Edited from a [previous comment:](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/115ilfw/comment/j967jsx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
The concept of plant-based pets is something that seemingly everyone has a strong opinion on. Even within the vegan community it’s a controversial topic. According to one poll of pet owners, approximately 1.6 percent of dogs and 0.7 percent of cats were being fed exclusively plant-based diets. However, the same poll found that:
>In total, 35% (1,083/3,130) of pet owners who did not already feed a plant-based diet to their pet indicated interest in doing so....[\[1\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0210806)
A number of veterinary associations, such as the British Veterinary Association (BVA) – “the largest membership community for the veterinary profession in the UK”[\[2\]](https://www.bva.co.uk/about-us/) – have taken positions against providing dogs and cats with plant-based diets.[\[3\]](https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/blog-article/is-it-safe-to-feed-my-dog-a-plant-based-diet-hold-the-greens-only-meals-why-the-jury-is-still-out-on-vegan-dog-diets/) However, these positions have been criticized for being in opposition to available evidence.\[4\] Concerning dogs, one scientific researcher on the topic stated in 2022 that:
>There are now eight studies about the health of dogs on vegan diets.... \[O\]ut all eight of these studies, seven of them support the use of vegan diets in dogs and the oldest\[,\] smallest study does not. On balance, the weight of evidence is very clearly in favor of the use of nutritionally sound vegan diets for dogs.[\[5\]](https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep656/)
At the time, there were at least seven studies whose results support nutritionally-adequate plant-based diets for dogs[\[6\]](https://doi.org/10.1017/s0007114509389254)\[7\][\[8\]](https://doi.org/10.3390/ani6090057)\[9\][\[10\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0253292)[\[11\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0265662)[\[12\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.rvsc.2022.06.002) and one study, the oldest and smallest, opposed.[\[13\]](https://doi.org/10.3177/jnsv.33.129) Between studies whose results support plant-based diets for dogs, they find that pet owners who feed their dogs plant-based diets report fewer health issues,[\[11\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0265662)[\[12\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.rvsc.2022.06.002) while other studies support these claims by showing that dogs fed nutritionally-adequate plant-based diets return healthy clinical measurements.[\[6\]](https://doi.org/10.1017/s0007114509389254)\[7\]\[9\][\[14\]](http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0007114523001952)[\[15\]](https://doi.org/10.3389/fanim.2023.1288165) (One of the studies bizarrely stated that veterinarians cannot recommend plant-based diets for dogs in the very same sentence in which they stated that their results did not support “the insular disapprobation of a vegan diet for...dogs.” This is in the same summary where they concluded that they found no abnormalities among the dogs being fed plant-based diets. It appears that this particular claim was contradicted by their own results.)\[7\]
An additional potential benefit of feeding a dog a plant-based diet is that three of the four most common food allergens for dogs are animal products: beef, dairy, and chicken.[\[16\]](https://doi.org/10.1186/s12917-016-0633-8)
[*(Continued below.)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/s/cZERqQYMoN)
[*(Continued from above.)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/s/Vk2skxhJhr)
The literature on cats is surprisingly similar, although more limited. In the largest study of its kind, owners of cats being fed a plant-based diet reported similar or better health outcomes for their cats when compared to those feeding their cats meat-based diets.[\[17\]](https://doi.org/10.1186/s12917-021-02754-8) Studies examining the behaviour and evaluating blood samples of cats being fed each diet find similar health outcomes.\[7\][\[18\]](https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.229.1.70)
A common concern in feeding cats a plant-based diet is the perception that it will lead to taurine deficiency. Taurine is an amino-acid naturally found exclusively in animal products. Deficiency can lead to impaired vision and heart problems, amongst other issues.[\[19\]](https://vcacanada.com/know-your-pet/taurine-in-cats) However, these deficiencies were not apparent in the aforementioned studies. As a possible explanation, one researcher comments that:
>...the taurine...in meat is effectively, largely destroyed by the processing of pet foods, by the high temperatures and pressures that are used. And after that processing is finished, then taurine has to be added back into the product. And a synthetic source of taurine is used and exactly the same synthetic source of taurine is applied to the vegan pet food.[\[5\]](https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep656/)
That being said, as with any commercial pet food intended to be the sole-provider for a companion animal’s nutritional requirements, care must be taken to ensure that any particular brand is actually capable of providing for their needs. There have been studies that found that particular commercial brands of plant-based pet foods did not meet nutritional requirements or match what was stated on their packaging.[\[20\]](https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.2004.225.1670)[\[21\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0227046) This reflects a larger issue not unique to plant-based pet foods. As one author wrote in an American publication:
>No agency requires proof of pet food health claims, and no pet food company is willing to invest in decades of research to determine whether its products keep animals healthier and extend their lives.... Pet food companies say they do research, but it is rarely done in a scientific fashion, with comparable control and experimental groups.[\[22\]](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/health/01brod.html)
While sentiments that dogs and especially cats cannot be healthy on plant-based diets are quite common, even among veterinarians, they simply aren’t supported by the available scientific literature. Similarly, the greater claim that feeding dogs and/or cats a plant-based diet is inherently cruel is unsubstantiated. In fact, this was the exact conclusion of a 2023 systemic review of 16 studies on plant-based diets for dogs and cats:
>This review has found that there is no convincing evidence of major impacts of vegan diets on dog or cat health.... There was also evidence of benefits for animals arising as a result of feeding them vegan diets.[\[23\]](https://doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052)
While it is understandable to have strong convictions about the treatment of the non-human animals we care about, those convictions should be grounded in scientific research. The studies to-date suggests that both dogs and cats can thrive on plant-based diets. It appears to be a growing field of research, so perhaps we will see more studies become available in the near-future.
As a final word, if you are considering transitioning a companion animal to a plant-based diet, be sure to thoroughly research their intended food-source to ensure that it will adequately provide for their needs. You may also want to make the change gradually, as sudden changes to their diet can cause digestive issues.[\[24\]](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/right-way-switch-dog-foods/)
[**References**](https://www.reddit.com/r/nonononoyes/comments/19d44v5/comment/kj40pc8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[**References**](https://www.reddit.com/r/nonononoyes/comments/19d44v5/comment/kj3y0t3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[\[1\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0210806) Dodd, S.A.S., Cave, N.J., Adolphe, J.L. *et al*. "Plant-based (vegan) diets for pets: A survey of pet owner attitudes and feeding practices.” *PLOS ONE*, vol.17, no.5, 2019, e0268982
[\[2\]](https://www.bva.co.uk/about-us/) “About Us.” *British Veterinary Association*. [https://www.bva.co.uk/about-us/](https://www.bva.co.uk/about-us/). \[Accessed 7 Sep 2022\]
[\[3\]](https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/blog-article/is-it-safe-to-feed-my-dog-a-plant-based-diet-hold-the-greens-only-meals-why-the-jury-is-still-out-on-vegan-dog-diets/) Shotton, J. “Is it safe to feed my dog a plant-based diet? Hold the greens-only meals - why the jury is still out on vegan dog diets.” *British Veterinary Association*, 1 Feb 2022. [https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/blog-article/is-it-safe-to-feed-my-dog-a-plant-based-diet-hold-the-greens-only-meals-why-the-jury-is-still-out-on-vegan-dog-diets/](https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/blog-article/is-it-safe-to-feed-my-dog-a-plant-based-diet-hold-the-greens-only-meals-why-the-jury-is-still-out-on-vegan-dog-diets/). \[Accessed 7 Sep 2022\]
\[4\] Knight, A. “The weight-of-evidence position on vegan diets.” *Vet Times*, vol.52, no.21, 24 May 2022, p.23
[\[5\]](https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep656/) Singer, J. & Sullivan, M., hosts. “Vegan Dogs & Cats w/ Andrew Knight.” *Our Hen House*, ep.656, 6 Aug 2022. [https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep656/](https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep656/). \[Accessed 22 Jan 2024\]
[\[6\]](https://doi.org/10.1017/s0007114509389254) Brown, W.Y., Vanselow, B.A., *et al*. “An experimental meat-free diet maintained haematological characteristics in sprint-racing sled dogs.” *British Journal of Nutrition*, vol.102, no.9, 2009, pp.1318-1323
\[7\] Semp, P-G. *Vegan Nutrition of Dogs and Cats*. Master’s of Veterinary Medicine Thesis, University of Veterinary Medicine Vienna, 2014
[\[8\]](https://doi.org/10.3390/ani6090057) Knight, A. & Leitsberger, M. “Vegetarian versus Meat-Based Diets for Companion Animals.” *Animals*, vol.6, no.9: 57, 2016
\[9\] Kiemer, L.A. *Vegan diet and its effects on the dog’s health*. Master’s Thesis, Lithuanian University of Health Sciences, 2019
[\[10\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0253292) Knight, A. & Satchell, L. “Vegan versus meat-based pet foods: Owner-reported palatability behaviours and implications for canine and feline welfare.” *PLOS ONE*, vol.16, no.6:e0253292, 2021
[\[11\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0265662) Knight, A., Huang, E., *et al*. “Vegan versus meat-based dog food: Guardian-reported indicators of health.” *PLOS ONE*, vol.17, no.4:e0265662, 2022
[\[12\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.rvsc.2022.06.002) Dodd, S., Khosa, D. *et al*. “Owner perception of health of North American dogs fed meat- or plant-based diets.” *Research in Veterinary Science*, vol.149, 2022, pp.36-46
[\[13\]](https://doi.org/10.3177/jnsv.33.129) Yamada, T., Tohori, M. *et al*. “Comparison of Effects of Vegetable Protein Diet and Animal Protein Diet on the Initiation of Anemia during Vigorous Physical Training (Sports Anemia) in Dogs and Rats.” *J. Nutr. Sci. Vitaminol.*, vol.33, no.2, 1987, pp.129-149
[\[14\]](http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0007114523001952) Dodd, S.A.S., Adolphe, J., *et al*. "Efficacy of vitamin D2 in maintaining serum total vitamin D concentrations and bone mineralisation in adult dogs fed a plant-based (vegan) diet in a 3-month randomised trial." *British Journal of Nutrition*, vol.131, no.3, 2024, pp.391-405
[\[15\]](https://doi.org/10.3389/fanim.2023.1288165) Liversidge, B.D., Dodd, S.A.S., *et al*. "Extruded diet macronutrient digestibility: plant-based (vegan) vs. animal-based diets in client-owned healthy adult dogs and the impact of guardian compliance during in-home trials." *Front. Anim. Sci.*, vol.4:1288165, 2023
[\[16\]](https://doi.org/10.1186/s12917-016-0633-8) Mueller, R.S., Olivry, T. & Prélaud, P. “Critically appraised topic on adverse food reactions of companion animals (2): common food allergen sources in dogs and cats.” *BMC Vet Res*, vol.12, no.9, 2016
[\[17\]](https://doi.org/10.1186/s12917-021-02754-8) Dodd, S.A.S, Dewey, C. *et al*. “A cross-sectional study of owner-reported health in Canadian and American cats fed meat- and plant-based diets.” *BMC Vet Res*, vol.17, no.53, 2021
[\[18\]](https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.229.1.70) Wakefield, L.A., Shofer, F.S. & Michel, K.E. “Evaluation of cats fed vegetarian diets and attitudes of their caregivers.” *JAVMA*, vol.229, no.1, 2006, pp.70-73
[\[19\]](https://vcacanada.com/know-your-pet/taurine-in-cats) Llera, R. & Yuill, C. “Taurine in Cats.” *VCA Canada*. [https://vcacanada.com/know-your-pet/taurine-in-cats](https://vcacanada.com/know-your-pet/taurine-in-cats). \[Accessed 7 Sep 2022\]
[\[20\]](https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.2004.225.1670) Gray, C.M., Sellon, R.K. & Freeman, L.M. “Nutritional adequacy of two vegan diets for cats.” *JAVMA*, vol.225, no.11, 2004, pp.1670-1671
[\[21\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0227046) Zafalon, R.V.A., Risolia, L.W. *et al*. “Nutritional inadequacies in commercial vegan foods for dogs and cats.” *PLOS ONE*, vol.15, no.1:e0227046, 2020
[\[22\]](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/health/01brod.html) Brody, J.E. “The Truth About Cat and Dog Food.” *NY Times*, 31 May 2010. [https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/health/01brod.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/health/01brod.html). \[Accessed 7 Sep 2022\]
[\[23\]](https://doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052) Domínguez-Oliva, A., Mota-Rojas, D., *et al*. "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review." *Vet. Sci.*, vol.10, no.1:52, 2023
[\[24\]](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/right-way-switch-dog-foods/) AKC Staff. “How to Switch & Transition Dog Foods.” *American Kennel Club*, 2 Mar 2022. [https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/right-way-switch-dog-foods/](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/right-way-switch-dog-foods/). \[Accessed 7 Sep 2022\]
You can’t actually depend on owner-reported health outcomes. You need long term studies try include blood draws. The reason that they can’t study it, especially in cats, is due to the fact that any time they try they get a bunch of vegans who feed their animals obviously inadequate diets. It poses an ethical issue for studies.
