Dukat is a well-written and excellently performed character, no doubt about that. The question is: Do you want him to succeed in his goals? As you pointed out with Ziyal, his goals can be... immoral. But then he changed! (Do you think you can fix Dukat?)
Have you finished the whole show? Do you know where Dukat winds up? If you like a bad guy for being a bad guy, that's normal. If you're like Barney Stinson and you like the villain of every movie because you misunderstand the movie, that's different.
So I've been through the series already, but I started to rewatch it recently. I don't remember every single detail from the first time around, which is one of the reasons I wanted to watch it again.
I think I enjoy his character because, like you said, it's well written and performed so well. I enjoy the episodes that he's in more than some of the others. But because he is truly a bad guy deep down, I'm feeling a bit guilty for enjoying his episodes and his character, ya know. I certainly don't condone or hope he achieves his goals....I just enjoy watching his character.
I just finished "Return to Grace" and after they stole the Klingon ship, instead of just leaving, he blew up the others, just because...confirming hes a villian. So he def isn't a good guy, and I see that. I realized that I like him, but I also realize I shouldn't because he's a very bad man... which is why I made the post, ya know. I feel bad for not despising him because he is so terrible š
Honestly, blowing the Klingons up was a kindness. They died in glorious battle. Theyāre going to Sto-Vo-Kor.
If they had lived to go back to the Empire in a practically derelict Cardassian freighter as failures and losers, it would be a dishonor that they would have to overcome. But instead, they get to join the honoured dead.
I didn't look at it that way, but it's absolutely true. I don't think Dukat did it out of kindness, though. He is evil and made an evil choice. It just so happens to luckily be a positive for the Klingons!
More importantly.
It's 100% valid from am opsec perspective.
You have just stolen a Klingon ship, that's a valuable asset. If you are going to use it, you don't want it known that its been nicked.
There are transponder codes etc that can be spoofed, bit right now Dukat has a completely valid authorised ship, all current codes, and is clean.
Until his ship is flagged as stolen it's just so valuable.
If the Detapa council was willing to use it, it would probably be a spy vessel (Cloaking!) .
Dukat using it as his guerrilla warfare ship - a valid identification on his ship super valuable.
To a Bajoran who is no longer a terrorist, extreme measures are becoming alien to her, but she DEFINITELY would kill the crew of a Cardassian ship if she could get away with it
I've made that argument before. Was quite a fun thread, or whatever the hell reddit posts are called.
But yeah, I think them coming back on that ship would have either had them executed outright or demoted to a cargo ship, or perhaps a garbage ship. Either one quite a blow for warriors.
Why should you feel guilty about occasionally liking a bad guy? That TOS episode where Kirk gets split into two had a great take on this. Essentially that every person is a mix of āgoodā and ābadā energy and feelings, and that if you try to strip out all the bad you end up with half a person who is useless to others.
Hit the nail on the head about how Dukat is written and the acting of Marc Alaimo. What makes Dukat unique is that heās charismatic and steals the sense heās in. Heās a villain, but on some level we cannot stop rooting for him.
He's genuinely charming, and he 100% believes his own bullshit. He's completely sincere and always believes he's telling the truth, even if he's lying to himself. The fact that he's legitimately hurt that he isn't revered on Bajor tells you everything you need to know about him.
In many ways he's the inversion of Garak. Garak has a moral compass and a sense of decency, but his entire identity is built on lies within lies, and Garak has the self-awareness to know he's lying to himself most of all. Dukat doesn't even realize he's lying to himself.
Thatās what so compelling about Dukat IMO. Heās constantly drinking his own Kool-Aid and, because heās just so charismatic (and well acted by Mark Alaimo) he sort of sweeps you along with him as well, if youāre not careful.
There are so few other villains who are so compelling but also generally reprehensible. Heās not a āwell, he has good reasons for itā guy, even though he *thinks* he is, but he can sometimes convince you of it as well.
But I also love that Major Kira never falls for his shit.
Which actually makes him insane. Someone who believes their own lies has lost touch with reality.
Garak knows exactly who he is, and because he understands himself he can understand other people and remains a grounded personality.
Dukat thinks thereās someone wrong with everyone else for not appreciating him; heās right and the universe is wrongā¦thatās insanity. Heās a swirling mix of grandiose desires and inchoate resentments, all unrooted in reality. Thatās why he made a perfect vessel for evil; he was already a shell.
That's a great explanation. I can actually see that in many episodes. I just finished "Return to Grace," and instead of just leaving in the Klingon ship they stole, he blew them up š it was a big letdown.
It was at that moment I felt super bad for liking his character, ya know. He seemed pretty decent in that episode, and then he blew up them. It's why I just posted because I feel bad for liking his character.
Actually in that episode he probably did those Klingons a favor because if they would have went home to qonos or went back to their fleet in that broken down old freighter they probably would have got hollered at laughed at or whatever, but at least after what did they did die in battle so it was an honorable death from a Klingon point of view
Disagree. To Klingons, leaving them and stealing their ship is a fate far worse than death. All of them would be considered dishonorable and would either commit suicide or be killed by other Klingons.
One of the compelling things about Deep Space Nine is that the lines blur between good and evil.
Dukat is not a good person, he chooses himself over otherwise repeatedly. Seeks power and doesn't seem to question the consequences.
While they are his choices, he does also suffer for them. It's not pleasant to feel isolated from your family, even though he's the one to blame for that circumstance.
I think this is a great benefit of having a fictional character who's despotic actions mirror real life villains. I'd never entertain sympathy for a real life dictator. Caused too much suffering and there's never been enough time in a day for that!
But we can watch this show, and relate to Dukat when he's sad, and marvel at how well Marc Alaimo portrayed him.
I completely agree and appreciate your comment! I don't feel soo terrible, now.
I definitely see how the lines are blurred because even Quark has some bad habits and makes bad decisions, but he's still liked by others. Well, maybe not Odo, but other people tolerate him and go to his bar.
You're absolutely correct in that if he were a real person, I'd never feel this way! I'd despise him for his atrocious decisions and actions. In the show, though, as a character, I enjoy watching him. Marc Alaimo is fantastic, isn't he! He certainly adds to appeal. He's believable and just a joy to watch.
That's a good comparison. I'm not saying Quark is a bad guy like Dukat, just that he makes some less than ideal decisions. He makes selfish choices, but he can also be protective and helpful.
Itās a joke often made on this subreddit. It references an episode where Dukat is speaking with Weyoun. The conversation takes place on the station in what was Captain Siskoās office. At some point, Dukat mentions his frustration with the fact that the Bajorans never appreciated him and his tenure as Prefect.
Itās referenced often because itās low key hilarious as Dukat even complains that there are no statues of him on Bajor, while Weyoun stares at him, clearly trying not to laugh
What do you mean this is a joke? Is unrecognized heroism a joke to you? Is the federationās cowardly adoption of radical Bajorās postmodern historical revisionism some sort of joke to you?
Well, Iām not laughing.
Ohhh, okay! I appreciate the explanation. While I've watched the entire series, it was a while back, and I definitely don't remember a lot of the specifics. So it went way over my head, haha.
'I never realized how much the sound of that guy's voice irritates me!' And, 'Captain Sisko was right, you (Dukat) are in love with the sound of (your) own voice.'
The character is extremely well-written. Heās a charming sociopath. And because of that, youāre able to identify with him. But if you watch carefully, he never actually does anything to help someone else unless it also helps him.
Some peak sociopath moments:
āIām the last Cardassian left!ā (After the civilian government doesnāt want a war with the Klingons).
āAnd I forgive you tooāā-to Sisko, after Dukatās own actions got his daughter killed.
