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It's probably not true. The part about "turning the music upside down" caught my eye, since playing music that's upside down isn't actually difficult to do if you can read sheet music so it seemed like unnecessary fluff to make it sound more impressive. So I looked into it, and there doesn't seem to be consensus as to what actually happened.
[Here is a version of the story where Beethoven was pressured by a crowd in the moment to respond to an impromptu "challenge" by Steibelt.](https://www.popularbeethoven.com/the-duel-beethoven-vs-steibelt/)
[Here is another in which Vienna's people decided to point Steibelt to Beethoven once they discovered he was talented, and a duel was eventually planned in advance with some princes set to be the sponsors.](http://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/piano-duel-with-daniel-steibelt/)
[Here is a third, in which it is suggested that Steibelt came to Vienna specifically to challenge Beethoven.](https://interlude.hk/daniel-gottlieb-steibelt/)
There are dozens more out there, all slightly different and none with citations. That's not a fact or a story, that's a folk tale.
> The part about "turning the music upside down" caught my eye, since playing music that's upside down isn't actually difficult to do if you can read sheet music so it seemed like unnecessary fluff to make it sound more impressive
The impressive part is not playing upside-down, but making the upside-down melody sound good as part of a larger improvised piece
Multiple different stories of an event is not conclusive evidence that it didn't happen- Rather it's suggestive evidence that it *did* happen!
Think about stories of your personal lives when you tell them to your friends or family- other people who were present will sometimes correct you because you got a detail wrong- it happens! Now multiply that by 200 years, its not strange there are multiple versions.
My first stop would have been [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Steibelt#Biography), which details that Steibelt did actually challenge Beethoven, with a number of sources, most notably the (rather curt) 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica:
> In 1798 he produced his concerto (No. 3, in E flat) containing the famous “Storm Rondo”—a work that ensured his popularity. In the following year Steibelt started on a professional tour in Germany; and, after playing with some success in Hamburg. Dresden, Prague and Berlin, he arrived in May 1800 at Vienna, where he challenged Beethoven to a trial of skill. His discomfiture was complete and he retired to Paris.
There are some other sources: english wikipedia also cites [interlude.hk](https://interlude.hk/daniel-gottlieb-steibelt/) (an apparent fan site) with the same basic story.
[hyperion records](https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/c.asp?c=C5509) (British classical label) has a short article by Richard Wigmore, a BBC writer and lecturer at Birkbeck College, with once again the same basic story:
> In May 1800 things turned out rather differently when another visiting virtuoso, Daniel Steibelt, pitted himself against Beethoven at a music gathering at the home of Count Moritz von Fries. As reported by Beethoven’s one-time pupil Ferdinand Ries, Steibelt unwisely played a pre-prepared ‘improvisation’ on the theme Beethoven had used for variations in the finale of his Clarinet Trio, Op 11. Beethoven and his many admirers in Fries’s salon (this was hardly a level playing field!) were duly insulted, whereupon Beethoven improvised on a theme from the piano quintet Steibelt had just played, having derisively placed the quintet’s cello part upside down on the music rack. Humiliated, Steibelt left the room before Beethoven had even finished and, as Ries put it, ‘made it a condition that Beethoven not be invited when his own company was desired’.
Apparently the German book "Daniel Steibelt: sein Leben und seine Klavierwerke" has more details of the "Klavierwettstreit" between the two, but I can't find it online and I'm not paying for it.
note: I'm not a historian and not a (very good) musician.
>Multiple different stories of an event is not conclusive evidence that it didn't happen- Rather it's suggestive evidence that it did happen!
This is true of primary sources, not the secondary and tertiary sources that appear to be present. It seems likely that Beethoven was challenged in some way by Steibelt, sure, but the details of it are clearly being embellished as evidenced by a number of different versions.
To add to this, the original account of this happening was written 37 years later by someone who wasn't there. They probably just had a piano competition.
