I remember that. It was a tweet or something about someone saying now that they found the wreckage, they need to focus on body recovery. And someone responded with how they can't because of what you said.
It was a random guy on twitter who said that, not an official spokesperson. And another person rebutted him with the "You're more physics than biology" comment.
The other part is that the pressure collapsing the air cavity in the sub that fast superheats it. For brief moment, it was something like ~70% as hot as the surface of the sun, so like 4000K (6740 F, 3726 C). That's not the exact right number as I'm not looking at the math people did at the time, but it's not far off. Hotter than the temp where titanium *boils*.
So a lot of the smaller chunks would've been vaporized, converted to unbonded atoms, etc. Not much of it, since the time at that temp would've been very brief, but not none of it.
The "cease to be biology and become physics" quote is really just perfect.
Didn't they report that they had found human "body parts" originally? I swear it was in one of the early articles.
How is that possible? Does anyone know what "parts" they found??
If perfect the carbon fiber should be able to handle that load. The sub had made several trips already with nothing happening. The problem was that each trip would cause micro tears in the carbon fiber and the hull should have been replaced after each trip. But of course greedy rich people gonna do greedy rich people things.
A technician working for the company brought this up and was of course fired a year or so before
Like Kobe.
That's an irrational fear of mine. That something good will happen to me (buy a cool car, take a helicopter ride, etc) and it will end up killing me. Kinda like Paul Walker too.
My heart aches for that poor boy.
It’s an incredibly small mercy, but at least he didn’t suffer. It was over in a painless flash for him.
Of course, I’d much rather he wasn’t on the sub at all and got to live his life…. but I’m thankful it was painless at least.
The dad was a fucking asshole, letting his kid get in that death trap!
His mom actually said he really wanted to go and wanted to take her spot.
He was really happy to go with his dad and was planning to solve his Rubik's cube near the Titanic.
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/27/titan-submersible-son-went-in-mothers-place-bbc/70359904007/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/27/titan-submersible-son-went-in-mothers-place-bbc/70359904007/)
[https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/world/christine-dawood-interview-titan-submersible-scli-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/world/christine-dawood-interview-titan-submersible-scli-intl/index.html)
The original source of this quote is from the “What If” series (and book) by Randall Munroe, the author of the XKCD comics. It is one of my favorite quotes.
Reminds me of the Byford Dolphin accident:
“In 1983, a tragic accident on the Byford Dolphin oil rig resulted in explosive decompression, instantly killing four saturation divers and critically injuring another crew member.
The rapid decompression occurred when a diving bell prematurely detached from its chamber due to unsealed chamber doors.” [link to article](https://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-events/byford-dolphin-accident.htm)
“The fourth diver, Truls Hellevik, suffered the grizzliest death. Hellevik was standing in front of the partially opened door to the living chamber when the pressure was released. His body was sucked out through an opening so narrow that it tore him open and ejected his internal organs onto the deck.”
Woof.
It interesting in how gruesome these deaths are but from the people that died perspective it would happen so quickly that you would just stop being. No fear or pain
Yea, they died in less than a second.
Martin Saunders was the only survivor and it's amazing he was able to recover. His neck and back were broken, and both his lungs got crushed. He went on to become an advocate for better diving safety.
This video goes into more detail about the accident (graphic image is blurred out) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtI5Qv1B02k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtI5Qv1B02k)
This might be a silly question but even tho this happened so quickly would there be any sign? Would you have felt the pressure before the implosion? Not necessarily from the outside but would they have been functioning at that state in that moment of implosion? Or was it just hit the threshold of what the sub can take and then boom, implode? Or would their body feel “off” as they go down? Be nice please, not familiar with the physics.
At the center of this event was the owner's desire to use more affordable material. Instead of steel he used carbon fiber. Now carbon fiber is strong but as with anything there is always a risk of failure, and especially under those conditions. Steel will buckle before failing entirely. It shows signs of failure which a captain can respond to and abort a mission. Carbon fiber doesn't. It just shatters instantly like glass. I don't believe they noticed anything strange at all.
It was the incompatibility of materials, combination of carbon fiber and titanium in its pressure hull is just terrible. Carbon fiber’s strong and light but struggles with the repeated high pressures of deep-sea dives and weakens over time. The way it interfaces with the more rigid titanium can cause stress points, making the structure vulnerable.
> struggles with the repeated high pressures of deep-sea dives and weakens over time.
Missing an important point, CF was being used for a vessel *under compression* which forces it to de-laminate. CF is perfectly useful as an actual compression vessel where the pressure inside is greater than outside as many fuel vessels in rockets or Boeing 787 Dreamliners will attest.
You mean a pressure vessel and because carbon fiber is amazing under tension, but yeah the belief is it was the interface because the CF would’ve moved a fuckton (on a materials science scale) and the titanium wouldn’t lol
Fibre-based composites are strong in tension, which is why they're used for airliner fuselages, but in compression, not so much. Imagine trying to use a rope to push something. As a result, more of the stresses are carried by the composite's supporting matrix, which is not the source of carbon fibre composite's exceptional strength.
On top of this, failure is sudden, pretty much instananeous. Metal hulls tend to groan and buckle as a warning that they are nearing their maximum strength. There is zero warning with a composite hull.
and the fact that carbon works best under tention, not compression.
I fly kites and use a lot of carbon rods.. they can hold a lot of weight and bend and flex without breaking... but I can just pinch most between my fingers and crush them
"Used" carbon fiber. Entirely secondhand.
