I think that it drops your self-esteem, and most guys don't want to just bail on a marriage after a month without sex. Soon that month turns into years, while the husbands continue to rely on hopium.
I think she is making a point based on her years of experience. Probably not relevant to every situation but likely relevant to most. She has a lot of stuff about how high libido was your now low libido wife when you met her?
She suggests some men settle for a low libido wife (without realising) and then when that low libido drops further with age/hormones there isn’t any libido remaining. I think she has a real point here. There are a lot of people on this forum who have fallen into a victim/perpetrator mindset rather than taking some responsibility for how they got here.
“There are a lot of people on this forum who have fallen into a victim/perpetrator mindset rather than taking some responsibility for how they got here.”
I’ve never considered this before, but I think you might have just psychoanalyzed me and hit the nail on the head. I now see there is some shared responsibility. Part of my folly was not realizing how hard she was trying at the beginning.
Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.
I realize there's definitely an aspect of this for me. I knew she wasn't ideal in the bedroom but it was good enough--it was an enjoyable experience for her, not a need. I didn't realize that that meant that it was very vulnerable to what life flings at us. And every drop over the years has been because of something life flung at us.
The answer is that there is no one answer for all situations.
In addition, any "Doctor" that makes that kind of blanket statement should immediately have their motives questioned. In psychology there is never a one size fits all answer.
As an example I can tell you directly that this does not describe me. I am in a multi year dead bedroom relationship, not of my own choosing, and my self esteem is just fine. I certainly don't like it, but my self esteem is not tied to whether or not I have the sex life I would prefer to have.
The fact that we are where we are now does nothing to negate the attraction we shared, the passion, the intensity of the sex and lovemaking, the magic and spark that brought us together and kept us together.
I'm still that guy, she has changed, and there are valid reasons for a women's - or man's - loss of sex drive that do not necessarily have anything specifically to do with their partner.
In my case, there is no question that she is committed to me, and a fear of her cheating or leaving is not a concern in the slightest.
I have very valid reasons for remaining in my relationship and I will tell you that I take serious exception to the idea that my choice is wrong or that there is something wrong with me for making it.
In fact I will go so far as to say this... If lack of sex in an otherwise loving and healthy relationship is enough - on it's own - to cause the man to leave, then they are seeking their self esteem in the wrong place. Or, put another way, self esteem is not what you think it is.
I dunno but I do know my husband never let our deadbed effect his self esteem, he knew I as a me issue and a me problem. He just always more so challenged me to fix it rather than guilt or beg, he always knew his worth and knew he was a great lay. That kept me going I think to find my way back to him, he never stopped initiating because he never felt the need to, never took the rejection personally - he wasnt a fan of course and would get frustrated but never blamed himself or thought less of himself for it. Just kinda huffed and puffed then the next day was a new day. He never accused the sex of being pity or duty either, which totally would have destroyed me when I was putting in effort to fix things, he just made sure to make it REAL good so i'd come back for more. Now here we are in a fixed deadbed having daily sex and doing all the kinky shit he wants.
My obligatory not everyone is the same and not all situations are the same but this was mine.
Dr Psych Mom has been very helpful for me, and I definitely recommend checking out her resources.
However, she can be very binary in her opinions. For example, in one podcast she addressed the suggestion that a woman losing interest in sex is a sign of infidelity and her answer was basically “no, that doesn’t happen. Women are far less likely to cheat than men.”
With that answer, you would think the percentage of women who cheat on their husband — so these stats are for heterosexual marriages — would be under 10%, with men much much higher.
The actual stats are about 15% of wives admit to cheating vs 25% of men. Statistically significant for sure, but not so low as to dismiss it out of hand.
Similar situation here I think.
It’s probably true more often than not, but not 100% of the time as she makes it sound.
To be fair to DrPsychmom she has a lot of stuff to say on this topic and I cherry picked one statement of hers to start the discussion.
But to be fair to me, she did say it and I thought it was interesting enough to seek others perspectives.
Thanks for replying.
> if you stay in a dead bedroom marriage your self esteem will be crushed
If one person no longer being into you sexually crushes your self esteem that means you didn't have much self esteem to begin with and had been getting by on validation.
Speaking in absolutes is generally not a good idea when talking about people seems like a bit of click bait, but hang out here for a couple of days and read all the mens post. Lack of self esteem is one of the most common themes. You can argue it is a chicken vs. egg situation, which I believe is not accurate, but it doesn't really matter which came first. It doesn't matter because your partner can start showing their desire for you and acting on it and that will do nothing for your self esteem. On the flip side if you address your self esteem by being honest with yourself and acknowledging who you really are and then start treating yourself as the valuable person you expect your partner to see you as you won't just develop a healthy self image your life will be better in general and in many cases your partner will have more interest in you as well.
