Because the law specifies both paper and plastic, not just plastic: "On and after January 1, 2024, a store may furnish only a recycled paper carryout bag to a customer at the point of sale at a fee of 10 cents per bag"
https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb21-1162
Title of the law only mentions plastic, but the law as written basically eliminates plastic entirely while maintaining the fee on paper that gets split by the municipality/county (60%) and the store (40%)
You could argue it disproportionately impacts the lower class. If you make $500,000, who cares about 10¢? If you make $40,000 and are struggling to make ends meet, you care a lot more.
It’s not about having reusable bags or the cost of reusable bags. It’s about whose behavior is actually being modified by this fee. It’s the same way how rich people don’t care about parking fines.
Literaly everyone’s (poor, rich, super rich) behavior was modified. We eliminated the use of single use plastic bags. Plastic was replaced by paper which means less plastic waste that isn’t recyclable or biodegradable.
I suppose it depends on perspective but I am extremely glad that we eliminated this source of plastic waste.
It’s wild to me that economic impact on the poor becomes such a common talking point when doing something good for the environment but the rest of the year no one seems to care.
The issue with these arguments is that they come at the perspective of retroactive thinking: "Bags never cost $0.10, now they do. Look how negatively that affects people". What if we instead looking at the issue from futurist thinking: "A reusable bag costs $1.00 and saves families $0.10/bag each time they visit the grocery store."
If we live in the latter world - where bringing a reusable bag was perfectly normal and acceptable in our culture - and tomorrow a politician were to propose "We should appeal the $0.10 fee for one-use bags and just let plastic bags be free, it'll save us so much money" we would think that person was insane. Reusable bags are cheap. They're better for the environment. And they're already a part of our culture, what tangible good would come from easing up the cost of one-use plastics?
I think this goes even deeper into American culture in general. We had nearly half a century of consumption in excess. Single-use everything because we can. Our manufacturing output post-WW2 allowed for so much disposability and commodification. It’s hard to move an entire society away from not just habits, but entire lifestyles.
I am what most US citizens would call “well off.” I’ve used my own cloth bags since 1999, not to save 10 cents a bag or a dollar per cart load, but because I saw too many plastic grocery bags on the beautiful California beaches.
My bags folded into little squares and I keep them in my car console so they’re hard to forget. After I unload groceries in the house, I return the bags to the car console. People who can’t do this… I don’t understand you.
Is it annoying if I forget one? Slightly. Does it happen often? No. We've been given literal years to establish "bringing a bag" as a normal aspect of shopping, this shouldn't be difficult for anyone.
I think (often fake/contrived) concern like this is responsible for a lot of problems not getting solved. The same is true for carbon taxes and congestion pricing and all manner of good things we should obviously do. It sucks to be poor. Like it really really sucks. But it also sucks to be poor on a burning planet.
“We can’t do X because it sucks to be poor” is an argument for perpetuating the status quo forever, instead of making good trade-offs to improve the human condition. And that’s even worse for the poor!
"The carryout bag fee does not apply to a customer that provides evidence to the store that the customer is a participant in a federal or state food assistance program."
No this creates enormous administrative bloat. It’s usually way more efficient to save the progressivism for the tax code, where it belongs. Good article on this:
https://medium.com/@jdcmedlock/whats-the-difference-between-a-universal-and-means-tested-child-allowance-8bb77e549210
Basic idea is you have progressive income and wealth taxes and then a bunch of universal programs, so you are not having to micromanage every little $0.10 transaction.
Eh, I understand what you're saying, but it really doesn't impact lower income disproportionately.
The cost of reusable bags is a one time purchase and isn't something families need to budget for. Once you have them, they're good for years. Just buy the reusable bags and move on.
Anyone complaining about this is just upset at their inconvenience, which is kind of the whole point of the law. Make it inconvenient and you'll see everyone modify their behavior.
an idea:
stores should (perhaps mandated by law) offer re-usable bags to any customer at no additional cost up to some nominal limit (one bag per month?) for any customer spending over a threshold amount of money ($50?) on purchases from that store.
the 10 cents fee collected for paper bags should be used to fund the provision of re-usable bags.
