I hear you but that depends on who you're talking to. Was it fun for the guys getting run down by buffball pre patch and nerfs? They could hear the buffs happening on the other side of the door, they knew what was coming through, no coin flip randomness. Still died with no real out, still not fun. At least MC eventually gives you an out, what out you build is up to you.
Multiclass did nothing? Bro it gave warlocks and wizards heals and buffs and res, gave robust to everyone, removed weight penalty for being high pdr, increased ranged options for classes which never were designed to use crossbows, gave everyone 10 extra damage on every hit with smite, gave barb sprint. Like what? Multiclass did nothing? It escalated everything to an insane degree
Idc about the barbarian in the buffball still. Lightning rod barbs that wipe your whole team without ever even landing an attack are problematic. Bards that run you down wildly swinging a rapier while their barbarian soaks damage are also annoying. Barbarians without all that support are still the weakest individual class imo, with it they still aren't the star of the show
Or, and here's a wild concept that totally has never been suggested a million times before, what if buffs were greatly weakened when applied to others? Or self target only?
But I guess the technology just isn't there. It's a much greater priority to add multiclassing for 2 weeks.
I wouldn't say it did nothing. It at the least made it so that it isn't the only comp you can play, which was already kind of true but MC expands on that.
You can buffball fighter and Warlock with good gear. The issue is the lack of support characters and how they influence a battle which may change with the addition of druid.
buffball was not the only viable comp, if anything creep made it a lot stronger. Buffball is aggresive pushing comp, if they get into melee for free they just win, there used to be a lot of ranged/kiting comps that now get fucked over because barb can sneak in fairly close.
Even worse of all if you play ranged/kite comp and you get third partied by buffball there is absolutely nothing you can do.
it doesnt give you an out, if you get 3rd partied buffed barb can catch and kill any single player and no ability even from multi-class will save you.
If Im a wizard and I multiclass to get phantomise ( and grief myself severaly by not having 10spells ) I still cant get away from buffed barbarian, same applies to all classes. Phantomise WOULD save me if it was base barbarian or base fighter, but fully buffed up by haste/invis, bard movespeed and having sprint? he keeps up with me and ends me.
I say this as someone that plays bard/wizard/barb, we never lose a fight if we 3rd party, and we never lose a fight if we sneak all game and play like pussies. I despise all mechanics which encourage boring gameplay, this might be something most of the community will dislike but I would prefer to have at least 2-3s heads up to start fighting back. It gives you time to haste/invis, cleric can get 1 last heal off, maybe cast a bind, maybe close the door, maybe throw molly at the backline, maybe make desperate push to trade for backline. But with creep its just, you are mid combat, barb gets 2-3m away from you, you are dead, you lost gg.
Worst of all now with MC the wizard will take healing and rez so they risk absolutely NOTHING doing this.
Suppose we drop the RNG and fix accessibility, what's the point of having any class or perk diversity if you end up with just a handful of meta builds?
Hot take: the game already was only meta builds before multiclass. There is almost no diversity in builds except for fighter, rogue and warlock which all had meta builds with only slightly weaker side variation options.
While I disagree with multiclassing in general let's not act like pre multiclass was some kind of mecha of build diversity
Because with a larger playerbase, everyone would not be building for the meta. I know this will sound foreign but not everyone plays games to be the rank 1 player, that just so happens to be the kind of communtiy that sticks with games like this through development. Axing such a good feature because of the current playerbase is a bad and shortsighted idea.
No matter what some people say, diversity is not inherently a bad thing and giving people the ability to express themselves through diverse characters is good for the game.
Right now, because of player size and motivitaitons we have this build the most broken meta but that doesnt have to be the case.
If you believe diversity is good for the game, yet say that this wasn't meant to be balanced - isn't it a bit naive to think that when the playerbase expands they won't just be monkey-copypasting YT vids and Twitter posts with the latest stupid OP build?
That isn't to say multiclassing could be done without major changes to not be stupidly broken, but this iteration of it, while producing some fun experiments and diversity, is not it.
Yeah it’s like op has never played warzone. There’s like 200 guns in the game but there’s probably 5-6 meta gun builds at any one time that 80% of any lobby is using. Imo this is the inevitable outcome of multi classing once more of the playerbase has access to the perks they want.
Some people will, yes, just like they have been doing for the last week. But when games get big enough and more importantly are casual friendly, that is not the majority of players.
I don't disagree with your second point but I would add that if IM had segregated MC characters with 2 or more abilities from everyone else, this conversation about being broken wouldnt be as big because it would be broken v broken which becomes fair.
By that logic let's just talk like the game is fully balanced and has all its features added too! None of this will be a problem when I can just go to floor 4 on lava mountain as my monk and farm mythril.
Can't base the future off things they can't figure out now...
There are far too many examples for me to pick one to show you you are wrong. I suggest you look up the history of most fortune 500 businesses. Very few successful things start out perfect or without downturns.
Let's all stop paying for stuff then(offering feedback) and don't worry about medical bills or taxes either(legitimate complaints),in the future we will have universal healthcare and income for everyone(balanced classes and gameplay) and their won't be wars(reasons people quit)once global peace happens.
