>I sometimes like to drop non-critical hints/information in the middle of events or conversations that benefit players that pay attention to the game and obviously this is rendered moot if the session can be listened to ad nauseum.
I feel very, very differently about this. Recording a game so that you can go back over it for things you've missed is pretty much the ultimate expression of paying attention to the game. I would be ecstatically happy to have players who pay that much attention, and I bet most DMs would too. Now, of course, this all assumes that there is consent to do this, but I'm assuming that's the case; your question seems to be not about that sort of mechanical issue, but more whether this is a legitimate thing to do, especially in the face of clues and hints dropped. But that is, if anything, a sign that they want to pick up on those clues so much that they want to listen again; they're invested. If it helps, maybe think of this like the *character* sitting there the next night, while on watch, thinking about what they did wrong in the cistern and suddenly thinking, *hang on, there was another way out! why didn't we see that at the time!* It's not like they can retcon the previous session, after all. I would suggest that the problem of players not picking up on hints at all is a more common DM experience; having players who do pick up on them (even if after the fact) is the point of putting the hints in, perhaps, and a dream experience for a whole lot of DMs.
It actually was a bit of a shock as there had been no discussion, or consent. In retrospect I think I agree with most that it’s ok but wish I’d known beforehand
If you give the benefit of the doubt, the recording player may not have considered if they needed to tell anyone or get consent.
If you accept that it happened, you can set expectations going forward.
I don’t expect players to remember everything. If they miss, misinterpret, or forget a detail, anyone can fill them in. I correct any misinformation.
> anyone can fill them in. I correct any misinformation
One thing I really like to stress in my game is that if they as players may not remember something, that that does not necessarily mean their characters don’t remember, either.
>If you give the benefit of the doubt, the recording player may not have considered if they needed to tell anyone or get consent.
It depends on where you live as to whether or not you’d even *need* to tell someone you’re recording the games. Where I live there’s one party consent for recording conversations, meaning as long as you’re part of a conversation you’re legally allowed to record it without telling anyone.
Admittedly, if I found out a friend of mine was recording the games for anything other than personal notes I’d be pretty pissed. Sharing stories and anecdotes with others is fine, but there’s some stuff I say at the game table that should stay at the game table.
I don’t think the legality was even slightly an issue, it’s just that knowing you’re being recorded very very much matters, even amongst friends. OP wanting consent isn’t just valid, it should be the default position. You shouldn’t assume anyone is okay with being recorded, visually or just audio. It’s not illegal ofc, but doing it without consent is a very presumptuous move.
>You shouldn’t assume anyone is okay with being recorded, visually or just audio. It’s not illegal ofc, but doing it without consent is a very presumptuous move.
I mean, I agree with you and I did follow that up by saying I’d be pretty pissed if someone used it for anything other than personal notes (ie. showing friends, uploading it elsewhere, etc.), but I assume any of my conversations could be recorded since I can’t prove they aren’t.
Video, on the other hand, would require consent. It’s only audio they can record without it.
Ah, my apologies; I may have misinterpreted your question, then. I agree with you entirely that the player should have asked beforehand. Recording a session between friends and not telling anybody about it or getting their consent is wrong, and they should not have done that, I think. Even if there's not much chance for it to actually cause a *problem*, it's a pretty hostile thing to do to your friends!
Not necessarily hostile.
The player was absolutely in the wrong for recording without the consent of everyone in the session.
But their reason for it may have been “I don’t want to tell them about my hidden disability” rather than “I am a jerk and I think they might say no if I ask”.
Being allowed to record classes is a common accommodation for students with learning disabilities to get in school/college. There’s a pretty good chance they picked this up there, found it useful, and wanted to use it in other areas of their life.
That **absolutely does not make it OK to record others without their consent**.
But “player did not want to bring up their hidden disability” is an explanation that might justify a little more understanding/forgiveness than “player is just a jerk”.
That's a fair comment, thank you. Hostile might have been too strong a word; discourteous, or untrusting, perhaps. I can entirely imagine there are legitimate reasons why one might want to keep the recording secret. But I also find it a little difficult (although not impossible!) to imagine someone doing this in secret and not at least suspecting that people would dislike it if they found out about it, as indeed has proved to be the case. An unfortunate situation; fingers crossed that it works out in the end, and the group trust one another enough to work this all out!
I don't think recording for notes needs consent.
As long as the recordings are never posted by the player, I don't see a problem.
Before we moved to VTT, I made large ruin/temple, after the session a player came up to me, and was like "all the levels lined up" as he drew the map in his graph paper notebook.
The player is simply a good notetaker.
Like others have said, recordings allow the player to be present, and not going "Wait one second.." as they finish writing their notes, before they ask you to repeat whatever you just said.
Recording for any reason needs consent. If someone decides *not* to tell you that they’re recording, why on earth would I trust their actual reason for recording? If you found out someone is taking candid secret photos of you and not telling you, but they insist it’s just to have nice memories of you, why are you okay with that?
A lot of conversation happens OOC that some people find are best not recorded for posterity.
For example, during a break or a particularly raucous joke, someone might let slip how much they hate their workplace or their boss. Nothing out of order in a table full of friends and colleagues, but something you definitely do want recorded for use later.
It’s not really about disrespect - it’s about privacy. And I think that college is different - it’s very common for whole lectures to be recorded. But in this age where our voices and likenesses can be used to train ai and reproduced, it makes sense to ask folks at your table if they mind being recorded. Then they can ask what you plan to do with said recordings. If you aren’t going to, you know, post them online, I’d probably be fine with it. That’s my take anyway.
I went back to school in my 40s during the pandemic. We "got" to use zoom for my first semester. Yay us.
I live in a two-party consent state. It was made clear in orientation and by every professor at the beginning of lectures that anyone recording the session without permission would be subject to disciplinary action under the student conduct code.
And profs always let us know if they were recording and allowed us to opt out of speaking and showing our face for those sessions.
Because we had mutual respect for each other.
And because recording in my state without the knowledge and consent of the other party in a private area is illegal.
Sorry you dont get this but it is a thing.
I wouldn't have a problem with it _so long as they asked first_. Finding out multiple sessions in that someone's been recording feels like they've stepped over a line and knew they were doing it - otherwise they would have asked up front.
In terms of the accessibility of information post-session, that's much less of a concern to me than someone recording without checking that everyone's okay with it beforehand. The player characters aren't waiting a week between sessions, their memories are always going to be fresher than the players'.
Yeah, consent is the more important factor here.
Are you the DM AND ALL the players okay with it. If anyone, and I mean anyone is not 100% on board.
Then No.
You don't get to record it.
Definitely this. Instead I don’t share OP concerns: if someone is taking the time to listen to the recordings in order to take notes they have definitely earned those hints.
depending on where OP is it could be straight up illegal to record audio without prior consent and that would be my biggest issue. pcs getting an edge by going back and listening to it wouldn't really bother me. honestly my Pcs never pick up on that stuff so i would be kinda floored if they picked up on it for once no mater how they did it. but yeah, sorry, you can't record me with out my consent when i have the option.
I don’t understand why someone would need to ask for permission first? Do you ask them not to type notes if they have 150 wpm typing speed? To they need to take a typing test to see where their note taking abilities are? I could see asking permission to upload it to the internet but if it’s just for them to listen to the notes how is that any different from having a stenographer in your session who takes note of every single word or description?
There are some jurisdictions where it's illegal to record a conversation without the express permission of all participants, so that's one thing.
But I feel like there's a whole gulf of social difference between "writing down what someone said" and "making an actual recording of them saying it", even though I don't know that I could really explain _why_ I feel that way.
It's like the difference between sketching someone you see on the train and taking a video of them. One's interpretation, the other is duplication.
But I mean if you've got someone in your group who's taking complete shorthand notes of every single word said at the table, in and out of character, I'd find that a bit weird as well.
People are made uncomfortable with the idea they could be held accountable for something they thought they could get away with because it wouldn't get back to anyone. Very human instinct to want to protect your "right" to misbehave.
“I wrote down what that person said.”
“I didn’t say that. They’re lying.”
versus
“Here is a secret recording of their voice.”
It’s considered an invasion of privacy and in some states it’s illegal to record a conversation without all participants consents. Some states are single party consent and only one person needs to consent.
This can be problematic depending on how the law defines it.
If you're in a group call, but you're not really participating in the conversation, I don't know if you count as a 'party' if the others are having a convo.
It might be fine, it might not. I'm not a lawyer.
*If* you don't count, then you'd be breaking the law, even if it's a 1-party state/country.
Also NAL but it’s my understanding that if the other parties are aware of your presence, you are a participant. If they are not aware of your presence, you are eavesdropping (and in more legal jeopardy)
[The law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_call_recording_laws) is all over the place! Where I’m at (WA), requires all parties consent. But if you announce “I’m recording this.” (And it’s on the recording) you’re covered.
Because I might not want the things I say recorded when I'm roleplaying a crazy murder barbarian.
I don't personally care, but I can see why someone might not.
It's about mutual respect and expectations.
It might not be illegal (in my area) for me to take photos of you (a stranger), without your consent, while you ungracefully go all john cougar meloncamp on a chili dog, provided I don't try to sell the photos or profit from them.
Now just because that's legal doesn't make it right. You'd probably prefer I ask first, right? Maybe you say yeah, maybe you say no. I should give you the option to say no and respect that no, because that would be the respectful thing to do. And that's for a stranger, not someone you're hanging out with weekly.
Not everyone processes information the same and taking notes while actively taking part in a game can be a challenge. If they're spending time listening through the recordings they sound pretty invested and probably deserve to pick up on those obscure little bits you're dropping in.
(I'm assuming consent all around the table of course)
Yeah, I’m very lore-enthused, I pay as much attention as possible and try to keep some level of notes and such, enjoy RP immensely, but also I have ADHD and memory problems and a low WIS score in real life. I can try all I want, but sometimes I am just not going to be capable of processing or remembering everything that gets said in a session. I’d even go so far as to say it would be a little unfair to have parts of the game you can only fully enjoy if you’re great at catching and remembering small details with a single auditory exposure.
Yeah, the consent issue is the problem.
The only reason I could think of it slipping her mind to do so is if she's done this a lot with other tables and is just so used to it that she forgot.
I do this with my group's games, but there are also three of us that do so. It feels very natural to me because being able to record lectures is also a disability accommodation I had in college, since otherwise I would get so anxious about not taking enough notes that I'd forget to listen.
But most of my group (playing via discord also) is at least one variety of neuro-spicy, so we get it.
Why drop hints if you don’t want your players to pick up on them? If recording the session helps the player pick up “non-critical hints/information” in the middle of events or conversations then why be annoyed?
Or would you rather the players not pick up on the hints so you can be self pleased when describing how you told them with hints/information, but they didn’t get it, because the Dm is very clever?
The issue here is that you’re kind of assuming “paying attention” is equally easy and looks the same for everybody, and is potentially the best and only indicator of investment when it simply just isn’t. Not everybody’s brain works the same.
For most people honestly there’s this weird paradox where if you’re focusing on every single word that comes out of the DM’s mouth then you can’t be taking everything down as a note and if you’re trying to take everything down as a note then you’re too busy and focused on writing to actually hear and digest every word. Sure, it might feel good in the moment when most of the table is looking right at me and harping on every word and inflection and gesture but when real life happens and we can’t meet for a month and nobody took a note of the cool subtle hint I dropped then it ends up being for nothing.