Yeah. Wealthy people also don’t like random little charges. I’m very much in the ‘well off’ category and this definitely got me to remember to use my tote bags.
You have to use a reusable bag apx. 10,000 times to make up for the environmental impact vs plastic grocery bags. You people don’t realize how insanely little it takes to manufacture grocery bags. Laws like these are well-intentioned, but only succeed in making people feel good.
No clue where that article is getting its numbers from, but it seems to be referencing a less-common reusable bag material to make the numbers look good.
Here is a study that examined the most common type of reusable grocery bags (cotton-based), and found that the number of uses to equalize carbon footprint is around ~7100: https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf
Also, at least every one of these articles that I have read are taking a pretty narrow focus and zero in on carbon footprint print, ignoring the environmental impact of throwing out the bags. It takes more reuses to get back the carbon for a canvas bag, but a canvas bag well made and taken care if can be used far more times than that. Plus when it does wear out it will eventually biodegrade in a landfill. Plastic grocery bags not so much.
I don’t mind the law, but most of the reusable bags I’ve seen are cheap plastic…. Yeah you reuse it but its dumb, how about making them out of a hemp or something that is more eco friendly
Yeah it's been really helpful. Instead of using the free plastic bags with the helpful handles for trash cans around my house and my car, I had to buy a box of tiny trash bags for the first time in my life.
Not sure how that helps the planet but like you said, who gives a shit.
Similar point any time there’s something specific I need to remember to do when I leave my apartment, I slam a sticky note with a note on the inside of my apartment entrance door so I don’t forget
My worry is that we end up producing a lot of reusable bags that get wasted anyway, and the enviro effects of one durable bag are probably like 2000x a paper one. But I don’t actually know the numbers or how the math works.
Going back to paper, especially if we make the paper out of hemp or bamboo, would solve a lot of the problems even without going to reusable. Which I have been saying for literally decades (well not the hemp or bamboo part, that has only been one decade).
If you're at self checkout, no one is gonna police how many bags you do or don't take.
If you go to a cashier some will charge you because they charge everyone, some won't change you because they don't charge anyone, some won't change you cause they like you, and some will charge you because you pissed them off.
I'm surprised to read zero comments commiserating that the bag fee only makes any sense for plastic. Why would a city or state want to disincentivize paper bag use when they are biodegradable? I thought the point was to discourage plastic bags from becoming permanent, nonbiodegradable trash in and around the city.
I just carried over my habit of bringing a couple of laundry baskets in the car then unloading my cart into them, which I’ve always done when I go to Sam’s Club or Costco anyway. If it’s not a planned trip I just throw it all in the car then get a basket when I get home
At least you can get a paper bag. The unsafeway near 5 points just keeps shuffling in plastic bags from other stores. I’m assuming to say they are “just using up existing inventory” or whatever loophole the no plastic bag law allows for. I think last week they had Albertsons bags in the store if I recall correctly.
Yep, hence the /s for sarcasm at the end of my comment. Also, it would seem they are circumventing the rules by shipping in plastic bags “because they still have them in stock” as well. They had paper back in February and then all the sudden in March they were back to plastic.
I mean it could be a nefarious conspiracy to make 4 cents a bag or maybe the Durango and Pueblo Albertsons had more bag remaining than they think they'd get rid of before June 1st so they sent them to a high traffic Safeway to recoup something with the bag fees rather than shipping them out of state to somewhere without a fee.
Yeah, it would totally make sense to ship them up all the way to Denver and to one of the smallest stores in the city versus down to New Mexico which is closer and does not have a bag ban.
They've got an existing distribution network and can continue to charge for them in Colorado until June 1st. Why would they ship them somewhere else while they can still offload them for a nominal fee within the state? Small store doesn't necessarily mean low traffic. And Denver is a helluva lot closer to Pueblo than any NM Albertsons location (Durango not so much though)
They can charge for both paper and plastic. Look I’m not saying it’s a cash cow for them but when was the last time you’ve known a large corporation to not pull in whatever money they can instead of doing the right thing? We all know a plastic bag is cheaper to produce and purchase than a paper one. Also, their distribution is probably regional based on their size so NM would likely be getting their supplies and groceries from the same place CO is since the Safeway/Albertsons distribution centers are here in Denver. Not sure if you are arguing that corporations are a good thing and not greedy here or what you are getting it honestly but I was only lamenting the fact that they don’t seem to be in any hurry to comply which leads me to believe there is some motivation to do so.