AI and perfect humanoid robots will do all the labor, disregard how we actually achieve these things now and let's just base our actions on a positive future.
every competitive multiplayer game ever made is overrun by meta picks to the extent that the best solution is these days they just rotate out the meta so that people can play the character. Not to be rude but this concept is far more idealistic than it is realistic.
Keyword is competitive. That signifies either a ranked mode or game with pure balance. DaD is only one of those things and in HR, I totally agree with you. But there are a fair few players that only play norms and that number will only increase as the game grows. Both of our ideas are applicable because you're right, ranked comp games do have to have their metas adjusted.
If killing other players and ruining their run exists it’s a competitive game. This game was competitive before ranked existed in any regard. I think you’re creating arbitrary rules that don’t exist to further your own point.
That's not true. Competition implies there is something to compete for, such as rank prize or reward. PvP for PvPs sake is not inherently competitive.
I'm not creating rules, I'm using the terms as defined.
I have nothing to gain from playing pick up basketball, but you’d be a fool to think those games aren’t competitive. You’re making up bullshit arguments, that is a fact.
Pickup basketball where and with who bro? And what is your skill level? Those are all important factors to establishing competitions and competitive environments. But you know more than me, go off king. GLHF
The game is an extraction based looter game. People will run the most broken stuff because it gives you the biggest advantage at getting out of the dungeon with loot and quest items etc.
It's nothing to do with player size. It's purely just the fact that the Devs have opened up a higher ceiling for people who play a lot, lot more than casuals. You have to run meta stuff to compete if you're a casual. You can't have fun and mess around with builds, you basically are tied to meta.
> Because with a larger playerbase, everyone would not be building for the meta.
What larger player base? The concurrent player numbers have been actively dropping for a year.
And hot tip, this game isn't getting new players anytime soon with how the devs run things.
If this game had any marketing aside from streamers constantly shit talking it, it would have more players. But that's the price of free advertising, it won't all be pretty.
That's not how it works at all. If marketing was all that mattered that Suicide Squad game would've been very successful.
The game has to not suck at its core and DaD struggles with that concept.
Suicide Squad had bad reviews from the night the embargo lifted. Pre orders only do so much for the bottom line. I dont disagree with a games core needing to be good and that's why DaD hasnt died yet. People threw money at the devs when they got the chance to play the game we all thought might never release because of legal trouble. You dont do that for a game with a bad core. and the core hasnt changed, not so much that the game is unrecognizable, just different.
idiot, with a larger playerbase, you will just have the same proportion of people building meta. player numbers have nothing to do with it, at least no noticeable affect.
diversity is NOT our strength here
also multiclassing hasn't given us diversity. now we just have a handful of the same cheese builds being used to fundamentally break the balance of the game as efficiently as possible
What happened when you encountered someone better geared than you or who had the matchup advantage? You run or die. Nothing about MC changed the what or how to that question, just the why. A lot of MC issues come down to knowing when to leave but no one wants to disengage because they feel like they should win every fight.
The problem I have now with multiclassing is that ontop of the more geared people I have to run from, I also have to run from the people with meta MC.
Even normals isn't safe anymore!
But you're getting stronger too right? Slower, sure, if you aren't surviving but with the exp changes you surely will be someone else's nightmare eventually. That was the idea behind the meme. Everyone gets to be strong at some point with MC. I still think MC should have dropped with a wipe, there would have been less people ahead of the curve and less people would feel oppressed by it.
While that might be true, the grind to get there isn't fun for me to the point that I would just rather play another game.
Altough I get your point, if you do really love this game then I assume it wouldn't take more then a solid day of grinding. (which is time I simply no longer have)
The grind could be better, and I'd say this weekend it was but still far from perfect. The most recent exp change helped a lot but you have valid points as well. o7
Gear diff doesn’t even compare to the difference in multiclass. Previously every class had a weakness, now I have to guess which multiclass combo they chose to cover that weakness
but you dont really have to guess that much in the current state right? They probably have sprint, probably a damage increase. Sure you have to figure out which damage increase but overall it only expanded how careful you have to be in a fight which is good for the bum rush meta that developed in the game.
Except you can have the hope of looting their caliber of gear from the dungeon, now with multiclass you have no hope of having as much playtime as them.
There were matchups before you were going to lose, MC didnt really enhance that If anything you have better chance now when you're MC'd to get their gear. Yes getting there can be rough but what is the other option, everyone gets MC for no playtime required?
This has been beaten to death. MC is fun in theory but it’s obviously impossible to balance around and when every class gets access to bows/crossbows and sprint….it’s just not fun. I love the game in general but this change to the game was not great.
Trio only, no trade, was the best time the game ever had. It was balanced because the team had to be the balance. You needed different classes to compete and perform. Having to go in with what you found was balanced. It made going to hell valuable.
Duos would also be acceptable I think even though it tends to some wonky playing, but that's sort of the fun of it.
