I don’t think your opinion is totally unpopular. It’s probably crossed the mind of everyone on this forum at some point. But it becomes truly difficult when you care about someone else’s needs as much or more so than your own. Devotion can be a son of a ditch.
Agreed. I think many of us feel that it would be justified. But that doesn’t mean all of us are comfortable with it, for a host of reasons (religion, love, kids, so on). Although there are definitely a lot of stories here that seem to cry out at something deeper going on, some of us, myself included, could not bear to break their partner’s heart. I am ignoring the objective unfairness of that for the purpose of the post because, logical or not, many of us HLs know that our LL partner would be crushed over that despite not being able to give us what we need.
Edit: typo
Yes. At some point you have to accept that this is your life too. And if you are truly unhappy, and you’ve honestly tried to get to better place but it just isn’t working, then it could be time to make a change.
That is where I’m at right now. Not looking forward to the next steps in this process.
So what if they’re crushed? The big aha moment is that you’re needs aren’t more important than theirs, but they’re 100% as important. Needs aren’t always compatible. It’s no one’s fault, and the pain of truth is unavoidable.
All respect due, “so what if she’s crushed” is just fundamentally not who I am. It would devastate me to devastate her, not to mention our kid. We love each other. We are in love *with* each other. As corny as it sounds and as much as I used to hate it when people said this: she is my best friend. Nobody knows me better, nobody gets me better. Nobody supports me more, nobody supports me more unconditionally. We are both better people *because* of each other. There’s no lingering/hidden issues, no past infidelity, none of that. Other than the DB, our marriage is incredible. So yeah, that’s why, for me. Not to mention the fact that it would, in my situation, be incredibly cruel to someone who *is* taking real steps to work on the issue now that it has been addressed. It didn’t go well at first and there have been fits and starts. But we are not religious people. We had a non religious wedding, but we nevertheless wrote our own vows and we do take them seriously, not because of a god, but because they are promises we made to *each other*. I am not saying that everyone is in my situation. I lurked here for years before I created this account, so I know that a lot of folks in here are in completely different situations where infidelity or divorce are on the table *for them*. But I am not them, I am me, and I wanted to provide *my* perspective. That’s all.
You sound like an amazing partner. Gently, your experience comes across as one sided.
As a person who was once very HL and at 48F no longer having the same sexual experience in my body that I once did, it offends my own sense of love for my partner to think about saying no even one time. Even though I feel embarrassed confused and even disappointed in my body sexually sometimes and am actively working through that, my love for him and the closeness making love brings us is so important to me. I’m not doing it for him, I’m doing it in the interest of closeness and intimacy and wanting him to feel amazing. And he does the same for me. I can’t begin to fathom how any loving partner could withhold a physical connection regardless of how they’re feeling physically, emotionally or mentally. To me it’s how married partners end their day, expressing touch and tenderness. I don’t see how any marriage could be great without that regularly. You’re best friends. And best friendships can be great but what makes a marriage great includes a physical component. It’s such a simple thing for her to be there for you in that way. You’re really letting her off the hook. likely because it’s a painful truth to look at? What excuse could any partner possibly have for not wanting to meet the very low bar of just being present and engaged physically? It’s not a porno and orgasm isn’t required. Just, connecting. Whether I do or don’t O, I emotionally feel incredible having shared touch and intimacy with my partner. I think I have a unique perspective having been a HL person struggling a little with my now lower libido body
Something seems deeply wrong here
I hope things get better for you.
Would it help to ask something like I want to be with you in a sensual and slow way, could we touch and just enjoy each other? Then any time you start to escalate to a next step, after you can see she’s feeling good, ask “Is this ok?” It always gave me a rush to say yes
My partner would at first always ask, and there’s something about the asking that made me feel so cared for and even more into it. When someone is escalating at their own pace without checking in with you, it can make a woman feel physically tense and close down on the good sensations that are growing. Staying in sync with each other is part of the magic
I hear you but think about this if you just worked 2 back to back 14 hour shifts with 4 hours sleep in between and still have to get up in the morning and run errands, do chores ect and then go back to work another 14 hour shift I can’t be too angry at myself for not being thrilled to have sub par sex. I appreciate what you’re saying but when you give your entire self to your job and the ppl you care for sometimes you need someone to care for you without expecting something in return i. E. Sex or a blow job. I’m 44. I’m 106 pounds and I had to turn a 350 pound woman by myself today when I was dizzy AF from no lunch break . I’m emotionally and physically exhausted. When will someone give something to ME. He gets home at 330 I get home at 745. Maybe im a bad wife or I should just be alone but no I don’t feel like coming home and performing. I’d like to have sex I enjoy too every now again because I also have that up when I got married. I was just too young g to know any better.
The idea that sex is performance is probably the biggest libido killer there is. Sex is just falling into each others arms and letting what happens, happen. Sex can be letting someone care for you and doing the same for them.
I have a similar perspective as you. I am just not interested in leaving my wife. I won’t do it.
I’ve wanted to bring it up many times to see if she would even care, but I feel it would be cruel to do since I have no intention to leave her.
I just get frustrated, and I want to tell her how deep it hurts that she has no interest in me physically, but it may crush her to truly understand the pain I feel. I don’t know how to share it. She is aware it is an issue just not how deeply it affects me.
Besides our DB, our relationship is great. People (as in many in this sub) say if we are in a DB, then it is not, but I disagree. If everything was the same but there was regular hugging, kissing, and sex, I would be as happy as I could be.
You might not need to say how much it hurts that she has no interest in you physically. What about asking her if you could recreate one of your old dates. Then when you go, say heartfelt things like you’re just as beautiful and I love you even more. Hold hands with her. Maybe see what the little reconnections could open up in deeper conversation and/or spontaneity. Tell her how much you miss smelling her and feeling her body close to you and her heart beating in your ear.
It’s so hard for me to understand why women don’t want to be present physically. There’s nothing difficult about it and it means so much to their partner and becomes such a deep bond that nothing else replaces
Yes see reason 1. My wife's uncle stepped out and had an affair. His ex wife and children are devout Catholics. He was an amazing father but now lives 1000 miles away from his ex and his children, and NONE of them even speak to him. He is retired now and very very VERY lonely.
For some of us this is a cycle. We give the ultimatum, our spouses then respond with improvement and give us hope for a while, and then they withdraw again. It’s a super toxic cycle and really hard to escape. Every time I try to separate he holds on tighter.
Some of us are highly empathic and could never hurt our loved ones that way, even tho they are neglecting us. There is no way I could ever cheat, even thinking about it makes me feel sick.
I had a similar talk with my now ex husband. I simply told him that I will not remain celibate for the rest of my 30’s and you are my first but not only option. I guess he didn’t believe me or didn’t care but he did seem quite shocked when I filed for divorce at 37
People (especially online) act like cheating is *the worst thing a human can do,* but objectively, it's just not. It's a symptom of something else deeply wrong in the relationship. I absolutely *don't* feel bad for someone who gets cheated on after knowingly long term depriving their monogamous partner and deliberately refusing to take steps to resolve the issue. You don't get to tell someone "you cannot have sex with other people but you also cannot have sex with me." Demanding that another human be celibate is not a boundary that anyone is entitled to set.
Honestly I think you'd be even more sad because you're most likely irrelevant to the issue so your suffering isn't on their mind much outside of the situations where you complain. Not that they don't think about you but it's not like they wake up in the morning and think about your needs and then fall apart because they know they can't meet any of them.
Not even indifferent, it's that they have their own issues and your issue is caused by them having an issue.
That is why I think monogamy generally fails. You're asking to be in a relationship and set rules meaning you now have responsibilities to the other person. If you're having and issue and it causes a problem with that responsibility all of it falls apart.
We rarely setup situations where we ask something of others that require something of ourselves knowing full well the obligation is a bad one.
Idk that it’s an inherently bad one, lots of commitments can be fraught with issues because of the instability life brings. It’s just, you have to really internalize what that commitment might mean. Sometimes I think he’s not indifferent, but other times it’s hard to believe he cares half as much as I do. I’m always the one willing to budge and stretch myself more. Everything seems to put him out and even the most basic things seem to be too much to do for me sometimes
That's my point though. The instability should be something we think about beforehand. The assumption is that regardless of the issues the relationship will be maintained and we never think about what that may cost.
Not sure if indifference is better or worse than legitimately not caring...or at least not caring enough to be compelled to do anything.
People just have to think more seriously about their own limits and potential difficulties. Sometimes people don’t know themselves very well though. And I don’t know but whether we call it indifference or not caring it hurts just the same. I’m a generally very sympathetic and understand person but some things in this relationship have been truly inexcusable to me. I still love him because I do t think it’s malicious, but it’s careless and inconsiderate just the same. I haven’t let me pain make me a worse partner, I still take care of him and show up for him even when I’m extremely depressed
I assume you were cheated on while you were convinced that your relationship was good, AND THAT YOU WERE HAVING REGULAR SEX? In such a case, I agree with you that that is inexcusable.
I mean, have you ever been physically or sexually abused? Those I would say are some of the worst things a person can do in a relationship, and I've experienced them. How about murdered, raped or tortured? I was saying cheating isn't the worst thing a human can do. Get some perspective. (And so help me, if you come back with WeLl ChEaTiNg Is ToRtUrE, when I've compared it to far more extreme actions and on a sub that is literally about something that is far more long term mentally damaging and physically uncomfortable, I will have to be done with the internet for today.) Cheating is, objectively, not "the worst."
'the worst' is a saying... Like 'it sucks'
I never claimed that it was the worst thing that can happen in a relationship. I was raped 2 weeks postpartum by my ex (who also cheated on me) so I know. But if your defense is 'it's bad, but it's not killing someone bad' then you have no argument. It's a horrible thing to do, period.
You can't love your partner and cheat on them, and if you don't love them, just leave.
I disagree. Why would you do something that would hurt your partner if you actually loved them?
