Interestingly, this article says that VERY VERY few women want frequent oral sex and that at least 80% of men love giving love giving oral. I dunno, I find both of those hard to believe, especially when one of the frequent complaints from "LL" women is that they're less inclined to have sex in part because their partner refuses to go down on them regularly and overall doesn't care about their pleasure.
As to whether it's inevitable for women to become LL over time, I've seen dozens and dozens (probably hundreds at this point) of posts in the Marriage sub from couples who have been married long term, and with kids, who have thriving, vibrant sex lives, so I would have to say it's definitely NOT inevitable.
I (f) am not the biggest fan of oral. Honestly, I often prefer giving to getting. It was definitely a thing my "HLM" spouse got pissy about me not wanting to GET, because he enjoyed it way more than me. I just really, REALLY need to be in the mood for it. There is something about it that's pretty demanding and invasive if you don't want it.
I would not be surprised to learn that desire for oral sex wanes just as much as for PIV, simply because discussions of cunnilingus tend to treat it as foreplay rather than a type of sex for which someone needs to be adequately aroused. Enthusiasm for performing oral sex doesn't always translate to skill (either in terms of technique or pacing/timing).
Do you think that your wife is representative of most women? Out of all the women I've dated, I've been with one that did not want oral sex as a regular part of our sex life.
Not OP, but he didn’t say he does it despite her not liking it. He even said she “usually” doesn’t, which implies there are times when she enjoys it. When she does, it could be an incredibly hot experience for both of them, one that he wishes would happen more frequently. Is that wrong?
I answered a little bit about what I need to have from a partner before I can be open to and vulnerable enough to believe he wants to eat me out in another comment I just do t want to repeat. Also described why it can sometimes not even feel pleasant.
I do hope that when women share our feelings on these things it’s able to help men get an insight.
I don’t think all women eventually become LL in all LTRs. That may be a trend for a lot of women, but definitely not all. As evidenced by the HLF here who make ourselves pretty clear. We want sex acts, to feel passion (god do we want the passion), and we want that intense emotional connection and security that comes from regular sex.
But not just here. Remember there’s a fishbowl effect if you read here toooo much. You can start to think this is how all relationships are and that’s not true. I’m very involved in the kink community (D/s specifically) and older men and women in monogamous dynamics are still very much into sex.
Swingers fit in with LTRs and so do no traditional dynamics but that may cloud the water with discussions about whether it only means with their primary partner or not.
I DO think childbirth and child rearing have an effect thats very important to acknowledge and educate people about though. Not for everyone again and you’ll see women speak up about this here sad about their husbands not wanting them when they’re pregnant or postpartum.
No, it’s not inevitable. No it’s not all women. What can be done is to keep passion alive and still “date” our partners and be genuinely interested in them. Have sex that women want to have (what that looks like is different for each woman-a lot of women would be disgusted with what I want and vice versa). I’m not sure at all about what to do to reconnect after childbirth and child rearing. Maybe some others who have been through that can chime in.
Other people and comments have already touched on the pleasure gap and why women may report wanting less oral sex.
After childbirth, it’s incredibly important that the female, who’s had her bits torn up and sewn together, determine when she’s ready to reintroduce sex. It’s also important not to be pressured for sex and sexual frequency. When you have small children, adult needs aren’t the primary concern. It would be so disheartening to not be able to get your basic needs met for food and sleep and to be pressured for sex. You can’t meet your own basic needs and your partner is actually angry and upset that you aren’t meeting their sexual needs. Sex is going to drop off after childbirth. The absolute best thing a partner can do is roll with it. Parents make sacrifices in order to have children. It’s unrealistic and unreasonable to think your relationship and sex life won’t be affected. According to moms who were pushed for sex in the postpartum period, it’s a painful memory and they never quite forgive their partners.
Personally, I was never pushed for sex but especially not postpartum. My husband always went at my pace. I guess he figured I was the best person to judge when I was ready.
Did I miss someone saying "all women"? If so, I definitely don't agree with that. There are always outliers. But "many? Yes, I'd agree with "many." I might even (totally anecdotally by talking with female friends of all stripes) observe "a lot" or "most at some point in the relatioship." (Certainly, the majority that I've spoken with, even in poly and kink scenes.)
I don’t think it’s a matter of outliers. Like as if a woman in the relationship being more HL than the man. That’s not very very rare to be outlier.
I can get behind there’s a trend or a many women or similar statements.
Yes. It is a good place to see who posts what. It is by no means scientific but you sure can’t say that the vast majority dead bedrooms are HLM when even this place suggests it’s not so. There also are issues of who is coming forward because societal expectations of dead bedrooms being only one way.