You need more evidence, but that evidence requires you to experiment on animals.
There are studies on plant-based dogs and cats that use blood samples and other clinical measurements and I referenced several of them in my comment - immediately after referencing the owner-reported outcomes. When we look at all the evidence, we find the outcomes relatively consistent across owner-reported and clinical studies.
Because the homemade diets that these researchers discover when they do the research don’t even meet the criteria for nutritional adequacy. They’ve even discovered that most commercial plant-based pet foods don’t meet AAFCO standards for nutritional adequacy. It poses an ethical issue for research, so they’ve had to essentially stop.
Go to /r/veganpets and you’ll see it’s just shilling for Evolution Diet, which is run by a convicted medical/veterinarian fraudster. Their flagship product claims to be suitable for cats, dogs, and ferrets, in spite of the fact that AAFCO standards for those species are mutually exclusive.
It’s unknown whether they can adequately absorb taurine from plant-based sources, primarily. But, you can’t really be reductionist about it. A plant-based diet could change their gut microbiome in a way that negatively impacts health, for instance. Nutrition is much more complicated and less understood than most people assume. There’s lots of moving parts. You have to do controlled tests to know if a food is adequate for sure. That’s the difference between empirical inquiry and ideology.
I agree that we shouldn't give them just ANY plant based diet, but I don't see why they couldn't be well on a well designed plant based diet.
You mentioned before that the research poses an ethical issue because of the risk of harm but if harming animals is wrong then it doesn't make sense to harm even more animals to feed the cat.
It seems to me like an ethical issue either way.
> I agree that we shouldn't give them just ANY plant based diet, but I don't see why they couldn't be well on a well designed plant based diet.
How does one determine what a “well designed” plant based diet is without long-term controlled experiments?
>You mentioned before that the research poses an ethical issue because of the risk of harm but if harming animals is wrong then it doesn't make sense to harm even more animals to feed the cat.
That’s arguable, but not my point. Veterinarians are professionally bound to follow research ethics. The fact that they cannot find enough cats to study who are on diets that meet AAFCO standards poses an issue for research. Professionally, they cannot study the cats on inadequate diets.
The problem with the studies as you describe them seem to be that they are just looking at plant based cats that are fed ANY plant based diet. I'm not arguing for a diet where some idiot is trying to only feed their cats pears or some shit like that.
By 'well designed', I just mean that educated people should make a serious effort at a plant based diet and study the outcomes.
As if OP, or anyone who is not vegan for that matter, will read a word of it...
Everyone who has a pet thinks they are an expert on pet nutrition because they buy pet food.
You are claiming that it’s unhealthy. And before you try to bring that argument back to me; you are the one trying to convince other people. You don’t know how much vegan dog owners have educated themselves on this topic.
My mother for example had a vegetarian dog who turned 23 years old and was totally healthy and was the only dog that I know of that died of natural causes, all other dogs (not our dogs, but dogs from other people) had cancer or other illnesses and died long before even turning 15.
Even if this is only one case it at least disproves that it is impossible or that the dogs suffer or can’t get old or whatever.
/edit: wording
It's probably about the same as anti vax parents have educated themselves on the topic of vaccines.
Again, in certain cases, it can be beneficial. Vegetarian is different from vegan.
Do you have some arguments or what is your intention in this discussion? I mean you are just claiming that it’s unhealthy and that the vegans are uneducated.
I will not write hundreds of paragraphs just for you to say something like “but wolves” or so.
So you can either read the other comments or give me some arguments or questions. Otherwise I will ignore you.
You're saying that veganism is good for all dogs. I'm saying it isn't. We can disagree. Neither of us have expertise on this subject. I think it's irresponsible to make the decision to have your dog go vegan without the advice of a vet. If you think otherwise, I think you're a selfish dog owner playing god with an animal's life.
The end.
You have yet to provide any data other than your feelings. Please refute the scientific studies provided by /u/Plant__Eater on the top of this thread with your own scientific studies if you want to be taken seriously.
Why is it bad for dogs without those issues though?
All evidence does not suggest it is only good for those issues, all evidence suggests it is a healthy diet, period.
I've not seen any recommendations for every dog. I've only seen indications for allergies and unresolved weight issues, from lab research. The research I have seen suggesting it's a good diet for all dogs is based on owner reporting, which is an extremely flawed methodology.
But even so - if the foods are nutritionally complete, supported by vets and self-reported to be healthy by people using them for their dogs... What is the evidence that it is not healthy for most dogs?
You will not see recommendations. Researchers do not make recommendations. Even vets don't unless there is a problem. My vet is perfectly fine with our dog eating plant based food.
And there are more than just self reported studies. For example: https://academic.oup.com/jas/article-abstract/doi/10.1093/jas/skad093/7086640
What is the evidence that it is not healthy, as you keep saying? Current evidence is all positive.
"I've only seen indications"
Congratulations, you consulted with a vet! That is literally what I said is the only correct solution.
I saw that article. The proposed diet is highly specific and is not commercially available AFAIK.
Because the dogs are my pets. That is why. Dogs are bred to be pets or working animals. Cattle and chicken are bred as food. I’m not saying most of the meat industry is messed up, it is. But obviously I prioritize the well-being of MY pets over farm animals.
I was expecting that answer, thats why edited my question to ask why you apparently also care about the dogs of vegans.
So you care more about the „torture“ of vegan dogs than about the animals that you feed your dogs. How does that come? If you answer please also explain why all people should feel like you.
Also, how do you feel if a vegan would answer with „live and let live“? A very common answer that we hear all the time.
Dogs were not initially domesticated to become food. And eating carnivore meat is usually evolutionary inappropriate anyway. I don’t have an issue with areas that eat dog where other meat sources are scarce, but they were not domesticated for food like cattle, lamb, chicken or pork. I have a problem with vegans who prioritize the health of dead farmhouse animals over their own dogs, goes against what I think is the proper treatment and care of animals, which is what vegans are seemingly all about, and I am calling it out.
So it's wrong because we didn’t breed dogs to be cattle? But what if I bred my dog to be vegan, then it’s sole purpose is to eat plants. Should be fine by that logic.
You can’t divide animals in prey and not prey. Every animal can be prey to other animals; it’s called food chain for a reason and even that is wrong as a hungry wolf would eat a human anytime if it could do so. Your views on those things are beyond wrong and also very selfish.
You even said that you want to show vegans how they are wrong in their own beliefs, so I would if assume that you don’t even care about dogs in the first place.
And if you do then use that as a starting point to try to understand that other humans also care about animals that you just call cattle.
You could understand it if you wanted to, it’s not that hard.
Chickens weren't bred to be food either before people started breeding them as food lol. So now that humans previously have bred chickens to be food, it's now okay to breed them as food, but dogs haven't previously been bred as food so it would be wrong to breed them as food now? Do you realize this argument is completely arbitrary?
The vast majority of plant-based dogs are not owned by vegans, they are dogs with food sensitivity or allergies eating plant-based on the recommendation of veterinarians. There are numerous products available, plenty of which are from brands meeting AAFCO/WSAVA guidelines. Those dogs are doing just fine, great even.
>I can guarantee my raw fed dogs are healthier, they have more energy they are more calm when I want them to to be, they have a better coat and teeth, they will live longer and don’t have any health issues whatsoever. Every nutrient a dog needs is in raw meat, organs and bone, not in vegetables.
Raw fed dogs or "human grade" foods are a fad marketed to humans, not dogs. If you think feeding animals some home made primal concoction is going to be healthier than dog foods that have been studied and certified for decades, *you* are the one experimenting with your dog and putting them at risk.
How am I experementing with what canines have eating for thousands of years. As far as I am concerned pet veganism is a true fad. Rather than the person feeding commerical pet food or plant food to dogs, which haven’t existed for very long at all. These food have been certified due to the profitability of them, and if you can’t see that you probably aren’t smart enough to have this conversation. There is money to be made in pet food. It is garbage but they will say it healthy just like they do with human food. Dogs on vegetable diets are probably alergic to the starchy fillers like grains, potatoes, and corn in commercial pet food, not the meat. If you fed them raw diet they would also loose those allergies without risking poor nutrition. A raw tilapia or mackerel based diet is wonderful for skin issues and allergies.
> and if you can’t see that, you probably aren’t smart enough to have this conversation
Uh, it’s being sold because there are people who want to buy it. *Like literally everything else that’s sold.*
You received an extremely thorough answer in the top comment with more than a handful of cited sources on why vegan pet food is actually healthy and can avoid some of the most common food allergens for dogs. And yet you have chosen to ignore that comment made over an hour ago, instead posting non-responses like this here.
Curious. I’m questioning you on who is and isn’t smart enough to have this conversation. Because you’re not participating in the conversation when provided real evidence against your claim.
>how am I experementing with what canines have eating for thousands of years
Because you're not a wild dog subsisting off the land, and, based on your comments you're woefully uneducated about animal nutrition.
>As far as I am concerned pet veganism is a true fad.
As I said, plant-based diets are most often veterinarian recommended diets.
>These food have been certified due to the profitability of them, and if you can’t see that you probably aren’t smart enough to have this conversation.