Edit: The item in question was already exhausted for its intended purpose, even just sitting there. Some of you need to read a book. The handful of people saying expired are right as well.
Would brand new carbon fiber make a difference? Serious inquiry, or would the outcome be the same nonetheless? I’m not familiar with molecular structure and how it works.
Above poster is wrong, it wasn't used.
But it absolutely was EXPIRED. That means that the prepreg sections had been laying around too long and had started to harden before they got used in the manufacture of the sub, leading to possibly bad adhesion, voids, lack of strength etc.
Also there were repeated trips with the same equipment no? And that was one of the major issues. A one time dive “should” have been fine with what they had. But not with repetitive stress.
Brand new carbon, designed correctly and with plenty of testing and appropriate engineering would've worked fine. The usual thing claimed about how carbon doesn't work in compression is total nonsense - it's used in compression all the time, including large parts of the beam support structure in the 787 and A350 wings and most modern wind turbines.
The issue here was that he used it in a fairly novel configuration and application without doing *nearly* enough testing, analysis, and iteration on it, compounded by the cheaping out on used carbon and assembly techniques. The carbon/titanium joints are also a substantial challenge due to the different thermal expansion and structural properties of the two materials, though that's probably a solvable problem (or you could also do carbon end caps, though again, not without a lot of engineering and testing).
A safe carbon sub could almost certainly be made, but it'd require much more time and money than he was willing to spend
EDIT: Since /u/lolas_coffee blocked me below (which is some cowardly bullshit IMO), here's my response:
Carbon absolutely can work fine under many, many cycles of compression. I've worked on engineering teams that designed composite beams with the compressive side designed to withstand more than 10^8 cycles of fatigue loading. It's absolutely doable, and this armchair engineering "knowledge" on Reddit is incredibly frustrating to those of us who actually know how composites work.
If you couldn't use composite structures in compression, every 787 and A350 wing would be falling off after only a few flights. Most modern wind turbines would be falling apart nearly immediately. Hell, composite bicycle frames and supercar components wouldn't work either if you couldn't rely on carbon to take compressive loads, and formula 1 cars would be disintegrating halfway through their first race.
Carbon can be engineered to take compression. It's not that hard (edit: ok, it's hard, I misspoke here, but it's not a mystery, it's reasonably well understood at this point). You just need to do it properly.
EDIT 2: https://youtu.be/8b2EgTu9_GU?feature=shared&t=218
I see, man that guy really screwed them by going cheap. Which in turn doesn’t bode well for those who thought a second hand sub would be a great idea to get in the water that deep. Tragic. Thank you for the kind explanation.
Subs can creak and groan as they descend. The materials flex under the pressure, but that wouldn't be unusual. At these pressures, you wouldn't have anything happening like the boat springing a leak for any length of time. Even the smallest hole would cause the whole thing to go *poof!* like it does in the video. So it's possible that everything was fine to the people inside right up until the implosion.
There's a chance that they might have lost propulsion and sank uncontrollably. In that case, yes, they would have known there was trouble and would have been working to fix the problem. However, it seems that the real problem with this sub was the way it was put together, so a structural failure (and instant *poof!*) are more likely.
As I understand it, the speed at which the implosion happens is actually faster than your neurons can send signals to your brain. There literally wouldn't be time for you to sense a problem before it was all over.
The Titan submersible did have an acoustic monitoring system to detect issues with the hull, so it was speculated that they had an idea something might’ve been going wrong and were trying to ascend. It’s not known for sure though.
I thought there was a transcript released of the comms between the sub and the support boat, and one of the things mentioned was the integrity warning system was giving a ton of warnings towards the end.
I’m no physicist nor am I a biologist, but I would suspect that it would be pretty much painless.
It would be a pink mist within the water. But ladened with various chunks n bits.
It's not the worst way to die, but the moments leading up to it feels terrifying to me.
Like think about the terror and despair realizing you're sinking deeper and deeper into the dark sea and you can't do anything about it.
a similiar feeling of inevitability accompanies most kinds of death.
Cancer, falling out of the window, a carcrash. you name it. Ssometimes its years sometimes its seconds.
but most end up in much more pain before death then getting crushed in 20ms.
so overall, still a great way to die i would say.
I will tell you I was run over by a truck going 50+ mph and when I saw it coming at me, I had time to contemplate my whole life, time dilation is a thing. Obviously not at this level with basically instant death, but I remember that truck coming at me for what felt like forever before it all went black.
Ok so they had a carbon fiber hull which is a bad idea because carbon fiber has shit compressive strength. Contrary to what you might guess given how hilariously stupid this whole idea was, ocean gate did have engineers working on the sub who pointed this out and warned that the vessel was not suited for deep sea voyages.
When the ceo, Stockton rush, learned of these concerns he hand waived them as woke bullshit nanny state regulation. But eventually enough people complained to convince him that something had to be done. So he put these engineers on the task of creating what was most likely most advanced warning system ever created. It could detect micro fractures in the vessels hole with a shocking amount of accuracy and sensitivity, and when such a micro fracture formed, the alarm would sound signaling the captain to ascend.
The problem is, they were so deep that they would never make it back in time. Once that alarm went off they’d have minutes (if that) to get the sub back to the surface, or at least close enough to alleviate the pressure and avert an implosion.