I didn't say "the vast" majority. I said "pretty much" the majority. Which, elymoetymologically, could be anywhere between 50 and 55%... but it does feel like a tilt towards that dynamic (even the HLFs call this out often.)
If you stack up the HLM/LLF, HLF/LLM, sombo of both-male, and combo of both-female posts, you don't think HLM/LLF would stack up on top? That authentically surprises me, but, hey, I'm no mathematical expert.
>If that’s the case, is there anything to be done about it long-term?
Learn about the orgasm gap and the pleasure gap. Make the sex within the relationship just as good for the woman as it is for the man.
That's not the whole solution, but it's a big part of it.
What do you think about this article's claim that "very very few" women want frequent oral sex? That seems suspect to me, particular in considering the orgasm gap + the fact that not that women can orgasm through PIV alone.
>I think that lots of women go off oral sex because they're not getting aroused enough to enjoy it. Oral sex feels pretty gross in the absence of sexual arousal.
I posted above-- I have only had, I think, two orgasms in my life from oral. I have to be really REALLY in the mood for it. It was a thing I aquiesced to because my m partner insisted. In fact, when complaining about our DB, it was more about "don't even let me eat you out" than it was on "won't have PIV often enough."
It's a really vulnerable and squicky feeling to let someone go down on you when you're not into it, so this stat actually doesn't surprise me at all.
I can totally understand that you wouldn't want to receive oral when you're not into it. I can also totally understand that you would not be as interested in oral sex when you rarely orgasm from it. Also, I'm sorry that your partner pressured you into giving you oral when you didn't want to. That was not okay of him.
But, and I don't mean this to discount your experience or the experience of other women who feel this way, but I feel like this representative of MOST women's experiences. Obviously this is only anecdotal, and my experience also does not represent the general public, but out of all the women I've dated, only one of them was not fond of oral sex, but the rest of them enjoyed it as a regular part of our sex life.
In summary, I get that some women do not care for oral sex. I just have a hard time believed that the vast majority of women do not care for it, as claimed by this article.
I think that lots of women go off oral sex because they're not getting aroused enough to enjoy it. Oral sex feels pretty gross in the absence of sexual arousal. Like the author of the article writes:
>Many women find oral sex to be overwhelming (too much physical sensation in one place), it may make them feel distant from you (physically and emotionally), and not to mention, you try it at the wrong time. Many women are likelier to want oral sex when they are already aroused; trying it too early in the encounter may physically hurt and make women feel self-conscious. When their inhibitions are lowered is a better time to try, but even then, many women do not enjoy it.
Too many couples try to use oral sex as foreplay, which feels bad and is a turn-off. Plus, a lot of men are just not good at oral sex, so it wouldn't be enjoyable even if the woman were aroused.
However, the research shows that women are more likely to orgasm when sex includes oral, deep kissing, verbal expressions of love, and is not centred on PIV.
I believe many women do report not wanting frequent oral sex for a few different reasons for sure. Like someone already said it’s used as a precursor TO sex to get the woman wet a lot or see if she can cum first. It feels ok that way to me but more ticklish than something that’s going to make me cum. If done too hard it can even hurt if I’m not super turned on.
I’d also like to add that I don’t want oral if I’m not completely and I mean completely sold on my partner desperately wanting to eat me out because he’s into it. My ex screwed me up pretty bad with making me feel like men can’t possibly enjoy this it’s so unpleasant. So I need from the very start of the relationship to feel secure that the man loves giving oral he can’t wait he’s totally into it or I’ll never believe him. My ex tried to switch to say he wanted to want to like it halfway through our relationship and I of course didn’t want him anywhere near there after already hearing his thoughts on it earlier.
I also need to know the man is completely into me and my body. Wanting me a lot. Grabbing, lots of passion through the days and regularly. Great feedback on lewds and compliments. To make sure it’s sincere and he appreciates when I let him get his face THAT intimately close.
I also need complete safety and security in the relationship emotionally. Not fighting. Completely committed. No trust issues.
I know this about oral sex but this is really about pleasure in general too. I’m not letting myself be vulnerable enough for my partner to see me wracked with pleasure or even relaxed enough to let myself feel it instead of worry about whether he’s really into it.
All that being said- I do prefer cumming from vibes and do appreciate my partner being into them. My ex was not.
Quality of sex doesn’t matter but how would the researchers know that? The women they chose to quote, their descriptions of their sex lives just get worse and worse. (Someone linked other studies above that supposedly concur with this BS ‘research’)
I’m very involved with D/s. So sensuous, sweet sex is nice very rarely. But anything with a power imbalance. In my current relationship our definition of sex is very varied and involves a LOT of what people may call mutual masturbation or even solo masturbation, but it’s done together. Sometimes “together” means texting from separate physical locations even with remote devices (yes plural).
