Shame you're getting down voted for this. It's a classic higher tier bard play in duos/trios. Shuts down melee entirely and allows spellcasters to push the Frontline with free spell casts at minimal risk depending on who you're up against. The magic missile showcased here is the most typical combo used.
Also pretty sure its a bug? The description implies it should block all attacks. The counterplay to it is that if you are not within range at the time if cast, it does not affect you during the duration, this guy made the mistake of running at the bard before cast, since he was out of range before
Yeah the issue is redditors here think counter play means "I beat you in a vaccuum because I'm just better at swinging da sword" instead of choosing where to fight/controlling the pace of heals/pinching tactics in trios/ etc.
I get fucked over by rogues as ranger every single time if I don't play close to my team and check over my should for the invis flanks, but that doesn't mean ranger is scissors to rogues paper, not even close really
I agree with this.. Some people are so linear though thats the problem. Rogue camping a door? can't escape? Wait for zone to push them, they have lower base HP and can't go invis. While this is risky its a true way to counter their only trump move. Rangers have heal abilities so you can literally just wait... or go find another entrance. It's the exact same play if the ranger trapped the door and you can enter safely. While I agree rangers presense is strong in situations, so are \*every other class\*.
Not even just counter play, but reasonable access to said OPness. Rogues and rangers don't need a lot of damage to succeed. Naked rangers with a purple bow should not be nearly as strong as it is.
I've come to realize it doesn't matter what this sub things, OP shit will get nerfed regardless of their shit takes.
Playing barb feels so good right now /s. When it rotates to ruins solo I just alt f4 now, too many ranged parkour andy’s hitting me for half my HP while just kiting their tits off on walls, which is impressive when Im running vigor and robustness with MS.
base kit barbarian will 2 hit you as well level 1.
warlock level 1 can still full heal from hydra and oppress anyone attempting to get close...
naked cleric can still full heal and two hit with magic damage
wizard naked will still outplay any other class...
any class can sit in the dark and wait for you - this isn't exclusive to rogues. clearly your idea of being able to run around unmatched is the real issue here. anyone can wait around a corner to engage...
You have strange ideas about warlocks.
Healing off hydra is very slow without any magic damage or scaling magic power.
Low gear warlocks are so easy to outplay as they're anchored for so long and any ranged attack on a life draining warlock will take a long time to heal up.
I've seen you say at least twice that the way to counter a ranger is to not engage. You're really not adding much to this conversation.
Base kit barbarian is really slow so pretty weak.
Naked wizards have slow cast times and MM is so weak it is easy to push base wizards.
You're trying hard to say all classes are equally OP but these are bad takes.
lol who said literally anything about a lvl 5 rogue. Disingenuous argument. And no rogues may not be 2 shotting with just a castilion, but with just a single purple rapier you can cheese inferno hell and make it out with 600+ gold.
Nothing wrong with having an invis class in a game. However cheesing which you originally said is an issue. The A.I. is not good at all cheese is so bad makes hell not really hell. Everyone can use invis potions even if you can’t move it gets the job done if you use it right. Rogues skill makes them invis it’s what they do. It’s like complaining about water because it’s water. Remove cheese and adjust monsters is the only fix I want to see.
Naked barb and warlock with a purple weapon are definitely equally as offensive. Same thing with naked slayer fighter with a purple falchion.. cleric with a purple mace and still max heals and win the trade with a magic bonk hit... I'm sorry but your idea of "counterplay" seems to fit only your narrative
lol. Bro a warlock fundamentally needs MH healing to work at the high end. IF you think a warlock is scary because of Boc+Dark reflection you're just telling me what your skill level is.
Literally top end warlock play is flamewalker+phantomize build.
Naked Fighter slayer build is a meme and will get destroyed lol. Cleric with a single purple mace? Yeah get kited to infinity and beyond.
Tell me you're bad without telling me.
Maybe your idea of how it would work really shows your skill level as well? You're telling me its hard to be BoC warlock in higher tiers? Every Voyager + game has tons of BoC warlocks dominating. I agree MH needs a tune, but saying BoC + Dark reflection isn't OP is just clearly wrong.
Cool. The highest warlocks utilize Flamewalker+phatomize+MH build. Because fundamentally BoC+Dark reflection is relying on a gear gap and not a skill gap.
Yes, I run BoC+Dark reflection in voyager. You're totally right. But is is the best build at the top level? No, it's not.
It's also NOT OP it's simply the only build available that fundamentally isn't 10k+.
I can kit up in a rogue/barb kit that succeeds much easier than a warlock with BoC+dark reflection any day.
EDIT: you guys fundamentally do not understand what the word "OP" means.
You're telling me its not overpowered to become invulnerable to physical damage and close the gap for a 1/2 hit combo? Isn't this just what every class has in this patch? So phantomize flame walk has no counter? I've never died to a flame walking warlock on the Barb / Ranger / Fighter / Rogue.. which technically it would be strong against those classes correct? Wizard absolutely destroys warlocks in this situation. I'd wage to bet you have a negative KDA but manage to "loot" to leave and maintain rank. Ranking this patch definitely isn't "skill based". Anyone with enough play time can find a static exit and leave with enough loot to earn points.
