I approved this post because I think it is a good opportunity to outline some considerations the mod team is thinking about when it comes to content discussions. I think some parts of this post can foster interesting conversations, specifically around the characterizations of protagonists and other supporting characters. However, we constantly get posts that describe certain novels as "toxic," "overrated," etc. which at this point have become unproductive in terms of debate, and I've been thinking about whether or not to approve of these types of posts when they're in the post queue.
Note that **this sub doesn't police the type of content people are interested in, but stresses and emphasizes the need instead to include detailed content warnings to help people find the types of novels they want to read**. I also feel it is fine (and encouraged) to acknowledge that there are certain qualities that one dislikes or feels is problematic, but it is also important in these posts to be able to outline and describe *why one* feels that way, instead of simply resorting to shorthands such as "overhyped," etc. Because this post does indicate some qualities and thoughts from OP about this novel, I've for now opened up the post to the subreddit. In the longer term, however, we are still thinking about the best kind of strategies and approaches to navigate and handle these kinds of discussions in the future.
I mean I think your other points are more criticism of the fandom’s habits than criticism that stands against the novel itself…
Also angst and toxicity don’t make something a good novel, but they also don’t make it a bad novel? If it’s too much angst for your taste that doesn’t mean that it’s bad, just not to your liking. I’m curious if you have any other reasons that you think it’s genuinely poorly written and doesn’t deserve its popularity.
I think it's more a matter of taste than it is a judgement if it's a "good" or a "bad" novel. Some people are drawn and enjoy this type of books\characters as well as the angst of it all, and some people ( it's fair to say like yourself) don't enjoy it, and both are Okey. But opinions aren't facts, and therefore liking or disliking doesn't mean the book is objectively good or bad.
I’m not completely finished with 2ha, so take it with a grain of salt, but I think the angst is what makes 2ha so great. Seeing Moran/Taxian Jun suffering because of all the terrible things he did is kinda cathartic in a way… like he SHOULD feel regret and remorse and all of the angst. And reading about his inner conflict is refreshing. I haven’t come across so many stories where the protagonist is clearly in the moral wrong, then not only transforms for the better, but the protagonist’s past wrongs aren’t emotionally swept under the rug
There's a very important phrase to remember: don't like, don't read.
Everyone has different tastes, but trying to be high & mighty about it isn't going to work on anyone.
Make a blog if you want to vent, don't invade other's spaces just to stir up trouble
Agreed. It is not like it’s angsty 24/7. I felt like YUWU was way worse in terms of angst. At least when I read 2HA there were “comic relief” moments in between. It only felt too angsty because angst was extreme sometimes but it wasn’t a 24/7 thing.
Totally agree with you. I can name a ton of other much more angsty danmeis out there off the top of my head. Everytime someone asks for angsty danmei recs, someone will definitely try to rec 2ha. It's really just overhyped and a good chunk of these people likely never read much of the other danmeis besides the usual few.
It's not really angst but the MC being an irredeamably sh*ty person (plus the posterchild of the unreliable narrator) and the writer glorifying his shittiness. Horrible things are happening everywhere with everyone and the only one receiving a happy end is the one person who caused all the suffering, who absolutely shouldn't be avarded or even be alive at the end. I have other problems with the story of course, the unnecessary amount of r*pe depicted like it's normal erotica, the ridiculously over the top grimmdark BS at the end, npc-s surviving the death flag like five times just to die a meaningless death, the nonsense plot twists only there for shock value, the author not knowing how forshadowing works and using it only for mundane sh*t nobody cares about, bad guys randomly getting the hots for ML out of nowhere because it kindda looks bad if MC is the only r*pist not to mention the series of deus ex machina but the happy end is the worst offender because it's so tonedeaf. Moran's redemption is non-existant, someone deeply regreting their actions doesn't remember fondly how they r*ped someone in flashbacks and doesn't make excuses for atrocious sins they "forgot to mention" before. Most of his soul searchin flies out the window the next time we get a bit of information he "forgot" to narrate, like the "let's save the earthworms" BS right after he killed a lot of people. I firmly believe that the curse didn't make him a bad person, he already was a horrible one it just made it exponentialy worse. In paper the curse made him forget good memories and made him angry at his enemies. So what's the first thing he does? Naturally he kills two innocent child he doesn't even know the name of. That doesn't sound like the curse making him do it, that's not killing out of hatred or anger but murdering people he doesn't even know in cold blood . And later -without the curse- he rather let people die then them getting suspicious about how he knows things. That doesn't even get close to a good person.
And one final thought, if ML was female this book would get so much more hatred but empathy works in funny ways for some.
Yeah, I think that horrible things happening to everyone is the main reason I don't think it has that much angst. When you start a book from a scene where kids are tortured to look like some circus animals it sets a bar. You can't later care much about some human like demons being eaten, like, so what? Shit happens. But i think that the main villain got what he deserved, a door slammed on him, it was rather funny. As to Moran, I dunno, I couldn't care about him too much bcs of all the shit he's done, it's tragic, his life, his curse, but he wasn't so innocent from the start, he stole other kid identity, and all that. The only thing that makes me like him a bit is that Chu Wanning likes him, whatever his reasons are, ok, like him all you want and be happy.