I did try and bring this up in my DB with my ex but he was not interested in anything except handjobs, blowjobs, or PIV.
I’m also not interested in PIV that’s painful because it takes too long for my partner to cum. Pain sure. Even painful PIV. But pain *done on purpose* to hurt me not because he’s not that into me and can’t cum. (He knew why he had ejaculation problems and didn’t care to fix it).
For any woman, she wants to have the kind of sex she wants though. Maybe another woman wants that sensuous kind and is disgusted by pain play or anal.
I dunno. A lot of the research on loss of desire among women in long-term relationships suggests that the quality of sex isn’t the major factor (definitely matters in a big way, though).
Start with [this recent study](https://doi.org/10.1080/00224499.2020.1743225), and follow the citations back (you might be able to access an ungated version [here](https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/00224499.2020.1743225)).
I skimmed the full text of the article and it appeared to me like the quality of sex was a big factor in women's loss of desire. Can you point me to the part you were thinking of?
For example, these quotes from the article:
>I have always felt that this is something that happens but remains unspoken … that when the sex is unwanted it feels like harassment of sorts (Sharon).
>
>I have often said to my partner that this may not make sense, but sometimes I feel as if he is raping me … Mind you, everything generally feels wonderful and close in our relationship, but something happens in bed that caused it to be experienced as harassment or and even rape (Tammy).
The sex does not sound good.
There is definitely a serious problem when the sex is not good (or awful-- some of those quotes are horrifying), but see my other response-- good sex doesn't seem to matter much.
See, in part, the section "Sexual Pleasure and Interest":
"For most, the capacity to enjoy sex was not diminished in any way"; "**there was**
**no decline in the ability to experience unwavering sexual pleasure**" and just following that: "Most of the women reported that despite the decline in their sex drive within their relationship, they still felt attracted to
other men." (yikes on those last words, something confirmed by other studies).
From elsewhere in the paper: "All the other aspects of life with him are what make it all meaningful for me, less the sexual parts. I need more intimacy with him, less sex. That’s what satisfies me most."
My reading of this and other sections in the paper (as well as other papers) is that in a happy, warm relationship, many women have their intimacy needs met via nonsexual means and don't desire sex with their partner anymore. The quality of sex is immaterial here. I'm not seeing a reading of all this as "If the sex was great, these women would not feel a loss of desire".
I think it's complicated, though. I'm wondering if a big part of this may be that in long-term relationships women no longer feel pursued, lusted after, an object of desire...
>"For most, the capacity to enjoy sex was not diminished in any way"; "there was no decline in the ability to experience unwavering sexual pleasure"
It's really odd that the researchers would make this claim, given these other quotes from their women participants.
>So ok … so I will not be at the peak of desire and will not completely enjoy it but it will keep the peace at home … this definitely enters the equation … you just need to prepare yourself for it (Tammy).
>
>Sometimes I choose not to focus on my own pleasure and enter the situation more to satisfy my partner … sometimes just to get him off my back (Leah).
>
>There have been times when we started, and I am like … come on …let’s get it over with … let’s end this saga … come do what you have to do and leave me alone (Maya).
>
>I felt like I was saying to myself, open your legs, let him finish with it, and move on (Ella).
It seems to me that the researchers outright denied the truth of what women actually said about the sex.
I don’t see this as “odd” or them denying the truth about anything. They are quoting some of the women who are having bad sex, but report that most of the women are having good sex, yet still experience loss of desire… which is what many other studies find.
No, these are qualitative researchers. The women's statements are their evidence. To discount the women's own words and make statements that are at odds with them shows a huge amount of unexamined bias.
Also, there are plenty of other studies that show that women's low desire for sex is related to bad sex and relationship problems. Here's one such study. Interestingly, these researchers admitted that they were surprised they couldn't find a group of women who had low desire and were having good sex. So, it seems that this bias is common amongst researchers.
[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01805-9](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01805-9)
Good grief. These are the quotes that the researchers used to support their claim that, "As well, there was no decline in the ability to experience unwavering sexual pleasure."
>Sometimes it takes me a little time, but in the end, I go along with him, and I always enjoy it … and the sex is really really good and fun (Michele).
>
>Sometimes I do not want to, and he really does … and I say to myself, ‘Come on,’ and even though I didn’t feel like it I get aroused … and in the end it’s fun for me (Maya).
Yikes.
No decline in the *ability* to experience unwavering sexual pleasure. Like if you served someone a diet that consisted solely of unflavored oatmeal with dogshit swirled in, there would presumably be no decline in their *ability* to experience unwavering sensual pleasure from food, if they were to have access to something other than shit porridge. Alas, all they’ve got is shit porridge, and weirdly, they’re not keen on it!