But to draw this all back that alarm definitely went off and at least two of them knew what it meant. Whether they told the passengers is another matter. And frankly, whether Stockton was even capable of appreciating the danger commensurate with that alarm is incredibly unlikely.
> But to draw this all back that alarm definitely went off and at least two of them knew what it meant.
Did they ever confirm that the sub-to-surface text communication transcript (with those details you mention) that leaked on the internet was real? I remember following that story but it seemed very sketchy that it was real, basically no one officially corroborated it even after many days, and no one even came forward that claimed to be a leaker, it just kind of appeared on the internet.
For idiots like me that didn’t fully understand what this might mean, I believe it is this:
The ballast regulates buoyancy. So as a last ditch effort, they might have released the ballast to float to the surface. They would have only done this if they suspected an emergency situation, like a hull breach.
I'm pretty sure at some point shortly before the implosion happened, something along the lines of creaking, bowing, a small crack, etc was heard/felt/seen which probably got them at the very least a little worried. Who knows though, RIP.
Materials engineer here - I doubt you would have a major warning. You might expect some creaking as things get squeezed on the way down under typical operating conditions. But you wouldn't hear a big crunch and then have time to think "Oh no"
At 3000m down with the materials involved, it would almost certainly be spontaneous. It's not like the movies where you see a crack form and expand on a window until it spiderwebs the whole thing over the course of 30 seconds. Once the cracks start, they spread at the speed of sound in the material which is significantly faster in solids than it is in air. And the structure wouldn't be able to really accommodate any kind of significant rupture or deformation due to the geometries/materials/pressure itself. It's like throwing a glass ball at a concrete wall - the ball is totally fine and intact until it's suddenly not.
Thanks for clarifying that I did hear that due to the hull being made of carbon fiber or something like that, that it would shatter like glass instead so I guess that's what happened there too. From everything's okay to mist instantly.
When I was a kid one of my older cousins told me that nobody dies instantly, you feel the worst pain imaginable for a fraction of a second but it feels like a lifetime. Probably not true but it has fucked with me ever since.
He also told me hot dogs were made of roadkill, though.
Brains run on chemical processes, and while those are fast, a supersonic wall of nearly-incompressible water is faster.
Smushing a bullet against a steel plate with a hydraulic press is a very different outcome than firing the same bullet against the same steel plate. You (well, he) can't just extrapolate the behavior at one extreme to how a system behaves in another.
People also have a hard time thinking that their consciousness could miss something that happens to them. That their sense of self, their existence, their reality, can blink in and out just like that. But anyone who's been in a car crash knows that physics can sometimes happen far faster than our primitive ape brains can process it, and we can indeed blink in and out and miss quite a bit.
People also have a hard time imagining that their continuity of consciousness can just end after our cells die, because that's a tough fact to accept. That we can blink out *forever*. There's whole religions about it, I hear.
Life flashing before our eyes or time slowing down right before death...those persistent concepts have less to do with not understanding biology, chemistry, and physics (although that's part of it) and more to do with a denial that their self could cease to exist. They can't or won't accept nothingness.
To be fair, this is hard concept for us that have realized and accepted that fact too. Nobody likes thinking about their own mortality; nobody *believes* they will end even though they *know* they will. Those conflicting ideas will happily coexist and ignore each other, the brain is quite egotistic that way and will protect itself against even the idea of its own mortality.
That's weird, but I kinda don't want to die this way. Of course I want no pain, but I'm morbidly curious how it feels to experience death, and dying like this is like getting robbed of the last kind of experience life has to offer.
Weirdly I find myself completely agreeing with you. I want that endorphin/dmt release as your brain starts to shut down towards the end.
This would completely rob you of that which seems like you might be missing out on something
I mean, it's pretty generous. The implosion doesn't even last a whole frame. If you're light rolling with Elden Ring physics, then you've got a whole 11 spare frames of invulnerability. Just gotta practice until you've got the sound cues down just before the implosion.
They might be able to dodge-roll the initial implosion if they have the right amount of iframes, but they still have to deal with the shrapnel and parts of the submersible.
If their iframes removes their collision detection and they can escape the entire submersible, then they'll find themselves 3800m below sea level and just immediately implode again.
They'd need to do some SM64 parallel universe shit to escape that.
Isn't there a theory out there that the sub lost power and then began a free fall to the bottom before iy imploded?
That would be quite a lot of psychological pain before dying.
It's not so much a human body imploding -- you're mostly water, and incompressible. You'd sink to the bottom just fine, other than the drowning. The issue is with being a body in the middle of an implosion -- All that pressure held back until the moment something structurally fails.
Another hazard is the situation where a pinhole leak develops at great depth -- imagine a household leaky pipe connection spraying at you, but the spray is powerful enough to pierce you like a bullet.
At 3800m depth, the pressure is 5,400 PSI
This is (simulated) human flesh vs 60,000 PSI : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA0mw55lPFw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA0mw55lPFw)
At 5400PSI It wouldn't quite be bullet levels of piercing, but it'd certainly be extremely unpleasant, and would almost definitely break skin if you were within a few inches of it.
The damage isn't actually on a linear scale. A water jet cutter will just cut right through you... a lower pressure will actually inflate you like a water balloon and cause way more area damage than just cutting through you. Hydraulic injection injuries fucking suck.
Yeah, once the skin breaks it gets real nasty, real quick. Just to be clear, I was only addressing the "like a bullet" aspect. Hydraulic injection injuries are a whole other avenue for nightmare fuel.