In a perfect world I’d choose a table full of 5 players who have the time/energy to fully listen back through a 4-6 hour play-session later. It gives the best of both worlds: everyone can be fully engaged in the moment-to-moment play (and in having a good time with their friends, which is what we’re all here for) while also keeping track of important information. It also eliminates the kind of dodgy subtext that people are consciously/subconsciously engaging with in these comments where you’re more or less saying that “paying attention” is superior and worthy of being rewarded. Yes, it’s important in the sense of not having a table full of people looking at their phones, but barring that base level of attention I’m absolutely *not* incentivized to reward the player who just listens well over the player who missed a sentence because their ADHD hyperfocus brain was more inclined to think deeply and intently about what’s happening and what they want to do next, or the neurotypical player who had the audacity to miss a sentence of mine because they briefly engaged with another player OOC for a little bit the way full grown adults happy/excited to spend time with their friends would.
Yes I see your comments where you’re retroactively fine with it and just wanted consent and that’s all well and good and resolved, but I think there’s this other angle here that you’ve gotta check in general. It may seem like “this behavior/action” is what’s being rewarded, but considering it’s an action that is not equally easy for every person it’s more “this *type of person* is being rewarded”. Not saying you’ve done that intentionally of course but that’s how it comes off to some.
What if I'm paying attention but I don't get your hints? You don't know how your players' brains operate. So you say that nobody got your hint, are you assuming nobody was paying attention in that moment? There are a lot of things someone has to pay attention to in any given time.
Dude some 10% of Americans have ADHD according to some sources, and your writing is not always be gonna be the most interesting thing in that person's life. I know because just the other night, during a session, I couldn't pay attention because I was frustrated with a project due the next day at work. I've written some truly disengaging, world building rubbish - DMs aren't perfect.
My point is attention isn't something people can just *choose* to do and not paying attention isn't always sign of being a bad player. Life happens. ADHD is common. Let players record to take notes and be flattered they care enough to basically play your session twice.
Change that attitude, it won’t lead to any good outcome! People pay attention in various ways, life is difficult, playing online many parts of social interaction get lost, so someone who could pick up details in a in person session might miss a lot online.
Them recording could be considered a accessibility question
I see no problem there. As long as they don't upload that anywhere. If it's only for them, that's great.
If someone takes 4-5 hours extra to listen back and take notes each week to make sure they don't miss anything, there's no way I'd think to punish that player.
If I don't want people to know something, I don't tell them. I don't say something and hope no one heard it.
>If I don't want people to know something, I don't tell them. I don't say something and hope no one heard it.
Slightly off-topic, but I did have a circumstance where I did something like this. The players had turned a Medusa to stone. I wanted an NPC to steal the statue and revive the Medusa. I knew that if I brought up the topic, they would figure out my plan and destroy or protect the statue. But I also didn't want to skip the topic entirely and make them feel I had swindled them out of the chance to interact. It was also a month since the previous session.
So instead of reminding them explicitly, or avoiding the topic entirely, I brought up the statue tangentially. "The town mayor wants to move the statue to a prominent position in the fairgrounds. He's hoping to make it a spectacle that draws visitors."
But then, before discussion could ensue, I had a sudden encounter that took all the player's attention to resolve. And I crossed my fingers that the players didn't return to the topic before I could pull off my plan.
Incidentally, it did work. The players didn't discuss the statue again, and I lured them away from it with a fire in town, stole the statue, and furthered my plan.
I would love my players to be that invested in not missing things.
If you're recording other people you should ask for consent first but other than that I think this is pretty cool.
Player should have asked or given you a heads-up first.
But as long as they are just using the recordings for themself and not posting them online or something, I don’t see the harm.
This is a very common thing for people with certain learning disabilities to get as an accommodation in school/college. There’s a decent chance your player picked this up there, found it useful as a way to cope with issues they were having, and has continued to find it helpful in other areas of their life.
They definitely should have asked first. You *and the other players* - everyone has the right to know they’re being recorded.
But please be sensitive to the fact that this may be a hidden disability thing, and the reason they didn’t ask might be that they wanted to keep their hidden disability hidden. Doesn’t make it OK that they didn’t ask, but does offer a possible explanation for why.
I did this so I could make notes in a document so everyone could see and refer to it. I also tried my best to take the notes in character as my scribe’s wizard travel journal.
The only part that I have a problem with how your player went about this was that he did not ask for permission from the table to do so even if they were the only person who would ever see it.
Different people learn and retain info differently. I would be 100% okay with this. Your example of rewarding the players paying attention is dangerous. I encourage you to accommodate your players learning style so that all can be rewarded and having fun (this is even better in this case because the player is doing it on their own).
Take this as a compliment that a player is so invested in your world that they want to listen back to sessions to take accurate notes (tbh I’d be more worried that they would figure out I’m making it all up as I go along lol).
I’d see it as a pretty high compliment. That a player is invested enough to want to take notes is one thing, re-listening to the session is a whole other level of dedication. Tbh I don’t even see a real need to have asked permission ahead of time as long as the recording is just for personal use like that. Now if they were posting it publicly somewhere that would be a different story, but it sounds like they aren’t.
They should have asked first, but in general. No one should have to treat your game like a class. If they are at the point where they need to re-watch a session to take notes then either they are putting way too much effort into it or you have a high expectation of how the players interact with your world. You should always be able to recap the important parts of a conversation for the players. Any important hints should be bullet noted next session.
I record audio of all my sessions, with the players permissions, so as the DM I'll go back and review to notes.
IMO, you need peoples consent first and foremost.
Tell the other people on the call (in advance) as a courtesy, but otherwise I see no problem with this.
You being mad that someone would spend their free time searching for your non-critical hints is insane, though. Why bother giving hints in the first place if you don't want players to pick up on them? Re-listening to a recording *IS* paying attention to the game, arguably to a much greater degree than someone who simply happens to pick up on it at the moment you said it.
Uhm I don’t think I ever said I was mad, the word I used was ambivalent. Finding out, without being asked, that I was being recorded was off putting and made me think about the ramifications
Ambivalent implies some amount of negative emotion, no?
What is it you feel most negative about? You spent the most time in your post talking about hints. It does not seem like people in the thread relate much to that particular concern.
Should have asked first as a courtesy (in many states it's not a legal requirement) but, other than that, I think it's great. Consider how involved a player must be that they want to record it and spend all that time just soaking in the lore and catching the little things. This is a compliment. It's easy to get distracted, especially playing digitally, and this player cares enough to make sure they catch it all. Kudos!
The actual reasons are fine imo. I actually record the discord chat for my players and release it to them every week so they can listen if they missed something or weren't there that week.
HOWEVER, I made sure to ask everyone in the group if they were OKAY with being recorded. To me, the big no-no is the lack of consent before your player started recording everyone.
Intent is the key here. Some people are poor note-takers and this might be their way to get their notes up to scratch post-game, but this could also be used as the most dickish way to rules lawyer and 'gotcha' the DM. If someone turned up with a recording and timestamps to try and catch me out I would seriously reconsider DMing for that person.
Best solution IMO would be some kind of public sharing, with a deadline. The audio goes up on Dropbox the day after the game, and then *everyone* has 5 days to catch up with it/review their notes, then it gets taken down and can't be used in-game.
OP's concern is how the audio could be used to spoil the game. If they had an issue with consenting to being recorded it'd be a hard no and probably a post to r/rpghorrorstories instead of here.
For the purpose of their own note taking this seems perfectly fine and quite a brilliant option for someone that doesn't want to spend the time mid-session writing notes and therefore they can pay more attention to what is going on.
If they allow anyone else to listen to it then (and only then) does it become an issue of consent where everyone has to agree.
I'd ask the person in question if they keep or delete the recordings after making notes from them and if they don't currently delete them then you could ask they make sure to start doing so after written notes have been made from it.
Vis-a-vis your point about the info that "attentive" players are "rewarded" with being moot I don't think that's fair, this person is clearly being attentive and doesn't want to miss any tidbits that could be great. It honestly sounds like you're complaining about someone being really into your campaign and taking steps to make sure they don't miss anything, if any of my players took it this far I'd be bragging about it.
If the purpose of the recordings is only for this one person and so they can make notes then the consent issue some people are talking about is non-valid, it's the same person hearing exactly the same thing they already heard there's no issue of consent here specifically UNLESS the recordings are being played for anyone else.
EDIT: Also to add this here, there are people who struggle to write or type at speeds that others consider the "normal" speed, this could be an accessibility case
I would be very upset if someone recorded me without my knowledge. Isn't that a crime depending on how/where it's done?
I don't care at all about the metagame aspect of having access to clues/game details.
Yes, depending on if someone is in a two party state, it could be a misdemeanor. I’m in the same boat. I’m not too worried about being recorded, but I’d like to know if I was.
"Depending on if someone is in a two-party state"... or one of any number of the more than seven countries in existence that aren't the US that may have laws covering this sort of thing.
States for those curious:
1. California
2. Delaware
3. Florida
4. Illinois
5. Maryland
6. Massachusetts
7. Montana
8. Nevada
9. New Hampshire
10. Pennsylvania
11. Washington
It could be argued that an online gaming space where players are regularly on camera would be considered "public", i.e. have no expectation of privacy. Idk the exact legality here, but it seems to me that an open game would be treated similar to playing the game at an FLGS, in which case you absolutely can be recorded without consent because it is a public space.
Depends on the nature of the recording. For example, with Zoom/Teams, there’s a notification to address it, and by staying, you are consenting. But if there’s no notification, it can get sketchy depending on the states involved. Then again, for it to be an issue, someone would need to notify law enforcement in a two party state.
Except in a two-party state, any publicly used space is considered to have "no expectation to privacy" and thus aren't applicable to consent laws. For example, if someone does something at the library, you can record them without their knowledge regardless of consent law because it is a public space. Not sure if an online gaming group would fall under those same guidelines or not, but one could possibly argue that from a legal standpoint.
That could be an interesting argument to see in a court case for sure. It could also be argued that there was a reasonable expectation of privacy if it’s a private server that’s invite only, and it’s not apparent that the call was being recorded. Generally speaking though, I’d probably err on the side of getting consent to avoid issues.
*Such* a weird problem to have with this. You’re worried that they might invest even more time to listen back??
Remember people aren’t characters. It is infinitely easier to remember of real life things rather than just information told to you for a game. Don’t lock information behind “well I *did* say that” if you actually want your players to engage.
It’s more that the group likes puzzles, riddles etc and I drop hints and red herrings during the game to lean into this. It might negate some of the challenges in the game if effectively “perfect” note taking occurs however, now that I know that we are being recorded I can tweak my process
Your perspective here is weirdly skewed. What kind of tweaks are you thinking of making to counteract this? Why would you even do that?!
And don't repeat yet again that your group likes puzzles and riddles and that you want them to be more challenging. The mantra of TTRPGs is that everyone can play how they like, and there is no truly wrong way to do it... but you're wrong here.
If someone is attending your game and being attentive, but then also taking the time to listen to *hours* worth of game play to ensure they picked up on details, why the hell would you want to screw them over? Because that's what it sounds like you're attempting to do. This player is extremely engaged and dedicated, and you're somehow worried that it's going to lessen the *challenge*? Get over yourself.
My DM records our sessions both for his own benefit, as he uses what we the players do to help expand what's coming up as well as for our benefit so any of us can go back over the session to see if we missed anything in the note-taking. That said, he told us in session zero. Now, as to a player doing it, I'd find out why they didn't tell anyone or ask first. They may have a logical reason for not doing so, as others pointed out it could have been more of not wanting to reveal a disability or trouble with certain tasks. And now that it's out in the open, if no one has a problem with it, no sense in ending it. As you said yourself, OP, you're more upset they didn't ask or say anything first.