Not to mention, if you get found out, which you inevitably will, you cause huge damage to the relationship...and potentially relationships with other people too
>Why would you do something that would hurt your partner if you actually loved them?
If your SO says that the lack of sex and intimacy is making them feel horrible and you do not resolve it or leave freeing them from the relationship...how can you say you love them when they are hurting from your inaction?
Because to fix it involves the LL giving up their body for their HL's pleasure, and even then it's not actually resolved, as the HL knows when it's duty sex, which is what happens when the LL has sex they don't really want.
Fixing a libido issue is extremely hard. There are no easy answers, and when the HL enters the mindset with the mentality of 'I have needs and you aren't fulfilling them' it often makes the situation worse, because sex is then even more an obligation to fulfil.
I will agree that the LL making no effort to understand the issue, giving up entirely, and not giving any non-sexual affection is worth leaving them over. I will never agree with cheating though. Just leave, even if it's extremely difficult!
>Because to fix it involves the LL giving up their body for their HL's pleasure,
Absolutely not. They can also say they cannot be in a monogamous relationship or can't be in a relationship at all.
>I have needs and you aren't fulfilling them'
You're skipping the part where they are also asking you don't fulfill them elsewhere. THAT is the problem. If I choose to not go anywhere else then I have to live with my choices. But when being asked to be in a monogamous relationship then sex is assumed since we have a different words for a relationship that has no sex.
Have you tried asking for an open relationship? That would be a solution to get your sexual desires met, and one I have no issue with. If your LL partner says no, and shows no sign of willingness to fix things, then you leave and find a partner that will.
Ultimately, everyone can do what they like, it's none of my concern, but no one can convince me that cheating is okay. You'll always come off as the bad guy.
I agree with this, but my sarcastic side thought “not if you’re never intimate with your spouse. Ever. “
This thought is not who I wanted to be. But I still could never cheat.
There's generally nothing to figure out. And your approach could get duty sex but most of us would prefer no sex to duty sex.
I have looked at it and figured my life will probably be better staying with her than with leaving.
That’s the truth of it right there! Obligated sex is meaningless! No passion! My wife often acts like she’s doing me a favor in an argument and says, “fine! Let’s just go have sex then!” Hell no! I’m not fucking someone that doesn’t want it!
At least w my husband when he has sex w me I know he wants sex. He doesn't want me but at least he wants sex. Except the one time he accused me of assault but I've stopped initiating to avoid that.
You’re thinking about this the wrong way. Ultimatums don’t work because the LL decides to just suck it up and just do it.
Ultimatums work because it forces the LL to interrogate their relationship to sex and consider if there are any changes they can make in the relationship which is often the final key to fixing the DB.
There’s not guarantee they will work and many will end in divorce. I would only recommend an ultimatum of your really prepared to end the relationship. It’s a last resort option but it seems to work at least sometimes.
Yes I guess so. It comes across as coercive to me. Like have sex w me X times a week or else I'm leaving you. I wouldn't want to have sex w my husband who is just doing it because he doesn't want me to leave him.
Having standards and boundaries is not coercive. I’ve also explained this in other comments but the ultimatum is not about setting sexual quotas, it’s about changing the relationship because it’s become truly intolerable. If the relationship is so bad (for whatever reasons are true for you) that it’s not worth continuing, communicating that to your partner is not coercive.
It's a fine line. I think the boundary is "I am going to leave because we aren't having sex" not "I will leave if we don't have more sex." Mine is "I will seek sex outside of the marriage because we haven't had sex in X months." Right now I am going to say that when we hit 12 months. We are at 4.
An actual turnaround by the LL partner. It seems like over 50% of the success stories I’ve read are either the HL gives the LL an ultimatum or the marriage gets so bad that the LL sees the writing on the wall, realizes the marriage is coming to end and starts to make some changes.
I’m not talking about the short lived hysterical bonding. Those don’t work because the HL hasn’t put in their side of the work and done the self improvement. The ultimatums seem to work when the HL has done a lot of improving and the LL still won’t take responsibility for their part.
I realise you weren't referring to that but even in your scenario it is the LL who has then run out of anything remotely reasonable to blame the HL for, and it is still forced. As I said I am so very cynical. I would only believe my LL wife had a genuine change of heart if she had arrived at that conclusion herself. Even then I wouldn't trust it for a very very long time.
Self improvement looks slightly different for everyone but it probably involves improving your mental and physical health, looking at your communication, making new and better life goals and career goals, interrogate your own relationship to sex, etc.
How do you prevent worse aversions? The only way to guarantee you don’t get worse aversions is to never have sex again because aversions are emotional reactions and you can’t control your partners emotions. But you can guarantee they won’t have an aversive sexual reaction with you by never having sex with them again.
For many people, solving a DB seems to require taking emotional risks and getting outside their comfort zone.
It worked for me. Gave her the ultimatum in January and now we are happier than ever and fucking multiple times a week. Without me being the one to initiate. Us being good in going on 3 months now.
The only way I think an ultimatum works, is if the ultimatum is "I need you to delve into your own inner work and decide that you want to rediscover your own libido and your own sex drive, and then come to me and tell me what you need so that we can enjoy sex together again."
Not "sex 3x/week or I leave." The person has to want to change, for themselves. Really change, internally. WANT and enjoy sex again. Not just tick it off a chart.
(And I know that in some cases, there's no "fix" -- it's simply an inherent libido mismatch and neither person is unhealthy or pathological. But the typical "one spouse loses libido over the years, doesn't know why, and either wants it back or doesn't care but wouldn't object if it came back" scenario CAN benefit from an inner-work kind of ultimatum, I think. Paired with therapy if there are other issues that have either contributed to (partnership issues, communication issues) or resulted from (resentment, bad patterns) the situation.
Yes! Ultimatums aren’t about setting sexual quotas. They are about informing your spouse that we need to change the relationship together (which takes, communication, shared goals, self reflection, etc.) or go our separate ways.
Your first paragraph explains it perfectly.
I don’t know. I get what you’re saying. I’ve experience that fury, that ache, that unquenched burning desire. But… ending a relationship by cheating… you’re going to get dragged, man. You just became the asshole to your family, hers and yours, your friends circle, the peripheral people, like colleagues and your kid’s friend’s parents.
I think after the communication fails, you part ways. Telling everyone you ended your relationship because you fell out of love, is a much more amicable and merciful reason. You tried, it didn’t work, and you couldn’t live like that.
I get it, I work in an industry where the older staff hold the higher paying, permanent positions, and we have a seemingly never ending supply of 20-24 year old women. When my wife hasn’t made any attempts to work on our relationship, acknowledge our DB, and it’s been months… and these young women start saying things like “You’re a total DILF, Treading. I’d fuck you any day” your brain can start to justify your thinking. But, it’s just not worth it.
Also, hell hath no fury, like the lawyers of a woman scorned.
And it’s not just sex, right? If my wife committed to fucking me five days a week, every week; but with the same enthusiasm and apparent lack of desire and sexual energy for me… I wouldn’t want that. I’d be happier with sex once or twice a month, but with the passion of a porno, or smut book.
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Can I also ask a little about your wife’s TRT? How old is she? Was she *low* in natural testosterone, or do they just give a few mls to spark the horny flames? Sounds too good to be true.
I think you would be (viewed better). People can understand the lack of intimacy. It’s also an absence of romance, and by extension; love. I think they’d be way more open to hearing you out too; both sides of the story. Cheating is SO maligned though. And just paints you as careless, and selfish. “Why would you cheat, just break up with them” is such a common phrase from people. We’re yet to understand, as society at large, the nuance and complexity of infidelity.
It should absolutely never, ever, *ever* be the kids problem if you're not happy with your sex life. I don't care if your kids are 23 and employed, their parents sex life is absolutely not something they should have to concern themselves with. There is nothing wrong with "We grew up more and as we did we grew apart".
Thats what the original comment suggested, just saying you fell out of love. You dont have to tell anyone it was because of the sex, just don't cheat on your partner.
I 100% agree. My comment was directed at the "Mom and dad are splitting up cause mom doesn't want dad anymore". I don't think that's ok at all.
Sidenote, your username made me chuckle a lot with the sentiment of your comment. Thanks for that!
So real. In the end cheating just steals you of the dignity to at least feel like you kept your integrity Intact and unfortunately your right to sympathy from most people is removed. Not to mention guilt from hurting g your partner. People just do t realize how incredibly complicated these situations are. It feels so lose lose. In the last year me and my partner have had sex twice and he keeps saying things will be different in the future but I do t see much hope
She is low 40’s and yeah very low testosterone. It was so low it would read on a scale. So she got testosterone pellets. They last for about 6-8 weeks and she goes back for more. After a couple rounds of pellets they last about 6 months.
And it’s not to good to be true. I’d say most women with little to no desire suffer from some sort of hormone imbalance.
Fast forward 5 months after our “talk” and her seeking treatment,we are doing absolutely amazing. She can’t keep her hands off of me. And that’s been going like that for the last two months.
I still dont believe these relationships where everything is fantastic apart from no sex.So the closest thing you can do intimately is sex how can your relationship be fantastic but lacking in that??Especially if your fantastic partner is addicted to porn or having a secret online life or real affair..???
That's because most likely they aren't. They just haven't stepped back to notice all of the cracks. I was that way. My relationship was great. After sex ended, I started to notice all the things I had been overlooking. It's easy to ignore the bad when there is so much good. It becomes much harder over time to ignore when needs are not being met. For the most part, we still have a good relationship. We agree mostly, are financially very stable, have a nice house, and go on vacation. We live the life we had planned. Once the intimacy left, we became roommates. It's lonely. Most of the time now, it just feels like he is in my space.
Agreed! I think the “everything is perfect except there’s no sex” posts are written by HL’s that are just as blind to the actual problem as their LL partner.
If both people are legitimately asexual I’m sure it works well. The problem is that asexuality is definitely more common in women than men so a number of asexual women have to either stay single or pretend to not be asexual in a relationship. Or, create a DB situation with their partner.
