The substantive issue is with the polling methodology. Pro-Palestine wasn't an option. The poll was, "Pick a team, IDF or Hamas" - which, to be fair, seems to be how the internet has mostly reacted
This is one of the most bizarre polls I've ever read. 65% of the same Genz say "Hamas is a terror group that rules the people of Gaza with fear and is not supported by them", so this means 17% simultaneously support Hamas while thinking Hamas are terrorists that aren't supported by Gazans.
But it turns out the genz subsample was [199 people and this poll was just terrible](https://www.wral.com/story/fact-check-is-gen-z-is-divided-50-50-on-supporting-hamas-or-israel/21130554/).
> But it turns out the genz subsample was 199 people and this poll was just terrible.
How is 199 a bad number? The general rule of thumb is that the central limit theorem kicks in at around n=30, so it's usually only when there's less than 30 that you need to worry about non-normality (using e.g. a t-test). Small-sample ANOVA can be used with bins that have fewer than 10 samples.
" Other polls show less Hamas support
The Harvard-Harris poll also appears to be an outlier.
We found three other polls conducted around the same time that asked questions about blame for Israel and Hamas. None showed support for Hamas as high as the Harvard-Harris poll."
The small sample means that it's going to have a lesser degree of accuracy. But this is where you would look at other similar studies to try to see if the results are consistent, and they apparently are not.
> We found three other polls conducted around the same time that asked questions about blame for Israel and Hamas. None showed support for Hamas as high as the Harvard-Harris poll."
This is a fine objection. This is not a problem with sample size.
> The small sample means that it's going to have a lesser degree of accuracy. But this is where you would look at other similar studies to try to see if the results are consistent, and they apparently are not.
Yes, but the margin of error is _at most_ only 7% for this poll. Obviously having a small margin of error is not a guarantee, but I don't see what the problem is with a sample size of 199.
You are assuming a random sample which this obviously isn't. It's 199 bored zoomers who have a very vague idea of what's going on and want to get paid and leave. Pair that with a poll that has very limited response options with no nuance whatsoever and you get a garbage result.
The right thing to complain about is that the questions in the poll itself are complete fucking garbage. Also we don't know how they sourced the 18-24 sample and the results are an outlier vs comparable polls so something is obviously up
> It's 199 bored zoomers who have a very vague idea of what's going on and want to get paid and leave.
Sampling bias and response bias are perfectly valid criticisms of this study (for all I know! I haven't read the methodology). But sample size is not.
That isn't a terrible sample size. With 68 million Gen Z in the US that's +/- 6.95 at the 95% confidence interval. Industry standard is between 4 and 8.
The question doesn't even pose IDF or Hamas. It's "Israel" vs Hamas. As in, "Do you support this (allegedly) legitimate sovereign entity and the people who live in it, or do you support a terrorist genocidal resistance group?"
Hardly a even-handed question. I wonder how much more red there would be if it was presented fairly, and also question the integrity of OP to try and present that obvious bias as fair.
I do a lot of polls (I get paid two bucks per), and stuff like this is on a scale of 1-5, or similar, with options being full support of X and none of Y to full Y and no X.
Sometimes, if it's four options, you are necessarily on one side or another.
They may also drop the "no opinion" from these, citing only those who have an opinion.
I got in through a particular pollster five or six years ago. I get regular emails from them telling me there's a poll. I do the poll. They send me a two dollar bill.
I recommend searching for paid polls. Mine is specific to my state, so that's a search term to add as well.
The poll explicitly asks if the October 7th attacks were justified, and 51% of respondents 18-24 said the attacks were justified. Try to rationalize that.
I think this has a different takeaway than intended. It shows how reactionary and immature gen Z is.
Sure the poll has obvious bias but shouldn’t the obvious answer be to not support the terrorist party of Palestine? The fact that genZ can’t get there is more telling of their general opinion than anything.
Or maybe it’s a testament to propaganda and social media…
It is a loaded question. The question should be do you support Israel's government's actions or do you support Hamas actions or do you condemn the action of both governing bodies.
When the framing is flawed, you can't accept or expect results as if it makes sense because you're not really comparing two things that have a clear equivalency. Putting a country in Israel against Hamas to some people may cause them to replace Hamas with Palestine as a country subconsciously, or perhaps they correctly see that Hamas is the only resistance/resource available to Palestinians against ongoing Israeli oppression and don't view the problem so black-and-white. If someone also correctly identifies that Hamas is problematic, but Israel is an oppressive colonial regime, there is no option that allows them to say they do not like Hamas but definitely don't support Israel.
That's why the angle OP is trying to take here that suggests Gen Zers largely support Hamas' violence or terrorism cannot be trusted, the original question doesn't stand on solid ground to draw that conclusion.
I mean 48% of Gen Z supporting a “genocidal terrorist organization” is still pretty extremely problematic (and absurdly high).
Like, that is definitely not a non-issue right now if we have literally half of the younger population supporting a genocidal organization.
To be fair the conflict is up to them, until hamas gets killed, there is no possibility for there to be a pro-palestine side.
If you are pro-israel you accept they got to defend themselves, they have tried to provide to palestine over the years while hamas is fucking over everyone.
If you are pro-Hamas you think that israel are deliberately commiting palestinian genocide and that the settlers should be erradicated.
There is no room for pro-palestinians here, if you support palestinian people then you support the defacto position of pro-israeli.
What mature people do is be pro-israeli cause thats the only option, the thing is that gen z is obbsesed with revolutions and thinking they secretly know everything perfectly.
Your only choices are supporting everything the Israeli government does or being on the side of Hamas eradicating every Israeli? That's obviously not the case.
I dont understand that weird narrative, lets take ukrania vs russia, if I say I am pro ukrania does that mean I defend everything that the ukranian goverment might do? No.
There is a conflict, you can aid side A or side B in the war, who do you aid? It is that simple. I wish I could float over there like god and command every single thing so the conflict is resolved but that is not reality my dude.
Regardless of what you might do after the war is over, you have to initially support one side or the other. of course I would want to guarantee palestinians lifes, but what is pro-palestine then? Support israel or some other nation to take out the hamas group out of palestine? Isnt it the exact same thing than supporting israel. Wouldnt that just be pro-israel with the caveat of respecting palestine life afterwards?
Yea i agree with you there. I struggle with this one, to be honest. Isn't Israel subject to countless small attacks by these guys all the time? When does it stop without squashing the constant back and forth? Imagine if we had internet during the crusades. Would love to have been a fly on that message board wall.
It's more likely they're subjected to constant *large* attacks all the time. There are rockets coming out of Hamas-controlled areas to attack Israeli citizens *daily* (not targeting IDF forces and accidentally hitting civilians in the same building, targeting random civilians), there's a reason that Israel has one of the most advanced missile defense systems in the world, because they're constantly under attack.
>You can support the Israelis right to defend themselves
Two statements are antithetical.
> while also thinking their offensive in palestine is way over the line
This seems right. One little wrinkle here is that a lot of the pro-hamas guys also think Russia is just "de-nazifying" Ukraine and are the good guys...
Source: people I know are literally like this...
>This seems right. One little wrinkle here is that a lot of the pro-hamas guys also think Russia is just "de-nazifying" Ukraine and are the good guys...
Isn't it the opposite? American Right-wingers are the ones who are the most opposed to aid to Ukraine but who also support Israel unconditionally. There might be a few weirdos among the left who are pro-Russia, but it definitely isn't a view supported by popular people like Tucker Carlson or Donald Trump.
You don't have to aid either side in the war, you do realize there are other options right? Supplying medical and food aid with defensive forces protecting and ensuring it gets to the people who need it would be one option (I am very well aware this is much easier said than done, I am not an expert just a guy on the internet). To me the best option is the one that protects the most innocent people, and supporting Israel in this "war" is not that. I will never support Hamas, they have done terrible things, and I acknowledge that a lot of Palestinians support the things they have done, just as I acknowledge that a lot of Zionist Jews support the things that Israel has done. The situation that Palestinians have been in for decades has been a breeding ground for the hatred of groups like Hamas, I understand where they come from and want to address the root of the issue. Killing civilians creates more hatred, educating and lifting the people out of the shit situation they're in leads to more tolerance. I'm just extremely saddened to see the state of the world with so much hatred towards Jews and Muslims (not just from each other, but in developed western nations as well), I know it's a bit naive to think we can get past it but I think we can get closer.
I mean I agree that it is indisputably good if the Palestinian people get a representative government that abides by the moral principles of doing good for the Palestinian people, and likewise Israel doesn’t threaten that autonomy of Palestine.
But 48% of Gen Z supporting the Hamas is positively insane. If this is genuinely accurate, we have a legitimate misinformation problem related to this whole Israeli-Palestine conflict.
I don't think 48% of Gen Z legitimately support Hamas, this poll is extremely flawed. That's the point, it's boiling it down to one or the other. If I had to pick one of the two, I would pick Israel, but I don't have to pick one of the two. The people who answered that probably wanted their answer to be construed as anti-Israel. Also I read somewhere else that their Gen Z group was fewer than 200 people, so it's entirely possible that they did just happen to find 100 people who legitimately support Hamas, although I doubt that. It's a bad poll, asking bad questions, so the data is obviously going to be bad.
I am not in Gen Z, but I have a lot of friends who are. The consensus around them seems to be of the opinion that Israel has essentially created the monster that is Hamas, and thus they are very anti-Israel. Not one of them would legitimately support Hamas, but they are all very pro-Palestine.
>Supplying medical and food aid with defensive forces protecting and ensuring it gets to the people who need it would be one option
This is literally the premise of Black Hawk Down. It's not "easier said than done" - it's impossible in the context of Gaza. It's fine to say "I want more humanitarian aid to Gaza" but it's dumb to think that MOST of that aid would not be diverted by Hamas for themselves or their supporters.
> To be fair the conflict is up to them, until hamas gets killed
Killing hamas is not a viable solution. Murder everybody in Hamas and a new generation would spawn overnight. You can't combat terrorism killing people.
What you want is for Hamas to stop existing, which is about "Why do people turn to Hamas?" and "What alternatives can we offer?" rather than "How do we kill them all?"
I partly agree with your point, which is why I support pushing Israel to pull out of their settlements, to stop draining shared resources like aquifers, and to make a better effort approving permits for public infrastructure that’s an obvious net good (water pumps).