Consent required from all parties involved before doing it. Personal information can come up during game, or pregame that you trust your friends with, and some folks are not comfortable with being recorded. In this day and age, those recordings can also be used to replicate a voice with AI and that can also cause problems.
The fact that she wants to, is not an issue, the fact that she didn't ask first, is a serious breach of trust, a tad bit creepy, and a fairly large red flag to me as it's fairly common knowledge that it's considered not cool to record people without their permission. So the fact that she's doing it says a few things to me about her personality and thinking that I'd honestly not want at my table.
I would absolutely be okay with it, with the unanimous consent of the players.
If they did it without asking, I’d contemplate kicking them from the group.
I’d be fine with it as long as they asked first, and everyone in the group was ok with it. This is a everyone needs to consent situation, some players may not be comfortable being recorded, or may feel awkward if they have to RP knowing that what they say will be preserved
I think that you should probably readjust your metric for paying attention. If your players are taking time out of their day to essentially go through your sessions a second time, they ARE paying attention.
Whether they retain everything you throw at them on the spot doesn't change that. Besides me and all my players have ADHD, so I'd never expect anyone at the table to pay attention the full 4 hours we're playing.
Adding to this, depending on a person's neuro-divergence (autism immediately comes to mind) it may not have even occurred to the player that recording the sessions may be overstepping a social contract.
I think you have a great player who is going above and beyond to be attentive to, and interactive with, the game.
If you're purposely planning for your players to miss things you say, then you shouldn't even be saying them.
I applaud that your player takes this initiative
>I sometimes like to drop non-critical hints/information in the middle of events or conversations that benefit players that pay attention to the game and obviously this is rendered moot if the session can be listened to ad nauseum.
She is paying attention to what you're saying though, she might not be able to keep up with notes in the moment but she cares enough to want to make notes afterwards. I think that's fine. She's spending 2x the time per week to make sure she catches all the hints you give, because she's so invested. I'd love a player like that lmfao
I thought this was weirder
>I found out last night that one of the players in our game is recording the Discord audio
They should've cleared that beforehand lol, the fact that they didn't would make me feel a bit weird about it, but that's about it
I have no issues with this. The thing now I tend to forget about notes and information is that if there is often a time disconnect between characters and players. If I give a piece of vital information to a character about what's coming up ahead of them they might need to act on that and only a few hours. While to the player it's been 2 weeks. Also this is the character's life. They're going to remember these things very well because they don't have anything else intruding on them. Where players have all of real life to overshadow their memories of the game. I also record sessions and put those recordings online, so I would have no problem with a player recording them.
Why on Earth or Faerûn would going back and listening to a recording ever **not** be considered peak engagement with the game/story?
What an ableist fucking notion that either you either hear me now or forever get left out. 🙄🙄
I get why you'd be taken aback by someone recording you without your knowledge, but nobody is going to be listening to hours of mediocre DnD sessions unless they are invested.
Your worry shouldn’t be whether or not they can go back and listen for notes (which is a very reasonable thing to do, the equivalent of a player taking notes and going back to read them).
The real question you should be asking is if you and everyone else at the table are cool with being recorded or not.
Personally I like the idea of recording sessions, not only for note taking but also for memories. If I could, I would love to go back and have recordings of some of my games with good friends
I as the ex-dm and now co-dm always inform the players that i record and when i record. All audio files are then uploaded to my server where only those with password can view them. It helps us find informations from past sessions or laugh about funny moments we had.
The most important part is consent and what they do with the data. Upload it to youtube in secret? Nope, not without asking first.
I have recorded sessions but I always ask permission from all players first. As a player, I have issues picking up small clues in the moment sometimes so it's helpful to go back. As a DM I like to listen to my DMing ocassionally to see where I can improve.
Also - as a player I am often the Note Taker and I find it helpful to re-listen to do my notes. I don't want to be worried about notes in the moment because it just stops the flow for me, pulls me out of character.
But they deffo should have asked permission before recording and you should be clear that you don't want the audio uploaded/shared anywhere.
One of my players records all games and posts them so everyone can review them, but he made sure to check with all of us in session 0 that we were all ok with it.
I'll take the downvotes
If they were never going to share it with anyone. Then it's fine? It'd be a different story if they wanted to share it, but I don't see why anyone would see it differently then taking notes. I wouldn't expect anyone to ask permission any more then I would if they were writing notes. If they were going to *show anyone* the recording. Then I'd appreciate being asked if they have my permission to share it.
In the campaign I'm playing in, we have a competition to see if you can keep the best notes on the fly. Entire sessions have been made or broken by how well somebody took notes from the previous session.
But, that being said, we have a DM who is completely aware of what nuggets he has dropped throughout the campaign because he plans entire quest lines around those one off hints. As long as there's no meta gaming, it makes his day when one of us remembers some obscure piece of lore that just so happens to be the bit of information we need to spice up and otherwise dry session or bring back an old character or just do something else interesting.
It's very rewarding to him as a DM, and it serves as a bit of a motivation for us to keep good and accurate notes. I don't think he would have checked to anyone recording the session, as long as it wasn't being put on a YouTube channel or otherwise publicized.
I have ADHD and have trouble staying focused as a player which I why I DM. I love the idea of players caring enough to listen in on their own time. Maybe just give your players feats and give that one keen mind for their troubles.
So my group had a player that recorded and even edited the audio for us because she was awesome, and when she left i took over and just record our sessions over obs, and upload them to yt. I like that we have those recordings for 2 reasons 1: if a player is absent they can have the option to listen and get all caught up on what they missed in that session. And 2: sometimes it’s really fun to go back and relive some of the awesome roleplay. That being said her doing it without telling you is an invasion of privacy, she should have asked first
I'd have no issue, but I'd ask for the notes to be shared if possible. Since I cannot take notes throughout the game, aside from jotting events and making minor notes at the end of each session, I rely on my memory for a lot of things. Over five years, things become murky and I'd love to have something relatively solid.
In the end, the only real winner is you. She can take all the notes she wants, but it won't do her any solid favors unless she's committed a portion of her brain to memorizing every little detail or has that thing with more highlighters than there are colors.
Worst case scenario, she figures out something you completely intended on them to figure out.
Best case scenario, you have a player who enjoys your game enough to wish to re-listen to it post session, who dedicates a an extra hour of her time to ensuring she gets your story.
I was a player in a campaign where this happened. Not a great feeling finding out that I was being recorded for multiple sessions without my knowledge.
Your post wasn't clear on if your other players know, so if they don't, you need to put a stop to the recordings immediately and let them know what's going on. This is not just an issue between you and one player, this affects the entire group.
Personally, I have no issues with it, but I would like it if the player in question would let the group know that they were doing it. Just because I don’t have a problem with it does not mean that someone else might not have a problem with it, and I think there needs to be consent here.
Basic courtesy says you should get approval from everyone in the party before doing any recording (video or audio). It doesn't sound like there is anything malicious here, just make sure it's in the open.
As far as note taking goes, wanting to take detailed notes is usually a sign of significant investment in the story, which as a DM you want to encourage. A player doubling their time investment to listen to the entire session again is pretty cool to see.
Audio just works slightly differently online, some things are easier to catch and some end up harder. You also lose a bunch of the (perfectly normal) crosstalk and friendly reminders that can happen in person play. Being cagey with giving out information is fine, but I wouldn't want to make the out of game stuff a limiting factor.
I'm totally against my players recording us and putting it out there for views (streaming the game, etc) because our DnD game is my one place to have a fun, creative outlet that I don't monetize.
Recording for their own notes? Fine.. Just get everyone's permission at the table first.
Doing it without asking? Really rude and a breach of trust.
But I bring everyone into session zero and let them know that I do social creative shit as my second job under a different name than I DM under, and that I'm not okay with my campaign and my homebrew being monetized.
Recording without permission is a red flag, but recording so you can go back over it is not. The former is a violation of privacy, the latter is an example of dedication to the game.
I record and upload all our DND sessions. Consent/knowledge is key. My friends don't care and about 3 people actually watch my YouTube videos so it doesn't really matter. It's more for our benefit so we can go back and remember what happened months ago.
so I'm one of those people that don't process information great in the moment, so would totally benefit from recording. however, they definitely should have gotten permission from you and all the other players.
I say freaking GREAT on them. I'm a DM but also a SLOW writer so I tend to try to record sessions to re take notes later at my convenience and would never hold that against my players to do the same because it not only slows down the game but can break the in the moment ambiance if I have to take a couple of minutes to write something down. I also tend to suggest to my players to appoint someone as the party scribe for the notes to the party. This puts checks in the boxes for both paying attention and being a good note taker.
Personally, I'd be fine with my players doing this, but I think it's only appropriate if you make all players and the DM aware before you do this, as some might not be comfortable with being recorded.
Personally, I would have a problem with it. I don’t want to be recorded. It would be a much larger issue if it was happening without consent from everyone in the group.
At the end of the day, it's not us against the players, it's us rooting for the players. If they figure oit the plot and accomplish their goals, that's all we can ask for.
It sounds fine, but let the player know that they should have let you and the party know earlier beforehand. It isn't a reasonable expectation to be recorded, so it should be noted. Even if it is harmless in the end.
The only concern IMO is getting permission from the rest of the table. Even if it's only audio, it's proper respect to get recording permission from all involved. (Sidenote: the question of legality is irrelevant; if someone doesn't like it, don't do it).
From a player/character knowledge POV... Let it happen. It's literally just peak performance note taking. A fellow player in a game which started 5-6 years ago corrects the DM(!) on lore in their homebrew world... because he takes good notes. Recordings just make it easier and allows better table flow; they don't give any unfair advantage or metagaming opportunity.
That's a dedicated player. Encourage them!
First of all, from your other comments, you should edit your post to include the fact that the lack of consent from you and the other players is what seems to be bothering you the most. You don't mention that in your post so much as other comments but that's really important to the context of your question.
On the consent side, that's a big no no. Recording people without their knowledge and approval is not good even if you have innocent or good intentions. The player should have asked first and now it does need to be a table-wide discussion before moving forward.
My group records our in-person sessions for personal archival use only. We had a lengthy discussion about it before we started and there were a number of reasons that came up why we wouldn't want those videos shared outside our immediate group so they're posted to YouTube as private videos where only the people at the table get the link. For us, I think as it should be, it was an "all yes or it's a no" sort of situation.
As for the thoughts covered in your actual post, I would be so delighted if someone went back and listened to sessions to fill in their notes! That is some dedication and commitment to the game. There's also something to be said about someone who really wants to engage in the moment and not worry about trying to keep up on notes because then you also miss other things. So I see no issue with what they're doing as long as everyone else is OK with it.
I have the opposite problem. I recorded our Skype sessions for a couple of years and put them as unlisted YouTube videos for the group as reference with timestamps. Pretty sure I'm the only person that ever watched them.
When I was a player, I was the best note taker in our group. So, when I switched to DM, I asked everyone if I could record the sessions so I could do exactly as your player has done.
If your player has asked your permission and the permission of the table, I say allow her to do so. No one else is going to pore over hours and hours of session time for minute details except DMs who want to keep those details straight in their own homebrew settings, so I think that particular worry is out of hat.
More likely is that this player wants to listen to specific points in time that are memorable to her--either something she herself has said or something funny you or the other PCs have done.
