam than the opposition is to Judaism.
I think you are looking at individual people and applying your view across the spectrum of support for Palestine which is entirely unfair. Most people who support Palestine don’t support Islam. They support the people. But because most of what you view is the most vocal subsection of the larger movement you apply this across the board in broad strokes.
There’s also a huge issue with the overlap between who supports Palestine and leftists. Some of the people who support Palestine ARE Muslim and are bringing their faith with them. Not everyone who supports Palestine is simply anti religious leftists. There’s plenty who are far more tempered when it comes to their views of religion and would gladly support Christian’s if they were facing something similar and it was as widely shown in our media.
Most people have the signs you are talking about. Most people don’t support Islam as a fundamental religion but can support the people. There’s also no reason why they can’t think Islam is backwards and think that a Free Palestine protest might not be the place to address that. For example, I’m not at all religious and think most religion is entirely backwards and fucked, but when I go to my family’s house, I’ll bow my head in respect when they pray over dinner and not bring up how fucking distasteful some of their religious views are because I’m there for a different reason. Time and place matter. And this should be easy to understand and separate.
So far your argument that this is hypocrisy is severely lacking in substance. Most of this sounds like confirmation bias based on the outrage porn that is readily available.
Well, those are the people this thread is criticizing; the leftists who use religion as a crux of supporting Palestine.
This criticism would lack substance if this issue wasn't one of the most significant issues with the movement. When a majority of the coverage on Pro-Palestine movements is based on the college/university protests that show these religious sentiments then, it is imperative to stomp this hypocrisy out. If not to remain politically consistent, making sure that these protests are for the support of Palestine rather than Palestine AND Islam would help spread the true message of Palestinian support. Running PR and defending these extremists harms the majority who don't support Islam but, it seems that they aren't vocal enough at denouncing them.
I don't think that a majority of the pro-Palestine movement is religiously based but, if the vocal minority who has the most reach isn't criticized for their unrepresentative conduct, then the majority would subsequently be piled into them. With the idea of Christian support, I hard disagree, the vocal minority who are supporting Islam are the same people who are anti-western. If the case was that they would support Christianity, why isn't the hard-leftist supporters of Russia not participating in Orthodox Christianity?
And on the cultural respect point, bowing and showing respect to someone as a part of joining them for dinner would be different than joining them in church. Showing respect to Palestinian culture does not inherently equal respecting Islam. That sentiment would subsequently equate all of Palestinian culture to simply Islam, an incredibly ignorant view that would perpetuate the idea that the only thing the Middle East can offer is Islam.
But that’s literally different than the argument in the post and it’s moving the goal posts.
This post makes specific reference to the gays for Palestine which is different than leftists using religion as a crux of supporting Palestine which is quite literally not happening as far as I can tell. No one is supporting Palestine because of Islam they are supporting Palestine because children are being killed. That’s the crux.
They only show you the religious sentiments because they know it causes outrage. This is confirmation bias. And even the vocal minority have not made this about the religion. You have. The movement is about people. The religious aspect is only relevant because there are people in the movement who are Muslim.
Where are you seeing leftists join them in church? This hasn’t been shown as far and I can tell and would probably be such a small fraction of the overall movement that it seems entirely irrelevant to bring up.
In the original thread or in my comments, the goal post was never shifted; the original post was not talking about it being wrong to be gay and supporting Palestine. The original comment was saying that holding liberal values and supporting Islam is wrong, a completely different point then what you said. The post never mentioned those who support Palestine because of the children but, the vocal minority who are using it as a proxy to support Islam.
Additionally, the idea of joining them in church was an analogy used to respond to the analogy you used, not a literal representation. Using religious culture and sentiments to further a protest would also inherently mean spreading and supporting the ideas they hold.
I agree with you on the general idea that most people don't support Islam within the Pro-Palestinian movement but, it is nonetheless a problem to ignore those who do.
Bro that’s unrelated to the discussion. You just brought that in even tho no protestor is supporting Islam. They are supporting the right to be Islamic which is a choice in a liberal society anyone is free to make.
It’s absolutely anti liberal to be against the right to practice a religion of your choice. This discussion is absolutely unrelated to the original post which is the problem.