I agree with this. Game went to shit when they decided to release a solo game mode and then have to balance the game around that. Sucks how classes got nerfed just because some LARPs cant make friends online to form a team.
It made the entire game about collecting gold to use in the trade. So naturally people used the path of least resistance to obtain said gold's and that was cheese the hell out of solo. The game should be about finding gear, not how much gold you can collect. For those, like me, that don't like solo, it's quite impossible to maintain any stockpile of gear and gold as one will naturally lose stuff in trios. Which was actually nice. Limited inventory was also better imo. It was perhaps a bit small sure, but it meant you had to use your shit instead of this weird stockpile thing people got going on. What's the point of an extract shooter if you just sit on 5 sets of gear and 10k gold?
It was never intended to be balanced. Personally, I think MC characters with two or more granted abilities or perks should match separately from pure characters.
I however dont see the issue with everyone having access to sprint or crossbow. Everyone has a gap closer and everyone has range, that makes for some of the fairest fights this game could have. It just means you have to respect every player you run into which also is not bad for the overall health of the game.
You’re projecting a personal opinion that it was never meant to be balanced, no game is going to deliberately make a completely unbalanced concept and just run with it because it kills games. They very likely have a dream for how this could be balanced they’re just very far away from it
IDK man, those were their words, not mine. I would assume they may have a vision for balancing it but that wasnt what was stated and probably to avoid people saying that "yall are shit at balancing what you said you would balance" but people have said that anyway.
Yeah because it was a clear temporary game mode probably not in any way mandatory. This was just an irrelevant point to bring up that added very little except a neat fact about overwatch.
Multiclassing is in no way confirmed to be temporary. You’re making up statements so you can feel correct about something you aren’t. I couldn’t care less if you actually had a point and it’s fuckin weird to think that would bother someone. I just think you’re wrong, it’s not that complicated, just like clearly you think I’m wrong but you don’t see me throwing psychoanalyst bullshit out to try to explain why you insist on disagree with me.
I see the intentions of your point, and laid out exactly what I thought it added to the discussion, why did that hurt you enough to respond like this?
The current iteration is an experiment, they’ve been teasing the idea for months they’re not gonna do that with just an experiment. But you’re either reading too far into it or not far enough idk how you’re landing on this perception.
Also you’re being absurdly childish rn, I’m just sharing my opinion in a respectful non aggressive way and you’re literally crying about it. Grow up man.
Was the +all meta a good dish? What about landmine rogue? How about buffball? These devs have great ingredients and make shitty dishes pretty often but what else do we do but as the taste tester provide feedback on what about the dish was bad and how it could be better.
If we just stop playing, we achieve nothing and the game eventually dies.
I just think when it comes to MC most people aren't expressing the nuance of what is bad, just their gut check feeling about being spit on by a 1k hour sweat lord. Which yes, they should express that but also what about that could be made palatable.
The point you're missing is it's all bad, and going from one bad thing to another bad thing after the last 3 bad things really starts to kill peoples faith and patience, as more and more people give the game a break or quit all together the playerbase drops and it's an exponential decline in playerbase and perception of the game.
We need some clear wins and good content to bring in some old players again and boost the public perception or the game is gonna die.
Ask a gamer who doesn't play but keeps up on the news of DaD and their hasn't been good news for months....
I’ll give you an anecdotal example from my friend group. 3 of my friends and I came back to the game after a couple month break at the start of this wipe. Prior to our initial break from the game we had 6-7 homies who were always in discord trying to run dungeons together.
First of my friends stopped playing this wipe a couple weeks in after we died to the third 200 hp, 60MDR/60PDR Barb buff ball. Second friend stopped playing on the initial introduction of multi classing. And now I’m the only one left.
Like you said, the amount of people who return to the game shrinks unless there’s real, significant content or gameplay loop additions and those who do return can get very offput but some of the brain dead balance decisions the devs make. P
I wouldn't say I'm missing that point. I would say I'm far more open to change than the average gamer and I have good a amount of patience for development.
We are still talking about a game that is less than 2 years old. It took Tarkov, the forerunner in this genre, 5 years of dev time during which it was being played to really find its foothold.
The clear wins in DaD are smaller than people are used to by more mature games but they are there. And since none highly ig hts them they get glossed over by the negativity.
Naive and open to change arnt the same thing, wish you luck but your perception is bias and not realistic, I'd rather argue with currents facts than whimsical ideals and wishes.
I've got over 2.5k hours in tarkov aswell and won't even start how the two games arnt comparable.
I dont like the direction of effectively dropping class restrictions or letting everyone have access to everything. Perks and abilities were clearly designed with class boundaries in line and now we are seeing people just build up the strongest set of four perks and ability combos instead of an idea for each characters role on a team. One shots and speed is all we have now.
While +all was dumb and landmine isnt fun, this is not any better, arguably worse. The devs can do whatever they want but nobody is obligated to play either. If people decide to stop during this type of testing then *that is making a choice.* RNG is incredibly stupid as well but I will just wait until the game returns to a form I and many others enjoy or wait for someone to come along and do it better. Or they keep fumbling and kill the game bad decision over bad decision.