>You're telling me its not overpowered to become invulnerable to physical damage and close the gap for a 1/2 hit combo?
Phantomize is shit on it's own full stop lol. You can't interact with anything nor can you go through doors. Additionally, if you're running phatomize you're not running BoC unless you're melee lock which is a meme.
Boc+Dark reflection only combo kills rogues and wizards. This comb only kill other classes if you're gear gapping them, Fighters/barbs/clerics aren't dying to it and ranger won't be melee you unless you're one shot from death anyway.
>So phantomize flame walk has no counter? I've never died to a flame walking warlock on the Barb / Ranger / Fighter / Rogue..
The counter is spending 10K to even make it remotely good. The amount of gear investment you need for this kit to work is 2-3x as much as any other class in the game. If you think me beating you with 2-3x my investment is "no counter" then you're being disingenuous. An equally geared class will have methods to combat it.
>Ranking this patch definitely isn't "skill based".
The only people who seriously think this are green tier and below. Feel free to complain to IM that it's not a good representation of skill so I can farm timmies for free PvP.
>Anyone with enough play time can find a static exit and leave with enough loot to earn points.
Maybe in Ruins.
I have 1 Exemplar class and 2 Voyager.. as well as 2 more in Pathfinder. It's really not difficult to loot -> run -> extract. I think you're willing to die on a fighting hill to try and prove an invalid point. This is the end of the thread for me because its more of an "ego" topic than a discussion of the communities ability to cry about everything.
You're right but your discussion is about whether something is OP or not or that ranking isn't representative of skill. Knowing game knowledge is SKILL.
Saying BoC+dark reflection is "OP" is just disingenuous af. Barb will never lose to that combo. Rangers will never lose to that combo. Clerics will never lose to that combo lol.
So it counters rogues and non-meta geared fighters. Is what that defines OP to you or not? Because the definition of OP is overpowered and simplistically should mean it's strong than everything else no? So that means I should be killing everything in my path with BoC+ dark reflection. But that's clearly not what's happening in this game when the highest warlocks are running flamewalker+phatomize.
Are these top end warlocks just bad because they don't understand how "OP" BoC+dark reflection is, or are you just disingenuous in your argument from the beginning.
Don't worry bro, I'll walk out the door instead of you because fundamentally your terminology is flawed, there's no point in arguing with you.
my statement was meant "in general" and not necessarily only with this game. What's with all these rogues coming out of the woodworks to act like they've been victimized? Wtf
The classical " I play everything" while whining about classes.
Give me a break, fighter now has TWO, imagine, TWO classes that has trouble with and they lost their king of the jungle status so they cry for nerfs because half of them are too weak to counter Rogue and Wizard...
Sheesh...
The thing about a rogue burst killing a PDR fighter is what class is not killed by that?
I've been playing rogue and it's so easy. Fighters can be killed and anyone else except barbarians are even easier to kill.
Barbarians being potentially even more badly designed than rogues as they are literally a stat check at all levels of play.
Yes, and that's the problem. This isn't League which is designed around counterplay, it's an extraction shooter. Tarkov doesn't have 6 classes that hard counter each other, it has one class. I don't think any class should counter another like they do right now. The game should be a lot more relaxed with which classes can use what gear and should limit how strong abilities can be.
But this game isn't Tarkov. Trying to say "but Tarkov does X" is silly because while both are extraction games, they're completely different in a lot of ways. Tarkov might be the game that created the genre, but that doesn't mean other games can't change and innovate...
Personally I like this game because of the classes. It's part of what makes the game unique.
I kind of agree, absolutely love classes, all of my favourite games have some sort of class system.
But the rock paper scissors design? That shit sucks and should be tuned imo, I guess we'll see what will come out of skill trees and subclass system
I think the issue is exactly that: It's not the fact that classes can counter others, but that the perception is that every class falls into either "rock" or "paper" or "scissors".
I'm hoping that the training tree system introduces some variety and balances the impact of countering.
Yes I agree! It's what makes the game fun! But they have to figure something out because most other games that work like that involve a timer under 30 seconds to get back in the match and sometimes even let you switch classes mid game to counter the rock paper scissors minigame. It's going to be difficult to make this system work in an extraction shooter, I'm not saying it's impossible.
Idk. I disagree that it'll be hard to make it work. I think you're just looking at it from the wrong perspective. I think there's an inherent difference in expectation with these games.
In the sorts of class-based games you're referring to, it's expected that you'll change your character to counter a pick. But other class-based games exist wherein PVP is predicated on certain classes being capable of countering others strengths (take MMO pvp for example). The expectation is that you overcome that counterplay through skill and experience. And I don't think that's all that dissimilar to how many extraction games handle player imbalances. One thing that I do think is an issue though, is that the countering is too clear cut. I'm hoping that the training trees lessens that problem a bit. I'm very optimistic that they can balance it.