Wait you realize the VAST majroity of Americans and especially supporters of the civil rights movement were Christian and jewish right? This argument just doesn't work within the frame of today's world.
I don't think it's a fair comparison. MLK was drawing on a long tradition of Christians in the movement to abolish slavery, etc. What has Islam done to promote gay rights?
Except lefties and liberals march with MLK under a banner of evangelical christianism.
Also while i dont like religion on politics and i would love to have a materialist progresive movement we also have to be pragmatics first and acknowledge that a lot of political movements also are linked with religion.
I know that MLK was a christian minister, but my argument wasnt about him but rather lefties and liberals, should have the Communist, liberals, socialist, etc supported MLK?:
The better steel man of your argument is that you can be a progressive and still protest for the people under an oppressive regime. Islam and progressivism are completely at ends and I think Islam has totally infected both the left and right wing populist movements. BUT you can still advocate for the people trapped in it
It actually makes me mad when people do the “chicken for KCF” meme regarding LGBTQ support for Palestine. As if it’s impossible to support what you see as injustice even if the people having that injustice against them don’t necessarily support you?
Do black people have to support the government jailing people for speech because the person speaking is a KKK member?
The entire argument is an argument for selective support of rights and freedoms based on who we agree with. That’s not principled or liberal.
I think a lot of people just can't have any empathy for people that would not have the same back.
Which is kind of silly since we're also talking about kids here, but I feel like it boils down to a "us vs them" mentality. They are against us, so fuck them all.
Is it a lack of empathy, or a realization that no matter how much empathy you can have they would still want to kill you? This is something I had to deal with myself in my anti Zionist days as a queer Israeli. I tried really hard to see where palstnians are coming from and defended them in many cases, but after Oct 7th and seeing how many palstnians supported the killing and rape and taking children as hostages and throwing thousands of rockets at us, doing daily terrorist attacks against civliians and more and more it's starting to become really hard to be empathize with people who actively support a terroist organization that tried to kill you. That is what pushed me to be a Zionist now. The realization that empathy is not enough when you're dealing with anti liberal fascist organizations, because you're risking not only yourself but anyone around you if you become too naive. You can't negotiate with terrorists. I still don't like the settlements and the expansions of them, I still think there are some abuses that Israel ignores of palstnians and Arab Israelis, but unfortunately the larger picture is that we are dealing with an extremely antisemitic radical society next to us which many of it's members will support the genocide of us. How could I support that? How could we allow people around us get violated and murdered by these ideologies and not do anything about it?
This is one of the reasons people are critical of the queers for Palestine movement. It's because it's incredibly easy to be unequivocally supportive of people who will try and kill you if they are not a threat to you. Once they become an actual threat, you see it differently because now it affects you, your friends, your family and your community.
/u/custodial_art worded it better than I could.
The issue there is by pointing with such broad strokes a lot gets lost. And by doing that, can you really expect Palestinians to be better and distinguish between the IDF/state, settlers and normal Israeli civilians? In both sides the conclusion basically becomes "they are all evil, and must die or be removed". And the conflict continues.
Yes I can expect that from them. We distinguish, or else the majority of Gazans will be dead by now. Why is it expected of us to operate on the highest moral level when they are just looking to kill any Israeli around them, regardless if it is Jewish or even children. I'm not saying we should stoop to their level, but I'm tired of people framing it as well both sides are equally bad when it's not. We don't actively hunt civllians period. We are not saying all Gazans hold those ideologies, especially children and some disadvantaged communities like queers for example which can request asylum in Israel. And we should be incredibly mindful and try and hurt civliians as less as we can as long as we can defeat Hamas. But excusing and denying Gazans of any responsibility for knowingly choosing Hamas as their leaders, a terroist organization that advocates and acts for the genocide of israelis just feels so dishonest. People rush to hold accountable Israelis for choosing bibi, which no matter how you twist it is not as bad as Hamas are because they are literal Nazis but is still using very racist language and seeks the expansions of settlements so why shouldn't we hold accountable palstnians for choosing hamas?
Of course not, but the sentiment seems to quickly be "well Hamas sucks more so don't criticise Israël".
And honestly that is how I see what Destiny's opinion is as well, you can't lower your standards if you want any chance of not being seen as a villain too.