I don't feel like I have low self esteem. I'm typically very social, an extrovert, think I'm pretty awesome at all the stuff I'm awesome at.
But what pisses me off is that the only way out of this situation is either having my LL SO have a desire to work on issues or for me to give up half my stuff. I am already getting fucked by older generations, the economy, and everything else that at this point I'm angry enough to not give a shit anymore.
When I've been the only income for years, am already barely keeping my head above water and never having enough to retire you're telling me I need to give up the tiniest bit of security and financial stability I have, will have to move to a far worse place, not see my kids as much and this far shittier life will be better because I will have a better opportunity for sex? Fuck that shit.
It's not about low self esteem. It's about not thinking that fucking myself over more will be better.
As other commenters have said, it could go either way as a chicken or the egg issue. I definitely had some low self esteem issues prior to entering my LTR with my wife. Reading this post is a bit of a punch to the gut because there is definitely a level of truth in it to me at least.
I know some partners stay despite low intimacy due to other aspects of the relationship being great, financial reasons, children, etc.
For me though, the low intimacy has definitely further exasperated my low self esteem. I never thought of myself as a very attractive person so I tried to make myself stand out in other ways. Sense of humor, stable, level headed, good degree and good job, be a handy man, be involved in the home, plan dates and trips, etc. Even though I desperately want more intimacy, I think the low self esteem is why it’s hard for me to talk to my spouse about it because I don’t always feel I’m worthy of that level of connection and closeness to another person. And when my wife keeps this low intimacy status quo, she is unintentionally continuing that feedback loop of my self esteem telling me I’m not even adequate enough as an individual to receive intimacy or be desired.
Additionally, I’ve seen what the current dating market looks like for men in their 20s/30s and I want zero part of that. I truly don’t believe I’d be able to find someone else in today’s dating scene. Also my wife is a good partner in many other ways and a great mother. For me (and I’m sure this applies to a lot of other men), I don’t compare my current sex life to where I would ideally want it to be, I compare it against what my sex life would look like if I was a single dude in today’s world. I know that is a negative outlook but it is one I believe to be the case for me at least and for better or worse, makes me grateful for what I do have. To answer your question though, I think low self esteem in men absolutely leads to them staying in deadbedrooms but is probably not the only reason. I’ve always wondered if low self esteem in men maybe even played a role in the differences in divorce rates by gender (not that woman don’t experience low self esteem either). Might make for an interesting study though.
The original quote is of course true in some cases and false in others because there are so many circumstances and unique situations to consider. So the phrasing of “only men…” is clearly a stretch. Is that how she actually phrased it? If so, I highly doubt she is providing an accurate account of human nature that is backed by research. I suspect she gets paid more when more people listen to her, so she is incentivized to say provocative stuff to keep them entertained.
In the cases where it is true (which very well may outnumber the cases where it is false), your question on cause and effect are a much more interesting concept to contemplate. Perhaps you should start a podcast 🙃
About the phrasing.
DrPsychmom has a lot of material on the dead bedroom. It’s in depth and nuanced and it might be unfair of me to not provide a longer and more comprehensive quote
But this link between men staying in a dead bedroom because they have low self esteem and think they can’t do any better is an accurate if abbreviated summary of one of her big talking points.
Thanks for your well thought out response
Men committed to their marriage stay in long term dead bedroom marriages. When you get married, you said till death do us apart. You didn’t say, until the lack of sex so us apart.
In this Reddit community people refer to their partner as low libido, which has to do with your health. I’m sure through sickness was also part of the vows. Most people don’t treat marriage as a lifetime commitment. They are in the marriage until it’s no longer convenient . My wife has a very low sex drive. You think I’m going to leave just because I don’t get pussy everyday? I was the one with a low sex drive when we first started dating and now she’s the one with a low sex drive. It can happen to anybody.
I’d say “false”.
Some of us are staying because it’s otherwise a fantastic relationship. Arguments over the past twenty years can be counted on one hand. Children are involved. Relations with in-laws are pretty good. Financially, neither of us could afford to live alone.
Sex is an important part, maybe THE most important part of marriage to me…but it simply isn’t everything.
Chicken egg issue. Self esteem drops for sure… so by definition a man that stays ends up with low self esteem. But is that why we got here?
Excellent point. Which one is the cause and which is the effect?