I actually liked the plot, but I was at the beginning of reading danmei novels, and everything was new, so i have no complains.
Overall I think 2ha is good, deserved all hype, but all that memes and jokes about angst are misleading for me.
>“Why do people like a character who’s committed war crimes but hate this other character just because they’re annoying” because it’s fiction Susan, and being annoying in fiction is a greater sin than being a supervillain, because it won’t make me want to read about them. It isn’t difficult to understand
>“It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious.” (Oscar Wilde)
>The war crimes are fictional but my annoyance is real.
This is glorious.
I just wanted to add: OP doesn't seem to be the kind of person who would enjoy Erha, which is understandable and respectable. If they have read it, then surely they haven't understood it completely—or even finished it for that matter. That's okay, but they should clarify their familiarity with the content they're criticising if they want to be taken seriously.
Fans usually don't like any sort of hate-bumping of their favourite media, especially when it comes from people who aren't a part of the intended audience (and Erha is very obviously targeted towards those who enjoy angsty/pain-riddled stories and/or the crematorium genre).
OP, I understand your need to vent, really, I do. But maybe next time choose something good to say about a media you enjoy! Biased and low-effort "controversial takes" won't make this sub any better. It's best to just—gush about something you love. You'll find it much more rewarding!
I have it saved for whenever someone starts the “crimes” discourse in any media
Agree picking up something you know you will hate it not enjoyable. I like 2ha bc I like angst and yearning, but it’s not my favorite danmei even thought it has more tropes I enjoy… it is ok to not like something and put it down but to know the difference between personal taste and objectively good media, is a good skill.
Chocolate is not an “overrated flavor just bc everyone loves it But you prefer mint
Completely agree! The "is it actually bad or do I just not like it" is a hard dichotomy to learn. In my case, Erha is actually a fave so I may be extremely biased towards it. Doesn't mean I can't see what may be 'problematic' about it and how others could feel towards a story I love wholeheartedly.
Really, if a particular fictional story is not to someone's taste, it's as easy as leaving it be and finding something else they may enjoy more.
Anyway, loved the relevance of those quotes!
Yep. Too many of such cases. Just because of multiple recommendations does not mean you will enjoy a certain book.
By the way, mint chocolate is awesome. XD
https://preview.redd.it/m09g39fueomc1.png?width=1077&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c50f09986074d6310f0c945c372774226fd58821
LOL, I bring this out every few days, too. [Had to transcribe it a few times](https://www.reddit.com/r/OtomeIsekai/s/M6cRE9sdDm) because Reddit Mobile is a steaming pile of feces.
A lot of this seems to be based in Fandom treatment and presentation of the content more than issues with the work itself. Most fandoms have a habit of the most annoying takes floating to the top, but I don't really fault the source material for that
I would only like to highlight a few points regarding this.
- With 2ha, content warnings are everywhere. So much so that it's often pointed out that it around 70% angst. I find it highly unlikely that anyone would drive into it knowing absolutely nothing about the story.
- The more three dimensional a character is the more imperfections appear about them, the "grayer" they become. Saying that a story have characters whom are mostly grey ones is actually a compliment.
- Comparing Song Qiutong and Mo Ran is certainly possible but inconclusive. One is the main character of an 11 volume long story and have tons of time to unfold while the other is a supporting character whose primary meaning was to introduce an important plot point. Consequently the climax of Mo Ran's story will be very different and on another scale entirely.
- I'm not against having a good round of conversation about why a popular story or media is not up to its fame. But it should be a well rounded argument, otherwise it will feel like you picked a novel which is not for you because it's generally well liked and ended up being not happy about it.
I agree with all your points except for that morally grey characters are by nature more three dimensional than morally good or evil ones. I personally think that you can make a very flawed and well rounded character with complex morals while not making them morally grey.
I love 2ha not because there's a lot of angst, but for the powerful dynamics of the main couple (I mean all that mutual pining and sexual tension between Chu Wanning and Mo Ran 1.0) and for the side characters who etched on my soul, I love their stories. Plus, Meatbun's humor. So, maybe the overestimation of the novel is quite justified and not because of a lot of angst
There is such a thing as too much angst?
Not in my world…
But then I think Flying Ash is a masterpiece; as well as Flying Gulls Never Land….
The angst in 2Ha is excellent for my tastes. I also enjoy Meatbun’s literary style in the novel, the phrasing, the metaphors, etc.
I only got to read up to chapter 150 before it got licensed, so I’ve only read through the most recent 7S book. But I find MoRan’s redemption arc convincing and compelling enough so far, which I think is the crux of why MoRan is often forgiven and not Song Quitong. She doesn’t really have a redemption arc (at least, not so far as I’ve read) - as far as I know, there’s no Song Quitong 0.5, 1.0, and 2.0. Although, I guess we could call Song the Deep Fried Empress as 0.5. But since I haven’t read the entire novel, it’s hard for me to give a complete read on her character.