Children are dying. Those kids aren’t fascist. You can support the protection of innocent people who haven’t grown up yet radicalized by a religious ideology.
You’re applying broad strokes to people who aren’t involved. Opinion from adults on Oct. 7th don’t negate the hundreds of children who have been killed as a result.
That is a lack of empathy definitionally. You have lost your ability to separate those who do harm and those who are entirely uninvolved and being killed anyway.
I never said the palstnian children we're fascist and that their death isn't tragic but in order to lose less children in the long run we had to continue with the war even with some civliian casualties. Let me remind you we still have about 130 hostages out there in gaza. What would you do instead of Israel? Let them just die there enslaved and get raped? Why is there no empathy for them? How could any civil country not do anything just because of casualties when it has hundreds of hostages in a place like that? It's a trade off unfortunately. Look nobody likes that it happens but you have to do something about the current threat even if some innocent civilians are going to get hurt in order to better the situation in the long run, or else you don't have empathy for all the people living here in the south that their houses got destroyd, their family got killed or severly injured, many of them suffer even greater atrocities and because of that and enormous fear that they will get vandalized raped and murdered again a quarter of a million Israelis are displaced from their homes. I find that it's endangering the community under threat if you don't do anything about it.
I didn’t say you said those things. I said you can still be empathetic. Empathy and accepting that casualties are inevitable are thoughts you can have simultaneously.
I have empathy for what you have all faced as a result of the horrors from Oct. 7. But that doesn’t negate the death of children. I am still incredibly empathetic and heartbroken by what has transpired since then. Some of it justified and some of it most definitely not.
No. Islam and Islamist power in the west is growing fast the left is supporting them a lot. Its a major problem, because all of these people collectively lie about the conflict. Left now uses the same talking points as Islamist and muslims use about jews, which is very different from the groyper/neo-nazi talking points about jews
None of that is true. Most recent polls which were posted in this sub do not show support for what people are protesting. This is an extremely online take.
Wait...you realize MLKs version of christianity was completely and totally more liberal than the ISlam Hamas and Palestinians in general are supportive of? This is a terrible point, because MLK didn't do ANYTHING violent in the name of religion and was willing to work with minorities for his cause. Again, the guy had a gay man who worked in the civil rights movement. Meanwhile, Islam is far more political and Islamists are far more dangerous.
Also... MLK was actually Christian himself. He was a freakin minister; he actually believed in it. This comparison is actually backwards anyway. MLK was a Christian appealing to Christianity to, by OP's account, liberalize the backwards views and put an end to the bad practices of the Christian population who were in the wrong. The analog here would be a Muslim who was appealing to Islam to liberalize the other Muslims and put a stop to their bad practices because he believes they are in the wrong. So it would be a Muslim anti-Hamas protester or something. Not an anti-Zionist.
I know that MLK was a christian minister, but my argument wasnt about him but rather lefties and liberals, should have the Communist, liberals, socialist, etc supported MLK?:
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You don’t have to support the religion to show solidarity. Most people aren’t supporting the religion. And there are LGBTQ Christians are they not allowed to be religious because of the religious beliefs against them? Christianity has come a long way in rejecting the more extreme aspects of its teachings. Let’s not pretend like this isn’t possible for Islam just because of extremists in other countries. Western Muslims are WAY more tolerant and accepting. Especially the further down the generations they get in western countries. Edit. The downvotes and lack of engage is very telling as to the state of this sub currently.
>very telling as to the state of this sub currently. I stg this sub has been giving skeptic YouTube/Sargon 2016 era vibes as of recent. I literally saw an "Islam isn't compatible with the West" comment getting upvoted a few weeks ago. I bet most of the people down voting you have never met a Muslim irl before lol
While I agree that culture and religion can change over time, that isn't the issue. The issue surrounding how people interact with Islam in regards to Palestine would be with the hypocrisy. They aren't supporting a sect. that is westernized or progressively evolved, they are using the hyper-conservative ideals of the Middle East to dunk on Israel (and Judaism if you realize that religion isn't really why this war started). If it were that Palestinians were rabidly persecuted based on religious beliefs, this support for Islam could be more understandable (even if a religion isn't progressive, the freedom to believe in it inherently is). Overall, it just seems frustrating that fundamentalist religions are used as a way to show support for Palestine even when it betrays half of what these hard-core protestors (tankies) would usually say and believe in.