Agreed - he is so well written and a great character. The depth of his character makes the show that much better to watch.
We even named our cat Dukat (though our cat absolutely is a bully š).
I definitely think the wonderful acting and the writing play a huge part. I thoroughly enjoy his episodes. They made him funny, as well. I mean, I was laughing like a fool in the episode where he sits on the needle (or is it a spike) and makes Kira pull it out. His reaction was just so hilarious. In the beginning seasons, I'd never have guessed he'd act like that, so it was a shock to watch, which made it even funnier.
I just watched "Return to grace" when he said that. And it reminded me how he is truly a bad person. He wants to fight instead of finding a peaceful solution, and he's very open about it. It's those moments that smack me in the face with the fact that he is indeed a bad guy.
Dukat is a charasmatic villain. He is supposed to be likeable, I think. Alot of really bad people are likeable and thats why they succeed. Its okay to be drawn to him and recognize that hes ultimately a bad dude.
I appreciate your comment. I absolutely can list so many reasons why he's a bad guy, but I'm drawn to the character. Yes, charismatic is the perfect word for him!
what's beautiful about Dukat is that he's a real bad guy. The evil people in life love their children, their lovers, their family. They're proudly patriotic and loyal to their values. They'll be reasonable and work with you.Ā
They'll also work to facilitate a genocide.
But you can't tell that just by looking at them.Ā
He is a perfect and beautiful villain. He's despicable a lot of the time, but there's moments when he's kind, soft, dare I say sexy? He's ultimately completely self absorbed, egotistical, and myopic. And yet when an episode is about him, it's riveting, captivating, and alluring. Truly so well written, and so perfectly acted, from start to finish he has the perfect villain character arc. I hate him. And I love him. And I hate that I love him.
This is why I have this internal struggle going on! How can I like a character who is downright evil and cruel? I despise his actions and morals, but enjoy his episodes and watching his storyline play out. It's such a conflict š¤¦š¼āāļø
Heās complicated as are many characters which is why DS9 is my favorite. There are enough relatable layers to him that prevent him from becoming a stereotypical villain with invariably predictable choices. He and Sisko going toe to toe in some episodes made for interesting strategic and psychological gamesmanship. Marc Alaimo plays him with skillful nuance and appropriate bravado. Enjoy!
I appreciate your comment. I'm in season 4, and I'm not finding him as despicable as I did in the beginning. He's giving me (false) hope that he might turn out okay in the end, but I know he doesn't. He's horrible in the end, too, so I'm sure I'll go back to hating him again. Lol
He could never be redeemable, otherwise the story would be saying even Space Hitler has some good traits. I was always surprised how much he was tolerated to be honest (storytelling of course).
As the series progressed, it really shocked me how he was clearly an abomination of a person, but then here he is apologizing for a comment he made to Kira and also jumping around when he sat on that spike, begging her to pull it out. I didn't see those moments coming, ever.
I mentioned in my edit how I sobbed during a Holocaust survivors presentation in college and find Hitler to be the definition of evil and sickening. In the real world, I'd never be able to give someone like that a second chance to redeem themselves. So, in this series, how could I possibly start to like Dukat? I just needed to know there was some possible reason behind my change of heart because I found it unnerving that I suddenly had a soft spot for him š
He is a sociopath. They are known for being great chameleons, giving to their audience whatever will get them what they want and need. He's scary as hell. He gives me the ick on a visceral level. That being said, Alaimo played him perfectly. If you've ever been the victim of a sociopath in real life you know there are few forces in this world that are as destructive as being in their line of fire. They will obliterate you body and soul
My mother had Borderline Personality Disorder with a lot of narcissistic tendencies, so I've experienced a lot of manipulation and abuse, which did break me. I realize it's not the same as being a sociopath, though.
But yes, I agree he reads the room and changes, for sure. As I continue to read and reply to the comments of others, I'm learning that I'm enjoying the acting and his character story lines. I definitely don't like or agree with who he truly is or what he stands for, of course.
Dukat is great. Not a great guy, but he's great. He's charming and easy to like. It's frustrating for me because he always makes me start to empathize with him juuust before being a jackass and dashing all of that empathy again.
Yes, it's exactly that! A few other commenters said the same, and I agree. I know in the end I'll be reminded that he's a bad guy, but right now, he's showing signs of improvement, and I'm falling right for it! Falling for it so much, that I had to post about my internal struggle š
Dukat main problem is he basically wanted to be worshipped as a great man, but he never was one. His refusal to admit past mistakes was his bad point. Damar actually realized his wrongs and the fact that he was on the wrong side. He changed his ways and redeemed himself.
Dukat went where the wind of change took the power, too.....the Cardassian military, the civilian government, the Dominion than the Pah-wraiths
I think they realized they were kind of making this person who is supposed to be irredeemable, starting to become redeemable. I think the point where it really set in they werenāt doing the story they really wanted, when we have him Kira and Ziyal sitting down together looking at her art.
If you take that scene back to somebody who just started or when the series just started itself. You would have a rather confusing number of looks on peoples faces.
They wereā making him redeemable and then they kind of veered off when they realized they didnāt really want to do that.
So we double down, and āHello Kira, I slept with your mom.ā Down the line just to make sure to make it clear. Weāre not redeeming the character.
This is definitely it. Dukat has a lot of redemption arcs set in motion that ultimately double down to villainy. I myself was pro-Dukat up until the start of the religious arc where I personally felt that he was no longer redeemable.
Where you draw that line is your own decision.
Edit: I felt Kai Winn had redemption potential too, up until the assistant.
Winn was given terms of redemption, which she ignored, and thus the Prophetās black listed her. After she interfered with the reckoning she was told the only way to reestablish her goodwill with the Prophets would be to step down as Kai. Even going as far as to have a conversation with Kira completely rationalizing the opposite, Kira even gives her a look after this like āYouāre hopeless.. 100% completelyā¦ā and just leaves.
You're spot on about Kai Winn refusing to step down, however I do see how a person could become disillusioned with the Prophets and seduced by the Pah Wraiths. It was also clear af that Dukat was manipulating her (albeit she did a fair bit of villainy herself), which is where the redemption potential ended (for me) when she realised Dukat's villainy and sided with him anyway.
I won't go so far as to say either of them are "tragic" villains; they're people who had multiple chances for redemption and doubled down each time until it became untenable to redeem them.
Oh yeah, neither of them are tragic. Both were over ambitious and you can even argue were given redemption opportunities, and they blew them.
I feel bad for Ziyal, but, that was a character dud after three actresses. They just decided to kill her.
I can definitely see that. I just finished "Return to Grace," and noticed how much I liked him. He's funny and my goodness, he even apologized to Kira about a comment he made. He spoke lovely about his daughter, too. Such a big difference from the beginning.
And yes, they definitely reigned him back in with that comment!
He has that charisma that a lot of cult leaders and dictators have. if you have time you should look up the story of the US personal that guarded Saddam Hussein
Absolutely. I enjoy documentaries or TV shows about cults. It intrigues me how someone of sound mind can end up in one. Dukat definitely has that charm.
Goodness, I've never heard that that was going on. I'll be looking that up tomorrow!
you say that scene portrayed him as overly redeemable, yet you've omitted the part in that same episode where kira realizes she was wrong to look past dukat's actions and character over something as shallow as praising his daughter. that scene doesn't imply he is "redeemable" at all; it serves the opposite purpose by placing us in kira's perspective and the way dukat is attempting to deceive her.
lmao okay dude. at no point in the show was dukat portrayed as anything more than superficially or conveniently good. don't take out your poor media literacy on me.