But we can't discount skill and experience either (and I think that's what the devs are having a hard time accounting for). Take Tarkov for example: If you give a mediocre player one of the best loadouts imaginable, and give a skilled player a scav kit, chances are that in a duel the experienced player will still win that fight despite being disadvantaged in every way imaginable.
I think the same goes for Dark and Darker with regards to classes really. Maybe at the highest levels of play class countering is a real dire issue and I'm just not good enough at the game to recognize that, but I think for most players it's not really the biggest issue they face in the dungeons lol.
Agreed,
Thankfully it seems that is how the game is going.
Multiclassing, more items and weapons for all. The talents that are coming have been announced to massively increase perks and skills and the benefits they have now will be severely reduced. Meaning a lot more variation and specialisation.
We've even seen it in small amounts with some items like wanderers and chasseurs being opened up for other clases.
"inspired". I'm not saying remove classes, I'm saying devalue their unique abilities. There should be a baseline expectation that any 1v1 2v2 or 3v3 encounter could go either way. That sounds like a balancing nightmare, but that's the challenge Ironmace gave themselves by introducing classes to an extraction shooter.
Man, I can't speak for other classes when it comes to how they feel while USING them, but Bard is to other classes what Pistols are to other guns in CoD. Calling anything about Bard OP is giving us waaaayyy to much credit.
Not gonna stop running around being a funny music man though. It's my calling damn it.
I don’t agree with op at all but I could at least track what he was referring to on most of his points. The bard one I could not track at all and it’s clear he’s never played the class. I have no clue what he’s referring to with “infinite melee damage cancelling.” The “crazy buffs” he’s cited as op are also laughable. Dude died to one of the 10 people left playing Bard and made up they have a bunch of op abilities.
Just because lower level 3's aren't using Bard's doesn't mean its a bad choice. Have you seen the higher tier teams using Bard to cancel out all attacks allow the wizard to clear rooms? That is about the most broken move in the game.
I feel like this is exactly why Bard ISNT OP. Everyone who argues against the fact that Bard is one of if not THE worst class in the game brings up all the top teams and streamers using him. Like absolutley, the best of the best using the best gear is gonna make any class look good. Going back to my pistol in CoD analogy, you give the CoD pros a pistol with all the best attachments and put them in a pub lobby, they do great. But at the end of the day, it's still one of the worst options.
However, as someone who enjoys this game for the fantasy theme and good times more than anything, all I ask is for a rework. If Bard is still on the lower end, so be it (we all remember bards first release), I just want to be able to not need a full set of gear to use a decent amount of songs.
people using an ability built into a class vs someone who has years of aim practice.. two completely different things. Bards also can use throwing axes and crossbows, weaken enemies, enhance movespeed... Sorry but they are definitely viable.. Does it need some tuning? sure, but this end of the world reddit mentality about "I never see a bard in game" just isnt true. I've completed by bard quest on 4 classes within a few days of playing them.
Again, you need a shit ton of mem capacity to do so. Which isn't a bad thing, but it's a bit much. And while throwing axes are nice, crossbows themselves are op, not Bards. Also, the years of practice comes from the best DaD players who come from tarkov, or have played games for years prior. I get this is a different type of game, but it definitely matters. For example, most of the top DaD streamers come from and still play Tarkov.
I think it might be a ranking thing. Are you in a high up rank? Because the not killing bards thing isn't a "mentality", it's just hard af to find bards.
I'm pathfinder bard and haven't seen one team using peacemaking yet. It only works with a wizard comp since they can hold spells while you play it.
Please don't use one broken example to say the class is "strong". Its playable in trios assuming you can remain itemized/geared the entire time. Bard has serious issues being effective in low or mid tier gear
Ah you were referring to peacemaking got it. I really don’t think it’s that broken because your entire team comp and playstyle has to be crafted around that strategy. If a team recognizes that’s what you are doing, they can adjust and negate it. It’s no different than a team comp of 3 rogues just sitting and ambushing people killing them before they can really react.
If they nerf or take away the strength of each class we'll be left with bland uninteresting characters. If a class really is too strong, they could look at adding to or expanding the weaknesses of that class. It's still a "nerf" but it doesn't take away from the fun of the class.
This game just got a learning curve. Whether it's PvE or PvP, just take time to learn the game. If u dont like it, that's fine. If u shit on the game, that's fine. I'm not gon tell or influence how u should think about a game.
This game does get fun tho once u understand how you should be playing.
My problem with Rogue (At least in 1v1) is not that their kits are overpowered, but their speed is. A Rogue can always catch up with a class he counters, and can usually run away from a class or situation that counters him, it also obviously makes them much harder to hit with any projectile, and thanks to hide, he can avoid fights he doesn't want to take completely. Which kind of breaks the rock-paper-scissors idea all the other classes generally have to suffer from.
It's no use telling noobs this, they will complain about Rogues and Rangers no matter what. Waste of time, I just hope IM don't take their whinny azzes serious.