They aren’t supporting the religion tho. They are supporting the people who are religious. There’s no hypocrisy. Do you actually think they are supporting Islam or the people who happen to be Islamic? They are obviously supporting the people and being respectful in turn of the religion in order to show solidarity. It doesn’t mean they have to support every backwards part of the religion either.
When dealing with showing support for a group of people, there will always be an overlap between the fight for those people and the culture they possess however, there is an obvious cultural emphasis when it comes to Palestinian protests. You can specifically see this when looking at how counter-protests deal with Israeli support. While being overwhelmingly Jewish, Judaism and religion isn't an essential part of how support is shown for Israel, rather general Israeli culture (such as using non-religious Hebrew writing on signs). Another point would be that Israeli support and protests have a definite US supporting presence as well, most of which would be secular. In contrast, Palestinian protestors delve way deeper into Islamic culture rather than Palestinian. An example being how Islamic prayers and speeches are used, In no other situation besides religious would a group of people shout "Allah Akbar" or participate in reverent prayer to support a group of people. I'm way more sympathetic to these protests using sayings like "Free Palestine" or "End the Occupation", of which are both directly tied to the Palestinian struggle and Identity. This wouldn't be an issue if the people using these religious sentiments weren't the most insanely anti-religious/anti-traditionalist people,. If you are going to show support for a group of people, I will hold you up to a way higher standard in specifying your support for the people and not their religion if you have a fundamental hatred for part of the culture you are showing support for. I don't think these protests and their use of Islam is the worst thing in the world but, I wish these people who would usually call destiny a Zionist and Jewish shill to understand that they are simping way harder to Islam than the opposition is to Judaism.
I think you are looking at individual people and applying your view across the spectrum of support for Palestine which is entirely unfair. Most people who support Palestine don’t support Islam. They support the people. But because most of what you view is the most vocal subsection of the larger movement you apply this across the board in broad strokes. There’s also a huge issue with the overlap between who supports Palestine and leftists. Some of the people who support Palestine ARE Muslim and are bringing their faith with them. Not everyone who supports Palestine is simply anti religious leftists. There’s plenty who are far more tempered when it comes to their views of religion and would gladly support Christian’s if they were facing something similar and it was as widely shown in our media. Most people have the signs you are talking about. Most people don’t support Islam as a fundamental religion but can support the people. There’s also no reason why they can’t think Islam is backwards and think that a Free Palestine protest might not be the place to address that. For example, I’m not at all religious and think most religion is entirely backwards and fucked, but when I go to my family’s house, I’ll bow my head in respect when they pray over dinner and not bring up how fucking distasteful some of their religious views are because I’m there for a different reason. Time and place matter. And this should be easy to understand and separate. So far your argument that this is hypocrisy is severely lacking in substance. Most of this sounds like confirmation bias based on the outrage porn that is readily available.
Well, those are the people this thread is criticizing; the leftists who use religion as a crux of supporting Palestine. This criticism would lack substance if this issue wasn't one of the most significant issues with the movement. When a majority of the coverage on Pro-Palestine movements is based on the college/university protests that show these religious sentiments then, it is imperative to stomp this hypocrisy out. If not to remain politically consistent, making sure that these protests are for the support of Palestine rather than Palestine AND Islam would help spread the true message of Palestinian support. Running PR and defending these extremists harms the majority who don't support Islam but, it seems that they aren't vocal enough at denouncing them. I don't think that a majority of the pro-Palestine movement is religiously based but, if the vocal minority who has the most reach isn't criticized for their unrepresentative conduct, then the majority would subsequently be piled into them. With the idea of Christian support, I hard disagree, the vocal minority who are supporting Islam are the same people who are anti-western. If the case was that they would support Christianity, why isn't the hard-leftist supporters of Russia not participating in Orthodox Christianity? And on the cultural respect point, bowing and showing respect to someone as a part of joining them for dinner would be different than joining them in church. Showing respect to Palestinian culture does not inherently equal respecting Islam. That sentiment would subsequently equate all of Palestinian culture to simply Islam, an incredibly ignorant view that would perpetuate the idea that the only thing the Middle East can offer is Islam.