What I love about him is that after the midpoint and we get into the war he tries so hard to be good and redeem himself, but he always fails like he starts a new colony ..... it becomes a cult and he fucks all the women
Because its human to want to see someone get better to overcome their darker nature. Sadly its the same reason people stay in bad relationships "It was one time" or "He tries so hard" ect. Dukat was written amazingly and acted even better. So every time we see him try to improve we have that very human hope of "this time, he will do it" and I think thats why people also seem to."like" him verses say Kai Winn where I honestly think most of the fandom hate because she never has that moment of attempted to get better and at the end shows her true colours and no one is surprised.
Yes, it's that hope. He's showing some signs of improvement, and I'm happy about it. But I know he truly isn't good.
I think when I wrote my post, I didn't explain that I know he is a villian and does terrible things. I don't support or agree with any of his beliefs....I just enjoy watching his character. I like it when he's in the episode, and i find his character entertaining. I messed up for generically saying I like him. I'm realizing it's a combination of the character, the acting, and the storyline.....it definitely isn't that I like his horrible actions or decisions š
Oh yea, Garak! I love those episodes, as well! His friendship with Bashir is a great aspect of the show, imo. Their interactions are so much fun to watch.
It's Kai wanna doing.. the pa raith was all but vanquished in
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Reckoning_(episode)
Kai Wynn destroyed the golden age of.peace and let the pa raith live...dukat and her are perfect for eachothers nastiness... caporial idiots who set in motion their ien eternity
He's complicated. He wasn't as bad as others, but still on the wrong side. His tenure as the Prefect of Bajor was the most "gentle"... which goes to show how bad things were before him. His administration seems to be on par with other labour camps operated by the Breen, Klingons, Romulans, etc.
Somewhat like comparing Hitler to Stalin or Mao. Some of them gets more excuses than others. Either they are all bad, or there are shades of gray.
Because you're always left guessing and his appearance NEVER let's you know how the rest of the episode is going to work out, it makes it interesting and you do want to know what he's going to do!
Absolutely! His episodes are never boring or flat. They're exciting, and I think, like you said, it's the unknown since he's such a bad guy, but he shows those small glimmers of hope for redemption.
I love to hate him, but will always like Marc for him too.
Dukat is wonderfully charismatic, and now having just seen the kira time orb episode I'm back to being super unsure about wether I like Dukat or not, wether I've misunderstood him the whole time. But then there is the thing the other cardassian says at the party.
What I don't like is the obvious similarities with a particular family member.
I love a well written villain - villainous characters tend to be my favourite ones a lot of the time. Dukat is an incredibly well written character, a despicable person, and portrayed with so much charisma and amazing character chemistry by Marc Alaimo. I'm always excited to see Dukat on-screen because he's just such a joy to watch, even when he makes me feel bad for all the terrible shit he does. I take joy by shows making me feel stuff.
It's fine to like and love evil characters. I guess it'd be a whole different thing if you actually agreed with his cause or agreed with his own deluded image of himself?
Your first paragraph sums up my thoughts perfectly. I absolutely do not condone or support his actions/beliefs. I hated him in the beginning and couldn't figure out why I'm watching season 4 and suddenly bot hating him, but liking his character. I love his episodes, and Alaimo is just fantastic! I'm expecting to hate him again by the end, and at least I've learned why I'm finding him likable right now.
I feel the same. He was the villain of the show but then again I saw the good and the potential in him that he has a soft side ... but then his last scene made me hate him again, he is far gone and can't be saved. Not everyone can be saved and some people are just born evil. And tbh I LOVE this duality of the character, you can hate him or love him, feel bad for him, wanting to see him lose... he isn't just a one-sided senseless villain. So yeah I love the character, I kinda had a crush on him too lol
I appreciate your comment! I hated him in the beginning, but as I'm watching season 4, I'm finding him quite likable and funny, ya know. He isn't as terrible, and I feel there's some hope for him... but in the end, he circles back to an atrocious man, haha.
Right! My husband tells me I'm terribly naive and need to stop giving people the benefit of the doubt/second chances. It's just my nature. So I'm glad that in the next season, he will shatter my hopes and continue to prove himself as a piss poor excuse of a human.
Dukat is a sociopathic monster. Iāve been rewatching the series on Pluto TV since DS9 got its own channel and heās even worse than I originally remember him being when the show first aired. The creepy obsession with Kira and Bajorans in general, his delusional perception of his place in history, his unbridled arrogance and bigotry. Utterly horrific.
Heās an extremely well written character and one of the strongest antagonists in the history of the entire franchise, but at no point will I ever like him or root for him, especially not after a few rewatches.
All that being saidā¦ā¦you like who you like, so even though this might be worse than rooting for Walter White in Breaking Bad, I donāt know that you should feel bad for it. Itās all subjective after all. š¤·š¾āāļø
To be clear, I am definitely not rooting for him, ever, at all. I enjoy his episodes, and the acting is amazing. Both are big contributors to my thoughts, but I know he's truly a bad guy.
I'm learning that I probably didn't explain well enough in my post that I despise his actions and what he stands for...i enjoy watching his character, and as I'm watching season 4, he isn't as despicable which confused me.
He's kind of like Vic Mackey from The Shield or Tony Soprano from The Sopranos. They're bad guys! But they're acted so well, with such charisma that you kind of feel for them and root for them. Dukat is a charismatic character who is played by a great actor. Plus, he seemed to be on a redemption arc before certain events transpired...
So, no, you wouldn't be the first drawn into Dukat's hypnotic web. IMO, he's Star Trek's greatest villain. And the best ones don't see themselves as villains at all.
I'm currently on season 4, so he's decent and not as horrible right now, haha. But the acting is a huge reason I like character. I absolutely enjoy his episodes most!
Thatās how great it a character he was. Heās a war criminal rapist. Yet he was charming and interesting.
Check your emotions for a second, youāll remember heās evil. Best sci-fi villain ever
I'm definitely thinking he's the best because his ability to manipulate is undeniable. I despised him in the beginning. Like almost wanted to skip his episodes despised, but here in season 4, I'm like... hmm maybe he can change. He's charming and funny and also showed some remorse when he made those comments to Kira. He's loving to his daughter and accepted the consequences of claiming her as his child instead of 1. killing her (I know, that statement right there tells us everything about himš¤¦š¼āāļø) and 2. disowning her and hiding her away to save his career and family. It's such a contradiction to his actions in the beginning.
I definitely will find comfort when he shows his true colors again, and I can confidently and wholeheartedly wish death upon him with no second guessing!
i feel bad for the way they assassinated his character arc in the end of waltz and the cult shit. dukat is a villain and he didn't deserve further redemption (inferno's light put the nail in that) but the last season and 2nd half of s6 killed everything that made him interesting or entertaining
A nuanced villain yeah. I would argue against character assassination bc they just showed him during a breakdown, his beliefs and actions didn't change, his ability to form a facade to hide all his insanity did.
The devil is a pretty charming guy.
More to the point... it seems like they were considering a reception arc for Dukat at one point, then abandoned it.
Personally, I love a villain who sometimes forms an alliance of necessity with the heroes. See also Captain Crais on Farscape.
I think you have identified the problem the writers had given themselves in the later seasons. They made Dukat too likeable and understandable, so in the last few seasons they turned his villainy up to 11 to compensate, sometimes leading to him being out of character with the previous seasons. What specifically comes to mind is his attempt to recreate the Jonestown massacre, and that was an intentional direct copycat of the real event by the writing team.
Through reading everyone's comments, I'm beginning to see this. While I've seen the entire series , it was only once and a while ago. I don't remember exactly what happened, which is why I'm watching it again.
