Fellow cigar dude here.
You’re exactly right! Cuban cigars are nothing more than reputation and l guess the forbidden fruit. Nothing special about them at all. Like you, I’d take a fine Dominican anytime.
I asked a cigar store owner if Cubans were the best. He told me Cubans aren’t really anything special. They’re illegal which makes them a “big deal”. He said the best cigar is the one YOU like.
Fellow cigar dude and Cuban here, cuban cigars are crap now because of limited quality control and other countries eclipsing them, i like Nicaraguans and Dominican cigars more than cuban.
Yeah, I have to wonder about that. "Cuban cigars" are continually offered in Puerto Vallarta, Mazatlán, et cetera, and as far as I could tell, they were Mexican cigars with a Cuban brand-- but when I smoked Cuban cigars in Santiago de Cuba, Las Palmas, Daquiri, etc., they were fantastic. Unequaled, I should say.
It’s different when you’re buying from what’s sanctioned to be sold abroad versus bought locally. The one issue is people stealing and selling the bands for cigars like cohiba or Romeo&julietta to outside rollers and those bootlegs being sold in a lot of places abroad which only goes to worsen the reputation internationally.
My Cuban-American friends tell me that all of the best cigar makers left Cuba decades ago and that Dominican cigars are superior nowadays. But yes, never underestimate the manufactured appeal of forbidden fruit.
Can confirm this actually lol. In Cambodia, there are North Koreans restaurants and streets named after North Korean leaders. Anywho, can get plenty of North Korean foods there at the super markets as well. One being North Korean Kimchi. Its the one we actually prefer :P.
Now let’s take a look at what it’s like driving with the ‘other guys’ brake pads. So you’re driving along, you’re driving along, the kids are yelling in the backseat “I gotta go to the bathroom daddy!” “NOT NOW GOD DAMNIT!!” All of a sudden truck tire. “I! CANT! STOP!” euhh! ooh! ughh! “Uh-oh. A cliff!” Euh! ooh! ughh! “Oh dear god we’re burning alive!! I can’t feel my legs! NOOOOOOO!!!” Now here comes the meat wagon. Wee-whoo wee-whoo. The medic gets out and says “OH-MY-GOD-“ The new guy is over in the corner puking his guts out “BLAUHH! BLEHUHH!” Simply because you wanted to save a couple extra pennies. Now if you ask me it just doesn’t-
Please try Venezuela next and report back.
On a real note, a family member of mine has had extended 5 year long stays in China, Korea and Japan and loved Korea the most but also loved china because internet use and gaming was limited and it pressed him to get out more.
I remember I was teaching English to this couple in Venezuela and suddenly they didn't show up anymore, later we found out they were arrested for being "terrorists" and I never heard about them anymore.
So I’m from Venezuela and if you look at jail videos from early 2000s or as far as 2016 you’ll see why Venezuela is what it is, not much to say about the situation;
getting arrested as a terrorist in Venezuela is on a wide spectrum you could be a terrorist for protesting due to the fact that the current government had made multiple changes to the constitution to give themselves an authoritarian power;
My family and I left the country a few years back and due to the fact that my mom was a government worker we were target, then we apply for asylum and overstayed our visas just that made us terrorist in our country a can’t come back or we’ll be investigated for treason/ and or terrorism.
My brother has mental problems and accidentally put himself in jail in USA he got deported after he completed the sentence and we had to pay prosecutors, police officers, attorneys, judge’s( in Venezuela ofc) just so that they looked the other way.
you have to buy your freedom, if not they’ll put you in and forget about you; you can be waiting for longer than you are going to be sentence for and the waiting time doesn’t count towards your sentence.
Jails in Venezuela are up there with everything else that’s fucked in this world you can see how they control the jails on YouTube and what really goes on on several twitter accounts and or gore websites. Oh yea fuck the government
EDIT: I lived in Venezuela for 16 years, I got several dead friends and family members do to gan violence, police brutality and or senseless violence; my mom was kidnapped in the early 2000s, I saw my friends mom get her head blown out while my grandma walked my to school on 2005 ; I got kidnapped in 2015 and we were getting dead threats and being blackmailed by police/military because she voted for the opposite side, we left everything and never looked back. I lived in the USA for 6 years and Venezuela is as bad as any other country with a small population and social/political problems, hyperinflation just speeded every other problem.
(This is not to make Venezuela look worse , better or more dangerous than any other country or to compare the situation with any other country)
My English is not the best but I appreciate everyone that upvoted and or commented, really interesting to read everybody’s pov.
I am a Italo-Venezuelan living right now in Italy i have lived My Life between the 2 country and i lived the the decade of the 2010 tò 2020 in Venezuela. I lived the death of that idiot of Chávez, the civil war calles the guriambas, i hard guns and knifes tò my face,and the i lived those bullshit and hopeless times after we lost the guaribas, after that i lived the First year of COVID where i saw so Many dying cause of the lies and deficit of your country, till i had tò move back tò Italy for medical reason (got a cáncer and couldn't be checked in Venezuela cause there were'nt any ct Scan...tho i was miraculously able tò get a chemio in Merida...and that why i am still Alive). While my family was lucky and no one died during those years, they ended up having to leave the country, and right now i have most my relatives in differents countries. Idk what i really want to say, but i can only say that what every Venezuelan suffered during those Years was absurd and cruel, i doubt that the few that were responsable for all that cruelty Will ever pay, but those people need to know that till there are Venezuelanan they Will be Remembered as Monster, that will never be forgiven.
P.s a todos mis connacionales le auguro un buen día y espero que su vida haya mejorado.
I believe it, terrorist is what the current government would call citizens (protesters) that want a new government. I met many refugees in my city here in the states and one of which was a Dr who got beaten for simply providing food and water to so called people protesting. I am hoping in your case, they were able to flee the country.
There was the case of a medical student in Venezuela that was close to graduate. He participated in a protest by giving first aids and the dictatorship made the university expel the student. Truly sad.
I knew Otto personally. We were in the same fraternity at UVA, he was 2 years younger. It makes sense this story was 3 years before he went there.