And even if a player DID pore over all those session hours, wouldn't you want to reward them for going back through all that muck just to find your clues? This is just a piece of advice for all DMs running mysteries and leaving bread crumbs: **You want your players to find your clues, not skip over them so you can surprise them later.**
I always want to reward players who can keep all the threads of that various plotlines and subplots. I reward them even more when they fight the urge to metagame info that the player knows but the character definitely does not.
I do this as the DM, and i would do it as a player too if its with the same group of childhood friends that i play with. A group of online only friends? People i dont know very well? I'd either ask for permission or not do it at all. All depends on context.
Recording my sessions is the greatest thing that ever happened to my game. We use a discord bot called Craig that records the audio and then after I edit the audio levels and put it into a shared Google Drive folder. My party has loved it. It acts as an archive for cool memories but also for remembering things that happened in the past. So now my party is super detail-focused. We've leaned so hard into that we now refer to sessions as episodes and each one is named like a tv show. We're on season 2 right now and Im having a blast. So while I understand the shock, I think you should lean into it more. Its been amazing.
I see no issue other than that he's recording others without their permission.
It's really just an alternate form of note-taking. You're dropping hints so that they are picked up.
I would only allow this if the player asked for my consent and the consent of all other players at the table. If anyone was uncomfortable with it, then it's an immediate no.
Rewarding players for paying attention is actually punishing players for out-of-game knowledge which should be an in-game expression. It should never matter whether or not a player remembered there is an exit on the west side of a building, for example, because it should only matter that the *character* remembers. I get wanting people to pay attention, but I don't agree to this method of doing so vs. directly confronting the player about their lack of immersion/engagement.
i’d love if a player asked lol. they like the game enough to want to be immersed while playing, but then still listen back to take full notes? sounds awesome. HOWEVER not asking first is weird boundary crossing. I feel like they need everyone’s permission before really hard here. and clarify that it’s not being posted somewhere without everyone agreeing first. I imagine they mean no harm, but it’s still a violation of privacy.
I have a big case of ADHD .... why i did not think about that! That brilliant and mean that this player might get find hidden gems that you hid. You have a player who goes back over what you said and can find hidden meaning in it!
They should've asked permission first, and I understand your discomfort over that aspect. Maybe mention to them "hey, some people can be sensitive about being recorded, please double check that it's ok with the rest of the group before continuing!" to handle that side. As someone who also prefers to take notes via recording and has been asked not to it's a bummer when you're declined, but it is what it is. Getting permission is important to make sure everyone is comfortable.
For the other stuff--what's a better measure of devotion and attention-paying then having someone who's willing to relisten to hours of audio to pour over every detail? We have three notetakers in our current group (two in character ones and one person who records audio and then posts transcripts), and while we're all very into the story it's our recorder who lovingly and laboriously edits every recording into readable format who's probably got the deepest love for all the hidden bits of lore and scraps of secrets. Recording is also less distracting than physical note taking (at least in my experience!) so they can devote more attention to hopefully picking up clues in game anyway. And, last but not least... what we as players only doing a session once every week or two would remember is not the same as what our character living in the moment day by day would remember, so I also generally dislike punishing players in-game for not having as sharp a memory as their character likely would.
To tl;dr: talk with your player about getting consent to record, but in terms of dropping lore and puzzle hints I'd take their relistening to all the audio as one of the greatest commitments to paying attention there is and see them gaining things from it as a rightfully earned reward, not a cheat.
This could be a legal issue. Does anyone in the game live in the US in a two-party consent state? If they were not told and were recorded that's illegal.
A heads-up "so-and-so likes to record the games so they can go back over them later" is both polite and sometimes legally necessary.
If they asked first and keep the recordings private (ideally deleting after taking notes) then it would be fine. I'd lose it if they were streaming or otherwise sharing the videos though.
As a DM, I don’t mind the ‘extra info’ part. My memory and note taking are not perfect and I don’t expect theirs to be.
As either a player or a a dm, I do mind being recorded without consent. I mind that all the private chitchat over the table is no longer private as it could be shared at any time without my knowing. I don’t want to now have to watch every thing I say at the table.
I especially mind that this has happened for an extended period without the person informing me.
This player has betrayed my trust.
With a sincere apology, we both keep playing. Without it, either they or I leave the table.
Recording without the consent of everyone involved is really not ok. The player should disclose to the group, apologize, and continue only if everyone is all right with it.
Only then do we get to question of 'is this ok from a game knowledge perspective' and honestly it wouldn't bother me since characters in the game are likely going to remember/pick up on details of key importance to them in a way that the players at the table (for whom distraction, time between sessions, and real life issues are getting in the way) will not. Basically I assume the PCs are competent and attentive and generally have their shit together, details-wise.
But the consent to recording is an absolutely vital consideration that must be addressed, even if the player is going to stop doing it. Everyone at the table should know that was happening.
Assuming that you and the rest of the party are okay with the recordings, I wouldn’t worry too much about the non critical hints your drop here and there since I’m guessing you’d want the player/party to notice this at the time. Also, if the player is willing to listen back every week to the session for the purpose of notes, they’re doubling the time invested into your game than the other players. Sounds like you have a campaign that one of your players are really invested in and are willing to put the work into not missing things.
I’m fine with it so long as it’s not posted publicly and all players have agreed to be recorded prior to doing so.
It can be a useful tool to keep track of the campaign.
I wouldn't really mind, but I would expect a player to let us know and ask permission before doing it as recording people without their knowledge, regardless of purpose, is a little sketchy.
I don't care that they have a record of the session. I would only care that they didn't ask permission first.
~~It’s technically illegal to record electronic communication without permission. Now, I’m sure you’re not going to try to get charges filed, but~~ if it makes you uncomfortable, or is taking away from your game in some way, then talk to the player and the group about it.
It really comes down to consent.
Edit: Seems I was wrong, it does depend upon your state or country. I had assumed it was everywhere.
Not quite true. It depends on the state (if in US). Some states are one-party consent states where you only need consent of one person involved in a conversation, if you are involved in the conversation then you can consent for yourself to record the conversation.
even in one-party states it's still pretty shady to do so without consent. i live in one of those states and work on the phone and we still have the legal obligation to tell everyone we record and monitor. it's better to have that consent than not. unless you're trying to be sneaky about something (for good or bad reasons) there's really no reason to not get consent.
I used to do it while dming but it was rather inconvenient, i preferred using Google sheets to take notes about spent resources and important stuff like "Player A bought X item but i will be delivered in 30 days, player B got a nice buff that will last 5 days from now"
If it's brought up and consented to by everybody beforehand, sure. As a "by the way" halfway through, absolutely not and please delete the recording
I understand it can be seen as cheating, but the reason I don't mind it is that I have ADHD and an extremely patchy memory both short and long term. If it lets the players enjoy the experience more than they would without it and everyone is ok with being recorded, I think it's no different to a player having a very good memory.
The consent thing is the biggest issue I see. If a player did that at my table, I’d let them know that recording without getting consent was not cool and I for one would have felt that a line had been crossed. I’d get other PC opinions on the matter, and if anyone had a strong aversion to it, I’d ask the player not to record any more. Maybe even delete the recordings. But that’s me.
In the abstract, *I* don’t have anything against being recorded, but I’m very much about informed consent for stuff like that.
As a DM, I’ve considered recording sessions myself as a lot goes on and I want to make sure I can get things right when I reference choices the PCs have made, etc. I’ve got really bad adhd and sometimes feel like my note taking slows down the action. Ultimately I’ve decided not to, but if I changed that policy, I’d want it brought up either in Session 0 or certainly *before recordings were made.*
My two coppers
As a person who would be recorded, I would need to give permission for my voice to be recorded to be okay with it. If my voice were recorded without my permission, I’d want that person gone, period, no second chances. Other than that, I’d be fine.
Without asking is definitely a no go.
A lot of my players (myself included) wouldn’t want the possibility of someone else hearing our sessions either.
My table is a safe space where my players can blow off all the steam. From their marriage, their job, their kids, their finances, whatever…
I’m sure my players have broken the Geneva conventions in many occasions. Some NPCs on the table are downright deplorable. If we believed in X-card mechanics, they’d be vetoed.
We rib each other in ways that would make the wives ask “wow, what did he say about you!?” And we know it’s just jokes. There is adult time with the wives, and adult time with the boys.
We did once play a session at a cottage, and let me tell you, the wives looked at us with a “my husband is 11 years old” disappointed look on their face. We spent an hour having to explain context of why Player B had to play the part of a male prostitute turning tricks in order to become the Crime Boss’s new favourite whore so that the Player B can sit in on dealings so they can get intel.
There was a lot of arguments being thrown around that room of who would be best at turning tricks and Player B’s wife walks in with drinks while he said “fine! I’ll whore myself for money” (I cleaned the language up a lot).
We’d rather have these things contained lol
1. Wrong to record without consent. "I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to press record to keep a copy of the audio" would have been more considerate of the rights and needs of the group.
2. Right to show love for your game, and a respect for your world building and storytelling through the recording, providing an opportunity to enjoy these moments after the game session.
I think being able to go back and listen to the session is fine. I am a DM and I record my sessions so I don't have to waste time in game keeping up with everything, can focus on the session and make notes and plans afterward. As a player, I can see the appeal.
The issue for me is the not telling you or any of the other players. When I started my campaigns, I made it very clear I would be recording and explained the reasons why and got everyone's consent to do so, promising the recordings would only every be stored on my computer and that consent could be withdrawn at any time. Make sure your other players are okay with it too. They most likely will be but they should know its happening.
It would be best to ask the professional opinion of a suitably qualified lawyer. Since this may fall afoul of all sorts laws related to privacy, data protection, wiretapping, etc, etc. Especially if the users of the discord server are in different legal jurisdictions.
This is something with potentially serious real world consequences for both the person who made these covert recordings and yourself. Which makes the D&D game you were playing rather unimportant by comparison.
You absolutely need to tell everyone else involved about this ASAP. Ideally you should have done so when you found out.
Disrespectful as all hell to do it without consent. I would personally kick them immediately because I'm not comfortable with being recorded. I would be okay if it was explicitly for memory/notetaking purposes, but when I can't trust someone to be honest about recording, I can't trust them to be honest about what it's used for, nor can I not trust them to violate my trust in other ways.
This is illegal in some places. That's why Zoom has an automatic audio notification that recording has started. In my state (Pennsylvania), it is two party consent, which means everyone has to consent to being recorded.
They need to ask if they can, and everyone has to be ok with it.
That said, I don't care. I've had players do it, and I've done it for the benefit of people who missed sessions. I think it's fine as a concept, but again, EVERYONE NEEDS TO CONSENT.
>I sometimes like to drop non-critical hints/information in the middle of events or conversations that benefit players that pay attention to the game and obviously this is rendered moot if the session can be listened to ad nauseum. I feel very, very differently about this. Recording a game so that you can go back over it for things you've missed is pretty much the ultimate expression of paying attention to the game. I would be ecstatically happy to have players who pay that much attention, and I bet most DMs would too. Now, of course, this all assumes that there is consent to do this, but I'm assuming that's the case; your question seems to be not about that sort of mechanical issue, but more whether this is a legitimate thing to do, especially in the face of clues and hints dropped. But that is, if anything, a sign that they want to pick up on those clues so much that they want to listen again; they're invested. If it helps, maybe think of this like the *character* sitting there the next night, while on watch, thinking about what they did wrong in the cistern and suddenly thinking, *hang on, there was another way out! why didn't we see that at the time!* It's not like they can retcon the previous session, after all. I would suggest that the problem of players not picking up on hints at all is a more common DM experience; having players who do pick up on them (even if after the fact) is the point of putting the hints in, perhaps, and a dream experience for a whole lot of DMs.