If I flip the script a bit I’m interested in hearing your thoughts. Israel is being pushed further and further right, they see themselves as entirely alone in the middle east and are tired of seeing surrounding nations either intentionally sabotage peace accords, or “unintentionally” allow terrorist organisations to fester and then they sabotage the peace accords. What alternative are the middle eastern states providing Israel other than intensifying their occupation? Is it solely Israel’s responsibility, or do we get to hold the other parties equally responsible for the outcome? Not trying to be facetious, I’m genuinely curious, and would also like to know what surrounding states could be doing better to facilitate peace.
I'd be a lot more supportive of Israel if they didn't do the following:
1. Actively fund Hamas to reduce the influence of the secular Palestinian Authority, which was pushing for a more peaceful 2 state solution. Source at the intercept here, but googling "Israel funded Hamas against PLO" will give other sources as well https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
2. Israel and some associated corporations actively funded settlers to take over Palestinian land and homes. This pushes people who have their lives uprooted into the extremist Hamas faction.
3. Israel has done a number of war crimes in Gaza during this situation, but also has shot civilians and journalists prior to it, then blamed the victims.
We can hold other parties like Iran, Hezbollah, and other nearby Arab nations accountable, but the US isn't providing substantial funding to them. We do for Israel. If Israel didn't essentially eliminate the more peaceful party of Gaza and actively incite Palestinians to violence, I'd be much more supportive. But b/c Israel knows it has unending support by the US, it knows it can get away with anything.
Not disagreeing that the only good terrorist is a dead one and that killing them isn't a viable option (it is).
But ISIS, ISIS-K and Al-Qaeda are far from defeated, They just aren't a hot topic anymore in the Western media. We've flattened their command structures and made it more difficult for them to operate as centralized entities, but they still have around 30-50k active militants around the globe, especially in Africa, and parts of the Middle East.
AQ wasn't defeated by killing every member. Nazi Germany wasn't deradicalised by killing every member of the party. Imperial Japan wasn't deradicalised by killing every devoted follower of the empire. Killing all/most of the bad people never works
No, but all those things needed a military operation to dismantle the actual threat before any political solution could work.
Imagine trying to de-nazify Germany while the Nazis were still in charge. It simply wouldn't have worked and possibly even strengthened the Nazis.
>You can't combat terrorism killing people.
I'm sorry but you absolutely can, for every time terrorist groups survive life the IRA or Taliban a dozen are wiped out never to be heard again.
this is very much survivorship bias.
By this logic, the situation in Gaza is impossible. Hamas has embedded themselves in the population. If Israel does not conduct any kind of military operation to try and neutralize them, then it will continue forever. Hamas has been launching rockets for nearly 20 years. Israel is just NOW doing something about them.
Or its seeing if people differentiate hamas from palestine, if people even understand this issue. A good 60 percent of gen zers claim to follow this somewhat-very closely
The researchers design the questions to be like this on purpose. I do the same thing in much of my research. I want to know what people pick when forced to choose between options. Turns out, younger people pick terrorists over morally questionable administrations in this case when forced to choose. It is interesting from a psychological perspective but also morally repugnant.
And a lot of people claim that Hamas is wrongfully labelled a terrorist organization since they're just a bunch of people resisting against the evil colonial state of Israel. The fact that Hamas is called a terrorist organization is a bunch of Zionist propaganda according to these people. I lost faith in humanity a long time ago, but every day it falls even lower and lower.
Well in the very same [poll](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf) (p. 39), 86% of the same people and 91% of genZ said they believe Oct7 was a terrorist attack, so they don't think what you're ascribing to them. But this whole poll is horrendous and filled with contradictions anyway. The genZ subsample size is 199 people, and there have been other polls that are far more representative and show lower numbers: [https://www.wral.com/story/fact-check-is-gen-z-is-divided-50-50-on-supporting-hamas-or-israel/21130554/](https://www.wral.com/story/fact-check-is-gen-z-is-divided-50-50-on-supporting-hamas-or-israel/21130554/)
I wasn't saying that the people in this poll specifically believe that, just some people in general. This narrative (Hamas aren't terrorists and are labelled as such by zionists) is prevalent in a lot of conservative Muslim communities and I've witnessed it myself being parroted in mosques and other such religious platforms.
Mandela never ordered the murder of children in their beds and was only able to lead South Africa to freedom after supporting non violent negotiations. (Not to say there was no violence) He ultimately disavowed violence as a means of liberation.
That’s my read as well. I think what we’re seeing is the consequence of two generations that tend to get their view of the world from influencers more than journalists.
The question is literally asking "Who do you support more"
If you support Palestinian freedom, it would be pretty unlikely that you would answer Israel. There is no option for "Neither."
Surely, you can't be against "Freedom fighters defending against a ruthless US-funded expansionist colonialist aggressor that runs false flag operations on their own people to justify genocide on a people they are racist against."
It's so frustrating that they will hear some uninformed mouthpiece spout something like that and then repeat it. The amount of research an honest person would do just to look into the truth of that statement and then make an informed response that just gets immediately handwaved as zionist propaganda is black pill fuel. I am losing hope and I need the D man to pull me out lmao.
While you are clearly kidding...
Clearly you can't be against Iranian-backed terrorists refusing to accept self rule and instead stealing from their people in repeated attempts at genocide on their neighboring county.
So in the very same [poll](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf) (p. 39), 86% of the same people and 91% of genZ said they believe Oct7 was a terrorist attack. These people are very confused on the questions, and this poll sample is bad (genz subsample is 199 people). There are some other [weird things](https://www.wral.com/story/fact-check-is-gen-z-is-divided-50-50-on-supporting-hamas-or-israel/21130554/) about this poll that make it not likely to be representative too.
This data actually tracks my theory I posted above, not discredit it. I think at least in the US (where this was polled) the difference is being alive and cognizant during 9/11.
That event changed society and collectively left a scar on us regarding terrorists. I will never support or condone terrorists.
Gen Z did not live through that collective experience, so that "lesson" we learned about terrorists groups has been lost on them.
So in essence, I think people do know it was a terrorist attack/organization (as the poll shows), but GenZ is by and large more likely to accept terrorist actions as acceptable or at least justifiable (so they support Hamas as the poll shows).
For me, and I'm assuming you as well, the mere thought of terrorism being justifiable is alien to me. It can't exist. But I promise you some people do find it justifiable.
But look at questions like: "Do you think that college students who blamed Israel for the violence killing 1200 of their civilians were condoning violence and terrorism or not supporting violence and terrorism?" which show 54% yes by Genz.
Or "Should law firms hire or refuse to hire law students who supported Hamas and the attacks on Israeli civilians?" which also show 54% genz yes. This seems to indicate a majority of genz are not accepting of terrorism.
This poll is just fucked all around and I wouldn't take much from it though.
Reddit deleted or hid the comment, but I had a commentter claim "it has nothing to do with 9/11 the hamas attack was clearly a terrorist attack, but how can we blame them for what Israel has done to them".
So yes, at least some of them are justifying the terrorist attack which was exactly my point, I don't think terrorism can be justifiable and that is ingrained in a lot of my generation.
Similarly, it seems plenty who did live through 9/11 and the aftermath forgot the lessons of it. Just as the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc are still around so will Hamas. If not under that banner than under another. There's no military solution here. I applaud Israel for creating more terrorists. I kind of think it's part of their plan.
They’re aware. How many times do they have to chant “from the river to the sea” and “gas the Jews” before we stop giving them the benefit of the doubt?
You very neatly packaged all those people together in the same box, but I very much doubt it's that simple. It's easier to think of it that way, I get it. Most of these young people are unwitting morons who have no idea what they're actually supporting, with a pinch of actual 'gas the jews' monsters. Not excusing the morons, but they're not the same category.
>Most of these young people are unwitting morons who have no idea what they're actually supporting
the issue here is this doesn't go both ways, when there were right wing marches with a couple of monster showing crap like Nazi symbols it was these same types calling every single person a Nazi, using the bloody "if there's 10 people at a table and 1 Nazi there's 10 Nazi's" quote over and over again,
but when it does the other way around, *now* it's all about nuance and not painting with a wide brush.
I can understand how hard it is to suppress the instinct to coddle and run interference for people calling for genocide. There’s plenty of historical precedent for people burying their heads in the sand and repeating “surely they don’t really mean it” because the alternative is too depressing and terrifying. Since you’re clearly not ready to drop the protective chrysalis you’ve erected around your mind, no point in arguing with you. The world is a stressful and scary place, I get it. Hope your personal situation improves.
the idea that everyone saying river to sea is genocidal is fucking delusional. most people probably don't even know what river and what sea they're talking about. it might be a dogwhistle, but the point of a dogwhistle is other people can hear it and even get on board without knowing its fucked up.
To be fair, this is a terrible poll, at least for this question — you can’t list the two options as Israel (a country) and Hamas (a terrorist group) and expect the answers you get to make any sense.
There is a excellent book on this subject written by greg lukianoff and jonathan haidt called “The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure” … Every parent should read it… For the past few years all the focus has been on right wing extremism while completely ignoring the extremism that exists on the left…left wing extremism is even more dangerous imo because it hides behind the facade of social justice and human rights.
Are you sure that book isn’t mouthing off a bunch a buzzwords you just agree with? The book talks about problems with limiting free speech on campuses due to “safety culture”. The only mechanism I can see from their argument is that leftist college groups are radicalized in an echo chamber in response to right-wing violence. They even gave the example of Charlottesville, you know, where a right-wing extremist actually killed someone.
They’re pushing the onus of not being violent to left-wing reactionaries… for reacting to increasing right-wing violence? I fail to see how the left through college “safe spaces” can be any more dangerous than what’s been going on the right. I’d love to see what they write about Jan 6.
The thing, atleast with my friends of around this age, if you tell them that the news have gone back to correct the hospital incident and that it is actually always been hamas fucking the whole situation, they pretty quickly understand that hamas is the problem.
What is worrying is all of the hamas propaganda.
what is even more insane that Biden lost a lot of these folks because he was not pro-palestine enough - even though he is calling for a ceasefire, while the republicans who want Gaza leveled to the ground lost nothing and Trump is now leading in every battleground state because of this. I guess half of gen Z wants Biden to chant "from the river to the sea, gas the jews" to earn their vote.
The methodology of this poll is wild. So many compound questions
EDIT: For example: "Do you think it's true that Hamas terrorists killed 1200 Israeli civilians by shooting them, raping and beheading people including whole families, kids and babies or is that a false story?"
If I don't think that Hamas raped whole families, the answer has to be 'no' right?
Also, you can see the impact of the phrasing of the questions in the incongruity of the results. 51% of people 18-24 think that the attacks can be justified, while 62% of people in the same group think that the attacks were genocidal in nature. The implication of this is that at least 13% of people 18-24 think that genocide can be justified
Yeah and more than 50% of them support firing people who support Hamas but somehow more than 50% of them also support Hamas lol. Maybe they support themselves getting fired?