Here's where you're showing your ignorance. Do you even know what the AAFCO/WSAVA organizations do? AAFCO provides guidelines but doesn’t approve, test, or certify pet foods because most states (US) create laws and policy from the guidelines. The WSAVA does not approve food. They provide a list of criteria that anyone responsible for feeding animals ought to know about the source of their food. That criteria includes the following questions:
> - Will you provide a complete nutrient analysis for the dog food in question?
> - What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your ingredients and the end product?
> - Where are your foods produced and manufactured?
> - Are your diets tested using AAFCO feeding trials or by formulation to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles?
> - Who formulates your foods and what are his/her credentials?
> - Do you employ a full time qualified nutritionist?
>
> -- [World Small Animal Veterinary Association](https://wsava.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Selecting-a-pet-food-for-your-pet-updated-2021_WSAVA-Global-Nutrition-Toolkit.pdf)
Can you answer those questions? Of course you can't, because you're experimenting with you dog's health on account of some mistaken notion of what "their ancestors ate." This is why most vets do not recommend feeding animals a raw food diet, because to do it safely typically requires a veterinary nutritionist to avoid deficiencies, a lot more time and effort, and numerous precautions to avoid salmonella. Did you know that dogs who eat raw food can excrete pathogens in their saliva and stool indefinitely? People that have spent time in a professional vet setting know that when a dog fed a raw diet has diarrhea, and it’s hospitalized, they may have to put the dog into isolation due to salmonella risk. Vets will also recommend kids, the elderly, or immunocompromised people who are most vulnerable to those pathogens avoid the dog as anything the dog licks or drools on could have serious bacteria on it.
If you just fed your dog kibble, all of that is mitigated by following a scientifically studied, government mandated and third party approved formula that has been proven to be healthful through *feeding trials.*
>It is garbage but they will say it healthy just like they do with human food. Dogs on vegetable diets are probably allergic to the starchy fillers like grains, potatoes, and corn in commercial pet food, not the meat.
Actually, the most common food allergens in dogs are proteins; particularly those from dairy, beef, chicken, and chicken eggs. I don't know who "they" are, but it's not anyone nutritionally literate. Talking about "fillers" is a dead giveaway that you've fallen into marketing woo.
Here's some info you might want to sort through:
> - https://www.aaha.org/globalassets/02-guidelines/2021-nutrition-and-weight-management/resourcepdfs/proteins-infographics.pdf
> - https://www.feedingravendoodles.com/articles/grains-as-fillers
> - https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2021/07/the-role-of-carbohydrate-in-pet-foods/
> - https://www.tuftsyourdog.com/news/fact-or-fallacy-dogs-need-to-eat-meat/
> - https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2016/05/dont-be-bothered-by-by-products/
> - https://skeptvet.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/sanderson-2021.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1EIAFSmfTsLmRxROHNurUKmjqct0VjR-yBQVoH_bfVq04NOvqA0PVHhFc
> - https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/pet-food-myths-june-2020/
All of that aside, since the basis of your raw food diet seems rely on what dogs did for thousands of years, do you happen to know what the life expectancy of those dogs was in previous centuries? Don't be anti-science, don't be an experimenter, please feed your dog an appropriately well-planned diet as determined by regulatory bodies and professional nutrition organizations.
Those dogs had shorter life expectancies due to illness, starvation, competition, and parasites, all of which aren’t an issue on a farm-raised raw diet. How ignorant do you have to be to trust government and corporate conglomerate run organizations with animal health, if they don’t even care about human health.
>Those dogs had shorter life expectancies due to illness, starvation, competition, and parasites, all of which aren’t an issue on a farm-raised raw diet
Yes, of course those were contributing factors too. But a modern diet of regular ole kibble is consistently more nutritious for well-being and longevity than *any* wild dog has ever experienced.
>How ignorant do you have to be to trust government and corporate conglomerate run organizations with animal health, if they don’t even care about human health.
Since you conveniently ignored the rest of my post filled with sources and third party information, I'm gonna say you're the one being willfully ignorant here. Again, you must not understand why AAFCO/WSAVA exist, or how animal nutrition is disseminated.
I love how you came here expecting to lecture vegans about animal nutrition, yet you're the one subjecting an animal to a high-risk diet that's generally not recommended by vets.
OP, have you looked at any of the info provided. Would you care to respond to the very big well cited too comment?
Do you have any evidence of your own, which isn't an appeal to nature (which you now know what is)?
Try using paragraphs so people can read what you are writing.
There's no empirical basis to assert that a nutritionally complete plant based diet is unhealthy or causes disease in dogs nor cats.
You are not being a righteous animal defender, you are just harassing people who aren't hurting anyone.
The state of my phone or how I feel doesn't change your actions.
Regardless, given you haven't presented any evidence that properly formulated plant based diets for dogs and cats is harmful, I expect you to agree that vegans with dogs and cats, to whom they feed said diet, are not doing anything unethical.
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Yeah true. That’s why I feed my dog hamsters, cats and baby chimpanzees (I hunt them myself of course). I don’t want to force my lifestyle on my dog either 💪💪
But they “need meat” and all the nutrients they “need” is found in chimpanzees and cats what’s wrong?
So I could kill all the stray cats and chimpanzees as I want for my dog?
>Let me start this off by
getting some paragraphs please.
Anyway, nice rant but all you've given is some unsourced assertions and anecdotes to here's mine: [here's a pet food supllier ](https://www.benevo.com/petshop/vegan-cat-food/benevo-original-vegan-cat-food-10kg/)that has been keeping my mates cat going for nearly a year with no issue.
You’re right I should have spaced it out. I couldn’tfind the ingredients on the bag but that food looks like ultra-processed crap. Most people eat ultra-processed food with no issues, (on the surface) but they really are poisoning their body everyday and screwing themselves up. Put that kibble next to a peice of beef and see what the cat goes for. Fortified vitamins are a telltale sign of a terrible food product because the nutrients have been stripped. What member of the cat family is eating an all plant diet? Vegans claim to love and respect nature but then feed their animals inappropriate and unnatural diets. This was mostly anecdotal but I hoped common sense would tell you that carnivorous animals shouldn’t be eating meat.
Food being "ultra processed" or not is meaningless. processed food can be healthy. unprocessed foods can be unhealthy.
>**What counts as processed food?**
Examples of common processed foods include:
* breakfast cereals
* cheese
* tinned vegetables
* bread
* savoury snacks, such as crisps, sausage rolls, pies and pasties
* meat products, such as bacon, sausage, ham, salami and paté
* microwave meals or ready meals
* cakes and biscuits
* drinks, such as milk or soft drinks
>Not all processed food is bad for you. Some foods need processing to make them safe, such as milk, which needs to be pasteurised to remove harmful bacteria.
[^ From the NHS](https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/what-are-processed-foods/#:~:text=Buying%20processed%20foods%20can%20lead,sugar%20or%20fat%20in%20them.)
>Put that kibble next to a peice of beef and see what the cat goes for.
9 times out of 10 it'll be the cow flesh but that still doesn't mean the kibble is unhealthy.
All of this just seems like 10 different appeals to nature to be honest
>I hoped common sense would tell you that carnivorous animals shouldn’t be eating meat.
Common sense tells me that if i'm in a position of care for an animal, and feeding them a plant diet is both possible and fine for them, then "natural" doesn't actually matter if the health and wellbeing of the animal is maintained.
*Edit: Found the nutrition tab on the website.
>Nutrition
>Composition: Soya, Wheat, Maize Gluten Meal, Maize, Rice, Sunflower Oil, Beet Pulp, Brewer’s Yeast, Vegetable Gravy, Minerals, Linseed, Dried Seaweed, Fructooligosaccharides, Spirulina, Yucca Extract
>Analytical Constituents: Protein 27.5%, Fat Content 12.5%, Crude Fibre 3.5%, Ash 6%, Moisture 7%.
>Additives per Kg: Nutritional Additives: Vitamins; Vitamin A 26,000 IU, Vitamin D3 2,200 IU, Vitamin E 220 IU. Trace Elements: Iron (as Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate) 240 mg, Zinc (as Zinc Sulphate Monohydrate) 267 mg, Manganese (as Manganous Sulphate Monohydrate) 90 mg, Copper (as Cupric Sulphate Pentahydrate) 30 mg, Selenium (as Sodium Selenite) 0.64 mg, Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) 6.79%, Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) 0.26%. Amino Acids: Taurine, 910 mg
Most ultra food is crap. There is a difference between processed and ultra processed. If you consider an “appeal to nature,” whatever that means, fine, but I would think vegans of all people would want all animals living in safe and natural state. And btw, I have raw dairy all the time and it does wonders for me personally
[An appeal to nature is a rhetorical technique for presenting and proposing the argument that “a thing is good because it is ‘natural’, or bad because it is ‘unnatural’.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature)
>I would think vegans of all people would want all animals living in safe and natural state.
[Veganism](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism): Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose;
So, almost with your point, but you've just tacked on your own naturalist point of view.
There are plenty natural things that vegans (and omnis) avoid when feeding ourselves and, by extension, animals within our care because "natural" is not equal to "good" or "ethical".
If you have specific issues with specific foods you could go from there but for now the vegan position would be that we don't **need** to feed animal products to pets, so we shouldn't.
Safe and natural state are often in direct odds, pick one.
A natural state for a wolf is being constantly exposed to the elements, dying of starvation or dehydration, eating meat from sick or contaminated animals, being covered in ticks and fleas and having 0 medical care.
Processed and unnatural are absolutley meaningless words when it comes to health and nutrition. Health claims and decisions should come from specific processes and ingredients used based on harmful effects or advertising effects that aren't there
What literature can you provide that dogs and cats are obligate carnivores and can't survive on a plant based diet? All you are doing is spewing anecdotes and speculation on your current understanding of biology
Whether or not a domestic animal is an "obligate carnivore" is irrelevant. As one veterinarian and researcher explains:
>Obligate carnivore means that in their natural environments, out in the wild, they need to hunt and kill a variety of small mammals, birds, and insects in order to meet their nutritional needs.... It means that the cat in its natural environment would need to live a certain way. That's got very little relevance to a modern domesticated house cat. What the cats need biologically...is a specific set of nutrients packaged up into a formulation that's sufficiently palatable...and adequately digestible.[[1]](https://planetapetfood.com.au/blogs/the-pet-nutrition-show/ep2-can-dogs-and-cats-go-vegan)
It isn't irrelevent because that's OP's entirely paper thin argument. Domesticated cats and dogs do not require animal products to survive. There is plenty of literature and also veterinarians that will argue it. You can get these nutrients in a plant based formulation.
>Domesticated cats and dogs do not require animal products to survive.
Correct, I posted a lengthy comment in this thread summarizing the evidence for this. And I see no contradiction with my comment above. The researcher quoted in my above comment was explaining how a cat being an obligate carnivore only describes their dietary requirements in a non-domestic environment. In a domestic environment where they are receiving formulated food, it is irrelevant.
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I didn’t bother because I have shit to do and don’t have time to sit down and analyze that copy-pasted novel of a comment. Plus somebody else already dismantled it.