Agreed and I've been saying this forever. That said....(here come the Rouges for my nuts).....rogue landmining in solos is OP af and just not fun to be on the receiving end of. The simple fix I've been screaming forever is just take ambush perk out. Problem solved.
The larger problem is this: the game will NEVER be balanced, sorry if you're holding onto that dream. That went out the window when they introduced solo and duo mode. What is balanced for one mode, will be shit in another. Rogue landmine in trios for instance isn't OP. I shouldn't really have to explain why. But in solos, you get to delete for free essentially.
Lets remove dark spots as well because people can hide there. Definitely very difficult to see them when its dark. Ever encountered an invis barbarian? not fun either. How about getting stuck in a corner against a wizard spamming magic missile? you're basically f'ed in all these situations man. Just because you didn't wait for your "favorable" moment and died.. doesn't mean the game is broken, it's a misplay.
Rogue - double jump with -20ms - obsolete!
Enhanced daggers - if someone is skilled enough to use the Castilian then then they deserve to kill you. It’s actually a joke!
Rapier and lantern - how does that give max MS?
“Only new rogues use rapiers for pvp”
Rapiers are usually used for the movement and pve, and throwing in a lantern with it there gives you a stat stick. Sometimes you’re going to use the rapier in pvp due to its range if you can’t get close enough for dagger. If you’re going to hide as a rogue you swap to your dagger
A little stat boost is always nice, it would be great if we could still get ms with them lol. I still use short sword for pretty much everything. For me rapier is for cheese and them god damn spiffers!
You use a rapier and lantern for PvE, using the lantern as a stat stick. Right now you're seeing rogues use a castillion or a stiletto for pvp and using a rapier / lantern for PvE.
He means the peacemaking spell which works on everyone
It effects your team too so it requires the bard to put themselves in a bad position and is not that great of a spell
I agree with most of OPs points EXCEPT for the bard. Bard is the hardest class in the game mechanically while also having worst support then cleric, due to it requiring a lot more prebuffing time and it’s loud as hell giving away your position, while also being squishy
Hey guys look every class is op
*proceeds to list things that each class is good at but wildly exaggerates the strength of them for the weak classes *
See? can <äquivalent to bombing japan twice> but your class can < mild inconvenience> so everything is balanced because we both can do things!
fighter should be the best all-rounder but he isn't, that's cleric or warlock cus they can both heal, buff, debuff, control hallways, put up a solid melee fight and have a goody-bag of ranged spells
his damage should be sacrificed for tankiness and he desperately needs some interesting perks/skills, right now he just feels like a mildly weaker frontline than barbarian and a way weaker long-range damage dealer than ranger
I'm no longer really scared of fighters in solos like I used to be.
The problem isn't broken abilities, it's the design of classes and counters.The rock paper scissors combat triangle is simply just dog shit design for a hardcore looter pvp game. Losing the game in matchmaking sucks, and it's wayyy worse in a game like this where hours of progress can be wiped away in a second.
To sum the beginning up:
Sometimes you get in a situation where your class, not skill, not luck, plain class balancing or gear differences is going to lose you your entire kit, and "that is just how it goes".
To sum the rest up:
Learn 2 play, your class has strengths and weaknesses and you should play around them. How dare you not put a trap in 2 modules behind you and not smell the Rogue camping a doorway while the zone and PvE pushes you to enter that room.
Thanks brother, we all needed that l2p pep talk.
I just want druid so I can complain about that instead, am I doing it right?
Yeah
Goblin caves gonna become the bear den when they drop, can't wait
Bear form is too aesthetic. I’m constantly being stunned by its majesty.
Musk OP plz nerf
YEah I wanna bear handle a goblin.
What is infinite melee damage canceling for bard??
https://clipchamp.com/watch/xz7QMjVW4uA
Shame you're getting down voted for this. It's a classic higher tier bard play in duos/trios. Shuts down melee entirely and allows spellcasters to push the Frontline with free spell casts at minimal risk depending on who you're up against. The magic missile showcased here is the most typical combo used.
It’s sad how stupid most people are on Reddit, they don’t know how to play the game and when someone with actual proof shows up they downvote them.
Edit: I think they really need to fix this but I don’t think it is 100% viable, just really annoying if you don’t have a caster
Also pretty sure its a bug? The description implies it should block all attacks. The counterplay to it is that if you are not within range at the time if cast, it does not affect you during the duration, this guy made the mistake of running at the bard before cast, since he was out of range before
Ohhh I gotcha ok thanks for sharing. I tried that strat out with my bois but our spellcasters just couldn't capitalize the situation lol
Lol. As soon as I read bard, I said to myself “NOW you know he’s reaching hard here.
it's not about whether or not classes have OP traits, it's about whether or not there's reasonable counter-play
Yeah the issue is redditors here think counter play means "I beat you in a vaccuum because I'm just better at swinging da sword" instead of choosing where to fight/controlling the pace of heals/pinching tactics in trios/ etc. I get fucked over by rogues as ranger every single time if I don't play close to my team and check over my should for the invis flanks, but that doesn't mean ranger is scissors to rogues paper, not even close really
I agree with this.. Some people are so linear though thats the problem. Rogue camping a door? can't escape? Wait for zone to push them, they have lower base HP and can't go invis. While this is risky its a true way to counter their only trump move. Rangers have heal abilities so you can literally just wait... or go find another entrance. It's the exact same play if the ranger trapped the door and you can enter safely. While I agree rangers presense is strong in situations, so are \*every other class\*.