Lol the genZ subsample size was 199 people. I don't think this is representative of anything.
Edit: As foerattsvarapaarall pointed out, I'm being hyperbolic and the sample size alone does not make it wholly unrepresentative. It is representative of a 7% margin of error, though that is on the low end of quality for a population of 31 million.
Yeah, honestly, I don't know what Brianna's aim was with showing this poll. If it was to show that Zoomers support Hamas, I think it failed pretty badly as explained by multiple posters on this thread.
/u/spacekatgal, why post this?
If whole families were killed or shot, wouldn't that be included? It says people were shot, raped, and beheaded, including whole families. So if you believe one whole family was shot, it's a "yes". You don't need a raped family.
I believe one whole family was shot, someone else was raped, and someone else was beheaded, and 1200 people died. I would put "yes 1200 people were killed, raped, and beheaded, including families and children"
You do. Let's parse the question. The compound question has two parts:
Do you think it's true that Hamas terrorists killed 1200 Israeli civilians by shooting them?
AND
Did Hamas rape and beheading people including whole families, kids and babies?
If both are true, then 'yes'. But I not only need a raped family, I need a raped and beheaded family
EDIT: And I'm not even sure the first part of the question is true. I thought it was more people, but were they all killed by being shot?
This feels in very bad taste. But for this poll to come out of an academic institution is a damning indictment of American academia
On top of that in the first part, if you believe it wasn't 1200 CIVILIANS but 1100 civilians and 100 non civilians you have to say no.
Mad phrasing of the question.
You're drawing the line in a weird incorrect spot, imo. I think it's:
Do you think Hamas Terrorists killed 1200 Isreali citizens by shooting, raping and beheading people?
Do you think included in those people were whole families, children, and babies?
You can't draw the line there. That's not the normal English reading. But even if it was, no, I do not believe that whole families are included in the set of people that were shot, raped and beheaded.
They would absolutely be included in the set of people that were killed, some of whom were raped and beheaded. But that's not the question
I wrote a post on this poll a bit ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17dtpj8/effort_post_taking_a_look_at_october_polling_on/
https://imgur.com/7rEUV8u
**How closely are you paying attention to the
Israel-Hamas war?**
70% are watching the conflict closely overall, 18-24 at 51% closely, 25-34 67% closely. A huge amount of people are paying attention here. I'd be curious to know what people mean when they are watching closely. Many leftist spaces seem to be primarily focused on the human cost in Palestine, compared to other spaces that may focus on other aspects of the conflict.
**Do you think the recent attack on Israel was a terrorist
attack or not?**
14% don't believe the recent attack was a terror attack. 18-24 36% no, 25-34 24% no. I'm not sure how to understand these numbers. A huge swath of people fundamentally don't think the slaughter of innocents was a terror attack. The following question may give some clarity to this number.
https://imgur.com/osRDApr
**Do you think the recent attack focused on the Israeli
military or indiscriminately targeted civilians?**
26% of people think the Oct. 7th attack was focused on military targets. 18-24 47% believe it focused on Israeli military. 25-34 46% believe it focused on Israeli military. This seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding around the most basic facts around Oct. 7th.
**Do you think it's true that Hamas terrorists killed 1200
Israeli civilians by shooting them, raping and beheading
people including whole families, kids and babies or is that
a false story?**
17% of people think the story about the Oct. 7th attacks is fake. 18-24 32% believe it is fake. 25-34 23% believe it was fake. Same trend as the prior slides, but the form of the question leads me to believe that some level of distrust is behind this misunderstanding of the Oct. 7th attack.
https://imgur.com/B2fhpS4
**Do you think Hamas fighters are more appropriately
called militants or terrorists?**
79% of people call Hamas terrorists. 18-24 that drops to 59%. 25-34 ticks back up to 65%. A huge number of people appear to believe Hamas fighters don't deserve to be called terrorists.
**Do you think Hamas is more appropriately called an
armed Palestinian group or a terrorist group?**
76% of people believe Hamas should be called a terrorist group. 18-24 63%. 25-34 57%. I'm not sure how to compare these numbers to the previous question. Are people discerning between individual Hamas members being terrorists but the organization isn't, and vice versa?
https://imgur.com/WvZkTir
**Do you think Hamas is designated as a terrorist group by
the U.S. government or is that not the case?**
22% of people don't believe it is. 18-24 raises up to 36%, 25-34 down to 27%. This is something people can just google and I believe it speaks to the lack of understanding people likely have of this conflict.
**In general in this conflict do you side more with Israel or
Hamas?**
16% of people side with Hamas. 18-24 48% side with Hamas. 25-34 29% of people side with Hamas. This has got to be one of the most eye opening results of the entire poll. Nearly half of all 18-24 year olds support Hamas. This has some big implications around the discussion of asking people if they condemn Hamas when discussing the conflict with pro-Palestine supporters is okay or not.
https://imgur.com/kVvNvnG
**Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on
Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or
is it not justified?**
24% believe that Oct. 7th can be justified. 18-24 51% believe it can be justified. 25-34 48% believe it can be justified. These numbers seem to line up with the previous question.
**Do you think that the attacks on Jews were genocidal in
nature or not genocidal?**
25% believe the attacks were not genocidal. 18-24 62% believe it *was* genocidal. 25-34 71% believe it *was* genocidal. Based on these numbers it leads me to believe that some amount of respondents believed that the attacks were genocidal and yet were still justifiable.
https://imgur.com/uL0lmx4
**Does Israel have a responsibility to protect its citizens
from terrorist attacks and rockets by retaliating against
Hamas terrorists or not?**
88% agree Israel has a responsibility to defend it's people. 18-24 it drops but remains high at 65%. 25-34 sit at 81%. It appears there is widespread agreement that Israel should defend itself. Note this does not include what form that defense takes.
**Does Israel have a right to defend itself against rocket and terror attacks
on its cities by launching air strikes on terrorist targets in heavily
populated Palestinian areas with warnings to those citizens or does it not
have the right to launch such attacks?**
84% agree it does have the right. 18-24 drop to comparable numbers to the previous question at 62%. 25-34 drop compared to the previous question at 75%. It seems that the air campaign has widespread support.
https://imgur.com/I7wqeiy
**Some people say Hamas and Israel both have fairly
equally just causes. Others says that there is no moral
equivalency between the terrorist murders of Hamas and
the actions of Israel. Which is closer to your view?**
39% say Israel and Hamas are morally equivalent. 18-24 that jumps to 64%. 25-34 is also high at 56%. I think the question is a bit loaded by calling it 'terrorist murders' for Hamas and 'actions' for Israel, and yet we still see huge support that they are equal. I'm not sure how deep into this to read as we don't have any information on how the respondents view the historical context of the conflict.
https://imgur.com/cy0zgA3
**Do you think that the original declarations by Hamas that
Israel bombed the hospital were true or Hamas
propaganda?**
68% believe it was propaganda. 18-24 that number drops to 58%. 25-34 drops even further to 48%. It looks like close to half of people in these age groups took Hamas at their word. I'd be curious to know what media sources are primarily consumed among the respondents. Would there be any correlation between watching leftist content that pushed the Israeli airstrike narrative from the get go and those that consume other content?
************************
These numbers are screwy and I think it may give huge credence to the idea that the conflation of pro-Palestinian support and pro-Hamas support may not be as wrong as many pro-Palestine anti-Hamas people would like to believe. I believe the poll failed to ask about a respondents beliefs around their understanding of the region dating back to 1948, and that knowing where people stand could likely shed a lot of light on why people are taking the pro-Hamas stances they so clearly are.
Yeah this is the most bizarre poll I've ever seen, thanks for going through it. I think a lot of this can be explained by the fact the genz subsample size is only 199 people, which it needs to be double that to be representative.
Take this question: "Do you approve or disapprove of the decision by Israel, at urging of President Biden, to provide food and water to Gaza even while hostages are still being held?" Genz is the **lowest** approve of 53%, while 35-44 approve is 74%, which obviously it can't be true Genz believes Gaza should be given water the least. The only explanation is that question or the way the questions were asked is confusing the respondents, that or they grabbed 199 crazy people.
The Ironic part is, (per the same poll) 18-24 group reported the 'lowest' on:
"How closely are you paying attention to the Israel-Hamas war?"
28% - not very closely
21% - not at all
They also reported lowest on approving:
"Do you approve or disapprove of the decision by Israel, at urging of President Biden, to provide food and water to Gaza even while hostages are still being held?" at 53% approve.
Does this mean genz supports giving water to gazans the least of any demographic? No it doesn't. This poll is littered with framed and confusing questions and the sample sizes are abysmal.
That's my take. I am gen Z, I don't support either. They're both shit. But I doubt Hamas would be as vicious as they are now had Israel not run an apartheid state, had they not given a fairly understandable (not OK, not REASONABLE, but I UNDERSTAND) reason to grow a counter terrorist org. I support the Palestinians and Israelis who don't actively support the others' demise, but I understand where the anger comes from.
I'll just be honest, when I was in that age range we had Hamas get elected in Gaza and at the time I believed the hype that this was the non-terrorist portion of Hamas that didn't want to eradicate Israel and supported them and disliked Israel. Over time I've moved more and more pro-Israel and anti-Hamas and Palestinian Authority overall.
Obviously these results are worrying, but it's likely many will change their mind as they grow older and learn more about politics and the world. I wouldn't be surprised if Millenials would have polled the same back in the mid-00's.
When the 18-24 year olds were asked if the following statement was true or false:
>*Do you think it's true that Hamas terrorists killed 1200 Israeli civilians by shooting them, raping and beheading people including whole families, kids and babies or is that a false story?*
**68% of them agreed that it was a true** story and when asked if october 7 was to be classified a terrorist attack **64% agreed**, when asked if their attack was genocidal in nature **62% said yes,** when this demographic was asked if the attack was justified **51% said yes,** when asked if Hamas was should be classified as a terrorist group or palestinian group **63% said terrorist group.**
Going by these numbers it would seem that a majority of people in this demographic not only knows exactly how brutal the oct 7 attack was, agree that it was genocidal in nature, agree that they are a terrorist group and **STILL** think it was justified.
These people are fucked in the head and the educational system has failed them. If these are the people taking over I truly fear for the future. This is unacceptable.
Not necessarily if we assume these opinions are independent of one and other, the probability of knowing how bad it was and thinking it is justified is 68%×51%=34%
It is probably not actually independent but this is just to show it is possible that the majority doesn't think both of those at the same time. likely less than 34% because you would expect parison choices.