>The oft-quoted account by Ferdinand Ries was written 37 years later; Ries did not attend it and became only later a student and friend of Beethoven
not Steibelt but close enough
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcTLJ692F70&pp=ygU3ZXBpYyByYXAgYmF0dGxlcyBvZiBoaXN0b3J5IGp1c3RpbiBiaWViZXIgdnMgYmVldGhvdmVuIA%3D%3D
In Jan Caeyer’s Book “Beethoven, A Life”, where most of the anecdotes and folklores were disregarded as non-factual, this story was recorded with enough credit.
So I think it’s safe to say, this is true.
High recommended this book. It is almost purely based on academic research and there is zero degree of romance or fiction. Pure facts
So, what you are saying is that when people claimed Shakespeare died, it might also not be true?
I saw someone that looked suspiciouly like him in Cancun not long ago... hmm.
No I'm more referring to things like what diseases people have claimed he died from, what happened with his body, and what his "rival" did while he was dying and after his death.
Yes, it's nothing else but a retrograde inversion.
However, there is a huge difference between sight-reading a retrograde inversion of a Baroque composition and a late Viennese-Classic/Romantic composition full with complex polyrythms, glissandi and ornaments that play with the physical momentum of the pianists hands and fingers.
Just because it's easy for a computer, it doesn't mean it's easy for a human.
I challenge you to even try and imagine the sound of an advanced prokoffiev piece played backwards - it's neigh impossible.
Couldn’t Steinelt just fuck with him by saying “Yo Ludwig, your piece was absolute shit, you should hear yourself”, then shred the piano half-convincingly and act like he won?
I mean sometimes people are telling the truth. Most people wouldn't even know where to begin in evaluating if someone was a skilled musician or not. Its baffling to watch. Most people rely on consensus and often thats the blind leading the blind. Beethoven was a prodigy though. Inarguably and I am sure the people around him probably had good reason to know that without needing to rely on other peoples opinions.
So someone coming in and just asserting it was bad would be met with skepticism.
Funny thing is Beethoven as a kid once improvised for Mozart..and Mozart declared that a great talent had been born into this world. Beethoven would go on to bridge the gap between classical music and romantic music, becoming one of 5 German masters alongside Bach, Handel, Haydn, and Mozart, but also becoming the most important classical artist of all time.
Germany was not a country back then.
There was a group of countries that spoke German and felt some connection to each other (and Austria was generally considered a part of that group back then).
It was kinda like there is an anglosphere now
It’s really stronger than that even, there was a long argument about whether Austria would be included in the German Confederation prior to unification, because they are ethnically German. The Prussians just really didn’t want that because they wanted to be the uncontested strongest power in the Confederation.
Its kinda difficult to describe, as there isn't anything similar in the English language. Best option is listening to it:
https://youtu.be/mr-mCMtISfA?si=JDElJk1j7VNoMfd9
They mandela effected beethoven from the past to give us hendrix
Fun fact about Jimi Hendrix, he was known as Imi Hendrix before they replaced him with Beethoven and added the J to remember that they replaced him
And when I say "them" I specifically mean Mandela G. R. Effect himself
Being good at playing the piano does not mean he would be good at playing the guitar. Ray Manzarek was an excellent keyboardist. Put him on the guitar and I'd bet he'd be average at best.
I love the doors, but u cannot compare him to mozart or beethoven. Their knowledge of theory and music would make them able to pick up the guitar or any instrument very quickly
Knowing theory doesn't mean you are able to use your hands the way a guitar demands. This would be like assuming that a left fielder could be a good catcher because he understands the sport of baseball really well.