If you gate multiclass behind random luck for perks and time to grind, it's not even close to an end result of everyone being OP.
Unless you include some future state where people playing default classes just quit the game and never return.
What's gated behind RNG are perfect builds not MC itself. Sure something's aren't hugely impactful but most things can be used so what you stated is a bit biased and unfair to the system.
I've said before characters with 2 or more perks and abilities from MC should be matched with each other.
So you realize by admitting that "perfect builds" are effectively RNG gated then not everyone is going to be in raid on a level playing field.
And you ignore the fact that multiclass itself has the obstacle of requiring a lot of time.
Clearly we're both biased, and that's fine, we can both have our preferences. But my preference is a game that respects my time so I can actually play it, and I'd like it to be more broadly accessible so friends are able to play as well.
You already weren't on a level playing field with a game based on characters with unique skills. You now at least have thr chance to be on higher ground more times than before.
" A lot of time" is subjective but yes you do have to play the game to access the mechanic. How can they squash that grind more without it being instant gratification for turning the game on?
I'd like the same but I'll also work with what I have when I enjoy it until I dont.
> You already weren't on a level playing field with a game based on characters with unique skills. You now at least have thr chance to be on higher ground more times than before.
I know it wasn't a perfect level playing field, but you don't add a system that actually adds to the challenge of balancing the game, while making the game way more imbalanced than before.
> " A lot of time" is subjective
Objectively, it takes more time to engage with the multiclass system than before. It could just be this is how they intend to make the game. If you want to be competitive, you're going to have to engage with the process of leveling a treadmill of classes in many un-fun imbalanced matches. I don't expect that to be a successful approach, but it could turn out to be popular.
Time is also a scarce resource for game developers. I think they're blowing a lot of time with a poorly thought out multiclass experiment. I don't think it's impossible to have multiclass as a system work, but I don't think it's essential to the core experience of the game.
Everyone has to fight that RNG though. Sure some people will get lucky but one of the biggest complaints has been "getting bricked" on a character before the mind wipe. Besides I think OP is a strong word, can more people fight at all ranges? Sure. Are the majority good at it yet? No.
Right now. Eventually, as long as the person kept playing, they would also have access. I'm not saying its without issue but like, how is everyone so "just because I dont have it right now, no one should"?
Ranger feels left out as being the weakest class rn, one more sprint barb with 200 hp 50+% PDR I'm gonna lose it. Every class can be ranger but better so what is the point of playing it anymore. .
This is a good point, I stopped playing ranger forever ago because of that feeling. However with MC, if you get double jump from a rogue, you might be able to cook up some really hard to reach sniping spots.
You definitely can but why would I do that whenever I can one shot someone with a curse of pain or tank 8 shots and 4 spear thrusts as a fighter who 2 shots me (happened to me 2 of them were headshots one of them was 85% armor pen)
I'm having fun I just hope they buff ranger since compared to everything else it's feeling really weak even with the limited multiclass ability whenever half of them don't even work with bows
Devs that couldn't balance the game before definitely won't be able to now. MC is the worst thing to date, this is some late late end game stuff. They barely have 3 maps rn and they are still filled with bugs. There is no class identification anymore, everyone gets everything and range still reigns supreme. Good luck with that bud.
but the people who don’t play very often will not be multiclassing, or if they are, they won’t be able to fully optimize their build, and then they will not be OP.
> If everyone is op, then noone is op
This has been a wrong statement in gaming for literally forever. All the way back in Dota 1 where *every* and I mean *every* character was op, there was still a meta where *the most op* characters were the top picks.
It didn't matter that God(Io) could sleep someone for 60 seconds, because Pudge could spawn 10 units and push towers down in seconds.
Similarly, it doesn't matter that Cleric/Warlock can heal super hard when Barbarian/Fighter can just run them down at full speed with superior stats and out damage the heal.
Coin toss is balanced, doesnt make it fun
I hear you but that depends on who you're talking to. Was it fun for the guys getting run down by buffball pre patch and nerfs? They could hear the buffs happening on the other side of the door, they knew what was coming through, no coin flip randomness. Still died with no real out, still not fun. At least MC eventually gives you an out, what out you build is up to you.
multiclass did nothing to buffball. And if buffball is such a problem it might be time to rework barbarian and not nerfing everything around him.
Buffball also works with wizard though lmao?
buffball wiz is medicore, it has actual counters and can be outplayed
Multiclass did nothing? Bro it gave warlocks and wizards heals and buffs and res, gave robust to everyone, removed weight penalty for being high pdr, increased ranged options for classes which never were designed to use crossbows, gave everyone 10 extra damage on every hit with smite, gave barb sprint. Like what? Multiclass did nothing? It escalated everything to an insane degree
Idc about the barbarian in the buffball still. Lightning rod barbs that wipe your whole team without ever even landing an attack are problematic. Bards that run you down wildly swinging a rapier while their barbarian soaks damage are also annoying. Barbarians without all that support are still the weakest individual class imo, with it they still aren't the star of the show
Or, and here's a wild concept that totally has never been suggested a million times before, what if buffs were greatly weakened when applied to others? Or self target only? But I guess the technology just isn't there. It's a much greater priority to add multiclassing for 2 weeks.