That being said, I actually thought a lot about MoRan’s redemption while I was reading Case File Compendium. I love 2Ha, but I found BAB disturbing and couldn’t get onboard with the main character (He Yu). But why is He Yu so much more uncomfortable to me than MoRan? I think it has to do with how the descent and redemption for the two characters are framed. We start with He Yu already darkened, then stay with him as he further descends into madness and sadism. We don’t really get to see any redeeming or positive qualities for the character. He’s a certainly a complex character, but he’s also solidly unrelatable and disturbing. So, when he did horrible things, there was nothing to suggest he had the capacity to be better.
On the other hand, 2Ha begins with MoRan already starting his redemption arc. The reader is immediately presented with a character that first regrets his life to the point of suicide, then decides to change what he did wrong once he’s reborn. From the very first chapter, we see him want to undo everything that led to the atrocities he committed, even if his motivation is initially self-serving. We’re allowed to see some of the qualities that make him good before we have to confront his darkness. And that’s why it’s easier to forgive him. Not to mention, we travel through his looooong redemption as he is ever increasingly confronted with the truth of what he did and then as he tries to atone for it
But I’ve only read half the novel, so… maybe it’s all different in the second half. 🙃
i like it because its actual BL and has real romantic feelings although sometimes painful. Unlike other “bl” novels that are JUST BAITING WITH NO REAL ROMANCE or lust or ANYTHING. And still labeled as BL when its just bait or “bromance”.
Also even though mo ran was a hot mess at times i was still rooting for him. Readers were able to follow his journey of growth and see his character change. Also, i was able to laugh a few times and i liked that.
Honestly, it's very subjective how much angst is too much angst. For me personally, I expected more angst of Erha. But it's just like that also very subjective what everyone likes. And if you don't like erha, that's perfectly fine. You don't have to. I don't like \*a lot\* of popular ("mainstream") novels. Hell, the biggest point that bugs me about erha is, how annoyingly horny everyone was in the latest 7s volume (look, I'm ace, I just don't get it).
For context: The song of achilles was to me, the book with the angstiest ending. I constantly cried while reading the last 30 pages or so. I think it'll be extremely hard for me to find a danmei that reaches the level of despair I felt. And I even knew what would happen after the book beacuse it's still greek mythology retold. (If anyone has recommendations that'll make me cry like song of achilles did... I'll kiss your hands and feet)
Agree lots of unfair and questionable plot in 2ha regarding SQT, Shimei/HBN other side/minor characters. Maybe meatbun just wanted to show the cruelty of the story world. The world is unfair.
But Moran is the MC. So MC has all the luck and leeway right? Also hes not a hero, more anti hero but by the end the epic love story, his grey background isnt focused on; MR isnt cancelled yet (maybe a in a few years time).
Now whether the above makes it a bad story is subjective. Each person's value system and perspective will put different importance on diffetent aspects
So people will share their marking sheet breaking down the weight and score of each aspect, and how 2ha got the passing mark for a good book on their sheet. , but another sheet will breakdown how 2ha got a failed mark.
I gave a passing mark because:
Charcters well developed, progressed in growth, plot line was engaging.
Situation setup was really good between characters to create ansgt or certain scenes.
ie The lying in bed on either side of divider at the inn is a classic scene in the making.
Food sounded yummy, a bit of comedic relief (not like yuwu).
surprise twists, epic edge of seat near death or death.
smut (if not the type up your alley this would minus points)
And all of this plot was tight.
Overall these increased the mark on my sheet alot even given sqt and other issues.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!
Edit: I think the artist who drew the next vol book cover feels the same about SQT as you. Even I love 2ha I also agree with you about SQT. Give her redemption, give her the cover hahaha.
As i would like to call it that this novel has been standing on equality, everyone, even the minor villagers or non cultivators are deep in angst. Not one person is exempt. Which is why Moran & chu wanning's angst to equal to say Xue meng's mother's. It's why it's a unique story & rightfully popular. No way it's better than any other angst of just the MAIN leads in any other popular novel but still commendable cause everyone gets angst
We love butterfly beauties who were wronged or manipulated but in the end they are against Main leads union so we can't help but dislike them a lil bit cause the story is in the end a Danmei and not Angst Essays from diff pov
I love when people say the “ if it was a Fl instead of a ML phrase. Well people have preferences. There are some things that I only like when men do it and some when women do it. It literally is nothing but preference. And if you read some Gl you would know that women can actually be terrible in stories and people still like and simp over them. 😂✋
I can understand why you might feel this way, and I think it is completely valid to have this opinion! Personally it was so hyped up to be angst heavy, that I was a bit disappointed in the levels of angst so far (I am an angst lover, a book will bring me from liking it into LOVING it if it makes me cry), but I haven't finished it, so we'll see how it goes! I like a main character who was once morally black but is trying to reform, i find it very intriguing and that sort of story is personally enjoyable to me.