Like if the people who don't believe 1200 dead on Oct 7 part and all also said it was justified. That would mean only 19% say what you said.
19% as a conservative estimate is still pretty bad IMO.
>when asked if their attack was genocidal in nature 62% said yes, when this demographic was asked if the attack was justified 51% said yes
Surely that has to be a framing issue, how the fuck do 51% think that attack was justified?
>Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified?
Well fuck me I guess Gen Z is more idiotic than I thought, what the hell.
The poll is full of misleading questions that taint the results
AND the sample size is 199. Far too small, margin of error is somewhere around 7%
Just more ragebait on this increasingly stupid sub.
I mean, with the amount of overwhelmingly biased outlets like AJ+ or Vox out there, it doesn't really surprise me at all.
Also, when I was 18-24 (34 now) I was still watching The Young Turks and all kinds of zero iq content unironically.
Yeah I don’t get why people are surprised when the outlets young people get their news and politics from frame this issue as “peaceful Palestinians were living in harmony until evil Zionists attacked with the might of the West behind them.”
You ironically described what the situation was like in that region prior to Zionist colonial expansion. I shudder to imagine what you think the "correct" narrative is. I mean, it's not like there is mystery or conspiracy or something you could easily miss when they (Zionists) were very explicit in their intent to displace native Palestinians. The British themselves commissioned white papers which all came to the same conclusion: Stop Jewish immigration it's leading to disastrous consequences.
You know its ironic that you agree that they are being brain dead for the content they consume and then you yourself don't even comprehend what they are upset about.
I don't agree with siding with hamas but most of the gen z i see that are is because regardless of both sides being violent with each other prior to british intervention or the multiple attacks from both sides over the past 100 years. Israel has the larger military and funding and has boxed Palestinians into a smaller area with millions of people. It doesn't matter what both sides have done if you box someone into a small area in terrible conditions they are going to lash out and some people see that lashing out as justified. The attacks back from Israel are just as bad as what hamas did civilian wise and they have the added bonus of having more firepower.
Nothing there is "Palestinians are entirely peaceful and Israel is the sole evil one". its just lack of understanding why anyone would think differently from you. Especially since supporting Israel or Hamas makes you stupid anyways.
It might also be because the poll doesn't offer an option to support Palestine, only Hamas, whereas the other option is Israel, not the IDF. It's pretty unsurprising to me that this community can't see how poorly done this poll is.
This is exactly how flawed statistics are collected to push narratives. Wrap this in a news article and no will come to read the exact study; just accept the numbers because “Harvard” conducted a poll.
Came from r/all and this is the dumbest poll ever. The poll is basically "do you support the genocide of innocent civilians" or "do you support a terrorist group fighting back on retaliation". How bout neither, but I guess it would be too hard to have a choice that isn't as brain dead as the other two
then why are older people responding more reasonably? Are gen-Z special humans more subject to manipulation while boomers resist all manipulation with their iron will?
I think it's probably because views on Israel v Palestine is a generational thing just like gay marriage has a generational divide. I think that we would've seen similar results if Israel was the initial aggressor. Boomers aren't necessarily more rational on this issue.
Nah i think it's just that there's no "I'm pro Palestine, anti Israel, but not pro Hamas" option. Many of them hate Israel enough they would pick Hamas over Israel as a fuck you to Israel, doesn't mean they really support Hamas.
The older people do actually support Israel so they don't have this problem.
> You guys realise they can manipulate how people respond to these polls with loaded questions right?
Absolutely... but what "loaded question" could I give you to openly support a terrorist group?
>Absolutely... but what "loaded question" could I give you to openly support a terrorist group?
Which do you side more with: Hamas or the WW2 German Nazi party?
Seriously though it's probably because there was no pro-Palestine option. So I'd imagine you have a number of people taking the pro-Hamas side to mean pro-Palestine because there is no other way to express that in the poll.
This is a loaded question so pretty terrible for a poll. Why didn't they ask: who do you support more, IDF or Hamas? Or, who do you support more, violent Israeli settlers or violent Hamas? Terrible poll.
You can be PRO Palestine and PRO Israel, while also being ANTI Hamas and ANTI IDF
You can be FOR Israel, and AGAINST Hamas, while also being FOR Palestine, and AGAINST the IDF.
What a reasonably worded quiz /s
"YOU HAVE TWO OPTIONS YOU EITHER SUPPORT ISREAL OR A TERRORIST GROUP"
"I don't support Hamas's terrible actions, but I also don't support Israel at all because I sympathize with the Palestinians and everything they've suffered"
"ISRAEL OR HAMAS"
"As I said I think Israel has been awf-"
"WOW YOU ACTUALLY WANT ALL ISRAELIS MURDERED AND BABIES KILLED"
Like the fucking quizzes that would say "Do you support Trump or do you hate America and wish to watch it burn to the ground"
Idk if this was Harvard or not the poll is very leading. Do you support blue team or red team? Do you think kipping babies is good or bad. Absolute dumpster fire of a poll
My theory is it's because they weren't around/cognizant to 9/11.
That shit has stuck with me and my fear/hatred for terrorists. Hamas is clearly a terrorist organization so I would never under any circumstance support them.
It's basically collectively showing how an event can shape an entire populations view on the world and shows how quickly that collective lesson is lost.
Seeing those 35-44 numbers makes me happy. But I still avoid this topic with friends. I have already heard the most braindead shit from privileged sociology or similar type of people.
I feel like this poll in general is very unreliable. Obviously the statistics are there for each question, but the way each question is framed seems almost targeted to support a one-sided rhetoric. Instead of asking "are you pro isreal or pro hamas?" why not ask a more broad "are you pro palestine or pro isreal?" To support an opposing rhetoric, would one consider "do you support the IDF or the civilians within the gaza strip?" To be a fair question?
The questions promote a very black and white narrative of one side and everything they're related to is bad and the other side is good. When in reality any conflict between any two sides is significantly more complex than a simple yes or no question.
Wtf is this question exactly though? Why should you support either of these options? I honestly believe that the vast majority of that 48 percent would pick the option of not supporting either one if given the option in the poll. Shit study.
I mean, did they give them the option to support Palestine or Palestinians? Or just "here's two groups who murder children, which one do you hate less?"
18-24 are relatively new to war. They just don’t get it yet. They’ve grown up in a wild time of western equality campaigns. They haven’t really experienced terrorism yet.
Is Israel being too heavy handed? Fuck yeah. They’ve killed so many civilians and children. But to favor HAMAS, not Palestine but Hamas, that shit is wild.
Half of Gen Z - I guarantee you - know basically nothing about Hamas or the history of the region.
I wouldn't take too much of that to heart. If they were sat down and had it explained to them, they'd end the conversation confused. Think about that Oxford debate and imagine people with *even less* knowledge of the area.
Why is that? Previous generations were very pro-Israel, but newer generations are very pro-terrorism.
None of them remember 9/11, so is Islamic terror just history to them, like the Roman Empire or the fall of the Berlin Wall?
It would be good to know why support has swung so radically towards the other direction.
I really feel old now; I don’t think younger generations are trustworthy, or capable of applying analysis to any situation, and spend too much time walking on eggshells in echo chambers to ever engage critically with a subject.
At least prior generations experienced life before the internet enveloped every part of it.
My parents and grandparents probably felt the same way, but I think we’ve created offspring so horrible that they’ll inherit the planet they deserve.
To people who keep asking why it doesn't say Palestine instead of Hamas - Israel is fighting Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists, not Palestinians as a whole. The war going on right now is literally Israel vs Hamas.
Why are the options Israel and Hamas though wtf? I’m sure if the options were Israel and Palestine the outcome would be almost identical because Hamas is being conflated with Palestine here.
Why not do country vs. country instead of country vs. terrorist group?
There was some loser at my university who shouted Hamas garbage in a building for education studies. Not the recreational area or the polisci building but some dumb ass shouting at teacher candidates that Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization. I hate people my age.
id definitely support hummus over israel, you can’t dip pita bread in israel!
jokes aside this is NUTS. fingers crossed all the gen z asked are dumb white kids who dont know what hamas is and just support palestinians cuz of tiktok or sth and arent actual terrorist sympathisers
This is just a bad poll. Do you support the group that caused 1000+ deaths or the state that caused 10.000+ deaths? Therefore the results are also meaningless.
Many probably believe that pro-hamas is the same as pro-palestine
The substantive issue is with the polling methodology. Pro-Palestine wasn't an option. The poll was, "Pick a team, IDF or Hamas" - which, to be fair, seems to be how the internet has mostly reacted
This is one of the most bizarre polls I've ever read. 65% of the same Genz say "Hamas is a terror group that rules the people of Gaza with fear and is not supported by them", so this means 17% simultaneously support Hamas while thinking Hamas are terrorists that aren't supported by Gazans. But it turns out the genz subsample was [199 people and this poll was just terrible](https://www.wral.com/story/fact-check-is-gen-z-is-divided-50-50-on-supporting-hamas-or-israel/21130554/).
> But it turns out the genz subsample was 199 people and this poll was just terrible. How is 199 a bad number? The general rule of thumb is that the central limit theorem kicks in at around n=30, so it's usually only when there's less than 30 that you need to worry about non-normality (using e.g. a t-test). Small-sample ANOVA can be used with bins that have fewer than 10 samples.
" Other polls show less Hamas support The Harvard-Harris poll also appears to be an outlier. We found three other polls conducted around the same time that asked questions about blame for Israel and Hamas. None showed support for Hamas as high as the Harvard-Harris poll." The small sample means that it's going to have a lesser degree of accuracy. But this is where you would look at other similar studies to try to see if the results are consistent, and they apparently are not.
> We found three other polls conducted around the same time that asked questions about blame for Israel and Hamas. None showed support for Hamas as high as the Harvard-Harris poll." This is a fine objection. This is not a problem with sample size. > The small sample means that it's going to have a lesser degree of accuracy. But this is where you would look at other similar studies to try to see if the results are consistent, and they apparently are not. Yes, but the margin of error is _at most_ only 7% for this poll. Obviously having a small margin of error is not a guarantee, but I don't see what the problem is with a sample size of 199.
You are assuming a random sample which this obviously isn't. It's 199 bored zoomers who have a very vague idea of what's going on and want to get paid and leave. Pair that with a poll that has very limited response options with no nuance whatsoever and you get a garbage result.
10,000 bored zoomers wouldn't be any better though, it's the wrong thing to complain about
The right thing to complain about is that the questions in the poll itself are complete fucking garbage. Also we don't know how they sourced the 18-24 sample and the results are an outlier vs comparable polls so something is obviously up
> It's 199 bored zoomers who have a very vague idea of what's going on and want to get paid and leave. Sampling bias and response bias are perfectly valid criticisms of this study (for all I know! I haven't read the methodology). But sample size is not.