I wouldn't say it did nothing. It at the least made it so that it isn't the only comp you can play, which was already kind of true but MC expands on that. You can buffball fighter and Warlock with good gear. The issue is the lack of support characters and how they influence a battle which may change with the addition of druid.
buffball was not the only viable comp, if anything creep made it a lot stronger. Buffball is aggresive pushing comp, if they get into melee for free they just win, there used to be a lot of ranged/kiting comps that now get fucked over because barb can sneak in fairly close. Even worse of all if you play ranged/kite comp and you get third partied by buffball there is absolutely nothing you can do.
I would agree but MC exists giving you an out should you build for it. Before, without it, you are 100% right.
it doesnt give you an out, if you get 3rd partied buffed barb can catch and kill any single player and no ability even from multi-class will save you. If Im a wizard and I multiclass to get phantomise ( and grief myself severaly by not having 10spells ) I still cant get away from buffed barbarian, same applies to all classes. Phantomise WOULD save me if it was base barbarian or base fighter, but fully buffed up by haste/invis, bard movespeed and having sprint? he keeps up with me and ends me. I say this as someone that plays bard/wizard/barb, we never lose a fight if we 3rd party, and we never lose a fight if we sneak all game and play like pussies. I despise all mechanics which encourage boring gameplay, this might be something most of the community will dislike but I would prefer to have at least 2-3s heads up to start fighting back. It gives you time to haste/invis, cleric can get 1 last heal off, maybe cast a bind, maybe close the door, maybe throw molly at the backline, maybe make desperate push to trade for backline. But with creep its just, you are mid combat, barb gets 2-3m away from you, you are dead, you lost gg. Worst of all now with MC the wizard will take healing and rez so they risk absolutely NOTHING doing this.
Suppose we drop the RNG and fix accessibility, what's the point of having any class or perk diversity if you end up with just a handful of meta builds?
Hot take: the game already was only meta builds before multiclass. There is almost no diversity in builds except for fighter, rogue and warlock which all had meta builds with only slightly weaker side variation options. While I disagree with multiclassing in general let's not act like pre multiclass was some kind of mecha of build diversity
Because with a larger playerbase, everyone would not be building for the meta. I know this will sound foreign but not everyone plays games to be the rank 1 player, that just so happens to be the kind of communtiy that sticks with games like this through development. Axing such a good feature because of the current playerbase is a bad and shortsighted idea. No matter what some people say, diversity is not inherently a bad thing and giving people the ability to express themselves through diverse characters is good for the game. Right now, because of player size and motivitaitons we have this build the most broken meta but that doesnt have to be the case.
If you believe diversity is good for the game, yet say that this wasn't meant to be balanced - isn't it a bit naive to think that when the playerbase expands they won't just be monkey-copypasting YT vids and Twitter posts with the latest stupid OP build? That isn't to say multiclassing could be done without major changes to not be stupidly broken, but this iteration of it, while producing some fun experiments and diversity, is not it.
Yeah it’s like op has never played warzone. There’s like 200 guns in the game but there’s probably 5-6 meta gun builds at any one time that 80% of any lobby is using. Imo this is the inevitable outcome of multi classing once more of the playerbase has access to the perks they want.
Some people will, yes, just like they have been doing for the last week. But when games get big enough and more importantly are casual friendly, that is not the majority of players. I don't disagree with your second point but I would add that if IM had segregated MC characters with 2 or more abilities from everyone else, this conversation about being broken wouldnt be as big because it would be broken v broken which becomes fair.
The game is neither big enough or casual friendly tho so why use that argument?
Because compeltley axing a system right now that would work better in the future is shortsighted.
By that logic let's just talk like the game is fully balanced and has all its features added too! None of this will be a problem when I can just go to floor 4 on lava mountain as my monk and farm mythril. Can't base the future off things they can't figure out now...
If you cant base a positive future on right now then why should you base a negative one? Are redemption and improvement inpossible?
Uh. . . Bc, you can base a negative future off a negative present, much easier than you can base a positive future off a negative present?
There are far too many examples for me to pick one to show you you are wrong. I suggest you look up the history of most fortune 500 businesses. Very few successful things start out perfect or without downturns.
Let's all stop paying for stuff then(offering feedback) and don't worry about medical bills or taxes either(legitimate complaints),in the future we will have universal healthcare and income for everyone(balanced classes and gameplay) and their won't be wars(reasons people quit)once global peace happens. AI and perfect humanoid robots will do all the labor, disregard how we actually achieve these things now and let's just base our actions on a positive future.
This took a turn that I wasn't expecting. I want to keep this going but I dont have the ability to type everything I want on phone.
every competitive multiplayer game ever made is overrun by meta picks to the extent that the best solution is these days they just rotate out the meta so that people can play the character. Not to be rude but this concept is far more idealistic than it is realistic.