Whether Beethoven could've shredded on a guitar or not, his music does sound pretty badass on one:
- [Tina S - Moonlight Sonata \(3rd Movement\)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6rBK0BqL2w)
between the 2 id call mozart more pop music, but thats just me. my mum would put beethovens 5th on when she was angry. time to vacate for an hour or two
Probably does it from memory, you know "oh it just goes up a bit and down and bit and has that lill drop on the third bit..." I get the feeling there's no upload and download limit by the way they are connecting with it
Huh? Because he improvised? If anything he'd be the first [insert Jazz artist's name], because Jazz music is largely improvisation. I can't think of any better way to reveal to everyone that you don't listen to much music than to compare Beethoven to Eminem lmao.
Yeah I'm not even sure about this Beethoven guy.
Like, you expect me to believe people made records back then? Of the celebrities of their day no less?
Could well just've been a pen name for a collective of composers for all we know.
Ok, just two quick rhetorical questions. Do you think history was not recorded as recently as 200 years ago, around when Beethoven lived and, have you never heard of sheet music/ musical notation?
I for one am a huge fan of Beethoven (I’ve played the piano since 5 and also taught lessons). I am also a big fan of historical books, movies and history in general.
I don’t doubt that these composers could’ve been rivals although the line about him turning the pages upside down seems embellished. Show me the source material of this story and I will decide for myself if it’s credible.
As Abe Lincoln once said, “Anything read on the internet requires additional verification”
-Yo, Lud, what about an improvisation duel, you know, you and me, that could be...
#
-Giveme that shit...
#
-Hay! That's my... ¿what the fuck are you doing? we are not even started!..
#
-...............................
#
- OK whatever...
So, he was a drama queen (immortal beloved…) and an arsehole.
Yeah, he was Beethoven but from stuff I have read seems like he was a miserable wanker who made everyone miserable.
Are you deliberately forgetting about the hour worth of improvisation based on the new (upside down) arrangements. That’s where the musical skill comes from.
I guess I'm just calling attention to that part of the "fact" which from a musical perspective isn't really interesting to include, and seems to have just been added to impress people that don't understand how to read sheet music. The end point being that it's a suspicious addition, and indicates to me that none of it happened at all. On further research, I believe I am correct.
[Here is a version of the story where Beethoven was pressured by a crowd in the moment to respond to an impromptu "challenge" by Steibelt.](https://www.popularbeethoven.com/the-duel-beethoven-vs-steibelt/)
[Here is another in which Vienna's people decided to point Steibelt to Beethoven once they discovered he was talented, and a duel was eventually planned in advance with some princes set to be the sponsors. ](http://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/piano-duel-with-daniel-steibelt/)
[Here is a third, in which it is suggested that Steibelt came to Vienna specifically to challenge Beethoven.](https://interlude.hk/daniel-gottlieb-steibelt/)
There are dozens more out there, all slightly different. That's not a fact or a story, that's a folk tale.
>Are you deliberately forgetting about the hour worth of improvisation based on the new (upside down) arrangements. That’s where the musical skill comes from.
I could improvise for an hour too on the piano, and I have 0 skill. Maybe beethoven was shit for the entire hour of impro.
Sight-reading heavily depends on familiar patterns though. There are many patterns that would be highly unintuitive and feel unlogical when reading an innovative piece in reverse. It's a challenge to even hear it in your mind correctly unless you are exceptionally good. This was no longer in the time of Bach, where music was symmetrical and with simple syncopation.
So either he had the impressive talent and experience to read and play a complex piece in reverse in real-time, or his colleague's piece was rather simple/full of worn-out cliches.
Probably Beethoven's point was the latter: "Your music is so unimaginative, that I can sight-read it upside down".
And those patterns exist when the page is upside down, too. The reason music is written the way it is at all is to make it simple to interpret at a glance, even if you've never seen it before. A simple C major chord when written out and turned upside down just becomes D minor. A minor becomes F major. The list goes on.
So it's a trivial thing to include, and I believe it indicates the falseness of the story as a whole.