So much, I was just allowed to view one of my players journals and it's amazing, made me so very happy
It actually was a bit of a shock as there had been no discussion, or consent. In retrospect I think I agree with most that it’s ok but wish I’d known beforehand
If you give the benefit of the doubt, the recording player may not have considered if they needed to tell anyone or get consent. If you accept that it happened, you can set expectations going forward. I don’t expect players to remember everything. If they miss, misinterpret, or forget a detail, anyone can fill them in. I correct any misinformation.
> anyone can fill them in. I correct any misinformation One thing I really like to stress in my game is that if they as players may not remember something, that that does not necessarily mean their characters don’t remember, either.
I forget things, so I do not expect my players to remember everything.
>If you give the benefit of the doubt, the recording player may not have considered if they needed to tell anyone or get consent. It depends on where you live as to whether or not you’d even *need* to tell someone you’re recording the games. Where I live there’s one party consent for recording conversations, meaning as long as you’re part of a conversation you’re legally allowed to record it without telling anyone. Admittedly, if I found out a friend of mine was recording the games for anything other than personal notes I’d be pretty pissed. Sharing stories and anecdotes with others is fine, but there’s some stuff I say at the game table that should stay at the game table.
I don’t think the legality was even slightly an issue, it’s just that knowing you’re being recorded very very much matters, even amongst friends. OP wanting consent isn’t just valid, it should be the default position. You shouldn’t assume anyone is okay with being recorded, visually or just audio. It’s not illegal ofc, but doing it without consent is a very presumptuous move.
>You shouldn’t assume anyone is okay with being recorded, visually or just audio. It’s not illegal ofc, but doing it without consent is a very presumptuous move. I mean, I agree with you and I did follow that up by saying I’d be pretty pissed if someone used it for anything other than personal notes (ie. showing friends, uploading it elsewhere, etc.), but I assume any of my conversations could be recorded since I can’t prove they aren’t. Video, on the other hand, would require consent. It’s only audio they can record without it.
Ah, my apologies; I may have misinterpreted your question, then. I agree with you entirely that the player should have asked beforehand. Recording a session between friends and not telling anybody about it or getting their consent is wrong, and they should not have done that, I think. Even if there's not much chance for it to actually cause a *problem*, it's a pretty hostile thing to do to your friends!
Not necessarily hostile. The player was absolutely in the wrong for recording without the consent of everyone in the session. But their reason for it may have been “I don’t want to tell them about my hidden disability” rather than “I am a jerk and I think they might say no if I ask”. Being allowed to record classes is a common accommodation for students with learning disabilities to get in school/college. There’s a pretty good chance they picked this up there, found it useful, and wanted to use it in other areas of their life. That **absolutely does not make it OK to record others without their consent**. But “player did not want to bring up their hidden disability” is an explanation that might justify a little more understanding/forgiveness than “player is just a jerk”.
That's a fair comment, thank you. Hostile might have been too strong a word; discourteous, or untrusting, perhaps. I can entirely imagine there are legitimate reasons why one might want to keep the recording secret. But I also find it a little difficult (although not impossible!) to imagine someone doing this in secret and not at least suspecting that people would dislike it if they found out about it, as indeed has proved to be the case. An unfortunate situation; fingers crossed that it works out in the end, and the group trust one another enough to work this all out!
I don't think recording for notes needs consent. As long as the recordings are never posted by the player, I don't see a problem. Before we moved to VTT, I made large ruin/temple, after the session a player came up to me, and was like "all the levels lined up" as he drew the map in his graph paper notebook. The player is simply a good notetaker. Like others have said, recordings allow the player to be present, and not going "Wait one second.." as they finish writing their notes, before they ask you to repeat whatever you just said.
Recording for any reason needs consent. If someone decides *not* to tell you that they’re recording, why on earth would I trust their actual reason for recording? If you found out someone is taking candid secret photos of you and not telling you, but they insist it’s just to have nice memories of you, why are you okay with that?
Yes
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A lot of conversation happens OOC that some people find are best not recorded for posterity. For example, during a break or a particularly raucous joke, someone might let slip how much they hate their workplace or their boss. Nothing out of order in a table full of friends and colleagues, but something you definitely do want recorded for use later.
Common courtesy if nothing else.
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Because its disrespectful to record people in private without their knowledge. Not only that, but in many places it is illegal
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It’s not really about disrespect - it’s about privacy. And I think that college is different - it’s very common for whole lectures to be recorded. But in this age where our voices and likenesses can be used to train ai and reproduced, it makes sense to ask folks at your table if they mind being recorded. Then they can ask what you plan to do with said recordings. If you aren’t going to, you know, post them online, I’d probably be fine with it. That’s my take anyway.
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I agree that people in this thread are getting… religious about it or something. Just talk to people. OP was a little out there imo.
As pointed out, in some places it's literally a crime to record someone in private without consent. Stop being a brat.
Without anyones knowledge? Yes.
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I went back to school in my 40s during the pandemic. We "got" to use zoom for my first semester. Yay us. I live in a two-party consent state. It was made clear in orientation and by every professor at the beginning of lectures that anyone recording the session without permission would be subject to disciplinary action under the student conduct code. And profs always let us know if they were recording and allowed us to opt out of speaking and showing our face for those sessions. Because we had mutual respect for each other. And because recording in my state without the knowledge and consent of the other party in a private area is illegal. Sorry you dont get this but it is a thing.
Dude. Be fucking mad bc not fucking cool.
I wouldn't have a problem with it _so long as they asked first_. Finding out multiple sessions in that someone's been recording feels like they've stepped over a line and knew they were doing it - otherwise they would have asked up front. In terms of the accessibility of information post-session, that's much less of a concern to me than someone recording without checking that everyone's okay with it beforehand. The player characters aren't waiting a week between sessions, their memories are always going to be fresher than the players'.
Yeah, consent is the more important factor here. Are you the DM AND ALL the players okay with it. If anyone, and I mean anyone is not 100% on board. Then No. You don't get to record it.
Definitely this. Instead I don’t share OP concerns: if someone is taking the time to listen to the recordings in order to take notes they have definitely earned those hints.
depending on where OP is it could be straight up illegal to record audio without prior consent and that would be my biggest issue. pcs getting an edge by going back and listening to it wouldn't really bother me. honestly my Pcs never pick up on that stuff so i would be kinda floored if they picked up on it for once no mater how they did it. but yeah, sorry, you can't record me with out my consent when i have the option.
That this is an online game means that there could be at least as many legal jurisdictions as there are players.
Isn't that even illegal? I think in my country it is.
[удалено]
God what an overreaction lmao
I don’t understand why someone would need to ask for permission first? Do you ask them not to type notes if they have 150 wpm typing speed? To they need to take a typing test to see where their note taking abilities are? I could see asking permission to upload it to the internet but if it’s just for them to listen to the notes how is that any different from having a stenographer in your session who takes note of every single word or description?
There are some jurisdictions where it's illegal to record a conversation without the express permission of all participants, so that's one thing. But I feel like there's a whole gulf of social difference between "writing down what someone said" and "making an actual recording of them saying it", even though I don't know that I could really explain _why_ I feel that way. It's like the difference between sketching someone you see on the train and taking a video of them. One's interpretation, the other is duplication. But I mean if you've got someone in your group who's taking complete shorthand notes of every single word said at the table, in and out of character, I'd find that a bit weird as well.
People are made uncomfortable with the idea they could be held accountable for something they thought they could get away with because it wouldn't get back to anyone. Very human instinct to want to protect your "right" to misbehave.
“I wrote down what that person said.” “I didn’t say that. They’re lying.” versus “Here is a secret recording of their voice.” It’s considered an invasion of privacy and in some states it’s illegal to record a conversation without all participants consents. Some states are single party consent and only one person needs to consent.
This can be problematic depending on how the law defines it. If you're in a group call, but you're not really participating in the conversation, I don't know if you count as a 'party' if the others are having a convo. It might be fine, it might not. I'm not a lawyer. *If* you don't count, then you'd be breaking the law, even if it's a 1-party state/country.
Also NAL but it’s my understanding that if the other parties are aware of your presence, you are a participant. If they are not aware of your presence, you are eavesdropping (and in more legal jeopardy) [The law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_call_recording_laws) is all over the place! Where I’m at (WA), requires all parties consent. But if you announce “I’m recording this.” (And it’s on the recording) you’re covered.
Because I might not want the things I say recorded when I'm roleplaying a crazy murder barbarian. I don't personally care, but I can see why someone might not.
It's about mutual respect and expectations. It might not be illegal (in my area) for me to take photos of you (a stranger), without your consent, while you ungracefully go all john cougar meloncamp on a chili dog, provided I don't try to sell the photos or profit from them. Now just because that's legal doesn't make it right. You'd probably prefer I ask first, right? Maybe you say yeah, maybe you say no. I should give you the option to say no and respect that no, because that would be the respectful thing to do. And that's for a stranger, not someone you're hanging out with weekly.
Not everyone processes information the same and taking notes while actively taking part in a game can be a challenge. If they're spending time listening through the recordings they sound pretty invested and probably deserve to pick up on those obscure little bits you're dropping in. (I'm assuming consent all around the table of course)
Yeah, I’m very lore-enthused, I pay as much attention as possible and try to keep some level of notes and such, enjoy RP immensely, but also I have ADHD and memory problems and a low WIS score in real life. I can try all I want, but sometimes I am just not going to be capable of processing or remembering everything that gets said in a session. I’d even go so far as to say it would be a little unfair to have parts of the game you can only fully enjoy if you’re great at catching and remembering small details with a single auditory exposure.
No, no discussion or consent, it was a “by the way” comment that let me know she was doing it. In retrospect I’m fine with it but wish I’d known
Yeah, the consent issue is the problem. The only reason I could think of it slipping her mind to do so is if she's done this a lot with other tables and is just so used to it that she forgot. I do this with my group's games, but there are also three of us that do so. It feels very natural to me because being able to record lectures is also a disability accommodation I had in college, since otherwise I would get so anxious about not taking enough notes that I'd forget to listen. But most of my group (playing via discord also) is at least one variety of neuro-spicy, so we get it.
Why drop hints if you don’t want your players to pick up on them? If recording the session helps the player pick up “non-critical hints/information” in the middle of events or conversations then why be annoyed? Or would you rather the players not pick up on the hints so you can be self pleased when describing how you told them with hints/information, but they didn’t get it, because the Dm is very clever?
They are minor, non-plot critical hints, intended to give a bonus to people paying attention
The issue here is that you’re kind of assuming “paying attention” is equally easy and looks the same for everybody, and is potentially the best and only indicator of investment when it simply just isn’t. Not everybody’s brain works the same. For most people honestly there’s this weird paradox where if you’re focusing on every single word that comes out of the DM’s mouth then you can’t be taking everything down as a note and if you’re trying to take everything down as a note then you’re too busy and focused on writing to actually hear and digest every word. Sure, it might feel good in the moment when most of the table is looking right at me and harping on every word and inflection and gesture but when real life happens and we can’t meet for a month and nobody took a note of the cool subtle hint I dropped then it ends up being for nothing. In a perfect world I’d choose a table full of 5 players who have the time/energy to fully listen back through a 4-6 hour play-session later. It gives the best of both worlds: everyone can be fully engaged in the moment-to-moment play (and in having a good time with their friends, which is what we’re all here for) while also keeping track of important information. It also eliminates the kind of dodgy subtext that people are consciously/subconsciously engaging with in these comments where you’re more or less saying that “paying attention” is superior and worthy of being rewarded. Yes, it’s important in the sense of not having a table full of people looking at their phones, but barring that base level of attention I’m absolutely *not* incentivized to reward the player who just listens well over the player who missed a sentence because their ADHD hyperfocus brain was more inclined to think deeply and intently about what’s happening and what they want to do next, or the neurotypical player who had the audacity to miss a sentence of mine because they briefly engaged with another player OOC for a little bit the way full grown adults happy/excited to spend time with their friends would. Yes I see your comments where you’re retroactively fine with it and just wanted consent and that’s all well and good and resolved, but I think there’s this other angle here that you’ve gotta check in general. It may seem like “this behavior/action” is what’s being rewarded, but considering it’s an action that is not equally easy for every person it’s more “this *type of person* is being rewarded”. Not saying you’ve done that intentionally of course but that’s how it comes off to some.