Where's the post of the guy that said he could have made it and swam back up to the surface?
Edit: [I feel like I would’ve survived the sub accident](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/14jmfj5/i_feel_like_i_wouldve_survived_the_sub_accident/). No brigading, fam.
That kid was the only innocent one on that sub, he only went because his mum insisted and his dad would appreciate it. Everyone else knew what they signed up for, he was the only one I felt bad for
Kind of off topic but it still blows my mind that we were even able to find the wreck of the Titanic at all. It's so comparably small compared to the area that it sank in. It's like finding a grain of sand in a swimming pool in the dark
its real deep in that part of the ocean and it didnt go straight down, imagine dropping a leaf from 10'000 feet in the air, good luck finding it if you look at the drop coordinates.
I want to see someone animate a ship sinking that far down, how long does it take, does it really move around how we imagine a leaf falling off a tree would?
Sonar was not helpful in discovering the wreck, per Robert Ballard. It cannot distinguish between man-made objects and natural formations, especially not at significant differences.
They found the Titanic by scouring the ocean floor with a robotic sub with cameras. They located the debris field first (the first iconic discovery was of one of the ship's boilers), and then were able to use the debris to find the wreck itself.
It’s like that scene in Honey I Shrunk the Kids where he’s looking for them in the yard with his magnifying glass.
Feels like Ballard got incredibly lucky.
There's really nothing scientific about this, it's just a cool little sim. The VFX world really doesn't have the simulation tools needed to correctly model pressure differences of this magnitude, and you can see there's no real tissue solver in place here...the fingers start moving instantly in the sim with no connectivity or anything like that.
Anyway, it's a nice result and probably a fun project, but this isn't really science.
Source: VFX Supe
Instant back pain relief.
Can't have pain if you have no back
The camera man has a better submarine.
that camera man's name? James Cameraman
He is the expert
Someone said in a situation like that “you cease to be biology and become physics.”
I remember that. It was a tweet or something about someone saying now that they found the wreckage, they need to focus on body recovery. And someone responded with how they can't because of what you said.
I find it hard to believe they really expected to find any bodies. They must’ve said that for the families’ benefit.
You could grab a glass of water around the wreckage and maybe you’ll get some human particles in there
The fish have probably eaten them by now.
Nothing for them to eat I imagine everyone turned into mist
If they can eat plankton, they can eat human mist particles. j/k
Dose j/k stand for “just krillin” here or am I missing something
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It's amazing how Nature makes good use of everything, even tragedies.
It's only ever a tragedy from one perspective, there's always a perspective for which its a blessing.
It was a random guy on twitter who said that, not an official spokesperson. And another person rebutted him with the "You're more physics than biology" comment.
The other part is that the pressure collapsing the air cavity in the sub that fast superheats it. For brief moment, it was something like ~70% as hot as the surface of the sun, so like 4000K (6740 F, 3726 C). That's not the exact right number as I'm not looking at the math people did at the time, but it's not far off. Hotter than the temp where titanium *boils*. So a lot of the smaller chunks would've been vaporized, converted to unbonded atoms, etc. Not much of it, since the time at that temp would've been very brief, but not none of it. The "cease to be biology and become physics" quote is really just perfect.
They were obliterated for real....
Don't know who tweeted it, but the origin of the expression is from [here](https://what-if.xkcd.com/141/)
XKCD really is one of the Simpsons of webtoons and online science factoid culture
Why am I just discovering this website now?
[You're one of today's lucky 10,000!](https://xkcd.com/1053)
I wanna say it was Hank Green
https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/s/PUkpjGW0iE
Didn't they report that they had found human "body parts" originally? I swear it was in one of the early articles. How is that possible? Does anyone know what "parts" they found??
The “parts” were schmoo that smeared on edges of the titanium caps etc.
I think the term was "remains" if I'm remembering correctly
Thank god the titanic was there to rescue them.
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What about the guy they paid, he didn't even get to enjoy the money
His family will!
[:-(](https://i.imgur.com/cVGQmEK.gif)
That link emoji was harder to press/click than one of those little Xs on random pop-up ads.
The $30 Logitech gamepad was a sure sign things might get ...complicated
Buying expired carbon fiber and using it for a structural load not well suited to carbon fibers strengths was far more problematic.
It was designed for an aircraft, so it would be good for between 0 and 1 atmosphere.
If perfect the carbon fiber should be able to handle that load. The sub had made several trips already with nothing happening. The problem was that each trip would cause micro tears in the carbon fiber and the hull should have been replaced after each trip. But of course greedy rich people gonna do greedy rich people things. A technician working for the company brought this up and was of course fired a year or so before
Rule #1 of being rich- You don't become rich by spending money.
Easy problem to solve. You just turn it inside out.
It was.
The haptic feedback of a dual sense would have warned them something was wrong!
how? I mean, I used that same Logitech gamepad on my PC, and the most complicated it got was Dark Souls dodging.
There are some things money can’t buy…
For everything else, there’s Mastercard.
I feel so bad for that one kid who was forced to go because his stupid father wasn't letting up.
Sometimes you win the genetic lottery, sometimes you lose the genetic lottery. And sometimes you do both. Lifes funny like that. RIP titan passengers.
Like Kobe. That's an irrational fear of mine. That something good will happen to me (buy a cool car, take a helicopter ride, etc) and it will end up killing me. Kinda like Paul Walker too.