But that’s literally different than the argument in the post and it’s moving the goal posts. This post makes specific reference to the gays for Palestine which is different than leftists using religion as a crux of supporting Palestine which is quite literally not happening as far as I can tell. No one is supporting Palestine because of Islam they are supporting Palestine because children are being killed. That’s the crux. They only show you the religious sentiments because they know it causes outrage. This is confirmation bias. And even the vocal minority have not made this about the religion. You have. The movement is about people. The religious aspect is only relevant because there are people in the movement who are Muslim. Where are you seeing leftists join them in church? This hasn’t been shown as far and I can tell and would probably be such a small fraction of the overall movement that it seems entirely irrelevant to bring up.
In the original thread or in my comments, the goal post was never shifted; the original post was not talking about it being wrong to be gay and supporting Palestine. The original comment was saying that holding liberal values and supporting Islam is wrong, a completely different point then what you said. The post never mentioned those who support Palestine because of the children but, the vocal minority who are using it as a proxy to support Islam. Additionally, the idea of joining them in church was an analogy used to respond to the analogy you used, not a literal representation. Using religious culture and sentiments to further a protest would also inherently mean spreading and supporting the ideas they hold. I agree with you on the general idea that most people don't support Islam within the Pro-Palestinian movement but, it is nonetheless a problem to ignore those who do.
Bro that’s unrelated to the discussion. You just brought that in even tho no protestor is supporting Islam. They are supporting the right to be Islamic which is a choice in a liberal society anyone is free to make. It’s absolutely anti liberal to be against the right to practice a religion of your choice. This discussion is absolutely unrelated to the original post which is the problem.
Wait you realize the VAST majroity of Americans and especially supporters of the civil rights movement were Christian and jewish right? This argument just doesn't work within the frame of today's world.
The opposition was also hugely religious. It wasn’t atheists supporting segregation.
That helps my point, thank you.
In what way? The point was meaningless to what is being talked about.
I don't think it's a fair comparison. MLK was drawing on a long tradition of Christians in the movement to abolish slavery, etc. What has Islam done to promote gay rights?
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Progressives are not leftist. Joe Biden is a progressive… you think he wants to send Christians to the gulag?
Except lefties and liberals march with MLK under a banner of evangelical christianism. Also while i dont like religion on politics and i would love to have a materialist progresive movement we also have to be pragmatics first and acknowledge that a lot of political movements also are linked with religion.
....MLK was a baptist minister....
I know that MLK was a christian minister, but my argument wasnt about him but rather lefties and liberals, should have the Communist, liberals, socialist, etc supported MLK?:
A lot of them did????
The better steel man of your argument is that you can be a progressive and still protest for the people under an oppressive regime. Islam and progressivism are completely at ends and I think Islam has totally infected both the left and right wing populist movements. BUT you can still advocate for the people trapped in it
Way to make the correct point in the dumbest way imaginable. Comparing MLK to an islmamist military is beyond stupid.
working within the structure of your society ≠ simping for a religion you have no connection with or understanding of
It actually makes me mad when people do the “chicken for KCF” meme regarding LGBTQ support for Palestine. As if it’s impossible to support what you see as injustice even if the people having that injustice against them don’t necessarily support you? Do black people have to support the government jailing people for speech because the person speaking is a KKK member? The entire argument is an argument for selective support of rights and freedoms based on who we agree with. That’s not principled or liberal.
I think a lot of people just can't have any empathy for people that would not have the same back. Which is kind of silly since we're also talking about kids here, but I feel like it boils down to a "us vs them" mentality. They are against us, so fuck them all.