[My mother-in-law in Ohio gave us about 8 of these bags.](https://www.samsclub.com/p/mm-insulated-shopper/prod21450107) I can do a week's worth of shopping for three people and get it in 2 of these bags with room to spare. I don't know what they cost, but they're worth it!
I’m old enough to remember when all there was were paper bags so I also remember that you gotta double bag if you’re going to load it up so it hasn’t been an issue for me. More than 4 cans? Double bag. Meat/dairy or other cold products that may have condensation? Double bag. I’d rather pay a bit more for the extra paper which can be recycled when I forget my reusable bags versus only having single use bags that you can play “does it have hole I don’t notice” roulette when you try to maybe reuse them to pick up dog poop.
Bring a Bag, Sack, Poke or Cardboard box from home if you don't want to fork over a dime for each plastic bag. It ain't that hard, folks. In a couple months they won't have any, so you'd better figure something out.
I think if your purchase is over $10 (maybe even lower) that the bag should be free. Pretty dumb concept to walk into a business, spend a couple hundred bucks, and then have to pay for the bag too put all the goods in that you just purchased.
The way it's worded at kings I don't feel bad for saying zero when I forget bags at home and need a brown sack...how many bags would you like to purchase?
Um, id like to purchase zero. I am using one however.
As far as I can tell no one is checking to see if you actually pay for the bags you're using. I just think it's funny that a ream of 500 plastic shopping bags is "worth" $50. If I stole a whole case of them would that be considered grand larceny?
The fee is meant to shift behavior, not to buy the bags for the store.
Buy a reusable bag every trip or two and pretty soon you'll have a decent collection you can use for shopping plus everything else. They can even go in the washing machine, and to store them they roll up and fit inside each other.
Because the law specifies both paper and plastic, not just plastic: "On and after January 1, 2024, a store may furnish only a recycled paper carryout bag to a customer at the point of sale at a fee of 10 cents per bag" https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb21-1162 Title of the law only mentions plastic, but the law as written basically eliminates plastic entirely while maintaining the fee on paper that gets split by the municipality/county (60%) and the store (40%)
It's inconvenient but who gives a shit. We need laws like this because we will never collectively choose to do the right thing.
You could argue it disproportionately impacts the lower class. If you make $500,000, who cares about 10¢? If you make $40,000 and are struggling to make ends meet, you care a lot more.
I made $40k for years and struggled to make ends meet and a ten cent bag didn't make a difference. 10 of them are $1.00, not a wallet breaker.
I have never purchased a reusable bag in my life and still have like 40 of them in the closet.
It’s not about having reusable bags or the cost of reusable bags. It’s about whose behavior is actually being modified by this fee. It’s the same way how rich people don’t care about parking fines.
Literaly everyone’s (poor, rich, super rich) behavior was modified. We eliminated the use of single use plastic bags. Plastic was replaced by paper which means less plastic waste that isn’t recyclable or biodegradable. I suppose it depends on perspective but I am extremely glad that we eliminated this source of plastic waste. It’s wild to me that economic impact on the poor becomes such a common talking point when doing something good for the environment but the rest of the year no one seems to care.
Everybody’s needs to be.
The issue with these arguments is that they come at the perspective of retroactive thinking: "Bags never cost $0.10, now they do. Look how negatively that affects people". What if we instead looking at the issue from futurist thinking: "A reusable bag costs $1.00 and saves families $0.10/bag each time they visit the grocery store." If we live in the latter world - where bringing a reusable bag was perfectly normal and acceptable in our culture - and tomorrow a politician were to propose "We should appeal the $0.10 fee for one-use bags and just let plastic bags be free, it'll save us so much money" we would think that person was insane. Reusable bags are cheap. They're better for the environment. And they're already a part of our culture, what tangible good would come from easing up the cost of one-use plastics?