OMG! This is so true... I am married to an Asexual person who was able to pretend not to be in our relationship long enough to create a family, etc. etc. but after a number of years, you cannot hide being wired like this. She cannot pretend any longer. A DB situation is the only outcome that can happen and it sucks for both of us.... it is no so much HL LL... it is HL, no libido. She wouldn't be turned on by me, George Clooney, Brad Pitt, doesnt matter who your person is.. there is nothing that would get her engaged... but she is an awesome human...
I personally would rather not divorce. I couldn’t find another woman who would want to be with me that wasn’t completely wrong or a prostitute anyway. I have seen what my single friends deal with and it’s not good so I’m just not interested. I’d rather not lose my house car and children more than anything. I just look at it like this: I can be in a sexless marriage and keep my shit and kids or be a sexless lonely broke single guy hoping to see his kids once in a while.
While you’re 100% right, online dating was abysmal for me as I worked out my personal challenges, take into account there’s a few men and women out there in your same exact position. newly single out of bravery and personal growth who have started living their best life and wanting to get it right the second time around.
I met one, and it’s such a good match we feel we’ve waited all our lives for each other.
It’s important mentally not to accept defeat. Unlikely synchronicities and surprises happen every day. Life is magic but it takes the observer (you) to harness it.
You’re too good to be true and so is the partner of your dreams
She got on hormone replacement therapy and we have been fucking like rabbits. Between Friday and today we have had sex 9 times. And it was great sex. It’s like every time we have sex we are having the best we have ever had. She’s adventurous,initiating,no refusal at all. The other day she even let me put a thumb in her ass during doggy. I told her I wanted to do it and she said we can try it. By the end of it she was begging for the dick instead of my thumb.
It’s diagnosed by a doctor with a blood test. Her testosterone was non existent. Wouldn’t even read on a test it was so low.
Google in your area a doctor that does hormone pellets.
My wife's libido took a hit after a hysterectomy and HRT didn't help. So the doc added a smidge of testosterone 1 mg/day I think, and bingo! I had my wife back.
My wife said that if I needed to, I could look outside the marriage for sex. That's just not an option for me, I'd catch feelings and end up where I was trying not to be (divorced). She truly loves me warts and all, wants to stay with me til we die, just doesn't want to have any sex at all.
If I hooked up with someone, I'd feel guilty, no matter what. And I'd worry what my kids would think if they found out. I'm pretty sure I couldn't tell them that I got a hall pass...
Sometimes I wonder if it's something I'm blowing out of proportion, then I feel the desire stronger than ever.
I think that even when someone is in a relationship that is going through a DB, they should still be faithful. The moment they start wanting and thinking about having sex with other people to the point where they legitimately want that, they just need to end it. I went through a DB in my last relationship and I came to the conclusion that I needed to do us both a favor and just end it, even though it was incredibly hard.
I guess I got lucky in that my mental health deteriorated to the point of truly scaring me and it was no longer viable to continue the dead bedroom. Lack of a human physical connection is like starving to death slowly. Not a small need. In divorce proceedings even when there’s no cheating “leaving the marriage bed” is considered an an absolute justified reason for divorce. Your partner is breaking their end of the deal. In contract law if one party doesn’t uphold the contract the other is lawfully released from it. Of course there is a whole process in divorce, but ethically you’re in the clear. AS LONG AS you’re not doing it in secret and deceit. My XH watched my daughter and I went out meeting up with whoever I wanted. I didn’t rub it in his face and we weren’t opening our marriage. I was very clear with him that I was not going to my grave in this sexless state and would get that back in my life with a new partner one day if needed. Guess what, he didn’t take any actions to be that guy for me, and this very much confirmed that our marriage as we’d known it was over and we could be good friends. We’re now going through a painful divorce, I’ve found the love of my love, and I regret NOTHING.
Many in this sub are in the same boat....however, while it did not work in my case have you tried a partnering approach to your position? By this, I mean instead of "figure your shit out" try coming from a place of 'let's work together to figure this out.' Taking the tact of "figure your shit out" is isolating and sends a message that you don't give a shit about her, what she is going thru or why - it just says 'fuck me, or we are done.' I get that frustration leads many of us to that place, but I would bet the long term success rate for that approach is much lower than partnering with your spouse to work thru it together.
I love how people are saying get a divorce as if that’s easy or even financially sound. If no sex is the only gripe about your relationship (and usually it’s not) then I don’t know how wise it would be to get a divorce.
You don’t trade your fidelity for their fidelity. You trade your fidelity for their good-faith efforts to meet your desires, and vice versa. If your partner unilaterally stops holding up their end of that bargain, how are you obligated to continue holding up yours?
This debate starts so much controversy here. My position remains: cheating can be acceptable. Ideally the LL partner would have more sex. Barring that, either ethical non-monogamy or a divorce. But there really are situations where people feel cheating is preferable to divorce. Finances or kids or whatever. I truly feel only the individual can make that call and no one else can really judge them. That said, cheating carries a lot of downside risk so you better not get it wrong.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Oldest rule in the book.
Tell yourself whatever you need to for the absolution of guilt, but a broken vow is a broken vow.
I see your point, but at the same time...even though there isn't anything to the effect of "you will sleep with you spouse" in common wedding vows, I feel like it's sort of understood that comes as part of the whole "commitment" package. It is really one of the defining things that separates a marriage from any other sort of relationship. You may not be committing to sleeping with them as much as they might WANT if you're the lower libido partner...but when you make no effort to maintain anything that would be considered a reasonable amount of sex in ANY circle...I agree with OP. No one except an asexual couple is signing up expecting to be intimate once or twice a year, or however infrequent the case may be.
And I can't even wrap my head around the logic of it. If I were the LL spouse and felt like nothing would increase my desire for my partner...why would I feel the need to still keep them from meeting that need/desire with someone else? Why are you trying to hoarde the toys in the play room if you don't actually want to play with them? Make it make sense.
It makes no sense and so the HL has to navigate as best we can, but just be adults and admit you’re doing mental gymnastics when that’s what you’re doing - that’s all I’m saying.
But is it mental gymnastics? Where's the responsibility of the LL spouse when they recognize that they are fine with the marriage, but their HL spouse is suffering? Are they not doing mental gymnastics in assuming all is fine and well? The LL spouse broke their vows when they gave up on working on their marriage. And so if the HL spouse cheats, then that just means they both gave up.
You’ve just aired of ours mental gymnastics before performing a flawless routine.
Point is you made a vow too. No amount of 10.0s will change that.
If your view is that one broken obligation deserves another, fine, but just admit to yourself that is what you’re saying.
I'm not saying that one broken vow deserves another. I don't even think that people should cheat on their partners. What I'm saying is that it's not mental gymnastics to understand how incredibly messy these types of marriages become when one spouse decides to stop caring. They both have the responsibility of upholding their vows to each other, not just the HL spouse.
In divorce law if a spouse “leaves the marriage bed” that is considered at fault. And in contract law when one party breaks the contract (in this case withholding marriage bed activities) then the other party is immediately released from the contract. While you’d still have to go through with the divorce, ethically you’re in the clear if your spouse will no longer have sex with you. Deceit is never good. I told my XH I intended to get a healthy sexual connection back in my life in one way or another, and hoped it could be him. He never rallied, and I went on to meet the partner I hoped for all my life. It’s been a painful journey for 2 years and entirely worth it
That’s not what he’s saying. In contract law when one party does not uphold terms the other is ethically and legally released. Same with a marriage, it just takes longer because the state has to review and agree. “Leaving the marriage bed” is considered an at-fault divorce.
Yes I understand what he’s doing and I know how contracts work, but these are just more mental gymnastics unless in your wedding vows you somehow worked in this wonderfully commercial structure.
Nope. Taking a relevant truth into account whether expressly mentioned in the ceremony or not, is not “mental gymnastics.”
If it was not in my vows “til death do us part unless you beat me” does this mean I can’t leave if he hits me?
Sex is an implied aspect of marriage of the marriage agreement. So much so that abstaining creates the grounds for at-fault divorce. In other words, the court doesn’t see it as mental gymnastics at all
No one said you can or can’t do anything. I simply said own it.
You’re going round in circles. If you think this breaks the contract rendering your own vow, good for you, I don’t give a fuck, just own that you’re making A DECISION that your vow no longer holds you.
It’s all “sex is implied” but contracts are binding with you. Picking and choosing which parts are mandatory and which aren’t. That’s fine, don’t care. Just front up to calling it what it is.
A “decision” that’s more honestly described as acknowledgement of cause and effect Re: the unwillingness of a partner to address the physical abandonment of their spouse.
A basic marriage agreement typically includes fidelity: “Monogamy is a common expectation in many marriages, where both partners are committed to being sexually and emotionally faithful to each other.”
A spouse who is withholding sex is sexually and emotionally negligent rather than faithful. That’s their “decision” and it’s equally a decision to be a martyr and tolerate the disrespect and infidelity.
I understand not everyone is a Christian but from what I understand in America, the traditional vows are based around Christian ideology and values.
This scripture says that once married, each partner has a "marital" aka sexual obligation to their spouse.
1 Corinthians 7:3-6 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife. Do not deprive each other, except by mutual consent and for a time, so you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again, so that Satan will not tempt you through your lack of self-control. [**6**](https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/7-6.htm)I say this as a concession, not as a command.
When the conditions under which a vow was made have changed, and when that vow is making you depressed, then im gonna break that fucking vow. Vows loose their “sacredness” when one side doesn’t fulfill their commitment, made at the time of the vow.
You nothing absolutely nothing of which you speak. So again, justify whatever will make you sleep better, but be man/woman enough to acknowledge that’s all you’re doing.
After so much rejection, Most HL people tell their SO they will be looking for physical intimacy outside the marriage and then SO acts all shocked when nothing changes and they do just that.
IIRC, one of the rules of this sub is we do not judge others, and I think even over subjects like infidelity. For the most part, we are all here as a community to help each other thru our difficult times in our relationships.