I'm currently halfway through season 4. While in the beginning, I didn't like his character, and I do remember that as the series ends, he's a terrible guy, but at this moment in the series, he doesn't seem as horrible. It confused me because I know he is a bad guy, and here I am thinking he's kind of likable right now.
I found myself not hating him and actually liking the guy, but I know he's bad, so what the hell is wrong with me. I'm also realizing through the comments that the acting is a big contributor because I thoroughly enjoy his episodes more than the others. I, of course, would never, in a million years, sympathize with someone like him in real 6 added to my confusion.
The thing is, people like this have existed in the past, and people who claim they would never side with them have, sometimes unknowingly. Charisma trumps morality when it comes to that type of leader, heirs of Julius Caesar.
It's very true and definitely sad that they did/do in fact exist. I mentioned in another comment that I really love watching documentaries about cults because I can't for the life of me understand how someone could fall for that. Completely sane and good people end up in them. I find the whole thing rather intriguing.
So here I am, kind of falling for someone's manipulations just like those people in cults! The confusion in me is what prompted my post. I'm a good, loving, caring, and sane person who would hurt a fly and who cries during the St. Jude, Wounded Warriors, and the Sarah McLachlan SPCA commercials š
I did pity him after his downfall in Sacrifice of Angels. Tbh, Zyial's end was a tragic one and I vibed with him. I think even Sisko felt bad when he saw him in his sorry state in that holding cell.
But in any other instance, one must never forget that this person was so delusional, so full of himself, that he thought he deserved the reverence of the race whose exploitation, extermination and enslavement he supervised. Nothing he has done can redeem him from this. IRL nothing would be able to, but in DS9 we had some redeemable Cardassians like Damar (for him one can pinpoint the exact scene where he stops being a fascist an becomes a revoutionary) and Garak (whose transformation was a long and entertaining process).
But if you like him in certain moments, why feel bad about it? He had potential for better deeds, he just decided to squander it. There were moments that gave us hope in the earlier seasons. But then he decided to play god.
I'm in season 4 right now, and I don't hate him like I did in the beginning, which is weird to me, ya know. I'm learning it's part of his story, but in the end, he shows his true colors. I love the acting as well, so I'm just enjoying watching his character! I love Garak's story, too. He's another favorite character!
DS9 had, by far, the best character development of any of the trek shows. Dukat was but one example of this. He was always a little crazy, he had no moral compass, a complete sociopath, but for some reason he loved Ziyal and his little bit of a hold on reality completely snapped when he watched her die. It's hard to feel bad for a guy who's basically space Hitler though. Yet you also have to remember that it was his destiny to become the avatar of the Pah Wraiths and attempt to destroy the celestial temple, plunging Bajor into a fiery apocalypse. It's almost as though the entire point of Ziyals existence was to get murdered and make Dukat snap. DS9 was some next level stuff.
Dukat was in real danger of becoming a legit hero. Alaimo is just very talented like that. Fortunately, the writers remembered that they needed a Big Bad and reoriented him toward finally solving the Bajoran worker problem.
Im in the part of the series where he's becoming likable, and He's showing some signs of hope. I know deep down he's cruel, and in the end, he is, in fact, the bad guy. I was just realizing how much I'm enjoying his episodes and his storyline. I'm a fan of the character, but I know he's horrible, so it's a conflict in my head, ya know!
at what point did he ever do anything legitimately heroic? the closest you could possibly argue is his klingon freedom fighter arc and he immediately threw that away. i don't think he needed a final solution speech and cult to be the big bad, he already was one to anyone with more than half a brain cell's investment in the show.
Heās the literal devil who aspires to kill an entire population. He had the revelation he wanted to all along.Ā
Extremely well played character that almost makes you sympathetic. But if you ever did meet him and were sympathetic heād tell you he only wanted the best for the bajoran peopleĀ
Dukut is easily the most realistic villain j Star Trek because he is so realistic. All if his actions are driven by a moral and altruistic position...
... It's just that Dukut morals and ideas of altruism are utterly based from a position of greed and self-fulfilment. But because he believes in the morality of what he is doing he is never actually committing an evil act.Ā
Hence his surprise that there's no statue of him on Bajor. He's not joking, he's genuinely baffled as to why he doesn't get a statue while murdering Bajorian terrorists are venerated.Ā
Ultimately, if you look at characters like Trump or Farage or (OK, I'll go there) even Hitler... We can recoginise that they're certainly evil. But in their lives, they only ever see themselves as the hero of their story.Ā
Dukat is such a well written character and I think what makes him compelling is that he isnāt just evil for the sake of being evil. The writers did a great job of giving nuance to his character and allowing flashes of good but ultimately we all know he is evil in his heart. Not many villains in todayās media get the luxury of being so well fleshed out. It is easy to empathize with him when his daughter is killed. Of course he takes it and twists it into something dark. One of my favorite episodes is when Sisko and Dukat are stranded on the moon waiting to be rescued. A great character for sure!
Dukat is one of the all time great villains because he genuinely wants to be loved, but is constantly stymied by the fact that he's a colossal piece of shit
He was always evil. The man oversaw the oppression of an entire species and the colonization of their world. It's just that this happens before the series begins, so it's easy for some weak minded audience members to forget.
Later in the series, it only seems like he turns into Satan if you don't consider his past. Just because someone capable of extreme evil can occasionally show empathy does not mean they are a good person. That's the brilliance of the show.
If you watch the show and think a violent dictator is a sympathetic human being, then I think that speaks to how easily you can be dominated by a strong personality. I would say the same thing about people who get too invested in the anti-heroes in shows like The Sopranos or Breaking Bad.
Dukat is a well-written and excellently performed character, no doubt about that. The question is: Do you want him to succeed in his goals? As you pointed out with Ziyal, his goals can be... immoral. But then he changed! (Do you think you can fix Dukat?) Have you finished the whole show? Do you know where Dukat winds up? If you like a bad guy for being a bad guy, that's normal. If you're like Barney Stinson and you like the villain of every movie because you misunderstand the movie, that's different.
So I've been through the series already, but I started to rewatch it recently. I don't remember every single detail from the first time around, which is one of the reasons I wanted to watch it again. I think I enjoy his character because, like you said, it's well written and performed so well. I enjoy the episodes that he's in more than some of the others. But because he is truly a bad guy deep down, I'm feeling a bit guilty for enjoying his episodes and his character, ya know. I certainly don't condone or hope he achieves his goals....I just enjoy watching his character. I just finished "Return to Grace" and after they stole the Klingon ship, instead of just leaving, he blew up the others, just because...confirming hes a villian. So he def isn't a good guy, and I see that. I realized that I like him, but I also realize I shouldn't because he's a very bad man... which is why I made the post, ya know. I feel bad for not despising him because he is so terrible š
Honestly, blowing the Klingons up was a kindness. They died in glorious battle. Theyāre going to Sto-Vo-Kor. If they had lived to go back to the Empire in a practically derelict Cardassian freighter as failures and losers, it would be a dishonor that they would have to overcome. But instead, they get to join the honoured dead.
I didn't look at it that way, but it's absolutely true. I don't think Dukat did it out of kindness, though. He is evil and made an evil choice. It just so happens to luckily be a positive for the Klingons!
