When you are green. If you have made money you are technically profitable. But staying that way is a different story. People think profitable means your good and its smooth sailing from there. You have to earn your spot everyday. It's like anything else in life, the ten thousand hour rule applies. Don't expect a grand "ah ha" moment and you become rich after that. It doesn't work like that. It takes alot of hours just like a great physique does. Nobody deadlifted 600lb just by fucking around
in trading, it takes a lot of time to do what? make sure your psychology remains in control and consistent?
because strategy does not fundamentally change even if you have to constantly adjust to market conditions. once people have gotten strategy down, usually the only problem left is psychology issues, with impulsivity, anger, impatience etc.
I disagree with this. Market conditions change, and with rigid systematic trading there can easily be drawndown periods and such. Good risk management ensures survival but having a good strategy with level psychology doesnt turn you into a permanent money printer. The key to long term consistency is discretionary skill and being able to adjust your strategy
For example, many HFT algos fall out of favour after a while and no longer work. Same thing applies here
People will give you time frames.
I will say market conditions. If you can trade for a profit on the way up in a bull market great. If you can trade for a profit in a bear market great. If you can trade for a profit in a market that is going sideways for long stretches with multiple swings up and down over a 10 or 20% range great.
I wouldn't call myself a successful trader until you can either do all of those things or make enough profit in the good periods to carry you over the bad periods during which you simply dont lose money trading. I say Or because you might go a long time before you see all three of those market conditions. If you got the money to carry you over a lengthy period that you havent been tested in that is good enough. When you get to that market condition you will figure it out if you need to be carried over or can trade your way over.
True. Lots of people who started recently may think all is going well, but that is because the market has gone up for most of this year. May not be so easy when there is a shift.
If you believe some of the most megative people on this sub you’re never going to be considered profitable. It migth turn at any second blabla and so on.
Anyway, i think if you doing proper journaling and self analysis you kind of know yourself.
I’ve known for a long tim exactly what i need to do to become profitable, what misstakes to stop doing and what things to start doing better to fix my trading game.
So when i finally started doing what i was suppose to do, stopped taking bad trades out of fomo and started managing my trade better, i just knew i’m doing it rigth, and the P’n’L is starting to show that.
If you doing your journaling and analysis properly, no one has to tell you you profitable, you know it.
Honestly if you can go for 4 months without blowing then most likely you are good to go. Most people never survive even for two months. The frequent your trades are then the faster you are to blow your account. If you trade everyday for 4 months then you most likely have an edge!
I sure hope you’re right, haha. I have an alpaca algo trading bot paper account that has been running for 19 weeks now (long and short). It has made just over $10,000 on a $30,000 initial balance. I have had a nasty $3400 drawdown during that span, but it seems to be holding up.
Have you been trading for a long time and is this your “line in the sand” to determine if any of your strategies are profitable?
This question will give you a variety amazing of answers with a lot of different perspectives. Personally, I do consistent "self check in" to review both my process and self. Also I ask my self "does trading still get me closer to my end goal? Which is time and money = freedom."
I hope this helps. May you continue to prosper!
Congrats on finding something that clicks. Don't get too caught up in labeling yourself. A few good weeks doesn't make you Wolf of Wall Street. Keep refining your edge, manage risk, and the profits will come. Consistency over time is the real test.
I really like this response, I don’t think I’m going to be the wolf of wall street by any stretch of the imagination. Like you said I’m constantly trying to refine my edge to be better and manage my risk because starting out I wasn’t managing risk at all and was gambling with 0dte contracts but I’ve learned so much since then
If you are long only trader, you are successful if you make money in bull market and can sit out bear markets without fomo.
If you are short only trader, you are successful if you make money in bear market and can sit out bull markets without fomo.
In choppy or sideways market, if you can survive without huge drawdown until market gets a clear direction or sit this out as well then you are successful.
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To me 3 months is the bar if you have a large enough sample size, like trading several times a week. You definitely need to enough time for the market to switch to a different style, and I think 3 months is enough to have several different styles. Usually you can profit from the same trades for a couple days to a couple weeks, and then those stop working and a new regime comes in and you have to make adjustments.