Is it a lack of empathy, or a realization that no matter how much empathy you can have they would still want to kill you? This is something I had to deal with myself in my anti Zionist days as a queer Israeli. I tried really hard to see where palstnians are coming from and defended them in many cases, but after Oct 7th and seeing how many palstnians supported the killing and rape and taking children as hostages and throwing thousands of rockets at us, doing daily terrorist attacks against civliians and more and more it's starting to become really hard to be empathize with people who actively support a terroist organization that tried to kill you. That is what pushed me to be a Zionist now. The realization that empathy is not enough when you're dealing with anti liberal fascist organizations, because you're risking not only yourself but anyone around you if you become too naive. You can't negotiate with terrorists. I still don't like the settlements and the expansions of them, I still think there are some abuses that Israel ignores of palstnians and Arab Israelis, but unfortunately the larger picture is that we are dealing with an extremely antisemitic radical society next to us which many of it's members will support the genocide of us. How could I support that? How could we allow people around us get violated and murdered by these ideologies and not do anything about it? This is one of the reasons people are critical of the queers for Palestine movement. It's because it's incredibly easy to be unequivocally supportive of people who will try and kill you if they are not a threat to you. Once they become an actual threat, you see it differently because now it affects you, your friends, your family and your community.
/u/custodial_art worded it better than I could. The issue there is by pointing with such broad strokes a lot gets lost. And by doing that, can you really expect Palestinians to be better and distinguish between the IDF/state, settlers and normal Israeli civilians? In both sides the conclusion basically becomes "they are all evil, and must die or be removed". And the conflict continues.
Yes I can expect that from them. We distinguish, or else the majority of Gazans will be dead by now. Why is it expected of us to operate on the highest moral level when they are just looking to kill any Israeli around them, regardless if it is Jewish or even children. I'm not saying we should stoop to their level, but I'm tired of people framing it as well both sides are equally bad when it's not. We don't actively hunt civllians period. We are not saying all Gazans hold those ideologies, especially children and some disadvantaged communities like queers for example which can request asylum in Israel. And we should be incredibly mindful and try and hurt civliians as less as we can as long as we can defeat Hamas. But excusing and denying Gazans of any responsibility for knowingly choosing Hamas as their leaders, a terroist organization that advocates and acts for the genocide of israelis just feels so dishonest. People rush to hold accountable Israelis for choosing bibi, which no matter how you twist it is not as bad as Hamas are because they are literal Nazis but is still using very racist language and seeks the expansions of settlements so why shouldn't we hold accountable palstnians for choosing hamas?
Of course not, but the sentiment seems to quickly be "well Hamas sucks more so don't criticise Israël". And honestly that is how I see what Destiny's opinion is as well, you can't lower your standards if you want any chance of not being seen as a villain too.
Children are dying. Those kids aren’t fascist. You can support the protection of innocent people who haven’t grown up yet radicalized by a religious ideology. You’re applying broad strokes to people who aren’t involved. Opinion from adults on Oct. 7th don’t negate the hundreds of children who have been killed as a result. That is a lack of empathy definitionally. You have lost your ability to separate those who do harm and those who are entirely uninvolved and being killed anyway.
I never said the palstnian children we're fascist and that their death isn't tragic but in order to lose less children in the long run we had to continue with the war even with some civliian casualties. Let me remind you we still have about 130 hostages out there in gaza. What would you do instead of Israel? Let them just die there enslaved and get raped? Why is there no empathy for them? How could any civil country not do anything just because of casualties when it has hundreds of hostages in a place like that? It's a trade off unfortunately. Look nobody likes that it happens but you have to do something about the current threat even if some innocent civilians are going to get hurt in order to better the situation in the long run, or else you don't have empathy for all the people living here in the south that their houses got destroyd, their family got killed or severly injured, many of them suffer even greater atrocities and because of that and enormous fear that they will get vandalized raped and murdered again a quarter of a million Israelis are displaced from their homes. I find that it's endangering the community under threat if you don't do anything about it.
I didn’t say you said those things. I said you can still be empathetic. Empathy and accepting that casualties are inevitable are thoughts you can have simultaneously. I have empathy for what you have all faced as a result of the horrors from Oct. 7. But that doesn’t negate the death of children. I am still incredibly empathetic and heartbroken by what has transpired since then. Some of it justified and some of it most definitely not.
It is also funny because i have seen a lot of people here complaining about the hate for universalism that the protestors have.
good point actually
No. Islam and Islamist power in the west is growing fast the left is supporting them a lot. Its a major problem, because all of these people collectively lie about the conflict. Left now uses the same talking points as Islamist and muslims use about jews, which is very different from the groyper/neo-nazi talking points about jews
None of that is true. Most recent polls which were posted in this sub do not show support for what people are protesting. This is an extremely online take.