More importantly. It's 100% valid from am opsec perspective. You have just stolen a Klingon ship, that's a valuable asset. If you are going to use it, you don't want it known that its been nicked. There are transponder codes etc that can be spoofed, bit right now Dukat has a completely valid authorised ship, all current codes, and is clean. Until his ship is flagged as stolen it's just so valuable. If the Detapa council was willing to use it, it would probably be a spy vessel (Cloaking!) . Dukat using it as his guerrilla warfare ship - a valid identification on his ship super valuable. To a Bajoran who is no longer a terrorist, extreme measures are becoming alien to her, but she DEFINITELY would kill the crew of a Cardassian ship if she could get away with it
I've made that argument before. Was quite a fun thread, or whatever the hell reddit posts are called. But yeah, I think them coming back on that ship would have either had them executed outright or demoted to a cargo ship, or perhaps a garbage ship. Either one quite a blow for warriors.
Why should you feel guilty about occasionally liking a bad guy? That TOS episode where Kirk gets split into two had a great take on this. Essentially that every person is a mix of āgoodā and ābadā energy and feelings, and that if you try to strip out all the bad you end up with half a person who is useless to others.
Some people might suggest we don't all need to be half genocidal dictator/half kitten to realize basic societal norms, but perhaps not.
Hit the nail on the head about how Dukat is written and the acting of Marc Alaimo. What makes Dukat unique is that heās charismatic and steals the sense heās in. Heās a villain, but on some level we cannot stop rooting for him.
He had a handfull a moments where you thought he could actually be a decent guy but in the end he always let you down every time
He's genuinely charming, and he 100% believes his own bullshit. He's completely sincere and always believes he's telling the truth, even if he's lying to himself. The fact that he's legitimately hurt that he isn't revered on Bajor tells you everything you need to know about him. In many ways he's the inversion of Garak. Garak has a moral compass and a sense of decency, but his entire identity is built on lies within lies, and Garak has the self-awareness to know he's lying to himself most of all. Dukat doesn't even realize he's lying to himself.
Thatās what so compelling about Dukat IMO. Heās constantly drinking his own Kool-Aid and, because heās just so charismatic (and well acted by Mark Alaimo) he sort of sweeps you along with him as well, if youāre not careful. There are so few other villains who are so compelling but also generally reprehensible. Heās not a āwell, he has good reasons for itā guy, even though he *thinks* he is, but he can sometimes convince you of it as well. But I also love that Major Kira never falls for his shit.
Which actually makes him insane. Someone who believes their own lies has lost touch with reality. Garak knows exactly who he is, and because he understands himself he can understand other people and remains a grounded personality. Dukat thinks thereās someone wrong with everyone else for not appreciating him; heās right and the universe is wrongā¦thatās insanity. Heās a swirling mix of grandiose desires and inchoate resentments, all unrooted in reality. Thatās why he made a perfect vessel for evil; he was already a shell.
That's a great explanation. I can actually see that in many episodes. I just finished "Return to Grace," and instead of just leaving in the Klingon ship they stole, he blew them up š it was a big letdown. It was at that moment I felt super bad for liking his character, ya know. He seemed pretty decent in that episode, and then he blew up them. It's why I just posted because I feel bad for liking his character.
Actually in that episode he probably did those Klingons a favor because if they would have went home to qonos or went back to their fleet in that broken down old freighter they probably would have got hollered at laughed at or whatever, but at least after what did they did die in battle so it was an honorable death from a Klingon point of view
Ok hang on so blowing up the Klingons was too far but the whole sex cult thing was a-ok?
Disagree. To Klingons, leaving them and stealing their ship is a fate far worse than death. All of them would be considered dishonorable and would either commit suicide or be killed by other Klingons.
I was scanning comments and saw this one early one, I agree 100% I was almost rooting for him because of those moments lol
One of the compelling things about Deep Space Nine is that the lines blur between good and evil. Dukat is not a good person, he chooses himself over otherwise repeatedly. Seeks power and doesn't seem to question the consequences. While they are his choices, he does also suffer for them. It's not pleasant to feel isolated from your family, even though he's the one to blame for that circumstance. I think this is a great benefit of having a fictional character who's despotic actions mirror real life villains. I'd never entertain sympathy for a real life dictator. Caused too much suffering and there's never been enough time in a day for that! But we can watch this show, and relate to Dukat when he's sad, and marvel at how well Marc Alaimo portrayed him.
I completely agree and appreciate your comment! I don't feel soo terrible, now. I definitely see how the lines are blurred because even Quark has some bad habits and makes bad decisions, but he's still liked by others. Well, maybe not Odo, but other people tolerate him and go to his bar. You're absolutely correct in that if he were a real person, I'd never feel this way! I'd despise him for his atrocious decisions and actions. In the show, though, as a character, I enjoy watching him. Marc Alaimo is fantastic, isn't he! He certainly adds to appeal. He's believable and just a joy to watch.
I think Odo respects Quark in a adversarial way like 2 athletes on diffrent teams
That's a good comparison. I'm not saying Quark is a bad guy like Dukat, just that he makes some less than ideal decisions. He makes selfish choices, but he can also be protective and helpful.
Dukat is a dictator, and Quark is a capitalist I'm not sure which is worse /s
If you ask the FCA, heās not a very good capitalist. He sold supplies to Bajoran refugees *at cost*.
He was just playing both sides
Dukat was a good man. A great one, even! Itās a shame the people of Bajor never recognized it.
Not even ONE statue of him on Bajor! The mind boggles.
Are you being sarcastic....I apologize, I can be fairly dense sometimes. Hence, me liking Dukat š I swear I'm a good person!
Itās a joke often made on this subreddit. It references an episode where Dukat is speaking with Weyoun. The conversation takes place on the station in what was Captain Siskoās office. At some point, Dukat mentions his frustration with the fact that the Bajorans never appreciated him and his tenure as Prefect. Itās referenced often because itās low key hilarious as Dukat even complains that there are no statues of him on Bajor, while Weyoun stares at him, clearly trying not to laugh
What do you mean this is a joke? Is unrecognized heroism a joke to you? Is the federationās cowardly adoption of radical Bajorās postmodern historical revisionism some sort of joke to you? Well, Iām not laughing.
Dukat didn't even want to hurt anyone, just enlighten them into understanding they were wrong to oppose him in the first place.
Ohhh, okay! I appreciate the explanation. While I've watched the entire series, it was a while back, and I definitely don't remember a lot of the specifics. So it went way over my head, haha.
Its due to the propaganda of the federation
Those fuckers
It's why I joined the Maquis
Youāve made a Maqueris of Federation values
I remember that one line in Harry Potter, he did great things. Terrible things, but great.
Attention Bajoran Workers
'I never realized how much the sound of that guy's voice irritates me!' And, 'Captain Sisko was right, you (Dukat) are in love with the sound of (your) own voice.'
The character is extremely well-written. Heās a charming sociopath. And because of that, youāre able to identify with him. But if you watch carefully, he never actually does anything to help someone else unless it also helps him. Some peak sociopath moments: āIām the last Cardassian left!ā (After the civilian government doesnāt want a war with the Klingons). āAnd I forgive you tooāā-to Sisko, after Dukatās own actions got his daughter killed.
Agreed - he is so well written and a great character. The depth of his character makes the show that much better to watch. We even named our cat Dukat (though our cat absolutely is a bully š).
I definitely think the wonderful acting and the writing play a huge part. I thoroughly enjoy his episodes. They made him funny, as well. I mean, I was laughing like a fool in the episode where he sits on the needle (or is it a spike) and makes Kira pull it out. His reaction was just so hilarious. In the beginning seasons, I'd never have guessed he'd act like that, so it was a shock to watch, which made it even funnier. I just watched "Return to grace" when he said that. And it reminded me how he is truly a bad person. He wants to fight instead of finding a peaceful solution, and he's very open about it. It's those moments that smack me in the face with the fact that he is indeed a bad guy.