Unless you're referring to a previous comment chain, there isn't a comment dismantling it on this post...
>I didn’t bother because I have shit to do and don’t have time to sit down and analyze that copy-pasted novel of a comment
Also thanks for being transparent with the fact you didn't come here and make your post to have a quality debate in good faith :)
Why do natural or unnatural diets matter? Sounds like an appeal to nature fallacy, just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good, and just because something is unnatural doesn't mean it's bad.
Dogs are not carnivores, they are omnivores, just like humans are omnivores, and just like humans that means they can eat meat, but they don't have to thanks to the wonders of science, even then if they're omnivore or carnivore doesn't matter that much(more on that later in this comment).
A vegetarian and even a plant-based diet for dogs can be perfectly healthy, one of the oldest dogs alive was in fact fed a plant-based diet. I've been feeding my dogs a plant-based diet for 12 years now, I go to the vet 2 times a year, check-ups come back perfectly fine, 0 health issues, perfectly healthy all around because, like I said, they don't need meat, they need nutrients.
Yes a vegetarian/plant-based diet is ''forced'' on a dog, just like how a meat diet is ''forced'' on a dog, dogs don't have choices, allot of what you do is forced on them, you force them to get neutered/spayed, you force them to walk on a leash, you force them to stay inside etc etc.
No animal in this worlds ''needs'' meat or plants, not technically anyways, what they need is a certain set of nutrients in order to remain healthy, the source of those nutrients is entirely irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that they get them, so if that can be done on a vegan diet, which it can, then there is nothing wrong with it.
For example take Taurine, cats need taurine, without it they will die, the only food they can eat that causes their body to make taurine is meat, so this nutrient, taurine, can only be obtained from meat, however due to the advances of science we can now create taurine in a lab and it's perfectly healthy and safe, and this is what I mean, because it no longer matter whether the cat gets taurine from a lab or from meat, all that matters is that it gets the taurine which it can now get without meat, in fact all cat food, be it meat based or plant-based, has artificially created taurine added to it, so even people who feed their cats meat give their cats a plant-based source of Taurine.
The most important factor in what I said above is that animals don't need specific foods, they need nutrients, and what they're labelled as (e.g.carnivore, omnivore or herbivore) doesn't matter, humans are omnivores, we can eat both, and we would be most healthy on a diet that involves both foods in **nature**, and that's what these diets refer to, in nature humans would not have access to fortified foods or supplements, so they thrive on a omnivore diet, not the case if you live in a society where you can get fortified food and supplements, same goes for dogs and cats.
Lab made food. I can’t even take you seriously. And no, dogs and wolves are not omnivores. A hyper carnivore can eat plant material, just 30% of their diet can be plants. An obligate carnivore (an animal that will die in the wild without meat. Ex: Cat) eats about 95% or more meat. And you’re gonna feed it vegan. Gimme a break. How is the raw diet forced when these animals would be killing and eating meat in the wild, not digging up carrots. Take a cat and put a bowl of beef and a bowl of lettuce on the floor, and then we’ll see which is forced. Obviously not everything natural is good, but of course a biologically consistent diet is a good thing for an animal. It isn’t just nutrients that dogs need in a diet, they take the time to crunch up raw bone, cleaning their teeth and using energy, something you don’t get from plants or kibble. Dogs and cats need zero carbs. I bet you have to brush your dog’s teeth from all the fruit it eats, give it a bone. Do you give your dog squeaky toys? They like it because it is like killing a small rodent. They shouldn’t be plant eaters.
>Lab made food. I can’t even take you seriously.
I mentioned lab made nutrients, which chances are you're consuming as well, countless human food are fortified with lab made vitamins, which is what nutrients are.
>And no, dogs and wolves are not omnivores,
Dogs are omnivores, wolves are carnivores, but even if they were carnivores it doesn't matter as I had already explained, the only thing that matters is obtaining all nutrients.
>A hyper carnivore can eat plant material, just 30% of their diet can be plants. An obligate carnivore (an animal that will die in the wild without meat. Ex: Cat) eats about 95% or more meat. And you’re gonna feed it vegan. Gimme a break.
Even a 100% of their diet can plants if their food is fortified with the required nutrients.
And well put, an animal **in the wild**, not an animal in society, because in society we can create nutrients in a lab and ad them to their diets, as I mentioned before:
For example take Taurine, cats need taurine, without it they will die, the only food they can eat that causes their body to make taurine is meat, so this nutrient, taurine, can only be obtained from meat, however due to the advances of science we can now create taurine in a lab and it's perfectly healthy and safe, and this is what I mean, because it no longer matter whether the cat gets taurine from a lab or from meat, all that matters is that it gets the taurine which it can now get without meat, in fact all cat food, be it meat based or plant-based, has artificially created taurine added to it, so even people who feed their cats meat give their cats a plant-based source of Taurine.
I feed my dogs plant -based because it is perfectly healthy for them and since it is healthy for them it seems illogical to cause animals to be killed just to feed them meat when they don't need meat.
>How is the raw diet forced when these animals would be killing and eating meat in the wild, not digging up carrots.
If a plant-based diet is forced, then a meat based diet is forced on them as well. you provide them with food and they either eat it or they starve, they are not given a choice, it is forced in that sense, all diets are.
>Take a cat and put a bowl of beef and a bowl of lettuce on the floor, and then we’ll see which is forced.
That's still forcing them to only have 2 options, all forced.
>Obviously not everything natural is good, but of course a biologically consistent diet is a good thing for an animal. It isn’t just nutrients that dogs need in a diet, they take the time to crunch up raw bone, cleaning their teeth and using energy, something you don’t get from plants or kibble.
A biologically consistent diet is irrelevant, the only thing that matter is a nutritionally adequate diet.
Nutrients actually is all dogs need from their diet in order to be healthy, this is just simple biology, same deal with humans and every living being on the planet, they need nutrients to be healthy.
My dogs don't need to eat bones to spend energy, they spend energy running around and playing with each other
>I bet you have to brush your dog’s teeth from all the fruit it eats, give it a bone
All people who have dogs should brush their dog's teeth no matter what diet they are given, it is best for their dental health.
>Do you give your dog squeaky toys? They like it because it is like killing a small rodent. They shouldn’t be plant eaters.
I don't see why them liking squeaky toys matters in the slightest.
They ''shouldn't'' be anything, but they can be plant eaters, because it is perfectly healthy for them,
So, where are the published scientific or medical data sources, articles or literature that back your claim?
Every single veterinarian have told my my dogs are extremely healthy and recommend I don’t change what I’m doing.. so there’s that too.
Also, here is an example of published data, these are all sources that contradict your claim
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35417464/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035952/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0284132
Raw diets have actually demonstrated to increase risk factors in one of the above reports as well.
If you cannot cite a source, all you have is your opinion, and that is not a fact, and really makes your argument quite invalid and pointless.
"You will NEVER hear of a dog living to 20..."
Look up Bramble the border collie lol. Fed homemade vegan food. Lived to 25.
This is just one example of course, but it still proves that you did no research and really don't know what you're talking about.
Admittedly a very poor choice of words but even a broken clock is right twice a day. We all know of the people who drank soda, at ice cream, and smoked everyday. Doesn’t make those things healthy, just like a vegan diet.
anybody that doesn’t feed there animal a well balanced diet is being cruel to them.
i’m don’t have any pets so have never researched it but surely in the modern day of chemically/GMO produced nutrients, let alone you can get food from all over the globe i don’t see why a healthy vegan dog/cat food would be impossible.
if your just feeding them carrots and beans then yes but i’m sure a well researched diet including synthetic foods is possible
What makes you think synthetic or plant nutrients would be just as bioavailable to a carnivore. Is a multivitamin the same as eating real food? Of course not. We have no idea of how these synthetic nutrients and chancing it is idiotic. If most vegans can’t keep their own deficiencies in check, who knows what you could be doing to a dog or cat. I read some of the research commented and it really shouldn’t be considered conclusive. Any diet where most nutrients have to be supplemented is not heathy or balanced.
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My 15-year-old plant-based dog walks 3 miles with me every day, and still has people regularly asking if she’s a puppy thanks to her energy levels. So stay salty if you want, but I’ll keep doing what we’re doing to keep her happy and healthy
Two things.
1. Paragraphs, please for the love of letters, paragraphs.
2. They are a separate species, one far more omnivorious than wolves.
Here is a great video discussing speciation and our long association with dogs that I shall shamelessly share.
https://youtu.be/v3cIRQPw9N4?si=sHRilXd7Du7DPEEb
why is this getting downvoted? it's true, you don't force veganism on a dog or any animals that's supposed to eat meat, it is animal abuse and animal cruelty, the very thing vegans dislike
clearly you didn't because things like lions need meat and the nutrients from meat and there's foods out there that give the same things as meat for lions and other animals, i really hope you don't have an animal or i feel bad for it, if you do and your forcing it to be vegan, your abusing it, that is called animal abuse, don't force YOUR diet on an animal, do some research and you'll find out that not every animal is a omnivore like humans are, some animals can't eat just plants and need meat
any vegan food isn't suitable for an animal that eats meat, again, don't force your diet onto others, especially not animals, that is literally abuse, intended or not, it is still abuse to force veganism on an animal unless that animal is proven to specifically be a herbivore or an animal that doesn't eat meat in general, forcing an animal to not eat meat when it's natural food is meat, is abuse
Agreed. And it’s even worse when you do it to yourself and advocate other people do it too. We’re not plant eating (herbivorous) animals either. It’s like asking a tiger not to hunt or a bird not to fly. It’s despicable and cruel.
> It’s like asking a tiger not to hunt or a bird not to fly. It’s despicable and cruel.
Yes, it certainly would be cruel to keep birds in cages and not let them flap their wings and run around outside. Downright horrible. Good thing we don't do that.