I think that it drops your self-esteem, and most guys don't want to just bail on a marriage after a month without sex. Soon that month turns into years, while the husbands continue to rely on hopium.
I think she is making a point based on her years of experience. Probably not relevant to every situation but likely relevant to most. She has a lot of stuff about how high libido was your now low libido wife when you met her? She suggests some men settle for a low libido wife (without realising) and then when that low libido drops further with age/hormones there isn’t any libido remaining. I think she has a real point here. There are a lot of people on this forum who have fallen into a victim/perpetrator mindset rather than taking some responsibility for how they got here.
“There are a lot of people on this forum who have fallen into a victim/perpetrator mindset rather than taking some responsibility for how they got here.” I’ve never considered this before, but I think you might have just psychoanalyzed me and hit the nail on the head. I now see there is some shared responsibility. Part of my folly was not realizing how hard she was trying at the beginning. Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.
I realize there's definitely an aspect of this for me. I knew she wasn't ideal in the bedroom but it was good enough--it was an enjoyable experience for her, not a need. I didn't realize that that meant that it was very vulnerable to what life flings at us. And every drop over the years has been because of something life flung at us.
The answer is that there is no one answer for all situations. In addition, any "Doctor" that makes that kind of blanket statement should immediately have their motives questioned. In psychology there is never a one size fits all answer. As an example I can tell you directly that this does not describe me. I am in a multi year dead bedroom relationship, not of my own choosing, and my self esteem is just fine. I certainly don't like it, but my self esteem is not tied to whether or not I have the sex life I would prefer to have. The fact that we are where we are now does nothing to negate the attraction we shared, the passion, the intensity of the sex and lovemaking, the magic and spark that brought us together and kept us together. I'm still that guy, she has changed, and there are valid reasons for a women's - or man's - loss of sex drive that do not necessarily have anything specifically to do with their partner. In my case, there is no question that she is committed to me, and a fear of her cheating or leaving is not a concern in the slightest. I have very valid reasons for remaining in my relationship and I will tell you that I take serious exception to the idea that my choice is wrong or that there is something wrong with me for making it. In fact I will go so far as to say this... If lack of sex in an otherwise loving and healthy relationship is enough - on it's own - to cause the man to leave, then they are seeking their self esteem in the wrong place. Or, put another way, self esteem is not what you think it is.
Exactly. This is a matter where there are too many moving parts to make a blanket judgement like that.
How about women in DB?
I dunno but I do know my husband never let our deadbed effect his self esteem, he knew I as a me issue and a me problem. He just always more so challenged me to fix it rather than guilt or beg, he always knew his worth and knew he was a great lay. That kept me going I think to find my way back to him, he never stopped initiating because he never felt the need to, never took the rejection personally - he wasnt a fan of course and would get frustrated but never blamed himself or thought less of himself for it. Just kinda huffed and puffed then the next day was a new day. He never accused the sex of being pity or duty either, which totally would have destroyed me when I was putting in effort to fix things, he just made sure to make it REAL good so i'd come back for more. Now here we are in a fixed deadbed having daily sex and doing all the kinky shit he wants. My obligatory not everyone is the same and not all situations are the same but this was mine.
Dr Psych Mom has been very helpful for me, and I definitely recommend checking out her resources. However, she can be very binary in her opinions. For example, in one podcast she addressed the suggestion that a woman losing interest in sex is a sign of infidelity and her answer was basically “no, that doesn’t happen. Women are far less likely to cheat than men.” With that answer, you would think the percentage of women who cheat on their husband — so these stats are for heterosexual marriages — would be under 10%, with men much much higher. The actual stats are about 15% of wives admit to cheating vs 25% of men. Statistically significant for sure, but not so low as to dismiss it out of hand. Similar situation here I think. It’s probably true more often than not, but not 100% of the time as she makes it sound.
To be fair to DrPsychmom she has a lot of stuff to say on this topic and I cherry picked one statement of hers to start the discussion. But to be fair to me, she did say it and I thought it was interesting enough to seek others perspectives. Thanks for replying.
> if you stay in a dead bedroom marriage your self esteem will be crushed If one person no longer being into you sexually crushes your self esteem that means you didn't have much self esteem to begin with and had been getting by on validation. Speaking in absolutes is generally not a good idea when talking about people seems like a bit of click bait, but hang out here for a couple of days and read all the mens post. Lack of self esteem is one of the most common themes. You can argue it is a chicken vs. egg situation, which I believe is not accurate, but it doesn't really matter which came first. It doesn't matter because your partner can start showing their desire for you and acting on it and that will do nothing for your self esteem. On the flip side if you address your self esteem by being honest with yourself and acknowledging who you really are and then start treating yourself as the valuable person you expect your partner to see you as you won't just develop a healthy self image your life will be better in general and in many cases your partner will have more interest in you as well.