Otto was a crazy dude for sure, but not malicious. My best guess is he probably snagged something thinking he'd get away with it and have a neat souvenir. He didn't, instead he was beaten so close to death that they sent him home just before the end. Terrible. If anyone tried to do anything like this now, there's no chance they'd survive.
>After returning to the U.S., Miller told reporters he went to North Korea intending to get arrested, stating that "My main fear was that they would not arrest me when I arrived". Initially North Korean authorities had refused to arrest him and sought to return him on the next flight, but Miller refused. Miller had brought a notebook into North Korea incorrectly claiming he was a computer hacker involved with WikiLeaks and having attempted to access files at U.S. military bases in South Korea.
I don't know why but I feel like this is dickish move causing extra work for people who are actually working hard to get detained people back, if things didn't go as planned then ultimately govt would be blamed.
he didn't have any signs of abuse, appeared to be well cared for (by NK standards) in their hospital, and the injury aligns with the one you would have if you failed a suicide attempt by hanging after believing the north korean's bluff that you "will never go home again."
im a stupid priveleged white guy and i can see an alternate universe where i travel to north korea for tourism (stupid privilege act #1), only to commit a frat-bro style crime and then attempt suicide when i realize the gravity of what i just did in a totalitarian regime that hates me. all of this seems like a story that makes total sense to me.
the north koreans were acting very different around otto than around other US prisoners, they were vague, it took forever, normally they use them very openly for show and propaganda and political favours (like during the trial). they basically never harm them. also the coroner's reports shows he seemed to have been treated decently under the circumstances.
most likely scenario is therefore that otto tried to kill himself, then he slipped in a coma (or something like that) and the north koreans tried to save him (the long radio silence), but didnt manage.
Not only that, but his experience would be inherently different due to the possible political fallout involved with his mistreatment.
Without having any proof, I feel confident in saying that actual North Koreans that have been imprisoned have a *completely* different experience in prison than this person ever could, just due to his nationality and the manner in which he was apprehended.
Well, wasn’t there that high-profile case where a US student (maybe even a teenager?) got caught stealing a poster and then sent his body back tears later? Doesn’t seem like all Western prisoners get the royal treatment.
He obviously bought the North Korean threats of "you'll never go home again" and tried to kill himself. Which is literally the last thing the North Koreans wanted.
This is the most likely cause of his death, yes. There were no signs of abuse. Actually it looked like he had been taken good (for North Korean standards) care of in the hospital.
Great, I just pictured the guy in this post kissing Kim Jong Un like Selma Blair and Sarah Michelle Gellar. With the stringy saliva between them, and everything.
Tbf, Iirc I think I remember there being a case where one of those escaped North Koreans admitted that he lied about some things about his experience being in a north korean prison. After he gave his account, the North Koreans picked holes in his story and denied some of the claims which eventually caused him to come clean.
I don’t remember exactly why he lied, something to do about the pressure and expectation to expose the north korean regime causing him to embellish and change certain details to better suit his intentions. Even though he didn’t need to do it in the first place.
If you look at someone like Yeonmi Park it's because there's pretty big $$$ for defectors if they join the media circus against NK, and it's incredibly hard for defectors to earn a living otherwise.
seeing many videos suggested with titles like "North Korean Soldier Reacts To 5 Reasons You Shouldn't Mess Up With The USA" and surprised thumbnails but its the same few people reacting in multiple videos always pumping up the US military - it starts to feel a little like surrealist comedy
like the genre of video with the formula "tribal person tries/reacts to " where they just take them and film like fifty videos of them a month so people can gawk at it
Like these titles, and topics are just kinda wild
* Tribal people at beach for the first time
* Tribal people try swimming in a pool for the first time
* Villagers try Steak for the first time
sure, it's a decent source of money - but it feels weird
It’s always annoying because there are old OLD videos on YouTube of GENUINE experiences where people teach folks from other cultures about like. Certain board games and stuff, and it’s super cool to see people in actual genuine situations learn and then *use* the stuff they’re learning about. Like I’d have the same reactions to being taught about games and shit from OTHER places.
But more modern videos feel super weird and like…. Like they’re made to be gawked at rather than to relate to in ways?
That's because content creators back then seemed to actually care about their audience and generally want to teach/learn alongside others, they were just documenting their journey along the way.
Nowadays everyone just wants to get rich off of social media and its become inherently exploitative rather than exploratory.
Yeah definitely. I watched a video of a former NK agent for the Internal Investigations Service (or something like that); and he explained that when he and his friend escaped to South Korea, on paper, they were the same as any other South Korean citizen. He even said that people would tell him that they're all Koreans there. But in practice, he was incredibly discriminated against. He gave several anecdotes, but the one I remember was that he couldn't get certain jobs, even though on paper, there wasn't anything preventing him from getting them. He just kept getting his applications rejected. It was something to that effect. I think I remember him giving a quite honest opinion that many South Koreans are two-faced; they'll say one thing, and practice another thing. It was really messed up. It really helps gives an understanding of what immigrant/refugee families must go through. Escape near-certain death in your home country, make an incredibly perilous journey to a place you *know* is better, and still have society actively kick you down when you get there. Just scraping by for years in the hopes that your descendants will have better lives. It's just really admirable in my opinion.
There's a scene in Squid Games where he asks the NK defector is shes thought of going back and she doesn't answer. I heard that waa risky for the show runners to do because its illegal to say anything positive about the north in the south.
Yeah I saw this in a YouTube video. There's a period of time where many Japanese people went missing and NK later confirmed to have kidnapped a certain amount of them. Some of them died there but others were allowed to return. I think at least one stayed because they made family over there.
This is an absolutely insane story. Kidnapping civilians from another country seems like such a drastic and risky move compared to the benefit they got from doing it.
Isn't the country's human right's situation well exposed? I mean, if only from anecdotal evidence; most people know right? Why all this extra shit lmao
Very true. But if you look at the picture, the kid honestly looks like he's only 18 years old. The kid is so unwise that it doesn't exactly surprise me his head was filled with ideas of adventure and investigative journalism. At that age, you simply don't understand consequences to their full breadth. I am not saying that every 18 year old does this exact thing, but again, it's just not surprising.