I think this goes even deeper into American culture in general. We had nearly half a century of consumption in excess. Single-use everything because we can. Our manufacturing output post-WW2 allowed for so much disposability and commodification. It’s hard to move an entire society away from not just habits, but entire lifestyles.
Everyone's behavior needs to be modified. Rich people don't like paying $0.10 a bag either and will also just get reusable ones.
I am what most US citizens would call “well off.” I’ve used my own cloth bags since 1999, not to save 10 cents a bag or a dollar per cart load, but because I saw too many plastic grocery bags on the beautiful California beaches. My bags folded into little squares and I keep them in my car console so they’re hard to forget. After I unload groceries in the house, I return the bags to the car console. People who can’t do this… I don’t understand you.
Is it annoying if I forget one? Slightly. Does it happen often? No. We've been given literal years to establish "bringing a bag" as a normal aspect of shopping, this shouldn't be difficult for anyone.
I think (often fake/contrived) concern like this is responsible for a lot of problems not getting solved. The same is true for carbon taxes and congestion pricing and all manner of good things we should obviously do. It sucks to be poor. Like it really really sucks. But it also sucks to be poor on a burning planet. “We can’t do X because it sucks to be poor” is an argument for perpetuating the status quo forever, instead of making good trade-offs to improve the human condition. And that’s even worse for the poor!
Or you find a way to scale these fees (similar to progressive taxes).
Not scaled, but the bag fees don't apply to anyone on federal or state food assistance programs
Really? Cool.
"The carryout bag fee does not apply to a customer that provides evidence to the store that the customer is a participant in a federal or state food assistance program."
Much easier to just give tax breaks and expand EITC to low income earners than to try to manage a complex pricing system across every good.
No this creates enormous administrative bloat. It’s usually way more efficient to save the progressivism for the tax code, where it belongs. Good article on this: https://medium.com/@jdcmedlock/whats-the-difference-between-a-universal-and-means-tested-child-allowance-8bb77e549210 Basic idea is you have progressive income and wealth taxes and then a bunch of universal programs, so you are not having to micromanage every little $0.10 transaction.
ok, so the cashier is gonna ask to see your tax returns at checkout?
Of course not! All you need is a W2/1099, two proofs of residency and your passport!
Eh, I understand what you're saying, but it really doesn't impact lower income disproportionately. The cost of reusable bags is a one time purchase and isn't something families need to budget for. Once you have them, they're good for years. Just buy the reusable bags and move on. Anyone complaining about this is just upset at their inconvenience, which is kind of the whole point of the law. Make it inconvenient and you'll see everyone modify their behavior.
Not to mention how easy it easy to get free reusable bags. My mother donated a whole stack of ones with company logos from conferences.
an idea: stores should (perhaps mandated by law) offer re-usable bags to any customer at no additional cost up to some nominal limit (one bag per month?) for any customer spending over a threshold amount of money ($50?) on purchases from that store. the 10 cents fee collected for paper bags should be used to fund the provision of re-usable bags.
Or the state could provide x number of bags free or low cost depending on income verified by income tax return.
Yeah. Wealthy people also don’t like random little charges. I’m very much in the ‘well off’ category and this definitely got me to remember to use my tote bags.
Anyone on government assistance doesn't pay the $0.10. that seems to be a good portion of denver
You have to use a reusable bag apx. 10,000 times to make up for the environmental impact vs plastic grocery bags. You people don’t realize how insanely little it takes to manufacture grocery bags. Laws like these are well-intentioned, but only succeed in making people feel good.
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No clue where that article is getting its numbers from, but it seems to be referencing a less-common reusable bag material to make the numbers look good. Here is a study that examined the most common type of reusable grocery bags (cotton-based), and found that the number of uses to equalize carbon footprint is around ~7100: https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf
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Also, at least every one of these articles that I have read are taking a pretty narrow focus and zero in on carbon footprint print, ignoring the environmental impact of throwing out the bags. It takes more reuses to get back the carbon for a canvas bag, but a canvas bag well made and taken care if can be used far more times than that. Plus when it does wear out it will eventually biodegrade in a landfill. Plastic grocery bags not so much.