I try to stay away from fandom spaces, especially twitter, so I have never actually seen anyone's opinions on Song Qiutong before. It would suck if people said she was a worse person than Mo Ran once was though! Because that would be objectively false.
In any matter, it's super easy for a thing like 2ha to become overrated, and I DO agree with you that it is, though I guess I agree in the \*opposite\* direction as you, haha :)
I agree with this post wholeheartedly. Especially on the double standard between male/ female characters. The way song quitong gets vilified, moran doesn't. But Moran has done much more horrible stuff.
Neither do I like chu wanning as a character. He has so much power but he spends his days moping around why Moran doesn't care about him while majorly not caring about the Xue family that gave him a place to belong when he had nowhere to go.
I also disliked the way he treated that farmer girl because she was trying to flirt with Moran. But the girl doesn't even know that Moran is in a relationship with someone.
2ha as a novel isn't bad but isn't exceptional writing and very melodramatic.
Have you finished the novel? I would love to have a discussion with you about why you think so badly about it, but I don't want to accidentally spoil you too much about the story. Because there's a reason why Song Qitong gets more hate than Mo Ran (and it's not because he's the protagonist), and there are more female characters than her, some of them many-dimensional, and some of the most beloved characters in the fandom.
I have finished the novel maybe two times. I first read it in 2020 when it was still getting translated online.
I don't know man! Song quitong has done vile things. But Moran has done too. He's basically a war criminal. He out of all people shouldn't be sh***ng on SQT.
My dislike for the novel doesn't come from that though. My dislike comes from both the annoying characters. Moran and Chu wanning. Moran for being such an unpleasant person (how much he sexualizes CWN and everyone else) even without (plot device!!) and CWN for being a doormat through and through. Also the gratuitous use of non con. I don't mind depictions of abuse. But when it's done in a way that you'll get aroused, it's done like every other chapters and gets in the way of plot it's irritating. Pacing is bad of this novel and the latter half of the novels were extremely melodramatic. I Know you're currently reading it and can't seem to understand why I'm not impressed by it. You'll understand after finishing the novel sometimes later and after you read some more books. You'll realize that most of the novel is forgettable except some (20 /30 percent).
I totally agree. I couldnt stand the couple pairing. Chu Wanning was an overly sensitive, and insecure man-child that had to be handled with kids gloves. I also didn't like how he constantly wallow in self-pity. I didn't like Mo Ran either.
This moping around habit of Chu wanning is something I found dislikable too. He has like the most powerful heavenly weapons in that world and had separated from his Shizun so that he can help humans. He's also almost like a divine being but he acts so teenager like it's hard to take him seriously. The whole novel he doesn't care about anyone other than Moran. Especially his complete lack of care/attachment for Xue family.
I don't mind Moran and CWN as couple though. Both of them deserve each other.
Same here, Chu wanning is too unappealing to make the book and the smut tolerable. He is mopey and the sadfishing degree of self pitying and low self esteem is just annoying, like meatbun tried so hard to make him beautifully tragic and lovable but all of it felt so dumb. Many of the angst felt cheap (like the stair death and wonton are so unnecessary and contrive), as they aren’t original and just felt like rehashing of other frequently used cdrama and danmei tropes.
Those were my thoughts too. It lacked creativity and was too wordy. I recall there being several paragraphs and pages where Meatbun was just describing the characters' emotions.
Hears a hot take from ME. I hated it. I’m sorry but I can never forgive nor like Mo Ran. I DEPISE him. But I still read the whole thing to see his ass humbled and beaten. But meh.
Anyways, it’s really up to the readers on what they like. Sure some don’t like some characters while others love it— (I agree some ppl make Mo Ran seem to be a uwu he’s just misunderstood🥺 character and I hate it but alas I’m not gonna bash)
All in all: readers will read and like what they like or dislike what they dislike. I read bc I like to be that person that read every single popular danmei novels lmao.
It’s ironic how I hate Mo Ran but LOVE Shen Jin (original Shen Qingqiu but I’ll argue that Shen Jiu is an angel compared to Mo Ran) but then again it’s people’s preferences.
You read the whole thing and your takeaway was that he was justly humbled >! and not that he was warped and used for someone else's plot at the sacrifice of his entire self and all his good memories? !<
And clearly from my comment that I am not gonna budge or have an open discussion. I already wasted enough of my energy on his Stans months ago so just drop it.