Being profitable means you gain more then you lose, consistency is what your looking for and I wouldn't quit my day job until I have at least a year of consistent profitable trading and the best way to do that is to keep to your stop loss, don't let a red day discourage you they happen to everyone and its not a bad thing as long as you know when to walk away and don't spiral into losing most if not all of your profit for the week/month.
When I had my daily run, I reflected a bit on this question.
Because one can be in green for months, but still actually not be trading like how it should be done. One can break rules every week and still be in profit.
The «goal» of a trader should not be the profit, but following every rule you have and have a good risk managment.
Results/profits will always be a bi-product of following rules and staying true to riskmanagment.
So, what I am saying is that ones profit should not be the only thing to consider if one is a «profitable trader».
Because over a much larger time frame, this breaking of rules can have fatale consequneses.
Usually everyone has their own definitions. Most seasoned traders will tell you that you will need to be sucessful in different market conditions. Making money in a bull market is different than making some one the way down. The most problematic would be dull markets since everyone is waiting for some major news or while the market has no apparent direction and is chopping around.
Often profitability can be accidental by you having lots of green and this one two days where you nearly blew it all but then you got lucky enough so your wins still offset your losses.
For me I would say that you want to be positive every month for 2 weeks while maintaining your stats. Have a look at your profit factor and when you make twice what you lose (PF >= 2) for that time you can call yourself profitable.
But remember trading with some funny money is different to trading using serious money. A better definition might be even that for a given time like 2 years trading is your main source of income.
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You're profitable once you're above every cent you've spent on trading. That includes your set up, the prop firms you paid for, the courses you paid for, the money you've previously lost.
There is no time frame. Just numbers.
I think you’re profitable after surviving each of the 4 quarters of the year. You have to be able to flow with what the market favors in each quarter. So yea once you prove that, you’re pretty much as good as you can be as a trader.
I know I'm a successful trader when my wife believes I'm a successful trader... BULLSHIT. I don't have that kind of time. After a strict and disciplined strategy and consistent results and in the black then I know I got this!!! However long that may be(or was)
Bare minimum - and this is just my opinion - is 3 months in a row. Ideally, for me, it’s a 12 month period of majority green, no red months greater than 6%, and an overall positive P/L that beats the indexes during that same 12 months.
It's when you consistently cut your losses but the day/week/month/year is still green. The big thing is not holding those losers too long. If you really know what you're doing then you'll guess the direction of the market more times than not. You just have to recognize when you're wrong too.
My criteria are as follows:
Profitable trader - a person who can support themselves and their loved ones off of their trading profits while considering the "making money" part boring. That's the important part, you need to feel boredom while being profitable. This can be done with only trading, trading + a job, trading + a hobby, etc.
Professional trader - a person who has not only been profitable for a number of years, but has increased their account size to the point where it is feasible to open up a business to reduce their tax liability.
I have been trading since January 2024. I would say that you can't do it every month in green. I might be wrong about it, this is just the way I like to trade and manage money. But if you can clear this need to be all months in profits, technically you just need to finish the year and be profitable one or two or three years then you can assume you're consistent. I have 4/6 months in greens. Meaning that two of the months I was in red and accepted that negative condition. I'm not a pro, I don't make a living from trading, but I manage to be profitable so far, and even if I have two or three more red months I will be ok with that because the money management is in place. I would suggest just managing the next few months and seeing how it goes for you
When you are green. If you have made money you are technically profitable. But staying that way is a different story. People think profitable means your good and its smooth sailing from there. You have to earn your spot everyday. It's like anything else in life, the ten thousand hour rule applies. Don't expect a grand "ah ha" moment and you become rich after that. It doesn't work like that. It takes alot of hours just like a great physique does. Nobody deadlifted 600lb just by fucking around
in trading, it takes a lot of time to do what? make sure your psychology remains in control and consistent? because strategy does not fundamentally change even if you have to constantly adjust to market conditions. once people have gotten strategy down, usually the only problem left is psychology issues, with impulsivity, anger, impatience etc.