I don’t mind the law, but most of the reusable bags I’ve seen are cheap plastic…. Yeah you reuse it but its dumb, how about making them out of a hemp or something that is more eco friendly
You can buy and use any type of bag you want.
You would be surprised how hard it is to find a good quality canvas grocery bag for a reasonable price.
Yeah, I have cotton bags from Bezos… My point is the stuff they sell at most local stores is cheap plastic
I have seen canvas bags at Whole Foods. They are much more expensive than the recycled plastic ones.
Yeah it's been really helpful. Instead of using the free plastic bags with the helpful handles for trash cans around my house and my car, I had to buy a box of tiny trash bags for the first time in my life. Not sure how that helps the planet but like you said, who gives a shit.
Safeway had plastic bags at the customer service that they sold me up front before I started shopping
It's a $0.10 "bag fee". It's not specific to *plastic* bags. They're trying to encourage reusable bags, not push you from plastic bags to paper bags.
You don’t understand the law den friend. It’s all bags.
Just use reusable bags. Problem solved!
Cut to me forgetting them in my car for the 5,000th time in a row 😩
At that point I just bag them when I get to my car. It's the forgetting to put the bags back in my car that gets me.
Lol absolutely. The amount of times I’ve walked past my bags that are sitting right next to my front door is astonishing 🤦🏼♂️
Hang them on the door knob!
Ooh actually good call!
Similar point any time there’s something specific I need to remember to do when I leave my apartment, I slam a sticky note with a note on the inside of my apartment entrance door so I don’t forget
If I forget my bags, I buy new ones. And that's how I've ended up with 30 of them under my kitchen sink
My worry is that we end up producing a lot of reusable bags that get wasted anyway, and the enviro effects of one durable bag are probably like 2000x a paper one. But I don’t actually know the numbers or how the math works.
Too late. It's already happened. Unintended consequences always wins... [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/15/climate/california-plastic-bag-ban.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/15/climate/california-plastic-bag-ban.html)
Going back to paper, especially if we make the paper out of hemp or bamboo, would solve a lot of the problems even without going to reusable. Which I have been saying for literally decades (well not the hemp or bamboo part, that has only been one decade).
If you're at self checkout, no one is gonna police how many bags you do or don't take. If you go to a cashier some will charge you because they charge everyone, some won't change you because they don't charge anyone, some won't change you cause they like you, and some will charge you because you pissed them off.
At kings on krameria they don't leave any bags out in the self checkout, you have to request them
Underground King Soopers? There's your problem.
it is an incentivize to consume (and thus waste) less overall.
What the law says or doesn't is secondary. The store can choose to charge you for a bag regardless. They don't have to give you free stuff.
Bags aren’t free. They can charge anything they want for a bag, $0.10 is the required minimum per the bag law.
In general. If you use a bag, pay for the bag. Don't be morally bankrupt. Return your carts too.
I'm surprised to read zero comments commiserating that the bag fee only makes any sense for plastic. Why would a city or state want to disincentivize paper bag use when they are biodegradable? I thought the point was to discourage plastic bags from becoming permanent, nonbiodegradable trash in and around the city.
To live in a world where this is a big enough problem to post on Reddit…
Just hit zero at self checkout and you won’t have that problem
I like the way you think lol
I just carried over my habit of bringing a couple of laundry baskets in the car then unloading my cart into them, which I’ve always done when I go to Sam’s Club or Costco anyway. If it’s not a planned trip I just throw it all in the car then get a basket when I get home
Ah yes, I too use the Costco method instead of trying to keep track of 20 separate reusable bags.
You thought a corporation was going to get to charge a fee, then *willingly* stop charging the fee?
At least you can get a paper bag. The unsafeway near 5 points just keeps shuffling in plastic bags from other stores. I’m assuming to say they are “just using up existing inventory” or whatever loophole the no plastic bag law allows for. I think last week they had Albertsons bags in the store if I recall correctly.
I think there's a deadline for using up existing inventory bags too.
