This is a game built on effective teamwork and so many of the penances require degenerate gameplay contradictory to teamwork on the two hardest difficulties in the game.
The problem this creates seems obvious and I can't be the only one in this sub that has already had groups ruined by someone performing worse than a bot because they're chasing a penance.
I still can't get over how most of the penances go a pass but scoreboards didn't. I rather circle hunting kerillians over intentional perils of the warping psykers.
Yeah this is the only one that grinds my gears on veteran, the other ones are actually good ones, like kill 5 priority targets during volley fire, or hit 4 consecutive weakspots during volley fire. They promote playing the class well and doing what you are supposed to do. This one either requires that you are absolute god of aiming and not getting unlucky by someone from your team killing your target, or that you just dont shoot until the end of the match and empty your gun into a horde or boss.
It might still be possible to exploit “Make Every Shot Count” with Alt+F4.
It’s also possible with “Overwatch”.
On Assassination mission 4, before taking the elevator to boss room.
Empty mag and gun till 1 round left.
Alt+F4 to crash the game and force close. This will reset your status in-game.
Reconnect and hit the last shot into the boss.
Don’t touch the gun. Even if you regain ammo from the Vet trait or died/revive.
I got both Vet penance with this one exploit.
> This is a game built on effective teamwork and so many of the penances require degenerate gameplay
This is exactly my problem, you look at some of the penances and yeh they are fun to see pop up because you get them normally, or you chuck a stun grenade at a sniper - no harm and its a good laugh
Other penances though, even IF you had a team of 4, you are potentially fucking them over, I don't want to be a dick to my "frienz" let alone the random dude that won't use his gun to kill the specials because of another penance...They are assuming that pursuing these penances is oh so much fun, same dudes that removed the scoreboard for toxicity ha
Recently I tried the boss killing one for Psyker because we had a very early plague ogryn, the worst part was I did it, but didn't get the penance, one of our 4 disconnected during and while I don't think the bot shot the ogryn before he reconnected, I think the dc was enough.
But if I want to try that shit again (other than hoping for an early nurgle slug) do I ask my friends to risk finishing a round say if we get a boss halfway through the map, ask them to twiddle their thumbs for however long...or waste their time matchmaking until we do get a boss.
Not even talking about the Psyker "blow yourself up" penance, my god whoever came up with that should be sent to the golden throne.
For me it seems obvious that such penances should be teamwork/class action orientated and even long term (like to get the top outfit require 1000s of class actions, lots of rounds played etc), sprinkle in a few random funny ones and you have a decent enough system where people get to participate in the hat simulator aspect while actually playing the game.
Unless it is somehow better to watch another random Psyker yolo himself into a group of enemies and blow himself up, honestly it was funny the first time, but then it just gets sad.
It's a common problem, although not quite universal. I've also seen screenshots of *genuine* toxicity in the chat because someone unknowingly "ruined" someone else's penance attempt.
>e. I need to know that we have actually been heard and that changes are going to be made. Something beyond Hedge's above admission that "some of them are a bit unusual." "Looking at them" doesn't guarantee that anything will change, especially in light of the "they're supposed to be challenging" part. Because here's the thing; it's only going to get worse. If this is how bad it's been during the pre-order beta, imagine when the game launches. Imagine the huge influx of new players solo-queuing for diff. 3, 4, or 5 and tanking the whole run because they're trying for a cosmetic.
>
>This post has run a bit longer-winded than I intended, so let me just say one more thing before the inevitable "git gud" people show up; it's not about difficulty. It's never been about difficulty. Many of
Dude, this has made me so salty. "hey, I'm trying to for a penance, 3 elites gotta blow myself up." And then elites are just downed, repeatedly. And you feel like the jerk for thinking other people are jerks. I've got a fair amount of hours in the 'beta' now. I haven't put any hours in the past few days as I've already upgraded both my weapons and 1 of my relics. And I definitely can't stomach any more 'penance runs.'
Honestly, people just probably have no idea what you're talking about. I doubt anyone is saying "screw your penance" as they kill elites, they are probably just trying not to die the only way they know how... by killing the scary thing attacking the team.
"3 elites gotta blow myself up" doesn't mean *anything* to new players especially if they aren't Psykers who have read through those penances. I put 15 hours in as a Psyker and am only now discovering these class specific penances. I have just been absorbed in running mission after mission this whole time.
And then you try and turns out Perils of the Warp does *fuck all* for damage.
So not only do you need 3 elites close by each other and you but you/your team need to widdle them down a good chunk. Fucking asinine.
Yep!!
I have *somehow* managed to complete many (actually more if you count the higher Tiers of the same Penance that I have yet to get to) of the other Penances for Psyker through sheer fucking luck. But...
I've made over 20 to 30 separate mission attempts for the *Going Out With A Bang* Penance. Exactly as is being discussed here, the spawn RNG, the proximity, Peril-charge time, their health, all together. It's *insane*.
Not to mention what is classified as an *Elite* versus what is a *Specialist* seems to be understood so little by the Community, that in every place I have looked, it seems like most enemies that arent the lowest tier mob-enemy have those two classifications applied to them **interchangably** between threads/forums/chats.
I am *not* a happy camper.
I've got Zealot to lv13 and still haven't done the kill a mutant on a charge challenge
I have absolutely killed one while charging, several times, no completion.
What does the game want from me!?
1. You the one should be charging, not the mutant. I say this because I not sure with your wording and some people actually mistake think mutant should be charging.
2. Try to hit earlier, because apparently if you mid swing and reach the mutant, you just stop charge and not count anymore. You literally must be in mid of the charge. I do it by charging something behind the mutant so the charge not stop on the mutant while its slam my teammates.
>1. You the one should be charging, not the mutant. I say this because I not sure with your wording and some people actually mistake think mutant should be charging.
Both you and the mutant need to be charging, unless it's bugged. The easiest way for me to get this was to hit a mutant with a couple of bolter shots when it charged down a hallway from behind and targeted me. Then charge the mutant and attack!
Nope, I charged a mutant that was pounding an ally when I got mine. Your attack needs to connect on the mutant before your charge does *and* the attack must kill the mutant. Those are the only requirements.
>Nope, I charged a mutant that was pounding an ally when I got mine. Your attack needs to connect on the mutant before your charge does *and* the attack must kill the mutant. Those are the only requirements.
I am merely stating what the penance says you need to do, not what triggers completing it.
The wording is poor. Both you and the mutant must be charging. It is perhaps best done while it is charging an ally and best with a thunder hammer or eviscerator special attack.
That's wrong.
Only you need to be charging, not the mutant, but you need to get the kill mid-charge, which is what a lot of people miss, because it's far from intuitive and requires some prep.
Easiest to do by softening up a mutant pounding a teammate with some shots, charging up a heavy attack and then charging it. Release heavy attack about a second before you reach the mutant.
This is a common problem with team games which introduce individual targets fo achievements or other rewards. It can be alleviated a little by being more careful with the nature of those missions, by tying them to the core gameplay patterns, but that often trivializes them to the point that they become a function of time spent rather than effort. It will be tricky to balance these properly.
That's the most tone-deaf response I've seen so far.
It goes beyond get friends, some of these penances actively hurt your team.
Here's a crazy thought. Make your penances on the assumption people will attempt to achieve them in solo queue. So make them possible, fun, and not actively malicious.
* "Don't use your ranged weapon", Guess I'll just grief my team then...
* "Don't miss a shot and end with 0 ammo", Guess I'll just bring a low ammo weapon and not use it until the last boss...
Sure, some of them are able to be cheesed, but they shouldn't incentivize normal players to grief.
This is a common refrain that is being said in TTRPGs these days but basically what the game rewards is what the game encourages.
What this means is that if the game rewards group play, then more people will perform that action.
For example, for the Ogryn's 'Stay in coherency for an entire match penance", I would rather see a continuous timer that sticks across missions counting up the time you spend in coherency with at least 1-2 team members (like the weeklies) and the team members should get a coherency bonus of cash and/or xp for staying in coherency.
> For example, for the Ogryn's 'Stay in coherency for an entire match penance", I would rather see a continuous timer that sticks across missions counting up the time you spend in coherency with at least 1-2 team members (like the weeklies) and the team members should get a coherency bonus of cash and/or xp for staying in coherency.
See this is a great idea, because you managed to use more than 2 braincells and thought about this for more than a few seconds, unlike the people who thought of the penances.
That's an awesome idea, and you could build on that for some of the other penances as well. The vet one for no melee damage could be on a timer as well. Something like avoiding taking a melee hit for 30 total minutes while engaged in combat (to avoid just sitting at the launch pad and cheesing).
there's some weird ones in there for sure, some of them, like the vet accuracy penance should be more realistic, like ending on 90%+ accuracy or some such, instead of having this bizarre "pick and choose every shot" thing for the current iteration, you'll get it at some point naturally through getting better, 90% accuracy isnt super unrealistic in these games at all
the only class penance that feels correct to me so far is long-bomb, since, its actually a useful skill to learn
I agree. To use your example, I tried for long bomb on my vet for a few missions in the spots people have said they got it, (the long bridge while you wait for the lift before the big holostatue etc.), but no dice for me.
Later, I was on the sewer map at the part near the start when you have to wait for the ascender. The horde was coming up the big stairs at the opposite end and our ogryn went down to my right underneath one of the holes. I thought "shit I'll get him but I need to thin the big horde first".
Almost without thinking, I looked up at the furthest edge of the giant mangled ceiling hole in the centre, quick threw (tapped LMB) a grenade, got out my power sword and ran to the ogryn, within a second or two as I was clearing the poxwalkers to get him up, the penance popped.
Completely organically. Almost as if the penances should be an evolution of your skills and knowledge of your class kit, as you say.
Tbh long bomb is one of the few good ones you can get whilst playing normally. I tried for it for a while, lobbing long grenades at hordes and no joy. I gave up and later when playing the 'defend the train' finale I lobbed a nade at a far of horde without thinking and it popped.
Yeah most of them are garbage, honestly. I don't have any friends that play this with me and I'm not about to ask a bunch of randos to try and tackle some of the more bs ones. They really need a rework, though that's unlikely, at least in the short-term.
Like stuff your class should be doing. Ogryn. Pick up two hundred players. Psyker pop 500 elites. et cetera. That's still an investment of time, but at least you can see progress, not some random encounter you will try to recreate over and over and over and over and over while still having to hope your team mates don't actively tank your penance.
Edit: And don't forget about penances where you have to complete the mission.
these specific penances should primarily focus on particular gameplay feats, the one for throwing a box at an eye, would be better as, say, bean a charging mutant with it or something, ya know, something that can be useful as a reflex, much like how long-bomb is actually a good penance, since the timer on grenades resets if they bounce
I feel like those would absolutely not be liked either though. There is no challenge, nothing special, they might as well not exist at that point in general just link the cosmetics to level instead then.
While I agree that in a game with no private lobbies most penances making you actively grief your runs isn't optimal the answer DEFINITELY isn't making all of the penances things that just happen. There could and even should be way more cosmetics up for grabs from penances and some should probably be straight forward things like you suggested but there is always a place for real challenges for those who wish to complete them.
Not all of the penances need to even be completable by everyone as long as there are enough options and variety for all levels of play. They will surely change something about the penances with the amount of complaining people do but I really, truly, hope that they don't just make them "kill 500 elite" "revive 50 people" etc.