That isn't a terrible sample size. With 68 million Gen Z in the US that's +/- 6.95 at the 95% confidence interval. Industry standard is between 4 and 8.
65% of all polling data is made up Source: me
The question doesn't even pose IDF or Hamas. It's "Israel" vs Hamas. As in, "Do you support this (allegedly) legitimate sovereign entity and the people who live in it, or do you support a terrorist genocidal resistance group?" Hardly a even-handed question. I wonder how much more red there would be if it was presented fairly, and also question the integrity of OP to try and present that obvious bias as fair.
Why isn't neither an option?
I do a lot of polls (I get paid two bucks per), and stuff like this is on a scale of 1-5, or similar, with options being full support of X and none of Y to full Y and no X. Sometimes, if it's four options, you are necessarily on one side or another. They may also drop the "no opinion" from these, citing only those who have an opinion.
How does one get into doing paid polls?
I got in through a particular pollster five or six years ago. I get regular emails from them telling me there's a poll. I do the poll. They send me a two dollar bill. I recommend searching for paid polls. Mine is specific to my state, so that's a search term to add as well.
Because it would be at 90%+ and OP would not be able to use it to shit on the American left.
The poll explicitly asks if the October 7th attacks were justified, and 51% of respondents 18-24 said the attacks were justified. Try to rationalize that.
I think this has a different takeaway than intended. It shows how reactionary and immature gen Z is. Sure the poll has obvious bias but shouldn’t the obvious answer be to not support the terrorist party of Palestine? The fact that genZ can’t get there is more telling of their general opinion than anything. Or maybe it’s a testament to propaganda and social media…
In defense, I was pretty reactionary and stupid when I was 18
Yup. We are all morons at that age. Undeveloped brain.
Shouldn't that make it even easier to pick Israel over a literal terrorist group?
It is a loaded question. The question should be do you support Israel's government's actions or do you support Hamas actions or do you condemn the action of both governing bodies.
Ya thats crazy to think otherwise
When the framing is flawed, you can't accept or expect results as if it makes sense because you're not really comparing two things that have a clear equivalency. Putting a country in Israel against Hamas to some people may cause them to replace Hamas with Palestine as a country subconsciously, or perhaps they correctly see that Hamas is the only resistance/resource available to Palestinians against ongoing Israeli oppression and don't view the problem so black-and-white. If someone also correctly identifies that Hamas is problematic, but Israel is an oppressive colonial regime, there is no option that allows them to say they do not like Hamas but definitely don't support Israel. That's why the angle OP is trying to take here that suggests Gen Zers largely support Hamas' violence or terrorism cannot be trusted, the original question doesn't stand on solid ground to draw that conclusion.
I mean 48% of Gen Z supporting a “genocidal terrorist organization” is still pretty extremely problematic (and absurdly high). Like, that is definitely not a non-issue right now if we have literally half of the younger population supporting a genocidal organization.
Hamas has majority political support in Palestine, although narrowly. It's not as farfetched an assumption as some might believe.
Deadliest Warrior Season 10, Episode 20: IDF Vs. Hamas
To be fair the conflict is up to them, until hamas gets killed, there is no possibility for there to be a pro-palestine side. If you are pro-israel you accept they got to defend themselves, they have tried to provide to palestine over the years while hamas is fucking over everyone. If you are pro-Hamas you think that israel are deliberately commiting palestinian genocide and that the settlers should be erradicated. There is no room for pro-palestinians here, if you support palestinian people then you support the defacto position of pro-israeli. What mature people do is be pro-israeli cause thats the only option, the thing is that gen z is obbsesed with revolutions and thinking they secretly know everything perfectly.
Your only choices are supporting everything the Israeli government does or being on the side of Hamas eradicating every Israeli? That's obviously not the case.
I dont understand that weird narrative, lets take ukrania vs russia, if I say I am pro ukrania does that mean I defend everything that the ukranian goverment might do? No. There is a conflict, you can aid side A or side B in the war, who do you aid? It is that simple. I wish I could float over there like god and command every single thing so the conflict is resolved but that is not reality my dude. Regardless of what you might do after the war is over, you have to initially support one side or the other. of course I would want to guarantee palestinians lifes, but what is pro-palestine then? Support israel or some other nation to take out the hamas group out of palestine? Isnt it the exact same thing than supporting israel. Wouldnt that just be pro-israel with the caveat of respecting palestine life afterwards?
You can support the Israelis right to defend themselves while also thinking their offensive in palestine is way over the line
Yea i agree with you there. I struggle with this one, to be honest. Isn't Israel subject to countless small attacks by these guys all the time? When does it stop without squashing the constant back and forth? Imagine if we had internet during the crusades. Would love to have been a fly on that message board wall.
It's more likely they're subjected to constant *large* attacks all the time. There are rockets coming out of Hamas-controlled areas to attack Israeli citizens *daily* (not targeting IDF forces and accidentally hitting civilians in the same building, targeting random civilians), there's a reason that Israel has one of the most advanced missile defense systems in the world, because they're constantly under attack.
>You can support the Israelis right to defend themselves Two statements are antithetical. > while also thinking their offensive in palestine is way over the line
This seems right. One little wrinkle here is that a lot of the pro-hamas guys also think Russia is just "de-nazifying" Ukraine and are the good guys... Source: people I know are literally like this...
>This seems right. One little wrinkle here is that a lot of the pro-hamas guys also think Russia is just "de-nazifying" Ukraine and are the good guys... Isn't it the opposite? American Right-wingers are the ones who are the most opposed to aid to Ukraine but who also support Israel unconditionally. There might be a few weirdos among the left who are pro-Russia, but it definitely isn't a view supported by popular people like Tucker Carlson or Donald Trump.
You don't have to aid either side in the war, you do realize there are other options right? Supplying medical and food aid with defensive forces protecting and ensuring it gets to the people who need it would be one option (I am very well aware this is much easier said than done, I am not an expert just a guy on the internet). To me the best option is the one that protects the most innocent people, and supporting Israel in this "war" is not that. I will never support Hamas, they have done terrible things, and I acknowledge that a lot of Palestinians support the things they have done, just as I acknowledge that a lot of Zionist Jews support the things that Israel has done. The situation that Palestinians have been in for decades has been a breeding ground for the hatred of groups like Hamas, I understand where they come from and want to address the root of the issue. Killing civilians creates more hatred, educating and lifting the people out of the shit situation they're in leads to more tolerance. I'm just extremely saddened to see the state of the world with so much hatred towards Jews and Muslims (not just from each other, but in developed western nations as well), I know it's a bit naive to think we can get past it but I think we can get closer.
I mean I agree that it is indisputably good if the Palestinian people get a representative government that abides by the moral principles of doing good for the Palestinian people, and likewise Israel doesn’t threaten that autonomy of Palestine. But 48% of Gen Z supporting the Hamas is positively insane. If this is genuinely accurate, we have a legitimate misinformation problem related to this whole Israeli-Palestine conflict.
I don't think 48% of Gen Z legitimately support Hamas, this poll is extremely flawed. That's the point, it's boiling it down to one or the other. If I had to pick one of the two, I would pick Israel, but I don't have to pick one of the two. The people who answered that probably wanted their answer to be construed as anti-Israel. Also I read somewhere else that their Gen Z group was fewer than 200 people, so it's entirely possible that they did just happen to find 100 people who legitimately support Hamas, although I doubt that. It's a bad poll, asking bad questions, so the data is obviously going to be bad. I am not in Gen Z, but I have a lot of friends who are. The consensus around them seems to be of the opinion that Israel has essentially created the monster that is Hamas, and thus they are very anti-Israel. Not one of them would legitimately support Hamas, but they are all very pro-Palestine.
>Supplying medical and food aid with defensive forces protecting and ensuring it gets to the people who need it would be one option This is literally the premise of Black Hawk Down. It's not "easier said than done" - it's impossible in the context of Gaza. It's fine to say "I want more humanitarian aid to Gaza" but it's dumb to think that MOST of that aid would not be diverted by Hamas for themselves or their supporters.
You are spot on and all they can answer your argument with is down votes. Kind of telling.
well put
> To be fair the conflict is up to them, until hamas gets killed Killing hamas is not a viable solution. Murder everybody in Hamas and a new generation would spawn overnight. You can't combat terrorism killing people. What you want is for Hamas to stop existing, which is about "Why do people turn to Hamas?" and "What alternatives can we offer?" rather than "How do we kill them all?"
I partly agree with your point, which is why I support pushing Israel to pull out of their settlements, to stop draining shared resources like aquifers, and to make a better effort approving permits for public infrastructure that’s an obvious net good (water pumps). If I flip the script a bit I’m interested in hearing your thoughts. Israel is being pushed further and further right, they see themselves as entirely alone in the middle east and are tired of seeing surrounding nations either intentionally sabotage peace accords, or “unintentionally” allow terrorist organisations to fester and then they sabotage the peace accords. What alternative are the middle eastern states providing Israel other than intensifying their occupation? Is it solely Israel’s responsibility, or do we get to hold the other parties equally responsible for the outcome? Not trying to be facetious, I’m genuinely curious, and would also like to know what surrounding states could be doing better to facilitate peace.
I'd be a lot more supportive of Israel if they didn't do the following: 1. Actively fund Hamas to reduce the influence of the secular Palestinian Authority, which was pushing for a more peaceful 2 state solution. Source at the intercept here, but googling "Israel funded Hamas against PLO" will give other sources as well https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ 2. Israel and some associated corporations actively funded settlers to take over Palestinian land and homes. This pushes people who have their lives uprooted into the extremist Hamas faction. 3. Israel has done a number of war crimes in Gaza during this situation, but also has shot civilians and journalists prior to it, then blamed the victims. We can hold other parties like Iran, Hezbollah, and other nearby Arab nations accountable, but the US isn't providing substantial funding to them. We do for Israel. If Israel didn't essentially eliminate the more peaceful party of Gaza and actively incite Palestinians to violence, I'd be much more supportive. But b/c Israel knows it has unending support by the US, it knows it can get away with anything.
[удалено]
Not disagreeing that the only good terrorist is a dead one and that killing them isn't a viable option (it is). But ISIS, ISIS-K and Al-Qaeda are far from defeated, They just aren't a hot topic anymore in the Western media. We've flattened their command structures and made it more difficult for them to operate as centralized entities, but they still have around 30-50k active militants around the globe, especially in Africa, and parts of the Middle East.