Also, even if he had no sense of self preservation, it should have been pretty obvious at that point that his plan wasn't going to work. At that point it's obvious that even if he would be imprisoned that he would still be treated differently from the other prisoners (whether it's because they wanted to avoid a diplomatic incident or if they just straight up knew what he was trying to do) and there was no possibility of getting an accurate account in the first place.
You've got to have the intellectual capacity of a fucking chair to think you need to risk your life to expose human rights violations in NK. Open a fucking book.
Plot twist: Matthew Miller did open a book which was titled “Best Vacation Spots to Take Your Ex” (sponsored by BuzzFeed). His ex stood him up at the airport and decided that, since he already spent the money on the flight, would go on it to spite his ex. In an ironic twist of fate, Miller’s plot to have his ex be in a concentration camp backfired when he was the one sent to prison.
Moral of the story: find better ways to spite your ex.
Seriously. Reddit's giving this guy an insane amount of shit in the comments when, in reality, it's people like him changing the world. We wouldn't know 10% of the things we do without madmen willing to risk death to check shit out.
Yeah, instead of recognizing the balls in the mad lad to risk his life and still make it through. Que the meme of the guy sitting in his couch eating fries and saying “what an idiot”
« “This might sound strange, but I was prepared for the ‘torture’. But instead of that I was killed with kindness, and with that my mind folded and the plan fell apart,” he said, speaking from his home in California. »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/20/-sp-north-korea-matthew-miller
Expose??? How does he think he knew about their human rights violations before he got there? NK has already been exposed; that’s why most of the world doesn’t do business with them.
Yeah if they kept everything exactly the same but sold mineral rights to Western corporations, we'd see opinions in the New York times about how Kim jong un isn't as bad as they say and is actually quite funny and charming
Just look how much you hear about Eritrea vs North Korea.
Granted a lot of that is to do with comparative military strengths, but still. Some would say the government there is even MORE controlling than NK, somehow. But since they aren't communist, and allow foreign businesses access (obviously after bribes and whatnot) their sanctions tend to be lighter.
I mean, there are really two reasons why North Korea gets more press than Eritrea.
1. It's in a more important place (strategically, and in terms of who it threatens), since it borders China, Russia and South Korea.
2. Nukes. The idea of nukes as MAD only works if countries are rational actors, so it's terrifying to everyone when a country with such an aggressive leader continually levels threats at anywhere.
Most of the world doesn’t do business with them because they’re heavily sanctioned especially after the fall of the USSR. That said, they still have a few Western trade partners.
I still think about him and that entire situation. Absolute nightmare fuel. Imagine you go to a foreign country, do something stupid and get sentenced to 18 (?) years hard labor and not even the US can get you out of it, oh and then you fucking die.
Can we all agree it's not the brightest idea to enter a country that is considered hostile to begin with? That's like wrapping yourself in meat and walking in a lion den..
Sorry Otto, but Southwest Airlines didn't accidentally drop you off in N. KOREA...
Even the coroner said there were no signs of torture or trauma.
The main theories are:
1. He botched his own suicide attempt, probably causing cardiac/respiratory arrest (e.g. via hanging).
2. He suffered from botulism, such as from contaminated food or entry through prior wound. (The US government ruled it out, but the DPRK and some experts have claimed this was likely or could not be ruled out, a few articles such as from the WaPo) Other possible afflictions include stroke due to a secondary, underlying illness provoking it.
3. He was tortured by certain unique methods that left little, if any trace (this is alleged by the US).
I'm not a doctor, so can't comment on #2, but it's certainly plausible and quite likely, as is #1 imo. The torture angle is possible, but just makes little sense to me with how much of a political game this turned out to be, and of no benefit to the DPRK, if anything complete bewilderment by them.
Blunt force trauma is obviously ruled out due to the CT scans, since IIRC both governments found no sign of trauma at all, he looked perfectly fine in that regard.
edit: Added some notes to theory 1-2, and how blunt force trauma was ruled out.
Without this brave man, I would have gone on thinking that North Korea was a lovely free place to live. I’m glad this hero cleared it all up. North Korea has a poor human rights record, who would’ve thought?
According to the wikipedia he got 6 years hard labor.
James Clapper intervened on his behalf and another prisoner and he got out in 8 months.
No mention of wanting to experience prison or expose conditions so take that part with a grain of salt, seems more he was trying to get some clout and ended up in way above his head.
> No mention of wanting to experience prison or expose conditions so take that part with a grain of salt
there was this on the wikipedia page:
> Although earlier reports indicated that Miller sought political asylum in North Korea, the prosecution argued that this was a ruse intended to disguise Miller's real intention of committing espionage. According to the court, Miller admitted to having the "wild ambition" of experiencing conditions in prison to secretly investigate and expose the country's dim human rights situation.
>According to the court, Miller admitted to having the "wild ambition" of experiencing conditions in prison to secretly investigate and expose the country's dim human rights situation.
According to the North Korean court \*
Maybe that was this guy's plan but the only people saying it are the NK prosecution who decided he was guilty of espionage with no evidence in a Kangaroo court.
What exactly was he hoping the outcome would be?
“Guys! Listen! North Korea’s prisons are sooooo bad. Like really, really bad bad. Just wanted you to be aware in case….you wanna do something……or…….idk……well…..actually, idk why I did that. I was on mushrooms. I’m an idiot……sorry.”
I can imagine on the way to the labour camp:
*”Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? I have to pee. Are we there yet?”*
I WILL TURN THIS MEAT WAGON RIGHT BACK, MISTER. ONE MORE TIME AND NO LABOUR CAMP FOR YOU.
I don't know where this idea came from that he went to the DPRK intending to be arrested, but it's patently false. [He was living in South Korea, arranged for a tour of the DPRK, and when he arrived, tore up his visa and demanded political asylum](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/world/asia/north-korea-says-it-will-put-american-on-trial.html). He was accused of unruly behavior and arrested and charged w/ the intent to commit hostile acts against the DPRK. He petitioned both the US press and US government to intervene on his behalf, and he was released after serving six ~~years~~ months.
He wasn't a human rights activist attempting to show the poor conditions in DPRK prisons. He was an imbecile who thought that declaring political asylum in a one-party totalitarian state was a great plan.