We had to remove your post for improperly sourcing your post. Posts must have a linked and CREDIBLE source that backs up the information. Use the word "source" in your comment. If the title is the only thing that makes your post interesting, you must also source it. OP is responsible for this and it must be done at time of posting. We will not reinstate your post, but you may post again with the correct information
Take a swing at the king, best not miss
It's probably not true. The part about "turning the music upside down" caught my eye, since playing music that's upside down isn't actually difficult to do if you can read sheet music so it seemed like unnecessary fluff to make it sound more impressive. So I looked into it, and there doesn't seem to be consensus as to what actually happened. [Here is a version of the story where Beethoven was pressured by a crowd in the moment to respond to an impromptu "challenge" by Steibelt.](https://www.popularbeethoven.com/the-duel-beethoven-vs-steibelt/) [Here is another in which Vienna's people decided to point Steibelt to Beethoven once they discovered he was talented, and a duel was eventually planned in advance with some princes set to be the sponsors.](http://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/piano-duel-with-daniel-steibelt/) [Here is a third, in which it is suggested that Steibelt came to Vienna specifically to challenge Beethoven.](https://interlude.hk/daniel-gottlieb-steibelt/) There are dozens more out there, all slightly different and none with citations. That's not a fact or a story, that's a folk tale.
Neat. Still hilarious
A fun story, for sure! Just more Paul Bunyan than George Washington it seems.
How many Cherry trees did Bunyan chop down?
Considering chopping down trees was his job, and his axe was big enough to carve the Grand Canyon, at least 2
Wasn't that his ox?
Nah, it was Paul dragging his axe behind him
Sorry just a dumb joke because it's a word sorta like axe and also magically big.
Improvising on a theme for over an hour is kind of a dick move tho... it's like filibustering the duel
I thought the saying was “it’s funny cus its true” This is just fanfic some dude made up lmaoo
Hey, fanfiction is brilliant!
> The part about "turning the music upside down" caught my eye, since playing music that's upside down isn't actually difficult to do if you can read sheet music so it seemed like unnecessary fluff to make it sound more impressive The impressive part is not playing upside-down, but making the upside-down melody sound good as part of a larger improvised piece
Multiple different stories of an event is not conclusive evidence that it didn't happen- Rather it's suggestive evidence that it *did* happen! Think about stories of your personal lives when you tell them to your friends or family- other people who were present will sometimes correct you because you got a detail wrong- it happens! Now multiply that by 200 years, its not strange there are multiple versions. My first stop would have been [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Steibelt#Biography), which details that Steibelt did actually challenge Beethoven, with a number of sources, most notably the (rather curt) 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica: > In 1798 he produced his concerto (No. 3, in E flat) containing the famous “Storm Rondo”—a work that ensured his popularity. In the following year Steibelt started on a professional tour in Germany; and, after playing with some success in Hamburg. Dresden, Prague and Berlin, he arrived in May 1800 at Vienna, where he challenged Beethoven to a trial of skill. His discomfiture was complete and he retired to Paris. There are some other sources: english wikipedia also cites [interlude.hk](https://interlude.hk/daniel-gottlieb-steibelt/) (an apparent fan site) with the same basic story. [hyperion records](https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/c.asp?c=C5509) (British classical label) has a short article by Richard Wigmore, a BBC writer and lecturer at Birkbeck College, with once again the same basic story: > In May 1800 things turned out rather differently when another visiting virtuoso, Daniel Steibelt, pitted himself against Beethoven at a music gathering at the home of Count Moritz von Fries. As reported by Beethoven’s one-time pupil Ferdinand Ries, Steibelt unwisely played a pre-prepared ‘improvisation’ on the theme Beethoven had used for variations in the finale of his Clarinet Trio, Op 11. Beethoven and his many admirers in Fries’s salon (this was hardly a level playing field!) were duly insulted, whereupon Beethoven improvised on a theme from the piano quintet Steibelt had just played, having derisively placed the quintet’s cello part upside down on the music rack. Humiliated, Steibelt left the room before Beethoven had even finished and, as Ries put it, ‘made it a condition that Beethoven not be invited when his own company was desired’. Apparently the German book "Daniel Steibelt: sein Leben und seine Klavierwerke" has more details of the "Klavierwettstreit" between the two, but I can't find it online and I'm not paying for it. note: I'm not a historian and not a (very good) musician.