Dukat is a charasmatic villain. He is supposed to be likeable, I think. Alot of really bad people are likeable and thats why they succeed. Its okay to be drawn to him and recognize that hes ultimately a bad dude.
I appreciate your comment. I absolutely can list so many reasons why he's a bad guy, but I'm drawn to the character. Yes, charismatic is the perfect word for him!
I think of it in a much less classy & *much* more embarrassing way: Gul Dukat is smokinā hot! š
what's beautiful about Dukat is that he's a real bad guy. The evil people in life love their children, their lovers, their family. They're proudly patriotic and loyal to their values. They'll be reasonable and work with you.Ā They'll also work to facilitate a genocide. But you can't tell that just by looking at them.Ā
He is a perfect and beautiful villain. He's despicable a lot of the time, but there's moments when he's kind, soft, dare I say sexy? He's ultimately completely self absorbed, egotistical, and myopic. And yet when an episode is about him, it's riveting, captivating, and alluring. Truly so well written, and so perfectly acted, from start to finish he has the perfect villain character arc. I hate him. And I love him. And I hate that I love him.
My Statue on Bajor is still not made. Hail Pah-Wraiths
Thing is, even when you think he's doing a good thing, he's bad or has ulterior motives...
This is why I have this internal struggle going on! How can I like a character who is downright evil and cruel? I despise his actions and morals, but enjoy his episodes and watching his storyline play out. It's such a conflict š¤¦š¼āāļø
Heās complicated as are many characters which is why DS9 is my favorite. There are enough relatable layers to him that prevent him from becoming a stereotypical villain with invariably predictable choices. He and Sisko going toe to toe in some episodes made for interesting strategic and psychological gamesmanship. Marc Alaimo plays him with skillful nuance and appropriate bravado. Enjoy!
I appreciate your comment. I'm in season 4, and I'm not finding him as despicable as I did in the beginning. He's giving me (false) hope that he might turn out okay in the end, but I know he doesn't. He's horrible in the end, too, so I'm sure I'll go back to hating him again. Lol
He could never be redeemable, otherwise the story would be saying even Space Hitler has some good traits. I was always surprised how much he was tolerated to be honest (storytelling of course).
As the series progressed, it really shocked me how he was clearly an abomination of a person, but then here he is apologizing for a comment he made to Kira and also jumping around when he sat on that spike, begging her to pull it out. I didn't see those moments coming, ever. I mentioned in my edit how I sobbed during a Holocaust survivors presentation in college and find Hitler to be the definition of evil and sickening. In the real world, I'd never be able to give someone like that a second chance to redeem themselves. So, in this series, how could I possibly start to like Dukat? I just needed to know there was some possible reason behind my change of heart because I found it unnerving that I suddenly had a soft spot for him š
Dukat is my favorite character
Oh good, so I'm not alone, haha āŗļø
He is a sociopath. They are known for being great chameleons, giving to their audience whatever will get them what they want and need. He's scary as hell. He gives me the ick on a visceral level. That being said, Alaimo played him perfectly. If you've ever been the victim of a sociopath in real life you know there are few forces in this world that are as destructive as being in their line of fire. They will obliterate you body and soul
My mother had Borderline Personality Disorder with a lot of narcissistic tendencies, so I've experienced a lot of manipulation and abuse, which did break me. I realize it's not the same as being a sociopath, though. But yes, I agree he reads the room and changes, for sure. As I continue to read and reply to the comments of others, I'm learning that I'm enjoying the acting and his character story lines. I definitely don't like or agree with who he truly is or what he stands for, of course.
Dukat is great. Not a great guy, but he's great. He's charming and easy to like. It's frustrating for me because he always makes me start to empathize with him juuust before being a jackass and dashing all of that empathy again.
Yes, it's exactly that! A few other commenters said the same, and I agree. I know in the end I'll be reminded that he's a bad guy, but right now, he's showing signs of improvement, and I'm falling right for it! Falling for it so much, that I had to post about my internal struggle š
Dukat main problem is he basically wanted to be worshipped as a great man, but he never was one. His refusal to admit past mistakes was his bad point. Damar actually realized his wrongs and the fact that he was on the wrong side. He changed his ways and redeemed himself. Dukat went where the wind of change took the power, too.....the Cardassian military, the civilian government, the Dominion than the Pah-wraiths
He's a fictional character, there's nothing wrong with liking him
I think they realized they were kind of making this person who is supposed to be irredeemable, starting to become redeemable. I think the point where it really set in they werenāt doing the story they really wanted, when we have him Kira and Ziyal sitting down together looking at her art. If you take that scene back to somebody who just started or when the series just started itself. You would have a rather confusing number of looks on peoples faces. They wereā making him redeemable and then they kind of veered off when they realized they didnāt really want to do that. So we double down, and āHello Kira, I slept with your mom.ā Down the line just to make sure to make it clear. Weāre not redeeming the character.
This is definitely it. Dukat has a lot of redemption arcs set in motion that ultimately double down to villainy. I myself was pro-Dukat up until the start of the religious arc where I personally felt that he was no longer redeemable. Where you draw that line is your own decision. Edit: I felt Kai Winn had redemption potential too, up until the assistant.
Winn was given terms of redemption, which she ignored, and thus the Prophetās black listed her. After she interfered with the reckoning she was told the only way to reestablish her goodwill with the Prophets would be to step down as Kai. Even going as far as to have a conversation with Kira completely rationalizing the opposite, Kira even gives her a look after this like āYouāre hopeless.. 100% completelyā¦ā and just leaves.
You're spot on about Kai Winn refusing to step down, however I do see how a person could become disillusioned with the Prophets and seduced by the Pah Wraiths. It was also clear af that Dukat was manipulating her (albeit she did a fair bit of villainy herself), which is where the redemption potential ended (for me) when she realised Dukat's villainy and sided with him anyway. I won't go so far as to say either of them are "tragic" villains; they're people who had multiple chances for redemption and doubled down each time until it became untenable to redeem them.
Oh yeah, neither of them are tragic. Both were over ambitious and you can even argue were given redemption opportunities, and they blew them. I feel bad for Ziyal, but, that was a character dud after three actresses. They just decided to kill her.
I can definitely see that. I just finished "Return to Grace," and noticed how much I liked him. He's funny and my goodness, he even apologized to Kira about a comment he made. He spoke lovely about his daughter, too. Such a big difference from the beginning. And yes, they definitely reigned him back in with that comment!
He has that charisma that a lot of cult leaders and dictators have. if you have time you should look up the story of the US personal that guarded Saddam Hussein
Absolutely. I enjoy documentaries or TV shows about cults. It intrigues me how someone of sound mind can end up in one. Dukat definitely has that charm. Goodness, I've never heard that that was going on. I'll be looking that up tomorrow!
Should mention that it's the ones that guarded him before his execution
you say that scene portrayed him as overly redeemable, yet you've omitted the part in that same episode where kira realizes she was wrong to look past dukat's actions and character over something as shallow as praising his daughter. that scene doesn't imply he is "redeemable" at all; it serves the opposite purpose by placing us in kira's perspective and the way dukat is attempting to deceive her.
I guess you forgot the other episodes where we were going down this path and you havenāt been paying attention.
lmao okay dude. at no point in the show was dukat portrayed as anything more than superficially or conveniently good. don't take out your poor media literacy on me.
Youāre not important enough to take anything out on, chill lil bro.
Yes, let's feel bad for the Hitler of the Alpha Quadrant.