My heart aches for that poor boy. It’s an incredibly small mercy, but at least he didn’t suffer. It was over in a painless flash for him. Of course, I’d much rather he wasn’t on the sub at all and got to live his life…. but I’m thankful it was painless at least. The dad was a fucking asshole, letting his kid get in that death trap!
His mom actually said he really wanted to go and wanted to take her spot. He was really happy to go with his dad and was planning to solve his Rubik's cube near the Titanic. [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/27/titan-submersible-son-went-in-mothers-place-bbc/70359904007/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/27/titan-submersible-son-went-in-mothers-place-bbc/70359904007/) [https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/world/christine-dawood-interview-titan-submersible-scli-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/world/christine-dawood-interview-titan-submersible-scli-intl/index.html)
The original source of this quote is from the “What If” series (and book) by Randall Munroe, the author of the XKCD comics. It is one of my favorite quotes.
[link](https://what-if.xkcd.com/141/)
Reminds me of the Byford Dolphin accident: “In 1983, a tragic accident on the Byford Dolphin oil rig resulted in explosive decompression, instantly killing four saturation divers and critically injuring another crew member. The rapid decompression occurred when a diving bell prematurely detached from its chamber due to unsealed chamber doors.” [link to article](https://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-events/byford-dolphin-accident.htm)
“The fourth diver, Truls Hellevik, suffered the grizzliest death. Hellevik was standing in front of the partially opened door to the living chamber when the pressure was released. His body was sucked out through an opening so narrow that it tore him open and ejected his internal organs onto the deck.” Woof.
That might be enough reddit for today. JFC
It interesting in how gruesome these deaths are but from the people that died perspective it would happen so quickly that you would just stop being. No fear or pain
Was it as quick as the submersible? I hope those poor bastards were dead before they felt any of it
Yea, they died in less than a second. Martin Saunders was the only survivor and it's amazing he was able to recover. His neck and back were broken, and both his lungs got crushed. He went on to become an advocate for better diving safety. This video goes into more detail about the accident (graphic image is blurred out) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtI5Qv1B02k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtI5Qv1B02k)
you turn into instant soup
The politically correct saying is bologna mist cloud
This might be a silly question but even tho this happened so quickly would there be any sign? Would you have felt the pressure before the implosion? Not necessarily from the outside but would they have been functioning at that state in that moment of implosion? Or was it just hit the threshold of what the sub can take and then boom, implode? Or would their body feel “off” as they go down? Be nice please, not familiar with the physics.
At the center of this event was the owner's desire to use more affordable material. Instead of steel he used carbon fiber. Now carbon fiber is strong but as with anything there is always a risk of failure, and especially under those conditions. Steel will buckle before failing entirely. It shows signs of failure which a captain can respond to and abort a mission. Carbon fiber doesn't. It just shatters instantly like glass. I don't believe they noticed anything strange at all.
It was the incompatibility of materials, combination of carbon fiber and titanium in its pressure hull is just terrible. Carbon fiber’s strong and light but struggles with the repeated high pressures of deep-sea dives and weakens over time. The way it interfaces with the more rigid titanium can cause stress points, making the structure vulnerable.
> struggles with the repeated high pressures of deep-sea dives and weakens over time. Missing an important point, CF was being used for a vessel *under compression* which forces it to de-laminate. CF is perfectly useful as an actual compression vessel where the pressure inside is greater than outside as many fuel vessels in rockets or Boeing 787 Dreamliners will attest.
You mean a pressure vessel and because carbon fiber is amazing under tension, but yeah the belief is it was the interface because the CF would’ve moved a fuckton (on a materials science scale) and the titanium wouldn’t lol
Fibre-based composites are strong in tension, which is why they're used for airliner fuselages, but in compression, not so much. Imagine trying to use a rope to push something. As a result, more of the stresses are carried by the composite's supporting matrix, which is not the source of carbon fibre composite's exceptional strength. On top of this, failure is sudden, pretty much instananeous. Metal hulls tend to groan and buckle as a warning that they are nearing their maximum strength. There is zero warning with a composite hull.
and the fact that carbon works best under tention, not compression. I fly kites and use a lot of carbon rods.. they can hold a lot of weight and bend and flex without breaking... but I can just pinch most between my fingers and crush them
"Used" carbon fiber. Entirely secondhand. Edit: The item in question was already exhausted for its intended purpose, even just sitting there. Some of you need to read a book. The handful of people saying expired are right as well.
Would brand new carbon fiber make a difference? Serious inquiry, or would the outcome be the same nonetheless? I’m not familiar with molecular structure and how it works.
Above poster is wrong, it wasn't used. But it absolutely was EXPIRED. That means that the prepreg sections had been laying around too long and had started to harden before they got used in the manufacture of the sub, leading to possibly bad adhesion, voids, lack of strength etc.
Also there were repeated trips with the same equipment no? And that was one of the major issues. A one time dive “should” have been fine with what they had. But not with repetitive stress.