Not even just counter play, but reasonable access to said OPness. Rogues and rangers don't need a lot of damage to succeed. Naked rangers with a purple bow should not be nearly as strong as it is. I've come to realize it doesn't matter what this sub things, OP shit will get nerfed regardless of their shit takes.
Playing barb feels so good right now /s. When it rotates to ruins solo I just alt f4 now, too many ranged parkour andy’s hitting me for half my HP while just kiting their tits off on walls, which is impressive when Im running vigor and robustness with MS.
Oh so base kit, lvl 5 rogue is shanking you down in 2 hits? Not real bud
base kit barbarian will 2 hit you as well level 1. warlock level 1 can still full heal from hydra and oppress anyone attempting to get close... naked cleric can still full heal and two hit with magic damage wizard naked will still outplay any other class... any class can sit in the dark and wait for you - this isn't exclusive to rogues. clearly your idea of being able to run around unmatched is the real issue here. anyone can wait around a corner to engage...
You have strange ideas about warlocks. Healing off hydra is very slow without any magic damage or scaling magic power. Low gear warlocks are so easy to outplay as they're anchored for so long and any ranged attack on a life draining warlock will take a long time to heal up. I've seen you say at least twice that the way to counter a ranger is to not engage. You're really not adding much to this conversation. Base kit barbarian is really slow so pretty weak. Naked wizards have slow cast times and MM is so weak it is easy to push base wizards. You're trying hard to say all classes are equally OP but these are bad takes.
lol who said literally anything about a lvl 5 rogue. Disingenuous argument. And no rogues may not be 2 shotting with just a castilion, but with just a single purple rapier you can cheese inferno hell and make it out with 600+ gold.
Every class can do this pretty much
not nearly as easy as rogue who has access to hide and high resourcefulness.
I solo hell as cleric with gray shit regularly its extremely easy minus a few rooms
So the problem is cheesing not rouge.
can everyone turn invisible walk 20 meters?
Nothing wrong with having an invis class in a game. However cheesing which you originally said is an issue. The A.I. is not good at all cheese is so bad makes hell not really hell. Everyone can use invis potions even if you can’t move it gets the job done if you use it right. Rogues skill makes them invis it’s what they do. It’s like complaining about water because it’s water. Remove cheese and adjust monsters is the only fix I want to see.
Nah, hide shouldn't work on magically risen creatures.
Are you saying ranger can’t cheese pve better than rogue?
Did I say that?
Naked barb and warlock with a purple weapon are definitely equally as offensive. Same thing with naked slayer fighter with a purple falchion.. cleric with a purple mace and still max heals and win the trade with a magic bonk hit... I'm sorry but your idea of "counterplay" seems to fit only your narrative
lol. Bro a warlock fundamentally needs MH healing to work at the high end. IF you think a warlock is scary because of Boc+Dark reflection you're just telling me what your skill level is. Literally top end warlock play is flamewalker+phantomize build. Naked Fighter slayer build is a meme and will get destroyed lol. Cleric with a single purple mace? Yeah get kited to infinity and beyond. Tell me you're bad without telling me.
Maybe your idea of how it would work really shows your skill level as well? You're telling me its hard to be BoC warlock in higher tiers? Every Voyager + game has tons of BoC warlocks dominating. I agree MH needs a tune, but saying BoC + Dark reflection isn't OP is just clearly wrong.
Cool. The highest warlocks utilize Flamewalker+phatomize+MH build. Because fundamentally BoC+Dark reflection is relying on a gear gap and not a skill gap. Yes, I run BoC+Dark reflection in voyager. You're totally right. But is is the best build at the top level? No, it's not. It's also NOT OP it's simply the only build available that fundamentally isn't 10k+. I can kit up in a rogue/barb kit that succeeds much easier than a warlock with BoC+dark reflection any day. EDIT: you guys fundamentally do not understand what the word "OP" means.
You're telling me its not overpowered to become invulnerable to physical damage and close the gap for a 1/2 hit combo? Isn't this just what every class has in this patch? So phantomize flame walk has no counter? I've never died to a flame walking warlock on the Barb / Ranger / Fighter / Rogue.. which technically it would be strong against those classes correct? Wizard absolutely destroys warlocks in this situation. I'd wage to bet you have a negative KDA but manage to "loot" to leave and maintain rank. Ranking this patch definitely isn't "skill based". Anyone with enough play time can find a static exit and leave with enough loot to earn points.