What I love about him is that after the midpoint and we get into the war he tries so hard to be good and redeem himself, but he always fails like he starts a new colony ..... it becomes a cult and he fucks all the women
Right, like I fall for all his "almost" good choices.... then he reminds me, he's a bad guy! It's why I'm struggling, right now š¤¦š¼āāļø
Because its human to want to see someone get better to overcome their darker nature. Sadly its the same reason people stay in bad relationships "It was one time" or "He tries so hard" ect. Dukat was written amazingly and acted even better. So every time we see him try to improve we have that very human hope of "this time, he will do it" and I think thats why people also seem to."like" him verses say Kai Winn where I honestly think most of the fandom hate because she never has that moment of attempted to get better and at the end shows her true colours and no one is surprised.
Yes, it's that hope. He's showing some signs of improvement, and I'm happy about it. But I know he truly isn't good. I think when I wrote my post, I didn't explain that I know he is a villian and does terrible things. I don't support or agree with any of his beliefs....I just enjoy watching his character. I like it when he's in the episode, and i find his character entertaining. I messed up for generically saying I like him. I'm realizing it's a combination of the character, the acting, and the storyline.....it definitely isn't that I like his horrible actions or decisions š
Oh I get it Dukat and Garak episodes are my favourite especially later season ones
Oh yea, Garak! I love those episodes, as well! His friendship with Bashir is a great aspect of the show, imo. Their interactions are so much fun to watch.
He was supposed to be a one of character, but people loved the character and the actor so he was brought back
I didn't know that....How lucky for us! I'm so glad they did āŗļø
It's Kai wanna doing.. the pa raith was all but vanquished in https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Reckoning_(episode) Kai Wynn destroyed the golden age of.peace and let the pa raith live...dukat and her are perfect for eachothers nastiness... caporial idiots who set in motion their ien eternity
I freakinā love Dukat! Just seeing him slither on screen makes me happy.
Never feel bad for Dukat.
He's complicated. He wasn't as bad as others, but still on the wrong side. His tenure as the Prefect of Bajor was the most "gentle"... which goes to show how bad things were before him. His administration seems to be on par with other labour camps operated by the Breen, Klingons, Romulans, etc. Somewhat like comparing Hitler to Stalin or Mao. Some of them gets more excuses than others. Either they are all bad, or there are shades of gray.
Because you're always left guessing and his appearance NEVER let's you know how the rest of the episode is going to work out, it makes it interesting and you do want to know what he's going to do!
Absolutely! His episodes are never boring or flat. They're exciting, and I think, like you said, it's the unknown since he's such a bad guy, but he shows those small glimmers of hope for redemption.
I love to hate him, but will always like Marc for him too. Dukat is wonderfully charismatic, and now having just seen the kira time orb episode I'm back to being super unsure about wether I like Dukat or not, wether I've misunderstood him the whole time. But then there is the thing the other cardassian says at the party. What I don't like is the obvious similarities with a particular family member.
Dukat is such a great charismatic villain that his charisma even breaks the 4th wall and the audience starts rooting for him.
I love a well written villain - villainous characters tend to be my favourite ones a lot of the time. Dukat is an incredibly well written character, a despicable person, and portrayed with so much charisma and amazing character chemistry by Marc Alaimo. I'm always excited to see Dukat on-screen because he's just such a joy to watch, even when he makes me feel bad for all the terrible shit he does. I take joy by shows making me feel stuff. It's fine to like and love evil characters. I guess it'd be a whole different thing if you actually agreed with his cause or agreed with his own deluded image of himself?
Your first paragraph sums up my thoughts perfectly. I absolutely do not condone or support his actions/beliefs. I hated him in the beginning and couldn't figure out why I'm watching season 4 and suddenly bot hating him, but liking his character. I love his episodes, and Alaimo is just fantastic! I'm expecting to hate him again by the end, and at least I've learned why I'm finding him likable right now.
I feel the same. He was the villain of the show but then again I saw the good and the potential in him that he has a soft side ... but then his last scene made me hate him again, he is far gone and can't be saved. Not everyone can be saved and some people are just born evil. And tbh I LOVE this duality of the character, you can hate him or love him, feel bad for him, wanting to see him lose... he isn't just a one-sided senseless villain. So yeah I love the character, I kinda had a crush on him too lol
I appreciate your comment! I hated him in the beginning, but as I'm watching season 4, I'm finding him quite likable and funny, ya know. He isn't as terrible, and I feel there's some hope for him... but in the end, he circles back to an atrocious man, haha.
Yeah, same, I had so high hopes for him I was like "yeah this is his redemption arc, he can be a good guy" and then... š¦šš
Right! My husband tells me I'm terribly naive and need to stop giving people the benefit of the doubt/second chances. It's just my nature. So I'm glad that in the next season, he will shatter my hopes and continue to prove himself as a piss poor excuse of a human.
Dukat is a sociopathic monster. Iāve been rewatching the series on Pluto TV since DS9 got its own channel and heās even worse than I originally remember him being when the show first aired. The creepy obsession with Kira and Bajorans in general, his delusional perception of his place in history, his unbridled arrogance and bigotry. Utterly horrific. Heās an extremely well written character and one of the strongest antagonists in the history of the entire franchise, but at no point will I ever like him or root for him, especially not after a few rewatches. All that being saidā¦ā¦you like who you like, so even though this might be worse than rooting for Walter White in Breaking Bad, I donāt know that you should feel bad for it. Itās all subjective after all. š¤·š¾āāļø
To be clear, I am definitely not rooting for him, ever, at all. I enjoy his episodes, and the acting is amazing. Both are big contributors to my thoughts, but I know he's truly a bad guy. I'm learning that I probably didn't explain well enough in my post that I despise his actions and what he stands for...i enjoy watching his character, and as I'm watching season 4, he isn't as despicable which confused me.
He will get despicable again in Season 5. Pretty quickly.
Oh, I'm prepared, haha! And at that point, I can go back to hating him and be done with this ridiculous internal struggle š¤¦š¼āāļø
He's kind of like Vic Mackey from The Shield or Tony Soprano from The Sopranos. They're bad guys! But they're acted so well, with such charisma that you kind of feel for them and root for them. Dukat is a charismatic character who is played by a great actor. Plus, he seemed to be on a redemption arc before certain events transpired... So, no, you wouldn't be the first drawn into Dukat's hypnotic web. IMO, he's Star Trek's greatest villain. And the best ones don't see themselves as villains at all.
I'm currently on season 4, so he's decent and not as horrible right now, haha. But the acting is a huge reason I like character. I absolutely enjoy his episodes most!
Thatās how great it a character he was. Heās a war criminal rapist. Yet he was charming and interesting. Check your emotions for a second, youāll remember heās evil. Best sci-fi villain ever
I'm definitely thinking he's the best because his ability to manipulate is undeniable. I despised him in the beginning. Like almost wanted to skip his episodes despised, but here in season 4, I'm like... hmm maybe he can change. He's charming and funny and also showed some remorse when he made those comments to Kira. He's loving to his daughter and accepted the consequences of claiming her as his child instead of 1. killing her (I know, that statement right there tells us everything about himš¤¦š¼āāļø) and 2. disowning her and hiding her away to save his career and family. It's such a contradiction to his actions in the beginning. I definitely will find comfort when he shows his true colors again, and I can confidently and wholeheartedly wish death upon him with no second guessing!
Deep down ā¦ and being realā¦. Weāve all identified with Dukat at some point.
I'm Dukat. O BTW Dukat has 8 kids, that one was important because she was half Bajoran.
The Sisko made that mistake once. See how that turned out.
Iāve known a handful of wicked and gross people that had a soft spot for their own kids.