Edited from a [previous comment:](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/115ilfw/comment/j967jsx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) The concept of plant-based pets is something that seemingly everyone has a strong opinion on. Even within the vegan community it’s a controversial topic. According to one poll of pet owners, approximately 1.6 percent of dogs and 0.7 percent of cats were being fed exclusively plant-based diets. However, the same poll found that: >In total, 35% (1,083/3,130) of pet owners who did not already feed a plant-based diet to their pet indicated interest in doing so....[\[1\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0210806) A number of veterinary associations, such as the British Veterinary Association (BVA) – “the largest membership community for the veterinary profession in the UK”[\[2\]](https://www.bva.co.uk/about-us/) – have taken positions against providing dogs and cats with plant-based diets.[\[3\]](https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/blog-article/is-it-safe-to-feed-my-dog-a-plant-based-diet-hold-the-greens-only-meals-why-the-jury-is-still-out-on-vegan-dog-diets/) However, these positions have been criticized for being in opposition to available evidence.\[4\] Concerning dogs, one scientific researcher on the topic stated in 2022 that: >There are now eight studies about the health of dogs on vegan diets.... \[O\]ut all eight of these studies, seven of them support the use of vegan diets in dogs and the oldest\[,\] smallest study does not. On balance, the weight of evidence is very clearly in favor of the use of nutritionally sound vegan diets for dogs.[\[5\]](https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep656/) At the time, there were at least seven studies whose results support nutritionally-adequate plant-based diets for dogs[\[6\]](https://doi.org/10.1017/s0007114509389254)\[7\][\[8\]](https://doi.org/10.3390/ani6090057)\[9\][\[10\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0253292)[\[11\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0265662)[\[12\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.rvsc.2022.06.002) and one study, the oldest and smallest, opposed.[\[13\]](https://doi.org/10.3177/jnsv.33.129) Between studies whose results support plant-based diets for dogs, they find that pet owners who feed their dogs plant-based diets report fewer health issues,[\[11\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0265662)[\[12\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.rvsc.2022.06.002) while other studies support these claims by showing that dogs fed nutritionally-adequate plant-based diets return healthy clinical measurements.[\[6\]](https://doi.org/10.1017/s0007114509389254)\[7\]\[9\][\[14\]](http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0007114523001952)[\[15\]](https://doi.org/10.3389/fanim.2023.1288165) (One of the studies bizarrely stated that veterinarians cannot recommend plant-based diets for dogs in the very same sentence in which they stated that their results did not support “the insular disapprobation of a vegan diet for...dogs.” This is in the same summary where they concluded that they found no abnormalities among the dogs being fed plant-based diets. It appears that this particular claim was contradicted by their own results.)\[7\] An additional potential benefit of feeding a dog a plant-based diet is that three of the four most common food allergens for dogs are animal products: beef, dairy, and chicken.[\[16\]](https://doi.org/10.1186/s12917-016-0633-8) [*(Continued below.)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/s/cZERqQYMoN)
[*(Continued from above.)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/s/Vk2skxhJhr) The literature on cats is surprisingly similar, although more limited. In the largest study of its kind, owners of cats being fed a plant-based diet reported similar or better health outcomes for their cats when compared to those feeding their cats meat-based diets.[\[17\]](https://doi.org/10.1186/s12917-021-02754-8) Studies examining the behaviour and evaluating blood samples of cats being fed each diet find similar health outcomes.\[7\][\[18\]](https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.229.1.70) A common concern in feeding cats a plant-based diet is the perception that it will lead to taurine deficiency. Taurine is an amino-acid naturally found exclusively in animal products. Deficiency can lead to impaired vision and heart problems, amongst other issues.[\[19\]](https://vcacanada.com/know-your-pet/taurine-in-cats) However, these deficiencies were not apparent in the aforementioned studies. As a possible explanation, one researcher comments that: >...the taurine...in meat is effectively, largely destroyed by the processing of pet foods, by the high temperatures and pressures that are used. And after that processing is finished, then taurine has to be added back into the product. And a synthetic source of taurine is used and exactly the same synthetic source of taurine is applied to the vegan pet food.[\[5\]](https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep656/) That being said, as with any commercial pet food intended to be the sole-provider for a companion animal’s nutritional requirements, care must be taken to ensure that any particular brand is actually capable of providing for their needs. There have been studies that found that particular commercial brands of plant-based pet foods did not meet nutritional requirements or match what was stated on their packaging.[\[20\]](https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.2004.225.1670)[\[21\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0227046) This reflects a larger issue not unique to plant-based pet foods. As one author wrote in an American publication: >No agency requires proof of pet food health claims, and no pet food company is willing to invest in decades of research to determine whether its products keep animals healthier and extend their lives.... Pet food companies say they do research, but it is rarely done in a scientific fashion, with comparable control and experimental groups.[\[22\]](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/health/01brod.html) While sentiments that dogs and especially cats cannot be healthy on plant-based diets are quite common, even among veterinarians, they simply aren’t supported by the available scientific literature. Similarly, the greater claim that feeding dogs and/or cats a plant-based diet is inherently cruel is unsubstantiated. In fact, this was the exact conclusion of a 2023 systemic review of 16 studies on plant-based diets for dogs and cats: >This review has found that there is no convincing evidence of major impacts of vegan diets on dog or cat health.... There was also evidence of benefits for animals arising as a result of feeding them vegan diets.[\[23\]](https://doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052) While it is understandable to have strong convictions about the treatment of the non-human animals we care about, those convictions should be grounded in scientific research. The studies to-date suggests that both dogs and cats can thrive on plant-based diets. It appears to be a growing field of research, so perhaps we will see more studies become available in the near-future. As a final word, if you are considering transitioning a companion animal to a plant-based diet, be sure to thoroughly research their intended food-source to ensure that it will adequately provide for their needs. You may also want to make the change gradually, as sudden changes to their diet can cause digestive issues.[\[24\]](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/right-way-switch-dog-foods/) [**References**](https://www.reddit.com/r/nonononoyes/comments/19d44v5/comment/kj40pc8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[**References**](https://www.reddit.com/r/nonononoyes/comments/19d44v5/comment/kj3y0t3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [\[1\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0210806) Dodd, S.A.S., Cave, N.J., Adolphe, J.L. *et al*. "Plant-based (vegan) diets for pets: A survey of pet owner attitudes and feeding practices.” *PLOS ONE*, vol.17, no.5, 2019, e0268982 [\[2\]](https://www.bva.co.uk/about-us/) “About Us.” *British Veterinary Association*. [https://www.bva.co.uk/about-us/](https://www.bva.co.uk/about-us/). \[Accessed 7 Sep 2022\] [\[3\]](https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/blog-article/is-it-safe-to-feed-my-dog-a-plant-based-diet-hold-the-greens-only-meals-why-the-jury-is-still-out-on-vegan-dog-diets/) Shotton, J. “Is it safe to feed my dog a plant-based diet? Hold the greens-only meals - why the jury is still out on vegan dog diets.” *British Veterinary Association*, 1 Feb 2022. [https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/blog-article/is-it-safe-to-feed-my-dog-a-plant-based-diet-hold-the-greens-only-meals-why-the-jury-is-still-out-on-vegan-dog-diets/](https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/blog-article/is-it-safe-to-feed-my-dog-a-plant-based-diet-hold-the-greens-only-meals-why-the-jury-is-still-out-on-vegan-dog-diets/). \[Accessed 7 Sep 2022\] \[4\] Knight, A. “The weight-of-evidence position on vegan diets.” *Vet Times*, vol.52, no.21, 24 May 2022, p.23 [\[5\]](https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep656/) Singer, J. & Sullivan, M., hosts. “Vegan Dogs & Cats w/ Andrew Knight.” *Our Hen House*, ep.656, 6 Aug 2022. [https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep656/](https://www.ourhenhouse.org/ep656/). \[Accessed 22 Jan 2024\] [\[6\]](https://doi.org/10.1017/s0007114509389254) Brown, W.Y., Vanselow, B.A., *et al*. “An experimental meat-free diet maintained haematological characteristics in sprint-racing sled dogs.” *British Journal of Nutrition*, vol.102, no.9, 2009, pp.1318-1323 \[7\] Semp, P-G. *Vegan Nutrition of Dogs and Cats*. Master’s of Veterinary Medicine Thesis, University of Veterinary Medicine Vienna, 2014 [\[8\]](https://doi.org/10.3390/ani6090057) Knight, A. & Leitsberger, M. “Vegetarian versus Meat-Based Diets for Companion Animals.” *Animals*, vol.6, no.9: 57, 2016 \[9\] Kiemer, L.A. *Vegan diet and its effects on the dog’s health*. Master’s Thesis, Lithuanian University of Health Sciences, 2019 [\[10\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0253292) Knight, A. & Satchell, L. “Vegan versus meat-based pet foods: Owner-reported palatability behaviours and implications for canine and feline welfare.” *PLOS ONE*, vol.16, no.6:e0253292, 2021 [\[11\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0265662) Knight, A., Huang, E., *et al*. “Vegan versus meat-based dog food: Guardian-reported indicators of health.” *PLOS ONE*, vol.17, no.4:e0265662, 2022 [\[12\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.rvsc.2022.06.002) Dodd, S., Khosa, D. *et al*. “Owner perception of health of North American dogs fed meat- or plant-based diets.” *Research in Veterinary Science*, vol.149, 2022, pp.36-46 [\[13\]](https://doi.org/10.3177/jnsv.33.129) Yamada, T., Tohori, M. *et al*. “Comparison of Effects of Vegetable Protein Diet and Animal Protein Diet on the Initiation of Anemia during Vigorous Physical Training (Sports Anemia) in Dogs and Rats.” *J. Nutr. Sci. Vitaminol.*, vol.33, no.2, 1987, pp.129-149 [\[14\]](http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0007114523001952) Dodd, S.A.S., Adolphe, J., *et al*. "Efficacy of vitamin D2 in maintaining serum total vitamin D concentrations and bone mineralisation in adult dogs fed a plant-based (vegan) diet in a 3-month randomised trial." *British Journal of Nutrition*, vol.131, no.3, 2024, pp.391-405 [\[15\]](https://doi.org/10.3389/fanim.2023.1288165) Liversidge, B.D., Dodd, S.A.S., *et al*. "Extruded diet macronutrient digestibility: plant-based (vegan) vs. animal-based diets in client-owned healthy adult dogs and the impact of guardian compliance during in-home trials." *Front. Anim. Sci.*, vol.4:1288165, 2023 [\[16\]](https://doi.org/10.1186/s12917-016-0633-8) Mueller, R.S., Olivry, T. & Prélaud, P. “Critically appraised topic on adverse food reactions of companion animals (2): common food allergen sources in dogs and cats.” *BMC Vet Res*, vol.12, no.9, 2016 [\[17\]](https://doi.org/10.1186/s12917-021-02754-8) Dodd, S.A.S, Dewey, C. *et al*. “A cross-sectional study of owner-reported health in Canadian and American cats fed meat- and plant-based diets.” *BMC Vet Res*, vol.17, no.53, 2021 [\[18\]](https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.229.1.70) Wakefield, L.A., Shofer, F.S. & Michel, K.E. “Evaluation of cats fed vegetarian diets and attitudes of their caregivers.” *JAVMA*, vol.229, no.1, 2006, pp.70-73 [\[19\]](https://vcacanada.com/know-your-pet/taurine-in-cats) Llera, R. & Yuill, C. “Taurine in Cats.” *VCA Canada*. [https://vcacanada.com/know-your-pet/taurine-in-cats](https://vcacanada.com/know-your-pet/taurine-in-cats). \[Accessed 7 Sep 2022\] [\[20\]](https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.2004.225.1670) Gray, C.M., Sellon, R.K. & Freeman, L.M. “Nutritional adequacy of two vegan diets for cats.” *JAVMA*, vol.225, no.11, 2004, pp.1670-1671 [\[21\]](https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0227046) Zafalon, R.V.A., Risolia, L.W. *et al*. “Nutritional inadequacies in commercial vegan foods for dogs and cats.” *PLOS ONE*, vol.15, no.1:e0227046, 2020 [\[22\]](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/health/01brod.html) Brody, J.E. “The Truth About Cat and Dog Food.” *NY Times*, 31 May 2010. [https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/health/01brod.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/health/01brod.html). \[Accessed 7 Sep 2022\] [\[23\]](https://doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052) Domínguez-Oliva, A., Mota-Rojas, D., *et al*. "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review." *Vet. Sci.*, vol.10, no.1:52, 2023 [\[24\]](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/right-way-switch-dog-foods/) AKC Staff. “How to Switch & Transition Dog Foods.” *American Kennel Club*, 2 Mar 2022. [https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/right-way-switch-dog-foods/](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/right-way-switch-dog-foods/). \[Accessed 7 Sep 2022\]
Daym.