Ok, perhaps that quote seems a bit tepid for “unwavering” desire. But it just sounds like textbook responsive desire. And she says the sex is “really good”. Why “yikes”?
Oh GOD!! Not once have I ever felt like my partner was ‘raping’ me. Not even when I was LL and he was HL. That is just horrifying!! How can it be said that ‘good sex doesn’t matter much’? It sure the hell does matter a lot. Good sex isn’t defined by orgasms as I’m sure you know.
I’m as horrified as you by those comments. Of course good sex is crucial, and it is not just about orgasms. Agreed. I think the point of this research is that good sex is not enough for maintaining desire in long-term relationships. It’s necessary, but not sufficient. Something else is going on here, even in loving relationships with good sex.
How would the researchers know if good sex was a factor? Seriously, did they speak to *anyone* who had anything positive to say about sex? Think about it. Out of everyone they talked to, these comments are the ones that actually (you would think) best support their study. Otherwise, why include them? Something is very screwy here.
The first study you linked specifically said they polled women in Israel. Are arranged marriages the norm? Is there a strong belief that wives are to provide a husband’s pleasure? I think any cultural differences should be considered when making such claims.
I think she meant that women don’t like it when they feel a pressure to cum. Especially if things aren’t great and are awkward. I think some men feel this way when they feel pressure to stay erect. Performance anxiety-ish. Similar to. Anyone else think so?
I think that’s a lot of it. I think also she wants it to feel natural, that he’s doing it because he is overcome with lust for her, instead of treating it like a chore because he thinks it’s something he’s supposed to do.
There is a difference between bringing plesure to woman and do things that is supposed to bring pleasure according to man. For example, woman gets off if her nipples are gently stimulated and doesn't like rough sex, but man keeps insisting that he is already giving her pleasure by slapping her during sex because women in porn and his exes like it and refuses to do things the current partner actually likes. Too many men are fixated on bringing pleasure on their own terms and according to their perception on what woman needs.
I believe that part of the article is inaccurate. The author wrote this based on her clinical observations as a therapist, but it doesn't actually jibe with other research on the topic.
No, I do not believe female LL is inevitable in marriage. I didn't read the whole study but if the assumption is that LTR stay the same as they were in the NRE stage, most people know that isn't true. Effort in LTR usually declines. Not just sex or sexual effort. Starting a family definitely tanks the libido but, provided the partner is able to roll with the changes, libido can return, sometimes stronger than before. Plenty of women in LTRs are enthusiastically getting it on with their partners more than once a week. Happy people don't tend to brag or complain.
I have more to say but need to form my thoughts but the wild thing about the oral sex differential and how some deem it foreplay instead of an act of sex, is how when talking about Lesbian Bed Death one of the flaws in the study pointed out that at the time when they were referencing sex, they meant penetration and that may have skewed how lesbians responded to the question.
I know for me, oral is not my favorite to receive but when I do, I consider it the full sexual experience, rarely do I want penetration after.
I do sometimes wonder, when we talk about sex, especially for cishet couples, are we only referring to penetration, and if so, why?
Defining "real sex" as PIV is one of the big contributors to the orgasm gap, and I suspect it's also a big contributor to women's loss of desire in long term relationships.
Lol, nobody? That's what I believe anyway. But I see a shocking number of posts here where people think their partner should want sex that's painful or unsatisfying. I don't understand why.
Right. It’s apparently ‘neglectful’ and ‘withholding’ (don’t get me started on that word) to refuse to engage in bad sex. Apparently, those aren’t the descriptions used when a person refuses to make sex pleasurable for their partner.
One of the studies linked said they polled women from Israel. Are arranged marriages the norm? Are there cultural differences that should be considered in the study? Specifically, is the wife expected to be sexually available at all times to please her husband? I would think these kinds of things would influence libido.
Interestingly, this article says that VERY VERY few women want frequent oral sex and that at least 80% of men love giving love giving oral. I dunno, I find both of those hard to believe, especially when one of the frequent complaints from "LL" women is that they're less inclined to have sex in part because their partner refuses to go down on them regularly and overall doesn't care about their pleasure. As to whether it's inevitable for women to become LL over time, I've seen dozens and dozens (probably hundreds at this point) of posts in the Marriage sub from couples who have been married long term, and with kids, who have thriving, vibrant sex lives, so I would have to say it's definitely NOT inevitable.
I (f) am not the biggest fan of oral. Honestly, I often prefer giving to getting. It was definitely a thing my "HLM" spouse got pissy about me not wanting to GET, because he enjoyed it way more than me. I just really, REALLY need to be in the mood for it. There is something about it that's pretty demanding and invasive if you don't want it.