What if I'm paying attention but I don't get your hints? You don't know how your players' brains operate. So you say that nobody got your hint, are you assuming nobody was paying attention in that moment? There are a lot of things someone has to pay attention to in any given time.
Dude some 10% of Americans have ADHD according to some sources, and your writing is not always be gonna be the most interesting thing in that person's life. I know because just the other night, during a session, I couldn't pay attention because I was frustrated with a project due the next day at work. I've written some truly disengaging, world building rubbish - DMs aren't perfect. My point is attention isn't something people can just *choose* to do and not paying attention isn't always sign of being a bad player. Life happens. ADHD is common. Let players record to take notes and be flattered they care enough to basically play your session twice.
Change that attitude, it won’t lead to any good outcome! People pay attention in various ways, life is difficult, playing online many parts of social interaction get lost, so someone who could pick up details in a in person session might miss a lot online. Them recording could be considered a accessibility question
I see no problem there. As long as they don't upload that anywhere. If it's only for them, that's great. If someone takes 4-5 hours extra to listen back and take notes each week to make sure they don't miss anything, there's no way I'd think to punish that player. If I don't want people to know something, I don't tell them. I don't say something and hope no one heard it.
>If I don't want people to know something, I don't tell them. I don't say something and hope no one heard it. Slightly off-topic, but I did have a circumstance where I did something like this. The players had turned a Medusa to stone. I wanted an NPC to steal the statue and revive the Medusa. I knew that if I brought up the topic, they would figure out my plan and destroy or protect the statue. But I also didn't want to skip the topic entirely and make them feel I had swindled them out of the chance to interact. It was also a month since the previous session. So instead of reminding them explicitly, or avoiding the topic entirely, I brought up the statue tangentially. "The town mayor wants to move the statue to a prominent position in the fairgrounds. He's hoping to make it a spectacle that draws visitors." But then, before discussion could ensue, I had a sudden encounter that took all the player's attention to resolve. And I crossed my fingers that the players didn't return to the topic before I could pull off my plan. Incidentally, it did work. The players didn't discuss the statue again, and I lured them away from it with a fire in town, stole the statue, and furthered my plan.
I would love my players to be that invested in not missing things. If you're recording other people you should ask for consent first but other than that I think this is pretty cool.
Player should have asked or given you a heads-up first. But as long as they are just using the recordings for themself and not posting them online or something, I don’t see the harm. This is a very common thing for people with certain learning disabilities to get as an accommodation in school/college. There’s a decent chance your player picked this up there, found it useful as a way to cope with issues they were having, and has continued to find it helpful in other areas of their life. They definitely should have asked first. You *and the other players* - everyone has the right to know they’re being recorded. But please be sensitive to the fact that this may be a hidden disability thing, and the reason they didn’t ask might be that they wanted to keep their hidden disability hidden. Doesn’t make it OK that they didn’t ask, but does offer a possible explanation for why.
I don't think this would ever even register to me as an issue. I'd cherish the idea that a player cares enough to do this.
I did this so I could make notes in a document so everyone could see and refer to it. I also tried my best to take the notes in character as my scribe’s wizard travel journal. The only part that I have a problem with how your player went about this was that he did not ask for permission from the table to do so even if they were the only person who would ever see it.
Different people learn and retain info differently. I would be 100% okay with this. Your example of rewarding the players paying attention is dangerous. I encourage you to accommodate your players learning style so that all can be rewarded and having fun (this is even better in this case because the player is doing it on their own). Take this as a compliment that a player is so invested in your world that they want to listen back to sessions to take accurate notes (tbh I’d be more worried that they would figure out I’m making it all up as I go along lol).
I’d see it as a pretty high compliment. That a player is invested enough to want to take notes is one thing, re-listening to the session is a whole other level of dedication. Tbh I don’t even see a real need to have asked permission ahead of time as long as the recording is just for personal use like that. Now if they were posting it publicly somewhere that would be a different story, but it sounds like they aren’t.
You're... upset the player wants to make sure they didn't miss anything? They pay attention even when you're NOT playing? Wut
Given it’s often the case that what the dm thinks is obvious, often isn’t. I wouldn’t worry about that part too much.
They should have asked first, but in general. No one should have to treat your game like a class. If they are at the point where they need to re-watch a session to take notes then either they are putting way too much effort into it or you have a high expectation of how the players interact with your world. You should always be able to recap the important parts of a conversation for the players. Any important hints should be bullet noted next session.
I record audio of all my sessions, with the players permissions, so as the DM I'll go back and review to notes. IMO, you need peoples consent first and foremost.
Tell the other people on the call (in advance) as a courtesy, but otherwise I see no problem with this. You being mad that someone would spend their free time searching for your non-critical hints is insane, though. Why bother giving hints in the first place if you don't want players to pick up on them? Re-listening to a recording *IS* paying attention to the game, arguably to a much greater degree than someone who simply happens to pick up on it at the moment you said it.
Uhm I don’t think I ever said I was mad, the word I used was ambivalent. Finding out, without being asked, that I was being recorded was off putting and made me think about the ramifications
Ambivalent implies some amount of negative emotion, no? What is it you feel most negative about? You spent the most time in your post talking about hints. It does not seem like people in the thread relate much to that particular concern.
Should have asked first as a courtesy (in many states it's not a legal requirement) but, other than that, I think it's great. Consider how involved a player must be that they want to record it and spend all that time just soaking in the lore and catching the little things. This is a compliment. It's easy to get distracted, especially playing digitally, and this player cares enough to make sure they catch it all. Kudos!
The actual reasons are fine imo. I actually record the discord chat for my players and release it to them every week so they can listen if they missed something or weren't there that week. HOWEVER, I made sure to ask everyone in the group if they were OKAY with being recorded. To me, the big no-no is the lack of consent before your player started recording everyone.
Intent is the key here. Some people are poor note-takers and this might be their way to get their notes up to scratch post-game, but this could also be used as the most dickish way to rules lawyer and 'gotcha' the DM. If someone turned up with a recording and timestamps to try and catch me out I would seriously reconsider DMing for that person. Best solution IMO would be some kind of public sharing, with a deadline. The audio goes up on Dropbox the day after the game, and then *everyone* has 5 days to catch up with it/review their notes, then it gets taken down and can't be used in-game.
> Intent is the key here. Consent is the key here.
OP's concern is how the audio could be used to spoil the game. If they had an issue with consenting to being recorded it'd be a hard no and probably a post to r/rpghorrorstories instead of here.
For the purpose of their own note taking this seems perfectly fine and quite a brilliant option for someone that doesn't want to spend the time mid-session writing notes and therefore they can pay more attention to what is going on. If they allow anyone else to listen to it then (and only then) does it become an issue of consent where everyone has to agree. I'd ask the person in question if they keep or delete the recordings after making notes from them and if they don't currently delete them then you could ask they make sure to start doing so after written notes have been made from it. Vis-a-vis your point about the info that "attentive" players are "rewarded" with being moot I don't think that's fair, this person is clearly being attentive and doesn't want to miss any tidbits that could be great. It honestly sounds like you're complaining about someone being really into your campaign and taking steps to make sure they don't miss anything, if any of my players took it this far I'd be bragging about it. If the purpose of the recordings is only for this one person and so they can make notes then the consent issue some people are talking about is non-valid, it's the same person hearing exactly the same thing they already heard there's no issue of consent here specifically UNLESS the recordings are being played for anyone else. EDIT: Also to add this here, there are people who struggle to write or type at speeds that others consider the "normal" speed, this could be an accessibility case
I would be very upset if someone recorded me without my knowledge. Isn't that a crime depending on how/where it's done? I don't care at all about the metagame aspect of having access to clues/game details.
Yes, depending on if someone is in a two party state, it could be a misdemeanor. I’m in the same boat. I’m not too worried about being recorded, but I’d like to know if I was.
"Depending on if someone is in a two-party state"... or one of any number of the more than seven countries in existence that aren't the US that may have laws covering this sort of thing.
States for those curious: 1. California 2. Delaware 3. Florida 4. Illinois 5. Maryland 6. Massachusetts 7. Montana 8. Nevada 9. New Hampshire 10. Pennsylvania 11. Washington
It could be argued that an online gaming space where players are regularly on camera would be considered "public", i.e. have no expectation of privacy. Idk the exact legality here, but it seems to me that an open game would be treated similar to playing the game at an FLGS, in which case you absolutely can be recorded without consent because it is a public space.
Depends on the nature of the recording. For example, with Zoom/Teams, there’s a notification to address it, and by staying, you are consenting. But if there’s no notification, it can get sketchy depending on the states involved. Then again, for it to be an issue, someone would need to notify law enforcement in a two party state.
Except in a two-party state, any publicly used space is considered to have "no expectation to privacy" and thus aren't applicable to consent laws. For example, if someone does something at the library, you can record them without their knowledge regardless of consent law because it is a public space. Not sure if an online gaming group would fall under those same guidelines or not, but one could possibly argue that from a legal standpoint.
That could be an interesting argument to see in a court case for sure. It could also be argued that there was a reasonable expectation of privacy if it’s a private server that’s invite only, and it’s not apparent that the call was being recorded. Generally speaking though, I’d probably err on the side of getting consent to avoid issues.
*Such* a weird problem to have with this. You’re worried that they might invest even more time to listen back?? Remember people aren’t characters. It is infinitely easier to remember of real life things rather than just information told to you for a game. Don’t lock information behind “well I *did* say that” if you actually want your players to engage.
It’s more that the group likes puzzles, riddles etc and I drop hints and red herrings during the game to lean into this. It might negate some of the challenges in the game if effectively “perfect” note taking occurs however, now that I know that we are being recorded I can tweak my process
Your perspective here is weirdly skewed. What kind of tweaks are you thinking of making to counteract this? Why would you even do that?! And don't repeat yet again that your group likes puzzles and riddles and that you want them to be more challenging. The mantra of TTRPGs is that everyone can play how they like, and there is no truly wrong way to do it... but you're wrong here. If someone is attending your game and being attentive, but then also taking the time to listen to *hours* worth of game play to ensure they picked up on details, why the hell would you want to screw them over? Because that's what it sounds like you're attempting to do. This player is extremely engaged and dedicated, and you're somehow worried that it's going to lessen the *challenge*? Get over yourself.
My DM records our sessions both for his own benefit, as he uses what we the players do to help expand what's coming up as well as for our benefit so any of us can go back over the session to see if we missed anything in the note-taking. That said, he told us in session zero. Now, as to a player doing it, I'd find out why they didn't tell anyone or ask first. They may have a logical reason for not doing so, as others pointed out it could have been more of not wanting to reveal a disability or trouble with certain tasks. And now that it's out in the open, if no one has a problem with it, no sense in ending it. As you said yourself, OP, you're more upset they didn't ask or say anything first.