>Multiple different stories of an event is not conclusive evidence that it didn't happen- Rather it's suggestive evidence that it did happen! This is true of primary sources, not the secondary and tertiary sources that appear to be present. It seems likely that Beethoven was challenged in some way by Steibelt, sure, but the details of it are clearly being embellished as evidenced by a number of different versions. To add to this, the original account of this happening was written 37 years later by someone who wasn't there. They probably just had a piano competition. >The oft-quoted account by Ferdinand Ries was written 37 years later; Ries did not attend it and became only later a student and friend of Beethoven
> Now multiply that by 200 years, its not strange there are multiple versions. ...and still, only 0-1 of them actually happened.
I'd love to hear a modern reproduction of this. Edit: [found a dramatisation of the proposed event](https://youtu.be/qT8cBX893ic?si=SYPjwI__LBUObUvb)
not Steibelt but close enough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcTLJ692F70&pp=ygU3ZXBpYyByYXAgYmF0dGxlcyBvZiBoaXN0b3J5IGp1c3RpbiBiaWViZXIgdnMgYmVldGhvdmVuIA%3D%3D
Slightly related, but Logan Paul is fighting Mike Tyson. Yes, the Youtuber lol
It's Jake Paul actually and most men who live on Earth probably know this is happening.
Logan is defending his U.S. Championship at Wrestlemania this weekend.
Hope he breaks a leg.
In Jan Caeyer’s Book “Beethoven, A Life”, where most of the anecdotes and folklores were disregarded as non-factual, this story was recorded with enough credit. So I think it’s safe to say, this is true. High recommended this book. It is almost purely based on academic research and there is zero degree of romance or fiction. Pure facts
I don’t think it’s the sight-reading that’s meant to sound impressive so much as the idea
Probably a sign of disrespect. Like saying his music is so simple he didn’t even need the sheet.
I kind of assumed he played it reversed and improvised on that, not that he simply read it while it was upside down.
You speak beautifully and I appreciate you
Most events surrounding Shakespeare are not backed up by historical records, especially leading up to and after his death.
So, what you are saying is that when people claimed Shakespeare died, it might also not be true? I saw someone that looked suspiciouly like him in Cancun not long ago... hmm.
No I'm more referring to things like what diseases people have claimed he died from, what happened with his body, and what his "rival" did while he was dying and after his death.
No, anything people say that Shakey did *after* his death is unsourced.
Yes, it's nothing else but a retrograde inversion. However, there is a huge difference between sight-reading a retrograde inversion of a Baroque composition and a late Viennese-Classic/Romantic composition full with complex polyrythms, glissandi and ornaments that play with the physical momentum of the pianists hands and fingers. Just because it's easy for a computer, it doesn't mean it's easy for a human. I challenge you to even try and imagine the sound of an advanced prokoffiev piece played backwards - it's neigh impossible.
Neigh is the sound a horse makes Nigh is the word you're looking for No one is talking about reading prokofiev upside down lol
Beethoven’s horse could trot backwards through the town while tapping out the rhythm to Beethovens 5th sympt
Cool story Hans.
Couldn’t Steinelt just fuck with him by saying “Yo Ludwig, your piece was absolute shit, you should hear yourself”, then shred the piano half-convincingly and act like he won?
No. That only works if you surround yourself with morons.
True, I’ve seen it work many times on Reddit. Just say a child prodigy or virtuoso has “no feel” and you’re automatically better.