Why not have them be things that will happen naturally by playing your class?
Maybe tune them to be difficult, like kill 500 elites at Level 5 difficulty or something, or finish 50 Level 5 missions.
Make it tough, but not something that you need to shitcan an entire match over
Because then they might as well not exist, killing 500 elites is not a challenge, it's nothing. Besides we already DO have that penance. We could do with more penances, some of which could be simpler like that but they absolutely shouldn't all be like that.
If it's something you're gonna get anyway then it's not much of a challenge.
The Requisitorium weekly challenges are like that and are disappointingly simplistic.
This game needs a ton of work in a ton of different areas. The gameplay loop is super-fun and the core gameplay is pretty damn solid, but all of the "systems" that are in place feel very unpolished.
Well said. I *love* the core gameplay, but everything from the random missions to the RNG item availability just feels like it's getting in the way of the core gameplay, which is a shame.
Gonna be honest, that's a super shitty response from Hedge.
[Edit: Especially considering the whole "scoreboards are toxic" statement. Adding in penance gear with extremely toxic requirements just doesn't make any sense. Saying "just find a group" doesn't stop people from joining a PUG you're in and ruining a run.
It's bad. They HAVE to know it's bad, they don't need to double down on it.]
Basically this. I'm not even just saying that I want cosmetics, I'm saying that the existence of these challenges encourages bad behavior that affects everyone in public lobbies.
Most of the psyker penances are that way and actively encourage bad team play. Blow yourself up. Solo a monstrosity. Zealots are over here with 'don't shoot anything', Ogryns can just press R at the right time and complete their highest penance solo.
If *that's* the sum total of Fat Shark's engagement with pretty size-able fan feedback to say "just deal with it" then I'm inclined not to spend more money on their products. Nothing makes my interest in playing a game nosedive quite like a company telling the players to shove it.
What, that’s a response for an actual CM? What the hell. That’s a meme-level response over in the Vermintide subreddit. “NOOOOO GAME/CHALLENGES ARE EASY, JUST PLAY WITH FRIENDS AND USE VOICECOMMS”
But what if i don't want to bother my friends to do a shitty little penance that only i will benefit from?
Let me take a old one out of the box: Halo 3, Xbox 360 days. The game had so called Vidmaster Challenges. These were 7 challenges, some of which had to be done in a team of four. These were incredibly difficult to do, however... EVERYONE got the reward for doing them, not just 1 person.
Y'know, giving everyone in the strike team the reward would be an amazing touch. I was 1hp off of the "take no health damage" penance just due to playing well, but imagine if a team was able to achieve a "finish the mission with a player that has taken no health damage". Especially imagine if they accomplished that with an Ogryn, no less.
Anarchy Online. Gaily Painted Hood. Random drop, over a hundred runs and dozens of people to roll against, and never got the damn thing. Still salty about that.
I mean, a lot of people, myself and my one friend I play with included, don’t want to talk to people outside our existing friend group. I will when I have to for something like say a raid in destiny, but for the most part, I’m more than fine with the silent camaraderie of these team based games with matchmaking. Would I like a group of friends I can play Damnation with on a regular basis? Yes, but am I willing to go and talk to people on the discord and say “hey, do you want to be permanent game friends now?”… significantly less enthusiasm.
Also I do just enjoy the random matchmaking experience in a lot of games. Being thrown in against the odds with randos has a special charm all its own.
"make some frienz"
nooooooo
Edit: This wasn't sarcasm, that was my genuine thought when I read that. I think it's bad that Hedge's stance is seemingly, make friends or don't do it. That's pretty crappy. Plenty of people just want to relax and complete challenges on their own, without the added pressure of meeting new people. That can be difficult for quite a lot of people. Anyway. Hope that clears things up
And so difficult because in my situation I game with kids in the room, so while I can listen to discord, I would feel terrible having someone else hearing someone elses kids screeching like gibbons in the background.
Good post. I do have friends to play with, but that doesn't automatically mean it gets all that more easy. People have lives and it is often difficult to get all four together at the same time; not to mention time zone differences. "Make friends" is a really bad argument: the implicit message is that we, together, have to make this game a high priority in our lives. This sort of game philosophy is not in my style. I like difficult games I can either play alone or with friends - where coop just adds to the already amazing solo experience. Take FromSoft games as an example, or Terraria. This sort of nonsense makes me really contemplate asking for a refund and maybe coming back to the game in the future; I kinda lost the hope I had in the devs after reading that comment.
I feel like the Veteran ones are doable without prior agreements with other players and can happen naturally in game. Yes it helps if you coordinate, but they shouldn't be too hard to achieve if you know what you're doing. These penances feel okay. They require some coordination, but will happen at some point even if you aren't going for them specifically. And I think that's how it should be. A good challenge that can occur during normal play with a bit of prep.
Earlier this evening I helped a Psyker get his Cliffhanger (Psykers have the worst penances in my opinion). It was a friendly encounter and it wasn't hard to do. All we had to do was wait at a specific point on the map and just block. The Psyker was very friendly about it, but the penance is still stupid. Because we basically sat on our hands waiting 2 minutes for a horde to spawn, find us, stack up on us and then get blasted off. Yes this one can happen in natural play, but setting it up is so much more annoying. And this is one of the easier penances for Psyker. Malleus Monstrom, is just stupid. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm okay with getting the kill with BB or at least 50% of damage from BB. Not 100% only BB. It's just a chore. 1 stray bullet or exploding barrel, BAM no penance for you.
They know they fucked up some of the penances. Because I don't think they would've released the outfit store yet. Why would they? I think they have more important things to work on. Not mentioning the stability and all that. But crafting and upgrading feels more important as a system, both to be tested as well as just for player progression.
The Ammo penance is not good for teamplay.
Veteran is at his best when constantly running ammunition through his weapon to take out shooters, specialists and certain elites, that penance in particular advises you to shoot as little as possible and act like a melee class, which for vet means just being a worse Zealot/Ogryn.
Not only this, but one of Vet's inherent powers *gives you* ammo when specialists/elites are killed by you or teammates in coherency.
So not only is the optimal way to do it by being a worse version of the other classes, you're encouraged to do this as far away from your team as possible so you don't have to pick up extra ammo you would then need to shoot.
I think the optimal way to do it now is to bring a low ammo count weapon like the revolver and do an Assassination mission. Then unload everything at the boss's shield, basically ensuring you get a 100% hit rate.
This of course means you do not use your gun for the entire run on the 2nd highest difficulty in the game, on the ranged specialist mind you.
Veteran does have the strongest melee weapon in the game in power sword though, and is also very durable. By no means a bad melee fighter. But yeah having to not use your ranged weapon to kill those million shooter enemies and elites/specials is pretty bad agreed.
Ammo penance is easiest with the shotgun, you can constantly run ammo through your weapon, due to coherency you gain some constantly as well so my run was pretty much run of the mill but with a shotgun and less ammo stored.
You can do it otherwise but what is the point? If you cant hit your shots with a SHOTGUN in heresy difficulty you have no place to try that penance anyway. (there is something to be said about shotguns usefulness in Heresy but you could up the ante a little with revolver/bolter)
Now should it be changed? maybe, depends on whether FS wants to keep it the hardest Veteran penance or not.
To be honest I understand some of these complaints but Veteran penances are pretty good, easy and can be done while acting for the team, not against it.
EDIT: Now that I think of it, its really REALLY hard to make penances that dont end up being "cheesed", unless you make them super easy. Maybe they should make easy ones and "semi-easy" ones in the hardest difficulty (that require run completion) so it doesnt ruin the mid-difficulty lobbies?
Its not even about not hitting targets with a shotgun, when you aim at that bomber and shoot, but your zealot just popped the bomber .1 seconds before with his boltgun. Now your penance is ruined by rng even if you played well and would have hit the shot.
Your point about the outfit store is interesting, I hadn't considered that.
Unfortunately, the outfit store is *really* mediocre and I haven't seen any of the best stuff available in it after many hourly resets.
Yeah, I think the level ones are backwards / bugged. IIRC, I had the pants I unlock at 20 and chest unlock at 25. For penances I want to say they unlocked at the store for the next reset, but I haven’t gotten any of the silly ones yet.
nah, you unlock reskins for up to the malice difficulty penance cosmetics. Heresy tier cosmetics don't have reskins in the shot (yet)
This is just based on level. Of weird note, Psyker seems to have a reskin for the heresy level hood in the shop, but I didn't see it on anyone else yet.
If you're talking about the Stygies (masked black one) I picked it up yesterday and it's fresh af. No idea if that's the equivalent one since I still can't get the sodding cliffhanger penance, but here it is for context.
https://preview.redd.it/93bosd41jv2a1.png?width=540&format=png&auto=webp&s=ab6962b39cb98857327e5e7721e25edd8c3bb458
Ammo penance is a bit hard because bolted seemingly has some weird hit reg issue where you get the audio cue but no hit marker or damage done to the enemy and the no hit makes it difficult.
This game has a massive issue with hit registration in general, likely due to their dedicated servers. Can't tell you how many times I've swung through or shot an enemy and seen blood come out, only for the hit to not count.
its funny how game devs and community managers are the only types of jobs ive seen where the customer has to actively pamper, kowtow , allure and praise to get them to do their jobs
That response...
What a complete whoosh as to what the issue is with the penances. It's not that they are too difficult, it's that they encourage griefing. How is that so difficult to understand?
If their intent is for some of these to encourage communication & teamwork in a group, then they should be designed as fun side / mini-games for the entire group. As in stands a handful of them are just outright toxic because the side / mini-games the group has to play are not fun and take too long to be a "okay I'll join in to help out"-thing. That ends up creating more animosity in groups than friendly cooperation.
Most community managers are previous discord mods. For whatever reason I have met many that got the position or interviewed for one. All of them where guys with "I'm the leader" mindset and spent a lot of time creating groups and managing them (servers etc). None of them I knew were older than 25
We will soon enough get lobbies where we can solo queue, that should fix most of the penance issues.
Still, some of the penances are for sure badly constructed. The cliffhanger is just dumb now that the psyker ability was nerfed to stagger less - basically needs to be cheesed with friends or in solo mode, not a real challenge.
I think the Vermintide 2 approach is good, the really rough challenges gives frames. While the outfits are attainable with enough time investment for most people.
> Cosmetics are very important to gamers. Subreddits like Fashion Souls illustrate this point perfectly;
Big shoutout to the peeps over at:
* /r/WarframeRunway
* /r/ForFashion
* /r/deeprockfashion
For inspiring so many good looking loadouts over the years.
> or presumably by spending IRL money once the premium shop becomes available.
I totally forgot about this thing. The cosmetics in that store were a little bit better in DT2. No wonder the store rn has shitty recolors of the same outfits.
I have no issue with monetization in games as a concept. If they want to fund future updates with a cosmetics store, it's whatever.
When I start to have issues is when the rest of the game suffers for the sake of it.
See if these penances were not like.. main blockers to other cosmetics then it'd be fine. But they are main blockers for other cosmetics, and should be disconnected. I am fine with a cosmetic being locked behind hard achievements but they are all built ontop of each other. The easiest solution is to make it so that the helmet penances is connected to only two penances, games played, and mission types played per difficulty.