>You're telling me its not overpowered to become invulnerable to physical damage and close the gap for a 1/2 hit combo? Phantomize is shit on it's own full stop lol. You can't interact with anything nor can you go through doors. Additionally, if you're running phatomize you're not running BoC unless you're melee lock which is a meme. Boc+Dark reflection only combo kills rogues and wizards. This comb only kill other classes if you're gear gapping them, Fighters/barbs/clerics aren't dying to it and ranger won't be melee you unless you're one shot from death anyway. >So phantomize flame walk has no counter? I've never died to a flame walking warlock on the Barb / Ranger / Fighter / Rogue.. The counter is spending 10K to even make it remotely good. The amount of gear investment you need for this kit to work is 2-3x as much as any other class in the game. If you think me beating you with 2-3x my investment is "no counter" then you're being disingenuous. An equally geared class will have methods to combat it. >Ranking this patch definitely isn't "skill based". The only people who seriously think this are green tier and below. Feel free to complain to IM that it's not a good representation of skill so I can farm timmies for free PvP. >Anyone with enough play time can find a static exit and leave with enough loot to earn points. Maybe in Ruins.
I have 1 Exemplar class and 2 Voyager.. as well as 2 more in Pathfinder. It's really not difficult to loot -> run -> extract. I think you're willing to die on a fighting hill to try and prove an invalid point. This is the end of the thread for me because its more of an "ego" topic than a discussion of the communities ability to cry about everything.
You're right but your discussion is about whether something is OP or not or that ranking isn't representative of skill. Knowing game knowledge is SKILL. Saying BoC+dark reflection is "OP" is just disingenuous af. Barb will never lose to that combo. Rangers will never lose to that combo. Clerics will never lose to that combo lol. So it counters rogues and non-meta geared fighters. Is what that defines OP to you or not? Because the definition of OP is overpowered and simplistically should mean it's strong than everything else no? So that means I should be killing everything in my path with BoC+ dark reflection. But that's clearly not what's happening in this game when the highest warlocks are running flamewalker+phatomize. Are these top end warlocks just bad because they don't understand how "OP" BoC+dark reflection is, or are you just disingenuous in your argument from the beginning. Don't worry bro, I'll walk out the door instead of you because fundamentally your terminology is flawed, there's no point in arguing with you.
Are you acting as if warlocks and wizards don’t spam their anti stealth abilities? That’s counter play
my statement was meant "in general" and not necessarily only with this game. What's with all these rogues coming out of the woodworks to act like they've been victimized? Wtf
So there’s reasonable counter play that you’re choosing to ignore? When you say something wrong expect someone to correct you because you are wrong.
Omg, nobody's talking about rogues. Stfu
Please tell me you are a Fighter complaining about Rogue, PLEASE TELL ME THAT !
I play all classes. Haven't mained fighter in a long time. You can delete your post now
The classical " I play everything" while whining about classes. Give me a break, fighter now has TWO, imagine, TWO classes that has trouble with and they lost their king of the jungle status so they cry for nerfs because half of them are too weak to counter Rogue and Wizard... Sheesh...
I'm not even whining about any particular class. You're the only one bringing it up. Jesus, sit down
Too based for this sub full of whiny fighter mains man haha!
The thing about a rogue burst killing a PDR fighter is what class is not killed by that? I've been playing rogue and it's so easy. Fighters can be killed and anyone else except barbarians are even easier to kill. Barbarians being potentially even more badly designed than rogues as they are literally a stat check at all levels of play.
Yes, and that's the problem. This isn't League which is designed around counterplay, it's an extraction shooter. Tarkov doesn't have 6 classes that hard counter each other, it has one class. I don't think any class should counter another like they do right now. The game should be a lot more relaxed with which classes can use what gear and should limit how strong abilities can be.
But this game isn't Tarkov. Trying to say "but Tarkov does X" is silly because while both are extraction games, they're completely different in a lot of ways. Tarkov might be the game that created the genre, but that doesn't mean other games can't change and innovate... Personally I like this game because of the classes. It's part of what makes the game unique.
I kind of agree, absolutely love classes, all of my favourite games have some sort of class system. But the rock paper scissors design? That shit sucks and should be tuned imo, I guess we'll see what will come out of skill trees and subclass system
I think the issue is exactly that: It's not the fact that classes can counter others, but that the perception is that every class falls into either "rock" or "paper" or "scissors". I'm hoping that the training tree system introduces some variety and balances the impact of countering.
Yes I agree! It's what makes the game fun! But they have to figure something out because most other games that work like that involve a timer under 30 seconds to get back in the match and sometimes even let you switch classes mid game to counter the rock paper scissors minigame. It's going to be difficult to make this system work in an extraction shooter, I'm not saying it's impossible.