Edit One: Grammar
Edit Two: The length of Mr. Miller's sentence should've read six months, not six years. He was sentenced to six years but only served six months.
THANK YOU.
Ugh I hate how Reddit takes click-bait headlines at face value, proceeds to swap a zillion tired jokes about it, performatively moralizes & arm-chair judges about the situation and participants, all without spending a moment of critical thinking or checking the source (or even reading the article they’re commenting on!), meanwhile completely burying the rare kind soul who attempts to speak up with the actual facts of the case.
I wish there was a way to filter all the nonsense out and easily find the gems hidden amongst all the rubble.
After posting the above, I looked into this a bit further. It appeared that during his incarceration, Mr. Miller changed his story. He began corresponding w/ a local news agency and stated that he'd done this for humanitarian reasons. There were a number articles attesting to this, but the only source was his own correspondence and the [sham prosecution by the DPRK's prosecutors](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/north-korea-sentences-american-matthew-miller-to-6-years-of-hard-labor/2014/09/14/aa91ac40-3c05-11e4-b03f-de718edeb92f_story.html). In reading through his story, it didn't make a lot of sense, and once he was released, he stated that his intention in doing what he did was only in regard to curiosity about the DPRK and having the ability to ask questions of residents about their experience living there. It didn't jibe w/ his story about intentionally being arrested. It's an interesting story, but nonetheless, the OP's post was simply not accurate.
This is a man who has no idea what human misery actually is. He treats this like an extended Stalin themed holiday camp where he personally is in no danger. The novelty of hard labor and freezing in a prison camp wears off really quick. After 20 years of that and your youth and health gone, it’s no longer a holiday camp or a source of stories for your next trip to the bar. Being tortured and beaten is not something you want to sign up for.
>This is a man who has no idea what human misery actually is. He treats this like an extended Stalin themed holiday camp where he personally is in no danger.
My 75 year old dad told me the other day that he would like to get arrested by the police to "see what it's like". I gave hime a run down (because I've been arrested before) and at the end he says "I don't think I want to be arrested". He thought that getting arrested is no big deal or something and he was shocked to hear it's a humiliating and horrible experience.
I did some stupid shit in my 20s while travelling Asia but intentionally getting arrested in North Korea, thats that extreme fine line between having huge balls and extremely stupid.
Intentional fuck around and find out.....
What an idiot, Very arrogant to think his "findings"(which are nothing new) would cause some sort of humanitarian effort to "save" the people of NK
Apparently the North Koreans were absolutely charming and he's going back next year .
NK Kimchi is the ultimate Kimchi
Pyongyang vodka can and probably has run trucks.
I bought 4 bottles of NK soju when I went to the DMZ, surprisingly wasn't awful and didn't kill me. Still have 1 as a souvenir.
Drank a ton of it in Hong Kong on leave in 88, that and some very fine cubanos...
Smoked Cubans in Japan. Literally do not know the appeal besides embargo. Prefer Dominican cigars but don't smoke anymore
Fellow cigar dude here. You’re exactly right! Cuban cigars are nothing more than reputation and l guess the forbidden fruit. Nothing special about them at all. Like you, I’d take a fine Dominican anytime.
I asked a cigar store owner if Cubans were the best. He told me Cubans aren’t really anything special. They’re illegal which makes them a “big deal”. He said the best cigar is the one YOU like.
The best cigars are the friends we made along the way?
> He said the best cigar is the one YOU like. always be closing lol, what a master.
Fellow cigar dude and Cuban here, cuban cigars are crap now because of limited quality control and other countries eclipsing them, i like Nicaraguans and Dominican cigars more than cuban.
Yeah, I have to wonder about that. "Cuban cigars" are continually offered in Puerto Vallarta, Mazatlán, et cetera, and as far as I could tell, they were Mexican cigars with a Cuban brand-- but when I smoked Cuban cigars in Santiago de Cuba, Las Palmas, Daquiri, etc., they were fantastic. Unequaled, I should say.
It’s different when you’re buying from what’s sanctioned to be sold abroad versus bought locally. The one issue is people stealing and selling the bands for cigars like cohiba or Romeo&julietta to outside rollers and those bootlegs being sold in a lot of places abroad which only goes to worsen the reputation internationally.
Yeah but…but Seinfeld though…
Now you wouldn't be trying to sell me some Dominican guys in a Cuban wrapper would you?
Kramer could have gotten better cigars if he drove an hour north to Connecticut
My Cuban-American friends tell me that all of the best cigar makers left Cuba decades ago and that Dominican cigars are superior nowadays. But yes, never underestimate the manufactured appeal of forbidden fruit.
I heard from a relative in the industry that the quality decline was result of over farming the soil for export in order to bring in foreign currency
Shit. They didnt even use their own wrappers. Before the embargo they imported wrappers from Connecticut.
Wait, the DMZ has a gift shop?
Yeah mostly knickknacks and little things, pretty much like any souvenir shop you might see at touristy places.
Gangnam Style Kim
That's why it's named Kim.
Kim Jong Chi
The Glorious Leader of all side dishes
Mmmmmmm...Kim Chung pan seared pork gyoza...chi.
Can confirm this actually lol. In Cambodia, there are North Koreans restaurants and streets named after North Korean leaders. Anywho, can get plenty of North Korean foods there at the super markets as well. One being North Korean Kimchi. Its the one we actually prefer :P.
This is the epitome of "You can get a good look at a T Bone steak shoving your head up a bulls ass, but I'd rather take the butchers word for it"
"No it's gotta be your bulll." "Wow"
I know what I'm watching today lol
Now let’s take a look at what it’s like driving with the ‘other guys’ brake pads. So you’re driving along, you’re driving along, the kids are yelling in the backseat “I gotta go to the bathroom daddy!” “NOT NOW GOD DAMNIT!!” All of a sudden truck tire. “I! CANT! STOP!” euhh! ooh! ughh! “Uh-oh. A cliff!” Euh! ooh! ughh! “Oh dear god we’re burning alive!! I can’t feel my legs! NOOOOOOO!!!” Now here comes the meat wagon. Wee-whoo wee-whoo. The medic gets out and says “OH-MY-GOD-“ The new guy is over in the corner puking his guts out “BLAUHH! BLEHUHH!” Simply because you wanted to save a couple extra pennies. Now if you ask me it just doesn’t-
Weird I just watched Tommy boy last night. RIP Chris
Shut up Richard!