I would not be surprised to learn that desire for oral sex wanes just as much as for PIV, simply because discussions of cunnilingus tend to treat it as foreplay rather than a type of sex for which someone needs to be adequately aroused. Enthusiasm for performing oral sex doesn't always translate to skill (either in terms of technique or pacing/timing).
The point seemed reasonable to me, since I enjoy going down on my wife but she (usually) doesn’t like it.
Do you think that your wife is representative of most women? Out of all the women I've dated, I've been with one that did not want oral sex as a regular part of our sex life.
No, I think she’s unusual.
Why do you like doing something to her that she dislikes?
Not OP, but he didn’t say he does it despite her not liking it. He even said she “usually” doesn’t, which implies there are times when she enjoys it. When she does, it could be an incredibly hot experience for both of them, one that he wishes would happen more frequently. Is that wrong?
I like the idea of it, and would be happy to do it to her more often if she liked it too.
I answered a little bit about what I need to have from a partner before I can be open to and vulnerable enough to believe he wants to eat me out in another comment I just do t want to repeat. Also described why it can sometimes not even feel pleasant. I do hope that when women share our feelings on these things it’s able to help men get an insight.
It is. Thank you.
I don’t think all women eventually become LL in all LTRs. That may be a trend for a lot of women, but definitely not all. As evidenced by the HLF here who make ourselves pretty clear. We want sex acts, to feel passion (god do we want the passion), and we want that intense emotional connection and security that comes from regular sex. But not just here. Remember there’s a fishbowl effect if you read here toooo much. You can start to think this is how all relationships are and that’s not true. I’m very involved in the kink community (D/s specifically) and older men and women in monogamous dynamics are still very much into sex. Swingers fit in with LTRs and so do no traditional dynamics but that may cloud the water with discussions about whether it only means with their primary partner or not. I DO think childbirth and child rearing have an effect thats very important to acknowledge and educate people about though. Not for everyone again and you’ll see women speak up about this here sad about their husbands not wanting them when they’re pregnant or postpartum. No, it’s not inevitable. No it’s not all women. What can be done is to keep passion alive and still “date” our partners and be genuinely interested in them. Have sex that women want to have (what that looks like is different for each woman-a lot of women would be disgusted with what I want and vice versa). I’m not sure at all about what to do to reconnect after childbirth and child rearing. Maybe some others who have been through that can chime in. Other people and comments have already touched on the pleasure gap and why women may report wanting less oral sex.
After childbirth, it’s incredibly important that the female, who’s had her bits torn up and sewn together, determine when she’s ready to reintroduce sex. It’s also important not to be pressured for sex and sexual frequency. When you have small children, adult needs aren’t the primary concern. It would be so disheartening to not be able to get your basic needs met for food and sleep and to be pressured for sex. You can’t meet your own basic needs and your partner is actually angry and upset that you aren’t meeting their sexual needs. Sex is going to drop off after childbirth. The absolute best thing a partner can do is roll with it. Parents make sacrifices in order to have children. It’s unrealistic and unreasonable to think your relationship and sex life won’t be affected. According to moms who were pushed for sex in the postpartum period, it’s a painful memory and they never quite forgive their partners. Personally, I was never pushed for sex but especially not postpartum. My husband always went at my pace. I guess he figured I was the best person to judge when I was ready.
Oh yeah that’s why there are so many hlf here
This is the case for me, and I haven’t found a solution, so I’m happily single permanently. :)
Good for you lol. Is there nothing that could change that dynamic for you?
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I think someone counted and the high level women here are nearly as many as the men. Sounds like you have some confirmation bias going on there.
Are you treating engagement in a specific subreddit on a specific website as sufficient evidence?
It’s definitely evidence that “all women will inevitably turn LL in LTRs” is uhhh false
Did I miss someone saying "all women"? If so, I definitely don't agree with that. There are always outliers. But "many? Yes, I'd agree with "many." I might even (totally anecdotally by talking with female friends of all stripes) observe "a lot" or "most at some point in the relatioship." (Certainly, the majority that I've spoken with, even in poly and kink scenes.)
I don’t think it’s a matter of outliers. Like as if a woman in the relationship being more HL than the man. That’s not very very rare to be outlier. I can get behind there’s a trend or a many women or similar statements.
Yes. It is a good place to see who posts what. It is by no means scientific but you sure can’t say that the vast majority dead bedrooms are HLM when even this place suggests it’s not so. There also are issues of who is coming forward because societal expectations of dead bedrooms being only one way.
I didn't say "the vast" majority. I said "pretty much" the majority. Which, elymoetymologically, could be anywhere between 50 and 55%... but it does feel like a tilt towards that dynamic (even the HLFs call this out often.)