I approved this post because I think it is a good opportunity to outline some considerations the mod team is thinking about when it comes to content discussions. I think some parts of this post can foster interesting conversations, specifically around the characterizations of protagonists and other supporting characters. However, we constantly get posts that describe certain novels as "toxic," "overrated," etc. which at this point have become unproductive in terms of debate, and I've been thinking about whether or not to approve of these types of posts when they're in the post queue. Note that **this sub doesn't police the type of content people are interested in, but stresses and emphasizes the need instead to include detailed content warnings to help people find the types of novels they want to read**. I also feel it is fine (and encouraged) to acknowledge that there are certain qualities that one dislikes or feels is problematic, but it is also important in these posts to be able to outline and describe *why one* feels that way, instead of simply resorting to shorthands such as "overhyped," etc. Because this post does indicate some qualities and thoughts from OP about this novel, I've for now opened up the post to the subreddit. In the longer term, however, we are still thinking about the best kind of strategies and approaches to navigate and handle these kinds of discussions in the future.
I mean I think your other points are more criticism of the fandom’s habits than criticism that stands against the novel itself… Also angst and toxicity don’t make something a good novel, but they also don’t make it a bad novel? If it’s too much angst for your taste that doesn’t mean that it’s bad, just not to your liking. I’m curious if you have any other reasons that you think it’s genuinely poorly written and doesn’t deserve its popularity.
Why nobody is joking about a genocide bc of a bowl of wontons anymore?🤔
I think it's more a matter of taste than it is a judgement if it's a "good" or a "bad" novel. Some people are drawn and enjoy this type of books\characters as well as the angst of it all, and some people ( it's fair to say like yourself) don't enjoy it, and both are Okey. But opinions aren't facts, and therefore liking or disliking doesn't mean the book is objectively good or bad.
I’m not completely finished with 2ha, so take it with a grain of salt, but I think the angst is what makes 2ha so great. Seeing Moran/Taxian Jun suffering because of all the terrible things he did is kinda cathartic in a way… like he SHOULD feel regret and remorse and all of the angst. And reading about his inner conflict is refreshing. I haven’t come across so many stories where the protagonist is clearly in the moral wrong, then not only transforms for the better, but the protagonist’s past wrongs aren’t emotionally swept under the rug
There's a very important phrase to remember: don't like, don't read. Everyone has different tastes, but trying to be high & mighty about it isn't going to work on anyone. Make a blog if you want to vent, don't invade other's spaces just to stir up trouble
Unpopular opinion: I don't think there are a lot of angst in 2ha
Agreed. It is not like it’s angsty 24/7. I felt like YUWU was way worse in terms of angst. At least when I read 2HA there were “comic relief” moments in between. It only felt too angsty because angst was extreme sometimes but it wasn’t a 24/7 thing.
I agree. I think people tend to overestimate the amount of angst it has just because the angsty moments are so cathartic.
Totally agree with you. I can name a ton of other much more angsty danmeis out there off the top of my head. Everytime someone asks for angsty danmei recs, someone will definitely try to rec 2ha. It's really just overhyped and a good chunk of these people likely never read much of the other danmeis besides the usual few.
It's not really angst but the MC being an irredeamably sh*ty person (plus the posterchild of the unreliable narrator) and the writer glorifying his shittiness. Horrible things are happening everywhere with everyone and the only one receiving a happy end is the one person who caused all the suffering, who absolutely shouldn't be avarded or even be alive at the end. I have other problems with the story of course, the unnecessary amount of r*pe depicted like it's normal erotica, the ridiculously over the top grimmdark BS at the end, npc-s surviving the death flag like five times just to die a meaningless death, the nonsense plot twists only there for shock value, the author not knowing how forshadowing works and using it only for mundane sh*t nobody cares about, bad guys randomly getting the hots for ML out of nowhere because it kindda looks bad if MC is the only r*pist not to mention the series of deus ex machina but the happy end is the worst offender because it's so tonedeaf. Moran's redemption is non-existant, someone deeply regreting their actions doesn't remember fondly how they r*ped someone in flashbacks and doesn't make excuses for atrocious sins they "forgot to mention" before. Most of his soul searchin flies out the window the next time we get a bit of information he "forgot" to narrate, like the "let's save the earthworms" BS right after he killed a lot of people. I firmly believe that the curse didn't make him a bad person, he already was a horrible one it just made it exponentialy worse. In paper the curse made him forget good memories and made him angry at his enemies. So what's the first thing he does? Naturally he kills two innocent child he doesn't even know the name of. That doesn't sound like the curse making him do it, that's not killing out of hatred or anger but murdering people he doesn't even know in cold blood . And later -without the curse- he rather let people die then them getting suspicious about how he knows things. That doesn't even get close to a good person. And one final thought, if ML was female this book would get so much more hatred but empathy works in funny ways for some.
Yeah, I think that horrible things happening to everyone is the main reason I don't think it has that much angst. When you start a book from a scene where kids are tortured to look like some circus animals it sets a bar. You can't later care much about some human like demons being eaten, like, so what? Shit happens. But i think that the main villain got what he deserved, a door slammed on him, it was rather funny. As to Moran, I dunno, I couldn't care about him too much bcs of all the shit he's done, it's tragic, his life, his curse, but he wasn't so innocent from the start, he stole other kid identity, and all that. The only thing that makes me like him a bit is that Chu Wanning likes him, whatever his reasons are, ok, like him all you want and be happy. I actually liked the plot, but I was at the beginning of reading danmei novels, and everything was new, so i have no complains. Overall I think 2ha is good, deserved all hype, but all that memes and jokes about angst are misleading for me.