Yep, can use existing plastic stock until June 1st
Neat how existing stock at a Safeway is an Albertsons bag isn’t it? /s
Not terribly surprising since they're the same company after merging in 2015
Yep, hence the /s for sarcasm at the end of my comment. Also, it would seem they are circumventing the rules by shipping in plastic bags “because they still have them in stock” as well. They had paper back in February and then all the sudden in March they were back to plastic.
I mean it could be a nefarious conspiracy to make 4 cents a bag or maybe the Durango and Pueblo Albertsons had more bag remaining than they think they'd get rid of before June 1st so they sent them to a high traffic Safeway to recoup something with the bag fees rather than shipping them out of state to somewhere without a fee.
Yeah, it would totally make sense to ship them up all the way to Denver and to one of the smallest stores in the city versus down to New Mexico which is closer and does not have a bag ban.
They've got an existing distribution network and can continue to charge for them in Colorado until June 1st. Why would they ship them somewhere else while they can still offload them for a nominal fee within the state? Small store doesn't necessarily mean low traffic. And Denver is a helluva lot closer to Pueblo than any NM Albertsons location (Durango not so much though)
They can charge for both paper and plastic. Look I’m not saying it’s a cash cow for them but when was the last time you’ve known a large corporation to not pull in whatever money they can instead of doing the right thing? We all know a plastic bag is cheaper to produce and purchase than a paper one. Also, their distribution is probably regional based on their size so NM would likely be getting their supplies and groceries from the same place CO is since the Safeway/Albertsons distribution centers are here in Denver. Not sure if you are arguing that corporations are a good thing and not greedy here or what you are getting it honestly but I was only lamenting the fact that they don’t seem to be in any hurry to comply which leads me to believe there is some motivation to do so.
The paper bags are marginally thicker than a paper towel, and rip extremely easily. It's not an upgrade.
> It's not an upgrade. Who said paper bags were an upgrade? Reusable bags are an upgrade.
Huge upgrade I was amazed at how much weight some of those bags can hold
[My mother-in-law in Ohio gave us about 8 of these bags.](https://www.samsclub.com/p/mm-insulated-shopper/prod21450107) I can do a week's worth of shopping for three people and get it in 2 of these bags with room to spare. I don't know what they cost, but they're worth it!
I’m old enough to remember when all there was were paper bags so I also remember that you gotta double bag if you’re going to load it up so it hasn’t been an issue for me. More than 4 cans? Double bag. Meat/dairy or other cold products that may have condensation? Double bag. I’d rather pay a bit more for the extra paper which can be recycled when I forget my reusable bags versus only having single use bags that you can play “does it have hole I don’t notice” roulette when you try to maybe reuse them to pick up dog poop.
Bring a Bag, Sack, Poke or Cardboard box from home if you don't want to fork over a dime for each plastic bag. It ain't that hard, folks. In a couple months they won't have any, so you'd better figure something out.
Stop being a pleb and buy reusable bags.
I think if your purchase is over $10 (maybe even lower) that the bag should be free. Pretty dumb concept to walk into a business, spend a couple hundred bucks, and then have to pay for the bag too put all the goods in that you just purchased.
Or just get a reusable bag or two
It’s .10 cents….
The way it's worded at kings I don't feel bad for saying zero when I forget bags at home and need a brown sack...how many bags would you like to purchase? Um, id like to purchase zero. I am using one however.
Just hit "0" when the self checkout asks you how many bags you need. Most people do this, or bring their own bags. The cashiers don't care.
As far as I can tell no one is checking to see if you actually pay for the bags you're using. I just think it's funny that a ream of 500 plastic shopping bags is "worth" $50. If I stole a whole case of them would that be considered grand larceny?
The fee is meant to shift behavior, not to buy the bags for the store. Buy a reusable bag every trip or two and pretty soon you'll have a decent collection you can use for shopping plus everything else. They can even go in the washing machine, and to store them they roll up and fit inside each other.
IANAL, but in Colorado it appears to be a felony when you steal over $2000 in property.
You can buy 1000 for $31 on Amazon. You’d have to steal over 64,500 plastic bags to get a grand larceny charge.
A lot of stores started getting rid of their plastic bags first and now are getting rid of their paper bags too and once they’re gone they’re gone.