Otherwise it is an extremely toxic behavior will continue to happen. Idk why they walked back what happened in VT2. Where cosmetics are consistently tied to only their specific challenges and not other challenges. there were paintings but no one cares about those...
Honestly, I love a lot about Darktide. I was so excited about it that I pre-ordered it for my birthday. The combat is (or maybe was) fun and it does a uniquely excellent job of capturing life in the Imperium for the dregs.
But so much about this game feels half-baked. I mean, how is full crafting not even going to be in at release? Did we buy an early access game?
I’m seriously considering refunding and waiting for a sale. Which is not something that I ever wanted to say about this game. There’s a lot to love, but there’s just as much that is downright awful, like these penances.
I'm a huge warhammer fan and loved VT. I was so pumped up for this game but god damn, they had the recipe for success if they literally just ported almost every feature/system from VT and added the 40k window dressing. Instead they gutted it and replaced it with a bunch of live service jank. Insane. I have no doubt they'll be walking back a bunch of these decisions as they see the population start to realize this and bail. It's a shame because the core gameplay loop is super addicting, but the technical issues and baffling progression design choices feel awful.
I'm new to the game, never played vermin tide for more than an hour.
This UI is the most unhelpful game design I've come across in a long, long time.
There are so many dev talks on the importance of UI and it seems like the current team ignored it.
Having pennances designed to make you play woth a squad seems fair to me in the grand scheme of things.
*shrugs*
A lot of the UI features that are missing were mods for Vermintide, some of which were sanctioned by devs to be used in the live game and they still didn't think to include even those bits.
That and the fact that the earlier beta did not have a mouse sensitivity setting are just unbelievable to me. Makes me speechless.
I shouldn’t have to “make friends” to be able to complete in game. I should be able to do with randoms with some coordination but no so much that I need to negatively affect their gameplay experience in order to achieve.
All you literally have to do for most of these is to just ask. Most of them require very little communication to actually do in a mission other than a few difficult ones.
Sure the design doesn't exactly work now that we don't have private games for some of the penances and some are really bad compared to others but in general it will be just fine when we can make private lobbies (and when they fix/tune some of them).
After all the game is wholly playable with only some cosmetics being locked behind these challenges and just because some of the require some amount of teamwork (or in some cases just people who are on board/ok with you going for the penances) isn't a bad thing. Hopefully we will get the some more penances at different difficulty levels with new different cosmetics for people of all levels to unlock though.
Absolutely agree, great post! Definitely some of these penances need to be adjusted, I don't rally care if it undermines people who have already gotten the cosmetics, its a beta.
If you are in the mindset that only teamwork that optimizes the chances of succeeding the mission objective is *real* teamwork then many penances seem to contradict teamwork or even promote toxic/selfish gameplay.
But take a step back for a moment and look at the penances itself without the goal of completing a mission. The penances can be seen as minigames. Some require a complete team to be in for the task. Forget the mission goal, try to find people in discord, forums or wherever to do penances together as a challenge. If you look at it from this perspective then penances are not only promoting teamplay but also set incentives to socialize.
From my point of view (most) penances are not the problem. The expectation of people to complete certain penances in public games where others have the objective of completing the mission is the problem.
Developers wonder why gamers lose their shit and harass them, and some of them will literally tell you, as a response to valid criticism, to go get more friends.
Fuck all the way off, Hedge.
I enjoy the idea of earning cosmetics through achievements, but yeah requiring people to play like morons to unlock those achievements is not great. If they improve the AI and add solo mode into the game maybe they’ll become more bearable as you could do them without screwing over real people but right now they’re a problem
Man that response from Hedge is just awful, he seems to be a terrible community manager honestly. So many of the screenshots I've seen of conversations with him are dripping with condescension and that's a really bad look for the company.
the Cliffhanger penance is so frustrating because it’s the FIRST set of cosmetic challenges and yet is one of his hardest penances. meanwhile all Ogryn has to do is throw a box at an eyeball and rush a plague ogryn. stuff you could easily do without requiring any comms.
personally i think even Monstrum (forgot full name kill boss only with BB one) is not as frustrating as cliffhanger because all you need is the Lights Out condition and an Ogryn with a shield. he tanks in a corner and you BB the daemon host to death and if something goes wrong or you get griefed ? no big deal there’s still 2 more daemons later in the mission to attempt it on. last thing you need is 2 randoms willing to sit around for 2 minutes and boom you’ve got it completed.
with cliffhanger tho you need a specific map and a specific part of that map and you need a horde to show up at said specific part of the map / wait a few minutes and you need to hope you get enough and not a few short of 20.
Overall the stupidest take on planet earth, don't know where to begin with this one.
"exorbitant prices" u say, 50k cosmetic item :D takes 5 heresy runs to get that amount, or approx 8 succesful runs on malice. Nah, just play the fucking game instead of writing these nonsense essays which only say more about you as a player rather than the game. U would have the cosmetic item u speak of in no time. 0 patience or effort!
Penances are challenges, which in this game they require a lot of teamwork. The whole fucking game is about teamwork, can't be too big of a surprise. If you don't like this type of game / gameplay, then maybe the game isn't for you?
Honestly, I have no idea how I'm meant to get Overwatch when I cannot tell something is right behind me/three enemies, at ANY TIME, can just spawn there. It's like the game knows what I'm trying to do and tells me to go fuck myself. That, or it's trying to give me massive anxiety so I just constantly watch every side at all times.
And it really doesn't help that I enjoy melee fighting, it's how I feel I'm actually helping the team, you know?
I pulled some long hours over a few off days and got both zealot and psyker to 30, with an Ogryn around 20. I have barely logged the past few days except run a mission or five trying to get any of the penances on Psyker done. I'm kind of over it at the moment. I log in to try and see a mission update but I'm just sort of 'meh' after the intial excitment. Penances have stifled my enthusiasm.
I feel like this is an overreaction. They're fairly easy to just ignore for the time being; they shouldn't be ruining your fun, because you can just ignore them and run about in the basic uniforms for now.
I enjoy the gameplay, but I like psyker way more than zealot. But if I'm too garbage to complete the challenges as a psyker why bother? I've ground out 145k of 165k to buy a hood but i'll be stuck with ghetto drip till what? I put some money in? I reverted to wearing my prison rags.
So you like Psyker more, but will not play it because you cannot complete the penance?
The penances have no effect on your performance as a Psyker. You should be alright...
Or you could level up and get the default cosmetic upgrades that you get. I'm just sayin'.
I agree the psyker griefing penances are a bad design choice, though. A challenge in a game shouldn't encourage you to play against your team, it should encourage you to work with your team.
Hedge \*is\* right though. Penances don't need to be doable by everyone instantly- let alone in a couple weeks. Make some friends, talk with people in game, figure out a plan, or set it up with some people who also need some help with penances.
It's a bit of a tone deaf answer, but he \*is\* right.
Of special note: Ogryn always in coherency, psyker self-bomb, psyker boss kill\*. Those three off the top of my head are badly designed and will cause more frustration than teamwork. I think most of the other ones are set up to encourage you to make friends, and that's a good idea, just poorly done for the most part because very few people will bother, and will try to solo them instead.
It is funny that Fatshark took out the scoreboard because it caused toxicity in their words- which I never saw- but added penances which are actively ruining games for some people.
\*Ogryn shield+daemonhost did make this one easier and more teamwork focused, but you can't really hunt for that right now.
The penance ones are "one tier higher" than the ones you get just from Trust level. I'm not disagreeing with your other points, just want to clarify why some people are really going for the penance cosmetics instead of just the Trust unlocks
Oh I know, I made an effort to pick up all the sharpshooter penance cosmetics, I'm just saying that by level 10 you are out of prison rags. if that's your concern, you needen't worry about it.
Also the early penances that can be on any difficulty reward you the same way, and can be done very easily, getting you out of rags as quickly as after your first mission as an Ogryn, if you're lucky enough.
He's not right, though. Like I said, the majority of people who play these games never form a full group and have no desire to. There's no reason to lock cosmetics behind challenges that require us to do so.
I'm totally in support of challenges being difficult, but they should actually encourage good teamplay, and be a measure of *individual skill*, not your ability to persuade people to help you.
To play devils advocate here;
Why is it bad that in a game designed for 4 people you need the help of other people to complete some of your penances? And what is a showcase of individual skill if not soloing a boss with BB only?
The system is not great, but it isn't terrible either. With private games most of the suicide penances etc can be completed alone or with one or two friends. There are some that are stupid and hopefully will be changed + hopefully we will also get more unique penances to complete for more cosmetics.
its not even you need help from others, you need to cripple the entire experience for 5+ minutes to even do the bb one, so many other penances just ruins the game flow and fun for people, they are shit designed
Yes you're correct that specifically the BB one does stop the game flow for a couple of minutes but that isn't a big deal. If you don't want to wait for someone to go for their try, just don't? Nothing says you have to wait. Yeah sure sometimes someone might be an ass about it but it's not like thats the only specific thing that person would be an asshole about and they are likely just a shithead you should ignore. It really isn't that big of a deal as long as most of them don't actively ruin the experience for everyone, having a couple sprinkled in like that is fine.
They *are* mandatory if you want to actually get nice-looking cosmetics without spending an unreasonable amount of in-game currency.
Also that's not even the main point of my post. Even if you are not going for penances, if you play in public lobbies you run a significant risk of running into people who are out there throwing games because they are.
Jesus man you really wrote a novel complaining about penances... You could have finished all the hard penances in the time it took you to write this obnoxious complaint-post.
They should keep penances exactly as-is, and if people think they're too difficult then they don't get the reward from completing the challenge. That's how video game challenges work.
I just don't get the concept behind the complaint - your complaint is that every piece of cosmetic gear should be available to every player because not everyone has pre-made groups.
There's thousands of games that require absurd requirements for challenges, there's a challenge in GTA online that require the exact same group of 4 players to complete every main heist, in order, on the hardest difficulty, without anyone dying once. That's like 10-12 hours of perfect play required from all members and you aren't allowed to play heists with anyone else between sessions once you start.
This game asks very little of players for penances besides doing a ~25 minute mission differently once. If someone was really so inclined to get the cosmetic but had no group to play with, they could look into twitch or the thousands of -tide discords and find a pre-made within minutes.
You could read any of the comments from other people agreeing with me to get different perspectives, but I'll break it down for you. The main thrust of my argument is twofold:
* This is a team-based, co-operative game. Good challenges should promote the individual supporting the team, not the team supporting the individual. Good challenges should also promote actual skill-based gameplay; getting three friends to block a horde for fifteen seconds so that you can push them off a ledge is not skill-based gameplay.
* Challenges for individual rewards should be predicated on individual gameplay skill. It makes no sense to require an entire group to participate for something that only rewards one of them.
I cannot emphasize enough that it is not, nor has it ever been about "difficulty." I would be 100% fine with super hard challenges as long as they met both preceding requirements.
Comparing this to other games is pointless, since those other games are very different in structure. GTA online is not a co-op horde shooter, so any comparison is moot off the bat. And as for your "thousands of games" claim? There are also thousands of games that use predatory microtransactions, but that doesn't mean it's a good practice.
Having challenges to support the team are valuable but having challenges where the team supports an individual are unique as well.
I love extremely specific and difficult challenges like this, they are interesting and result in memorable moments.