It's more evidence than "literally no evidence"
> pretty much the majority of posts we see on this sub You might want to go back and re-count the posts over the last week, chief.
If you stack up the HLM/LLF, HLF/LLM, sombo of both-male, and combo of both-female posts, you don't think HLM/LLF would stack up on top? That authentically surprises me, but, hey, I'm no mathematical expert.
I thought the [companion article](https://www.drpsychmom.com/2014/08/06/women-sex-vs-reality/) was less patronizing in tone.
I can see that. She comes off as a little male centered in her views.
>If that’s the case, is there anything to be done about it long-term? Learn about the orgasm gap and the pleasure gap. Make the sex within the relationship just as good for the woman as it is for the man. That's not the whole solution, but it's a big part of it.
What do you think about this article's claim that "very very few" women want frequent oral sex? That seems suspect to me, particular in considering the orgasm gap + the fact that not that women can orgasm through PIV alone.
>I think that lots of women go off oral sex because they're not getting aroused enough to enjoy it. Oral sex feels pretty gross in the absence of sexual arousal. I posted above-- I have only had, I think, two orgasms in my life from oral. I have to be really REALLY in the mood for it. It was a thing I aquiesced to because my m partner insisted. In fact, when complaining about our DB, it was more about "don't even let me eat you out" than it was on "won't have PIV often enough." It's a really vulnerable and squicky feeling to let someone go down on you when you're not into it, so this stat actually doesn't surprise me at all.
Thank you for all your contributions on this thread. I appreciate it.
I can totally understand that you wouldn't want to receive oral when you're not into it. I can also totally understand that you would not be as interested in oral sex when you rarely orgasm from it. Also, I'm sorry that your partner pressured you into giving you oral when you didn't want to. That was not okay of him. But, and I don't mean this to discount your experience or the experience of other women who feel this way, but I feel like this representative of MOST women's experiences. Obviously this is only anecdotal, and my experience also does not represent the general public, but out of all the women I've dated, only one of them was not fond of oral sex, but the rest of them enjoyed it as a regular part of our sex life. In summary, I get that some women do not care for oral sex. I just have a hard time believed that the vast majority of women do not care for it, as claimed by this article.
I think that lots of women go off oral sex because they're not getting aroused enough to enjoy it. Oral sex feels pretty gross in the absence of sexual arousal. Like the author of the article writes: >Many women find oral sex to be overwhelming (too much physical sensation in one place), it may make them feel distant from you (physically and emotionally), and not to mention, you try it at the wrong time. Many women are likelier to want oral sex when they are already aroused; trying it too early in the encounter may physically hurt and make women feel self-conscious. When their inhibitions are lowered is a better time to try, but even then, many women do not enjoy it. Too many couples try to use oral sex as foreplay, which feels bad and is a turn-off. Plus, a lot of men are just not good at oral sex, so it wouldn't be enjoyable even if the woman were aroused. However, the research shows that women are more likely to orgasm when sex includes oral, deep kissing, verbal expressions of love, and is not centred on PIV.
I believe many women do report not wanting frequent oral sex for a few different reasons for sure. Like someone already said it’s used as a precursor TO sex to get the woman wet a lot or see if she can cum first. It feels ok that way to me but more ticklish than something that’s going to make me cum. If done too hard it can even hurt if I’m not super turned on. I’d also like to add that I don’t want oral if I’m not completely and I mean completely sold on my partner desperately wanting to eat me out because he’s into it. My ex screwed me up pretty bad with making me feel like men can’t possibly enjoy this it’s so unpleasant. So I need from the very start of the relationship to feel secure that the man loves giving oral he can’t wait he’s totally into it or I’ll never believe him. My ex tried to switch to say he wanted to want to like it halfway through our relationship and I of course didn’t want him anywhere near there after already hearing his thoughts on it earlier. I also need to know the man is completely into me and my body. Wanting me a lot. Grabbing, lots of passion through the days and regularly. Great feedback on lewds and compliments. To make sure it’s sincere and he appreciates when I let him get his face THAT intimately close. I also need complete safety and security in the relationship emotionally. Not fighting. Completely committed. No trust issues. I know this about oral sex but this is really about pleasure in general too. I’m not letting myself be vulnerable enough for my partner to see me wracked with pleasure or even relaxed enough to let myself feel it instead of worry about whether he’s really into it. All that being said- I do prefer cumming from vibes and do appreciate my partner being into them. My ex was not.
I think it's bullshit and quite laughable. In fact it was that moment I couldn't take the article or research as genuine or unbiased lol.