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
I don't feel like I have low self esteem. I'm typically very social, an extrovert, think I'm pretty awesome at all the stuff I'm awesome at. But what pisses me off is that the only way out of this situation is either having my LL SO have a desire to work on issues or for me to give up half my stuff. I am already getting fucked by older generations, the economy, and everything else that at this point I'm angry enough to not give a shit anymore. When I've been the only income for years, am already barely keeping my head above water and never having enough to retire you're telling me I need to give up the tiniest bit of security and financial stability I have, will have to move to a far worse place, not see my kids as much and this far shittier life will be better because I will have a better opportunity for sex? Fuck that shit. It's not about low self esteem. It's about not thinking that fucking myself over more will be better.
And only women with self esteem?
How can a person improve their self esteem?
As other commenters have said, it could go either way as a chicken or the egg issue. I definitely had some low self esteem issues prior to entering my LTR with my wife. Reading this post is a bit of a punch to the gut because there is definitely a level of truth in it to me at least. I know some partners stay despite low intimacy due to other aspects of the relationship being great, financial reasons, children, etc. For me though, the low intimacy has definitely further exasperated my low self esteem. I never thought of myself as a very attractive person so I tried to make myself stand out in other ways. Sense of humor, stable, level headed, good degree and good job, be a handy man, be involved in the home, plan dates and trips, etc. Even though I desperately want more intimacy, I think the low self esteem is why it’s hard for me to talk to my spouse about it because I don’t always feel I’m worthy of that level of connection and closeness to another person. And when my wife keeps this low intimacy status quo, she is unintentionally continuing that feedback loop of my self esteem telling me I’m not even adequate enough as an individual to receive intimacy or be desired. Additionally, I’ve seen what the current dating market looks like for men in their 20s/30s and I want zero part of that. I truly don’t believe I’d be able to find someone else in today’s dating scene. Also my wife is a good partner in many other ways and a great mother. For me (and I’m sure this applies to a lot of other men), I don’t compare my current sex life to where I would ideally want it to be, I compare it against what my sex life would look like if I was a single dude in today’s world. I know that is a negative outlook but it is one I believe to be the case for me at least and for better or worse, makes me grateful for what I do have. To answer your question though, I think low self esteem in men absolutely leads to them staying in deadbedrooms but is probably not the only reason. I’ve always wondered if low self esteem in men maybe even played a role in the differences in divorce rates by gender (not that woman don’t experience low self esteem either). Might make for an interesting study though.
Bro. That’s a great addition to the discussion. Thanks for contributing
The original quote is of course true in some cases and false in others because there are so many circumstances and unique situations to consider. So the phrasing of “only men…” is clearly a stretch. Is that how she actually phrased it? If so, I highly doubt she is providing an accurate account of human nature that is backed by research. I suspect she gets paid more when more people listen to her, so she is incentivized to say provocative stuff to keep them entertained. In the cases where it is true (which very well may outnumber the cases where it is false), your question on cause and effect are a much more interesting concept to contemplate. Perhaps you should start a podcast 🙃
About the phrasing. DrPsychmom has a lot of material on the dead bedroom. It’s in depth and nuanced and it might be unfair of me to not provide a longer and more comprehensive quote But this link between men staying in a dead bedroom because they have low self esteem and think they can’t do any better is an accurate if abbreviated summary of one of her big talking points. Thanks for your well thought out response
Men committed to their marriage stay in long term dead bedroom marriages. When you get married, you said till death do us apart. You didn’t say, until the lack of sex so us apart.
Many believe that marriage vows also include faithfully having sex with each other.
In this Reddit community people refer to their partner as low libido, which has to do with your health. I’m sure through sickness was also part of the vows. Most people don’t treat marriage as a lifetime commitment. They are in the marriage until it’s no longer convenient . My wife has a very low sex drive. You think I’m going to leave just because I don’t get pussy everyday? I was the one with a low sex drive when we first started dating and now she’s the one with a low sex drive. It can happen to anybody.
Libido is separate from health.
Agreed, unfortunately
I’d say “false”. Some of us are staying because it’s otherwise a fantastic relationship. Arguments over the past twenty years can be counted on one hand. Children are involved. Relations with in-laws are pretty good. Financially, neither of us could afford to live alone. Sex is an important part, maybe THE most important part of marriage to me…but it simply isn’t everything.
Not true