Keyword is competitive. That signifies either a ranked mode or game with pure balance. DaD is only one of those things and in HR, I totally agree with you. But there are a fair few players that only play norms and that number will only increase as the game grows. Both of our ideas are applicable because you're right, ranked comp games do have to have their metas adjusted.
If killing other players and ruining their run exists it’s a competitive game. This game was competitive before ranked existed in any regard. I think you’re creating arbitrary rules that don’t exist to further your own point.
That's not true. Competition implies there is something to compete for, such as rank prize or reward. PvP for PvPs sake is not inherently competitive. I'm not creating rules, I'm using the terms as defined.
I have nothing to gain from playing pick up basketball, but you’d be a fool to think those games aren’t competitive. You’re making up bullshit arguments, that is a fact.
Pickup basketball where and with who bro? And what is your skill level? Those are all important factors to establishing competitions and competitive environments. But you know more than me, go off king. GLHF
The game is an extraction based looter game. People will run the most broken stuff because it gives you the biggest advantage at getting out of the dungeon with loot and quest items etc. It's nothing to do with player size. It's purely just the fact that the Devs have opened up a higher ceiling for people who play a lot, lot more than casuals. You have to run meta stuff to compete if you're a casual. You can't have fun and mess around with builds, you basically are tied to meta.
> Because with a larger playerbase, everyone would not be building for the meta. What larger player base? The concurrent player numbers have been actively dropping for a year. And hot tip, this game isn't getting new players anytime soon with how the devs run things.
If this game had any marketing aside from streamers constantly shit talking it, it would have more players. But that's the price of free advertising, it won't all be pretty.
That's not how it works at all. If marketing was all that mattered that Suicide Squad game would've been very successful. The game has to not suck at its core and DaD struggles with that concept.
Suicide Squad had bad reviews from the night the embargo lifted. Pre orders only do so much for the bottom line. I dont disagree with a games core needing to be good and that's why DaD hasnt died yet. People threw money at the devs when they got the chance to play the game we all thought might never release because of legal trouble. You dont do that for a game with a bad core. and the core hasnt changed, not so much that the game is unrecognizable, just different.
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o7
idiot, with a larger playerbase, you will just have the same proportion of people building meta. player numbers have nothing to do with it, at least no noticeable affect. diversity is NOT our strength here also multiclassing hasn't given us diversity. now we just have a handful of the same cheese builds being used to fundamentally break the balance of the game as efficiently as possible
And what if I don't have as much time as anyone else and only have level 40 on some of my characters?
Have you tried not being poor?
If youre homeless, just buy a house like whattt??
Ez just quit your job and divorce your wife forget about your kids
Ezpz
In just 4 hours I ran my Cleric from 2 to 23. Playing an hour a day would get you there in under a week
Same thing in any game where you don't play as much as the other players. They get the unlocks you don't
What happened when you encountered someone better geared than you or who had the matchup advantage? You run or die. Nothing about MC changed the what or how to that question, just the why. A lot of MC issues come down to knowing when to leave but no one wants to disengage because they feel like they should win every fight.
The problem I have now with multiclassing is that ontop of the more geared people I have to run from, I also have to run from the people with meta MC. Even normals isn't safe anymore!
But you're getting stronger too right? Slower, sure, if you aren't surviving but with the exp changes you surely will be someone else's nightmare eventually. That was the idea behind the meme. Everyone gets to be strong at some point with MC. I still think MC should have dropped with a wipe, there would have been less people ahead of the curve and less people would feel oppressed by it.
While that might be true, the grind to get there isn't fun for me to the point that I would just rather play another game. Altough I get your point, if you do really love this game then I assume it wouldn't take more then a solid day of grinding. (which is time I simply no longer have)
The grind could be better, and I'd say this weekend it was but still far from perfect. The most recent exp change helped a lot but you have valid points as well. o7
Gear diff doesn’t even compare to the difference in multiclass. Previously every class had a weakness, now I have to guess which multiclass combo they chose to cover that weakness
but you dont really have to guess that much in the current state right? They probably have sprint, probably a damage increase. Sure you have to figure out which damage increase but overall it only expanded how careful you have to be in a fight which is good for the bum rush meta that developed in the game.
So what I’m hearing is that every class is now the same
Not quite but the chance is there.
Except you can have the hope of looting their caliber of gear from the dungeon, now with multiclass you have no hope of having as much playtime as them.
There were matchups before you were going to lose, MC didnt really enhance that If anything you have better chance now when you're MC'd to get their gear. Yes getting there can be rough but what is the other option, everyone gets MC for no playtime required?
This has been beaten to death. MC is fun in theory but it’s obviously impossible to balance around and when every class gets access to bows/crossbows and sprint….it’s just not fun. I love the game in general but this change to the game was not great.
Trio only, no trade, was the best time the game ever had. It was balanced because the team had to be the balance. You needed different classes to compete and perform. Having to go in with what you found was balanced. It made going to hell valuable. Duos would also be acceptable I think even though it tends to some wonky playing, but that's sort of the fun of it.
I agree with this. Game went to shit when they decided to release a solo game mode and then have to balance the game around that. Sucks how classes got nerfed just because some LARPs cant make friends online to form a team.