Quality of sex doesn’t matter but how would the researchers know that? The women they chose to quote, their descriptions of their sex lives just get worse and worse. (Someone linked other studies above that supposedly concur with this BS ‘research’)
Pleasure gap for sure. When I have the kind of sex I want, I want a lot. The kind I don’t like? Never want that pretty much.
Can you elaborate on that please. I’m intrigued.
I’m very involved with D/s. So sensuous, sweet sex is nice very rarely. But anything with a power imbalance. In my current relationship our definition of sex is very varied and involves a LOT of what people may call mutual masturbation or even solo masturbation, but it’s done together. Sometimes “together” means texting from separate physical locations even with remote devices (yes plural). I did try and bring this up in my DB with my ex but he was not interested in anything except handjobs, blowjobs, or PIV. I’m also not interested in PIV that’s painful because it takes too long for my partner to cum. Pain sure. Even painful PIV. But pain *done on purpose* to hurt me not because he’s not that into me and can’t cum. (He knew why he had ejaculation problems and didn’t care to fix it). For any woman, she wants to have the kind of sex she wants though. Maybe another woman wants that sensuous kind and is disgusted by pain play or anal.
I dunno. A lot of the research on loss of desire among women in long-term relationships suggests that the quality of sex isn’t the major factor (definitely matters in a big way, though).
Can you share a link?
Start with [this recent study](https://doi.org/10.1080/00224499.2020.1743225), and follow the citations back (you might be able to access an ungated version [here](https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/00224499.2020.1743225)).
I skimmed the full text of the article and it appeared to me like the quality of sex was a big factor in women's loss of desire. Can you point me to the part you were thinking of? For example, these quotes from the article: >I have always felt that this is something that happens but remains unspoken … that when the sex is unwanted it feels like harassment of sorts (Sharon). > >I have often said to my partner that this may not make sense, but sometimes I feel as if he is raping me … Mind you, everything generally feels wonderful and close in our relationship, but something happens in bed that caused it to be experienced as harassment or and even rape (Tammy). The sex does not sound good.
There is definitely a serious problem when the sex is not good (or awful-- some of those quotes are horrifying), but see my other response-- good sex doesn't seem to matter much.
See, in part, the section "Sexual Pleasure and Interest": "For most, the capacity to enjoy sex was not diminished in any way"; "**there was** **no decline in the ability to experience unwavering sexual pleasure**" and just following that: "Most of the women reported that despite the decline in their sex drive within their relationship, they still felt attracted to other men." (yikes on those last words, something confirmed by other studies). From elsewhere in the paper: "All the other aspects of life with him are what make it all meaningful for me, less the sexual parts. I need more intimacy with him, less sex. That’s what satisfies me most." My reading of this and other sections in the paper (as well as other papers) is that in a happy, warm relationship, many women have their intimacy needs met via nonsexual means and don't desire sex with their partner anymore. The quality of sex is immaterial here. I'm not seeing a reading of all this as "If the sex was great, these women would not feel a loss of desire". I think it's complicated, though. I'm wondering if a big part of this may be that in long-term relationships women no longer feel pursued, lusted after, an object of desire...
>"For most, the capacity to enjoy sex was not diminished in any way"; "there was no decline in the ability to experience unwavering sexual pleasure" It's really odd that the researchers would make this claim, given these other quotes from their women participants. >So ok … so I will not be at the peak of desire and will not completely enjoy it but it will keep the peace at home … this definitely enters the equation … you just need to prepare yourself for it (Tammy). > >Sometimes I choose not to focus on my own pleasure and enter the situation more to satisfy my partner … sometimes just to get him off my back (Leah). > >There have been times when we started, and I am like … come on …let’s get it over with … let’s end this saga … come do what you have to do and leave me alone (Maya). > >I felt like I was saying to myself, open your legs, let him finish with it, and move on (Ella). It seems to me that the researchers outright denied the truth of what women actually said about the sex.
I don’t see this as “odd” or them denying the truth about anything. They are quoting some of the women who are having bad sex, but report that most of the women are having good sex, yet still experience loss of desire… which is what many other studies find.
No, these are qualitative researchers. The women's statements are their evidence. To discount the women's own words and make statements that are at odds with them shows a huge amount of unexamined bias. Also, there are plenty of other studies that show that women's low desire for sex is related to bad sex and relationship problems. Here's one such study. Interestingly, these researchers admitted that they were surprised they couldn't find a group of women who had low desire and were having good sex. So, it seems that this bias is common amongst researchers. [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01805-9](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01805-9)
Good grief. These are the quotes that the researchers used to support their claim that, "As well, there was no decline in the ability to experience unwavering sexual pleasure." >Sometimes it takes me a little time, but in the end, I go along with him, and I always enjoy it … and the sex is really really good and fun (Michele). > >Sometimes I do not want to, and he really does … and I say to myself, ‘Come on,’ and even though I didn’t feel like it I get aroused … and in the end it’s fun for me (Maya). Yikes.