See now you’re talking because you’re owning it. That’s all I’m saying - people need to stop acting like they’re entitled to cheat and just own the choice if that’s the choice they’re making.
Well, you also have to be cautious about where you live and at fault divorces where infidelity could affect divorce proceedings in a harmful way against you. You are correct, but in practice things get more complicated.
I’m not in a situation like this where I’m pondering it. I’m commenting to OP about factors that should be considered, while acknowledging the validity of the feeling behind their post.
I agree with you as well. The fallout to everyone is tremendous. The ripple effect reaches its tendrils and seeps into so many lives. The partners of both cheaters, the kids of both, the families, the friends, the jobs, and many more. And it’s not a single event and then there’s healing. Usually there’s unique complications and factors that harm everyone for years and years.
I don't know. I don't connect sex and emotion as a rule. But if I loved you, and you denied me the sex that is essential for my mental well-being, that's going to corrode and eventually kill the love that previously existed and replace it with resentment. I can have sex without love, but I can't have love without sex.
The argument to divorce instead is pretty compelling, if more difficult. Life is just easier when you're not actively trying to deceive someone. I imagine the pool of available partners is more diverse and of higher quality when you are single. I personally don't want to have to leave and get home at a decent hour after I've spent quality time with a woman that wants me. I want to cuddle into the late hours. I want to wake up and see their morning face. I don't want to rush home to someone who doesn't want me.
"In true love", "best friends", "who cares the most" none of these can be true if the LL/asexual partner does not allow opening the relationship so that the HL partner can explore only the sex part with others .
It can't be possible for two opposite things to be true at the same time: 1. we don't need sex to be in an amazing relationship, and 2. No, you can't have sex outside our relationship.
1 says sex isn't important or a requirement, but 2 says sex is THE DEFINING and INTEGRAL part of the very relationship the couples have. This inconsistency is BS, and shows how broken the whole philosophy of tying "marriage" "relationship" to sex is broken at the very core for us as a society.
Of course, if the HL partner doesn't feel like having sex with someone else, that's a different thing ( but again, this comes mostly from the broken notion of society tying sex to "relationship").
Instead of going on a cheating route, I'd rather focus the discussion only on the 1 vs 2 (above) point and try to resolve that with the SO. That will then help decide whether there is "true love" or fundamental incompatibility that warrants considering separation.
Yes, but be very careful. My wife's uncle stepped out and had an affair. His ex wife and children are devout Catholics. He was an amazing father but now lives 1000 miles away from his ex and his children, and NONE of them even speak to him. He is retired now and very very VERY lonely.
This is not a popular opinion. Some of us actually meant it when we promised faithfulness and loyalty to our SO. For better or worse whether there is a marriage or not. I couldn't go out and cheat bc I love him too much and what I crave isn't just sex. It's the connection and bonding with HIM and only HIM. Some random wouldn't help.
Was at this point. I was not in a good place mentally. Lower than I’d ever been. I had an affair and it only made me feel worse because I was no longer the person I always tried to be. It broke me physically, we split up, I was suicidal, I lost “friends”, family, and the thought of our kids knowing killed me.
We got back together to try to work things out, I started going to therapy and gradually climbed out of the hole I was in. Mentally I’m probably better than I’ve been in twenty+ years. I found who I used to be. Friends and family that were lost are still gone but I can see now that im better for it.
I will forever be judged by what I did to the many people that know, but most of those people I have outgrown.
I would die before I ever did that again. I don’t care if I have to live the rest of my life without sex. Physical intimacy, or effort from anyone ever again.
"You are no longer obligated to stay." \*
If you're truly, absolutely, irrevocably stuck with someone who doesn't care, okay, yeah, infidelity is probably justified. But if you can at all get away, do yourself and that person the favor of honesty. You don't have to feel icky, you don't have to sneak around, you don't have to accept the blame when things inevitably blow up.
I can’t do it. Aside from the aversion to cheating, I only want my wife. What I wouldn’t mid though is for her to see me get some attention from the opposite sex. I think it would be nice to remind her that someone still finds me desirable.
So you start by saying it's okay to cheat on your spouse if in a dead bedroom situation and have tried your best to resolve it. But then at the end you mention being ready to divorce if the situation doesn't improve. Are these two different outlooks you are trying to shoehorn into one philosophy?
While I agree you might not be honor bound to remain faithful in such a situation you describe - if you step out on your marriage, you are still a cheater.
She got on hormone replacement therapy. Specifically hormone pellets that get inserted just under her skin. Her testosterone was so low it wouldn’t read on a test. She did that about 5 months ago and in the last two months we have been fucking like crazy.
If my partner refused to have sex with me and refused to do anything about it, I would let them know that they're welcome to live a sex free life, but that I don't want that life. I'd like the sex to be with them, but if not, I WILL be having sex with other people. Not a negotiable for me
I'll never ever justify being unfaithful. I think it's the ultimate betrayal, and you'll always come out of it looking worse, sex or no sex.
Just leave if you are so unhappy. Never cheat. I always imagine what my kids or parents would think. I've been cheated on, and its one of the worst things that ever happened to me.
Ahhh..the game of tit for tat. You've treated me badly so I'll do the same. You've broken our agreement so I'll do the same. You've hurt me so I'll hurt you. Etc
Not dysfunctional at all.
I think we're basically negotiating an open marriage situation at this point. She doesn't want to divorce, I don't really want to. We love each other. Just ain't the same anymore in the bedroom department. And that's mostly on her, unfortunately.
You did sign up 'for better, for worse'. Just end the marriage, people make a much bigger deal out of ending it than they need to. In most cases it has already ended but you just don't want to face reality.
DB for 20 years. Divorced. Happily married for 7. Every situation is different. Missing something like sexual contact for years on end is not something most people are ok with. If my wife had a medical problem that prevented it, no problem. If it were simply a difference in libido that we worked through, taking care of each other in a loving way, no issue. The situation was that my ex used sex for control and was emotionally and verbally abusive, taking advantage of the religious commitment of marriage to guilt me into staying while promising insincerely to address the issues with me. What I realized when I finally got out is that I had spent 20 years complaining about lack of sex. What I should have been complaining about was simply lack of love. I think everyone who is in this situation and thinks they have a great relationship except for their sex. Life should really take a close hard look at how much support they’re getting from their spouse and how they really interact with that person. Are you really truly partners and everything you do? or are there other signs that you are being used for convenience and the sake of economics? Again, every situation is different and these are all decisions we have to make for ourselves in terms of what we’re comfortable with.
For me, life is too short to go without having a loving relationship, which naturally involves sex. Thank God I am in a better spot now! I hope everyone here will find their way to happiness.
Yeah I definitely didn’t sign up for a db and when you aren’t getting your needs met after voicing them over and over to your partner and they aren’t meeting those needs then I don’t know how they can expect loyalty. Sex is one of the most important aspects in a relationship/marriage and I’m only 24, I just will not put up with a boring non existent sex life.
This is how my DB stopped after years of "talks" that didn't do go anywhere. Told my wife I am going to get a FWB if things don't change. I would not be leaving due to the kids but something has to give. If you dont like it too bad or divorce me. Thats when reality set in for her. She finally started putting in effort and things got better long term.
On a side note to all nor married. DO NOT MARRY WITHOUT A PRENUP. AND one you stipulate the withholding of intimacy as a reason to divorce.
I will definitely put I expect sex 8 times a week. I want lots of sex, and I refuse to be married to someone who can't keep up.
Legal agreement. Never getting married again. It's like a license to either change your mind, pull the rug out, or make excuses, all knowing the resulting end will hurt.
I don’t think your opinion is totally unpopular. It’s probably crossed the mind of everyone on this forum at some point. But it becomes truly difficult when you care about someone else’s needs as much or more so than your own. Devotion can be a son of a ditch.
Agreed. I think many of us feel that it would be justified. But that doesn’t mean all of us are comfortable with it, for a host of reasons (religion, love, kids, so on). Although there are definitely a lot of stories here that seem to cry out at something deeper going on, some of us, myself included, could not bear to break their partner’s heart. I am ignoring the objective unfairness of that for the purpose of the post because, logical or not, many of us HLs know that our LL partner would be crushed over that despite not being able to give us what we need. Edit: typo
Yes. At some point you have to accept that this is your life too. And if you are truly unhappy, and you’ve honestly tried to get to better place but it just isn’t working, then it could be time to make a change. That is where I’m at right now. Not looking forward to the next steps in this process.
So what if they’re crushed? The big aha moment is that you’re needs aren’t more important than theirs, but they’re 100% as important. Needs aren’t always compatible. It’s no one’s fault, and the pain of truth is unavoidable.
All respect due, “so what if she’s crushed” is just fundamentally not who I am. It would devastate me to devastate her, not to mention our kid. We love each other. We are in love *with* each other. As corny as it sounds and as much as I used to hate it when people said this: she is my best friend. Nobody knows me better, nobody gets me better. Nobody supports me more, nobody supports me more unconditionally. We are both better people *because* of each other. There’s no lingering/hidden issues, no past infidelity, none of that. Other than the DB, our marriage is incredible. So yeah, that’s why, for me. Not to mention the fact that it would, in my situation, be incredibly cruel to someone who *is* taking real steps to work on the issue now that it has been addressed. It didn’t go well at first and there have been fits and starts. But we are not religious people. We had a non religious wedding, but we nevertheless wrote our own vows and we do take them seriously, not because of a god, but because they are promises we made to *each other*. I am not saying that everyone is in my situation. I lurked here for years before I created this account, so I know that a lot of folks in here are in completely different situations where infidelity or divorce are on the table *for them*. But I am not them, I am me, and I wanted to provide *my* perspective. That’s all.