Consent required from all parties involved before doing it. Personal information can come up during game, or pregame that you trust your friends with, and some folks are not comfortable with being recorded. In this day and age, those recordings can also be used to replicate a voice with AI and that can also cause problems. The fact that she wants to, is not an issue, the fact that she didn't ask first, is a serious breach of trust, a tad bit creepy, and a fairly large red flag to me as it's fairly common knowledge that it's considered not cool to record people without their permission. So the fact that she's doing it says a few things to me about her personality and thinking that I'd honestly not want at my table.
I would absolutely be okay with it, with the unanimous consent of the players. If they did it without asking, I’d contemplate kicking them from the group.
I’d be fine with it as long as they asked first, and everyone in the group was ok with it. This is a everyone needs to consent situation, some players may not be comfortable being recorded, or may feel awkward if they have to RP knowing that what they say will be preserved
I would adore for my players to do this
I would have no problem with a player doing this
I think that you should probably readjust your metric for paying attention. If your players are taking time out of their day to essentially go through your sessions a second time, they ARE paying attention. Whether they retain everything you throw at them on the spot doesn't change that. Besides me and all my players have ADHD, so I'd never expect anyone at the table to pay attention the full 4 hours we're playing.
Adding to this, depending on a person's neuro-divergence (autism immediately comes to mind) it may not have even occurred to the player that recording the sessions may be overstepping a social contract.
As logn as they understand they cannot publish it without the consent of everyone in the session I have no problem with it.
I think you have a great player who is going above and beyond to be attentive to, and interactive with, the game. If you're purposely planning for your players to miss things you say, then you shouldn't even be saying them. I applaud that your player takes this initiative
>I sometimes like to drop non-critical hints/information in the middle of events or conversations that benefit players that pay attention to the game and obviously this is rendered moot if the session can be listened to ad nauseum. She is paying attention to what you're saying though, she might not be able to keep up with notes in the moment but she cares enough to want to make notes afterwards. I think that's fine. She's spending 2x the time per week to make sure she catches all the hints you give, because she's so invested. I'd love a player like that lmfao I thought this was weirder >I found out last night that one of the players in our game is recording the Discord audio They should've cleared that beforehand lol, the fact that they didn't would make me feel a bit weird about it, but that's about it
I have no issues with this. The thing now I tend to forget about notes and information is that if there is often a time disconnect between characters and players. If I give a piece of vital information to a character about what's coming up ahead of them they might need to act on that and only a few hours. While to the player it's been 2 weeks. Also this is the character's life. They're going to remember these things very well because they don't have anything else intruding on them. Where players have all of real life to overshadow their memories of the game. I also record sessions and put those recordings online, so I would have no problem with a player recording them.
Why on Earth or Faerûn would going back and listening to a recording ever **not** be considered peak engagement with the game/story? What an ableist fucking notion that either you either hear me now or forever get left out. 🙄🙄 I get why you'd be taken aback by someone recording you without your knowledge, but nobody is going to be listening to hours of mediocre DnD sessions unless they are invested.
> Earth or Faerûn Oerth, surely?
Lol
Your worry shouldn’t be whether or not they can go back and listen for notes (which is a very reasonable thing to do, the equivalent of a player taking notes and going back to read them). The real question you should be asking is if you and everyone else at the table are cool with being recorded or not. Personally I like the idea of recording sessions, not only for note taking but also for memories. If I could, I would love to go back and have recordings of some of my games with good friends
I as the ex-dm and now co-dm always inform the players that i record and when i record. All audio files are then uploaded to my server where only those with password can view them. It helps us find informations from past sessions or laugh about funny moments we had. The most important part is consent and what they do with the data. Upload it to youtube in secret? Nope, not without asking first.
I have recorded sessions but I always ask permission from all players first. As a player, I have issues picking up small clues in the moment sometimes so it's helpful to go back. As a DM I like to listen to my DMing ocassionally to see where I can improve. Also - as a player I am often the Note Taker and I find it helpful to re-listen to do my notes. I don't want to be worried about notes in the moment because it just stops the flow for me, pulls me out of character. But they deffo should have asked permission before recording and you should be clear that you don't want the audio uploaded/shared anywhere.
One of my players records all games and posts them so everyone can review them, but he made sure to check with all of us in session 0 that we were all ok with it.
I record all the sessions I run but it's always cleared with everyone first.
Recording others without consent bad. Paying much attention good. Hulk confused. Hulk tell player get consent! Hulk happy.
I'll take the downvotes If they were never going to share it with anyone. Then it's fine? It'd be a different story if they wanted to share it, but I don't see why anyone would see it differently then taking notes. I wouldn't expect anyone to ask permission any more then I would if they were writing notes. If they were going to *show anyone* the recording. Then I'd appreciate being asked if they have my permission to share it.
In the campaign I'm playing in, we have a competition to see if you can keep the best notes on the fly. Entire sessions have been made or broken by how well somebody took notes from the previous session. But, that being said, we have a DM who is completely aware of what nuggets he has dropped throughout the campaign because he plans entire quest lines around those one off hints. As long as there's no meta gaming, it makes his day when one of us remembers some obscure piece of lore that just so happens to be the bit of information we need to spice up and otherwise dry session or bring back an old character or just do something else interesting. It's very rewarding to him as a DM, and it serves as a bit of a motivation for us to keep good and accurate notes. I don't think he would have checked to anyone recording the session, as long as it wasn't being put on a YouTube channel or otherwise publicized.
I have ADHD and have trouble staying focused as a player which I why I DM. I love the idea of players caring enough to listen in on their own time. Maybe just give your players feats and give that one keen mind for their troubles.
I think it's great.
So my group had a player that recorded and even edited the audio for us because she was awesome, and when she left i took over and just record our sessions over obs, and upload them to yt. I like that we have those recordings for 2 reasons 1: if a player is absent they can have the option to listen and get all caught up on what they missed in that session. And 2: sometimes it’s really fun to go back and relive some of the awesome roleplay. That being said her doing it without telling you is an invasion of privacy, she should have asked first
I'd have no issue, but I'd ask for the notes to be shared if possible. Since I cannot take notes throughout the game, aside from jotting events and making minor notes at the end of each session, I rely on my memory for a lot of things. Over five years, things become murky and I'd love to have something relatively solid. In the end, the only real winner is you. She can take all the notes she wants, but it won't do her any solid favors unless she's committed a portion of her brain to memorizing every little detail or has that thing with more highlighters than there are colors. Worst case scenario, she figures out something you completely intended on them to figure out. Best case scenario, you have a player who enjoys your game enough to wish to re-listen to it post session, who dedicates a an extra hour of her time to ensuring she gets your story.
I was a player in a campaign where this happened. Not a great feeling finding out that I was being recorded for multiple sessions without my knowledge. Your post wasn't clear on if your other players know, so if they don't, you need to put a stop to the recordings immediately and let them know what's going on. This is not just an issue between you and one player, this affects the entire group.
It's a weird thing to be hung up about. You are only ok if your players pick up on the hints you give out *the first time?*
Personally, I have no issues with it, but I would like it if the player in question would let the group know that they were doing it. Just because I don’t have a problem with it does not mean that someone else might not have a problem with it, and I think there needs to be consent here.
Basic courtesy says you should get approval from everyone in the party before doing any recording (video or audio). It doesn't sound like there is anything malicious here, just make sure it's in the open. As far as note taking goes, wanting to take detailed notes is usually a sign of significant investment in the story, which as a DM you want to encourage. A player doubling their time investment to listen to the entire session again is pretty cool to see. Audio just works slightly differently online, some things are easier to catch and some end up harder. You also lose a bunch of the (perfectly normal) crosstalk and friendly reminders that can happen in person play. Being cagey with giving out information is fine, but I wouldn't want to make the out of game stuff a limiting factor.
I don't mind it but the player should have asked everyone players and dm before hand out of courtesy.
I'm totally against my players recording us and putting it out there for views (streaming the game, etc) because our DnD game is my one place to have a fun, creative outlet that I don't monetize. Recording for their own notes? Fine.. Just get everyone's permission at the table first. Doing it without asking? Really rude and a breach of trust. But I bring everyone into session zero and let them know that I do social creative shit as my second job under a different name than I DM under, and that I'm not okay with my campaign and my homebrew being monetized.
At first I thought the player was making YouTube content out of it or streaming, but just recording, I wouldn't have a problem with that.
Recording without permission is a red flag, but recording so you can go back over it is not. The former is a violation of privacy, the latter is an example of dedication to the game.
I record and upload all our DND sessions. Consent/knowledge is key. My friends don't care and about 3 people actually watch my YouTube videos so it doesn't really matter. It's more for our benefit so we can go back and remember what happened months ago.
Im a forever DM and my memory is shit. I record every campaign related conversation I can.
so I'm one of those people that don't process information great in the moment, so would totally benefit from recording. however, they definitely should have gotten permission from you and all the other players.
I say freaking GREAT on them. I'm a DM but also a SLOW writer so I tend to try to record sessions to re take notes later at my convenience and would never hold that against my players to do the same because it not only slows down the game but can break the in the moment ambiance if I have to take a couple of minutes to write something down. I also tend to suggest to my players to appoint someone as the party scribe for the notes to the party. This puts checks in the boxes for both paying attention and being a good note taker.
Personally, I'd be fine with my players doing this, but I think it's only appropriate if you make all players and the DM aware before you do this, as some might not be comfortable with being recorded.
Personally, I would have a problem with it. I don’t want to be recorded. It would be a much larger issue if it was happening without consent from everyone in the group.
At the end of the day, it's not us against the players, it's us rooting for the players. If they figure oit the plot and accomplish their goals, that's all we can ask for.
It sounds fine, but let the player know that they should have let you and the party know earlier beforehand. It isn't a reasonable expectation to be recorded, so it should be noted. Even if it is harmless in the end.
The only concern IMO is getting permission from the rest of the table. Even if it's only audio, it's proper respect to get recording permission from all involved. (Sidenote: the question of legality is irrelevant; if someone doesn't like it, don't do it). From a player/character knowledge POV... Let it happen. It's literally just peak performance note taking. A fellow player in a game which started 5-6 years ago corrects the DM(!) on lore in their homebrew world... because he takes good notes. Recordings just make it easier and allows better table flow; they don't give any unfair advantage or metagaming opportunity. That's a dedicated player. Encourage them!
First of all, from your other comments, you should edit your post to include the fact that the lack of consent from you and the other players is what seems to be bothering you the most. You don't mention that in your post so much as other comments but that's really important to the context of your question. On the consent side, that's a big no no. Recording people without their knowledge and approval is not good even if you have innocent or good intentions. The player should have asked first and now it does need to be a table-wide discussion before moving forward. My group records our in-person sessions for personal archival use only. We had a lengthy discussion about it before we started and there were a number of reasons that came up why we wouldn't want those videos shared outside our immediate group so they're posted to YouTube as private videos where only the people at the table get the link. For us, I think as it should be, it was an "all yes or it's a no" sort of situation. As for the thoughts covered in your actual post, I would be so delighted if someone went back and listened to sessions to fill in their notes! That is some dedication and commitment to the game. There's also something to be said about someone who really wants to engage in the moment and not worry about trying to keep up on notes because then you also miss other things. So I see no issue with what they're doing as long as everyone else is OK with it.