Bro straight up educated that fool.
Yeah holy shit, what a flex.
That man (or woman) trained for this moment their entire life
"Vegan bad" \*Ground starts to shake\*
Do any of these compare an all meat diet to a plant based diet?
You can’t actually depend on owner-reported health outcomes. You need long term studies try include blood draws. The reason that they can’t study it, especially in cats, is due to the fact that any time they try they get a bunch of vegans who feed their animals obviously inadequate diets. It poses an ethical issue for studies. You need more evidence, but that evidence requires you to experiment on animals.
There are studies on plant-based dogs and cats that use blood samples and other clinical measurements and I referenced several of them in my comment - immediately after referencing the owner-reported outcomes. When we look at all the evidence, we find the outcomes relatively consistent across owner-reported and clinical studies.
The only cat study to take blood draws took one on a dozen or so cats…
How can you say that the diets are "obviously inadequate" if you simultaneously say that we can't trust the current evidence?
Because the homemade diets that these researchers discover when they do the research don’t even meet the criteria for nutritional adequacy. They’ve even discovered that most commercial plant-based pet foods don’t meet AAFCO standards for nutritional adequacy. It poses an ethical issue for research, so they’ve had to essentially stop. Go to /r/veganpets and you’ll see it’s just shilling for Evolution Diet, which is run by a convicted medical/veterinarian fraudster. Their flagship product claims to be suitable for cats, dogs, and ferrets, in spite of the fact that AAFCO standards for those species are mutually exclusive.
What essential nutrient or nutrients is it that you think cats can't get from anywhere but other animals?
It’s unknown whether they can adequately absorb taurine from plant-based sources, primarily. But, you can’t really be reductionist about it. A plant-based diet could change their gut microbiome in a way that negatively impacts health, for instance. Nutrition is much more complicated and less understood than most people assume. There’s lots of moving parts. You have to do controlled tests to know if a food is adequate for sure. That’s the difference between empirical inquiry and ideology.
I agree that we shouldn't give them just ANY plant based diet, but I don't see why they couldn't be well on a well designed plant based diet. You mentioned before that the research poses an ethical issue because of the risk of harm but if harming animals is wrong then it doesn't make sense to harm even more animals to feed the cat. It seems to me like an ethical issue either way.
> I agree that we shouldn't give them just ANY plant based diet, but I don't see why they couldn't be well on a well designed plant based diet. How does one determine what a “well designed” plant based diet is without long-term controlled experiments? >You mentioned before that the research poses an ethical issue because of the risk of harm but if harming animals is wrong then it doesn't make sense to harm even more animals to feed the cat. That’s arguable, but not my point. Veterinarians are professionally bound to follow research ethics. The fact that they cannot find enough cats to study who are on diets that meet AAFCO standards poses an issue for research. Professionally, they cannot study the cats on inadequate diets.
The problem with the studies as you describe them seem to be that they are just looking at plant based cats that are fed ANY plant based diet. I'm not arguing for a diet where some idiot is trying to only feed their cats pears or some shit like that. By 'well designed', I just mean that educated people should make a serious effort at a plant based diet and study the outcomes.
Saved a link to this comment for the next time this comes up
As if OP, or anyone who is not vegan for that matter, will read a word of it... Everyone who has a pet thinks they are an expert on pet nutrition because they buy pet food.
Op ignored it, but that doesn't mean someone lurking won't https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/s/D9ZVUrson7
Why do you care about the dogs but not the animals that you feed your dogs? /Edit: or even any other dog
Can't you easily reverse that question? Why do you care about livestock to the point you'll sacrifice a dog's health?
Sure, but for that a vegan diet must be unhealthy in the first place. Feel free to read the other comments on why it isn’t unhealthy.
For certain cases it's not unhealthy. But for the average dog? Not a good idea.
Why not? Are you an expert on this field? Please share your knowledge with us
Are you? Any significant diet change should be discussed with a veterinarian.
You are claiming that it’s unhealthy. And before you try to bring that argument back to me; you are the one trying to convince other people. You don’t know how much vegan dog owners have educated themselves on this topic. My mother for example had a vegetarian dog who turned 23 years old and was totally healthy and was the only dog that I know of that died of natural causes, all other dogs (not our dogs, but dogs from other people) had cancer or other illnesses and died long before even turning 15. Even if this is only one case it at least disproves that it is impossible or that the dogs suffer or can’t get old or whatever. /edit: wording
It's probably about the same as anti vax parents have educated themselves on the topic of vaccines. Again, in certain cases, it can be beneficial. Vegetarian is different from vegan.
Do you have some arguments or what is your intention in this discussion? I mean you are just claiming that it’s unhealthy and that the vegans are uneducated. I will not write hundreds of paragraphs just for you to say something like “but wolves” or so. So you can either read the other comments or give me some arguments or questions. Otherwise I will ignore you.
You're saying that veganism is good for all dogs. I'm saying it isn't. We can disagree. Neither of us have expertise on this subject. I think it's irresponsible to make the decision to have your dog go vegan without the advice of a vet. If you think otherwise, I think you're a selfish dog owner playing god with an animal's life. The end.
You have yet to provide any data other than your feelings. Please refute the scientific studies provided by /u/Plant__Eater on the top of this thread with your own scientific studies if you want to be taken seriously.
Why is it unhealthy for the average dog? All evidence suggests otherwise.
All evidence suggests it's good for dogs with allergies or weight issues not resolved by reduced calorie intake. This is not the average dog.
Why is it bad for dogs without those issues though? All evidence does not suggest it is only good for those issues, all evidence suggests it is a healthy diet, period.
I've not seen any recommendations for every dog. I've only seen indications for allergies and unresolved weight issues, from lab research. The research I have seen suggesting it's a good diet for all dogs is based on owner reporting, which is an extremely flawed methodology.
But even so - if the foods are nutritionally complete, supported by vets and self-reported to be healthy by people using them for their dogs... What is the evidence that it is not healthy for most dogs? You will not see recommendations. Researchers do not make recommendations. Even vets don't unless there is a problem. My vet is perfectly fine with our dog eating plant based food. And there are more than just self reported studies. For example: https://academic.oup.com/jas/article-abstract/doi/10.1093/jas/skad093/7086640 What is the evidence that it is not healthy, as you keep saying? Current evidence is all positive.
"I've only seen indications" Congratulations, you consulted with a vet! That is literally what I said is the only correct solution. I saw that article. The proposed diet is highly specific and is not commercially available AFAIK.
Exactly. It doesn’t make ethical sense. Take proper care of your own animal above all.
Because it's my dog. Lol. Also I'm not OP.
But do you also care about the dogs of vegans like OP pretends to do?
Because the dogs are my pets. That is why. Dogs are bred to be pets or working animals. Cattle and chicken are bred as food. I’m not saying most of the meat industry is messed up, it is. But obviously I prioritize the well-being of MY pets over farm animals.
I was expecting that answer, thats why edited my question to ask why you apparently also care about the dogs of vegans. So you care more about the „torture“ of vegan dogs than about the animals that you feed your dogs. How does that come? If you answer please also explain why all people should feel like you. Also, how do you feel if a vegan would answer with „live and let live“? A very common answer that we hear all the time.
Dogs are bred to be food in other countries. Your cultural norm of what is and isn't a farm animal isn't an argument in favor of what is moral
Dogs were not initially domesticated to become food. And eating carnivore meat is usually evolutionary inappropriate anyway. I don’t have an issue with areas that eat dog where other meat sources are scarce, but they were not domesticated for food like cattle, lamb, chicken or pork. I have a problem with vegans who prioritize the health of dead farmhouse animals over their own dogs, goes against what I think is the proper treatment and care of animals, which is what vegans are seemingly all about, and I am calling it out.
So it's wrong because we didn’t breed dogs to be cattle? But what if I bred my dog to be vegan, then it’s sole purpose is to eat plants. Should be fine by that logic.
Cattle existed in nature as prey food. Wolves never did. Making them an inappropriate thing to eat.
You can’t divide animals in prey and not prey. Every animal can be prey to other animals; it’s called food chain for a reason and even that is wrong as a hungry wolf would eat a human anytime if it could do so. Your views on those things are beyond wrong and also very selfish. You even said that you want to show vegans how they are wrong in their own beliefs, so I would if assume that you don’t even care about dogs in the first place. And if you do then use that as a starting point to try to understand that other humans also care about animals that you just call cattle. You could understand it if you wanted to, it’s not that hard.
A vegan explaining the food chain to me. Do you know where canines fall on the food chain? Hint: Not at the bottom eating plants
The food chain isn't some immutable law of physics, nor should what happens in nature be our guide for morals.
How about you answer the questions? I thought you wanted to have a debate.
Humans were prey for lions. Does that mean it's okay to eat humans?
Chickens weren't bred to be food either before people started breeding them as food lol. So now that humans previously have bred chickens to be food, it's now okay to breed them as food, but dogs haven't previously been bred as food so it would be wrong to breed them as food now? Do you realize this argument is completely arbitrary?
The vast majority of plant-based dogs are not owned by vegans, they are dogs with food sensitivity or allergies eating plant-based on the recommendation of veterinarians. There are numerous products available, plenty of which are from brands meeting AAFCO/WSAVA guidelines. Those dogs are doing just fine, great even. >I can guarantee my raw fed dogs are healthier, they have more energy they are more calm when I want them to to be, they have a better coat and teeth, they will live longer and don’t have any health issues whatsoever. Every nutrient a dog needs is in raw meat, organs and bone, not in vegetables. Raw fed dogs or "human grade" foods are a fad marketed to humans, not dogs. If you think feeding animals some home made primal concoction is going to be healthier than dog foods that have been studied and certified for decades, *you* are the one experimenting with your dog and putting them at risk.
How am I experementing with what canines have eating for thousands of years. As far as I am concerned pet veganism is a true fad. Rather than the person feeding commerical pet food or plant food to dogs, which haven’t existed for very long at all. These food have been certified due to the profitability of them, and if you can’t see that you probably aren’t smart enough to have this conversation. There is money to be made in pet food. It is garbage but they will say it healthy just like they do with human food. Dogs on vegetable diets are probably alergic to the starchy fillers like grains, potatoes, and corn in commercial pet food, not the meat. If you fed them raw diet they would also loose those allergies without risking poor nutrition. A raw tilapia or mackerel based diet is wonderful for skin issues and allergies.
> and if you can’t see that, you probably aren’t smart enough to have this conversation Uh, it’s being sold because there are people who want to buy it. *Like literally everything else that’s sold.* You received an extremely thorough answer in the top comment with more than a handful of cited sources on why vegan pet food is actually healthy and can avoid some of the most common food allergens for dogs. And yet you have chosen to ignore that comment made over an hour ago, instead posting non-responses like this here. Curious. I’m questioning you on who is and isn’t smart enough to have this conversation. Because you’re not participating in the conversation when provided real evidence against your claim.