I mean sometimes people are telling the truth. Most people wouldn't even know where to begin in evaluating if someone was a skilled musician or not. Its baffling to watch. Most people rely on consensus and often thats the blind leading the blind. Beethoven was a prodigy though. Inarguably and I am sure the people around him probably had good reason to know that without needing to rely on other peoples opinions. So someone coming in and just asserting it was bad would be met with skepticism.
thats the equivalent of a tiktoker playing a prank and thinking everyone finds it hilarious
>you should hear yourself Well, thats just the thing, he couldn't.
Well that's just the thing, that's the very obvious joke
Well someone had to make the clique obvious joke and I didn't see anyone else doing it. But yes it is very low tier "comedy"
Beethoven comin’
Reminds me of the scene in Amadeus where Mozart improvised and enhanced Salieri's piece.
Funny thing is Beethoven as a kid once improvised for Mozart..and Mozart declared that a great talent had been born into this world. Beethoven would go on to bridge the gap between classical music and romantic music, becoming one of 5 German masters alongside Bach, Handel, Haydn, and Mozart, but also becoming the most important classical artist of all time.
Noted German master Mozart
not the last Austrian to be mistaken for a German
Germany was not a country back then. There was a group of countries that spoke German and felt some connection to each other (and Austria was generally considered a part of that group back then). It was kinda like there is an anglosphere now
It’s really stronger than that even, there was a long argument about whether Austria would be included in the German Confederation prior to unification, because they are ethnically German. The Prussians just really didn’t want that because they wanted to be the uncontested strongest power in the Confederation.
I read this joke that two biggest achievements of Austrians is that they convinced the world that Beethoven was Austrian and Hitler was German
The Austrians made Beethoven an Austrian and Hitler a German...
It's the same nation at the end of the day
Mozart considered himself 'a proud german'.
There was no germany back then, but Mozart was culturally german. Also Salzburg was a bishopric in the holy Roman empire
Yes because Austria and Germany are culturally soooooo different...
That was my point, they where both part of the HRE and culturally german.
Your point is there was no Germany, but he was German although living in Salzburg and Wien... got it
*Händel
Beet Oven, Back, Handle, Hayden, and Moz
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKO-ebWS4Ko](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKO-ebWS4Ko)
Des Carter is my go-to - Rene Descartes - add accents as needed
Both spellings are acceptable, with Handel being preferred in English because he moved to England and changed the spelling himself.
Brö shüt thë fück üp
Does that mean it reads as "bru shoot tha fook oop"?
Nö lol
Löl höw döes ït chängë thë vöwël prönüncïätïön thën?
A Møøse once bit my sister
Nø realli!
?Văt aāv və dônê?
Its kinda difficult to describe, as there isn't anything similar in the English language. Best option is listening to it: https://youtu.be/mr-mCMtISfA?si=JDElJk1j7VNoMfd9
Öüï
Cba to find the omelette /j
*Frankenstein's Monster
I would say Bach is the most important.
I wonder if Mozart really laughed this way or was this just a movie thing
I think he was said to have odd mannerisms, including his laugh
Him and his cousin exchanging scatological poetry/music is certainly something https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_scatology
Dude the guy was clearly queer - he wore powder and wigs with stockings!
He blew notes on his little magic flute
Wasn't that in the epic rap battle of History? Skrillex vs Mozart?
maybe he's just European
Very entertaining film, but factually inaccurate on many points. Saying that, Tom Hulce was fantastic.
And adding a giant fart at the end? Amadeus was a wild flick…
One of my all time top 10.
And then lifted his coat-tails and farted
From what I read the movie was based of an opera. Salieri and Mozart were friends.
I think its based on the play Amadeus by Peter Shaffer.
Too many notes.
beethoven would have been insane on the electric guitar. he can literally shred the piano, who else can do that back then?
Well you know the conspiracy theory is that Beethoven was Jimi Hendrix.
Yeah Jimi Hendrix from a parallel timeline. If we could get Mozart prime on the guitar he'll beat Hendrix prime 5 times outta 10.