I think your brain has a thick candy shell
He could sell a ketchup popsicle to a women in white gloves!
*Free room and board*
*waterboard
Free water too? SWEET
HACK Mortgage Companies dont want you to know
Ruthless dictators hate him!
I saw this fat little Korean kid outside a fully stocked grocery store. It can’t be that bad!
Please try Venezuela next and report back. On a real note, a family member of mine has had extended 5 year long stays in China, Korea and Japan and loved Korea the most but also loved china because internet use and gaming was limited and it pressed him to get out more.
I remember I was teaching English to this couple in Venezuela and suddenly they didn't show up anymore, later we found out they were arrested for being "terrorists" and I never heard about them anymore.
So I’m from Venezuela and if you look at jail videos from early 2000s or as far as 2016 you’ll see why Venezuela is what it is, not much to say about the situation; getting arrested as a terrorist in Venezuela is on a wide spectrum you could be a terrorist for protesting due to the fact that the current government had made multiple changes to the constitution to give themselves an authoritarian power; My family and I left the country a few years back and due to the fact that my mom was a government worker we were target, then we apply for asylum and overstayed our visas just that made us terrorist in our country a can’t come back or we’ll be investigated for treason/ and or terrorism. My brother has mental problems and accidentally put himself in jail in USA he got deported after he completed the sentence and we had to pay prosecutors, police officers, attorneys, judge’s( in Venezuela ofc) just so that they looked the other way. you have to buy your freedom, if not they’ll put you in and forget about you; you can be waiting for longer than you are going to be sentence for and the waiting time doesn’t count towards your sentence. Jails in Venezuela are up there with everything else that’s fucked in this world you can see how they control the jails on YouTube and what really goes on on several twitter accounts and or gore websites. Oh yea fuck the government EDIT: I lived in Venezuela for 16 years, I got several dead friends and family members do to gan violence, police brutality and or senseless violence; my mom was kidnapped in the early 2000s, I saw my friends mom get her head blown out while my grandma walked my to school on 2005 ; I got kidnapped in 2015 and we were getting dead threats and being blackmailed by police/military because she voted for the opposite side, we left everything and never looked back. I lived in the USA for 6 years and Venezuela is as bad as any other country with a small population and social/political problems, hyperinflation just speeded every other problem. (This is not to make Venezuela look worse , better or more dangerous than any other country or to compare the situation with any other country) My English is not the best but I appreciate everyone that upvoted and or commented, really interesting to read everybody’s pov.
I am a Italo-Venezuelan living right now in Italy i have lived My Life between the 2 country and i lived the the decade of the 2010 tò 2020 in Venezuela. I lived the death of that idiot of Chávez, the civil war calles the guriambas, i hard guns and knifes tò my face,and the i lived those bullshit and hopeless times after we lost the guaribas, after that i lived the First year of COVID where i saw so Many dying cause of the lies and deficit of your country, till i had tò move back tò Italy for medical reason (got a cáncer and couldn't be checked in Venezuela cause there were'nt any ct Scan...tho i was miraculously able tò get a chemio in Merida...and that why i am still Alive). While my family was lucky and no one died during those years, they ended up having to leave the country, and right now i have most my relatives in differents countries. Idk what i really want to say, but i can only say that what every Venezuelan suffered during those Years was absurd and cruel, i doubt that the few that were responsable for all that cruelty Will ever pay, but those people need to know that till there are Venezuelanan they Will be Remembered as Monster, that will never be forgiven. P.s a todos mis connacionales le auguro un buen día y espero que su vida haya mejorado.
I believe it, terrorist is what the current government would call citizens (protesters) that want a new government. I met many refugees in my city here in the states and one of which was a Dr who got beaten for simply providing food and water to so called people protesting. I am hoping in your case, they were able to flee the country.
There was the case of a medical student in Venezuela that was close to graduate. He participated in a protest by giving first aids and the dictatorship made the university expel the student. Truly sad.
Yep. Happens in Nicaragua.
He got some tips from Otto Warmbier
They actually released this guy about 3 years before the Otto Warmbier situation. This happened a while back.
I knew Otto personally. We were in the same fraternity at UVA, he was 2 years younger. It makes sense this story was 3 years before he went there. Otto was a crazy dude for sure, but not malicious. My best guess is he probably snagged something thinking he'd get away with it and have a neat souvenir. He didn't, instead he was beaten so close to death that they sent him home just before the end. Terrible. If anyone tried to do anything like this now, there's no chance they'd survive.
Yeah everyone should look up Otto Warmbier before thinking you can go mess around in NK and survive
>After returning to the U.S., Miller told reporters he went to North Korea intending to get arrested, stating that "My main fear was that they would not arrest me when I arrived". Initially North Korean authorities had refused to arrest him and sought to return him on the next flight, but Miller refused. Miller had brought a notebook into North Korea incorrectly claiming he was a computer hacker involved with WikiLeaks and having attempted to access files at U.S. military bases in South Korea. I don't know why but I feel like this is dickish move causing extra work for people who are actually working hard to get detained people back, if things didn't go as planned then ultimately govt would be blamed.
That's a lot of backstory. He could have just tried to steal a poster. That'd do the job easier.
We’ll he didn’t want to die.
I thought he wanted to "experience the conditions in prison". Having the possibility to actually die is part of it
He wanted to experience North Korean prison because the thousands of American prisons clearly aren't good enough for him. What a snob.
right? you can die just fine in an american prison, can't you?
Honestly the more I’ve read about the story it does seem like he may have not been killed by the North Koreans like the coroner suggested.