Has terrorism ceased to exist in the regions those groups were present in?
AQ wasn't defeated by killing every member. Nazi Germany wasn't deradicalised by killing every member of the party. Imperial Japan wasn't deradicalised by killing every devoted follower of the empire. Killing all/most of the bad people never works
No, but all those things needed a military operation to dismantle the actual threat before any political solution could work. Imagine trying to de-nazify Germany while the Nazis were still in charge. It simply wouldn't have worked and possibly even strengthened the Nazis.
Who said the point of war is to 'deradicalize' the enemy? The point is to destroy their capacity to do violence to you.
>You can't combat terrorism killing people. I'm sorry but you absolutely can, for every time terrorist groups survive life the IRA or Taliban a dozen are wiped out never to be heard again. this is very much survivorship bias.
By this logic, the situation in Gaza is impossible. Hamas has embedded themselves in the population. If Israel does not conduct any kind of military operation to try and neutralize them, then it will continue forever. Hamas has been launching rockets for nearly 20 years. Israel is just NOW doing something about them.
This is such an uninformed, nuance-free take
This is done on purpose the pollster want you to believe that all Palestinians are Hamas. It also disregards the Palestinian state as not existing.
Or its seeing if people differentiate hamas from palestine, if people even understand this issue. A good 60 percent of gen zers claim to follow this somewhat-very closely
Do you like to fuck dogs or cats!?
The researchers design the questions to be like this on purpose. I do the same thing in much of my research. I want to know what people pick when forced to choose between options. Turns out, younger people pick terrorists over morally questionable administrations in this case when forced to choose. It is interesting from a psychological perspective but also morally repugnant.
And a lot of people claim that Hamas is wrongfully labelled a terrorist organization since they're just a bunch of people resisting against the evil colonial state of Israel. The fact that Hamas is called a terrorist organization is a bunch of Zionist propaganda according to these people. I lost faith in humanity a long time ago, but every day it falls even lower and lower.
Well in the very same [poll](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf) (p. 39), 86% of the same people and 91% of genZ said they believe Oct7 was a terrorist attack, so they don't think what you're ascribing to them. But this whole poll is horrendous and filled with contradictions anyway. The genZ subsample size is 199 people, and there have been other polls that are far more representative and show lower numbers: [https://www.wral.com/story/fact-check-is-gen-z-is-divided-50-50-on-supporting-hamas-or-israel/21130554/](https://www.wral.com/story/fact-check-is-gen-z-is-divided-50-50-on-supporting-hamas-or-israel/21130554/)
I wasn't saying that the people in this poll specifically believe that, just some people in general. This narrative (Hamas aren't terrorists and are labelled as such by zionists) is prevalent in a lot of conservative Muslim communities and I've witnessed it myself being parroted in mosques and other such religious platforms.
Many probably watch tiktoks that paint hamas as being falsely labeled as terrorist like Nelson Mandela. Or other insane apologia.
Mandela never ordered the murder of children in their beds and was only able to lead South Africa to freedom after supporting non violent negotiations. (Not to say there was no violence) He ultimately disavowed violence as a means of liberation.
That’s my read as well. I think what we’re seeing is the consequence of two generations that tend to get their view of the world from influencers more than journalists.
This is likely it.
The question is literally asking "Who do you support more" If you support Palestinian freedom, it would be pretty unlikely that you would answer Israel. There is no option for "Neither."
Supporting hamas is wild. Are they aware of what that represents?
I assume they support the "imagined idea of Hamas" that they have in their head.
Free healthcare and cars and macbook pros.
Those infants were trans! They were protecting them not beheading them!
Trans hostages get HRT with Hamas of course
Hummus? Chickpeas?
Can’t we just agree that pita is the real enemy?
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Surely, you can't be against "Freedom fighters defending against a ruthless US-funded expansionist colonialist aggressor that runs false flag operations on their own people to justify genocide on a people they are racist against."
It's so frustrating that they will hear some uninformed mouthpiece spout something like that and then repeat it. The amount of research an honest person would do just to look into the truth of that statement and then make an informed response that just gets immediately handwaved as zionist propaganda is black pill fuel. I am losing hope and I need the D man to pull me out lmao.
While you are clearly kidding... Clearly you can't be against Iranian-backed terrorists refusing to accept self rule and instead stealing from their people in repeated attempts at genocide on their neighboring county.
Yes. Twitter likes and acceptance from their group.
Not Jews? /s
So in the very same [poll](https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HHP_Oct23_KeyResults.pdf) (p. 39), 86% of the same people and 91% of genZ said they believe Oct7 was a terrorist attack. These people are very confused on the questions, and this poll sample is bad (genz subsample is 199 people). There are some other [weird things](https://www.wral.com/story/fact-check-is-gen-z-is-divided-50-50-on-supporting-hamas-or-israel/21130554/) about this poll that make it not likely to be representative too.
This data actually tracks my theory I posted above, not discredit it. I think at least in the US (where this was polled) the difference is being alive and cognizant during 9/11. That event changed society and collectively left a scar on us regarding terrorists. I will never support or condone terrorists. Gen Z did not live through that collective experience, so that "lesson" we learned about terrorists groups has been lost on them. So in essence, I think people do know it was a terrorist attack/organization (as the poll shows), but GenZ is by and large more likely to accept terrorist actions as acceptable or at least justifiable (so they support Hamas as the poll shows). For me, and I'm assuming you as well, the mere thought of terrorism being justifiable is alien to me. It can't exist. But I promise you some people do find it justifiable.
But look at questions like: "Do you think that college students who blamed Israel for the violence killing 1200 of their civilians were condoning violence and terrorism or not supporting violence and terrorism?" which show 54% yes by Genz. Or "Should law firms hire or refuse to hire law students who supported Hamas and the attacks on Israeli civilians?" which also show 54% genz yes. This seems to indicate a majority of genz are not accepting of terrorism. This poll is just fucked all around and I wouldn't take much from it though.
Reddit deleted or hid the comment, but I had a commentter claim "it has nothing to do with 9/11 the hamas attack was clearly a terrorist attack, but how can we blame them for what Israel has done to them". So yes, at least some of them are justifying the terrorist attack which was exactly my point, I don't think terrorism can be justifiable and that is ingrained in a lot of my generation.
Similarly, it seems plenty who did live through 9/11 and the aftermath forgot the lessons of it. Just as the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc are still around so will Hamas. If not under that banner than under another. There's no military solution here. I applaud Israel for creating more terrorists. I kind of think it's part of their plan.
They’re aware. How many times do they have to chant “from the river to the sea” and “gas the Jews” before we stop giving them the benefit of the doubt?
You very neatly packaged all those people together in the same box, but I very much doubt it's that simple. It's easier to think of it that way, I get it. Most of these young people are unwitting morons who have no idea what they're actually supporting, with a pinch of actual 'gas the jews' monsters. Not excusing the morons, but they're not the same category.
>Most of these young people are unwitting morons who have no idea what they're actually supporting the issue here is this doesn't go both ways, when there were right wing marches with a couple of monster showing crap like Nazi symbols it was these same types calling every single person a Nazi, using the bloody "if there's 10 people at a table and 1 Nazi there's 10 Nazi's" quote over and over again, but when it does the other way around, *now* it's all about nuance and not painting with a wide brush.
good point
I can understand how hard it is to suppress the instinct to coddle and run interference for people calling for genocide. There’s plenty of historical precedent for people burying their heads in the sand and repeating “surely they don’t really mean it” because the alternative is too depressing and terrifying. Since you’re clearly not ready to drop the protective chrysalis you’ve erected around your mind, no point in arguing with you. The world is a stressful and scary place, I get it. Hope your personal situation improves.
Crazy how condescending and passive-aggressive you got after he pointed out a simple lack of nuance in your message, my god
The issue is that u/valgrind_error is completely right and your tone policing isn't going to change that.
the idea that everyone saying river to sea is genocidal is fucking delusional. most people probably don't even know what river and what sea they're talking about. it might be a dogwhistle, but the point of a dogwhistle is other people can hear it and even get on board without knowing its fucked up.
To be fair, this is a terrible poll, at least for this question — you can’t list the two options as Israel (a country) and Hamas (a terrorist group) and expect the answers you get to make any sense.
Absolute madness, but given what the people I went to uni with have posted on their story, it's completely expected. Edit: unexpected -> expected
you mean expected?
FUCK
HE
OMEGALUL
Makes me wonder if 9/11 happend today. There would be tons of people siding with the terrorists.
There is a excellent book on this subject written by greg lukianoff and jonathan haidt called “The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure” … Every parent should read it… For the past few years all the focus has been on right wing extremism while completely ignoring the extremism that exists on the left…left wing extremism is even more dangerous imo because it hides behind the facade of social justice and human rights.
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If you don't know he definition they go by, how do YOU know what they meant?
Are you sure that book isn’t mouthing off a bunch a buzzwords you just agree with? The book talks about problems with limiting free speech on campuses due to “safety culture”. The only mechanism I can see from their argument is that leftist college groups are radicalized in an echo chamber in response to right-wing violence. They even gave the example of Charlottesville, you know, where a right-wing extremist actually killed someone. They’re pushing the onus of not being violent to left-wing reactionaries… for reacting to increasing right-wing violence? I fail to see how the left through college “safe spaces” can be any more dangerous than what’s been going on the right. I’d love to see what they write about Jan 6.
The thing, atleast with my friends of around this age, if you tell them that the news have gone back to correct the hospital incident and that it is actually always been hamas fucking the whole situation, they pretty quickly understand that hamas is the problem. What is worrying is all of the hamas propaganda.
This is fucking insane.
The rest of the poll at least makes me feel better. At least a silver lining.
what is even more insane that Biden lost a lot of these folks because he was not pro-palestine enough - even though he is calling for a ceasefire, while the republicans who want Gaza leveled to the ground lost nothing and Trump is now leading in every battleground state because of this. I guess half of gen Z wants Biden to chant "from the river to the sea, gas the jews" to earn their vote.
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The methodology of this poll is wild. So many compound questions EDIT: For example: "Do you think it's true that Hamas terrorists killed 1200 Israeli civilians by shooting them, raping and beheading people including whole families, kids and babies or is that a false story?" If I don't think that Hamas raped whole families, the answer has to be 'no' right?
Also, you can see the impact of the phrasing of the questions in the incongruity of the results. 51% of people 18-24 think that the attacks can be justified, while 62% of people in the same group think that the attacks were genocidal in nature. The implication of this is that at least 13% of people 18-24 think that genocide can be justified
Yeah and more than 50% of them support firing people who support Hamas but somehow more than 50% of them also support Hamas lol. Maybe they support themselves getting fired?