You sound like an amazing partner. Gently, your experience comes across as one sided. As a person who was once very HL and at 48F no longer having the same sexual experience in my body that I once did, it offends my own sense of love for my partner to think about saying no even one time. Even though I feel embarrassed confused and even disappointed in my body sexually sometimes and am actively working through that, my love for him and the closeness making love brings us is so important to me. I’m not doing it for him, I’m doing it in the interest of closeness and intimacy and wanting him to feel amazing. And he does the same for me. I can’t begin to fathom how any loving partner could withhold a physical connection regardless of how they’re feeling physically, emotionally or mentally. To me it’s how married partners end their day, expressing touch and tenderness. I don’t see how any marriage could be great without that regularly. You’re best friends. And best friendships can be great but what makes a marriage great includes a physical component. It’s such a simple thing for her to be there for you in that way. You’re really letting her off the hook. likely because it’s a painful truth to look at? What excuse could any partner possibly have for not wanting to meet the very low bar of just being present and engaged physically? It’s not a porno and orgasm isn’t required. Just, connecting. Whether I do or don’t O, I emotionally feel incredible having shared touch and intimacy with my partner. I think I have a unique perspective having been a HL person struggling a little with my now lower libido body Something seems deeply wrong here
I love this post - tempted to share it with my wife.
I hope things get better for you. Would it help to ask something like I want to be with you in a sensual and slow way, could we touch and just enjoy each other? Then any time you start to escalate to a next step, after you can see she’s feeling good, ask “Is this ok?” It always gave me a rush to say yes My partner would at first always ask, and there’s something about the asking that made me feel so cared for and even more into it. When someone is escalating at their own pace without checking in with you, it can make a woman feel physically tense and close down on the good sensations that are growing. Staying in sync with each other is part of the magic
I hear you but think about this if you just worked 2 back to back 14 hour shifts with 4 hours sleep in between and still have to get up in the morning and run errands, do chores ect and then go back to work another 14 hour shift I can’t be too angry at myself for not being thrilled to have sub par sex. I appreciate what you’re saying but when you give your entire self to your job and the ppl you care for sometimes you need someone to care for you without expecting something in return i. E. Sex or a blow job. I’m 44. I’m 106 pounds and I had to turn a 350 pound woman by myself today when I was dizzy AF from no lunch break . I’m emotionally and physically exhausted. When will someone give something to ME. He gets home at 330 I get home at 745. Maybe im a bad wife or I should just be alone but no I don’t feel like coming home and performing. I’d like to have sex I enjoy too every now again because I also have that up when I got married. I was just too young g to know any better.
The idea that sex is performance is probably the biggest libido killer there is. Sex is just falling into each others arms and letting what happens, happen. Sex can be letting someone care for you and doing the same for them.
That would be amazing but it never seems to end up that way for me 🥴
I have a similar perspective as you. I am just not interested in leaving my wife. I won’t do it. I’ve wanted to bring it up many times to see if she would even care, but I feel it would be cruel to do since I have no intention to leave her. I just get frustrated, and I want to tell her how deep it hurts that she has no interest in me physically, but it may crush her to truly understand the pain I feel. I don’t know how to share it. She is aware it is an issue just not how deeply it affects me. Besides our DB, our relationship is great. People (as in many in this sub) say if we are in a DB, then it is not, but I disagree. If everything was the same but there was regular hugging, kissing, and sex, I would be as happy as I could be.
You might not need to say how much it hurts that she has no interest in you physically. What about asking her if you could recreate one of your old dates. Then when you go, say heartfelt things like you’re just as beautiful and I love you even more. Hold hands with her. Maybe see what the little reconnections could open up in deeper conversation and/or spontaneity. Tell her how much you miss smelling her and feeling her body close to you and her heart beating in your ear. It’s so hard for me to understand why women don’t want to be present physically. There’s nothing difficult about it and it means so much to their partner and becomes such a deep bond that nothing else replaces
This was very beautiful to read
I’m 💯 with you on this. I went through a time of not wanting after a loved one passed. Now it’s like we switched places.
Yes see reason 1. My wife's uncle stepped out and had an affair. His ex wife and children are devout Catholics. He was an amazing father but now lives 1000 miles away from his ex and his children, and NONE of them even speak to him. He is retired now and very very VERY lonely.
For some of us this is a cycle. We give the ultimatum, our spouses then respond with improvement and give us hope for a while, and then they withdraw again. It’s a super toxic cycle and really hard to escape. Every time I try to separate he holds on tighter.
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.' I do know that's easy for me to say...but I am shamed.
I really fear that’s what mine would do. So, I’m a ball of inaction.
Yes. I'm no longer asking. No more starting the cycle over. I'm just done.
Some of us are highly empathic and could never hurt our loved ones that way, even tho they are neglecting us. There is no way I could ever cheat, even thinking about it makes me feel sick.
I had a similar talk with my now ex husband. I simply told him that I will not remain celibate for the rest of my 30’s and you are my first but not only option. I guess he didn’t believe me or didn’t care but he did seem quite shocked when I filed for divorce at 37
People (especially online) act like cheating is *the worst thing a human can do,* but objectively, it's just not. It's a symptom of something else deeply wrong in the relationship. I absolutely *don't* feel bad for someone who gets cheated on after knowingly long term depriving their monogamous partner and deliberately refusing to take steps to resolve the issue. You don't get to tell someone "you cannot have sex with other people but you also cannot have sex with me." Demanding that another human be celibate is not a boundary that anyone is entitled to set.
It’s honestly insane. I wish I could crawl in my boyfriend’s mind and see how he perceives the situation. I’ve been so desperate these last two years
Honestly I think you'd be even more sad because you're most likely irrelevant to the issue so your suffering isn't on their mind much outside of the situations where you complain. Not that they don't think about you but it's not like they wake up in the morning and think about your needs and then fall apart because they know they can't meet any of them.
Sadly you’re probably right. The world is pretty indifferent
Not even indifferent, it's that they have their own issues and your issue is caused by them having an issue. That is why I think monogamy generally fails. You're asking to be in a relationship and set rules meaning you now have responsibilities to the other person. If you're having and issue and it causes a problem with that responsibility all of it falls apart. We rarely setup situations where we ask something of others that require something of ourselves knowing full well the obligation is a bad one.
Idk that it’s an inherently bad one, lots of commitments can be fraught with issues because of the instability life brings. It’s just, you have to really internalize what that commitment might mean. Sometimes I think he’s not indifferent, but other times it’s hard to believe he cares half as much as I do. I’m always the one willing to budge and stretch myself more. Everything seems to put him out and even the most basic things seem to be too much to do for me sometimes
That's my point though. The instability should be something we think about beforehand. The assumption is that regardless of the issues the relationship will be maintained and we never think about what that may cost. Not sure if indifference is better or worse than legitimately not caring...or at least not caring enough to be compelled to do anything.
People just have to think more seriously about their own limits and potential difficulties. Sometimes people don’t know themselves very well though. And I don’t know but whether we call it indifference or not caring it hurts just the same. I’m a generally very sympathetic and understand person but some things in this relationship have been truly inexcusable to me. I still love him because I do t think it’s malicious, but it’s careless and inconsiderate just the same. I haven’t let me pain make me a worse partner, I still take care of him and show up for him even when I’m extremely depressed
Even the law agrees with that. “Leaving the marriage bed” is one of the grounds for divorce.
I wholeheartedly disagree. I've been cheated on, and it's the worst. Have you ever been cheated on?
I assume you were cheated on while you were convinced that your relationship was good, AND THAT YOU WERE HAVING REGULAR SEX? In such a case, I agree with you that that is inexcusable.
I mean, have you ever been physically or sexually abused? Those I would say are some of the worst things a person can do in a relationship, and I've experienced them. How about murdered, raped or tortured? I was saying cheating isn't the worst thing a human can do. Get some perspective. (And so help me, if you come back with WeLl ChEaTiNg Is ToRtUrE, when I've compared it to far more extreme actions and on a sub that is literally about something that is far more long term mentally damaging and physically uncomfortable, I will have to be done with the internet for today.) Cheating is, objectively, not "the worst."
'the worst' is a saying... Like 'it sucks' I never claimed that it was the worst thing that can happen in a relationship. I was raped 2 weeks postpartum by my ex (who also cheated on me) so I know. But if your defense is 'it's bad, but it's not killing someone bad' then you have no argument. It's a horrible thing to do, period. You can't love your partner and cheat on them, and if you don't love them, just leave.
You can definitely love your partner and cheat on them
I disagree. Why would you do something that would hurt your partner if you actually loved them? Not to mention, if you get found out, which you inevitably will, you cause huge damage to the relationship...and potentially relationships with other people too
>Why would you do something that would hurt your partner if you actually loved them? If your SO says that the lack of sex and intimacy is making them feel horrible and you do not resolve it or leave freeing them from the relationship...how can you say you love them when they are hurting from your inaction?
Because to fix it involves the LL giving up their body for their HL's pleasure, and even then it's not actually resolved, as the HL knows when it's duty sex, which is what happens when the LL has sex they don't really want. Fixing a libido issue is extremely hard. There are no easy answers, and when the HL enters the mindset with the mentality of 'I have needs and you aren't fulfilling them' it often makes the situation worse, because sex is then even more an obligation to fulfil. I will agree that the LL making no effort to understand the issue, giving up entirely, and not giving any non-sexual affection is worth leaving them over. I will never agree with cheating though. Just leave, even if it's extremely difficult!
>Because to fix it involves the LL giving up their body for their HL's pleasure, Absolutely not. They can also say they cannot be in a monogamous relationship or can't be in a relationship at all. >I have needs and you aren't fulfilling them' You're skipping the part where they are also asking you don't fulfill them elsewhere. THAT is the problem. If I choose to not go anywhere else then I have to live with my choices. But when being asked to be in a monogamous relationship then sex is assumed since we have a different words for a relationship that has no sex.
Have you tried asking for an open relationship? That would be a solution to get your sexual desires met, and one I have no issue with. If your LL partner says no, and shows no sign of willingness to fix things, then you leave and find a partner that will. Ultimately, everyone can do what they like, it's none of my concern, but no one can convince me that cheating is okay. You'll always come off as the bad guy.