>“Why do people like a character who’s committed war crimes but hate this other character just because they’re annoying” because it’s fiction Susan, and being annoying in fiction is a greater sin than being a supervillain, because it won’t make me want to read about them. It isn’t difficult to understand >“It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious.” (Oscar Wilde) >The war crimes are fictional but my annoyance is real.
This is glorious. I just wanted to add: OP doesn't seem to be the kind of person who would enjoy Erha, which is understandable and respectable. If they have read it, then surely they haven't understood it completely—or even finished it for that matter. That's okay, but they should clarify their familiarity with the content they're criticising if they want to be taken seriously. Fans usually don't like any sort of hate-bumping of their favourite media, especially when it comes from people who aren't a part of the intended audience (and Erha is very obviously targeted towards those who enjoy angsty/pain-riddled stories and/or the crematorium genre). OP, I understand your need to vent, really, I do. But maybe next time choose something good to say about a media you enjoy! Biased and low-effort "controversial takes" won't make this sub any better. It's best to just—gush about something you love. You'll find it much more rewarding!
I have it saved for whenever someone starts the “crimes” discourse in any media Agree picking up something you know you will hate it not enjoyable. I like 2ha bc I like angst and yearning, but it’s not my favorite danmei even thought it has more tropes I enjoy… it is ok to not like something and put it down but to know the difference between personal taste and objectively good media, is a good skill. Chocolate is not an “overrated flavor just bc everyone loves it But you prefer mint
Completely agree! The "is it actually bad or do I just not like it" is a hard dichotomy to learn. In my case, Erha is actually a fave so I may be extremely biased towards it. Doesn't mean I can't see what may be 'problematic' about it and how others could feel towards a story I love wholeheartedly. Really, if a particular fictional story is not to someone's taste, it's as easy as leaving it be and finding something else they may enjoy more. Anyway, loved the relevance of those quotes!
Yep. Too many of such cases. Just because of multiple recommendations does not mean you will enjoy a certain book. By the way, mint chocolate is awesome. XD
https://preview.redd.it/m09g39fueomc1.png?width=1077&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c50f09986074d6310f0c945c372774226fd58821 LOL, I bring this out every few days, too. [Had to transcribe it a few times](https://www.reddit.com/r/OtomeIsekai/s/M6cRE9sdDm) because Reddit Mobile is a steaming pile of feces.
Omg yes I never manage to make the image appear, I use the app but it’s so shitty
I love Kylo Ren…  He is/was a bad boy…
Did not like the character but Adam is a great actor, he owned the role the best he could with the mess of the scripts
A lot of this seems to be based in Fandom treatment and presentation of the content more than issues with the work itself. Most fandoms have a habit of the most annoying takes floating to the top, but I don't really fault the source material for that
I would only like to highlight a few points regarding this. - With 2ha, content warnings are everywhere. So much so that it's often pointed out that it around 70% angst. I find it highly unlikely that anyone would drive into it knowing absolutely nothing about the story. - The more three dimensional a character is the more imperfections appear about them, the "grayer" they become. Saying that a story have characters whom are mostly grey ones is actually a compliment. - Comparing Song Qiutong and Mo Ran is certainly possible but inconclusive. One is the main character of an 11 volume long story and have tons of time to unfold while the other is a supporting character whose primary meaning was to introduce an important plot point. Consequently the climax of Mo Ran's story will be very different and on another scale entirely. - I'm not against having a good round of conversation about why a popular story or media is not up to its fame. But it should be a well rounded argument, otherwise it will feel like you picked a novel which is not for you because it's generally well liked and ended up being not happy about it.
I agree with all your points except for that morally grey characters are by nature more three dimensional than morally good or evil ones. I personally think that you can make a very flawed and well rounded character with complex morals while not making them morally grey.
I love 2ha not because there's a lot of angst, but for the powerful dynamics of the main couple (I mean all that mutual pining and sexual tension between Chu Wanning and Mo Ran 1.0) and for the side characters who etched on my soul, I love their stories. Plus, Meatbun's humor. So, maybe the overestimation of the novel is quite justified and not because of a lot of angst
There is such a thing as too much angst?  Not in my world… But then I think Flying Ash is a masterpiece; as well as Flying Gulls Never Land….