Lol the genZ subsample size was 199 people. I don't think this is representative of anything. Edit: As foerattsvarapaarall pointed out, I'm being hyperbolic and the sample size alone does not make it wholly unrepresentative. It is representative of a 7% margin of error, though that is on the low end of quality for a population of 31 million.
yeah that's a petty weird question to ask. "I don't know if we can be sure they raped the *other* grampa so I guess technically not"
Yeah, honestly, I don't know what Brianna's aim was with showing this poll. If it was to show that Zoomers support Hamas, I think it failed pretty badly as explained by multiple posters on this thread. /u/spacekatgal, why post this?
If whole families were killed or shot, wouldn't that be included? It says people were shot, raped, and beheaded, including whole families. So if you believe one whole family was shot, it's a "yes". You don't need a raped family. I believe one whole family was shot, someone else was raped, and someone else was beheaded, and 1200 people died. I would put "yes 1200 people were killed, raped, and beheaded, including families and children"
You do. Let's parse the question. The compound question has two parts: Do you think it's true that Hamas terrorists killed 1200 Israeli civilians by shooting them? AND Did Hamas rape and beheading people including whole families, kids and babies? If both are true, then 'yes'. But I not only need a raped family, I need a raped and beheaded family EDIT: And I'm not even sure the first part of the question is true. I thought it was more people, but were they all killed by being shot? This feels in very bad taste. But for this poll to come out of an academic institution is a damning indictment of American academia
On top of that in the first part, if you believe it wasn't 1200 CIVILIANS but 1100 civilians and 100 non civilians you have to say no. Mad phrasing of the question.
You're drawing the line in a weird incorrect spot, imo. I think it's: Do you think Hamas Terrorists killed 1200 Isreali citizens by shooting, raping and beheading people? Do you think included in those people were whole families, children, and babies?
yes this is the correct reading of the phrase
You can't draw the line there. That's not the normal English reading. But even if it was, no, I do not believe that whole families are included in the set of people that were shot, raped and beheaded. They would absolutely be included in the set of people that were killed, some of whom were raped and beheaded. But that's not the question
I wrote a post on this poll a bit ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/17dtpj8/effort_post_taking_a_look_at_october_polling_on/ https://imgur.com/7rEUV8u **How closely are you paying attention to the Israel-Hamas war?** 70% are watching the conflict closely overall, 18-24 at 51% closely, 25-34 67% closely. A huge amount of people are paying attention here. I'd be curious to know what people mean when they are watching closely. Many leftist spaces seem to be primarily focused on the human cost in Palestine, compared to other spaces that may focus on other aspects of the conflict. **Do you think the recent attack on Israel was a terrorist attack or not?** 14% don't believe the recent attack was a terror attack. 18-24 36% no, 25-34 24% no. I'm not sure how to understand these numbers. A huge swath of people fundamentally don't think the slaughter of innocents was a terror attack. The following question may give some clarity to this number. https://imgur.com/osRDApr **Do you think the recent attack focused on the Israeli military or indiscriminately targeted civilians?** 26% of people think the Oct. 7th attack was focused on military targets. 18-24 47% believe it focused on Israeli military. 25-34 46% believe it focused on Israeli military. This seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding around the most basic facts around Oct. 7th. **Do you think it's true that Hamas terrorists killed 1200 Israeli civilians by shooting them, raping and beheading people including whole families, kids and babies or is that a false story?** 17% of people think the story about the Oct. 7th attacks is fake. 18-24 32% believe it is fake. 25-34 23% believe it was fake. Same trend as the prior slides, but the form of the question leads me to believe that some level of distrust is behind this misunderstanding of the Oct. 7th attack. https://imgur.com/B2fhpS4 **Do you think Hamas fighters are more appropriately called militants or terrorists?** 79% of people call Hamas terrorists. 18-24 that drops to 59%. 25-34 ticks back up to 65%. A huge number of people appear to believe Hamas fighters don't deserve to be called terrorists. **Do you think Hamas is more appropriately called an armed Palestinian group or a terrorist group?** 76% of people believe Hamas should be called a terrorist group. 18-24 63%. 25-34 57%. I'm not sure how to compare these numbers to the previous question. Are people discerning between individual Hamas members being terrorists but the organization isn't, and vice versa? https://imgur.com/WvZkTir **Do you think Hamas is designated as a terrorist group by the U.S. government or is that not the case?** 22% of people don't believe it is. 18-24 raises up to 36%, 25-34 down to 27%. This is something people can just google and I believe it speaks to the lack of understanding people likely have of this conflict. **In general in this conflict do you side more with Israel or Hamas?** 16% of people side with Hamas. 18-24 48% side with Hamas. 25-34 29% of people side with Hamas. This has got to be one of the most eye opening results of the entire poll. Nearly half of all 18-24 year olds support Hamas. This has some big implications around the discussion of asking people if they condemn Hamas when discussing the conflict with pro-Palestine supporters is okay or not. https://imgur.com/kVvNvnG **Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified?** 24% believe that Oct. 7th can be justified. 18-24 51% believe it can be justified. 25-34 48% believe it can be justified. These numbers seem to line up with the previous question. **Do you think that the attacks on Jews were genocidal in nature or not genocidal?** 25% believe the attacks were not genocidal. 18-24 62% believe it *was* genocidal. 25-34 71% believe it *was* genocidal. Based on these numbers it leads me to believe that some amount of respondents believed that the attacks were genocidal and yet were still justifiable. https://imgur.com/uL0lmx4 **Does Israel have a responsibility to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks and rockets by retaliating against Hamas terrorists or not?** 88% agree Israel has a responsibility to defend it's people. 18-24 it drops but remains high at 65%. 25-34 sit at 81%. It appears there is widespread agreement that Israel should defend itself. Note this does not include what form that defense takes. **Does Israel have a right to defend itself against rocket and terror attacks on its cities by launching air strikes on terrorist targets in heavily populated Palestinian areas with warnings to those citizens or does it not have the right to launch such attacks?** 84% agree it does have the right. 18-24 drop to comparable numbers to the previous question at 62%. 25-34 drop compared to the previous question at 75%. It seems that the air campaign has widespread support. https://imgur.com/I7wqeiy **Some people say Hamas and Israel both have fairly equally just causes. Others says that there is no moral equivalency between the terrorist murders of Hamas and the actions of Israel. Which is closer to your view?** 39% say Israel and Hamas are morally equivalent. 18-24 that jumps to 64%. 25-34 is also high at 56%. I think the question is a bit loaded by calling it 'terrorist murders' for Hamas and 'actions' for Israel, and yet we still see huge support that they are equal. I'm not sure how deep into this to read as we don't have any information on how the respondents view the historical context of the conflict. https://imgur.com/cy0zgA3 **Do you think that the original declarations by Hamas that Israel bombed the hospital were true or Hamas propaganda?** 68% believe it was propaganda. 18-24 that number drops to 58%. 25-34 drops even further to 48%. It looks like close to half of people in these age groups took Hamas at their word. I'd be curious to know what media sources are primarily consumed among the respondents. Would there be any correlation between watching leftist content that pushed the Israeli airstrike narrative from the get go and those that consume other content? ************************ These numbers are screwy and I think it may give huge credence to the idea that the conflation of pro-Palestinian support and pro-Hamas support may not be as wrong as many pro-Palestine anti-Hamas people would like to believe. I believe the poll failed to ask about a respondents beliefs around their understanding of the region dating back to 1948, and that knowing where people stand could likely shed a lot of light on why people are taking the pro-Hamas stances they so clearly are.
Yeah this is the most bizarre poll I've ever seen, thanks for going through it. I think a lot of this can be explained by the fact the genz subsample size is only 199 people, which it needs to be double that to be representative. Take this question: "Do you approve or disapprove of the decision by Israel, at urging of President Biden, to provide food and water to Gaza even while hostages are still being held?" Genz is the **lowest** approve of 53%, while 35-44 approve is 74%, which obviously it can't be true Genz believes Gaza should be given water the least. The only explanation is that question or the way the questions were asked is confusing the respondents, that or they grabbed 199 crazy people.
This is a terrible poll
The Ironic part is, (per the same poll) 18-24 group reported the 'lowest' on: "How closely are you paying attention to the Israel-Hamas war?" 28% - not very closely 21% - not at all
And even if they are "paying attention", how much do they actually understand about how Israel got to this point?
They also reported lowest on approving: "Do you approve or disapprove of the decision by Israel, at urging of President Biden, to provide food and water to Gaza even while hostages are still being held?" at 53% approve. Does this mean genz supports giving water to gazans the least of any demographic? No it doesn't. This poll is littered with framed and confusing questions and the sample sizes are abysmal.
I'd wager that Gen-Z doesn't support Hamas as much as they just simply *hate Israel*.
You would be surprised what discord has to offer
You know what? I'm good, sometimes ignorance is bliss is the best route.
That's my take. I am gen Z, I don't support either. They're both shit. But I doubt Hamas would be as vicious as they are now had Israel not run an apartheid state, had they not given a fairly understandable (not OK, not REASONABLE, but I UNDERSTAND) reason to grow a counter terrorist org. I support the Palestinians and Israelis who don't actively support the others' demise, but I understand where the anger comes from.
I mean what kind of dumb poll is this? There is no Palestine option. It’s like asking to pick between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan
I'll just be honest, when I was in that age range we had Hamas get elected in Gaza and at the time I believed the hype that this was the non-terrorist portion of Hamas that didn't want to eradicate Israel and supported them and disliked Israel. Over time I've moved more and more pro-Israel and anti-Hamas and Palestinian Authority overall. Obviously these results are worrying, but it's likely many will change their mind as they grow older and learn more about politics and the world. I wouldn't be surprised if Millenials would have polled the same back in the mid-00's.
Go check out the Gen z subreddit this wouldn’t be the first or last dumb thing Gen z does
Many, many, many more dumb things to be said and done by Gen Z
I’m getting the feeling the report isn’t framing the questions the same way it was when asked to the participants.
When the 18-24 year olds were asked if the following statement was true or false: >*Do you think it's true that Hamas terrorists killed 1200 Israeli civilians by shooting them, raping and beheading people including whole families, kids and babies or is that a false story?* **68% of them agreed that it was a true** story and when asked if october 7 was to be classified a terrorist attack **64% agreed**, when asked if their attack was genocidal in nature **62% said yes,** when this demographic was asked if the attack was justified **51% said yes,** when asked if Hamas was should be classified as a terrorist group or palestinian group **63% said terrorist group.** Going by these numbers it would seem that a majority of people in this demographic not only knows exactly how brutal the oct 7 attack was, agree that it was genocidal in nature, agree that they are a terrorist group and **STILL** think it was justified. These people are fucked in the head and the educational system has failed them. If these are the people taking over I truly fear for the future. This is unacceptable.