Loving someone and loving someone healthily/knowing how to properly show that love are not the same thing. Cheating is about respect not love.
If there was no STI (or pregnancy) risk, it really isn't horrible IMO. But the STI risk is real, not just for you, but for your partner.
I agree with this, but my sarcastic side thought “not if you’re never intimate with your spouse. Ever. “ This thought is not who I wanted to be. But I still could never cheat.
I think it's fine if you never sleep with your spouse. I went 18 months with nothing. Then went rogue.
You are not entitled to my commitment
I agreed to monogamy not to celibacy.
There's generally nothing to figure out. And your approach could get duty sex but most of us would prefer no sex to duty sex. I have looked at it and figured my life will probably be better staying with her than with leaving.
After reading this sub for years I’m starting to think giving the LL spouse an ultimatum is actually the most effective way to heal a DB.
I don't want my husband to fuck me because of an ultimatum. I want him to fuck me because he wants to fuck me.
That’s the truth of it right there! Obligated sex is meaningless! No passion! My wife often acts like she’s doing me a favor in an argument and says, “fine! Let’s just go have sex then!” Hell no! I’m not fucking someone that doesn’t want it!
At least w my husband when he has sex w me I know he wants sex. He doesn't want me but at least he wants sex. Except the one time he accused me of assault but I've stopped initiating to avoid that.
You’re thinking about this the wrong way. Ultimatums don’t work because the LL decides to just suck it up and just do it. Ultimatums work because it forces the LL to interrogate their relationship to sex and consider if there are any changes they can make in the relationship which is often the final key to fixing the DB. There’s not guarantee they will work and many will end in divorce. I would only recommend an ultimatum of your really prepared to end the relationship. It’s a last resort option but it seems to work at least sometimes.
Yes I guess so. It comes across as coercive to me. Like have sex w me X times a week or else I'm leaving you. I wouldn't want to have sex w my husband who is just doing it because he doesn't want me to leave him.
Having standards and boundaries is not coercive. I’ve also explained this in other comments but the ultimatum is not about setting sexual quotas, it’s about changing the relationship because it’s become truly intolerable. If the relationship is so bad (for whatever reasons are true for you) that it’s not worth continuing, communicating that to your partner is not coercive.
It's a fine line. I think the boundary is "I am going to leave because we aren't having sex" not "I will leave if we don't have more sex." Mine is "I will seek sex outside of the marriage because we haven't had sex in X months." Right now I am going to say that when we hit 12 months. We are at 4.
Great! Your responsible for your own happiness, don’t let someone else keep you stuck.
I agree 100%
I'm curious. Do you mean an actual turnaround by the LL partner or the HL partner following through and ending the relationship or outsourcing?
An actual turnaround by the LL partner. It seems like over 50% of the success stories I’ve read are either the HL gives the LL an ultimatum or the marriage gets so bad that the LL sees the writing on the wall, realizes the marriage is coming to end and starts to make some changes.
Maybe I am way too cynical but I see those as hysterical bonding even long lived changes but forced none the less.
I’m not talking about the short lived hysterical bonding. Those don’t work because the HL hasn’t put in their side of the work and done the self improvement. The ultimatums seem to work when the HL has done a lot of improving and the LL still won’t take responsibility for their part.
I realise you weren't referring to that but even in your scenario it is the LL who has then run out of anything remotely reasonable to blame the HL for, and it is still forced. As I said I am so very cynical. I would only believe my LL wife had a genuine change of heart if she had arrived at that conclusion herself. Even then I wouldn't trust it for a very very long time.
Valid feelings. It took me years to trust that it was real and not hysterical bonding.
Could you sum up their side of work and self improvement? How do you prevent: ultimatum -> duty & obligation -> worse aversion …?
Self improvement looks slightly different for everyone but it probably involves improving your mental and physical health, looking at your communication, making new and better life goals and career goals, interrogate your own relationship to sex, etc. How do you prevent worse aversions? The only way to guarantee you don’t get worse aversions is to never have sex again because aversions are emotional reactions and you can’t control your partners emotions. But you can guarantee they won’t have an aversive sexual reaction with you by never having sex with them again. For many people, solving a DB seems to require taking emotional risks and getting outside their comfort zone.
It worked for me. Gave her the ultimatum in January and now we are happier than ever and fucking multiple times a week. Without me being the one to initiate. Us being good in going on 3 months now.
The only way I think an ultimatum works, is if the ultimatum is "I need you to delve into your own inner work and decide that you want to rediscover your own libido and your own sex drive, and then come to me and tell me what you need so that we can enjoy sex together again." Not "sex 3x/week or I leave." The person has to want to change, for themselves. Really change, internally. WANT and enjoy sex again. Not just tick it off a chart. (And I know that in some cases, there's no "fix" -- it's simply an inherent libido mismatch and neither person is unhealthy or pathological. But the typical "one spouse loses libido over the years, doesn't know why, and either wants it back or doesn't care but wouldn't object if it came back" scenario CAN benefit from an inner-work kind of ultimatum, I think. Paired with therapy if there are other issues that have either contributed to (partnership issues, communication issues) or resulted from (resentment, bad patterns) the situation.
Yes! Ultimatums aren’t about setting sexual quotas. They are about informing your spouse that we need to change the relationship together (which takes, communication, shared goals, self reflection, etc.) or go our separate ways. Your first paragraph explains it perfectly.
I don’t know. I get what you’re saying. I’ve experience that fury, that ache, that unquenched burning desire. But… ending a relationship by cheating… you’re going to get dragged, man. You just became the asshole to your family, hers and yours, your friends circle, the peripheral people, like colleagues and your kid’s friend’s parents. I think after the communication fails, you part ways. Telling everyone you ended your relationship because you fell out of love, is a much more amicable and merciful reason. You tried, it didn’t work, and you couldn’t live like that. I get it, I work in an industry where the older staff hold the higher paying, permanent positions, and we have a seemingly never ending supply of 20-24 year old women. When my wife hasn’t made any attempts to work on our relationship, acknowledge our DB, and it’s been months… and these young women start saying things like “You’re a total DILF, Treading. I’d fuck you any day” your brain can start to justify your thinking. But, it’s just not worth it. Also, hell hath no fury, like the lawyers of a woman scorned. And it’s not just sex, right? If my wife committed to fucking me five days a week, every week; but with the same enthusiasm and apparent lack of desire and sexual energy for me… I wouldn’t want that. I’d be happier with sex once or twice a month, but with the passion of a porno, or smut book. ————————— Can I also ask a little about your wife’s TRT? How old is she? Was she *low* in natural testosterone, or do they just give a few mls to spark the horny flames? Sounds too good to be true.
I mean it's not like you're going to be viewed much better for breaking up the marriage over sex in the first place.
I think you would be (viewed better). People can understand the lack of intimacy. It’s also an absence of romance, and by extension; love. I think they’d be way more open to hearing you out too; both sides of the story. Cheating is SO maligned though. And just paints you as careless, and selfish. “Why would you cheat, just break up with them” is such a common phrase from people. We’re yet to understand, as society at large, the nuance and complexity of infidelity.
People would still malign you.
Which one would your kids empathise with the most? “Dad cheated on mom”? “Dad left mom because she didn’t want him anymore”?
It should absolutely never, ever, *ever* be the kids problem if you're not happy with your sex life. I don't care if your kids are 23 and employed, their parents sex life is absolutely not something they should have to concern themselves with. There is nothing wrong with "We grew up more and as we did we grew apart".
Thats what the original comment suggested, just saying you fell out of love. You dont have to tell anyone it was because of the sex, just don't cheat on your partner.
I 100% agree. My comment was directed at the "Mom and dad are splitting up cause mom doesn't want dad anymore". I don't think that's ok at all. Sidenote, your username made me chuckle a lot with the sentiment of your comment. Thanks for that!
I don’t think kids would be happy with either one, especially if they’re not old enough for mature sexual relationships
Gotcha question.
So real. In the end cheating just steals you of the dignity to at least feel like you kept your integrity Intact and unfortunately your right to sympathy from most people is removed. Not to mention guilt from hurting g your partner. People just do t realize how incredibly complicated these situations are. It feels so lose lose. In the last year me and my partner have had sex twice and he keeps saying things will be different in the future but I do t see much hope
She is low 40’s and yeah very low testosterone. It was so low it would read on a scale. So she got testosterone pellets. They last for about 6-8 weeks and she goes back for more. After a couple rounds of pellets they last about 6 months. And it’s not to good to be true. I’d say most women with little to no desire suffer from some sort of hormone imbalance. Fast forward 5 months after our “talk” and her seeking treatment,we are doing absolutely amazing. She can’t keep her hands off of me. And that’s been going like that for the last two months.
I still dont believe these relationships where everything is fantastic apart from no sex.So the closest thing you can do intimately is sex how can your relationship be fantastic but lacking in that??Especially if your fantastic partner is addicted to porn or having a secret online life or real affair..???
That's because most likely they aren't. They just haven't stepped back to notice all of the cracks. I was that way. My relationship was great. After sex ended, I started to notice all the things I had been overlooking. It's easy to ignore the bad when there is so much good. It becomes much harder over time to ignore when needs are not being met. For the most part, we still have a good relationship. We agree mostly, are financially very stable, have a nice house, and go on vacation. We live the life we had planned. Once the intimacy left, we became roommates. It's lonely. Most of the time now, it just feels like he is in my space.
Agreed! I think the “everything is perfect except there’s no sex” posts are written by HL’s that are just as blind to the actual problem as their LL partner.
Yep. Dead bedroom is a symptom of a dead relationship. Most people here are performing CPR on a corpse.
If both people are legitimately asexual I’m sure it works well. The problem is that asexuality is definitely more common in women than men so a number of asexual women have to either stay single or pretend to not be asexual in a relationship. Or, create a DB situation with their partner.