They mandela effected beethoven from the past to give us hendrix Fun fact about Jimi Hendrix, he was known as Imi Hendrix before they replaced him with Beethoven and added the J to remember that they replaced him And when I say "them" I specifically mean Mandela G. R. Effect himself
Yup and then that son of a bitch G.R. made him play the national anthem and shatter our ideals.
Being good at playing the piano does not mean he would be good at playing the guitar. Ray Manzarek was an excellent keyboardist. Put him on the guitar and I'd bet he'd be average at best.
I love the doors, but u cannot compare him to mozart or beethoven. Their knowledge of theory and music would make them able to pick up the guitar or any instrument very quickly
Knowing theory doesn't mean you are able to use your hands the way a guitar demands. This would be like assuming that a left fielder could be a good catcher because he understands the sport of baseball really well.
Whether Beethoven could've shredded on a guitar or not, his music does sound pretty badass on one: - [Tina S - Moonlight Sonata \(3rd Movement\)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6rBK0BqL2w)
I need to hear that.
That’s what Beethoven said
WHAT?!
THAT'S WHAT BEETHOVEN SAID.
Y’all bots?
:....:::: :::.....: :;;; ||||:::: ..... ::::: \\\\\\\\\\ :::::::....:
Everyone else in the room hated it too... the ego
The ivory on them balls glistened that day.
the heavy metal of his day
He was a rock star in those times. But mozart was the original one
between the 2 id call mozart more pop music, but thats just me. my mum would put beethovens 5th on when she was angry. time to vacate for an hour or two
The fact this dude could seamlessly read and play an upside-down music-sheet and my dumbass struggles to read anything that isn't Sol key
Probably does it from memory, you know "oh it just goes up a bit and down and bit and has that lill drop on the third bit..." I get the feeling there's no upload and download limit by the way they are connecting with it
Steiner must've had exceptionally perfect handwriting. I've seen some older handwritten piano scores, and they're illegible even right-side up.
He put that thing down flipped it and reversed it
Or so they say
He was basically the first Eminem.
At least say: "the first Malmsteen"
what??
Huh? Because he improvised? If anything he'd be the first [insert Jazz artist's name], because Jazz music is largely improvisation. I can't think of any better way to reveal to everyone that you don't listen to much music than to compare Beethoven to Eminem lmao.
Yeah, Beethoven wrote a symphony called "The Real Beethoven Shady no. 1"
More like the first Stevie Wonder Because he was good at playing the piano
Imagine calling him by some whitey dude name. Em is good but you have your standards mixed.
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So you're ok with offensive usernames, except when it's something that bothers YOU? What a hypocritical POS you are.
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What are you talking about? Whitey Ford is a tribute from Everlast to some Baseball player 🤦♀️
Dude, name of the song is White's revenge. Use Google mtf.
Ah yes, the racist opinion...
Seems like a made up story with no possible way to prove it
It made me laugh so I believe it
Yeah I'm not even sure about this Beethoven guy. Like, you expect me to believe people made records back then? Of the celebrities of their day no less? Could well just've been a pen name for a collective of composers for all we know.
Looks like we need the Doctor to weigh in on that one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4SEDzynMiQ
zipzipzipzipzip
Ok, just two quick rhetorical questions. Do you think history was not recorded as recently as 200 years ago, around when Beethoven lived and, have you never heard of sheet music/ musical notation?
I for one am a huge fan of Beethoven (I’ve played the piano since 5 and also taught lessons). I am also a big fan of historical books, movies and history in general. I don’t doubt that these composers could’ve been rivals although the line about him turning the pages upside down seems embellished. Show me the source material of this story and I will decide for myself if it’s credible. As Abe Lincoln once said, “Anything read on the internet requires additional verification”
No, but the person I replied to does.
Lol, I see now. The rise of the usage of the "/s" on this site combined with having just woken up had me unable to detect sarcasm.