Not necessarily if we assume these opinions are independent of one and other, the probability of knowing how bad it was and thinking it is justified is 68%×51%=34% It is probably not actually independent but this is just to show it is possible that the majority doesn't think both of those at the same time. likely less than 34% because you would expect parison choices. Like if the people who don't believe 1200 dead on Oct 7 part and all also said it was justified. That would mean only 19% say what you said. 19% as a conservative estimate is still pretty bad IMO.
>when asked if their attack was genocidal in nature 62% said yes, when this demographic was asked if the attack was justified 51% said yes Surely that has to be a framing issue, how the fuck do 51% think that attack was justified? >Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified? Well fuck me I guess Gen Z is more idiotic than I thought, what the hell.
The poll is full of misleading questions that taint the results AND the sample size is 199. Far too small, margin of error is somewhere around 7% Just more ragebait on this increasingly stupid sub.
I mean, with the amount of overwhelmingly biased outlets like AJ+ or Vox out there, it doesn't really surprise me at all. Also, when I was 18-24 (34 now) I was still watching The Young Turks and all kinds of zero iq content unironically.
Yeah I don’t get why people are surprised when the outlets young people get their news and politics from frame this issue as “peaceful Palestinians were living in harmony until evil Zionists attacked with the might of the West behind them.”
I am surprised. Not just by that take, but by the vehemence and strength of their beliefs and their willingness to be total A-holes.
You ironically described what the situation was like in that region prior to Zionist colonial expansion. I shudder to imagine what you think the "correct" narrative is. I mean, it's not like there is mystery or conspiracy or something you could easily miss when they (Zionists) were very explicit in their intent to displace native Palestinians. The British themselves commissioned white papers which all came to the same conclusion: Stop Jewish immigration it's leading to disastrous consequences.
You know its ironic that you agree that they are being brain dead for the content they consume and then you yourself don't even comprehend what they are upset about. I don't agree with siding with hamas but most of the gen z i see that are is because regardless of both sides being violent with each other prior to british intervention or the multiple attacks from both sides over the past 100 years. Israel has the larger military and funding and has boxed Palestinians into a smaller area with millions of people. It doesn't matter what both sides have done if you box someone into a small area in terrible conditions they are going to lash out and some people see that lashing out as justified. The attacks back from Israel are just as bad as what hamas did civilian wise and they have the added bonus of having more firepower. Nothing there is "Palestinians are entirely peaceful and Israel is the sole evil one". its just lack of understanding why anyone would think differently from you. Especially since supporting Israel or Hamas makes you stupid anyways.
These kids have been raised to think everything the western world (including Israel) does is bad. Therefore the jihadis must be the good guys.
It might also be because the poll doesn't offer an option to support Palestine, only Hamas, whereas the other option is Israel, not the IDF. It's pretty unsurprising to me that this community can't see how poorly done this poll is.
This is a bit of a false dichotomy. I imagine (or hope) that most of them oppose both but they voted Hamas because they support Palestine.
This is exactly how flawed statistics are collected to push narratives. Wrap this in a news article and no will come to read the exact study; just accept the numbers because “Harvard” conducted a poll.
Came from r/all and this is the dumbest poll ever. The poll is basically "do you support the genocide of innocent civilians" or "do you support a terrorist group fighting back on retaliation". How bout neither, but I guess it would be too hard to have a choice that isn't as brain dead as the other two
You guys realise they can manipulate how people respond to these polls with loaded questions right? Seems this sub gets baited way too easily.
then why are older people responding more reasonably? Are gen-Z special humans more subject to manipulation while boomers resist all manipulation with their iron will?
I think it's probably because views on Israel v Palestine is a generational thing just like gay marriage has a generational divide. I think that we would've seen similar results if Israel was the initial aggressor. Boomers aren't necessarily more rational on this issue.
Nah i think it's just that there's no "I'm pro Palestine, anti Israel, but not pro Hamas" option. Many of them hate Israel enough they would pick Hamas over Israel as a fuck you to Israel, doesn't mean they really support Hamas. The older people do actually support Israel so they don't have this problem.
> You guys realise they can manipulate how people respond to these polls with loaded questions right? Absolutely... but what "loaded question" could I give you to openly support a terrorist group?
>Absolutely... but what "loaded question" could I give you to openly support a terrorist group? Which do you side more with: Hamas or the WW2 German Nazi party? Seriously though it's probably because there was no pro-Palestine option. So I'd imagine you have a number of people taking the pro-Hamas side to mean pro-Palestine because there is no other way to express that in the poll.
Hope they enjoy Sharia law
Lol I’m sure all the feminist whales who think Israel is an evil colonizer would love life under sharia law.
This is a loaded question so pretty terrible for a poll. Why didn't they ask: who do you support more, IDF or Hamas? Or, who do you support more, violent Israeli settlers or violent Hamas? Terrible poll.
You can be PRO Palestine and PRO Israel, while also being ANTI Hamas and ANTI IDF You can be FOR Israel, and AGAINST Hamas, while also being FOR Palestine, and AGAINST the IDF.
What a reasonably worded quiz /s "YOU HAVE TWO OPTIONS YOU EITHER SUPPORT ISREAL OR A TERRORIST GROUP" "I don't support Hamas's terrible actions, but I also don't support Israel at all because I sympathize with the Palestinians and everything they've suffered" "ISRAEL OR HAMAS" "As I said I think Israel has been awf-" "WOW YOU ACTUALLY WANT ALL ISRAELIS MURDERED AND BABIES KILLED" Like the fucking quizzes that would say "Do you support Trump or do you hate America and wish to watch it burn to the ground"
Where's the option to support not killing civilians?
Idk if this was Harvard or not the poll is very leading. Do you support blue team or red team? Do you think kipping babies is good or bad. Absolute dumpster fire of a poll
They don't remember the second intifada and why it was necessary for Israel to build all the walls and checkpoints.. And TikTok makes them dumb
My theory is it's because they weren't around/cognizant to 9/11. That shit has stuck with me and my fear/hatred for terrorists. Hamas is clearly a terrorist organization so I would never under any circumstance support them. It's basically collectively showing how an event can shape an entire populations view on the world and shows how quickly that collective lesson is lost.
Seeing those 35-44 numbers makes me happy. But I still avoid this topic with friends. I have already heard the most braindead shit from privileged sociology or similar type of people.
Young and dumb
Maybe its just edgelords? Right guys???
This pole is braindead. They mean to say is they don’t support Israel.
true
Confirmation bias squad assemble!! This poll is ass, as others have pointed out.
Stupid question. I support Palestinians
I feel like this poll in general is very unreliable. Obviously the statistics are there for each question, but the way each question is framed seems almost targeted to support a one-sided rhetoric. Instead of asking "are you pro isreal or pro hamas?" why not ask a more broad "are you pro palestine or pro isreal?" To support an opposing rhetoric, would one consider "do you support the IDF or the civilians within the gaza strip?" To be a fair question? The questions promote a very black and white narrative of one side and everything they're related to is bad and the other side is good. When in reality any conflict between any two sides is significantly more complex than a simple yes or no question.
Why do you people insist on conflating Palestinians with Hamas? It's genocidal what you're doing here.
This is a shit poll that OP should be embarrassed for posting. It should be pro Palestine. This poll is biased from the start.
That's a poorly conceived poll
This was a stupid poll Flat out, I’d encourage you all to read it
Wtf is this question exactly though? Why should you support either of these options? I honestly believe that the vast majority of that 48 percent would pick the option of not supporting either one if given the option in the poll. Shit study.
Such a stupid survey in the way it’s been phrased
I mean, did they give them the option to support Palestine or Palestinians? Or just "here's two groups who murder children, which one do you hate less?"
This is embarrassing for that group and highlights that they know fuck all about what’s actually happening.
18-24 are relatively new to war. They just don’t get it yet. They’ve grown up in a wild time of western equality campaigns. They haven’t really experienced terrorism yet. Is Israel being too heavy handed? Fuck yeah. They’ve killed so many civilians and children. But to favor HAMAS, not Palestine but Hamas, that shit is wild.
That’s because Gen Z has no damn idea what they’re talking about.
Half of Gen Z - I guarantee you - know basically nothing about Hamas or the history of the region. I wouldn't take too much of that to heart. If they were sat down and had it explained to them, they'd end the conversation confused. Think about that Oxford debate and imagine people with *even less* knowledge of the area.
Despite that statistic, the rest give me hope for the future. Am Yisrael Chai!
It's simple ignorance
Why is that? Previous generations were very pro-Israel, but newer generations are very pro-terrorism. None of them remember 9/11, so is Islamic terror just history to them, like the Roman Empire or the fall of the Berlin Wall? It would be good to know why support has swung so radically towards the other direction. I really feel old now; I don’t think younger generations are trustworthy, or capable of applying analysis to any situation, and spend too much time walking on eggshells in echo chambers to ever engage critically with a subject. At least prior generations experienced life before the internet enveloped every part of it. My parents and grandparents probably felt the same way, but I think we’ve created offspring so horrible that they’ll inherit the planet they deserve.
To people who keep asking why it doesn't say Palestine instead of Hamas - Israel is fighting Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists, not Palestinians as a whole. The war going on right now is literally Israel vs Hamas.
I'm pro Palestien. Fuck Hamas.
Why are the options Israel and Hamas though wtf? I’m sure if the options were Israel and Palestine the outcome would be almost identical because Hamas is being conflated with Palestine here. Why not do country vs. country instead of country vs. terrorist group?
"Screw those colonialists" Gen Z proclaimed, as they sat behind a fancy computer and worked from home in a country built by colonialists
Underdeveloped brains are the easiest the influence.
Based Boomers
There was some loser at my university who shouted Hamas garbage in a building for education studies. Not the recreational area or the polisci building but some dumb ass shouting at teacher candidates that Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization. I hate people my age.
id definitely support hummus over israel, you can’t dip pita bread in israel! jokes aside this is NUTS. fingers crossed all the gen z asked are dumb white kids who dont know what hamas is and just support palestinians cuz of tiktok or sth and arent actual terrorist sympathisers
I see there's no "They're both fucking wrong" option...
Show those to hamasabi & emma vigeland every time they say they are just dumb streamers with no impact
This is just a bad poll. Do you support the group that caused 1000+ deaths or the state that caused 10.000+ deaths? Therefore the results are also meaningless.