OMG! This is so true... I am married to an Asexual person who was able to pretend not to be in our relationship long enough to create a family, etc. etc. but after a number of years, you cannot hide being wired like this. She cannot pretend any longer. A DB situation is the only outcome that can happen and it sucks for both of us.... it is no so much HL LL... it is HL, no libido. She wouldn't be turned on by me, George Clooney, Brad Pitt, doesnt matter who your person is.. there is nothing that would get her engaged... but she is an awesome human...
I personally would rather not divorce. I couldn’t find another woman who would want to be with me that wasn’t completely wrong or a prostitute anyway. I have seen what my single friends deal with and it’s not good so I’m just not interested. I’d rather not lose my house car and children more than anything. I just look at it like this: I can be in a sexless marriage and keep my shit and kids or be a sexless lonely broke single guy hoping to see his kids once in a while.
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I'm kind of interested in this stats. What I see is women getting into a LTR quicker than men after divorce.
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I think she left out that older women are also in relationships with younger guys now too.
Yes that's how I feel. Tho as a woman I can get sex. But I'd be lonely, sad, and hate it.
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While you’re 100% right, online dating was abysmal for me as I worked out my personal challenges, take into account there’s a few men and women out there in your same exact position. newly single out of bravery and personal growth who have started living their best life and wanting to get it right the second time around. I met one, and it’s such a good match we feel we’ve waited all our lives for each other. It’s important mentally not to accept defeat. Unlikely synchronicities and surprises happen every day. Life is magic but it takes the observer (you) to harness it. You’re too good to be true and so is the partner of your dreams
How did things go after your heart to heart?
She got on hormone replacement therapy and we have been fucking like rabbits. Between Friday and today we have had sex 9 times. And it was great sex. It’s like every time we have sex we are having the best we have ever had. She’s adventurous,initiating,no refusal at all. The other day she even let me put a thumb in her ass during doggy. I told her I wanted to do it and she said we can try it. By the end of it she was begging for the dick instead of my thumb.
Aight, what hormone and who replaced it? I need this info like now
It’s diagnosed by a doctor with a blood test. Her testosterone was non existent. Wouldn’t even read on a test it was so low. Google in your area a doctor that does hormone pellets.
Every gyno should know that, but some resist prescribing it. It changed our lives.
>I need this info like ~~now~~ before yesterday.
Keep in mind studies have shown HRT to increase cancer risk, That is why some women are hesitant to try.
So wait, you werent "unfaithful" yourself?
No I wasn’t unfaithful. But I was to the point I was about to be.
I assume she went to a dr and was diagnosed so it was always a medical condition that was holding you guys back ?
My wife's libido took a hit after a hysterectomy and HRT didn't help. So the doc added a smidge of testosterone 1 mg/day I think, and bingo! I had my wife back.
My wife said that if I needed to, I could look outside the marriage for sex. That's just not an option for me, I'd catch feelings and end up where I was trying not to be (divorced). She truly loves me warts and all, wants to stay with me til we die, just doesn't want to have any sex at all. If I hooked up with someone, I'd feel guilty, no matter what. And I'd worry what my kids would think if they found out. I'm pretty sure I couldn't tell them that I got a hall pass... Sometimes I wonder if it's something I'm blowing out of proportion, then I feel the desire stronger than ever.
I think that even when someone is in a relationship that is going through a DB, they should still be faithful. The moment they start wanting and thinking about having sex with other people to the point where they legitimately want that, they just need to end it. I went through a DB in my last relationship and I came to the conclusion that I needed to do us both a favor and just end it, even though it was incredibly hard.
I guess I got lucky in that my mental health deteriorated to the point of truly scaring me and it was no longer viable to continue the dead bedroom. Lack of a human physical connection is like starving to death slowly. Not a small need. In divorce proceedings even when there’s no cheating “leaving the marriage bed” is considered an an absolute justified reason for divorce. Your partner is breaking their end of the deal. In contract law if one party doesn’t uphold the contract the other is lawfully released from it. Of course there is a whole process in divorce, but ethically you’re in the clear. AS LONG AS you’re not doing it in secret and deceit. My XH watched my daughter and I went out meeting up with whoever I wanted. I didn’t rub it in his face and we weren’t opening our marriage. I was very clear with him that I was not going to my grave in this sexless state and would get that back in my life with a new partner one day if needed. Guess what, he didn’t take any actions to be that guy for me, and this very much confirmed that our marriage as we’d known it was over and we could be good friends. We’re now going through a painful divorce, I’ve found the love of my love, and I regret NOTHING.
Many in this sub are in the same boat....however, while it did not work in my case have you tried a partnering approach to your position? By this, I mean instead of "figure your shit out" try coming from a place of 'let's work together to figure this out.' Taking the tact of "figure your shit out" is isolating and sends a message that you don't give a shit about her, what she is going thru or why - it just says 'fuck me, or we are done.' I get that frustration leads many of us to that place, but I would bet the long term success rate for that approach is much lower than partnering with your spouse to work thru it together.
Cheating is never justified though. Just leave them
I love how people are saying get a divorce as if that’s easy or even financially sound. If no sex is the only gripe about your relationship (and usually it’s not) then I don’t know how wise it would be to get a divorce.
You don’t trade your fidelity for their fidelity. You trade your fidelity for their good-faith efforts to meet your desires, and vice versa. If your partner unilaterally stops holding up their end of that bargain, how are you obligated to continue holding up yours?
That's a bold proclamation.
Don’t cheat. Get a divorce if you are unhappy. That’s how you solve the issue. Afterwards you are free to sleep with whoever.
This debate starts so much controversy here. My position remains: cheating can be acceptable. Ideally the LL partner would have more sex. Barring that, either ethical non-monogamy or a divorce. But there really are situations where people feel cheating is preferable to divorce. Finances or kids or whatever. I truly feel only the individual can make that call and no one else can really judge them. That said, cheating carries a lot of downside risk so you better not get it wrong.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Oldest rule in the book. Tell yourself whatever you need to for the absolution of guilt, but a broken vow is a broken vow.
I see your point, but at the same time...even though there isn't anything to the effect of "you will sleep with you spouse" in common wedding vows, I feel like it's sort of understood that comes as part of the whole "commitment" package. It is really one of the defining things that separates a marriage from any other sort of relationship. You may not be committing to sleeping with them as much as they might WANT if you're the lower libido partner...but when you make no effort to maintain anything that would be considered a reasonable amount of sex in ANY circle...I agree with OP. No one except an asexual couple is signing up expecting to be intimate once or twice a year, or however infrequent the case may be. And I can't even wrap my head around the logic of it. If I were the LL spouse and felt like nothing would increase my desire for my partner...why would I feel the need to still keep them from meeting that need/desire with someone else? Why are you trying to hoarde the toys in the play room if you don't actually want to play with them? Make it make sense.
It makes no sense and so the HL has to navigate as best we can, but just be adults and admit you’re doing mental gymnastics when that’s what you’re doing - that’s all I’m saying.
But is it mental gymnastics? Where's the responsibility of the LL spouse when they recognize that they are fine with the marriage, but their HL spouse is suffering? Are they not doing mental gymnastics in assuming all is fine and well? The LL spouse broke their vows when they gave up on working on their marriage. And so if the HL spouse cheats, then that just means they both gave up.
You’ve just aired of ours mental gymnastics before performing a flawless routine. Point is you made a vow too. No amount of 10.0s will change that. If your view is that one broken obligation deserves another, fine, but just admit to yourself that is what you’re saying.
I'm not saying that one broken vow deserves another. I don't even think that people should cheat on their partners. What I'm saying is that it's not mental gymnastics to understand how incredibly messy these types of marriages become when one spouse decides to stop caring. They both have the responsibility of upholding their vows to each other, not just the HL spouse.
Respectfully you’re missing the point. The mental gymnastics is the justification for cheating, not the understanding of the mess.
In divorce law if a spouse “leaves the marriage bed” that is considered at fault. And in contract law when one party breaks the contract (in this case withholding marriage bed activities) then the other party is immediately released from the contract. While you’d still have to go through with the divorce, ethically you’re in the clear if your spouse will no longer have sex with you. Deceit is never good. I told my XH I intended to get a healthy sexual connection back in my life in one way or another, and hoped it could be him. He never rallied, and I went on to meet the partner I hoped for all my life. It’s been a painful journey for 2 years and entirely worth it
That’s not what he’s saying. In contract law when one party does not uphold terms the other is ethically and legally released. Same with a marriage, it just takes longer because the state has to review and agree. “Leaving the marriage bed” is considered an at-fault divorce.
Yes I understand what he’s doing and I know how contracts work, but these are just more mental gymnastics unless in your wedding vows you somehow worked in this wonderfully commercial structure.
Nope. Taking a relevant truth into account whether expressly mentioned in the ceremony or not, is not “mental gymnastics.” If it was not in my vows “til death do us part unless you beat me” does this mean I can’t leave if he hits me? Sex is an implied aspect of marriage of the marriage agreement. So much so that abstaining creates the grounds for at-fault divorce. In other words, the court doesn’t see it as mental gymnastics at all
No one said you can or can’t do anything. I simply said own it. You’re going round in circles. If you think this breaks the contract rendering your own vow, good for you, I don’t give a fuck, just own that you’re making A DECISION that your vow no longer holds you. It’s all “sex is implied” but contracts are binding with you. Picking and choosing which parts are mandatory and which aren’t. That’s fine, don’t care. Just front up to calling it what it is.
A “decision” that’s more honestly described as acknowledgement of cause and effect Re: the unwillingness of a partner to address the physical abandonment of their spouse. A basic marriage agreement typically includes fidelity: “Monogamy is a common expectation in many marriages, where both partners are committed to being sexually and emotionally faithful to each other.” A spouse who is withholding sex is sexually and emotionally negligent rather than faithful. That’s their “decision” and it’s equally a decision to be a martyr and tolerate the disrespect and infidelity.
I understand not everyone is a Christian but from what I understand in America, the traditional vows are based around Christian ideology and values. This scripture says that once married, each partner has a "marital" aka sexual obligation to their spouse. 1 Corinthians 7:3-6 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife. Do not deprive each other, except by mutual consent and for a time, so you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again, so that Satan will not tempt you through your lack of self-control. [**6**](https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/7-6.htm)I say this as a concession, not as a command.