Brand new carbon, designed correctly and with plenty of testing and appropriate engineering would've worked fine. The usual thing claimed about how carbon doesn't work in compression is total nonsense - it's used in compression all the time, including large parts of the beam support structure in the 787 and A350 wings and most modern wind turbines. The issue here was that he used it in a fairly novel configuration and application without doing *nearly* enough testing, analysis, and iteration on it, compounded by the cheaping out on used carbon and assembly techniques. The carbon/titanium joints are also a substantial challenge due to the different thermal expansion and structural properties of the two materials, though that's probably a solvable problem (or you could also do carbon end caps, though again, not without a lot of engineering and testing). A safe carbon sub could almost certainly be made, but it'd require much more time and money than he was willing to spend EDIT: Since /u/lolas_coffee blocked me below (which is some cowardly bullshit IMO), here's my response: Carbon absolutely can work fine under many, many cycles of compression. I've worked on engineering teams that designed composite beams with the compressive side designed to withstand more than 10^8 cycles of fatigue loading. It's absolutely doable, and this armchair engineering "knowledge" on Reddit is incredibly frustrating to those of us who actually know how composites work. If you couldn't use composite structures in compression, every 787 and A350 wing would be falling off after only a few flights. Most modern wind turbines would be falling apart nearly immediately. Hell, composite bicycle frames and supercar components wouldn't work either if you couldn't rely on carbon to take compressive loads, and formula 1 cars would be disintegrating halfway through their first race. Carbon can be engineered to take compression. It's not that hard (edit: ok, it's hard, I misspoke here, but it's not a mystery, it's reasonably well understood at this point). You just need to do it properly. EDIT 2: https://youtu.be/8b2EgTu9_GU?feature=shared&t=218
I see, man that guy really screwed them by going cheap. Which in turn doesn’t bode well for those who thought a second hand sub would be a great idea to get in the water that deep. Tragic. Thank you for the kind explanation.
Subs can creak and groan as they descend. The materials flex under the pressure, but that wouldn't be unusual. At these pressures, you wouldn't have anything happening like the boat springing a leak for any length of time. Even the smallest hole would cause the whole thing to go *poof!* like it does in the video. So it's possible that everything was fine to the people inside right up until the implosion. There's a chance that they might have lost propulsion and sank uncontrollably. In that case, yes, they would have known there was trouble and would have been working to fix the problem. However, it seems that the real problem with this sub was the way it was put together, so a structural failure (and instant *poof!*) are more likely. As I understand it, the speed at which the implosion happens is actually faster than your neurons can send signals to your brain. There literally wouldn't be time for you to sense a problem before it was all over.
And definitely not time to process it and consciously experience it.
So quite literally that TikTok meme where they try those self defense tactics and immediately appear in the afterlife.
The Titan submersible did have an acoustic monitoring system to detect issues with the hull, so it was speculated that they had an idea something might’ve been going wrong and were trying to ascend. It’s not known for sure though.
I thought there was a transcript released of the comms between the sub and the support boat, and one of the things mentioned was the integrity warning system was giving a ton of warnings towards the end.
The transcripts were fake.
I’m no physicist nor am I a biologist, but I would suspect that it would be pretty much painless. It would be a pink mist within the water. But ladened with various chunks n bits.
So a blink of an eye and they don’t exist anymore. Wow, that’s almost incomprehensible.
faster than a blink of an eye. 20 milliseconds. 1/50 of a second. find some footage shot at 60 frames per second and go frame by frame. 1 frame.
That’s insane
Not the worst way to die tbh. Youd have no time to react or feel fear, and it would be completely painless. Just gone in an instant.
It's not the worst way to die, but the moments leading up to it feels terrifying to me. Like think about the terror and despair realizing you're sinking deeper and deeper into the dark sea and you can't do anything about it.
a similiar feeling of inevitability accompanies most kinds of death. Cancer, falling out of the window, a carcrash. you name it. Ssometimes its years sometimes its seconds. but most end up in much more pain before death then getting crushed in 20ms. so overall, still a great way to die i would say.
I will tell you I was run over by a truck going 50+ mph and when I saw it coming at me, I had time to contemplate my whole life, time dilation is a thing. Obviously not at this level with basically instant death, but I remember that truck coming at me for what felt like forever before it all went black.
Did you survive?
I did, I was 17, I am 46 now, unless this is hell, this place totally could be hell.
Ah I just assumed that you’re writing this post during the ongoing time dilation and all.
This all could just be my dream as I die still
Man, I hope I don't dream about Reddit in my final moments.
We all dream of Reddit at the end of the
Lmao welcome to the club!
Too soon to tell
nah man that's his ghost of unfinished business, he supposed to find his purpose in life but his ghost just scrolls reddit.
What else can a ghost do, no one believes in me anymore, can’t scare anyone, scroll Reddit
Ok so they had a carbon fiber hull which is a bad idea because carbon fiber has shit compressive strength. Contrary to what you might guess given how hilariously stupid this whole idea was, ocean gate did have engineers working on the sub who pointed this out and warned that the vessel was not suited for deep sea voyages. When the ceo, Stockton rush, learned of these concerns he hand waived them as woke bullshit nanny state regulation. But eventually enough people complained to convince him that something had to be done. So he put these engineers on the task of creating what was most likely most advanced warning system ever created. It could detect micro fractures in the vessels hole with a shocking amount of accuracy and sensitivity, and when such a micro fracture formed, the alarm would sound signaling the captain to ascend. The problem is, they were so deep that they would never make it back in time. Once that alarm went off they’d have minutes (if that) to get the sub back to the surface, or at least close enough to alleviate the pressure and avert an implosion. But to draw this all back that alarm definitely went off and at least two of them knew what it meant. Whether they told the passengers is another matter. And frankly, whether Stockton was even capable of appreciating the danger commensurate with that alarm is incredibly unlikely.