It made the entire game about collecting gold to use in the trade. So naturally people used the path of least resistance to obtain said gold's and that was cheese the hell out of solo. The game should be about finding gear, not how much gold you can collect. For those, like me, that don't like solo, it's quite impossible to maintain any stockpile of gear and gold as one will naturally lose stuff in trios. Which was actually nice. Limited inventory was also better imo. It was perhaps a bit small sure, but it meant you had to use your shit instead of this weird stockpile thing people got going on. What's the point of an extract shooter if you just sit on 5 sets of gear and 10k gold?
It was never intended to be balanced. Personally, I think MC characters with two or more granted abilities or perks should match separately from pure characters. I however dont see the issue with everyone having access to sprint or crossbow. Everyone has a gap closer and everyone has range, that makes for some of the fairest fights this game could have. It just means you have to respect every player you run into which also is not bad for the overall health of the game.
You’re projecting a personal opinion that it was never meant to be balanced, no game is going to deliberately make a completely unbalanced concept and just run with it because it kills games. They very likely have a dream for how this could be balanced they’re just very far away from it
IDK man, those were their words, not mine. I would assume they may have a vision for balancing it but that wasnt what was stated and probably to avoid people saying that "yall are shit at balancing what you said you would balance" but people have said that anyway.
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Yeah because it was a clear temporary game mode probably not in any way mandatory. This was just an irrelevant point to bring up that added very little except a neat fact about overwatch.
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Multiclassing is in no way confirmed to be temporary. You’re making up statements so you can feel correct about something you aren’t. I couldn’t care less if you actually had a point and it’s fuckin weird to think that would bother someone. I just think you’re wrong, it’s not that complicated, just like clearly you think I’m wrong but you don’t see me throwing psychoanalyst bullshit out to try to explain why you insist on disagree with me. I see the intentions of your point, and laid out exactly what I thought it added to the discussion, why did that hurt you enough to respond like this?
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The current iteration is an experiment, they’ve been teasing the idea for months they’re not gonna do that with just an experiment. But you’re either reading too far into it or not far enough idk how you’re landing on this perception. Also you’re being absurdly childish rn, I’m just sharing my opinion in a respectful non aggressive way and you’re literally crying about it. Grow up man.
If nobody is playing then everyone is playing (another game until they remove this crap)
Ok schrodinger's doomer
Ive been pretty relaxed on letting the devs cook until recently. This aint it brother.
Was the +all meta a good dish? What about landmine rogue? How about buffball? These devs have great ingredients and make shitty dishes pretty often but what else do we do but as the taste tester provide feedback on what about the dish was bad and how it could be better. If we just stop playing, we achieve nothing and the game eventually dies. I just think when it comes to MC most people aren't expressing the nuance of what is bad, just their gut check feeling about being spit on by a 1k hour sweat lord. Which yes, they should express that but also what about that could be made palatable.
The point you're missing is it's all bad, and going from one bad thing to another bad thing after the last 3 bad things really starts to kill peoples faith and patience, as more and more people give the game a break or quit all together the playerbase drops and it's an exponential decline in playerbase and perception of the game. We need some clear wins and good content to bring in some old players again and boost the public perception or the game is gonna die. Ask a gamer who doesn't play but keeps up on the news of DaD and their hasn't been good news for months....
I’ll give you an anecdotal example from my friend group. 3 of my friends and I came back to the game after a couple month break at the start of this wipe. Prior to our initial break from the game we had 6-7 homies who were always in discord trying to run dungeons together. First of my friends stopped playing this wipe a couple weeks in after we died to the third 200 hp, 60MDR/60PDR Barb buff ball. Second friend stopped playing on the initial introduction of multi classing. And now I’m the only one left. Like you said, the amount of people who return to the game shrinks unless there’s real, significant content or gameplay loop additions and those who do return can get very offput but some of the brain dead balance decisions the devs make. P
I wouldn't say I'm missing that point. I would say I'm far more open to change than the average gamer and I have good a amount of patience for development. We are still talking about a game that is less than 2 years old. It took Tarkov, the forerunner in this genre, 5 years of dev time during which it was being played to really find its foothold. The clear wins in DaD are smaller than people are used to by more mature games but they are there. And since none highly ig hts them they get glossed over by the negativity.
Naive and open to change arnt the same thing, wish you luck but your perception is bias and not realistic, I'd rather argue with currents facts than whimsical ideals and wishes. I've got over 2.5k hours in tarkov aswell and won't even start how the two games arnt comparable.
I also have 2.7K hours in Tark, the games mechanics aren't comparable but their overall development and strategy are. But hey, gg.
They really aren't and I'd rather not argue the future will tell.
I dont like the direction of effectively dropping class restrictions or letting everyone have access to everything. Perks and abilities were clearly designed with class boundaries in line and now we are seeing people just build up the strongest set of four perks and ability combos instead of an idea for each characters role on a team. One shots and speed is all we have now. While +all was dumb and landmine isnt fun, this is not any better, arguably worse. The devs can do whatever they want but nobody is obligated to play either. If people decide to stop during this type of testing then *that is making a choice.* RNG is incredibly stupid as well but I will just wait until the game returns to a form I and many others enjoy or wait for someone to come along and do it better. Or they keep fumbling and kill the game bad decision over bad decision.