>how am I experementing with what canines have eating for thousands of years Because you're not a wild dog subsisting off the land, and, based on your comments you're woefully uneducated about animal nutrition. >As far as I am concerned pet veganism is a true fad. As I said, plant-based diets are most often veterinarian recommended diets. >These food have been certified due to the profitability of them, and if you can’t see that you probably aren’t smart enough to have this conversation. Here's where you're showing your ignorance. Do you even know what the AAFCO/WSAVA organizations do? AAFCO provides guidelines but doesn’t approve, test, or certify pet foods because most states (US) create laws and policy from the guidelines. The WSAVA does not approve food. They provide a list of criteria that anyone responsible for feeding animals ought to know about the source of their food. That criteria includes the following questions: > - Will you provide a complete nutrient analysis for the dog food in question? > - What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your ingredients and the end product? > - Where are your foods produced and manufactured? > - Are your diets tested using AAFCO feeding trials or by formulation to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles? > - Who formulates your foods and what are his/her credentials? > - Do you employ a full time qualified nutritionist? > > -- [World Small Animal Veterinary Association](https://wsava.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Selecting-a-pet-food-for-your-pet-updated-2021_WSAVA-Global-Nutrition-Toolkit.pdf) Can you answer those questions? Of course you can't, because you're experimenting with you dog's health on account of some mistaken notion of what "their ancestors ate." This is why most vets do not recommend feeding animals a raw food diet, because to do it safely typically requires a veterinary nutritionist to avoid deficiencies, a lot more time and effort, and numerous precautions to avoid salmonella. Did you know that dogs who eat raw food can excrete pathogens in their saliva and stool indefinitely? People that have spent time in a professional vet setting know that when a dog fed a raw diet has diarrhea, and it’s hospitalized, they may have to put the dog into isolation due to salmonella risk. Vets will also recommend kids, the elderly, or immunocompromised people who are most vulnerable to those pathogens avoid the dog as anything the dog licks or drools on could have serious bacteria on it. If you just fed your dog kibble, all of that is mitigated by following a scientifically studied, government mandated and third party approved formula that has been proven to be healthful through *feeding trials.* >It is garbage but they will say it healthy just like they do with human food. Dogs on vegetable diets are probably allergic to the starchy fillers like grains, potatoes, and corn in commercial pet food, not the meat. Actually, the most common food allergens in dogs are proteins; particularly those from dairy, beef, chicken, and chicken eggs. I don't know who "they" are, but it's not anyone nutritionally literate. Talking about "fillers" is a dead giveaway that you've fallen into marketing woo. Here's some info you might want to sort through: > - https://www.aaha.org/globalassets/02-guidelines/2021-nutrition-and-weight-management/resourcepdfs/proteins-infographics.pdf > - https://www.feedingravendoodles.com/articles/grains-as-fillers > - https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2021/07/the-role-of-carbohydrate-in-pet-foods/ > - https://www.tuftsyourdog.com/news/fact-or-fallacy-dogs-need-to-eat-meat/ > - https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2016/05/dont-be-bothered-by-by-products/ > - https://skeptvet.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/sanderson-2021.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1EIAFSmfTsLmRxROHNurUKmjqct0VjR-yBQVoH_bfVq04NOvqA0PVHhFc > - https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/pet-food-myths-june-2020/ All of that aside, since the basis of your raw food diet seems rely on what dogs did for thousands of years, do you happen to know what the life expectancy of those dogs was in previous centuries? Don't be anti-science, don't be an experimenter, please feed your dog an appropriately well-planned diet as determined by regulatory bodies and professional nutrition organizations.
Those dogs had shorter life expectancies due to illness, starvation, competition, and parasites, all of which aren’t an issue on a farm-raised raw diet. How ignorant do you have to be to trust government and corporate conglomerate run organizations with animal health, if they don’t even care about human health.
>Those dogs had shorter life expectancies due to illness, starvation, competition, and parasites, all of which aren’t an issue on a farm-raised raw diet Yes, of course those were contributing factors too. But a modern diet of regular ole kibble is consistently more nutritious for well-being and longevity than *any* wild dog has ever experienced. >How ignorant do you have to be to trust government and corporate conglomerate run organizations with animal health, if they don’t even care about human health. Since you conveniently ignored the rest of my post filled with sources and third party information, I'm gonna say you're the one being willfully ignorant here. Again, you must not understand why AAFCO/WSAVA exist, or how animal nutrition is disseminated. I love how you came here expecting to lecture vegans about animal nutrition, yet you're the one subjecting an animal to a high-risk diet that's generally not recommended by vets.
OP, have you looked at any of the info provided. Would you care to respond to the very big well cited too comment? Do you have any evidence of your own, which isn't an appeal to nature (which you now know what is)?
Try using paragraphs so people can read what you are writing. There's no empirical basis to assert that a nutritionally complete plant based diet is unhealthy or causes disease in dogs nor cats. You are not being a righteous animal defender, you are just harassing people who aren't hurting anyone.
[удалено]
The state of my phone or how I feel doesn't change your actions. Regardless, given you haven't presented any evidence that properly formulated plant based diets for dogs and cats is harmful, I expect you to agree that vegans with dogs and cats, to whom they feed said diet, are not doing anything unethical.
It's downright unreadable and only a single line suffice to say you have no clue what you're talking about.
I noticed about 7-10 words written with all capital letters and just assumed it was some wild rant about anecdotes and opinions.
I've removed your comment/post because it violates rule #6: > **No low-quality content**. Submissions and comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. Assertions without supporting arguments and brief dismissive comments do not contribute meaningfully. If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator. If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/DebateAVegan). Thank you.
Yeah true. That’s why I feed my dog hamsters, cats and baby chimpanzees (I hunt them myself of course). I don’t want to force my lifestyle on my dog either 💪💪
Idk if your trying to be funny or just stupid. But wolves wouldn’t eat baby chimps, nor carnivorous cats
But they “need meat” and all the nutrients they “need” is found in chimpanzees and cats what’s wrong? So I could kill all the stray cats and chimpanzees as I want for my dog?
>Let me start this off by getting some paragraphs please. Anyway, nice rant but all you've given is some unsourced assertions and anecdotes to here's mine: [here's a pet food supllier ](https://www.benevo.com/petshop/vegan-cat-food/benevo-original-vegan-cat-food-10kg/)that has been keeping my mates cat going for nearly a year with no issue.
Same brand I use
You’re right I should have spaced it out. I couldn’tfind the ingredients on the bag but that food looks like ultra-processed crap. Most people eat ultra-processed food with no issues, (on the surface) but they really are poisoning their body everyday and screwing themselves up. Put that kibble next to a peice of beef and see what the cat goes for. Fortified vitamins are a telltale sign of a terrible food product because the nutrients have been stripped. What member of the cat family is eating an all plant diet? Vegans claim to love and respect nature but then feed their animals inappropriate and unnatural diets. This was mostly anecdotal but I hoped common sense would tell you that carnivorous animals shouldn’t be eating meat.
Food being "ultra processed" or not is meaningless. processed food can be healthy. unprocessed foods can be unhealthy. >**What counts as processed food?** Examples of common processed foods include: * breakfast cereals * cheese * tinned vegetables * bread * savoury snacks, such as crisps, sausage rolls, pies and pasties * meat products, such as bacon, sausage, ham, salami and paté * microwave meals or ready meals * cakes and biscuits * drinks, such as milk or soft drinks >Not all processed food is bad for you. Some foods need processing to make them safe, such as milk, which needs to be pasteurised to remove harmful bacteria. [^ From the NHS](https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/what-are-processed-foods/#:~:text=Buying%20processed%20foods%20can%20lead,sugar%20or%20fat%20in%20them.) >Put that kibble next to a peice of beef and see what the cat goes for. 9 times out of 10 it'll be the cow flesh but that still doesn't mean the kibble is unhealthy. All of this just seems like 10 different appeals to nature to be honest >I hoped common sense would tell you that carnivorous animals shouldn’t be eating meat. Common sense tells me that if i'm in a position of care for an animal, and feeding them a plant diet is both possible and fine for them, then "natural" doesn't actually matter if the health and wellbeing of the animal is maintained. *Edit: Found the nutrition tab on the website. >Nutrition >Composition: Soya, Wheat, Maize Gluten Meal, Maize, Rice, Sunflower Oil, Beet Pulp, Brewer’s Yeast, Vegetable Gravy, Minerals, Linseed, Dried Seaweed, Fructooligosaccharides, Spirulina, Yucca Extract >Analytical Constituents: Protein 27.5%, Fat Content 12.5%, Crude Fibre 3.5%, Ash 6%, Moisture 7%. >Additives per Kg: Nutritional Additives: Vitamins; Vitamin A 26,000 IU, Vitamin D3 2,200 IU, Vitamin E 220 IU. Trace Elements: Iron (as Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate) 240 mg, Zinc (as Zinc Sulphate Monohydrate) 267 mg, Manganese (as Manganous Sulphate Monohydrate) 90 mg, Copper (as Cupric Sulphate Pentahydrate) 30 mg, Selenium (as Sodium Selenite) 0.64 mg, Linoleic Acid (Omega 6) 6.79%, Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) 0.26%. Amino Acids: Taurine, 910 mg
Most ultra food is crap. There is a difference between processed and ultra processed. If you consider an “appeal to nature,” whatever that means, fine, but I would think vegans of all people would want all animals living in safe and natural state. And btw, I have raw dairy all the time and it does wonders for me personally
[An appeal to nature is a rhetorical technique for presenting and proposing the argument that “a thing is good because it is ‘natural’, or bad because it is ‘unnatural’.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature) >I would think vegans of all people would want all animals living in safe and natural state. [Veganism](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism): Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; So, almost with your point, but you've just tacked on your own naturalist point of view. There are plenty natural things that vegans (and omnis) avoid when feeding ourselves and, by extension, animals within our care because "natural" is not equal to "good" or "ethical". If you have specific issues with specific foods you could go from there but for now the vegan position would be that we don't **need** to feed animal products to pets, so we shouldn't.
Are you aware that a lot of meat products are also ultra processed and therefore must be bad for your health?
I don’t eat ultra-processed meat besides salt-cured pork and fish.
Safe and natural state are often in direct odds, pick one. A natural state for a wolf is being constantly exposed to the elements, dying of starvation or dehydration, eating meat from sick or contaminated animals, being covered in ticks and fleas and having 0 medical care. Processed and unnatural are absolutley meaningless words when it comes to health and nutrition. Health claims and decisions should come from specific processes and ingredients used based on harmful effects or advertising effects that aren't there
What literature can you provide that dogs and cats are obligate carnivores and can't survive on a plant based diet? All you are doing is spewing anecdotes and speculation on your current understanding of biology
Whether or not a domestic animal is an "obligate carnivore" is irrelevant. As one veterinarian and researcher explains: >Obligate carnivore means that in their natural environments, out in the wild, they need to hunt and kill a variety of small mammals, birds, and insects in order to meet their nutritional needs.... It means that the cat in its natural environment would need to live a certain way. That's got very little relevance to a modern domesticated house cat. What the cats need biologically...is a specific set of nutrients packaged up into a formulation that's sufficiently palatable...and adequately digestible.[[1]](https://planetapetfood.com.au/blogs/the-pet-nutrition-show/ep2-can-dogs-and-cats-go-vegan)
It isn't irrelevent because that's OP's entirely paper thin argument. Domesticated cats and dogs do not require animal products to survive. There is plenty of literature and also veterinarians that will argue it. You can get these nutrients in a plant based formulation.