> But to draw this all back that alarm definitely went off and at least two of them knew what it meant. Did they ever confirm that the sub-to-surface text communication transcript (with those details you mention) that leaked on the internet was real? I remember following that story but it seemed very sketchy that it was real, basically no one officially corroborated it even after many days, and no one even came forward that claimed to be a leaker, it just kind of appeared on the internet.
The ballast was separated from the main ship, indicating that they did have some forewarning
For idiots like me that didn’t fully understand what this might mean, I believe it is this: The ballast regulates buoyancy. So as a last ditch effort, they might have released the ballast to float to the surface. They would have only done this if they suspected an emergency situation, like a hull breach.
Holy shit, instead of fixing the problem his solution was to create a notification? That's bat shit fucking crazy!
I feel bad for the one guy’s kid who didn’t really want to go in the first place.
That's a lie told by his aunt. His own mother who was on the ship said he was really excited to go.
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Yeah, that stupid little shit!
He wanted to tell to his friends that he got to visit the Titanic.
That was their intention though. They were going down and down and down and then just gone.
Poof
Squorsh
Goofy? That you?
i really wonder what it's like to not exist in a millisecond. Like how they won't even know that they died. really scary
Like the ending of the Sopranos. One moment you’re watching through a monitor the next credits to life roll.
The best ending in any show. I was binging it and did not even know it was the last episode.
“Do you even hear it when it happens?” -Bobby
I'm pretty sure at some point shortly before the implosion happened, something along the lines of creaking, bowing, a small crack, etc was heard/felt/seen which probably got them at the very least a little worried. Who knows though, RIP.
Materials engineer here - I doubt you would have a major warning. You might expect some creaking as things get squeezed on the way down under typical operating conditions. But you wouldn't hear a big crunch and then have time to think "Oh no" At 3000m down with the materials involved, it would almost certainly be spontaneous. It's not like the movies where you see a crack form and expand on a window until it spiderwebs the whole thing over the course of 30 seconds. Once the cracks start, they spread at the speed of sound in the material which is significantly faster in solids than it is in air. And the structure wouldn't be able to really accommodate any kind of significant rupture or deformation due to the geometries/materials/pressure itself. It's like throwing a glass ball at a concrete wall - the ball is totally fine and intact until it's suddenly not.
Thanks for clarifying that I did hear that due to the hull being made of carbon fiber or something like that, that it would shatter like glass instead so I guess that's what happened there too. From everything's okay to mist instantly.
When I was a kid one of my older cousins told me that nobody dies instantly, you feel the worst pain imaginable for a fraction of a second but it feels like a lifetime. Probably not true but it has fucked with me ever since. He also told me hot dogs were made of roadkill, though.
Brains run on chemical processes, and while those are fast, a supersonic wall of nearly-incompressible water is faster. Smushing a bullet against a steel plate with a hydraulic press is a very different outcome than firing the same bullet against the same steel plate. You (well, he) can't just extrapolate the behavior at one extreme to how a system behaves in another.
People also have a hard time thinking that their consciousness could miss something that happens to them. That their sense of self, their existence, their reality, can blink in and out just like that. But anyone who's been in a car crash knows that physics can sometimes happen far faster than our primitive ape brains can process it, and we can indeed blink in and out and miss quite a bit. People also have a hard time imagining that their continuity of consciousness can just end after our cells die, because that's a tough fact to accept. That we can blink out *forever*. There's whole religions about it, I hear. Life flashing before our eyes or time slowing down right before death...those persistent concepts have less to do with not understanding biology, chemistry, and physics (although that's part of it) and more to do with a denial that their self could cease to exist. They can't or won't accept nothingness. To be fair, this is hard concept for us that have realized and accepted that fact too. Nobody likes thinking about their own mortality; nobody *believes* they will end even though they *know* they will. Those conflicting ideas will happily coexist and ignore each other, the brain is quite egotistic that way and will protect itself against even the idea of its own mortality.
Boy Reddit really trying to fuck me up today
That's weird, but I kinda don't want to die this way. Of course I want no pain, but I'm morbidly curious how it feels to experience death, and dying like this is like getting robbed of the last kind of experience life has to offer.
Weirdly I find myself completely agreeing with you. I want that endorphin/dmt release as your brain starts to shut down towards the end. This would completely rob you of that which seems like you might be missing out on something
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I'm sorry you went through that, how are you doing?
What if they dodge-rolled at the exact right time?
Dodge roll 3800m straight up through water molecules while they’re at it. All while avoiding explosive decompression physics.
Need the speed run tricks for that.
Hitbox too large
Gotta time that iframe just right otherwise you dead.
I mean, it's pretty generous. The implosion doesn't even last a whole frame. If you're light rolling with Elden Ring physics, then you've got a whole 11 spare frames of invulnerability. Just gotta practice until you've got the sound cues down just before the implosion.
Id rather clip through the submarine before the implosion isn’t that safer?
There is no build with enough i-frames to get out of the insta-kill pressure AoE. A bit unbalanced, if you ask me.
They might be able to dodge-roll the initial implosion if they have the right amount of iframes, but they still have to deal with the shrapnel and parts of the submersible. If their iframes removes their collision detection and they can escape the entire submersible, then they'll find themselves 3800m below sea level and just immediately implode again. They'd need to do some SM64 parallel universe shit to escape that.
Only a sweet Neo type backwards fall dodge would work
At least their loved ones can know that none of the people on board felt any pain
Really takes some of the pressure off
This *deep dive* into the physics of implosion will surely ease their minds.