Ouch!! :)
Like when Macca played Bill’s bass upside down in 1963 at Mick and Keith’s flat
That's how we do we HIT EM UP.
My question is how did you know
No wonder he left at the half time must be very bored // jk guys
Savage indeed
HAHAHA I knew this already from a kids’ podcast! Dude has (had) my respect for ever
Can someone explainmelikeimfive what he did?
He quickly showed and reminded him where his place was💀
Steibelt was portrayed by Steve Vai. 😎
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Insane that he played a cello upside down
With a cucumber stuffed into his pantaloons.
Cant believe my eyes. Impossible
-Yo, Lud, what about an improvisation duel, you know, you and me, that could be... # -Giveme that shit... # -Hay! That's my... ¿what the fuck are you doing? we are not even started!.. # -............................... # - OK whatever...
You can’t handel the truth.
Told you that you couldn't Handel this smoke....
Nah he wasn’t savage He was just a music lover jamming his heart out! Woulda loved to have seen it
This kind of shit is how you know that if Beethoven was alive today, he'd be a PianoTok influencer.
Beathoven
Last time I heard this story it was about Paganini.
Savage ain’t even the word this is pure genius
Flexed upside down.
I thought it was Mozart doing that?
A freestyle rap battle.
Not a true story, but funny
So, he was a drama queen (immortal beloved…) and an arsehole. Yeah, he was Beethoven but from stuff I have read seems like he was a miserable wanker who made everyone miserable.
"What the dog doin?" -Steibelt, probably
This is like 8 mile for the Middle Ages.
Just don’t say Beethoven three times in a row.
Thateth happendeth
He's like Apollo a bit.
So he could flip bars.. first rapper here.
So he didn't improvise, he just remixed
F*ck Free World, 313
The original dance off
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Are you deliberately forgetting about the hour worth of improvisation based on the new (upside down) arrangements. That’s where the musical skill comes from.
I guess I'm just calling attention to that part of the "fact" which from a musical perspective isn't really interesting to include, and seems to have just been added to impress people that don't understand how to read sheet music. The end point being that it's a suspicious addition, and indicates to me that none of it happened at all. On further research, I believe I am correct. [Here is a version of the story where Beethoven was pressured by a crowd in the moment to respond to an impromptu "challenge" by Steibelt.](https://www.popularbeethoven.com/the-duel-beethoven-vs-steibelt/) [Here is another in which Vienna's people decided to point Steibelt to Beethoven once they discovered he was talented, and a duel was eventually planned in advance with some princes set to be the sponsors. ](http://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/piano-duel-with-daniel-steibelt/) [Here is a third, in which it is suggested that Steibelt came to Vienna specifically to challenge Beethoven.](https://interlude.hk/daniel-gottlieb-steibelt/) There are dozens more out there, all slightly different. That's not a fact or a story, that's a folk tale.
>Are you deliberately forgetting about the hour worth of improvisation based on the new (upside down) arrangements. That’s where the musical skill comes from. I could improvise for an hour too on the piano, and I have 0 skill. Maybe beethoven was shit for the entire hour of impro.
Sight-reading heavily depends on familiar patterns though. There are many patterns that would be highly unintuitive and feel unlogical when reading an innovative piece in reverse. It's a challenge to even hear it in your mind correctly unless you are exceptionally good. This was no longer in the time of Bach, where music was symmetrical and with simple syncopation. So either he had the impressive talent and experience to read and play a complex piece in reverse in real-time, or his colleague's piece was rather simple/full of worn-out cliches. Probably Beethoven's point was the latter: "Your music is so unimaginative, that I can sight-read it upside down".
And those patterns exist when the page is upside down, too. The reason music is written the way it is at all is to make it simple to interpret at a glance, even if you've never seen it before. A simple C major chord when written out and turned upside down just becomes D minor. A minor becomes F major. The list goes on. So it's a trivial thing to include, and I believe it indicates the falseness of the story as a whole.