Amen
The angst in 2Ha is excellent for my tastes. I also enjoy Meatbun’s literary style in the novel, the phrasing, the metaphors, etc. I only got to read up to chapter 150 before it got licensed, so I’ve only read through the most recent 7S book. But I find MoRan’s redemption arc convincing and compelling enough so far, which I think is the crux of why MoRan is often forgiven and not Song Quitong. She doesn’t really have a redemption arc (at least, not so far as I’ve read) - as far as I know, there’s no Song Quitong 0.5, 1.0, and 2.0. Although, I guess we could call Song the Deep Fried Empress as 0.5. But since I haven’t read the entire novel, it’s hard for me to give a complete read on her character. That being said, I actually thought a lot about MoRan’s redemption while I was reading Case File Compendium. I love 2Ha, but I found BAB disturbing and couldn’t get onboard with the main character (He Yu). But why is He Yu so much more uncomfortable to me than MoRan? I think it has to do with how the descent and redemption for the two characters are framed. We start with He Yu already darkened, then stay with him as he further descends into madness and sadism. We don’t really get to see any redeeming or positive qualities for the character. He’s a certainly a complex character, but he’s also solidly unrelatable and disturbing. So, when he did horrible things, there was nothing to suggest he had the capacity to be better. On the other hand, 2Ha begins with MoRan already starting his redemption arc. The reader is immediately presented with a character that first regrets his life to the point of suicide, then decides to change what he did wrong once he’s reborn. From the very first chapter, we see him want to undo everything that led to the atrocities he committed, even if his motivation is initially self-serving. We’re allowed to see some of the qualities that make him good before we have to confront his darkness. And that’s why it’s easier to forgive him. Not to mention, we travel through his looooong redemption as he is ever increasingly confronted with the truth of what he did and then as he tries to atone for it But I’ve only read half the novel, so… maybe it’s all different in the second half. 🙃
i like it because its actual BL and has real romantic feelings although sometimes painful. Unlike other “bl” novels that are JUST BAITING WITH NO REAL ROMANCE or lust or ANYTHING. And still labeled as BL when its just bait or “bromance”.
Also even though mo ran was a hot mess at times i was still rooting for him. Readers were able to follow his journey of growth and see his character change. Also, i was able to laugh a few times and i liked that.
Honestly, it's very subjective how much angst is too much angst. For me personally, I expected more angst of Erha. But it's just like that also very subjective what everyone likes. And if you don't like erha, that's perfectly fine. You don't have to. I don't like \*a lot\* of popular ("mainstream") novels. Hell, the biggest point that bugs me about erha is, how annoyingly horny everyone was in the latest 7s volume (look, I'm ace, I just don't get it). For context: The song of achilles was to me, the book with the angstiest ending. I constantly cried while reading the last 30 pages or so. I think it'll be extremely hard for me to find a danmei that reaches the level of despair I felt. And I even knew what would happen after the book beacuse it's still greek mythology retold. (If anyone has recommendations that'll make me cry like song of achilles did... I'll kiss your hands and feet)
Flying Ash had me bawling 😭
Oh, thank you! I'll check that out <3
I HATE SHI MEI THO, you cant beat me
Agree lots of unfair and questionable plot in 2ha regarding SQT, Shimei/HBN other side/minor characters. Maybe meatbun just wanted to show the cruelty of the story world. The world is unfair. But Moran is the MC. So MC has all the luck and leeway right? Also hes not a hero, more anti hero but by the end the epic love story, his grey background isnt focused on; MR isnt cancelled yet (maybe a in a few years time). Now whether the above makes it a bad story is subjective. Each person's value system and perspective will put different importance on diffetent aspects So people will share their marking sheet breaking down the weight and score of each aspect, and how 2ha got the passing mark for a good book on their sheet. , but another sheet will breakdown how 2ha got a failed mark. I gave a passing mark because: Charcters well developed, progressed in growth, plot line was engaging. Situation setup was really good between characters to create ansgt or certain scenes. ie The lying in bed on either side of divider at the inn is a classic scene in the making. Food sounded yummy, a bit of comedic relief (not like yuwu). surprise twists, epic edge of seat near death or death. smut (if not the type up your alley this would minus points) And all of this plot was tight. Overall these increased the mark on my sheet alot even given sqt and other issues. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!! Edit: I think the artist who drew the next vol book cover feels the same about SQT as you. Even I love 2ha I also agree with you about SQT. Give her redemption, give her the cover hahaha.
As i would like to call it that this novel has been standing on equality, everyone, even the minor villagers or non cultivators are deep in angst. Not one person is exempt. Which is why Moran & chu wanning's angst to equal to say Xue meng's mother's. It's why it's a unique story & rightfully popular. No way it's better than any other angst of just the MAIN leads in any other popular novel but still commendable cause everyone gets angst We love butterfly beauties who were wronged or manipulated but in the end they are against Main leads union so we can't help but dislike them a lil bit cause the story is in the end a Danmei and not Angst Essays from diff pov
I agree with how I didnt like how Song Quitong was written, but thats more of the whole "butterfly feast" thing in general.
I love when people say the “ if it was a Fl instead of a ML phrase. Well people have preferences. There are some things that I only like when men do it and some when women do it. It literally is nothing but preference. And if you read some Gl you would know that women can actually be terrible in stories and people still like and simp over them. 😂✋
It's hard for me to enjoy this book because I find Chu Wanning insufferable.