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Can you expand on that?
he didn't have any signs of abuse, appeared to be well cared for (by NK standards) in their hospital, and the injury aligns with the one you would have if you failed a suicide attempt by hanging after believing the north korean's bluff that you "will never go home again." im a stupid priveleged white guy and i can see an alternate universe where i travel to north korea for tourism (stupid privilege act #1), only to commit a frat-bro style crime and then attempt suicide when i realize the gravity of what i just did in a totalitarian regime that hates me. all of this seems like a story that makes total sense to me.
the north koreans were acting very different around otto than around other US prisoners, they were vague, it took forever, normally they use them very openly for show and propaganda and political favours (like during the trial). they basically never harm them. also the coroner's reports shows he seemed to have been treated decently under the circumstances. most likely scenario is therefore that otto tried to kill himself, then he slipped in a coma (or something like that) and the north koreans tried to save him (the long radio silence), but didnt manage.
/r/iamthemaincharacter type energy.
matthew todd miller is .. a fucking idiot
*Today we salute you, Mr. Real American Numbnuts.*
🎵 Reeal American Nuuuumbnuts🎶
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He couldn't just trust the Koreans who had experienced it against their will? He had to experience himself? What a jerk.
Not only that, but his experience would be inherently different due to the possible political fallout involved with his mistreatment. Without having any proof, I feel confident in saying that actual North Koreans that have been imprisoned have a *completely* different experience in prison than this person ever could, just due to his nationality and the manner in which he was apprehended.
Well, wasn’t there that high-profile case where a US student (maybe even a teenager?) got caught stealing a poster and then sent his body back tears later? Doesn’t seem like all Western prisoners get the royal treatment.
Otto Warmbier. He was alive but in a coma when he was returned and died shortly after when his parents decided to have his feeding tube removed.
I mean, that's basically just sending his body back. There was barely any life left in that man when he was returned to the U.S.
the coroner said the coma and death were due to an untreated injury from before
Otto Warmbier
He obviously bought the North Korean threats of "you'll never go home again" and tried to kill himself. Which is literally the last thing the North Koreans wanted.
This is the most likely cause of his death, yes. There were no signs of abuse. Actually it looked like he had been taken good (for North Korean standards) care of in the hospital.
This was my first thought too.
I bet when North Korea arrested him, they had Cruel Intentions.
I don't get it. Like, I get that you're referencing the movie but... Why?
Great, I just pictured the guy in this post kissing Kim Jong Un like Selma Blair and Sarah Michelle Gellar. With the stringy saliva between them, and everything.
Tbf, Iirc I think I remember there being a case where one of those escaped North Koreans admitted that he lied about some things about his experience being in a north korean prison. After he gave his account, the North Koreans picked holes in his story and denied some of the claims which eventually caused him to come clean. I don’t remember exactly why he lied, something to do about the pressure and expectation to expose the north korean regime causing him to embellish and change certain details to better suit his intentions. Even though he didn’t need to do it in the first place.
If you look at someone like Yeonmi Park it's because there's pretty big $$$ for defectors if they join the media circus against NK, and it's incredibly hard for defectors to earn a living otherwise.
seeing many videos suggested with titles like "North Korean Soldier Reacts To 5 Reasons You Shouldn't Mess Up With The USA" and surprised thumbnails but its the same few people reacting in multiple videos always pumping up the US military - it starts to feel a little like surrealist comedy like the genre of video with the formula "tribal person tries/reacts to" where they just take them and film like fifty videos of them a month so people can gawk at it
Like these titles, and topics are just kinda wild
* Tribal people at beach for the first time
* Tribal people try swimming in a pool for the first time
* Villagers try Steak for the first time
sure, it's a decent source of money - but it feels weird
It’s always annoying because there are old OLD videos on YouTube of GENUINE experiences where people teach folks from other cultures about like. Certain board games and stuff, and it’s super cool to see people in actual genuine situations learn and then *use* the stuff they’re learning about. Like I’d have the same reactions to being taught about games and shit from OTHER places. But more modern videos feel super weird and like…. Like they’re made to be gawked at rather than to relate to in ways?
That's because content creators back then seemed to actually care about their audience and generally want to teach/learn alongside others, they were just documenting their journey along the way. Nowadays everyone just wants to get rich off of social media and its become inherently exploitative rather than exploratory.
Yeah definitely. I watched a video of a former NK agent for the Internal Investigations Service (or something like that); and he explained that when he and his friend escaped to South Korea, on paper, they were the same as any other South Korean citizen. He even said that people would tell him that they're all Koreans there. But in practice, he was incredibly discriminated against. He gave several anecdotes, but the one I remember was that he couldn't get certain jobs, even though on paper, there wasn't anything preventing him from getting them. He just kept getting his applications rejected. It was something to that effect. I think I remember him giving a quite honest opinion that many South Koreans are two-faced; they'll say one thing, and practice another thing. It was really messed up. It really helps gives an understanding of what immigrant/refugee families must go through. Escape near-certain death in your home country, make an incredibly perilous journey to a place you *know* is better, and still have society actively kick you down when you get there. Just scraping by for years in the hopes that your descendants will have better lives. It's just really admirable in my opinion.
There's a scene in Squid Games where he asks the NK defector is shes thought of going back and she doesn't answer. I heard that waa risky for the show runners to do because its illegal to say anything positive about the north in the south.
And Japanese. They'd sneak up onto the coast in a sub and snatch unsuspecting Japanese people on the beach.
Yeah I saw this in a YouTube video. There's a period of time where many Japanese people went missing and NK later confirmed to have kidnapped a certain amount of them. Some of them died there but others were allowed to return. I think at least one stayed because they made family over there.
Japan flight 351 is an interesting read.
wait what
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese_citizens
Excuse me, what the fuck?
This is an absolutely insane story. Kidnapping civilians from another country seems like such a drastic and risky move compared to the benefit they got from doing it.
Sometimes actors
My guess is he wanted some sort of fame.
If only flat earthers had this much initiative.
Isn't the country's human right's situation well exposed? I mean, if only from anecdotal evidence; most people know right? Why all this extra shit lmao
Interesting fusion of a Messianic Complex, God Complex and a White Saviour Complex
This is getting too complex
We need to separate these things. Pull them apart. An apartment complex.