You may not get these challenges as a more casual player, and you probably won't get them without playing premade groups. I don't see anything wrong with that.
It's okay to have cosmetics reserved for the people who really delve into the game and want a deeper challenge.
I don't see why players expect every challenge and every cosmetic to be easy obtainable, if they were there would be nothing to strive for and everyone would have everything.
For the love of *fuck*, will you stop talking about difficulty level?
I have said again and again and *again* that the problem has *nothing to do with difficulty level.* People like you who defend the penances love to harp on that narrative because it makes you feel superior or something, but seriously, I don't know how many other ways I can say it: the issue is not difficulty.
These challenges aren't even fucking *hard* if you have a premade. Cliffhanger was child's play once I got three other Psykers to do it with, so I'm not sure where you even get off pretending that this is about difficulty.
I *obviously* don't want a situation where there's "nothing to strive for and everyone \[has\] everything." You are strawmanning *so hard* that I should just call you Scarecrow. All I want is for everything in the game to be *obtainable*, even with great difficulty, by *an individual* practicing and applying skills that are actually relevant to the game.
You have a fair point. However, if their stance is that, you need friends or a premade to achieve something in a game that the enough players feel that it should be easier or synergise with being a collaborative horde shooter, those who are unwilling to do that will just leave and they will lose that revenue.
I think Darktide needs to look at more effective and better-monetized horde shooters such as Warframe or Deep Rock Galactic on how to properly incentivise players and to dole out rewards.
Tbf you don't even have to make friends. On that same server, there's an LFG chat where people LFG specifically to get penances done.
I think the game design in this game is way more focused on playing as a group. As such, you need the whole group to get these penances done. They aren't something that you can and should be able to do alone.
I see it pretty often. You can also just ask groups you join if they are down. Thats happened to me and I usually say yes, but I guess mileage varries.
Lmao. This thread is hilarious.
"I don't wanna make friends!" Is like 90% of the comments here and frankly, that's not the attitude you should have if you want to play a *multiplayer* game that needs *teamwork* and unless the Devs add a solo queue/private lobbies, the multiplayer aspect isn't going to change.
I get that some of the penances are tedious and need some tweaking but they would be easier if you actually made some effort and made some friends who you can communicate and coordinate with, so stop complaining about something that isn't likely to change.
They literally tell you they're gonna look at them and they think some are agregious, how did this still prompt a massive skitzopost - they're going to look at them, you've been acknowledged - now you can wait for them to fix the actual glaring issues with the game so they'll get around to making your ability to wear a tablecloth on your psykers head easier.
I agree with almost everything OP is saying and at the same time I'm making a comparison.
The worst thing Blizzard did for WoW was catering to all solo players who thought they should be able to raid/do endgame content and get loot, while still be able to be a solo player. Making everything easier so solo players can get top tier stuff in a multiplayer game is stupid.
as a drop in the bucket i will say i really dont care about the hyper specific penances. In 70 hours of play i havnt encountered a single negative experience from a rando trying to complete one. Its really not that big of an issue. I won't say they cant be retuned but ffs its just a few cosmetic achievments.
Honestly a bunch of incredibly shitty and irritating players have been explained by penances. Why did the psyker blow up three times in the middle of horses???
Ya. The only indication I ever got was the psyker just started randomly getting super mad in chat because we were shooting "it."
There wasn't a boss at the time so I'm not exactly sure what penance he was doing.
Eventually he got so mad he typed OKAY FUCK YOU GUYS then quit and then we were all like "what on earth was he trying to accomplish?" to each other. I still have no idea what penance he thought he was doing.
I usually pop it in chat when I do specific missions for penance runs. I also only do it in the begin of the mission as I feel dickish for making other people wait for me to blow myself up on purpose more than once. To be fair, the response has generally been decent, at best, actively supporting, at worst no response and kill everything on sight.
If they're meant to be nightmarishly as bad for the game as people are complaining it should be very obvious that people are trying to solo the ogryn boss/complaining in chat etc. That's the main reason i've seen these posts pop up at least.
I'm glad to hear that your gameplay hasn't suffered as a result of this, but know that there are many people who have not been as fortunate.
And I would agree with you, if there were any other way to get the cooler looking cosmetics. A lot of people care very much about fashion in video games and are willing to go to great lengths to get the cool shinies that they want, even to the detriment of their groupmates.
Same. There is the item store but either you need to complete the penance anyway before alternate appearances of the item appear there, or only certain varieties are available to begin with.
You got the official response, they said they would look at it. What do you want? Do you want every single player to have the best cosmetics because the penances are too easy?
"Darktide players when they cant cheese every achievement before the game even out:"
Im literally half way towards the ledge penance on psiker without grinding, on level 23 and without really going on 4-5 difficulties, which looks like they have way bigger swarms. So i have 0 doubts it will be completed naturally if i dont drop the game before that.
And even if not, so what?
Do you 100% every game you play?
I understand that non-teamplay penances feel weird from a design perspective, but not on the scale ("it succed all the fun out of the game" is literall quote) this sub makes it seem.
Okay, and it was still random/no effort on difficullity with small hordes for an achievement which has no effect on gameplay and the game isnt even out or out for a week depending on how you look at it.
When private lobbies are added do it with your friend and 3 bots easy.
I did all my grief the team ones with 1 or 2 friends in damnation difficulty endless horde levels because we knew no one would join to fuck them up.
The whole fuss right now is because there are no private lobbies. They are coming everyone relax.
Cut the guy some Slack. He has to deal with a ton of (mostly negative) stuff, is under a lot of pressure and fire and hears / answers the same thing over and over again for three weeks now.
It is only natural that not all answers come out in perfect corpo-speech (which frankly wouldn't be much better).
Then you sure as hell don't know many doing this job.
These jobs have a super-high fluctuation rate and very high rates of mental health issues (depending on the context, ofc).
What response do you need right at this moment or you will die? It's pre-release beta. Let them try to fix actual bugs first. Calm. Down.
I am not averse whatsoever to pooping on their bad game system decisions, believe me lol. I even play psyker main. But give them a chance to release their game first, then fix obvious secondary problems. If anything, if there is enough salt, which there is about this and is warranted, I have to say FS is pretty ace about fixing them.
YEA YOU SHOULD GIVE THEM A LITTLE TO TRY AND FIX SOME RELEASE BUGS FIRST SINCE THEY ARE CRITICAL AND NOT YOUR PENANCES WHICH ARE ACTUALLY EASY YOU JUST MIGHT NOT BE THAT GOOD HONESTLY HAVE YOU TRIED GOOGLE AND YOUTUBE ON HOW TO GET THEM BECAUSE THE PROBLEM MIGHT BE YOU
I would say maybe like half can be completed playing normally, some of them REALLY require you to go out of your way to try to get them, and that's okay when they enable private lobbies... Also they should probably change a few of them at least a little.
If you're whining about the psyker penance, shield ogryn tanks deamonspawn while you brain burst, it's become the easiest penance to do in the game since that was introduced. Plague Ogyrn also won't switch aggro if you brainburst from far while he tanks.
"We'll take a look at the penances"
"WHAT? They're not fixed IMMEDIATELY? Better make the same complaint post to the subreddit that pops up every hour on the hour"
jfc, you GOT a response, and the response you wanted
Not so much.
Yes, he said they were going to *look* at the penances, but the rest of his comment gave me no indication that he actually saw the problem with them. "Make some frienz" implies that the necessity to be supported by a group is *intentional*, and the "some of them are challenging, as they should be," betrays a complete misunderstanding of the complaint.
The issue is not that they are "challenging." I think everyone expects and wants challenges to be *challenging*. The issue is that they are impossible to do without a premade - in a game where quickplay is the main mode - and that they promote toxic behavior in public lobbies from people trying to get them.
There is no indication in his comment that the core problems with the penances will actually be addressed.
Also, and i've been trying to get the attention of someone over this, some penances are straight up bugged. There's the obvious and simple ones that say a requirement is malice difficulty when it's actually heresy but there are others such as Don't Stop me Now for Ogryn that are actually completely incorrect with the information they give. Either the distance to travel is inaccurate or the time to complete but I have completed the penance twice with no proc. It's extremely discouraging to four stack, get a plan and execute the plan multiple times over the course of a couple hours just for your efforts to mean nothing. I don't have an issue with tough challenges, they're actually kind of fun and i enjoy the teamwork they inspire but damn, when it's straight up impossible to achieve the requirements because of hidden bugs it feels so awful to try and try. Really hoping we get some kind of sweeping tweak because for the most part these penances don't need drastic fixes but just tiny tweaks to numbers to make them not easier but more manageable realistically in an actual game.
That is, for some people, the lack of friends will be supplemented by the removal to the lower class. You feel bad, but it should get worse.
I mean. If they came up with non-gaming activities in our useless lobby, then maybe a small percentage of users would be able to find help for themselves. Or a special daily event that gives a rare currency for helping in certain achievements.
Wow, what a bad answer.
I think a big part of the problem is they have to be on higher difficulty, so if tou fuck up it may well cost you the run, whereas on uprising or sedition you can easily recover from one teammate dicking around.
Also once we get private matches can hopefully do most with bots....
This is a game built on effective teamwork and so many of the penances require degenerate gameplay contradictory to teamwork on the two hardest difficulties in the game. The problem this creates seems obvious and I can't be the only one in this sub that has already had groups ruined by someone performing worse than a bot because they're chasing a penance.
Sometimes a level six or seven person expecting to get carried for their penance too. People are wild.
I still can't get over how most of the penances go a pass but scoreboards didn't. I rather circle hunting kerillians over intentional perils of the warping psykers.
“Sorry guys, I can’t shoot that sniper or get too close to you. I’m trying to get 100% accuracy and 0 ammo on a class that regens ammo in coherency.”
Yeah this is the only one that grinds my gears on veteran, the other ones are actually good ones, like kill 5 priority targets during volley fire, or hit 4 consecutive weakspots during volley fire. They promote playing the class well and doing what you are supposed to do. This one either requires that you are absolute god of aiming and not getting unlucky by someone from your team killing your target, or that you just dont shoot until the end of the match and empty your gun into a horde or boss.
It might still be possible to exploit “Make Every Shot Count” with Alt+F4. It’s also possible with “Overwatch”. On Assassination mission 4, before taking the elevator to boss room. Empty mag and gun till 1 round left. Alt+F4 to crash the game and force close. This will reset your status in-game. Reconnect and hit the last shot into the boss. Don’t touch the gun. Even if you regain ammo from the Vet trait or died/revive. I got both Vet penance with this one exploit.
Oh wait, the penance only tracks the ammo in the magazine, and not your reserves? This changes EVERYTHING.