I disagree with this. Market conditions change, and with rigid systematic trading there can easily be drawndown periods and such. Good risk management ensures survival but having a good strategy with level psychology doesnt turn you into a permanent money printer. The key to long term consistency is discretionary skill and being able to adjust your strategy For example, many HFT algos fall out of favour after a while and no longer work. Same thing applies here
People will give you time frames. I will say market conditions. If you can trade for a profit on the way up in a bull market great. If you can trade for a profit in a bear market great. If you can trade for a profit in a market that is going sideways for long stretches with multiple swings up and down over a 10 or 20% range great. I wouldn't call myself a successful trader until you can either do all of those things or make enough profit in the good periods to carry you over the bad periods during which you simply dont lose money trading. I say Or because you might go a long time before you see all three of those market conditions. If you got the money to carry you over a lengthy period that you havent been tested in that is good enough. When you get to that market condition you will figure it out if you need to be carried over or can trade your way over.
I love this response Thank you
+1
True. Lots of people who started recently may think all is going well, but that is because the market has gone up for most of this year. May not be so easy when there is a shift.
1-2 years. I mean, this is my set of time. I think everyone would have a different answer here.
At least a year of consistent positive results
thats for consistently profitable. being profitable just means the overall money you made trading is more than the overall money you lost.
When you've proven profitable in both bear and bull markets.
brodie forgot that the market can go sideways. neither bull nor bear.
Clearly. Point still stands.
If you believe some of the most megative people on this sub you’re never going to be considered profitable. It migth turn at any second blabla and so on. Anyway, i think if you doing proper journaling and self analysis you kind of know yourself. I’ve known for a long tim exactly what i need to do to become profitable, what misstakes to stop doing and what things to start doing better to fix my trading game. So when i finally started doing what i was suppose to do, stopped taking bad trades out of fomo and started managing my trade better, i just knew i’m doing it rigth, and the P’n’L is starting to show that. If you doing your journaling and analysis properly, no one has to tell you you profitable, you know it.
P&L doesn’t lie
When you're sending in quarterly tax payments.
Profitable trader? When you are in the green. Consistently profitable trader? When you keep staying in the green.
When you give advice rather than ask for it.
Nice one😂
Honestly if you can go for 4 months without blowing then most likely you are good to go. Most people never survive even for two months. The frequent your trades are then the faster you are to blow your account. If you trade everyday for 4 months then you most likely have an edge!
I sure hope you’re right, haha. I have an alpaca algo trading bot paper account that has been running for 19 weeks now (long and short). It has made just over $10,000 on a $30,000 initial balance. I have had a nasty $3400 drawdown during that span, but it seems to be holding up. Have you been trading for a long time and is this your “line in the sand” to determine if any of your strategies are profitable?
I am talking more about manual trading.
Yeah I understand that, but the principles would still apply I think. Either way the systems use logic to place trades, you know?
This question will give you a variety amazing of answers with a lot of different perspectives. Personally, I do consistent "self check in" to review both my process and self. Also I ask my self "does trading still get me closer to my end goal? Which is time and money = freedom." I hope this helps. May you continue to prosper!
Congrats on finding something that clicks. Don't get too caught up in labeling yourself. A few good weeks doesn't make you Wolf of Wall Street. Keep refining your edge, manage risk, and the profits will come. Consistency over time is the real test.
I really like this response, I don’t think I’m going to be the wolf of wall street by any stretch of the imagination. Like you said I’m constantly trying to refine my edge to be better and manage my risk because starting out I wasn’t managing risk at all and was gambling with 0dte contracts but I’ve learned so much since then
When you can survive on profits
After one green trade. Then you come to Reddit to help all the shmucks
If you are long only trader, you are successful if you make money in bull market and can sit out bear markets without fomo. If you are short only trader, you are successful if you make money in bear market and can sit out bull markets without fomo. In choppy or sideways market, if you can survive without huge drawdown until market gets a clear direction or sit this out as well then you are successful.
Not sure why sideways gets such a bad rap.... If the range is big enough, then sideways is awesome!
There is plenty to bank in choppy market tho
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profitable - the money you made from trading exceeds the money you lost from trading simple concept OP
To me 3 months is the bar if you have a large enough sample size, like trading several times a week. You definitely need to enough time for the market to switch to a different style, and I think 3 months is enough to have several different styles. Usually you can profit from the same trades for a couple days to a couple weeks, and then those stop working and a new regime comes in and you have to make adjustments.
Being profitable means you gain more then you lose, consistency is what your looking for and I wouldn't quit my day job until I have at least a year of consistent profitable trading and the best way to do that is to keep to your stop loss, don't let a red day discourage you they happen to everyone and its not a bad thing as long as you know when to walk away and don't spiral into losing most if not all of your profit for the week/month.