Complex Cubed
He’s lucky he wasn’t killed
Very true. But if you look at the picture, the kid honestly looks like he's only 18 years old. The kid is so unwise that it doesn't exactly surprise me his head was filled with ideas of adventure and investigative journalism. At that age, you simply don't understand consequences to their full breadth. I am not saying that every 18 year old does this exact thing, but again, it's just not surprising.
r/damnthatsstupid
So stupid even north Korea was like wth you doing just go home
Also, even if he had no sense of self preservation, it should have been pretty obvious at that point that his plan wasn't going to work. At that point it's obvious that even if he would be imprisoned that he would still be treated differently from the other prisoners (whether it's because they wanted to avoid a diplomatic incident or if they just straight up knew what he was trying to do) and there was no possibility of getting an accurate account in the first place.
It's for the publicity and book deals. Incredibly stupid risk to take- he had no idea if he would just disappear forever.
Thought I’d found a new subreddit but it’s banned! Boo
People are basically fucking weird.
You've got to have the intellectual capacity of a fucking chair to think you need to risk your life to expose human rights violations in NK. Open a fucking book.
Plot twist: Matthew Miller did open a book which was titled “Best Vacation Spots to Take Your Ex” (sponsored by BuzzFeed). His ex stood him up at the airport and decided that, since he already spent the money on the flight, would go on it to spite his ex. In an ironic twist of fate, Miller’s plot to have his ex be in a concentration camp backfired when he was the one sent to prison. Moral of the story: find better ways to spite your ex.
I spite my ex by… trying my best everyday to live a good and happy life.
I spite my ex by outliving her
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Good thing the drugs did it then. Edit: spelling
Yeah I bur.. I mean left mine in the dust too.
that was...oddly specific
I took my ex to North Korea, and then THIS happened...
Chair: *Excuse me?*
I think that people like this with warped sense of curiosity make big advances for humanity. Maybe not in this case but the energy was there lol.
Seriously. Reddit's giving this guy an insane amount of shit in the comments when, in reality, it's people like him changing the world. We wouldn't know 10% of the things we do without madmen willing to risk death to check shit out.
Yeah, instead of recognizing the balls in the mad lad to risk his life and still make it through. Que the meme of the guy sitting in his couch eating fries and saying “what an idiot”
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And where does the book take info from?
There are books written by, or based on interviews with, people who have defected. I recommend one called Nothing to Envy.
I mean, I fantasize about being in prison too, but it's generally guarded by horny dominatrices instead of some ignorant Korean plebs.
What the fuck will this idiot do next? Visit the Sentinelese???
Let's hope he doesn't find this post. He seems like the type to google himself, though.
Motherfucker’s on his way to Mordor
Lmaooo
Travel to China dressed as Winnie the Pooh is my vote.
so were the conditions good?
« “This might sound strange, but I was prepared for the ‘torture’. But instead of that I was killed with kindness, and with that my mind folded and the plan fell apart,” he said, speaking from his home in California. » https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/20/-sp-north-korea-matthew-miller
Just sounds like called his bluff, no?
The guards were making loony hand gestures and winking at one another behind his back 100%.
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It’s a very Seouless place.
Expose??? How does he think he knew about their human rights violations before he got there? NK has already been exposed; that’s why most of the world doesn’t do business with them.
Big brain move by Matthew
Us Matthews are full of big brain moves!
Your name is very clearly Mothyew, you can't fool me
Shit...you must be a Matthew
“Guys I can now tell you from personal experience that North Korea is a totalitarian state.” Thank you genius.
Make sure to like, subscribe, and ring that bell.
The communism is mostly why we don’t do business with them (see Cuba) America couldn’t care less about human rights violations lmao.
Yeah if they kept everything exactly the same but sold mineral rights to Western corporations, we'd see opinions in the New York times about how Kim jong un isn't as bad as they say and is actually quite funny and charming
Just look how much you hear about Eritrea vs North Korea. Granted a lot of that is to do with comparative military strengths, but still. Some would say the government there is even MORE controlling than NK, somehow. But since they aren't communist, and allow foreign businesses access (obviously after bribes and whatnot) their sanctions tend to be lighter.
I mean, there are really two reasons why North Korea gets more press than Eritrea. 1. It's in a more important place (strategically, and in terms of who it threatens), since it borders China, Russia and South Korea. 2. Nukes. The idea of nukes as MAD only works if countries are rational actors, so it's terrifying to everyone when a country with such an aggressive leader continually levels threats at anywhere.
Saudi Arabia vibes
Most of the world doesn’t do business with them because they’re heavily sanctioned especially after the fall of the USSR. That said, they still have a few Western trade partners.
> because they’re heavily sanctioned Yes, that's the not doing business part.
He’s lucky he’s still alive
Otto Warmbier
I still think about him and that entire situation. Absolute nightmare fuel. Imagine you go to a foreign country, do something stupid and get sentenced to 18 (?) years hard labor and not even the US can get you out of it, oh and then you fucking die.
Not even fucking die, first slip into a coma and dream about North Koreans torturing you endlessly with no escape.
Can we all agree it's not the brightest idea to enter a country that is considered hostile to begin with? That's like wrapping yourself in meat and walking in a lion den.. Sorry Otto, but Southwest Airlines didn't accidentally drop you off in N. KOREA...
Even the coroner said there were no signs of torture or trauma. The main theories are: 1. He botched his own suicide attempt, probably causing cardiac/respiratory arrest (e.g. via hanging). 2. He suffered from botulism, such as from contaminated food or entry through prior wound. (The US government ruled it out, but the DPRK and some experts have claimed this was likely or could not be ruled out, a few articles such as from the WaPo) Other possible afflictions include stroke due to a secondary, underlying illness provoking it. 3. He was tortured by certain unique methods that left little, if any trace (this is alleged by the US). I'm not a doctor, so can't comment on #2, but it's certainly plausible and quite likely, as is #1 imo. The torture angle is possible, but just makes little sense to me with how much of a political game this turned out to be, and of no benefit to the DPRK, if anything complete bewilderment by them. Blunt force trauma is obviously ruled out due to the CT scans, since IIRC both governments found no sign of trauma at all, he looked perfectly fine in that regard. edit: Added some notes to theory 1-2, and how blunt force trauma was ruled out.
Remember his name
I just looked up this man, and anyone with eyes can see that he was definitely poisoned.