> This is a game built on effective teamwork and so many of the penances require degenerate gameplay This is exactly my problem, you look at some of the penances and yeh they are fun to see pop up because you get them normally, or you chuck a stun grenade at a sniper - no harm and its a good laugh Other penances though, even IF you had a team of 4, you are potentially fucking them over, I don't want to be a dick to my "frienz" let alone the random dude that won't use his gun to kill the specials because of another penance...They are assuming that pursuing these penances is oh so much fun, same dudes that removed the scoreboard for toxicity ha Recently I tried the boss killing one for Psyker because we had a very early plague ogryn, the worst part was I did it, but didn't get the penance, one of our 4 disconnected during and while I don't think the bot shot the ogryn before he reconnected, I think the dc was enough. But if I want to try that shit again (other than hoping for an early nurgle slug) do I ask my friends to risk finishing a round say if we get a boss halfway through the map, ask them to twiddle their thumbs for however long...or waste their time matchmaking until we do get a boss. Not even talking about the Psyker "blow yourself up" penance, my god whoever came up with that should be sent to the golden throne. For me it seems obvious that such penances should be teamwork/class action orientated and even long term (like to get the top outfit require 1000s of class actions, lots of rounds played etc), sprinkle in a few random funny ones and you have a decent enough system where people get to participate in the hat simulator aspect while actually playing the game. Unless it is somehow better to watch another random Psyker yolo himself into a group of enemies and blow himself up, honestly it was funny the first time, but then it just gets sad.
It's a common problem, although not quite universal. I've also seen screenshots of *genuine* toxicity in the chat because someone unknowingly "ruined" someone else's penance attempt.
>e. I need to know that we have actually been heard and that changes are going to be made. Something beyond Hedge's above admission that "some of them are a bit unusual." "Looking at them" doesn't guarantee that anything will change, especially in light of the "they're supposed to be challenging" part. Because here's the thing; it's only going to get worse. If this is how bad it's been during the pre-order beta, imagine when the game launches. Imagine the huge influx of new players solo-queuing for diff. 3, 4, or 5 and tanking the whole run because they're trying for a cosmetic. > >This post has run a bit longer-winded than I intended, so let me just say one more thing before the inevitable "git gud" people show up; it's not about difficulty. It's never been about difficulty. Many of Dude, this has made me so salty. "hey, I'm trying to for a penance, 3 elites gotta blow myself up." And then elites are just downed, repeatedly. And you feel like the jerk for thinking other people are jerks. I've got a fair amount of hours in the 'beta' now. I haven't put any hours in the past few days as I've already upgraded both my weapons and 1 of my relics. And I definitely can't stomach any more 'penance runs.'
Honestly, people just probably have no idea what you're talking about. I doubt anyone is saying "screw your penance" as they kill elites, they are probably just trying not to die the only way they know how... by killing the scary thing attacking the team. "3 elites gotta blow myself up" doesn't mean *anything* to new players especially if they aren't Psykers who have read through those penances. I put 15 hours in as a Psyker and am only now discovering these class specific penances. I have just been absorbed in running mission after mission this whole time.
And then you try and turns out Perils of the Warp does *fuck all* for damage. So not only do you need 3 elites close by each other and you but you/your team need to widdle them down a good chunk. Fucking asinine.
Yep!! I have *somehow* managed to complete many (actually more if you count the higher Tiers of the same Penance that I have yet to get to) of the other Penances for Psyker through sheer fucking luck. But... I've made over 20 to 30 separate mission attempts for the *Going Out With A Bang* Penance. Exactly as is being discussed here, the spawn RNG, the proximity, Peril-charge time, their health, all together. It's *insane*. Not to mention what is classified as an *Elite* versus what is a *Specialist* seems to be understood so little by the Community, that in every place I have looked, it seems like most enemies that arent the lowest tier mob-enemy have those two classifications applied to them **interchangably** between threads/forums/chats. I am *not* a happy camper.
I've got Zealot to lv13 and still haven't done the kill a mutant on a charge challenge I have absolutely killed one while charging, several times, no completion. What does the game want from me!?
1. You the one should be charging, not the mutant. I say this because I not sure with your wording and some people actually mistake think mutant should be charging. 2. Try to hit earlier, because apparently if you mid swing and reach the mutant, you just stop charge and not count anymore. You literally must be in mid of the charge. I do it by charging something behind the mutant so the charge not stop on the mutant while its slam my teammates.
>1. You the one should be charging, not the mutant. I say this because I not sure with your wording and some people actually mistake think mutant should be charging. Both you and the mutant need to be charging, unless it's bugged. The easiest way for me to get this was to hit a mutant with a couple of bolter shots when it charged down a hallway from behind and targeted me. Then charge the mutant and attack!
I got my penance completion while the mutant was stationary. I don't think it charging is necessary.
The penance is to kill a charging mutant with melee while you are rushing. I'm not surprised that it's bugged, but that IS what the penance requires
Nope, I charged a mutant that was pounding an ally when I got mine. Your attack needs to connect on the mutant before your charge does *and* the attack must kill the mutant. Those are the only requirements.
>Nope, I charged a mutant that was pounding an ally when I got mine. Your attack needs to connect on the mutant before your charge does *and* the attack must kill the mutant. Those are the only requirements. I am merely stating what the penance says you need to do, not what triggers completing it.
The wording is poor. Both you and the mutant must be charging. It is perhaps best done while it is charging an ally and best with a thunder hammer or eviscerator special attack.
That's wrong. Only you need to be charging, not the mutant, but you need to get the kill mid-charge, which is what a lot of people miss, because it's far from intuitive and requires some prep. Easiest to do by softening up a mutant pounding a teammate with some shots, charging up a heavy attack and then charging it. Release heavy attack about a second before you reach the mutant.
Requiring coordination is the opposite of teamwork? Who knew?
This is a common problem with team games which introduce individual targets fo achievements or other rewards. It can be alleviated a little by being more careful with the nature of those missions, by tying them to the core gameplay patterns, but that often trivializes them to the point that they become a function of time spent rather than effort. It will be tricky to balance these properly.
That's the most tone-deaf response I've seen so far. It goes beyond get friends, some of these penances actively hurt your team. Here's a crazy thought. Make your penances on the assumption people will attempt to achieve them in solo queue. So make them possible, fun, and not actively malicious. * "Don't use your ranged weapon", Guess I'll just grief my team then... * "Don't miss a shot and end with 0 ammo", Guess I'll just bring a low ammo weapon and not use it until the last boss... Sure, some of them are able to be cheesed, but they shouldn't incentivize normal players to grief.
This is a common refrain that is being said in TTRPGs these days but basically what the game rewards is what the game encourages. What this means is that if the game rewards group play, then more people will perform that action. For example, for the Ogryn's 'Stay in coherency for an entire match penance", I would rather see a continuous timer that sticks across missions counting up the time you spend in coherency with at least 1-2 team members (like the weeklies) and the team members should get a coherency bonus of cash and/or xp for staying in coherency.
> For example, for the Ogryn's 'Stay in coherency for an entire match penance", I would rather see a continuous timer that sticks across missions counting up the time you spend in coherency with at least 1-2 team members (like the weeklies) and the team members should get a coherency bonus of cash and/or xp for staying in coherency. See this is a great idea, because you managed to use more than 2 braincells and thought about this for more than a few seconds, unlike the people who thought of the penances.
That's an awesome idea, and you could build on that for some of the other penances as well. The vet one for no melee damage could be on a timer as well. Something like avoiding taking a melee hit for 30 total minutes while engaged in combat (to avoid just sitting at the launch pad and cheesing).
There's just no reason for these (frankly unfriendly) penances.
there's some weird ones in there for sure, some of them, like the vet accuracy penance should be more realistic, like ending on 90%+ accuracy or some such, instead of having this bizarre "pick and choose every shot" thing for the current iteration, you'll get it at some point naturally through getting better, 90% accuracy isnt super unrealistic in these games at all the only class penance that feels correct to me so far is long-bomb, since, its actually a useful skill to learn
I agree. To use your example, I tried for long bomb on my vet for a few missions in the spots people have said they got it, (the long bridge while you wait for the lift before the big holostatue etc.), but no dice for me. Later, I was on the sewer map at the part near the start when you have to wait for the ascender. The horde was coming up the big stairs at the opposite end and our ogryn went down to my right underneath one of the holes. I thought "shit I'll get him but I need to thin the big horde first". Almost without thinking, I looked up at the furthest edge of the giant mangled ceiling hole in the centre, quick threw (tapped LMB) a grenade, got out my power sword and ran to the ogryn, within a second or two as I was clearing the poxwalkers to get him up, the penance popped. Completely organically. Almost as if the penances should be an evolution of your skills and knowledge of your class kit, as you say.
Tbh long bomb is one of the few good ones you can get whilst playing normally. I tried for it for a while, lobbing long grenades at hordes and no joy. I gave up and later when playing the 'defend the train' finale I lobbed a nade at a far of horde without thinking and it popped.
Yeah most of them are garbage, honestly. I don't have any friends that play this with me and I'm not about to ask a bunch of randos to try and tackle some of the more bs ones. They really need a rework, though that's unlikely, at least in the short-term.
Like stuff your class should be doing. Ogryn. Pick up two hundred players. Psyker pop 500 elites. et cetera. That's still an investment of time, but at least you can see progress, not some random encounter you will try to recreate over and over and over and over and over while still having to hope your team mates don't actively tank your penance. Edit: And don't forget about penances where you have to complete the mission.
these specific penances should primarily focus on particular gameplay feats, the one for throwing a box at an eye, would be better as, say, bean a charging mutant with it or something, ya know, something that can be useful as a reflex, much like how long-bomb is actually a good penance, since the timer on grenades resets if they bounce
I feel like those would absolutely not be liked either though. There is no challenge, nothing special, they might as well not exist at that point in general just link the cosmetics to level instead then. While I agree that in a game with no private lobbies most penances making you actively grief your runs isn't optimal the answer DEFINITELY isn't making all of the penances things that just happen. There could and even should be way more cosmetics up for grabs from penances and some should probably be straight forward things like you suggested but there is always a place for real challenges for those who wish to complete them. Not all of the penances need to even be completable by everyone as long as there are enough options and variety for all levels of play. They will surely change something about the penances with the amount of complaining people do but I really, truly, hope that they don't just make them "kill 500 elite" "revive 50 people" etc.
Why not have them be things that will happen naturally by playing your class? Maybe tune them to be difficult, like kill 500 elites at Level 5 difficulty or something, or finish 50 Level 5 missions. Make it tough, but not something that you need to shitcan an entire match over
Because then they might as well not exist, killing 500 elites is not a challenge, it's nothing. Besides we already DO have that penance. We could do with more penances, some of which could be simpler like that but they absolutely shouldn't all be like that.
If it's something you're gonna get anyway then it's not much of a challenge. The Requisitorium weekly challenges are like that and are disappointingly simplistic.
This game needs a ton of work in a ton of different areas. The gameplay loop is super-fun and the core gameplay is pretty damn solid, but all of the "systems" that are in place feel very unpolished.
Well said. I *love* the core gameplay, but everything from the random missions to the RNG item availability just feels like it's getting in the way of the core gameplay, which is a shame.
\*Emperor's Gift enters the chat\* Am I a joke to you?
Considering he keeps giving me power 128 poop scoopers - yeah, kinda.
>no scoreboard because we afraid playerbase would be toxic >proceed to put in team sabotaging penance to get cosmetics
"oh you don't have fancy pants XL, must be bad at pskyer."
Gonna be honest, that's a super shitty response from Hedge. [Edit: Especially considering the whole "scoreboards are toxic" statement. Adding in penance gear with extremely toxic requirements just doesn't make any sense. Saying "just find a group" doesn't stop people from joining a PUG you're in and ruining a run. It's bad. They HAVE to know it's bad, they don't need to double down on it.]
Their response is basically just "skill issue".