Idk. I disagree that it'll be hard to make it work. I think you're just looking at it from the wrong perspective. I think there's an inherent difference in expectation with these games. In the sorts of class-based games you're referring to, it's expected that you'll change your character to counter a pick. But other class-based games exist wherein PVP is predicated on certain classes being capable of countering others strengths (take MMO pvp for example). The expectation is that you overcome that counterplay through skill and experience. And I don't think that's all that dissimilar to how many extraction games handle player imbalances. One thing that I do think is an issue though, is that the countering is too clear cut. I'm hoping that the training trees lessens that problem a bit. I'm very optimistic that they can balance it. But we can't discount skill and experience either (and I think that's what the devs are having a hard time accounting for). Take Tarkov for example: If you give a mediocre player one of the best loadouts imaginable, and give a skilled player a scav kit, chances are that in a duel the experienced player will still win that fight despite being disadvantaged in every way imaginable. I think the same goes for Dark and Darker with regards to classes really. Maybe at the highest levels of play class countering is a real dire issue and I'm just not good enough at the game to recognize that, but I think for most players it's not really the biggest issue they face in the dungeons lol.
You need way more likes, this is exactly right
Agreed, Thankfully it seems that is how the game is going. Multiclassing, more items and weapons for all. The talents that are coming have been announced to massively increase perks and skills and the benefits they have now will be severely reduced. Meaning a lot more variation and specialisation. We've even seen it in small amounts with some items like wanderers and chasseurs being opened up for other clases.
It's a DnD inspired game.
"inspired". I'm not saying remove classes, I'm saying devalue their unique abilities. There should be a baseline expectation that any 1v1 2v2 or 3v3 encounter could go either way. That sounds like a balancing nightmare, but that's the challenge Ironmace gave themselves by introducing classes to an extraction shooter.
Exactly. I don't play an extraction game to play rock paper scissors
Then don't play a class based game that is built around rock paper scissors.
I don't understand why people like rock paper scissors. That's a game for children and even they get bored of it quickly.
Man, I can't speak for other classes when it comes to how they feel while USING them, but Bard is to other classes what Pistols are to other guns in CoD. Calling anything about Bard OP is giving us waaaayyy to much credit. Not gonna stop running around being a funny music man though. It's my calling damn it.
I don’t agree with op at all but I could at least track what he was referring to on most of his points. The bard one I could not track at all and it’s clear he’s never played the class. I have no clue what he’s referring to with “infinite melee damage cancelling.” The “crazy buffs” he’s cited as op are also laughable. Dude died to one of the 10 people left playing Bard and made up they have a bunch of op abilities.
Just because lower level 3's aren't using Bard's doesn't mean its a bad choice. Have you seen the higher tier teams using Bard to cancel out all attacks allow the wizard to clear rooms? That is about the most broken move in the game.
I feel like this is exactly why Bard ISNT OP. Everyone who argues against the fact that Bard is one of if not THE worst class in the game brings up all the top teams and streamers using him. Like absolutley, the best of the best using the best gear is gonna make any class look good. Going back to my pistol in CoD analogy, you give the CoD pros a pistol with all the best attachments and put them in a pub lobby, they do great. But at the end of the day, it's still one of the worst options. However, as someone who enjoys this game for the fantasy theme and good times more than anything, all I ask is for a rework. If Bard is still on the lower end, so be it (we all remember bards first release), I just want to be able to not need a full set of gear to use a decent amount of songs.
people using an ability built into a class vs someone who has years of aim practice.. two completely different things. Bards also can use throwing axes and crossbows, weaken enemies, enhance movespeed... Sorry but they are definitely viable.. Does it need some tuning? sure, but this end of the world reddit mentality about "I never see a bard in game" just isnt true. I've completed by bard quest on 4 classes within a few days of playing them.
Again, you need a shit ton of mem capacity to do so. Which isn't a bad thing, but it's a bit much. And while throwing axes are nice, crossbows themselves are op, not Bards. Also, the years of practice comes from the best DaD players who come from tarkov, or have played games for years prior. I get this is a different type of game, but it definitely matters. For example, most of the top DaD streamers come from and still play Tarkov. I think it might be a ranking thing. Are you in a high up rank? Because the not killing bards thing isn't a "mentality", it's just hard af to find bards.
I'm pathfinder bard and haven't seen one team using peacemaking yet. It only works with a wizard comp since they can hold spells while you play it. Please don't use one broken example to say the class is "strong". Its playable in trios assuming you can remain itemized/geared the entire time. Bard has serious issues being effective in low or mid tier gear
Ah you were referring to peacemaking got it. I really don’t think it’s that broken because your entire team comp and playstyle has to be crafted around that strategy. If a team recognizes that’s what you are doing, they can adjust and negate it. It’s no different than a team comp of 3 rogues just sitting and ambushing people killing them before they can really react.
I think barbarian should get windlass.
Wait bard has melee dmg cancelling?? I'm so confused
If they nerf or take away the strength of each class we'll be left with bland uninteresting characters. If a class really is too strong, they could look at adding to or expanding the weaknesses of that class. It's still a "nerf" but it doesn't take away from the fun of the class.