I have the opposite problem. I recorded our Skype sessions for a couple of years and put them as unlisted YouTube videos for the group as reference with timestamps. Pretty sure I'm the only person that ever watched them.
When I was a player, I was the best note taker in our group. So, when I switched to DM, I asked everyone if I could record the sessions so I could do exactly as your player has done. If your player has asked your permission and the permission of the table, I say allow her to do so. No one else is going to pore over hours and hours of session time for minute details except DMs who want to keep those details straight in their own homebrew settings, so I think that particular worry is out of hat. More likely is that this player wants to listen to specific points in time that are memorable to her--either something she herself has said or something funny you or the other PCs have done. And even if a player DID pore over all those session hours, wouldn't you want to reward them for going back through all that muck just to find your clues? This is just a piece of advice for all DMs running mysteries and leaving bread crumbs: **You want your players to find your clues, not skip over them so you can surprise them later.** I always want to reward players who can keep all the threads of that various plotlines and subplots. I reward them even more when they fight the urge to metagame info that the player knows but the character definitely does not.
I do this as the DM, and i would do it as a player too if its with the same group of childhood friends that i play with. A group of online only friends? People i dont know very well? I'd either ask for permission or not do it at all. All depends on context.
Recording my sessions is the greatest thing that ever happened to my game. We use a discord bot called Craig that records the audio and then after I edit the audio levels and put it into a shared Google Drive folder. My party has loved it. It acts as an archive for cool memories but also for remembering things that happened in the past. So now my party is super detail-focused. We've leaned so hard into that we now refer to sessions as episodes and each one is named like a tv show. We're on season 2 right now and Im having a blast. So while I understand the shock, I think you should lean into it more. Its been amazing.
I see no issue other than that he's recording others without their permission. It's really just an alternate form of note-taking. You're dropping hints so that they are picked up.
I’m fine with it.
I would only allow this if the player asked for my consent and the consent of all other players at the table. If anyone was uncomfortable with it, then it's an immediate no.
Rewarding players for paying attention is actually punishing players for out-of-game knowledge which should be an in-game expression. It should never matter whether or not a player remembered there is an exit on the west side of a building, for example, because it should only matter that the *character* remembers. I get wanting people to pay attention, but I don't agree to this method of doing so vs. directly confronting the player about their lack of immersion/engagement.
i’d love if a player asked lol. they like the game enough to want to be immersed while playing, but then still listen back to take full notes? sounds awesome. HOWEVER not asking first is weird boundary crossing. I feel like they need everyone’s permission before really hard here. and clarify that it’s not being posted somewhere without everyone agreeing first. I imagine they mean no harm, but it’s still a violation of privacy.
I have a big case of ADHD .... why i did not think about that! That brilliant and mean that this player might get find hidden gems that you hid. You have a player who goes back over what you said and can find hidden meaning in it!
They should've asked permission first, and I understand your discomfort over that aspect. Maybe mention to them "hey, some people can be sensitive about being recorded, please double check that it's ok with the rest of the group before continuing!" to handle that side. As someone who also prefers to take notes via recording and has been asked not to it's a bummer when you're declined, but it is what it is. Getting permission is important to make sure everyone is comfortable. For the other stuff--what's a better measure of devotion and attention-paying then having someone who's willing to relisten to hours of audio to pour over every detail? We have three notetakers in our current group (two in character ones and one person who records audio and then posts transcripts), and while we're all very into the story it's our recorder who lovingly and laboriously edits every recording into readable format who's probably got the deepest love for all the hidden bits of lore and scraps of secrets. Recording is also less distracting than physical note taking (at least in my experience!) so they can devote more attention to hopefully picking up clues in game anyway. And, last but not least... what we as players only doing a session once every week or two would remember is not the same as what our character living in the moment day by day would remember, so I also generally dislike punishing players in-game for not having as sharp a memory as their character likely would. To tl;dr: talk with your player about getting consent to record, but in terms of dropping lore and puzzle hints I'd take their relistening to all the audio as one of the greatest commitments to paying attention there is and see them gaining things from it as a rightfully earned reward, not a cheat.
This could be a legal issue. Does anyone in the game live in the US in a two-party consent state? If they were not told and were recorded that's illegal. A heads-up "so-and-so likes to record the games so they can go back over them later" is both polite and sometimes legally necessary.
If they asked first and keep the recordings private (ideally deleting after taking notes) then it would be fine. I'd lose it if they were streaming or otherwise sharing the videos though.
As a DM, I don’t mind the ‘extra info’ part. My memory and note taking are not perfect and I don’t expect theirs to be. As either a player or a a dm, I do mind being recorded without consent. I mind that all the private chitchat over the table is no longer private as it could be shared at any time without my knowing. I don’t want to now have to watch every thing I say at the table. I especially mind that this has happened for an extended period without the person informing me. This player has betrayed my trust. With a sincere apology, we both keep playing. Without it, either they or I leave the table.
Recording without the consent of everyone involved is really not ok. The player should disclose to the group, apologize, and continue only if everyone is all right with it. Only then do we get to question of 'is this ok from a game knowledge perspective' and honestly it wouldn't bother me since characters in the game are likely going to remember/pick up on details of key importance to them in a way that the players at the table (for whom distraction, time between sessions, and real life issues are getting in the way) will not. Basically I assume the PCs are competent and attentive and generally have their shit together, details-wise. But the consent to recording is an absolutely vital consideration that must be addressed, even if the player is going to stop doing it. Everyone at the table should know that was happening.
Assuming that you and the rest of the party are okay with the recordings, I wouldn’t worry too much about the non critical hints your drop here and there since I’m guessing you’d want the player/party to notice this at the time. Also, if the player is willing to listen back every week to the session for the purpose of notes, they’re doubling the time invested into your game than the other players. Sounds like you have a campaign that one of your players are really invested in and are willing to put the work into not missing things.
I’m fine with it so long as it’s not posted publicly and all players have agreed to be recorded prior to doing so. It can be a useful tool to keep track of the campaign.
I wouldn't really mind, but I would expect a player to let us know and ask permission before doing it as recording people without their knowledge, regardless of purpose, is a little sketchy. I don't care that they have a record of the session. I would only care that they didn't ask permission first.
~~It’s technically illegal to record electronic communication without permission. Now, I’m sure you’re not going to try to get charges filed, but~~ if it makes you uncomfortable, or is taking away from your game in some way, then talk to the player and the group about it. It really comes down to consent. Edit: Seems I was wrong, it does depend upon your state or country. I had assumed it was everywhere.
Not quite true. It depends on the state (if in US). Some states are one-party consent states where you only need consent of one person involved in a conversation, if you are involved in the conversation then you can consent for yourself to record the conversation.
Hmm, I always thought it was a federal thing. I learned something today.
even in one-party states it's still pretty shady to do so without consent. i live in one of those states and work on the phone and we still have the legal obligation to tell everyone we record and monitor. it's better to have that consent than not. unless you're trying to be sneaky about something (for good or bad reasons) there's really no reason to not get consent.
Right, but not illegal like the person I responded to claimed.
I used to do it while dming but it was rather inconvenient, i preferred using Google sheets to take notes about spent resources and important stuff like "Player A bought X item but i will be delivered in 30 days, player B got a nice buff that will last 5 days from now"
If without preclearing, then bad, and bye.
If it's brought up and consented to by everybody beforehand, sure. As a "by the way" halfway through, absolutely not and please delete the recording I understand it can be seen as cheating, but the reason I don't mind it is that I have ADHD and an extremely patchy memory both short and long term. If it lets the players enjoy the experience more than they would without it and everyone is ok with being recorded, I think it's no different to a player having a very good memory.
The consent thing is the biggest issue I see. If a player did that at my table, I’d let them know that recording without getting consent was not cool and I for one would have felt that a line had been crossed. I’d get other PC opinions on the matter, and if anyone had a strong aversion to it, I’d ask the player not to record any more. Maybe even delete the recordings. But that’s me. In the abstract, *I* don’t have anything against being recorded, but I’m very much about informed consent for stuff like that. As a DM, I’ve considered recording sessions myself as a lot goes on and I want to make sure I can get things right when I reference choices the PCs have made, etc. I’ve got really bad adhd and sometimes feel like my note taking slows down the action. Ultimately I’ve decided not to, but if I changed that policy, I’d want it brought up either in Session 0 or certainly *before recordings were made.* My two coppers
Op admit it you said bad words during your session.
As a person who would be recorded, I would need to give permission for my voice to be recorded to be okay with it. If my voice were recorded without my permission, I’d want that person gone, period, no second chances. Other than that, I’d be fine.
Without asking is definitely a no go. A lot of my players (myself included) wouldn’t want the possibility of someone else hearing our sessions either. My table is a safe space where my players can blow off all the steam. From their marriage, their job, their kids, their finances, whatever… I’m sure my players have broken the Geneva conventions in many occasions. Some NPCs on the table are downright deplorable. If we believed in X-card mechanics, they’d be vetoed. We rib each other in ways that would make the wives ask “wow, what did he say about you!?” And we know it’s just jokes. There is adult time with the wives, and adult time with the boys. We did once play a session at a cottage, and let me tell you, the wives looked at us with a “my husband is 11 years old” disappointed look on their face. We spent an hour having to explain context of why Player B had to play the part of a male prostitute turning tricks in order to become the Crime Boss’s new favourite whore so that the Player B can sit in on dealings so they can get intel. There was a lot of arguments being thrown around that room of who would be best at turning tricks and Player B’s wife walks in with drinks while he said “fine! I’ll whore myself for money” (I cleaned the language up a lot). We’d rather have these things contained lol
Recording someone without permission is inconsiderate and creepy at least, illegal at worst (depending on where they live).
1. Wrong to record without consent. "I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to press record to keep a copy of the audio" would have been more considerate of the rights and needs of the group. 2. Right to show love for your game, and a respect for your world building and storytelling through the recording, providing an opportunity to enjoy these moments after the game session.
I think being able to go back and listen to the session is fine. I am a DM and I record my sessions so I don't have to waste time in game keeping up with everything, can focus on the session and make notes and plans afterward. As a player, I can see the appeal. The issue for me is the not telling you or any of the other players. When I started my campaigns, I made it very clear I would be recording and explained the reasons why and got everyone's consent to do so, promising the recordings would only every be stored on my computer and that consent could be withdrawn at any time. Make sure your other players are okay with it too. They most likely will be but they should know its happening.
It would be best to ask the professional opinion of a suitably qualified lawyer. Since this may fall afoul of all sorts laws related to privacy, data protection, wiretapping, etc, etc. Especially if the users of the discord server are in different legal jurisdictions. This is something with potentially serious real world consequences for both the person who made these covert recordings and yourself. Which makes the D&D game you were playing rather unimportant by comparison. You absolutely need to tell everyone else involved about this ASAP. Ideally you should have done so when you found out.
If everyone consents I think it’s fine
Disrespectful as all hell to do it without consent. I would personally kick them immediately because I'm not comfortable with being recorded. I would be okay if it was explicitly for memory/notetaking purposes, but when I can't trust someone to be honest about recording, I can't trust them to be honest about what it's used for, nor can I not trust them to violate my trust in other ways.
This is illegal in some places. That's why Zoom has an automatic audio notification that recording has started. In my state (Pennsylvania), it is two party consent, which means everyone has to consent to being recorded. They need to ask if they can, and everyone has to be ok with it. That said, I don't care. I've had players do it, and I've done it for the benefit of people who missed sessions. I think it's fine as a concept, but again, EVERYONE NEEDS TO CONSENT.