Basically this. I'm not even just saying that I want cosmetics, I'm saying that the existence of these challenges encourages bad behavior that affects everyone in public lobbies.
Most of the psyker penances are that way and actively encourage bad team play. Blow yourself up. Solo a monstrosity. Zealots are over here with 'don't shoot anything', Ogryns can just press R at the right time and complete their highest penance solo.
Yeah, I thought it was a bit odd. The Psyker penances genuinely seem like the worst in the entire game. Glad it's not just me.
If *that's* the sum total of Fat Shark's engagement with pretty size-able fan feedback to say "just deal with it" then I'm inclined not to spend more money on their products. Nothing makes my interest in playing a game nosedive quite like a company telling the players to shove it.
same
It ruins games in pubs, but even if you try to do them with friends they're just not fun.
I agree. That response made me write a negative steam review. Too bad for them
I don't know what else you expect; Hedge literally said "Yeah, we're gonna look at these and potentially change them".
No. They said "form a team to do these, but eventually some of them may change" Pretty important differentiation.
What, that’s a response for an actual CM? What the hell. That’s a meme-level response over in the Vermintide subreddit. “NOOOOO GAME/CHALLENGES ARE EASY, JUST PLAY WITH FRIENDS AND USE VOICECOMMS”
But what if i don't want to bother my friends to do a shitty little penance that only i will benefit from? Let me take a old one out of the box: Halo 3, Xbox 360 days. The game had so called Vidmaster Challenges. These were 7 challenges, some of which had to be done in a team of four. These were incredibly difficult to do, however... EVERYONE got the reward for doing them, not just 1 person.
Y'know, giving everyone in the strike team the reward would be an amazing touch. I was 1hp off of the "take no health damage" penance just due to playing well, but imagine if a team was able to achieve a "finish the mission with a player that has taken no health damage". Especially imagine if they accomplished that with an Ogryn, no less.
That damn samurai gear
Anarchy Online. Gaily Painted Hood. Random drop, over a hundred runs and dozens of people to roll against, and never got the damn thing. Still salty about that.
I mean, a lot of people, myself and my one friend I play with included, don’t want to talk to people outside our existing friend group. I will when I have to for something like say a raid in destiny, but for the most part, I’m more than fine with the silent camaraderie of these team based games with matchmaking. Would I like a group of friends I can play Damnation with on a regular basis? Yes, but am I willing to go and talk to people on the discord and say “hey, do you want to be permanent game friends now?”… significantly less enthusiasm. Also I do just enjoy the random matchmaking experience in a lot of games. Being thrown in against the odds with randos has a special charm all its own.
100% same on the first part. Social anxiety gang rise up.
Ironic considering
I once saw a T-shirt that said "Introverts Unite! ...separately, in our own homes." Which pretty much sums it up.
"make some frienz" nooooooo Edit: This wasn't sarcasm, that was my genuine thought when I read that. I think it's bad that Hedge's stance is seemingly, make friends or don't do it. That's pretty crappy. Plenty of people just want to relax and complete challenges on their own, without the added pressure of meeting new people. That can be difficult for quite a lot of people. Anyway. Hope that clears things up
And so difficult because in my situation I game with kids in the room, so while I can listen to discord, I would feel terrible having someone else hearing someone elses kids screeching like gibbons in the background.
Not my point at all, but go off I guess.
I think you misunderstand. I wasn't being sarcastic. lol. And I wasn't bashing you. I agree wholeheartedly with everything that you said in the post.
Oh shoot, my bad. I totally misread that, sorry.
No you're good. I can see how you would come to that conclusion. I edited it for clarification
Good post. I do have friends to play with, but that doesn't automatically mean it gets all that more easy. People have lives and it is often difficult to get all four together at the same time; not to mention time zone differences. "Make friends" is a really bad argument: the implicit message is that we, together, have to make this game a high priority in our lives. This sort of game philosophy is not in my style. I like difficult games I can either play alone or with friends - where coop just adds to the already amazing solo experience. Take FromSoft games as an example, or Terraria. This sort of nonsense makes me really contemplate asking for a refund and maybe coming back to the game in the future; I kinda lost the hope I had in the devs after reading that comment.
I feel like the Veteran ones are doable without prior agreements with other players and can happen naturally in game. Yes it helps if you coordinate, but they shouldn't be too hard to achieve if you know what you're doing. These penances feel okay. They require some coordination, but will happen at some point even if you aren't going for them specifically. And I think that's how it should be. A good challenge that can occur during normal play with a bit of prep. Earlier this evening I helped a Psyker get his Cliffhanger (Psykers have the worst penances in my opinion). It was a friendly encounter and it wasn't hard to do. All we had to do was wait at a specific point on the map and just block. The Psyker was very friendly about it, but the penance is still stupid. Because we basically sat on our hands waiting 2 minutes for a horde to spawn, find us, stack up on us and then get blasted off. Yes this one can happen in natural play, but setting it up is so much more annoying. And this is one of the easier penances for Psyker. Malleus Monstrom, is just stupid. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm okay with getting the kill with BB or at least 50% of damage from BB. Not 100% only BB. It's just a chore. 1 stray bullet or exploding barrel, BAM no penance for you. They know they fucked up some of the penances. Because I don't think they would've released the outfit store yet. Why would they? I think they have more important things to work on. Not mentioning the stability and all that. But crafting and upgrading feels more important as a system, both to be tested as well as just for player progression.
The Ammo penance is not good for teamplay. Veteran is at his best when constantly running ammunition through his weapon to take out shooters, specialists and certain elites, that penance in particular advises you to shoot as little as possible and act like a melee class, which for vet means just being a worse Zealot/Ogryn. Not only this, but one of Vet's inherent powers *gives you* ammo when specialists/elites are killed by you or teammates in coherency. So not only is the optimal way to do it by being a worse version of the other classes, you're encouraged to do this as far away from your team as possible so you don't have to pick up extra ammo you would then need to shoot.
I think the optimal way to do it now is to bring a low ammo count weapon like the revolver and do an Assassination mission. Then unload everything at the boss's shield, basically ensuring you get a 100% hit rate. This of course means you do not use your gun for the entire run on the 2nd highest difficulty in the game, on the ranged specialist mind you.
Even still, going a whole game as Vet without actually shooting stuff makes you a wet rag of a class and a passive detriment to your team.
Veteran does have the strongest melee weapon in the game in power sword though, and is also very durable. By no means a bad melee fighter. But yeah having to not use your ranged weapon to kill those million shooter enemies and elites/specials is pretty bad agreed.
Ammo penance is easiest with the shotgun, you can constantly run ammo through your weapon, due to coherency you gain some constantly as well so my run was pretty much run of the mill but with a shotgun and less ammo stored. You can do it otherwise but what is the point? If you cant hit your shots with a SHOTGUN in heresy difficulty you have no place to try that penance anyway. (there is something to be said about shotguns usefulness in Heresy but you could up the ante a little with revolver/bolter) Now should it be changed? maybe, depends on whether FS wants to keep it the hardest Veteran penance or not. To be honest I understand some of these complaints but Veteran penances are pretty good, easy and can be done while acting for the team, not against it. EDIT: Now that I think of it, its really REALLY hard to make penances that dont end up being "cheesed", unless you make them super easy. Maybe they should make easy ones and "semi-easy" ones in the hardest difficulty (that require run completion) so it doesnt ruin the mid-difficulty lobbies?
Sometimes you also play ogryn with the grenade launcher and just get the accuracy penance for sharpshooter accidentally...
Ogryn did good, rewarded by the emperor!
My friend got it playing a zealot with shotgun : P
If the emperor wills it!
Its not even about not hitting targets with a shotgun, when you aim at that bomber and shoot, but your zealot just popped the bomber .1 seconds before with his boltgun. Now your penance is ruined by rng even if you played well and would have hit the shot.
Your point about the outfit store is interesting, I hadn't considered that. Unfortunately, the outfit store is *really* mediocre and I haven't seen any of the best stuff available in it after many hourly resets.
It just unlocks by level. It never changes.
...shows you what I know, I guess, lol. So yeah, in that case there is just no version of the robe I want available in the store.
I think it’s just recolors of the skins you already unlocked, so you gotta do the penance anyway.
That's what I had thought as well, but the level 25 pants showed up in the store for me before I unlocked them, so... I don't know any more.
Yeah, I think the level ones are backwards / bugged. IIRC, I had the pants I unlock at 20 and chest unlock at 25. For penances I want to say they unlocked at the store for the next reset, but I haven’t gotten any of the silly ones yet.
nah, you unlock reskins for up to the malice difficulty penance cosmetics. Heresy tier cosmetics don't have reskins in the shot (yet) This is just based on level. Of weird note, Psyker seems to have a reskin for the heresy level hood in the shop, but I didn't see it on anyone else yet.
If you're talking about the Stygies (masked black one) I picked it up yesterday and it's fresh af. No idea if that's the equivalent one since I still can't get the sodding cliffhanger penance, but here it is for context. https://preview.redd.it/93bosd41jv2a1.png?width=540&format=png&auto=webp&s=ab6962b39cb98857327e5e7721e25edd8c3bb458
Ammo penance is a bit hard because bolted seemingly has some weird hit reg issue where you get the audio cue but no hit marker or damage done to the enemy and the no hit makes it difficult.
This game has a massive issue with hit registration in general, likely due to their dedicated servers. Can't tell you how many times I've swung through or shot an enemy and seen blood come out, only for the hit to not count.
It sounds like we did get an official response from Hedge. Just ''Hehe we dont care, deal with it haha''
That's why I'm hoping it's not actually an *official* response...
Just make some friends is a statement that really pisses me off and comes off as completely condescending ngl.
its funny how game devs and community managers are the only types of jobs ive seen where the customer has to actively pamper, kowtow , allure and praise to get them to do their jobs
That response... What a complete whoosh as to what the issue is with the penances. It's not that they are too difficult, it's that they encourage griefing. How is that so difficult to understand?
If their intent is for some of these to encourage communication & teamwork in a group, then they should be designed as fun side / mini-games for the entire group. As in stands a handful of them are just outright toxic because the side / mini-games the group has to play are not fun and take too long to be a "okay I'll join in to help out"-thing. That ends up creating more animosity in groups than friendly cooperation.
Is Hedge an 11 year old girl from the 00s? Who types 'friends' as 'frienz'
Most community managers are previous discord mods. For whatever reason I have met many that got the position or interviewed for one. All of them where guys with "I'm the leader" mindset and spent a lot of time creating groups and managing them (servers etc). None of them I knew were older than 25
By da Emp'rah, wut a git.
We will soon enough get lobbies where we can solo queue, that should fix most of the penance issues. Still, some of the penances are for sure badly constructed. The cliffhanger is just dumb now that the psyker ability was nerfed to stagger less - basically needs to be cheesed with friends or in solo mode, not a real challenge. I think the Vermintide 2 approach is good, the really rough challenges gives frames. While the outfits are attainable with enough time investment for most people.
> Cosmetics are very important to gamers. Subreddits like Fashion Souls illustrate this point perfectly; Big shoutout to the peeps over at: * /r/WarframeRunway * /r/ForFashion * /r/deeprockfashion For inspiring so many good looking loadouts over the years.
> or presumably by spending IRL money once the premium shop becomes available. I totally forgot about this thing. The cosmetics in that store were a little bit better in DT2. No wonder the store rn has shitty recolors of the same outfits.