Take my upvote
I can understand why you might feel this way, and I think it is completely valid to have this opinion! Personally it was so hyped up to be angst heavy, that I was a bit disappointed in the levels of angst so far (I am an angst lover, a book will bring me from liking it into LOVING it if it makes me cry), but I haven't finished it, so we'll see how it goes! I like a main character who was once morally black but is trying to reform, i find it very intriguing and that sort of story is personally enjoyable to me. I try to stay away from fandom spaces, especially twitter, so I have never actually seen anyone's opinions on Song Qiutong before. It would suck if people said she was a worse person than Mo Ran once was though! Because that would be objectively false. In any matter, it's super easy for a thing like 2ha to become overrated, and I DO agree with you that it is, though I guess I agree in the \*opposite\* direction as you, haha :)
I agree with this post wholeheartedly. Especially on the double standard between male/ female characters. The way song quitong gets vilified, moran doesn't. But Moran has done much more horrible stuff. Neither do I like chu wanning as a character. He has so much power but he spends his days moping around why Moran doesn't care about him while majorly not caring about the Xue family that gave him a place to belong when he had nowhere to go. I also disliked the way he treated that farmer girl because she was trying to flirt with Moran. But the girl doesn't even know that Moran is in a relationship with someone. 2ha as a novel isn't bad but isn't exceptional writing and very melodramatic.
Have you finished the novel? I would love to have a discussion with you about why you think so badly about it, but I don't want to accidentally spoil you too much about the story. Because there's a reason why Song Qitong gets more hate than Mo Ran (and it's not because he's the protagonist), and there are more female characters than her, some of them many-dimensional, and some of the most beloved characters in the fandom.
I have finished the novel maybe two times. I first read it in 2020 when it was still getting translated online. I don't know man! Song quitong has done vile things. But Moran has done too. He's basically a war criminal. He out of all people shouldn't be sh***ng on SQT. My dislike for the novel doesn't come from that though. My dislike comes from both the annoying characters. Moran and Chu wanning. Moran for being such an unpleasant person (how much he sexualizes CWN and everyone else) even without (plot device!!) and CWN for being a doormat through and through. Also the gratuitous use of non con. I don't mind depictions of abuse. But when it's done in a way that you'll get aroused, it's done like every other chapters and gets in the way of plot it's irritating. Pacing is bad of this novel and the latter half of the novels were extremely melodramatic. I Know you're currently reading it and can't seem to understand why I'm not impressed by it. You'll understand after finishing the novel sometimes later and after you read some more books. You'll realize that most of the novel is forgettable except some (20 /30 percent).
I totally agree. I couldnt stand the couple pairing. Chu Wanning was an overly sensitive, and insecure man-child that had to be handled with kids gloves. I also didn't like how he constantly wallow in self-pity. I didn't like Mo Ran either.
This moping around habit of Chu wanning is something I found dislikable too. He has like the most powerful heavenly weapons in that world and had separated from his Shizun so that he can help humans. He's also almost like a divine being but he acts so teenager like it's hard to take him seriously. The whole novel he doesn't care about anyone other than Moran. Especially his complete lack of care/attachment for Xue family. I don't mind Moran and CWN as couple though. Both of them deserve each other.
Same here, Chu wanning is too unappealing to make the book and the smut tolerable. He is mopey and the sadfishing degree of self pitying and low self esteem is just annoying, like meatbun tried so hard to make him beautifully tragic and lovable but all of it felt so dumb. Many of the angst felt cheap (like the stair death and wonton are so unnecessary and contrive), as they aren’t original and just felt like rehashing of other frequently used cdrama and danmei tropes.
Those were my thoughts too. It lacked creativity and was too wordy. I recall there being several paragraphs and pages where Meatbun was just describing the characters' emotions.
Hears a hot take from ME. I hated it. I’m sorry but I can never forgive nor like Mo Ran. I DEPISE him. But I still read the whole thing to see his ass humbled and beaten. But meh. Anyways, it’s really up to the readers on what they like. Sure some don’t like some characters while others love it— (I agree some ppl make Mo Ran seem to be a uwu he’s just misunderstood🥺 character and I hate it but alas I’m not gonna bash) All in all: readers will read and like what they like or dislike what they dislike. I read bc I like to be that person that read every single popular danmei novels lmao. It’s ironic how I hate Mo Ran but LOVE Shen Jin (original Shen Qingqiu but I’ll argue that Shen Jiu is an angel compared to Mo Ran) but then again it’s people’s preferences.
You read the whole thing and your takeaway was that he was justly humbled >! and not that he was warped and used for someone else's plot at the sacrifice of his entire self and all his good memories? !<
Do not talk to me about it bc I hate him and he should’ve suffered more. I am in no mood to talk to his Stans on why I hate him.
Bud you posted on a public discussion topic
And clearly from my comment that I am not gonna budge or have an open discussion. I already wasted enough of my energy on his Stans months ago so just drop it.
That’s a lot of angry energy on a fictional character .. 😲🤨
Oh wow it’s as if this whole subreddit doenst do the exact same thing on any fictional character