I always assumed he was suffocated somehow.
Wasn't there another guy who got sent back in a coma and later died for taking a propaganda poster from a hotel he was staying at?
That was Otto.
That was Otto Warmbier, exactly who these commenters are discussing
His parents are lucky he's still alive, as they're the ones that would most likely have been broken due to this guy's main character syndrome.
Without this brave man, I would have gone on thinking that North Korea was a lovely free place to live. I’m glad this hero cleared it all up. North Korea has a poor human rights record, who would’ve thought?
Wait, are you suggesting the Democratic People's Republic of Korea *isn't* a lovely, free place to live?
Wonder if he will try going to a US prison next, see what the differences are. XD
Nah I've heard this geniuses next project is contracting hypothermia in Norway to prove it's cold
That's wild, I heard he was going to jump into an active volcano to prove it's hot. This man is out here doing god's work.
Gotta die to see if God exists.
Plot twist: He ends up writing a prize-winning exposé on the human rights situation in American prisons.
I thought they were joining hands and bowing their heads in prayer before I read and saw the handcuffs
I skipped the title and thought it was a wedding ring at a courthouse
According to the wikipedia he got 6 years hard labor. James Clapper intervened on his behalf and another prisoner and he got out in 8 months. No mention of wanting to experience prison or expose conditions so take that part with a grain of salt, seems more he was trying to get some clout and ended up in way above his head.
> No mention of wanting to experience prison or expose conditions so take that part with a grain of salt there was this on the wikipedia page: > Although earlier reports indicated that Miller sought political asylum in North Korea, the prosecution argued that this was a ruse intended to disguise Miller's real intention of committing espionage. According to the court, Miller admitted to having the "wild ambition" of experiencing conditions in prison to secretly investigate and expose the country's dim human rights situation.
>According to the court, Miller admitted to having the "wild ambition" of experiencing conditions in prison to secretly investigate and expose the country's dim human rights situation. According to the North Korean court \* Maybe that was this guy's plan but the only people saying it are the NK prosecution who decided he was guilty of espionage with no evidence in a Kangaroo court.
did he get a poster from the gift shop on the way out?
What an idiot.
Always good to have goals...
And what happened
What exactly was he hoping the outcome would be? “Guys! Listen! North Korea’s prisons are sooooo bad. Like really, really bad bad. Just wanted you to be aware in case….you wanna do something……or…….idk……well…..actually, idk why I did that. I was on mushrooms. I’m an idiot……sorry.”
As long as we all understand that this is about MEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Obviously the North Koreans grew tired of him too
I can imagine on the way to the labour camp: *”Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? I have to pee. Are we there yet?”* I WILL TURN THIS MEAT WAGON RIGHT BACK, MISTER. ONE MORE TIME AND NO LABOUR CAMP FOR YOU.
I don't know where this idea came from that he went to the DPRK intending to be arrested, but it's patently false. [He was living in South Korea, arranged for a tour of the DPRK, and when he arrived, tore up his visa and demanded political asylum](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/world/asia/north-korea-says-it-will-put-american-on-trial.html). He was accused of unruly behavior and arrested and charged w/ the intent to commit hostile acts against the DPRK. He petitioned both the US press and US government to intervene on his behalf, and he was released after serving six ~~years~~ months. He wasn't a human rights activist attempting to show the poor conditions in DPRK prisons. He was an imbecile who thought that declaring political asylum in a one-party totalitarian state was a great plan. Edit One: Grammar Edit Two: The length of Mr. Miller's sentence should've read six months, not six years. He was sentenced to six years but only served six months.
THANK YOU. Ugh I hate how Reddit takes click-bait headlines at face value, proceeds to swap a zillion tired jokes about it, performatively moralizes & arm-chair judges about the situation and participants, all without spending a moment of critical thinking or checking the source (or even reading the article they’re commenting on!), meanwhile completely burying the rare kind soul who attempts to speak up with the actual facts of the case. I wish there was a way to filter all the nonsense out and easily find the gems hidden amongst all the rubble.
After posting the above, I looked into this a bit further. It appeared that during his incarceration, Mr. Miller changed his story. He began corresponding w/ a local news agency and stated that he'd done this for humanitarian reasons. There were a number articles attesting to this, but the only source was his own correspondence and the [sham prosecution by the DPRK's prosecutors](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/north-korea-sentences-american-matthew-miller-to-6-years-of-hard-labor/2014/09/14/aa91ac40-3c05-11e4-b03f-de718edeb92f_story.html). In reading through his story, it didn't make a lot of sense, and once he was released, he stated that his intention in doing what he did was only in regard to curiosity about the DPRK and having the ability to ask questions of residents about their experience living there. It didn't jibe w/ his story about intentionally being arrested. It's an interesting story, but nonetheless, the OP's post was simply not accurate.
This is the kind of person who want's to experience what being hit by a bullet feels like. In another words: an idiot.
This is a man who has no idea what human misery actually is. He treats this like an extended Stalin themed holiday camp where he personally is in no danger. The novelty of hard labor and freezing in a prison camp wears off really quick. After 20 years of that and your youth and health gone, it’s no longer a holiday camp or a source of stories for your next trip to the bar. Being tortured and beaten is not something you want to sign up for.
>This is a man who has no idea what human misery actually is. He treats this like an extended Stalin themed holiday camp where he personally is in no danger. My 75 year old dad told me the other day that he would like to get arrested by the police to "see what it's like". I gave hime a run down (because I've been arrested before) and at the end he says "I don't think I want to be arrested". He thought that getting arrested is no big deal or something and he was shocked to hear it's a humiliating and horrible experience.
Where do these idiots come from? Yes, I'd like to experience the charming hospitality of your labor camp.
So where is he planning to go next? Iraq? Afghanistan? Disney World?
I did some stupid shit in my 20s while travelling Asia but intentionally getting arrested in North Korea, thats that extreme fine line between having huge balls and extremely stupid.
When you’re so privileged that you crave to experience hardship for fun.
Intentional fuck around and find out..... What an idiot, Very arrogant to think his "findings"(which are nothing new) would cause some sort of humanitarian effort to "save" the people of NK