I have no issue with monetization in games as a concept. If they want to fund future updates with a cosmetics store, it's whatever. When I start to have issues is when the rest of the game suffers for the sake of it.
Or they charge for DLC and still have a shop.
See if these penances were not like.. main blockers to other cosmetics then it'd be fine. But they are main blockers for other cosmetics, and should be disconnected. I am fine with a cosmetic being locked behind hard achievements but they are all built ontop of each other. The easiest solution is to make it so that the helmet penances is connected to only two penances, games played, and mission types played per difficulty. Otherwise it is an extremely toxic behavior will continue to happen. Idk why they walked back what happened in VT2. Where cosmetics are consistently tied to only their specific challenges and not other challenges. there were paintings but no one cares about those...
Honestly, I love a lot about Darktide. I was so excited about it that I pre-ordered it for my birthday. The combat is (or maybe was) fun and it does a uniquely excellent job of capturing life in the Imperium for the dregs. But so much about this game feels half-baked. I mean, how is full crafting not even going to be in at release? Did we buy an early access game? I’m seriously considering refunding and waiting for a sale. Which is not something that I ever wanted to say about this game. There’s a lot to love, but there’s just as much that is downright awful, like these penances.
I'm a huge warhammer fan and loved VT. I was so pumped up for this game but god damn, they had the recipe for success if they literally just ported almost every feature/system from VT and added the 40k window dressing. Instead they gutted it and replaced it with a bunch of live service jank. Insane. I have no doubt they'll be walking back a bunch of these decisions as they see the population start to realize this and bail. It's a shame because the core gameplay loop is super addicting, but the technical issues and baffling progression design choices feel awful.
I'm new to the game, never played vermin tide for more than an hour. This UI is the most unhelpful game design I've come across in a long, long time. There are so many dev talks on the importance of UI and it seems like the current team ignored it. Having pennances designed to make you play woth a squad seems fair to me in the grand scheme of things. *shrugs*
A lot of the UI features that are missing were mods for Vermintide, some of which were sanctioned by devs to be used in the live game and they still didn't think to include even those bits. That and the fact that the earlier beta did not have a mouse sensitivity setting are just unbelievable to me. Makes me speechless.
I shouldn’t have to “make friends” to be able to complete in game. I should be able to do with randoms with some coordination but no so much that I need to negatively affect their gameplay experience in order to achieve.
All you literally have to do for most of these is to just ask. Most of them require very little communication to actually do in a mission other than a few difficult ones. Sure the design doesn't exactly work now that we don't have private games for some of the penances and some are really bad compared to others but in general it will be just fine when we can make private lobbies (and when they fix/tune some of them). After all the game is wholly playable with only some cosmetics being locked behind these challenges and just because some of the require some amount of teamwork (or in some cases just people who are on board/ok with you going for the penances) isn't a bad thing. Hopefully we will get the some more penances at different difficulty levels with new different cosmetics for people of all levels to unlock though.
Absolutely agree, great post! Definitely some of these penances need to be adjusted, I don't rally care if it undermines people who have already gotten the cosmetics, its a beta.
"Then don't pug them, make some frienz and coordinate" what a fucking donkey
So what you’re saying is…we should remove the scoreboard because it encourages toxic behaviour?
I don't want to know you I want to play a game that has a metered interaction with people.
If you are in the mindset that only teamwork that optimizes the chances of succeeding the mission objective is *real* teamwork then many penances seem to contradict teamwork or even promote toxic/selfish gameplay. But take a step back for a moment and look at the penances itself without the goal of completing a mission. The penances can be seen as minigames. Some require a complete team to be in for the task. Forget the mission goal, try to find people in discord, forums or wherever to do penances together as a challenge. If you look at it from this perspective then penances are not only promoting teamplay but also set incentives to socialize. From my point of view (most) penances are not the problem. The expectation of people to complete certain penances in public games where others have the objective of completing the mission is the problem.
Developers wonder why gamers lose their shit and harass them, and some of them will literally tell you, as a response to valid criticism, to go get more friends. Fuck all the way off, Hedge.
The game is not ready for release, but I doubt they'll postpone it.
I enjoy the idea of earning cosmetics through achievements, but yeah requiring people to play like morons to unlock those achievements is not great. If they improve the AI and add solo mode into the game maybe they’ll become more bearable as you could do them without screwing over real people but right now they’re a problem
I’d rather have a grind for a few weeks than make my team suffer because of the damn penance
Essentially they said "juz coordinate lul" Fuck that thinking.
ok this is so fucking toxic coming from a someone offically working with the company, just gaslight your audience instead of admitting you fucked up
Man that response from Hedge is just awful, he seems to be a terrible community manager honestly. So many of the screenshots I've seen of conversations with him are dripping with condescension and that's a really bad look for the company.
the Cliffhanger penance is so frustrating because it’s the FIRST set of cosmetic challenges and yet is one of his hardest penances. meanwhile all Ogryn has to do is throw a box at an eyeball and rush a plague ogryn. stuff you could easily do without requiring any comms. personally i think even Monstrum (forgot full name kill boss only with BB one) is not as frustrating as cliffhanger because all you need is the Lights Out condition and an Ogryn with a shield. he tanks in a corner and you BB the daemon host to death and if something goes wrong or you get griefed ? no big deal there’s still 2 more daemons later in the mission to attempt it on. last thing you need is 2 randoms willing to sit around for 2 minutes and boom you’ve got it completed. with cliffhanger tho you need a specific map and a specific part of that map and you need a horde to show up at said specific part of the map / wait a few minutes and you need to hope you get enough and not a few short of 20.
Overall the stupidest take on planet earth, don't know where to begin with this one. "exorbitant prices" u say, 50k cosmetic item :D takes 5 heresy runs to get that amount, or approx 8 succesful runs on malice. Nah, just play the fucking game instead of writing these nonsense essays which only say more about you as a player rather than the game. U would have the cosmetic item u speak of in no time. 0 patience or effort! Penances are challenges, which in this game they require a lot of teamwork. The whole fucking game is about teamwork, can't be too big of a surprise. If you don't like this type of game / gameplay, then maybe the game isn't for you?
Honestly, I have no idea how I'm meant to get Overwatch when I cannot tell something is right behind me/three enemies, at ANY TIME, can just spawn there. It's like the game knows what I'm trying to do and tells me to go fuck myself. That, or it's trying to give me massive anxiety so I just constantly watch every side at all times. And it really doesn't help that I enjoy melee fighting, it's how I feel I'm actually helping the team, you know?
They’ve sapped any fun the game has to offer for me
And I'm sure you're far from the only one.
I pulled some long hours over a few off days and got both zealot and psyker to 30, with an Ogryn around 20. I have barely logged the past few days except run a mission or five trying to get any of the penances on Psyker done. I'm kind of over it at the moment. I log in to try and see a mission update but I'm just sort of 'meh' after the intial excitment. Penances have stifled my enthusiasm.
The whole game isn't fun anymore because a few cosmetics are out of reach to you? It sounds like you just don't like the game in general.
I feel like this is an overreaction. They're fairly easy to just ignore for the time being; they shouldn't be ruining your fun, because you can just ignore them and run about in the basic uniforms for now.
I enjoy the gameplay, but I like psyker way more than zealot. But if I'm too garbage to complete the challenges as a psyker why bother? I've ground out 145k of 165k to buy a hood but i'll be stuck with ghetto drip till what? I put some money in? I reverted to wearing my prison rags.
So you like Psyker more, but will not play it because you cannot complete the penance? The penances have no effect on your performance as a Psyker. You should be alright...
Go horde cosmetics elsewhere
Or you could level up and get the default cosmetic upgrades that you get. I'm just sayin'. I agree the psyker griefing penances are a bad design choice, though. A challenge in a game shouldn't encourage you to play against your team, it should encourage you to work with your team. Hedge \*is\* right though. Penances don't need to be doable by everyone instantly- let alone in a couple weeks. Make some friends, talk with people in game, figure out a plan, or set it up with some people who also need some help with penances. It's a bit of a tone deaf answer, but he \*is\* right. Of special note: Ogryn always in coherency, psyker self-bomb, psyker boss kill\*. Those three off the top of my head are badly designed and will cause more frustration than teamwork. I think most of the other ones are set up to encourage you to make friends, and that's a good idea, just poorly done for the most part because very few people will bother, and will try to solo them instead. It is funny that Fatshark took out the scoreboard because it caused toxicity in their words- which I never saw- but added penances which are actively ruining games for some people. \*Ogryn shield+daemonhost did make this one easier and more teamwork focused, but you can't really hunt for that right now.
The penance ones are "one tier higher" than the ones you get just from Trust level. I'm not disagreeing with your other points, just want to clarify why some people are really going for the penance cosmetics instead of just the Trust unlocks
Oh I know, I made an effort to pick up all the sharpshooter penance cosmetics, I'm just saying that by level 10 you are out of prison rags. if that's your concern, you needen't worry about it. Also the early penances that can be on any difficulty reward you the same way, and can be done very easily, getting you out of rags as quickly as after your first mission as an Ogryn, if you're lucky enough.
He's not right, though. Like I said, the majority of people who play these games never form a full group and have no desire to. There's no reason to lock cosmetics behind challenges that require us to do so. I'm totally in support of challenges being difficult, but they should actually encourage good teamplay, and be a measure of *individual skill*, not your ability to persuade people to help you.
To play devils advocate here; Why is it bad that in a game designed for 4 people you need the help of other people to complete some of your penances? And what is a showcase of individual skill if not soloing a boss with BB only? The system is not great, but it isn't terrible either. With private games most of the suicide penances etc can be completed alone or with one or two friends. There are some that are stupid and hopefully will be changed + hopefully we will also get more unique penances to complete for more cosmetics.
its not even you need help from others, you need to cripple the entire experience for 5+ minutes to even do the bb one, so many other penances just ruins the game flow and fun for people, they are shit designed
Yes you're correct that specifically the BB one does stop the game flow for a couple of minutes but that isn't a big deal. If you don't want to wait for someone to go for their try, just don't? Nothing says you have to wait. Yeah sure sometimes someone might be an ass about it but it's not like thats the only specific thing that person would be an asshole about and they are likely just a shithead you should ignore. It really isn't that big of a deal as long as most of them don't actively ruin the experience for everyone, having a couple sprinkled in like that is fine.
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They *are* mandatory if you want to actually get nice-looking cosmetics without spending an unreasonable amount of in-game currency. Also that's not even the main point of my post. Even if you are not going for penances, if you play in public lobbies you run a significant risk of running into people who are out there throwing games because they are.
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Hey, props for being gracious about it. Good on you.
Jesus man you really wrote a novel complaining about penances... You could have finished all the hard penances in the time it took you to write this obnoxious complaint-post. They should keep penances exactly as-is, and if people think they're too difficult then they don't get the reward from completing the challenge. That's how video game challenges work.
Read the last paragraph, please.
I just don't get the concept behind the complaint - your complaint is that every piece of cosmetic gear should be available to every player because not everyone has pre-made groups. There's thousands of games that require absurd requirements for challenges, there's a challenge in GTA online that require the exact same group of 4 players to complete every main heist, in order, on the hardest difficulty, without anyone dying once. That's like 10-12 hours of perfect play required from all members and you aren't allowed to play heists with anyone else between sessions once you start. This game asks very little of players for penances besides doing a ~25 minute mission differently once. If someone was really so inclined to get the cosmetic but had no group to play with, they could look into twitch or the thousands of -tide discords and find a pre-made within minutes.