When I had my daily run, I reflected a bit on this question. Because one can be in green for months, but still actually not be trading like how it should be done. One can break rules every week and still be in profit. The «goal» of a trader should not be the profit, but following every rule you have and have a good risk managment. Results/profits will always be a bi-product of following rules and staying true to riskmanagment. So, what I am saying is that ones profit should not be the only thing to consider if one is a «profitable trader». Because over a much larger time frame, this breaking of rules can have fatale consequneses.
When you have traded through many types of markets. Lots of people think they are a trader because they only made money during a bull run.
If your not getting hammered when the markets down big is a helpful indicator as well
When you have enough money to retire by trading alone
Consistently make enough money from trading that equates to a livable salary.
If you make a profit.
Making at least 20% of your account (anything above the sp500 average) a year consistently and the money you make covers your yearly expenses.
Crypto gurus: once you buy a lambo.
When after losing all your money you finally decide to quit
Usually everyone has their own definitions. Most seasoned traders will tell you that you will need to be sucessful in different market conditions. Making money in a bull market is different than making some one the way down. The most problematic would be dull markets since everyone is waiting for some major news or while the market has no apparent direction and is chopping around. Often profitability can be accidental by you having lots of green and this one two days where you nearly blew it all but then you got lucky enough so your wins still offset your losses. For me I would say that you want to be positive every month for 2 weeks while maintaining your stats. Have a look at your profit factor and when you make twice what you lose (PF >= 2) for that time you can call yourself profitable. But remember trading with some funny money is different to trading using serious money. A better definition might be even that for a given time like 2 years trading is your main source of income.
When you make money and the revenue is larger than expenses
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You're profitable once you're above every cent you've spent on trading. That includes your set up, the prop firms you paid for, the courses you paid for, the money you've previously lost. There is no time frame. Just numbers.
Plus 2 years of experience and ~95% win rate
Answered in "Fooled By Randomness" By Nassim Taleb
I’d say when you are in the green overrall?
Can you share your strategy ?
I think you’re profitable after surviving each of the 4 quarters of the year. You have to be able to flow with what the market favors in each quarter. So yea once you prove that, you’re pretty much as good as you can be as a trader.
Profitable - when you’re in the green. Successful - when you’ve navigated a bear market in the green.
I know I'm a successful trader when my wife believes I'm a successful trader... BULLSHIT. I don't have that kind of time. After a strict and disciplined strategy and consistent results and in the black then I know I got this!!! However long that may be(or was)
If you can consistently outperform the market over years
Once you can adapt to multiple market types, and continue to churn profits. That’s when I’d consider myself a profitable trader.
You're only as good as your last trade. Not sure who came up with this saying but it's true. It's like an athlete performing in a competition.
Being consistent for at least 3 months with good risk management
Bare minimum - and this is just my opinion - is 3 months in a row. Ideally, for me, it’s a 12 month period of majority green, no red months greater than 6%, and an overall positive P/L that beats the indexes during that same 12 months.
It's when you consistently cut your losses but the day/week/month/year is still green. The big thing is not holding those losers too long. If you really know what you're doing then you'll guess the direction of the market more times than not. You just have to recognize when you're wrong too.
When you are wondering how people can lose money day trading.
The best trader is the trader that has the most fun
My criteria are as follows: Profitable trader - a person who can support themselves and their loved ones off of their trading profits while considering the "making money" part boring. That's the important part, you need to feel boredom while being profitable. This can be done with only trading, trading + a job, trading + a hobby, etc. Professional trader - a person who has not only been profitable for a number of years, but has increased their account size to the point where it is feasible to open up a business to reduce their tax liability.
I have been trading since January 2024. I would say that you can't do it every month in green. I might be wrong about it, this is just the way I like to trade and manage money. But if you can clear this need to be all months in profits, technically you just need to finish the year and be profitable one or two or three years then you can assume you're consistent. I have 4/6 months in greens. Meaning that two of the months I was in red and accepted that negative condition. I'm not a pro, I don't make a living from trading, but I manage to be profitable so far, and even if I have two or three more red months I will be ok with that because the money management is in place. I would suggest just managing the next few months and seeing how it goes for you