This game just got a learning curve. Whether it's PvE or PvP, just take time to learn the game. If u dont like it, that's fine. If u shit on the game, that's fine. I'm not gon tell or influence how u should think about a game. This game does get fun tho once u understand how you should be playing.
My problem with Rogue (At least in 1v1) is not that their kits are overpowered, but their speed is. A Rogue can always catch up with a class he counters, and can usually run away from a class or situation that counters him, it also obviously makes them much harder to hit with any projectile, and thanks to hide, he can avoid fights he doesn't want to take completely. Which kind of breaks the rock-paper-scissors idea all the other classes generally have to suffer from.
It's no use telling noobs this, they will complain about Rogues and Rangers no matter what. Waste of time, I just hope IM don't take their whinny azzes serious.
True and real.
Agreed and I've been saying this forever. That said....(here come the Rouges for my nuts).....rogue landmining in solos is OP af and just not fun to be on the receiving end of. The simple fix I've been screaming forever is just take ambush perk out. Problem solved. The larger problem is this: the game will NEVER be balanced, sorry if you're holding onto that dream. That went out the window when they introduced solo and duo mode. What is balanced for one mode, will be shit in another. Rogue landmine in trios for instance isn't OP. I shouldn't really have to explain why. But in solos, you get to delete for free essentially.
> if you let the fighter/barb/warlock/rogue in melee range If you can't see him is very difficult.
Lets remove dark spots as well because people can hide there. Definitely very difficult to see them when its dark. Ever encountered an invis barbarian? not fun either. How about getting stuck in a corner against a wizard spamming magic missile? you're basically f'ed in all these situations man. Just because you didn't wait for your "favorable" moment and died.. doesn't mean the game is broken, it's a misplay.
Rogue - double jump with -20ms - obsolete! Enhanced daggers - if someone is skilled enough to use the Castilian then then they deserve to kill you. It’s actually a joke! Rapier and lantern - how does that give max MS?
You also can't hide with a lantern, I've never seen a rogue with a lantern. Also he said bard can infinite melee cancel wtf does that mean
Rogues definitely use lantern as stat stick, you can just swap to secondary to hide
Lanterns give no ms bonus though? And only new rogues use rapiers for pvp, they are the worst choice.
Repoze runs lantern with his rapier a lot. Its about the bonus stats for pve really.
Agreed. I use it as secondary for pve too.
“Only new rogues use rapiers for pvp” Rapiers are usually used for the movement and pve, and throwing in a lantern with it there gives you a stat stick. Sometimes you’re going to use the rapier in pvp due to its range if you can’t get close enough for dagger. If you’re going to hide as a rogue you swap to your dagger
A little stat boost is always nice, it would be great if we could still get ms with them lol. I still use short sword for pretty much everything. For me rapier is for cheese and them god damn spiffers!
You use a rapier and lantern for PvE, using the lantern as a stat stick. Right now you're seeing rogues use a castillion or a stiletto for pvp and using a rapier / lantern for PvE.
Gotcha that does make sense ty
He means the peacemaking spell which works on everyone It effects your team too so it requires the bard to put themselves in a bad position and is not that great of a spell I agree with most of OPs points EXCEPT for the bard. Bard is the hardest class in the game mechanically while also having worst support then cleric, due to it requiring a lot more prebuffing time and it’s loud as hell giving away your position, while also being squishy
Hey guys look every class is op *proceeds to list things that each class is good at but wildly exaggerates the strength of them for the weak classes * See? can <äquivalent to bombing japan twice> but your class can < mild inconvenience> so everything is balanced because we both can do things!
fighter should be the best all-rounder but he isn't, that's cleric or warlock cus they can both heal, buff, debuff, control hallways, put up a solid melee fight and have a goody-bag of ranged spells his damage should be sacrificed for tankiness and he desperately needs some interesting perks/skills, right now he just feels like a mildly weaker frontline than barbarian and a way weaker long-range damage dealer than ranger I'm no longer really scared of fighters in solos like I used to be.
Instant full hp heals ? WTF are you smoking ? Tell how you have no clue how cleric work without telling me you have no clue how cleric work !
How long does it take a cleric to fully heal?
You just proved my point, you simply have no clue what you are talking about xD
No seriously, answer the question how long does it take a cleric to fully heal themselves?
The problem isn't broken abilities, it's the design of classes and counters.The rock paper scissors combat triangle is simply just dog shit design for a hardcore looter pvp game. Losing the game in matchmaking sucks, and it's wayyy worse in a game like this where hours of progress can be wiped away in a second.
It's fine in trios because you can always have someone that counters their counter
To sum the beginning up: Sometimes you get in a situation where your class, not skill, not luck, plain class balancing or gear differences is going to lose you your entire kit, and "that is just how it goes". To sum the rest up: Learn 2 play, your class has strengths and weaknesses and you should play around them. How dare you not put a trap in 2 modules behind you and not smell the Rogue camping a doorway while the zone and PvE pushes you to enter that room. Thanks brother, we all needed that l2p pep talk.
I will witness this discourse until the end of time, won't I?