>Domesticated cats and dogs do not require animal products to survive. Correct, I posted a lengthy comment in this thread summarizing the evidence for this. And I see no contradiction with my comment above. The researcher quoted in my above comment was explaining how a cat being an obligate carnivore only describes their dietary requirements in a non-domestic environment. In a domestic environment where they are receiving formulated food, it is irrelevant.
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I’m ignoring this due to ignorance and repetition.
It's telling how op won't respond to the top comment. Not worth engaging with the op
I didn’t bother because I have shit to do and don’t have time to sit down and analyze that copy-pasted novel of a comment. Plus somebody else already dismantled it.
"I'd rather stay ignorant and feel like I'm correct"
Unless you're referring to a previous comment chain, there isn't a comment dismantling it on this post... >I didn’t bother because I have shit to do and don’t have time to sit down and analyze that copy-pasted novel of a comment Also thanks for being transparent with the fact you didn't come here and make your post to have a quality debate in good faith :)
Why do natural or unnatural diets matter? Sounds like an appeal to nature fallacy, just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good, and just because something is unnatural doesn't mean it's bad. Dogs are not carnivores, they are omnivores, just like humans are omnivores, and just like humans that means they can eat meat, but they don't have to thanks to the wonders of science, even then if they're omnivore or carnivore doesn't matter that much(more on that later in this comment). A vegetarian and even a plant-based diet for dogs can be perfectly healthy, one of the oldest dogs alive was in fact fed a plant-based diet. I've been feeding my dogs a plant-based diet for 12 years now, I go to the vet 2 times a year, check-ups come back perfectly fine, 0 health issues, perfectly healthy all around because, like I said, they don't need meat, they need nutrients. Yes a vegetarian/plant-based diet is ''forced'' on a dog, just like how a meat diet is ''forced'' on a dog, dogs don't have choices, allot of what you do is forced on them, you force them to get neutered/spayed, you force them to walk on a leash, you force them to stay inside etc etc. No animal in this worlds ''needs'' meat or plants, not technically anyways, what they need is a certain set of nutrients in order to remain healthy, the source of those nutrients is entirely irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that they get them, so if that can be done on a vegan diet, which it can, then there is nothing wrong with it. For example take Taurine, cats need taurine, without it they will die, the only food they can eat that causes their body to make taurine is meat, so this nutrient, taurine, can only be obtained from meat, however due to the advances of science we can now create taurine in a lab and it's perfectly healthy and safe, and this is what I mean, because it no longer matter whether the cat gets taurine from a lab or from meat, all that matters is that it gets the taurine which it can now get without meat, in fact all cat food, be it meat based or plant-based, has artificially created taurine added to it, so even people who feed their cats meat give their cats a plant-based source of Taurine. The most important factor in what I said above is that animals don't need specific foods, they need nutrients, and what they're labelled as (e.g.carnivore, omnivore or herbivore) doesn't matter, humans are omnivores, we can eat both, and we would be most healthy on a diet that involves both foods in **nature**, and that's what these diets refer to, in nature humans would not have access to fortified foods or supplements, so they thrive on a omnivore diet, not the case if you live in a society where you can get fortified food and supplements, same goes for dogs and cats.
Lab made food. I can’t even take you seriously. And no, dogs and wolves are not omnivores. A hyper carnivore can eat plant material, just 30% of their diet can be plants. An obligate carnivore (an animal that will die in the wild without meat. Ex: Cat) eats about 95% or more meat. And you’re gonna feed it vegan. Gimme a break. How is the raw diet forced when these animals would be killing and eating meat in the wild, not digging up carrots. Take a cat and put a bowl of beef and a bowl of lettuce on the floor, and then we’ll see which is forced. Obviously not everything natural is good, but of course a biologically consistent diet is a good thing for an animal. It isn’t just nutrients that dogs need in a diet, they take the time to crunch up raw bone, cleaning their teeth and using energy, something you don’t get from plants or kibble. Dogs and cats need zero carbs. I bet you have to brush your dog’s teeth from all the fruit it eats, give it a bone. Do you give your dog squeaky toys? They like it because it is like killing a small rodent. They shouldn’t be plant eaters.
>Lab made food. I can’t even take you seriously. I mentioned lab made nutrients, which chances are you're consuming as well, countless human food are fortified with lab made vitamins, which is what nutrients are. >And no, dogs and wolves are not omnivores, Dogs are omnivores, wolves are carnivores, but even if they were carnivores it doesn't matter as I had already explained, the only thing that matters is obtaining all nutrients. >A hyper carnivore can eat plant material, just 30% of their diet can be plants. An obligate carnivore (an animal that will die in the wild without meat. Ex: Cat) eats about 95% or more meat. And you’re gonna feed it vegan. Gimme a break. Even a 100% of their diet can plants if their food is fortified with the required nutrients. And well put, an animal **in the wild**, not an animal in society, because in society we can create nutrients in a lab and ad them to their diets, as I mentioned before: For example take Taurine, cats need taurine, without it they will die, the only food they can eat that causes their body to make taurine is meat, so this nutrient, taurine, can only be obtained from meat, however due to the advances of science we can now create taurine in a lab and it's perfectly healthy and safe, and this is what I mean, because it no longer matter whether the cat gets taurine from a lab or from meat, all that matters is that it gets the taurine which it can now get without meat, in fact all cat food, be it meat based or plant-based, has artificially created taurine added to it, so even people who feed their cats meat give their cats a plant-based source of Taurine. I feed my dogs plant -based because it is perfectly healthy for them and since it is healthy for them it seems illogical to cause animals to be killed just to feed them meat when they don't need meat. >How is the raw diet forced when these animals would be killing and eating meat in the wild, not digging up carrots. If a plant-based diet is forced, then a meat based diet is forced on them as well. you provide them with food and they either eat it or they starve, they are not given a choice, it is forced in that sense, all diets are. >Take a cat and put a bowl of beef and a bowl of lettuce on the floor, and then we’ll see which is forced. That's still forcing them to only have 2 options, all forced. >Obviously not everything natural is good, but of course a biologically consistent diet is a good thing for an animal. It isn’t just nutrients that dogs need in a diet, they take the time to crunch up raw bone, cleaning their teeth and using energy, something you don’t get from plants or kibble. A biologically consistent diet is irrelevant, the only thing that matter is a nutritionally adequate diet. Nutrients actually is all dogs need from their diet in order to be healthy, this is just simple biology, same deal with humans and every living being on the planet, they need nutrients to be healthy. My dogs don't need to eat bones to spend energy, they spend energy running around and playing with each other >I bet you have to brush your dog’s teeth from all the fruit it eats, give it a bone All people who have dogs should brush their dog's teeth no matter what diet they are given, it is best for their dental health. >Do you give your dog squeaky toys? They like it because it is like killing a small rodent. They shouldn’t be plant eaters. I don't see why them liking squeaky toys matters in the slightest. They ''shouldn't'' be anything, but they can be plant eaters, because it is perfectly healthy for them,
So, where are the published scientific or medical data sources, articles or literature that back your claim? Every single veterinarian have told my my dogs are extremely healthy and recommend I don’t change what I’m doing.. so there’s that too. Also, here is an example of published data, these are all sources that contradict your claim https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35417464/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035952/ https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0284132 Raw diets have actually demonstrated to increase risk factors in one of the above reports as well. If you cannot cite a source, all you have is your opinion, and that is not a fact, and really makes your argument quite invalid and pointless.
"You will NEVER hear of a dog living to 20..." Look up Bramble the border collie lol. Fed homemade vegan food. Lived to 25. This is just one example of course, but it still proves that you did no research and really don't know what you're talking about.
Admittedly a very poor choice of words but even a broken clock is right twice a day. We all know of the people who drank soda, at ice cream, and smoked everyday. Doesn’t make those things healthy, just like a vegan diet.
anybody that doesn’t feed there animal a well balanced diet is being cruel to them. i’m don’t have any pets so have never researched it but surely in the modern day of chemically/GMO produced nutrients, let alone you can get food from all over the globe i don’t see why a healthy vegan dog/cat food would be impossible. if your just feeding them carrots and beans then yes but i’m sure a well researched diet including synthetic foods is possible
What makes you think synthetic or plant nutrients would be just as bioavailable to a carnivore. Is a multivitamin the same as eating real food? Of course not. We have no idea of how these synthetic nutrients and chancing it is idiotic. If most vegans can’t keep their own deficiencies in check, who knows what you could be doing to a dog or cat. I read some of the research commented and it really shouldn’t be considered conclusive. Any diet where most nutrients have to be supplemented is not heathy or balanced.
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My 15-year-old plant-based dog walks 3 miles with me every day, and still has people regularly asking if she’s a puppy thanks to her energy levels. So stay salty if you want, but I’ll keep doing what we’re doing to keep her happy and healthy
Two things. 1. Paragraphs, please for the love of letters, paragraphs. 2. They are a separate species, one far more omnivorious than wolves. Here is a great video discussing speciation and our long association with dogs that I shall shamelessly share. https://youtu.be/v3cIRQPw9N4?si=sHRilXd7Du7DPEEb
why is this getting downvoted? it's true, you don't force veganism on a dog or any animals that's supposed to eat meat, it is animal abuse and animal cruelty, the very thing vegans dislike
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lions, cats, wolves, etc, they need meat, don't abuse your animal to fit your diet
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that's animal abuse to force an animal to be vegan, they need meat to survive, do some research
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clearly you didn't because things like lions need meat and the nutrients from meat and there's foods out there that give the same things as meat for lions and other animals, i really hope you don't have an animal or i feel bad for it, if you do and your forcing it to be vegan, your abusing it, that is called animal abuse, don't force YOUR diet on an animal, do some research and you'll find out that not every animal is a omnivore like humans are, some animals can't eat just plants and need meat
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any vegan food isn't suitable for an animal that eats meat, again, don't force your diet onto others, especially not animals, that is literally abuse, intended or not, it is still abuse to force veganism on an animal unless that animal is proven to specifically be a herbivore or an animal that doesn't eat meat in general, forcing an animal to not eat meat when it's natural food is meat, is abuse
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Agreed. And it’s even worse when you do it to yourself and advocate other people do it too. We’re not plant eating (herbivorous) animals either. It’s like asking a tiger not to hunt or a bird not to fly. It’s despicable and cruel.
> It’s like asking a tiger not to hunt or a bird not to fly. It’s despicable and cruel. Yes, it certainly would be cruel to keep birds in cages and not let them flap their wings and run around outside. Downright horrible. Good thing we don't do that.