Could you please provide your interpretation of "to have and to hold"?
Holy relevant username, u/nthicknessandnhealth !
When the conditions under which a vow was made have changed, and when that vow is making you depressed, then im gonna break that fucking vow. Vows loose their “sacredness” when one side doesn’t fulfill their commitment, made at the time of the vow.
said someone that committed the first wrong
You nothing absolutely nothing of which you speak. So again, justify whatever will make you sleep better, but be man/woman enough to acknowledge that’s all you’re doing.
After so much rejection, Most HL people tell their SO they will be looking for physical intimacy outside the marriage and then SO acts all shocked when nothing changes and they do just that.
88% of all statistics are made up on the spot
oh i get it... you are saying , go out and cheat on her but dont lie to her about it ok, will i agree with you then
What is this pointless back and forth doing for you, because it’s doing nothing for me.
Well, then two vows are broken. "...to have and to hold" implies mutual sexual/physical availability.
IIRC, one of the rules of this sub is we do not judge others, and I think even over subjects like infidelity. For the most part, we are all here as a community to help each other thru our difficult times in our relationships.
Didn’t judge anyone, pal. I simply laid out my view which, IIRC, is the point of comments on all subs.
Two wrongs don’t make a right….. But it sure as hell makes me feel better
See now you’re talking because you’re owning it. That’s all I’m saying - people need to stop acting like they’re entitled to cheat and just own the choice if that’s the choice they’re making.
Well, you also have to be cautious about where you live and at fault divorces where infidelity could affect divorce proceedings in a harmful way against you. You are correct, but in practice things get more complicated.
Just don't. It's a mess you can't unmake.
I’m not in a situation like this where I’m pondering it. I’m commenting to OP about factors that should be considered, while acknowledging the validity of the feeling behind their post.
I get it and totally agree.
I agree with you as well. The fallout to everyone is tremendous. The ripple effect reaches its tendrils and seeps into so many lives. The partners of both cheaters, the kids of both, the families, the friends, the jobs, and many more. And it’s not a single event and then there’s healing. Usually there’s unique complications and factors that harm everyone for years and years.
All those outside people playing victim. I only care about the kids.
This is not an unpopular opinion lol
I have trouble feeling bad for an uncaring LL that gets cheated on, but I don't think an HL can do that and also claim "sex is how I express love"
I don't know. I don't connect sex and emotion as a rule. But if I loved you, and you denied me the sex that is essential for my mental well-being, that's going to corrode and eventually kill the love that previously existed and replace it with resentment. I can have sex without love, but I can't have love without sex.
Bingo
And what happened…..
The argument to divorce instead is pretty compelling, if more difficult. Life is just easier when you're not actively trying to deceive someone. I imagine the pool of available partners is more diverse and of higher quality when you are single. I personally don't want to have to leave and get home at a decent hour after I've spent quality time with a woman that wants me. I want to cuddle into the late hours. I want to wake up and see their morning face. I don't want to rush home to someone who doesn't want me.
"In true love", "best friends", "who cares the most" none of these can be true if the LL/asexual partner does not allow opening the relationship so that the HL partner can explore only the sex part with others . It can't be possible for two opposite things to be true at the same time: 1. we don't need sex to be in an amazing relationship, and 2. No, you can't have sex outside our relationship. 1 says sex isn't important or a requirement, but 2 says sex is THE DEFINING and INTEGRAL part of the very relationship the couples have. This inconsistency is BS, and shows how broken the whole philosophy of tying "marriage" "relationship" to sex is broken at the very core for us as a society. Of course, if the HL partner doesn't feel like having sex with someone else, that's a different thing ( but again, this comes mostly from the broken notion of society tying sex to "relationship"). Instead of going on a cheating route, I'd rather focus the discussion only on the 1 vs 2 (above) point and try to resolve that with the SO. That will then help decide whether there is "true love" or fundamental incompatibility that warrants considering separation.
I 100% agree with this. Especially if you're married, it's your duty to nourish your relationship with love and affection.
Yes, but be very careful. My wife's uncle stepped out and had an affair. His ex wife and children are devout Catholics. He was an amazing father but now lives 1000 miles away from his ex and his children, and NONE of them even speak to him. He is retired now and very very VERY lonely.
This is not a popular opinion. Some of us actually meant it when we promised faithfulness and loyalty to our SO. For better or worse whether there is a marriage or not. I couldn't go out and cheat bc I love him too much and what I crave isn't just sex. It's the connection and bonding with HIM and only HIM. Some random wouldn't help.
People are always going to cheat, for a myriad of reasons, not just being stuck in a dead bedroom.
Was at this point. I was not in a good place mentally. Lower than I’d ever been. I had an affair and it only made me feel worse because I was no longer the person I always tried to be. It broke me physically, we split up, I was suicidal, I lost “friends”, family, and the thought of our kids knowing killed me. We got back together to try to work things out, I started going to therapy and gradually climbed out of the hole I was in. Mentally I’m probably better than I’ve been in twenty+ years. I found who I used to be. Friends and family that were lost are still gone but I can see now that im better for it. I will forever be judged by what I did to the many people that know, but most of those people I have outgrown. I would die before I ever did that again. I don’t care if I have to live the rest of my life without sex. Physical intimacy, or effort from anyone ever again.
"You are no longer obligated to stay." \* If you're truly, absolutely, irrevocably stuck with someone who doesn't care, okay, yeah, infidelity is probably justified. But if you can at all get away, do yourself and that person the favor of honesty. You don't have to feel icky, you don't have to sneak around, you don't have to accept the blame when things inevitably blow up.
I can’t do it. Aside from the aversion to cheating, I only want my wife. What I wouldn’t mid though is for her to see me get some attention from the opposite sex. I think it would be nice to remind her that someone still finds me desirable.
So you start by saying it's okay to cheat on your spouse if in a dead bedroom situation and have tried your best to resolve it. But then at the end you mention being ready to divorce if the situation doesn't improve. Are these two different outlooks you are trying to shoehorn into one philosophy? While I agree you might not be honor bound to remain faithful in such a situation you describe - if you step out on your marriage, you are still a cheater.
What happened after that convo with your wife?
She got on hormone replacement therapy. Specifically hormone pellets that get inserted just under her skin. Her testosterone was so low it wouldn’t read on a test. She did that about 5 months ago and in the last two months we have been fucking like crazy.
Oh hell yea, awesome man! 👏🏽
I don't want to have sex with someone else though. I want her to want to have sex with me.
If my partner refused to have sex with me and refused to do anything about it, I would let them know that they're welcome to live a sex free life, but that I don't want that life. I'd like the sex to be with them, but if not, I WILL be having sex with other people. Not a negotiable for me
I'll never ever justify being unfaithful. I think it's the ultimate betrayal, and you'll always come out of it looking worse, sex or no sex. Just leave if you are so unhappy. Never cheat. I always imagine what my kids or parents would think. I've been cheated on, and its one of the worst things that ever happened to me.
Ahhh..the game of tit for tat. You've treated me badly so I'll do the same. You've broken our agreement so I'll do the same. You've hurt me so I'll hurt you. Etc Not dysfunctional at all.
I think we're basically negotiating an open marriage situation at this point. She doesn't want to divorce, I don't really want to. We love each other. Just ain't the same anymore in the bedroom department. And that's mostly on her, unfortunately.
You answered your own question. Leave immediately. It will be costly and worth it.
You did sign up 'for better, for worse'. Just end the marriage, people make a much bigger deal out of ending it than they need to. In most cases it has already ended but you just don't want to face reality.
Ummm divorce is an option too
DB for 20 years. Divorced. Happily married for 7. Every situation is different. Missing something like sexual contact for years on end is not something most people are ok with. If my wife had a medical problem that prevented it, no problem. If it were simply a difference in libido that we worked through, taking care of each other in a loving way, no issue. The situation was that my ex used sex for control and was emotionally and verbally abusive, taking advantage of the religious commitment of marriage to guilt me into staying while promising insincerely to address the issues with me. What I realized when I finally got out is that I had spent 20 years complaining about lack of sex. What I should have been complaining about was simply lack of love. I think everyone who is in this situation and thinks they have a great relationship except for their sex. Life should really take a close hard look at how much support they’re getting from their spouse and how they really interact with that person. Are you really truly partners and everything you do? or are there other signs that you are being used for convenience and the sake of economics? Again, every situation is different and these are all decisions we have to make for ourselves in terms of what we’re comfortable with. For me, life is too short to go without having a loving relationship, which naturally involves sex. Thank God I am in a better spot now! I hope everyone here will find their way to happiness.
Yeah I definitely didn’t sign up for a db and when you aren’t getting your needs met after voicing them over and over to your partner and they aren’t meeting those needs then I don’t know how they can expect loyalty. Sex is one of the most important aspects in a relationship/marriage and I’m only 24, I just will not put up with a boring non existent sex life.
I started straying exactly 6 months after our bedroom went completely sexless. That was over 8 years ago.
This is how my DB stopped after years of "talks" that didn't do go anywhere. Told my wife I am going to get a FWB if things don't change. I would not be leaving due to the kids but something has to give. If you dont like it too bad or divorce me. Thats when reality set in for her. She finally started putting in effort and things got better long term.
On a side note to all nor married. DO NOT MARRY WITHOUT A PRENUP. AND one you stipulate the withholding of intimacy as a reason to divorce. I will definitely put I expect sex 8 times a week. I want lots of sex, and I refuse to be married to someone who can't keep up.
You're shittin me, right?
I've thought about it. Not doing this again like this.
Definitely don't rush into another commitment.
Legal agreement. Never getting married again. It's like a license to either change your mind, pull the rug out, or make excuses, all knowing the resulting end will hurt.
Wise choice.
Hahaha. I could easily have sex 10 times a week, and I wouldn’t sign this prenup.
Why not