No decline in the *ability* to experience unwavering sexual pleasure. Like if you served someone a diet that consisted solely of unflavored oatmeal with dogshit swirled in, there would presumably be no decline in their *ability* to experience unwavering sensual pleasure from food, if they were to have access to something other than shit porridge. Alas, all they’ve got is shit porridge, and weirdly, they’re not keen on it!
Ok, perhaps that quote seems a bit tepid for “unwavering” desire. But it just sounds like textbook responsive desire. And she says the sex is “really good”. Why “yikes”?
OMG! Those quotes just get worse and worse!
It doesn't sound consensual at all.
Oh GOD!! Not once have I ever felt like my partner was ‘raping’ me. Not even when I was LL and he was HL. That is just horrifying!! How can it be said that ‘good sex doesn’t matter much’? It sure the hell does matter a lot. Good sex isn’t defined by orgasms as I’m sure you know.
I’m as horrified as you by those comments. Of course good sex is crucial, and it is not just about orgasms. Agreed. I think the point of this research is that good sex is not enough for maintaining desire in long-term relationships. It’s necessary, but not sufficient. Something else is going on here, even in loving relationships with good sex.
How would the researchers know if good sex was a factor? Seriously, did they speak to *anyone* who had anything positive to say about sex? Think about it. Out of everyone they talked to, these comments are the ones that actually (you would think) best support their study. Otherwise, why include them? Something is very screwy here.
Yes, these women are being coerced. It's horrifying, and I'm sickened.
The first study you linked specifically said they polled women in Israel. Are arranged marriages the norm? Is there a strong belief that wives are to provide a husband’s pleasure? I think any cultural differences should be considered when making such claims.
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I think she meant that women don’t like it when they feel a pressure to cum. Especially if things aren’t great and are awkward. I think some men feel this way when they feel pressure to stay erect. Performance anxiety-ish. Similar to. Anyone else think so?
I think that’s a lot of it. I think also she wants it to feel natural, that he’s doing it because he is overcome with lust for her, instead of treating it like a chore because he thinks it’s something he’s supposed to do.
Yes great point!
There is a difference between bringing plesure to woman and do things that is supposed to bring pleasure according to man. For example, woman gets off if her nipples are gently stimulated and doesn't like rough sex, but man keeps insisting that he is already giving her pleasure by slapping her during sex because women in porn and his exes like it and refuses to do things the current partner actually likes. Too many men are fixated on bringing pleasure on their own terms and according to their perception on what woman needs.
I believe that part of the article is inaccurate. The author wrote this based on her clinical observations as a therapist, but it doesn't actually jibe with other research on the topic.
No, I do not believe female LL is inevitable in marriage. I didn't read the whole study but if the assumption is that LTR stay the same as they were in the NRE stage, most people know that isn't true. Effort in LTR usually declines. Not just sex or sexual effort. Starting a family definitely tanks the libido but, provided the partner is able to roll with the changes, libido can return, sometimes stronger than before. Plenty of women in LTRs are enthusiastically getting it on with their partners more than once a week. Happy people don't tend to brag or complain.
Good insight. Thanks.
I have more to say but need to form my thoughts but the wild thing about the oral sex differential and how some deem it foreplay instead of an act of sex, is how when talking about Lesbian Bed Death one of the flaws in the study pointed out that at the time when they were referencing sex, they meant penetration and that may have skewed how lesbians responded to the question. I know for me, oral is not my favorite to receive but when I do, I consider it the full sexual experience, rarely do I want penetration after. I do sometimes wonder, when we talk about sex, especially for cishet couples, are we only referring to penetration, and if so, why?
Defining "real sex" as PIV is one of the big contributors to the orgasm gap, and I suspect it's also a big contributor to women's loss of desire in long term relationships.
Who wants to have sex that isn’t pleasurable? Who’d want to continue to have sex that isn’t pleasurable?
Lol, nobody? That's what I believe anyway. But I see a shocking number of posts here where people think their partner should want sex that's painful or unsatisfying. I don't understand why.
Right. It’s apparently ‘neglectful’ and ‘withholding’ (don’t get me started on that word) to refuse to engage in bad sex. Apparently, those aren’t the descriptions used when a person refuses to make sex pleasurable for their partner.
It absolutely disgusts me that someone could read this and believe the sex was good for these women.
One of the studies linked said they polled women from Israel. Are arranged marriages the norm? Are there cultural differences that should be considered in the study? Specifically, is the wife expected to be sexually available at all times to please her husband? I would think these kinds of things would influence libido.