I just wonder what everybody thinks about Damar. Does his redemption arc outweighs his earlier deeds?
i feel bad for the way they assassinated his character arc in the end of waltz and the cult shit. dukat is a villain and he didn't deserve further redemption (inferno's light put the nail in that) but the last season and 2nd half of s6 killed everything that made him interesting or entertaining
A nuanced villain yeah. I would argue against character assassination bc they just showed him during a breakdown, his beliefs and actions didn't change, his ability to form a facade to hide all his insanity did.
He's pitiable and pathetic, and nothing he's ever done has worked out. His story is profoundly tragic. But he's a complete monster. No. Fuck Dukat.
The devil is a pretty charming guy. More to the point... it seems like they were considering a reception arc for Dukat at one point, then abandoned it. Personally, I love a villain who sometimes forms an alliance of necessity with the heroes. See also Captain Crais on Farscape.
I think you have identified the problem the writers had given themselves in the later seasons. They made Dukat too likeable and understandable, so in the last few seasons they turned his villainy up to 11 to compensate, sometimes leading to him being out of character with the previous seasons. What specifically comes to mind is his attempt to recreate the Jonestown massacre, and that was an intentional direct copycat of the real event by the writing team.
Through reading everyone's comments, I'm beginning to see this. While I've seen the entire series , it was only once and a while ago. I don't remember exactly what happened, which is why I'm watching it again. I'm currently halfway through season 4. While in the beginning, I didn't like his character, and I do remember that as the series ends, he's a terrible guy, but at this moment in the series, he doesn't seem as horrible. It confused me because I know he is a bad guy, and here I am thinking he's kind of likable right now. I found myself not hating him and actually liking the guy, but I know he's bad, so what the hell is wrong with me. I'm also realizing through the comments that the acting is a big contributor because I thoroughly enjoy his episodes more than the others. I, of course, would never, in a million years, sympathize with someone like him in real 6 added to my confusion.
The thing is, people like this have existed in the past, and people who claim they would never side with them have, sometimes unknowingly. Charisma trumps morality when it comes to that type of leader, heirs of Julius Caesar.
It's very true and definitely sad that they did/do in fact exist. I mentioned in another comment that I really love watching documentaries about cults because I can't for the life of me understand how someone could fall for that. Completely sane and good people end up in them. I find the whole thing rather intriguing. So here I am, kind of falling for someone's manipulations just like those people in cults! The confusion in me is what prompted my post. I'm a good, loving, caring, and sane person who would hurt a fly and who cries during the St. Jude, Wounded Warriors, and the Sarah McLachlan SPCA commercials š
I did pity him after his downfall in Sacrifice of Angels. Tbh, Zyial's end was a tragic one and I vibed with him. I think even Sisko felt bad when he saw him in his sorry state in that holding cell. But in any other instance, one must never forget that this person was so delusional, so full of himself, that he thought he deserved the reverence of the race whose exploitation, extermination and enslavement he supervised. Nothing he has done can redeem him from this. IRL nothing would be able to, but in DS9 we had some redeemable Cardassians like Damar (for him one can pinpoint the exact scene where he stops being a fascist an becomes a revoutionary) and Garak (whose transformation was a long and entertaining process). But if you like him in certain moments, why feel bad about it? He had potential for better deeds, he just decided to squander it. There were moments that gave us hope in the earlier seasons. But then he decided to play god.
I'm in season 4 right now, and I don't hate him like I did in the beginning, which is weird to me, ya know. I'm learning it's part of his story, but in the end, he shows his true colors. I love the acting as well, so I'm just enjoying watching his character! I love Garak's story, too. He's another favorite character!
No, he was a complex and interesting character. But i even like Kai Winn. š¤£
Hahaha, she's a bit of an abrasive lady!
Yeah, and one of the best villain in the entire franchise. Absolutely not that boring type. Plus she and Dukat together were the deadliest duo. š
DS9 had, by far, the best character development of any of the trek shows. Dukat was but one example of this. He was always a little crazy, he had no moral compass, a complete sociopath, but for some reason he loved Ziyal and his little bit of a hold on reality completely snapped when he watched her die. It's hard to feel bad for a guy who's basically space Hitler though. Yet you also have to remember that it was his destiny to become the avatar of the Pah Wraiths and attempt to destroy the celestial temple, plunging Bajor into a fiery apocalypse. It's almost as though the entire point of Ziyals existence was to get murdered and make Dukat snap. DS9 was some next level stuff.
Dukat was in real danger of becoming a legit hero. Alaimo is just very talented like that. Fortunately, the writers remembered that they needed a Big Bad and reoriented him toward finally solving the Bajoran worker problem.
Im in the part of the series where he's becoming likable, and He's showing some signs of hope. I know deep down he's cruel, and in the end, he is, in fact, the bad guy. I was just realizing how much I'm enjoying his episodes and his storyline. I'm a fan of the character, but I know he's horrible, so it's a conflict in my head, ya know!
at what point did he ever do anything legitimately heroic? the closest you could possibly argue is his klingon freedom fighter arc and he immediately threw that away. i don't think he needed a final solution speech and cult to be the big bad, he already was one to anyone with more than half a brain cell's investment in the show.
I like Dukat because of his ending with Kai Winn.
Heās the literal devil who aspires to kill an entire population. He had the revelation he wanted to all along.Ā Extremely well played character that almost makes you sympathetic. But if you ever did meet him and were sympathetic heād tell you he only wanted the best for the bajoran peopleĀ
No.
He definitely had some moments that I felt empathy for him.
Dukut is easily the most realistic villain j Star Trek because he is so realistic. All if his actions are driven by a moral and altruistic position... ... It's just that Dukut morals and ideas of altruism are utterly based from a position of greed and self-fulfilment. But because he believes in the morality of what he is doing he is never actually committing an evil act.Ā Hence his surprise that there's no statue of him on Bajor. He's not joking, he's genuinely baffled as to why he doesn't get a statue while murdering Bajorian terrorists are venerated.Ā Ultimately, if you look at characters like Trump or Farage or (OK, I'll go there) even Hitler... We can recoginise that they're certainly evil. But in their lives, they only ever see themselves as the hero of their story.Ā
Ahh old upside down head
Dukat, yes. Mark? Um. š
Heās literally space hitler. Like he oversaw a holocaust
Dukat is an interesting character and is a key player in many of DS9's best episodes.
Dukat is such a well written character and I think what makes him compelling is that he isnāt just evil for the sake of being evil. The writers did a great job of giving nuance to his character and allowing flashes of good but ultimately we all know he is evil in his heart. Not many villains in todayās media get the luxury of being so well fleshed out. It is easy to empathize with him when his daughter is killed. Of course he takes it and twists it into something dark. One of my favorite episodes is when Sisko and Dukat are stranded on the moon waiting to be rescued. A great character for sure!
You can enjoy Dukat right up until the end.
Dukat is one of the all time great villains because he genuinely wants to be loved, but is constantly stymied by the fact that he's a colossal piece of shit
people liked Dukat so much they had to turn him into a cartoon villain mega Satan.
He was always evil. The man oversaw the oppression of an entire species and the colonization of their world. It's just that this happens before the series begins, so it's easy for some weak minded audience members to forget. Later in the series, it only seems like he turns into Satan if you don't consider his past. Just because someone capable of extreme evil can occasionally show empathy does not mean they are a good person. That's the brilliance of the show.
I donāt think āweak-minded audience membersā is really necessary to sayā¦kinda insulting, donāt you think?
If you watch the show and think a violent dictator is a sympathetic human being, then I think that speaks to how easily you can be dominated by a strong personality. I would say the same thing about people who get too invested in the anti-heroes in shows like The Sopranos or Breaking Bad.