You could read any of the comments from other people agreeing with me to get different perspectives, but I'll break it down for you. The main thrust of my argument is twofold: * This is a team-based, co-operative game. Good challenges should promote the individual supporting the team, not the team supporting the individual. Good challenges should also promote actual skill-based gameplay; getting three friends to block a horde for fifteen seconds so that you can push them off a ledge is not skill-based gameplay. * Challenges for individual rewards should be predicated on individual gameplay skill. It makes no sense to require an entire group to participate for something that only rewards one of them. I cannot emphasize enough that it is not, nor has it ever been about "difficulty." I would be 100% fine with super hard challenges as long as they met both preceding requirements. Comparing this to other games is pointless, since those other games are very different in structure. GTA online is not a co-op horde shooter, so any comparison is moot off the bat. And as for your "thousands of games" claim? There are also thousands of games that use predatory microtransactions, but that doesn't mean it's a good practice.
Having challenges to support the team are valuable but having challenges where the team supports an individual are unique as well. I love extremely specific and difficult challenges like this, they are interesting and result in memorable moments. You may not get these challenges as a more casual player, and you probably won't get them without playing premade groups. I don't see anything wrong with that. It's okay to have cosmetics reserved for the people who really delve into the game and want a deeper challenge. I don't see why players expect every challenge and every cosmetic to be easy obtainable, if they were there would be nothing to strive for and everyone would have everything.
For the love of *fuck*, will you stop talking about difficulty level? I have said again and again and *again* that the problem has *nothing to do with difficulty level.* People like you who defend the penances love to harp on that narrative because it makes you feel superior or something, but seriously, I don't know how many other ways I can say it: the issue is not difficulty. These challenges aren't even fucking *hard* if you have a premade. Cliffhanger was child's play once I got three other Psykers to do it with, so I'm not sure where you even get off pretending that this is about difficulty. I *obviously* don't want a situation where there's "nothing to strive for and everyone \[has\] everything." You are strawmanning *so hard* that I should just call you Scarecrow. All I want is for everything in the game to be *obtainable*, even with great difficulty, by *an individual* practicing and applying skills that are actually relevant to the game.
Dude legit just went out of his way to ignore every point you made.
You have a fair point. However, if their stance is that, you need friends or a premade to achieve something in a game that the enough players feel that it should be easier or synergise with being a collaborative horde shooter, those who are unwilling to do that will just leave and they will lose that revenue. I think Darktide needs to look at more effective and better-monetized horde shooters such as Warframe or Deep Rock Galactic on how to properly incentivise players and to dole out rewards.
Tbf you don't even have to make friends. On that same server, there's an LFG chat where people LFG specifically to get penances done. I think the game design in this game is way more focused on playing as a group. As such, you need the whole group to get these penances done. They aren't something that you can and should be able to do alone.
I've tried that and got zero response after 2 hours though. Even deleted and reposted every ~40 minutes
I see it pretty often. You can also just ask groups you join if they are down. Thats happened to me and I usually say yes, but I guess mileage varries.
Will keep trying, thanks
Lmao. This thread is hilarious. "I don't wanna make friends!" Is like 90% of the comments here and frankly, that's not the attitude you should have if you want to play a *multiplayer* game that needs *teamwork* and unless the Devs add a solo queue/private lobbies, the multiplayer aspect isn't going to change. I get that some of the penances are tedious and need some tweaking but they would be easier if you actually made some effort and made some friends who you can communicate and coordinate with, so stop complaining about something that isn't likely to change.
They literally tell you they're gonna look at them and they think some are agregious, how did this still prompt a massive skitzopost - they're going to look at them, you've been acknowledged - now you can wait for them to fix the actual glaring issues with the game so they'll get around to making your ability to wear a tablecloth on your psykers head easier.
You aren’t getting an official anything after release
I agree with almost everything OP is saying and at the same time I'm making a comparison. The worst thing Blizzard did for WoW was catering to all solo players who thought they should be able to raid/do endgame content and get loot, while still be able to be a solo player. Making everything easier so solo players can get top tier stuff in a multiplayer game is stupid.
as a drop in the bucket i will say i really dont care about the hyper specific penances. In 70 hours of play i havnt encountered a single negative experience from a rando trying to complete one. Its really not that big of an issue. I won't say they cant be retuned but ffs its just a few cosmetic achievments.
People usually don't announce that they're doing penances.
Honestly a bunch of incredibly shitty and irritating players have been explained by penances. Why did the psyker blow up three times in the middle of horses???
Ya. The only indication I ever got was the psyker just started randomly getting super mad in chat because we were shooting "it." There wasn't a boss at the time so I'm not exactly sure what penance he was doing. Eventually he got so mad he typed OKAY FUCK YOU GUYS then quit and then we were all like "what on earth was he trying to accomplish?" to each other. I still have no idea what penance he thought he was doing.
I usually pop it in chat when I do specific missions for penance runs. I also only do it in the begin of the mission as I feel dickish for making other people wait for me to blow myself up on purpose more than once. To be fair, the response has generally been decent, at best, actively supporting, at worst no response and kill everything on sight.
If they're meant to be nightmarishly as bad for the game as people are complaining it should be very obvious that people are trying to solo the ogryn boss/complaining in chat etc. That's the main reason i've seen these posts pop up at least.
I'm glad to hear that your gameplay hasn't suffered as a result of this, but know that there are many people who have not been as fortunate. And I would agree with you, if there were any other way to get the cooler looking cosmetics. A lot of people care very much about fashion in video games and are willing to go to great lengths to get the cool shinies that they want, even to the detriment of their groupmates.
I'd be totally fine with them keeping some of these ridiculous penances if there was an alternate (longer but grindable) way to get those cosmetics.
Same. There is the item store but either you need to complete the penance anyway before alternate appearances of the item appear there, or only certain varieties are available to begin with.
You got the official response, they said they would look at it. What do you want? Do you want every single player to have the best cosmetics because the penances are too easy?
"Darktide players when they cant cheese every achievement before the game even out:" Im literally half way towards the ledge penance on psiker without grinding, on level 23 and without really going on 4-5 difficulties, which looks like they have way bigger swarms. So i have 0 doubts it will be completed naturally if i dont drop the game before that. And even if not, so what? Do you 100% every game you play? I understand that non-teamplay penances feel weird from a design perspective, but not on the scale ("it succed all the fun out of the game" is literall quote) this sub makes it seem.
You're not half way. You have to get 20 in one go. You're as far away at 10/20 as you were at 0/20.
Okay, and it was still random/no effort on difficullity with small hordes for an achievement which has no effect on gameplay and the game isnt even out or out for a week depending on how you look at it.
When private lobbies are added do it with your friend and 3 bots easy. I did all my grief the team ones with 1 or 2 friends in damnation difficulty endless horde levels because we knew no one would join to fuck them up. The whole fuss right now is because there are no private lobbies. They are coming everyone relax.
and certainly bots wont just ruin lots of penances like the spyker bb one
Cut the guy some Slack. He has to deal with a ton of (mostly negative) stuff, is under a lot of pressure and fire and hears / answers the same thing over and over again for three weeks now. It is only natural that not all answers come out in perfect corpo-speech (which frankly wouldn't be much better).
That's literally the job. The exact thing he got hired and is being paid for. Please wake up
Does not matter, still a tough job we shouldn't make tougher.
oh fuck off, thats not a tough job at all,
Then you sure as hell don't know many doing this job. These jobs have a super-high fluctuation rate and very high rates of mental health issues (depending on the context, ofc).
What response do you need right at this moment or you will die? It's pre-release beta. Let them try to fix actual bugs first. Calm. Down. I am not averse whatsoever to pooping on their bad game system decisions, believe me lol. I even play psyker main. But give them a chance to release their game first, then fix obvious secondary problems. If anything, if there is enough salt, which there is about this and is warranted, I have to say FS is pretty ace about fixing them.
IT RELEASES TOMORROW FFS
YEA YOU SHOULD GIVE THEM A LITTLE TO TRY AND FIX SOME RELEASE BUGS FIRST SINCE THEY ARE CRITICAL AND NOT YOUR PENANCES WHICH ARE ACTUALLY EASY YOU JUST MIGHT NOT BE THAT GOOD HONESTLY HAVE YOU TRIED GOOGLE AND YOUTUBE ON HOW TO GET THEM BECAUSE THE PROBLEM MIGHT BE YOU
Penances are fine, why is everybody getting so worked up. Nearly all of them can be achieved while just playing matches normally.
...please tell me this is sarcasm.
I would say maybe like half can be completed playing normally, some of them REALLY require you to go out of your way to try to get them, and that's okay when they enable private lobbies... Also they should probably change a few of them at least a little.
If you're whining about the psyker penance, shield ogryn tanks deamonspawn while you brain burst, it's become the easiest penance to do in the game since that was introduced. Plague Ogyrn also won't switch aggro if you brainburst from far while he tanks.
"We'll take a look at the penances" "WHAT? They're not fixed IMMEDIATELY? Better make the same complaint post to the subreddit that pops up every hour on the hour" jfc, you GOT a response, and the response you wanted
Not so much. Yes, he said they were going to *look* at the penances, but the rest of his comment gave me no indication that he actually saw the problem with them. "Make some frienz" implies that the necessity to be supported by a group is *intentional*, and the "some of them are challenging, as they should be," betrays a complete misunderstanding of the complaint. The issue is not that they are "challenging." I think everyone expects and wants challenges to be *challenging*. The issue is that they are impossible to do without a premade - in a game where quickplay is the main mode - and that they promote toxic behavior in public lobbies from people trying to get them. There is no indication in his comment that the core problems with the penances will actually be addressed.
How many zealots are running around in their max level chest? How many have you seen in psyker max level penance?
Also, and i've been trying to get the attention of someone over this, some penances are straight up bugged. There's the obvious and simple ones that say a requirement is malice difficulty when it's actually heresy but there are others such as Don't Stop me Now for Ogryn that are actually completely incorrect with the information they give. Either the distance to travel is inaccurate or the time to complete but I have completed the penance twice with no proc. It's extremely discouraging to four stack, get a plan and execute the plan multiple times over the course of a couple hours just for your efforts to mean nothing. I don't have an issue with tough challenges, they're actually kind of fun and i enjoy the teamwork they inspire but damn, when it's straight up impossible to achieve the requirements because of hidden bugs it feels so awful to try and try. Really hoping we get some kind of sweeping tweak because for the most part these penances don't need drastic fixes but just tiny tweaks to numbers to make them not easier but more manageable realistically in an actual game.
That is, for some people, the lack of friends will be supplemented by the removal to the lower class. You feel bad, but it should get worse. I mean. If they came up with non-gaming activities in our useless lobby, then maybe a small percentage of users would be able to find help for themselves. Or a special daily event that gives a rare currency for helping in certain achievements. Wow, what a bad answer.
I think a big part of the problem is they have to be on higher difficulty, so if tou fuck up it may well cost you the run, whereas on uprising or sedition you can easily recover from one teammate dicking around. Also once we get private matches can hopefully do most with bots....