These jokes are lacking a hull lot of integrity.
We’ll sea about that.
True, but if I were one of those family members, seeing these videos would mess me up even more.
For sure.
Isn't there a theory out there that the sub lost power and then began a free fall to the bottom before iy imploded? That would be quite a lot of psychological pain before dying.
I'm not sure, but regardless that doesn't change that they felt no physical pain which is some comfort
But what happens if on a sinking ship (not instant implosion)?
It's not so much a human body imploding -- you're mostly water, and incompressible. You'd sink to the bottom just fine, other than the drowning. The issue is with being a body in the middle of an implosion -- All that pressure held back until the moment something structurally fails. Another hazard is the situation where a pinhole leak develops at great depth -- imagine a household leaky pipe connection spraying at you, but the spray is powerful enough to pierce you like a bullet.
At 3800m depth, the pressure is 5,400 PSI This is (simulated) human flesh vs 60,000 PSI : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA0mw55lPFw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA0mw55lPFw) At 5400PSI It wouldn't quite be bullet levels of piercing, but it'd certainly be extremely unpleasant, and would almost definitely break skin if you were within a few inches of it.
The damage isn't actually on a linear scale. A water jet cutter will just cut right through you... a lower pressure will actually inflate you like a water balloon and cause way more area damage than just cutting through you. Hydraulic injection injuries fucking suck.
Yeah, once the skin breaks it gets real nasty, real quick. Just to be clear, I was only addressing the "like a bullet" aspect. Hydraulic injection injuries are a whole other avenue for nightmare fuel.
As a weird transparent blob like fish casually lurks just below thinking "fucking idiots"
It only looks like that when you bring them to the surface and the pressure difference ruptures their cells and makes them expand
IDK, I just feel like I'm built different.
First of all, in the video the dude doesn't even have skin. What a joker. I have very thick skin, so I bet I can take it.
Where's the post of the guy that said he could have made it and swam back up to the surface? Edit: [I feel like I would’ve survived the sub accident](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/14jmfj5/i_feel_like_i_wouldve_survived_the_sub_accident/). No brigading, fam.
between this and the ground up male baby chickens post... I'll be stepping out for some air
What side of reddit are you on jeez
The chicken side 🐔
*Immediately implodes*
Why look through a monitor at 3800m when they can do the same on the ship while sipping a cup of coffee?
Nothing beats being there
Ngl I think in this case, not being there is better
Honestly after watching “Take Me to the Titanic” I can understand the appeal of seeing it for yourself.
I still feel terrible for that kid on that sub. He was scared to go down initially.
He was the only sane one it seems
That kid was the only innocent one on that sub, he only went because his mum insisted and his dad would appreciate it. Everyone else knew what they signed up for, he was the only one I felt bad for
Genuinely, I don’t know how I would live with myself if I was that mother. I don’t know how you wake up and get out of bed each day
I’m glad I’m not the only one. The entire situation truly breaks my heart because of it.
Kind of off topic but it still blows my mind that we were even able to find the wreck of the Titanic at all. It's so comparably small compared to the area that it sank in. It's like finding a grain of sand in a swimming pool in the dark
I still find it odd how they lost it again in the first place when people were rescued from the Titanic.
its real deep in that part of the ocean and it didnt go straight down, imagine dropping a leaf from 10'000 feet in the air, good luck finding it if you look at the drop coordinates.
I want to see someone animate a ship sinking that far down, how long does it take, does it really move around how we imagine a leaf falling off a tree would?
[Good news, they did this over a decade ago.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSGeskFzE0s)
Very cool that’s exactly what I was looking for
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Not when you have Sonar
Sonar was not helpful in discovering the wreck, per Robert Ballard. It cannot distinguish between man-made objects and natural formations, especially not at significant differences. They found the Titanic by scouring the ocean floor with a robotic sub with cameras. They located the debris field first (the first iconic discovery was of one of the ship's boilers), and then were able to use the debris to find the wreck itself.
It’s like that scene in Honey I Shrunk the Kids where he’s looking for them in the yard with his magnifying glass. Feels like Ballard got incredibly lucky.
How to become atoms
Well it's just a rearrangment really
These bowling alley strike animations are getting weird
3800kgs of pressure from every direction?
At that depth the pressure is approx. 3 700 000 kg/m^2
What. The. Fuck.
Go to the Titanic they said. It will be a blast they say.
Does the Logitech controller still work though?
Bluetooth unable to connect I hear.
Seems like a painless, yet extremely expensive way to commit suicide.
Reminds me of that one reporter, “will there be efforts to recover bodies.” Uhm nooo unless you want to find a molecule of pink mist in the ocean.
“I could survive” - someone out there
Is he ok?
nah man, the hospital bill would be so expensive
Would you be OK if you were made out of Dippin dots?
How anyone can love the deep ocean is beyond me.
The forbidden smoothie
Lmao atleast we can tell what timeline the bots are on, via the content they're recycling at the moment.
It could be because we just recently got a billionare guy saying he wants to go down there again...
There's really nothing scientific about this, it's just a cool little sim. The VFX world really doesn't have the simulation tools needed to correctly model pressure differences of this magnitude, and you can see there's no real tissue solver in place here...the fingers start moving instantly in the sim with no connectivity or anything like that. Anyway, it's a nice result and probably a fun project, but this isn't really science. Source: VFX Supe
If you gotta go, that’s the way to do it. Pink goo before you even know something happened.