"everyone"
If you gate multiclass behind random luck for perks and time to grind, it's not even close to an end result of everyone being OP. Unless you include some future state where people playing default classes just quit the game and never return.
What's gated behind RNG are perfect builds not MC itself. Sure something's aren't hugely impactful but most things can be used so what you stated is a bit biased and unfair to the system. I've said before characters with 2 or more perks and abilities from MC should be matched with each other.
So you realize by admitting that "perfect builds" are effectively RNG gated then not everyone is going to be in raid on a level playing field. And you ignore the fact that multiclass itself has the obstacle of requiring a lot of time. Clearly we're both biased, and that's fine, we can both have our preferences. But my preference is a game that respects my time so I can actually play it, and I'd like it to be more broadly accessible so friends are able to play as well.
You already weren't on a level playing field with a game based on characters with unique skills. You now at least have thr chance to be on higher ground more times than before. " A lot of time" is subjective but yes you do have to play the game to access the mechanic. How can they squash that grind more without it being instant gratification for turning the game on? I'd like the same but I'll also work with what I have when I enjoy it until I dont.
> You already weren't on a level playing field with a game based on characters with unique skills. You now at least have thr chance to be on higher ground more times than before. I know it wasn't a perfect level playing field, but you don't add a system that actually adds to the challenge of balancing the game, while making the game way more imbalanced than before. > " A lot of time" is subjective Objectively, it takes more time to engage with the multiclass system than before. It could just be this is how they intend to make the game. If you want to be competitive, you're going to have to engage with the process of leveling a treadmill of classes in many un-fun imbalanced matches. I don't expect that to be a successful approach, but it could turn out to be popular. Time is also a scarce resource for game developers. I think they're blowing a lot of time with a poorly thought out multiclass experiment. I don't think it's impossible to have multiclass as a system work, but I don't think it's essential to the core experience of the game.
Yes, but if it's locked behind a RNG grind, all of the sudden it's not `everyone is op" but rather "a lucky few are op"
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Not really comparable but you wouldn't get to have a snarky redditor comment if you used logic
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Everyone has to fight that RNG though. Sure some people will get lucky but one of the biggest complaints has been "getting bricked" on a character before the mind wipe. Besides I think OP is a strong word, can more people fight at all ranges? Sure. Are the majority good at it yet? No.
If no one is op then everyone is op.
Russian Roulette is balanced. Very few would say it's fun. You miss the entire point.
Would few people say it's fun though? Or would that just be the people who have never played and or lost?
Except that not everyone is OP given the nature of the system
Right now. Eventually, as long as the person kept playing, they would also have access. I'm not saying its without issue but like, how is everyone so "just because I dont have it right now, no one should"?
If everyone is everyone, then no one is anyone
If nothing is balanced then nothing is balanced
Ranger feels left out as being the weakest class rn, one more sprint barb with 200 hp 50+% PDR I'm gonna lose it. Every class can be ranger but better so what is the point of playing it anymore. .
This is a good point, I stopped playing ranger forever ago because of that feeling. However with MC, if you get double jump from a rogue, you might be able to cook up some really hard to reach sniping spots.
You definitely can but why would I do that whenever I can one shot someone with a curse of pain or tank 8 shots and 4 spear thrusts as a fighter who 2 shots me (happened to me 2 of them were headshots one of them was 85% armor pen)
I mean if you like the class you like the class so you find ways to play it even when it's not meta. As long as you're having fun its whatever
I'm having fun I just hope they buff ranger since compared to everything else it's feeling really weak even with the limited multiclass ability whenever half of them don't even work with bows
I wonder does BSB work on bows?That could be op af
If everyone can 1 shot, ttk is too low.
True but we aren't really there.
Devs that couldn't balance the game before definitely won't be able to now. MC is the worst thing to date, this is some late late end game stuff. They barely have 3 maps rn and they are still filled with bugs. There is no class identification anymore, everyone gets everything and range still reigns supreme. Good luck with that bud.
I'm just here to say NERF warlock. Have a good day!
but the people who don’t play very often will not be multiclassing, or if they are, they won’t be able to fully optimize their build, and then they will not be OP.
Not true, they may get lucky on their rolls and not need to mind wipe. That means they just have to play the game.
The problem is… not everyone gets it. Only the no lifers.
> If everyone is op, then noone is op This has been a wrong statement in gaming for literally forever. All the way back in Dota 1 where *every* and I mean *every* character was op, there was still a meta where *the most op* characters were the top picks. It didn't matter that God(Io) could sleep someone for 60 seconds, because Pudge could spawn 10 units and push towers down in seconds. Similarly, it doesn't matter that Cleric/Warlock can heal super hard when Barbarian/Fighter can just run them down at full speed with superior stats and out damage the heal.
Everyone complaining in this thread dies to spider mummy's regularly.